1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Let me take you back to the summer of a 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: pandemic is gripping the world, leading to hundreds of thousands 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: of debts in the US alone. The economy took a 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: dive and a lot of people were losing their jobs. 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: And then, unexpectedly, the daily flood of headlines turned to 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: something else, entirely a social media app called TikTok. A 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: stern rebuke from the US President, We're not going to 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: do anything to jeopardize security. White House alleges the popular 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: Chinese based apps TikTok and wheat Chat are stealing American 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: users private information, handing it to the government in Beijing. 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: We want no security problems with China. It's got to 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: be an American company. Has got to be American security 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: has got to be owned here. They have millions and 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,959 Speaker 1: millions of US US. They're probably the single most popular 15 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: social media app among people under age twenty. TikTok provided 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: an escape from the anxiety and boredom brought on by 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: the pandemic for tens of millions of Americans. Scrolling through 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: never ending feeds of dance videos and funny memes seemed 19 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: to make people feel better, and this cemented TikTok into 20 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: the mainstream in a way we haven't seen with any 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: other social media platform since Facebook. TikTok entered kind of 22 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: a golden period, but then in the span of a 23 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: few weeks, TikTok's fortunes changed. One night in late July, 24 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: the US President threatened to ban TikTok because it was 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: owned by a Chinese company that he thought was spying 26 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: on American users. That night, people on TikTok freaked out. 27 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: The app was flooded by videos of teenagers giving premature 28 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: eulogies to TikTok, talking about how special it was, how 29 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: much they relied on it, especially during the pandemic, how 30 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: sad they were. It felt like a funeral. I don't know. Okay, 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: so you know how we stopped freaking about what about 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: tiktoking literally shaking um, yeah, yeah, this might be it? 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: Well ship fuck vollowme on Instagram. I guess I know. 34 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: You guys may think it's not that big a deal, 35 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: but two creators like me and my brother and other 36 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: creators is a big deal. Getting TikTok band. You're listening 37 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: to Foundering, I'm your host, Shelley Banjo. This season will 38 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: tell you the story of TikTok, how a mysterious tech 39 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: founder from China outsmarted Facebook, YouTube and Snapchat to change 40 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: the Internet while capturing the attention of an entire generation 41 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: and becoming an obsession for the most powerful man in 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: the world. TikTok almost got wiped out in the process, 43 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: in a cautionary tale of what happens when you get 44 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: so big you wind up in the middle of a 45 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: standoff between the world's two greatest superpowers. I've been covering 46 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: TikTok for three years out of Hong Kong, China and 47 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: the US, and even though TikTok has been in the 48 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: news for a while now, I realized few people really 49 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: know the whole story. I want to tell you just 50 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: how surprising it's been. Every step has been full of 51 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: twists and turns, from TikTok's crazy rise to its run 52 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: ins with the law, to its all out battle with 53 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: Facebook and other Silicon Valley giants, all leading to the 54 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: first ever social media powerhouse to emerge from China. For 55 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: this season, you'll hear from current and former TikTok employees, investors, 56 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: and influencers about what it was really like inside the company. 57 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: You'll also hear from the CEO of TikTok's controversial Chinese 58 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: parent company, Byte Dance, in one of his only interviews 59 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: with Western media. We'll tell you more after this quick break. 60 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: To truly understand TikTok, you have to spend time with 61 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: someone like Katie Peeney. My name is Katie Heeney. I'm 62 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: seventeen years old and I've been on TikTok since musically 63 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: back in two thousand fifteen. If you haven't heard of TikTok, 64 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: TikTok is the most addicting app in the entire world. 65 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: If you get it, I'm warning you, you will be 66 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: on it for four hours just scrolling through your four 67 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: you page. Katie is a true TikTok evangelist for people 68 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: who have never been on the app before. She tried 69 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: to explain the appeal. I mean, it's like if you 70 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: were to watch a movie for an hour and a half. 71 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: I guess TikTok is like watching a movie. It's just 72 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: it's that entertaining, like you could I mean, I could 73 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: watch TikTok's longer than I could watch a movie. To 74 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: explain how TikTok became a cultural institution with tens of 75 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: billions of dollars. I want to take you back to 76 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: its roots. The app that we now know is TikTok 77 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: is actually based on a lip syncing app called music Lee. 78 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: Musically became TikTok after it was acquired in ten by 79 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: a giant Chinese tech company. It's users and design were 80 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: all absorbed into TikTok. The two apps look and feel 81 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: pretty similar. This episode will focus on the rise of 82 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: Musically and the story of its founder, a thirty six 83 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: year old guy from China who seemed to have an 84 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: uncanny understanding of American teenagers. His name is Alex Jew. 85 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: He kind of had a metal Jesus style haircut. This 86 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: just long, black, flowing hair. That's Josh Ellman. He was 87 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: one of Musically's first investors. Josh likekens Alex to an 88 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: artist or a poet. He totally looks like a poet, 89 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: like an ancient Chinese painter sitting by the side of 90 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: a river, you know, doing one of those giant scroll paintings. 91 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: Alex was a mysterious figure. He was also really hard 92 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: to pin down. Multiple people told me that when they 93 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: wanted to connect for a business deal, they literally couldn't 94 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: find him. Here's Josh introducing Alex at a conference. I 95 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, I'd love to meet up. Are you 96 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: in San Francisco maybe l A. He was like, no, 97 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: I'm in Shanghai, China, And that's where the entire team 98 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: was based on where they were, where they were building 99 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: it out, and and so I think he just has 100 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: this incredible perspective of building this company, you know from 101 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: China that you know, American teenagers are using kind of 102 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: more than anything right now, So that I'd love to 103 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: bring up Alex you. Alex was known for being kind 104 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: of out there for years before creating musically. He worked 105 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: at a big global software company and he had a 106 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: super vague job title. They called him a futurist. Futurist 107 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: songs to be a fancy job title, but actually the 108 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: job was pretty easy. What I did as a time 109 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: was quite a simple sitting in my tent, playing it 110 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: around with my small crystal ball telling the future. Futurist 111 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: is one of those wacky titles in the tech industry, 112 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: but it played right into the way Alex approached life. 113 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: Many people I spoke to told me Alex was a thinker. 114 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: His head was in the clouds. So I got really bored. 115 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: I want to walk out of my tent. I want 116 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: to be a black smith. I want to be a carpenter. 117 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: I want to be a fisherman. I want to be 118 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: a duel carpenter, blacksmith, fisherman. Alex speaks in these sort 119 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: of extended metaphors, but what he's getting at is that 120 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: he's ready to walk away from his job and start 121 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: his own company. First, Alex made an education app. He 122 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: had this idea that people could teach each other lessons 123 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: online by watching short videos that though I got a 124 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: brilliant idea, everybody can be ta true, everybody can learn 125 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: from everybody else. We spent seven months creating the first 126 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: education and finally it turned to be a very miserable 127 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: fidel and it was a failure because people didn't want 128 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: to learn that way. They mostly used their phones to 129 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: socialize or have fun. And this was the breakthrough that 130 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: led to musically the app that would one day become 131 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: TikTok In. Alex was doing a stint in the US 132 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: and living in the Bay Area. One day he was 133 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: riding the train and he sat across from a group 134 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: of teenagers. One day I was on Cultread from Mountain 135 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: View to San Francisco, and on that train so with 136 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: lots of high school students, and I was observing their behavior, 137 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: he says. Watching these teenagers good for around on their 138 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: phones gave him an epiphany. So we're listening to music 139 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: and the other they were taking videos and photos selfies. 140 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: So that give me some idea. First, entertainment is going 141 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: to be much easier the education, because education is against 142 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: the human nature, and entertainment is basically following the human nature. 143 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: Education is against human nature. This is the moment Alex 144 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: abandoned his education app and he went all in on fun. 145 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: He turned his new idea into musically in just thirty days. 146 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: It launched in July for high school students, especially in 147 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: the US, that spent laws of time on social media 148 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: and the love music to love videos, and can we 149 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: combine these very powerful elements into one platform, creating a 150 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: social network around music and around video music videos and 151 00:09:55,120 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: American teenagers. It sounds a lot like TikTok. I'm always 152 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: struck by how clear and immediate Alex's vision for the 153 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: app was. Honestly, Alex is so smart about design and 154 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: user experience and He's also so eccentric and captivating in 155 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: the way he speaks. These are the sorts of founders 156 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: that the tech industry usually loves, But Alex Ju isn't 157 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: a household name, and in fact, as TikTok grew bigger, 158 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: they even replaced him with an American CEO. You gotta 159 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: wonder if Alex wasn't from China, if he would be 160 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: more famous. For a new social platform, a new a 161 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: new social media to take off. It's about it to 162 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: have young people as an early adopter, especially the teenagers 163 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: in the US. Why they got a love time. When 164 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: we talk about musically and TikTok, now, it almost sounds 165 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: like it was an accident that so many young children 166 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: ended up on the platform. But early on Alex comes 167 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: right out and says that teenagers and even preteens were 168 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: the target audience From the get go. He understood that 169 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: teenagers would help the app grow explosively. What he didn't 170 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: realize was just how much trouble the kids would get 171 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: the company into later on, and Alex was obsessive about 172 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: seeing how young people behaved on his platform. He wasn't 173 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: just looking at data, he was looking at them. I 174 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: personally register a lot of fake accounts, right, and it 175 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: uses this fake identity to talk with the users on 176 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: the platform, comment on their videos and see why they 177 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: posted these videos, and just to try to understand them, 178 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: try to give us empathy. I want to underscore just 179 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: how unusual this is that a guy in his mid 180 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: thirties has launched fake accounts to interact with his users online. 181 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: These are mostly preteens. It sounds kind of creepy, right. 182 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: And it went beyond fake accounts. I've heard stories from 183 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: famous musically person ladies that Alex went even further. He'd 184 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: called their parents at home, He'd take them in their 185 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: families out for dinner. He was meticulous in learning everything 186 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: about them. To me, this is something really important about 187 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: the roots of musically and later TikTok. TikTok feels impulsive, fun, organic, 188 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: like this really spontaneous app where people can really be themselves. 189 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: But it's not the people who got famous, the trends 190 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: that were popular. Everything was centrally planned by Alex and 191 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: the people he hired. Here's Katie Feeney, the TikTok or 192 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: we heard from earlier. She was only twelve when she 193 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: got on Musically. Yeah. So I was very young and 194 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: my friends and I were just super excited when this 195 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: new app called Musically came out. So you would just 196 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: make fun videos, and I did a lot of dancing 197 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: videos with my dance team. It was like a big 198 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: way for us to just you know, have fun with 199 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: each other. Similar to TikTok. You would just scroll and 200 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: there was like an endless amount of videos you and 201 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: you would never get bored on it. You could just 202 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: like continuously watch for hours, and it really intrigued me 203 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: and all my friends. Katie remembers the first time one 204 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: of her videos blew up. Musically featured one of her 205 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: dance clips on its homepage. I probably started crying because 206 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: I like it was my dream to get featured, and 207 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: a little part of me kind of always wanted to 208 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: be famous, I guess you could say. So. I think 209 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: I was just in my room or something and I 210 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: was bawling. Katie was on Musically during its early days. 211 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: Back then, the app looked like a long shot to 212 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: people in the tech industry. Silicon Valley dismissed Musically as 213 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: a niche karaoke app for preteens. No one thought it 214 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: would grow to become a major cultural force. We'll be 215 00:13:49,880 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: right back in social media seemed almost locked up. Facebook 216 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: and Instagram were already so dominant, Snapchat had cornered the 217 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: teen market. Twitter had bought a video app called Vine, 218 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: which failed a few years later. Investors had been skeptical 219 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: about putting money into another social media app, but Josh Allman, 220 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: the investor we met earlier, said Musically was doing something 221 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: different because the app made it easy for anyone to 222 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: create their own videos, and then you were just seeing 223 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: regular people around the country dancing and performing and lip 224 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: syncing in ways that you know, I had never seen 225 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: that fountain of creativity, you know before, especially not in video. 226 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: And by July, about a year after it launched, Musically 227 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: had shot up to the number one spot in the 228 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: Apple App Store. It never fell out of the top forty. 229 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: Investors wanted to know who was behind it. Well, you know, 230 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: this app just came out of nowhere, and it just 231 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: became top five or something very very quickly, and all 232 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: of the son and it just really skyrocketed. So I 233 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: think a lot of vcs we're wondering, like, you know, 234 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: like who are these people? You know, where they're coming from? 235 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: That's jogilely out. She was working at a venture capital 236 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: firm at the time. Her bosses were literally trying to 237 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: give Alex money and couldn't find him. It was not straightforward. 238 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: It wasn't like another, you know, Slicon Valley based founder 239 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: of who we could find in thirty seconds to be 240 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: a LinkedIn. It was a bit more digging. It might 241 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: seem strange that people were so confused by Alex being 242 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: in China, but this is where you got to remember. 243 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley is a small, insular place. These investors would 244 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: be confused if Alex was in Ohio, so China was 245 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: almost unthinkable to them. But I've also wondered if Alex 246 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: was intentionally being coy about where he was based. I'm 247 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: not saying that Musically was overtly trying to hide their 248 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: Chinese roots, but the company clearly wasn't advertising it either. 249 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: Here's mar J Roberts, an early Musically employee. Something a 250 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: lot of people don't know are they are starting to 251 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: recognize now, is that Musically was always first and foremost 252 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: a Chinese company. Our headquarters was based in Shanghai. Inside 253 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: the company, it was clear the bosses in China were 254 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: calling the shots. No, it definitely did not feel like 255 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: an American company. Were in constant everyday contact with the 256 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: Chinese team. We very much took a lot of our 257 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: cues from the Chinese team, especially since our founders are 258 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: based there for the majority of the time. That was 259 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: so a Chinese social media company in the US raised 260 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: a few eyebrows, but it wasn't considered a geopolitical threat 261 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: the way some politicians are looking at it now. That year, 262 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: Musically opened its first US outpost in the scrappy We 263 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: work in San Francisco. Here's marj We worked in a 264 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: rework room. There was one room, yes, so we crammed 265 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: in as much as we can. That was very much 266 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: like Harry Potter in a closet. There was a lot 267 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: of urgency and excitement. Here's Jogia, who was so impressed 268 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: by Musically's rise she decided to go work for them. 269 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: You know, we were ready to kick it off our 270 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: second summer, and really it's important time because it's one 271 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: kids are out of school and they were born at home. 272 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: You know, it was a great opportunity for us to 273 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: take the grove to the next level. And that's when 274 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: the venture capitalists rushed in by Musically had raised over 275 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty million dollars from some of Silicon 276 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: Valley's biggest BC firms. It surpassed over a hundred million downloads, 277 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: and the app was a huge sensation among teenagers, even 278 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: if it was virtually unknown to adults. Here's March again. 279 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: Musically was very underground, but I discovered that gen z 280 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: knew all about it, but no one else did. So um, 281 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: I actually reached out to my knees. She's a preteen 282 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: at the time. I was like, do you know what 283 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: this app is called? Musically? And this was the moment 284 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: of truth. She literally almost had a heart attack. She's like, 285 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: oh my god, it's the biggest It's the coolest app ever. 286 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: I love it. I'm obsessed with it. I'm like, what 287 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: is going on? This was a really special moment for video. 288 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: A landslide was about to happen. Remember back then people 289 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: were just figuring out video on mobile phones. Instagram was 290 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: mostly pictures. YouTube was barely on mobile at all. Shooting 291 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: video was considered difficult and expensive, and you needed editing software, 292 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: not to mention the skills to use it. But Musically 293 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: allowed you to shoot a video and then with a 294 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: touch of a button at effects and a soundtrack. Within seconds, 295 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: you had this striking finished product to be a British stereotype. 296 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: Loves of t and gen Z took to it. You're 297 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: going to my head because I love you. So the 298 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: short form video format is very perfect for younger folks 299 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: because it requires very little attentions fan quite honestly and 300 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: I think ultimately, which is very easy to get using. 301 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 1: You know, it didn't require you to create an original 302 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: song or create, you know, an original joke. You could 303 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: get started on the platform very easily by using um 304 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: an existing clip or an existing song, because I know, 305 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: in the hell and then their team users got the 306 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: hang of it quickly, and some of them were so 307 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: good at making these entertaining short videos. They were getting 308 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: famous on the app. Thanks to all you guys on 309 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: musically for supporting me, and I hope you guys like 310 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: my EP. We would have some of our users come 311 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: in and meet the team, and they were so excited 312 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: to meet us because they thought that, you know, we 313 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: make them famous sometimes. Um So it was pretty great 314 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: just to be there, like on the ground there and 315 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: by famous, I mean just a massive number of eyeballs 316 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: were on these teen influencers, even though musically hadn't hit 317 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: the mainstream yet. They were even beating out Beyonce on Instagram. 318 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: Beyonce on Instagram posted this picture of herself announcing her 319 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: pregnancy I think um, and it had a million views 320 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: or likes in twenty four hours. The unique difference with 321 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: musically is that our everyday influencers who were not traditional 322 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: celebrities were getting three million likes in a in an hour. 323 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: And because musically was getting so big and so influential, 324 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: celebrities started to join. I remember the first big artist 325 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: on musically was Jason Darue and he was really active 326 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: forecasting from dancing in his studio. Here's pop star Jason 327 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: Derulo in one of his first videos he made for musically. 328 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: I want to do some spect I'm gonna do something 329 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: a little different. I want you to be a part 330 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: of the next music video. And all you gotta do 331 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: to be flown out to Elaine Barb, which you boy 332 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: is post a music video to musically. And then more 333 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: and more artists the camp like Selena Gomez, UM, Lady Gaga, 334 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: Katy Powery. I think Lady Gaga was probably Uh, one 335 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: of the artists I personally felt so excited about because 336 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: I loved no personality for Unique Nix. Famous musicians flocked 337 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: to the app as a new way to connect with 338 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: their fans, and users love the easy access to their 339 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 1: favorite songs. But Musically was basically stealing the music. Ja 340 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: the early employee, describes as they did it. When Musically 341 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: started out um back in UM, the company had actually 342 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: been rapping the fifteen second song clips from the iTunes review. 343 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: If you didn't hear her there, she's saying they were 344 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: ripping the songs, like literally taking the music for free 345 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: from iTunes, and so none of the music labels cared 346 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: about it about us doing this in the beginning when 347 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: we were just a small company, but then as we 348 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: got bigger over time, the music labels were basically like, 349 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: you know, we want a piece of this success. Like 350 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: many Silicon Valley startups, Musically was sort of skating around 351 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: the rules, but as they grew they had to figure 352 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: out how to work with the music industry rather than 353 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: against it. By the way, when we asked TikTok about this, 354 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: they gave us a statement TikTok places a high priority 355 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: on its work with record labels and artists. Another big 356 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: part of the app success was that it felt so personalized. 357 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: Here's Josh Shellman. You know, how do you make sure 358 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: that the feed has content that's relevant to you? You know, 359 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: if you're twenty two, you want to see different content 360 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: than somebody who's sixteen. Musically showed different people different things, 361 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: and that personalization made it incredibly engaging. But by the 362 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: same token, it also made it hard for parents to 363 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: track with their kids were doing on the app, so 364 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: it might come across damaging clips about eating disorders, while 365 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: that teenager's mom might see videos of cute puppies. Each 366 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: feed was tailored. Musically studied who you were over days 367 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: or weeks. Multiple people told me it felt like it 368 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: could read your mind, and this was intentional, according to Alex, 369 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: so we have to focus on the mechanism the invisible hands. 370 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: The invisible hands of Musically are way more controlling than 371 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: apps like Facebook or Instagram. You're not choosing what videos 372 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: you see. You don't curate your own fee. The app 373 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: chooses for you. Even though it feels care free and fun, 374 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: it's actually very deliberate. Music Lease technology was considered advanced 375 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: for its time. Behind the app. There was an engineering 376 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: team in Shanghai that was working like mad. There was 377 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: even a name for this kind of work culture in China. 378 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: It's called nine nine six meeting. These employees worked nine 379 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: am to nine pm, six days a week. To this day, 380 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: many people at TikTok still work these hours. You know, 381 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: China tends to have a nine nine six work culture um, 382 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: which is even a little bit more intense than many 383 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: startups that I know in Silicon Valley. And so the 384 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: rate at which they were just building and putting out 385 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: features and putting out new things in their creation flow 386 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: was felt phenomenally fast. With this insane workload and crazy growth, 387 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: the Musically employees could barely keep up. So the company 388 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: was kind of in this spot of like, Okay, how 389 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: do we get really big? How do we make sure 390 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: that we're a network that's here to last? And they 391 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: were struggling. They were actually struggling to higher engineers fast enough, 392 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: especially deep algorithmic engineers, because people in China weren't as 393 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: interested to work on a product they didn't use. By 394 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: the fall of people in Silicon Valley started to hear 395 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: that Musically might be willing to sell itself to a 396 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: bigger company, and one of the contenders was Facebook. Here's Josha, 397 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: a man you know. Around the same time, when there's 398 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: something with that much traction and activity, folks at Facebook 399 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: would come kind of calling me or calling others involved 400 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: with the company and saying, hey, should we get to 401 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: know the team? Is there something here? This is something 402 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: Facebook is known for. They are aggressive when it comes 403 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: to scoping out the competition. Here's my colleague Sarah Fryar. 404 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: She's been covering Facebook now for almost a decade. Facebook 405 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: takes every potential competitor extremely seriously, and TikTok in particular, 406 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: was on their radar before it was even TikTok back 407 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: when it was musically, and musically was happy to take 408 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: Facebook's call because they thought maybe Facebook could help them 409 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: get even bigger. You know, they decided, hey, look, we 410 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: should at least take the calls and get to know 411 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: the teams. Alex was not in the US that often, 412 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: so I believe at some point Facebook sent a team 413 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: over to Shanghai to visit and to talk deeply about 414 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: strategy and the numbers. But nothing ever seemed to make 415 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: sense or or came together on either side. There. Sarah says, 416 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: the Musically executives visited Facebook to the founders did come 417 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: down to Menlo Park and meet with Mark Zuckerberg and 418 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: the growth team at Facebook, and they had a few 419 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: discussions about whether it was a good idea to acquire 420 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: them and ultimately decided no. Facebook saw some red flags 421 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: they started to look at some of the downsides. Facebook 422 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: was very worried about the liability of having an audience 423 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: that wasn't verified to be over the age of thirteen, 424 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: because they worried about running a foul of child data 425 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: privacy laws. Uh. They also worried about the Chinese ownership. 426 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: Some people at Facebook that working with the Chinese company 427 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: might mean complications down the road. See Facebook had been 428 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: blocked in China since two thousand and nine, so they 429 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: knew that doing a deal with a Chinese company might 430 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: be difficult the government might not approve. In the end, 431 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: both sides walked away. Josh says that back then Facebook 432 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: didn't think Musically was a serious threat. They thought musically 433 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: super young user base wouldn't stick around that long. I 434 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: think somebody somebody once said, um, hey, look, I think 435 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: that their churn is high enough that if we just 436 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: wait a couple of years, they won't be much bigger 437 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: and we can just add those features by then. But 438 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: Facebook was wrong. Musically would go on to exceed everyone's 439 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: expectations because it would morph into TikTok and become the 440 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: biggest competitor that Facebook had ever seen. Here's Joja again, 441 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: the early Musically employee for me. I thought it was 442 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: quite amazing that a team of founders from China built 443 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: such a massive consumer social app that was used the 444 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: time by American teenagers. And I don't think the teams 445 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: at that time knew that their favorite app was may 446 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: by to two guys in China. After TikTok's power and 447 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: reach grew bigger and bigger, you gotta wonder if Facebook 448 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: regrets walking away from these negotiations. Facebook's exit left the 449 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: door open for a massive Chinese internet conglomerate to come in. 450 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: This new company would supercharge the Musically app at even 451 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: more advanced artificial intelligence, collicked even more personal data on 452 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: each of its users, and rebrand Musically as TikTok, a 453 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: social media platform that would be downloaded around the world. 454 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: That's next time on Foundering. Foundering is hosted by me 455 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: Shelley Banjo. Sean Wyn is our executive producer. Sarah Fryar, 456 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: Chipping Kwang and Kurt Wagner contributed reporting to this episode. 457 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: Raymondo is our audio engineer. Mark Million and Vander May 458 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: and Ali Sturbar are our story editors. Production help from 459 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: My Aquava, Molly Nugent and Isabel Lee. Francesco Levi is 460 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and 461 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: if you like our show, leave a review. Most importantly, 462 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: tell your friends see you next time.