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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our superproducer. All

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Speaker 1: mission control decands. Most importantly, you are you. You are here,

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Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know. This is the second part of a two

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Speaker 1: part series. We are joined again with award winning investigative journalist,

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Speaker 1: screenwriter and authored Peter Lance to continue our exploration of

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Speaker 1: the Doris Duke case. Now, folks, in our previous episode,

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Speaker 1: we learned the facts about the murder of Eduardo Terrella,

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Speaker 1: as well as the I think it's fair to say

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Speaker 1: at this point blatant continuing cover up surrounding these events,

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Speaker 1: and we ended on a cliffhanger, so we're not gonna

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Speaker 1: leave everybody hanging any any longer, right, uh, Peter, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for returning with us today to talk

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Speaker 1: about the fallout, the aftermath, the present day revelations about

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Speaker 1: the doors Duke case. We have a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: we didn't get to in part one, so we're immensely

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Speaker 1: fortunate to have you back here with us for part two. Yeah. Great. Well,

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Speaker 1: In order to kind of set the stage, I would

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Speaker 1: like to do a quick recitation of the facts that

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Speaker 1: the essential evidence that I uncovered in my Vanity Fair

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Speaker 1: story first published in June of twenty and then this

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Speaker 1: book that I wrote, Homicide at rough Point, that led

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Speaker 1: a new, unknown living witness of the actual murder to

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Speaker 1: come forward and for the new Art Police to reopen

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Speaker 1: the case. What was learned in the course of my

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Speaker 1: initial investigation through the first officer around the scene, Edward

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Speaker 1: angel As told He told me uh that Sergeant Fred Newton,

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Speaker 1: who was the chief accident investigator, had determined within minutes

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Speaker 1: of Eduardo Terrella's death what happened. And Eduardo Terrella was

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Speaker 1: this wonderful renaissance man in war hero who had been

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Speaker 1: working for Doris Duke for seven years as a principal

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Speaker 1: designer and art curator. They were leaving her a state

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Speaker 1: rough Point in Newport, Rhode Island on Millionaire's Row Bellevue

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Speaker 1: Avenue on the late afternoon around five o'clock of the

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Speaker 1: seventh of October nineteen sixty six to look at and

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Speaker 1: pick up a reliquary, which is a work of art

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Speaker 1: that Eduardo had praised earlier in the day, and he

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Speaker 1: finally gave her the impromat, let's go out and get it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He had just told her moments earlier that he was

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Speaker 1: leaving her employee after seven years. She was a notoriously

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Speaker 1: jealous and vindictive. She had a air temper. She had

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Speaker 1: stabbed her common law husband with a butcher knife two

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Speaker 1: years earlier, d and fifty stitches got away with that.

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Speaker 1: And so as they're leaving the estate, ad Wardo's driving

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Speaker 1: this sixty Dodge Palaro Wagon two ton station wagon, and

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Speaker 1: he gets out to open these massive iron gates twelve

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Speaker 1: ft tall by seven ft wide. They're fifteen feet away.

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Speaker 1: And as he's at the gates trying to just to

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Speaker 1: start to open them, she slides behind the wheel affirmative

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Speaker 1: Act one. She then releases the parking break by hand.

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Speaker 1: She then puts the car, moved the gearshift from park

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Speaker 1: to drive, affirmatively slams down on the accelerator, causing tire

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Speaker 1: with gouge marks of two inches in the gravel, and

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Speaker 1: they just roars forward at him. He then, to save

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Speaker 1: his life, does a kind of a lizard brain reaction

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Speaker 1: and he jumps up on the hood, which is a

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Speaker 1: thing that people do to say their lives that they

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Speaker 1: can't go left or right. And he's staring at her.

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Speaker 1: He broke his hip in the in the course of that,

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Speaker 1: but he's staring at her as she bursts through the

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Speaker 1: gates and the end affirmative Act five. She taps the brakes,

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Speaker 1: de accelerates, and you know, skids to a stop. He

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Speaker 1: rolls off. He's now in front of her, calling out

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Speaker 1: in pain, Doris, and then she decides to commit She

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Speaker 1: roars over him, crushing him under the vehicle and dragging

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Speaker 1: him across the street eighty feet onto a curb, knocks

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Speaker 1: down t post and rail fence, and hits a tree,

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Speaker 1: and he is He's just dead, instantly dead. And so

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Speaker 1: what I just described was heard by the witness who

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Speaker 1: came forward last summer to me. And what happened was

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Speaker 1: after my book came out, I was the uh considered

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Speaker 1: author and residence at the Brenton Hotel in Newport, Rhode Island.

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Speaker 1: All of this is on my website Peter Lance dot

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Speaker 1: com and I'm there at July three, rainy afternoon, and

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Speaker 1: this gentleman comes up to me says, I was, I

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Speaker 1: was there. I was. I was like her paper boy

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Speaker 1: for a rough Point. I said, you're kidding me? How

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Speaker 1: old were you? And you know I vetted him heavily

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Speaker 1: that night, and then I took him back the next

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Speaker 1: day and he said, I was coming out of Ledge Road,

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Speaker 1: which is just kind of to the east of of

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Speaker 1: the west of a rough Point. It's about six hundred

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Speaker 1: feet away, six hundred yards away actually, and I could

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Speaker 1: hear in the distance. It was very quiet in those days,

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Speaker 1: there was no competitive traffic. I heard a man and

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Speaker 1: a woman arguing, and I had established earlier that they

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Speaker 1: were arguing inside just after Eduardo told Doris he was

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Speaker 1: leaving her, and so she didn't want him to go

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Speaker 1: and and but they're shouting at each other in the

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Speaker 1: house and now apparently they took it outside. So as

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Speaker 1: he gets he's on his bike, he's about to deliver

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Speaker 1: the paper to rough Point. And there are two gates

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Speaker 1: at rough Point. There's a main gate in the front

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Speaker 1: and then there's a little service gate off to the side.

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Speaker 1: And when you go to Peter Lance dot com and

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Speaker 1: look at the Vanity Fair piece I filed in August

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Speaker 1: which has this detail. I did a video of Bob

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Speaker 1: that Vanity Fair edited is like five minutes long. You

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Speaker 1: can get the entire sense of what I'm about to

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Speaker 1: tell you. When what he told me, So, he's pedaling

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Speaker 1: on his tent speed bike, you know, frantically, and as

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Speaker 1: he gets closer, he keeps hearing all of the events

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Speaker 1: I just described. He hears the initial uh crash, you know,

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Speaker 1: as as as or the man crying out. As as

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Speaker 1: he goes up on the hood, he hears the first

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Speaker 1: crash of the gates opening. He then hears a d acceleration,

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Speaker 1: he hears the skid, he hears the man crying out,

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Speaker 1: and then he hears the man go as he's getting

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Speaker 1: really close no, and then she just drags over Eduardo

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Speaker 1: and kills him. All the fatal injuries, as I later

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Speaker 1: determined from autopsy reports that have been missing, were to

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Speaker 1: his upper body, and all of the damage was to

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Speaker 1: the lower gates. She did not crush him against the gates,

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Speaker 1: which was the cover story the police used. So Bob

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Speaker 1: tells me this, and I said, well, why are you

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Speaker 1: telling me this now? He said, because I read your book,

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Speaker 1: and I knew about your vanity fair thing. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even bother reading it, but people told me about it,

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Speaker 1: and I read your book, fine, Lee, and I just

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Speaker 1: thought about coming forward for all night and then for days,

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Speaker 1: and everybody told me, don't bother, Bob, you know that, like,

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Speaker 1: let it lie, let it rest. You really don't need

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Speaker 1: this in your life. He's a grandfather, he has multiple

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Speaker 1: grand shoulder and he's retired a steam fitter, a wonderful guy.

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Speaker 1: And he basically when I took him up the next day,

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Speaker 1: he took me through every little angle of it. And

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Speaker 1: this is the most astonishing thing that he told me,

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Speaker 1: he said, After he literally made it to this service

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Speaker 1: gate and dropped, dutifully dropped the paper in a slot.

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Speaker 1: He turned and it was literally seconds after the second

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Speaker 1: fatal crash. Okay, the second crash across the street, and

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Speaker 1: he whipped pans over and he looks down the street

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Speaker 1: and he sees this station wagon, uh, and was what

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Speaker 1: he thought was a fire coming up. It was steam.

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Speaker 1: And then he sees a woman get out of the car,

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Speaker 1: a tall woman. Now he had never met Doris stood.

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Speaker 1: He knew he delivered a rough point. He knew that

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Speaker 1: there was a rich lady called Doris stood. She was

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Speaker 1: six ft two, and he sees her get out, walk one, two,

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Speaker 1: be four or five steps deliberately turned, and she starts

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Speaker 1: staring underneath the vehicle, like looking at it as if

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Speaker 1: searching for proof of life. Not in shock, not oh

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Speaker 1: my god, what did I do? What did I say?

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Speaker 1: You know, look my ed wired? Oh no, she's like

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Speaker 1: steely eyed and cold blooded, like you know, looking down.

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Speaker 1: And so Bob comes up behind her on his tent

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Speaker 1: speed and she doesn't see him because their back is

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Speaker 1: to him. Finally, as he finishes pedaling, the gears start

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Speaker 1: to click click click, and she turns and he says, ma'am,

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Speaker 1: can I help you? And he was always taught by

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Speaker 1: his father the code you always help people. If it's

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Speaker 1: a woman, you do even more to help the person,

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Speaker 1: you know. Uh. He noticed that she had no injuries

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Speaker 1: on her, she was not in any kind of shock

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Speaker 1: at all. But he said, ma'am, do you want me

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Speaker 1: to go up to the house, And three times in

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Speaker 1: a row, first he said do you want me to

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Speaker 1: get help? Then he said you want me to go

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Speaker 1: to the house, And then he said, you want me

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Speaker 1: to call the cops. Each time she pointed her finger

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Speaker 1: at him and says, you get the hell out of here,

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Speaker 1: literally with more velocity to her voice each time. He's

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Speaker 1: a thirteen year old kid, and he's like, whoa. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: she's trying to see under the car because he remembered

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Speaker 1: hearing a man's voice, and there's no man, and she's

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Speaker 1: crab walking back and forth in front of the vehicle

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Speaker 1: as if to keep him from seeing. And finally she

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Speaker 1: just gets him out of there, and as he's peddling away,

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Speaker 1: he thinks to himself and all of this, he tells

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Speaker 1: me the next day as we go up there, where

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Speaker 1: was the guy? Where was the guy whose voice I heard?

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Speaker 1: Next day, he then sees the Newport Daily News and

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Speaker 1: I'll stop talking. You can we can pick it up

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Speaker 1: from from there, just so you guys can get a

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Speaker 1: word and edgewise. I think we're all wrapped. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: that's the whole thing here, Peter. When when I I

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Speaker 1: watched that video that you're talking about, it's on the

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Speaker 1: Vanity Fair piece that's edited together. It's uh pretty horrifying

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Speaker 1: to to kind of live back, live through that again

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Speaker 1: with Bob, as he's taking you through that, and he

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Speaker 1: gets to a point in there where he discusses why

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Speaker 1: he didn't immediately come forward with it. Why, like, after,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're a kid, your thirteen years old, you

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Speaker 1: probably go home, you tell your parents, you're like, man,

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Speaker 1: this crazy thing happened. Why didn't he end up, you know,

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Speaker 1: going and speaking with the police or with reporters, or

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Speaker 1: why wasn't that a part of the story initially exactly?

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Speaker 1: So what what he told me was and it was

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Speaker 1: quite fully believable. And if you go to Peter Lance

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Speaker 1: dot com and you look at the Vanity Fair the

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Speaker 1: second story, you'll see a family photo is in the

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Speaker 1: cover of the first page, and his father was like

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Speaker 1: six ft four, big guy, former prize fighter, tough guy.

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Speaker 1: There were nine children. Bob you know, was the oldest

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Speaker 1: at the time. And basically the next the night of

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Speaker 1: when he got home, he started to tell his father,

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Speaker 1: and his father said, get dinner ready, kid, you know,

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Speaker 1: get you know, get the dinner ready, the potatoes and carrots.

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Speaker 1: So the next day he goes to pick up the

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Speaker 1: Daily News because during the week, the Daily News was

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Speaker 1: an afternoon paper, but on Saturday it was delivered in

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Speaker 1: the morning. So he goes to pick up the papers

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Speaker 1: to deliver and he looks at the front page and

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Speaker 1: he sees and it's it's all on Peter lance dot com.

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Speaker 1: He sees Doris Duke kills friend and crash. He sees

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Speaker 1: this photo of the of the underside of the wagon

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Speaker 1: on the front page, and then it says she crushed

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Speaker 1: him against the gates. And but he sees the name

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Speaker 1: Eduardo Terrell and he goes, oh my god, that's the guy.

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Speaker 1: So as soon as he finishes his root, he rushes home.

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Speaker 1: He says, Dad, Dad, this is what I was talking about.

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Speaker 1: And his father grabs him, bite his shoulders, pulls him

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Speaker 1: out onto a sun porch, away from the rest of

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Speaker 1: the people in the house, the family, his mother and

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Speaker 1: brothers and sisters, and says, listen to me. You tell

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Speaker 1: nobody this. You don't tell your mother, your sisters, your

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Speaker 1: brother and your friends. Nobody do you hear me? And

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Speaker 1: he's like, Bob, isn't shock because his dad was always

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Speaker 1: do the right thing, Dad, okay, come forward, never take

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Speaker 1: the path at least resistance right. He was a boy scout,

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Speaker 1: he was an altar boy. I mean, you know, so, uh,

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Speaker 1: he's got dad, But what about you know, the police,

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Speaker 1: especially the police, do you hear me? His father never

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Speaker 1: told him why and which is clearly in retrospect, his

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Speaker 1: father should have told of him. And for months he

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Speaker 1: dogged him, did you talked to anybody? Just asking no, Dad,

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you I didn't tell anybody, all right. So

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Speaker 1: finally five years go by he's ready to join the

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Speaker 1: Marine Corps and Bob his credit was, these guy's got

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Speaker 1: a photographic memory. And he was stationed during the Vietnam

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Speaker 1: War at Henderson Hall, which is the Marine headquarters in Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. Where he had a top secret security clearance.

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Speaker 1: So this man is, you know, he may have been

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Speaker 1: a blue collar worker in life, but he he was

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Speaker 1: like very high level in terms of his you know,

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Speaker 1: analytical thinking and skill. And so he then in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy three takes two Marine buddies that he served with

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Speaker 1: to Newport and he tells them the story beat by

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Speaker 1: beat by beat. He also tells four other Newporters, including

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Speaker 1: Danny Sullivan, a retired firefighter who gave him the paper route.

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Speaker 1: And he tells it exactly as I just recited it,

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Speaker 1: as that he told me beat by beat, and I

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Speaker 1: contacted all of those individuals and they told me absolutely

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Speaker 1: as it was early as nineteen seventy three, we heard

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Speaker 1: the same story, and Bob's told it over the years

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Speaker 1: too many people. So then I said to him, well,

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Speaker 1: what you know, are you gonna go to the cops?

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Speaker 1: He said, already did. I went to the cops yesterday

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Speaker 1: and he did. He and they and he went to talk.

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Speaker 1: First he called this lieutenant named Corey Huck, lieutenant who

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Speaker 1: asked him something that you know you never asked. You know,

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Speaker 1: you never get judgmental with a whistle blower. In my opinion, Okay,

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Speaker 1: do you if you find a whistleblower that's willing to,

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Speaker 1: you know, talk about something that happened, you don't get

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Speaker 1: judgmental with him, because then you can spook them into

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Speaker 1: like withdrawing right, You just want to give them as

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Speaker 1: much string as possible. And so this lieutenant Huck said

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Speaker 1: to him, are you trying to unburden your soul? Like?

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Speaker 1: And Bob said, and Bob's a bulldog, so he was

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Speaker 1: not dissuaded by these I'm not trying to unburden my soul.

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Speaker 1: And he kind of said it like that, and that's

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Speaker 1: how he said it to me in the Vanity Fair video.

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Speaker 1: And then the next day Huck had him meet this lieutenant.

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Speaker 1: Her name was Jackie Wist detect if wu e s

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Speaker 1: t pronounced least, and she's the cold case detective for

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Speaker 1: the day for the Newport Police. So he goes into

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Speaker 1: an interrogation room and he's there with her for two hours,

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Speaker 1: and I ultimately got the audio of that, which I

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Speaker 1: transcribed and part of my investigation of what what went

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Speaker 1: wrong with this new investigation. And she's very earnest in

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Speaker 1: the beginning, but it's clear she has no clue what

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Speaker 1: he's talking about. She never takes him up to rough points,

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Speaker 1: she never looks at the choreography of where where events

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Speaker 1: happened the way I did the next day, and she's

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Speaker 1: she's blowing up Google maps of the area with not

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Speaker 1: even ledge road on it and asked him to make

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Speaker 1: color marks on where he was, and she totally is

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Speaker 1: obviously clueless as to what happened. However, he tells her,

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Speaker 1: after I read Peter Lance's book, I came forward and

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Speaker 1: and then he criticizes again in the first sentence or

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Speaker 1: to Lieutenant Hawk about the burden my soul thing. So

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Speaker 1: that's there. And but finally, as after this came out

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Speaker 1: and I pitched to Vanity Fair, my editor David Friend,

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Speaker 1: one of the great veterans of Vanity Fair, said, uh, really,

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Speaker 1: are you sure about this, Peter? And I said, listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna send you some video. As soon as I

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Speaker 1: said the video, he said, you don't even have to

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Speaker 1: do a pitch for this. When can you have the story?

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Speaker 1: You know? Five thousand words, you know? And uh. And

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Speaker 1: then they took my video and they edited into that

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Speaker 1: five minute video that you saw, which has their logo

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Speaker 1: in the upper corner. I also got a drone photographer

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Speaker 1: named Lowell Blackman to do some nice drone footage of

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Speaker 1: rough points so you could get a sense of the

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Speaker 1: proximity of ledged road, which is also available on the

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Speaker 1: on the Peter Lance dot com. So now the piece

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Speaker 1: goes into Vanity Fair August fifth, the same day the

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Speaker 1: Associated Press goes worldwide on their international wire and five

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Speaker 1: thousand media outlets cover this door stuke case reopen, new

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Speaker 1: witness comes forward, etcetera, etcetera. So Jackie Weee, this detective

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Speaker 1: to her credit, initially sent me a letter. I emailed

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Speaker 1: her prior to the peace going because I wanted to

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Speaker 1: get their comment. And she was very specific. And again

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Speaker 1: her letter is on my website, Peter Lance dot com.

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Speaker 1: And she says, we're not going to ignore this case.

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Speaker 1: This case is the Duke case has now been reopened.

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Speaker 1: Uh and uh, we're gonna try and find justice fred

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Speaker 1: Wardo and his family. Can you help us? And I

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Speaker 1: immediately told her yes. I was then by then back

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Speaker 1: in California from Newport, and I said, you just call

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Speaker 1: me and we'll do it on on online, on zoom.

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Speaker 1: Whatever you want to do, I'll help you about That

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Speaker 1: was the that was the fifth of August. On the

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Speaker 1: twenty of August of the nineties, she sends me an

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Speaker 1: email and I'm I'm sending her emails back and forth.

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Speaker 1: What's the latest? What can I do to help? Ah?

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Speaker 1: Blah blah, And she sends me an email that says, well,

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Speaker 1: my lieutenant has told me not to talk to the media,

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Speaker 1: meaning I can't talk to her now. According to her lieutenant,

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Speaker 1: that's when the fixed was clearly beginning to get in. Now,

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Speaker 1: was it Huck who got his nose out of joint

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Speaker 1: because he was upset that Bob criticized him on the

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Speaker 1: Vanity Fair thing and in the interview, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know this Corey huck at all. I've never

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Speaker 1: met him. I don't know much about him. But I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna find out more when as I'm gonna do a

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Speaker 1: new book that's going to explore this. But the point

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Speaker 1: is by she had not read my book, uh even then,

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Speaker 1: even by the end of August, and uh, you know

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Speaker 1: she read the Vanity Fair piece. She never took Bob

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Speaker 1: up to this up to the place. And then finally

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Speaker 1: on the on the fifteenth of September, now ten weeks

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Speaker 1: after she commenced the investigation, Bob writes her heartfelt letter

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Speaker 1: and he's got the Irish writer's gene. Man, this guy

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Speaker 1: is really talented. He writes this beautiful letter saying have

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Speaker 1: I done this for not? Have I come forward? And

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Speaker 1: all for no reason? I mean, I d wiredo Terrella.

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Speaker 1: As I quote him in my Vanity Fair piece, he said,

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Speaker 1: I thought about it all night. I thought about it

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Speaker 1: for weeks, and then I thought to myself, the truth

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Speaker 1: needs to come out. The people of Newport need to know,

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Speaker 1: the world needs to know. This was a beautiful man.

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Speaker 1: Taken from this earth. Uh in a violent act, and

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Speaker 1: it needs the truth needs to come out. So what

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Speaker 1: does Jackie West do when she gets that letter on

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Speaker 1: September fifty ten weeks in she rushes over to his

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Speaker 1: house and makes an unannounced visit. When have you ever

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Speaker 1: heard of a cop making an unannounced visit unless they're

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Speaker 1: coming to arrest somebody at their house? Right? And then

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Speaker 1: she says to him, as Bob calls me right after

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Speaker 1: she said she she asked me, uh at, you know,

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Speaker 1: how do I know you just didn't make up this

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Speaker 1: whole thing? You know, after you read Peter's book. Now,

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Speaker 1: Originally in her letter to me, she said, we find

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Speaker 1: I find Bob credible. She found him credible. Okay, Now

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Speaker 1: ten weeks later she's questioning whether he made the whole

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Speaker 1: thing up. She then told him this is interesting. I

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Speaker 1: got promoted to sergeant. I'm going off on a three

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Speaker 1: week vacation and and but when I get back, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be in in the traffic division, which is a

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Speaker 1: very important job in Newport, which has very narrow streets

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Speaker 1: and hordes of tourists with big trucks, so traffic is

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Speaker 1: a big deal. But she said I'm taking all the

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Speaker 1: cold cases with me. So query if you didn't even

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Speaker 1: have time, then by then she still had not read

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Speaker 1: my book. Okay, so if you haven't had read the book,

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Speaker 1: which is the essence, and I sent her on September two,

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Speaker 1: chapter and verse. It's all on my website. There's a

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Speaker 1: link Peter Lance dot com letter to Jackie Wee September

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Speaker 1: twenty two in which, in red bold, I just did,

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Speaker 1: like paint by numbers, connect the dots on the sixth

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Speaker 1: intentional acts that Doris Duke committed that could prove intent

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Speaker 1: to kill homicide. And I wasn't asking the Newport Police

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Speaker 1: to use the word murder. I was just saying, would

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Speaker 1: you be able now to declare that there is probable evidence,

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Speaker 1: compelling evidence that the death of Eduardo Terrella was proximately

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Speaker 1: caused by a series of intentional acts committed by Doris Duke.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to use the word murder because murder

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Speaker 1: didn't apply. Murders a legal term, and since Doris was dead,

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Speaker 1: she couldn't be indicted, then no grand jury could hear

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Speaker 1: this in the case could not be brought. But you know,

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Speaker 1: why not at least reached that conclusion and set the

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Speaker 1: record straight and the midst of this incredible evidence. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're just gonna take a quick break here, a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsor. Then we'll be right back with more

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Speaker 1: from Peter Lance. And we've returned with Peter Lance. Peter,

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Speaker 1: you hit on a couple of things that I just

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Speaker 1: really want to drill down into that you've you've already

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Speaker 1: kind of discussed. I just I need to hear more. Um.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons, or the reason perhaps that active

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Speaker 1: investigations are not discussed by law enforcement is so that

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Speaker 1: only the person who's responsible in the investigators know the specifics,

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Speaker 1: right we this is an established thing. When I read

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Speaker 1: through your original Vanity Fair article and then excerpts from

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Speaker 1: your book, I have a lot of I'm now just

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Speaker 1: as a reader armed with a lot of that information

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Speaker 1: from from your investigations. And that's that's why maybe initially

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Speaker 1: it's not that I'm captical of Bob. It's just that

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Speaker 1: I imagine that he could be armed with much of

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Speaker 1: the information from reading the same things I did. And

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Speaker 1: that's just why I want to know how you personally

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Speaker 1: vetted him. And you know you're saying that the officer

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Speaker 1: also vetted him and found him credible. Just what do

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Speaker 1: you use? What instinct is it? What are what are

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Speaker 1: the things you used to vet somebody like that? Well,

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Speaker 1: the reason she found him credible was and and again,

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Speaker 1: I at least New Rhode Island has a very viable

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Speaker 1: freedom of information act law called the Access to Public

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Speaker 1: Records Act. And I was able to get the audio

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Speaker 1: of that recording of Bob, and I have sense have

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Speaker 1: gotten the video of it as well. Okay uh and

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Speaker 1: she uh. But Bob says to her at the very end,

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Speaker 1: she says, well, who can corroborate this? And he gives

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Speaker 1: it the names of the two marines, and he gives

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Speaker 1: it the names of Danny Sullivan and three other newporters

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Speaker 1: that he told in the early eighties, And to her credit,

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Speaker 1: within minutes of him leaving, his friends called him up.

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Speaker 1: So this cop is calling to see if that story

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Speaker 1: you told us years ago is true? Should I talk

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Speaker 1: to her? And he said, by all means, talk to her.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that she was able to corroborate and

427
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 1: I was. I talked to all of them personally, I

428
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: interviewed them, I did transcript I recorded the interviews and

429
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: I did transcripts of the interviews so that I knew

430
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: that that he just hadn't just wing this thing, that

431
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: he was not just you know, had read my book.

432
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 1: That the corroboration that made him credible was the fact

433
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 1: that he told the story so much earlier. It's very

434
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 1: similar to a lot of the cases in the Meto

435
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 1: era where women who were mistreated sexually is an understatement

436
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: were told friends contemporaneously, and that goes to their credibility, right,

437
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 1: That's part of what we do to assess the truth

438
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: and individuals who come forward, particularly if it's years and

439
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: decades later. So I was convinced. And these are two

440
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 1: marines and and Danny Sullivan, veteran firefighter. They're all like, hey,

441
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 1: you can take what Bob says to the bank. This

442
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,640
Speaker 1: guy does not exaggerate, he's not prone to hyperbole, and

443
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: you know he meant this meant a lot to him

444
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,959
Speaker 1: coming forward in the first place. So, uh, you know,

445
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 1: I that's why I was satisfied that he was on

446
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 1: the level. And then you know there was his explanation

447
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: as I gave you earlier for why he didn't come

448
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: forward with his father, made perfect sense. Oh, by the

449
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: way I want to add to this. So when he's

450
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: he's now eighteen years old, he goes to his father,

451
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: is just about to join the Marine Corps, he's now

452
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 1: a man, and he says to him, Dad, come on,

453
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 1: tell me, why did you tell me not to come forward?

454
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: And the father says, and he, in retrospect, should have

455
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: told him. Then he would have saved them a lot

456
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 1: of angst over the years. He said, son, listen, if

457
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: this had gone to trial, you would have been an

458
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: important key witness on motive, on on you know, the

459
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 1: the event itself. You would have testified. And I didn't.

460
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 1: I knew what Doris Duke was capable of. I didn't

461
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: want you riding your bike along Ocean Drive on doing

462
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: your paper route, as as the nights were getting darker

463
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: each day, and have you hit from behind by a car.

464
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to lose my son. His father was

465
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: so concerned this bruiser, the six ft five four guy,

466
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: former prize fighter and Steve Fitner himself said, has told

467
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: his son, I was so worried about you that you

468
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: would be killed by Doris Stuke. That's why I did

469
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 1: its son, And so that took a big burden off

470
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: of him. But it also gives you an idea of

471
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: what people thought about Doris S. Douke in her capabilities

472
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: in Newport, Rhode Island in ninety And that's why I

473
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: mean that's chilling, because it's undeniably a valid concern, right, Um,

474
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: And this I agree with you that that must have been, Um,

475
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: that must have been at least, uh, a validating experience

476
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: for Bob there because you know, it answered some questions,

477
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: gave him some closure about something very un characteristic on

478
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: his father's behalf. What are we're talking about specifically, You'll

479
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: have to listen to part one, folks, But well, while

480
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: we're cogitating on that, I'd like to ask about a

481
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: related point here. So in part one, uh, you mentioned

482
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 1: how it was clear from the jump that the forensic

483
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: evidence on the ground was not matching what was in

484
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: that first official narrative report or conclusion. And I'm really

485
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: curious to learn when you were in your recent conversations

486
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: after the publication of Vandy Fair article, after the reopening

487
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: of the case, Uh, how did law enforcement square these

488
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 1: clearly conflicting conclusions, right, Because you have a solid case

489
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: where you you know you've got cooperated stuff. And you

490
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: can say, well, that first report does not in any

491
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: way match what actually happened. What what was their response?

492
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: Did they just stonewall into like the evidence doesn't support

493
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Yeah. The fact that when the book

494
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: first came out in February three, w j R, a

495
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: wonderful reporter called r J him h G. I am

496
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 1: for w j R, the NBC affiliate in Providence, did

497
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: a four part series and he contacted the police and

498
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: they refused to even comment on the findings in the book.

499
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: Then in February when the case was reopened, Uh, the

500
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: Jackie Whist was very forthcoming with me and I have

501
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: I think thirteen emails to her and she has five

502
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: or six emails back to me. And and by the

503
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: way her emails after I believe Lieutenant Huck. My it's

504
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: my opinion that Lieutenant huck obstructed the investigation. He should

505
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: have recused himself because if he's telling her, if I'm

506
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: not just in the media, but I'm a central fact

507
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: witness in this reinvestigation because of what I uncovered, if

508
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: he's telling her not to talk to me, that's obstruction.

509
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: So he arguably should have recused himself from the chain

510
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: of command in my opinion, if they really cared about

511
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: the truth. But ultimately we'll get to in a minute

512
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: how they ended up concluding that there was no evidence,

513
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: not conflicting evidence, no evidence. And all anyone has to

514
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: do is read go to Peter Lance dot com. I

515
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 1: even make I'll make it easy. I have links to

516
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: the key chapters in the book proving the murder and

517
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: the cover up. You can read them and then hopefully

518
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: you'll buy the book or listen to the book, et cetera.

519
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: But the thing I was going to bring up that

520
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: I had forgotten that's really important is one of the

521
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: things that Bob brought to this narrative beyond his memory,

522
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: was the following. Remember I said, when he confronted Doris Duke,

523
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: she was not uh injured in any way, And he said,

524
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: particularly said to me, Peter, as a boy scout, I

525
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 1: you know I would have noticed if she was injured.

526
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: I would have been more insistent on helping her. So

527
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: this is like happens minutes after she's completely unwounded and uninjured,

528
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: and then as Bob is peddling away to do the

529
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: rest of his ROOTIA two or three other stops. He

530
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: hears here's the siren of Edward Angel, the first arriving

531
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: officer on the scene. And when Edward Angel was I

532
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: interviewed him initially, and then I did further interviews for

533
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: the Vanity Fair Peace in August, then even more interviews

534
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: because he they finally brought him in to interview him.

535
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: Jackie Weist only after she'd gone to Bob's house and

536
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: Bob says, if you don't believe me, called talk to

537
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: Eddie Angel, you know, like that. So she interviewed Eddie Angel.

538
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: I got the audio of that, and I transcribed that

539
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: as well. But by that time, on the seventeenth of September,

540
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: she was saying things to Eddie Angel like her mind

541
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: was already closed, Like pretty hard to prove intent when

542
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: everybody's dead. That's a line from Jackie Weist on September,

543
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: like more than ten weeks after she opened the case. Now,

544
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: if she's an objective finder of fact, why would she

545
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: say hard to prove intent if everybody's dead. I'm not dead,

546
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: at least not yet. Bob's not dead, Eddie Angel is

547
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: not dead. There's all kinds of the other officers I

548
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: interviewed her around. The forensic evidence is what it is.

549
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's all available. I would have sent detailed,

550
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: uh copious uh copies of my evidence to her. She

551
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: really cared, but she was already inclosure mode. But this

552
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: is one of the most chilling and telling aspects, and

553
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: this will give you an insight into who Doris Duke

554
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: really was. So when Eddie Angel gets on the scene,

555
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: he finds her in the car, apparently in shock and

556
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: with what Bill Waterson, another cop who saw at Newport Hospital,

557
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: called steering wheel injuries, meaning she went boo, she self

558
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: phone my headphones almost fellow, she self wounded herself. In

559
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: other words, this is a time when there's no seat

560
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: belts and there are no restraints and no air bags, right,

561
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: so she had to bump her nose and cut her

562
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: lip intentionally. And then when Eddie Angel got there, he said,

563
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: I was a rookie. I was, and he keeps apologizing

564
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: for this, and I said, Eddie, anybody would have done

565
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: the same thing. He said, I I blurted out, there's

566
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: a guy under there. There's somebody under there, at which

567
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: point she jumped doubt and she starts walking back and

568
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: forth on w Avenue apparently in shock. A young naval

569
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: nurse named Judith tom Oh now war to go, who

570
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: I tracked down who had just been commissioned an ensign

571
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: in the in the Newport at the Newport Naval Base,

572
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: who was a nurse. She's with her mother and father

573
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: are they're about to go on a site seeing trip

574
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: around Ocean Drive. She gets up and Doris runs into

575
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: the house, and so she starts following her. She chases

576
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: Doris into the house to make sure she's okay. She

577
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: Doris goes up to the second floor, calling ed wardo

578
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: Eduardo Eduardo as if she's creating this story, like you

579
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: know that's gonna fit with this whole thing. If I

580
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: was on him, I didn't know what happened. And then

581
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: she comes out again, comes back out, and so and

582
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: Judas said later than the McCallister, the corrupt doctor who

583
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: happened to be my family doctor, who allowed himself to

584
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: be hired by Doris Duke that night even though he

585
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: was the assistant medical examiner charged with determining the cause

586
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: of death, and he hit her away in her room

587
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: in Newport Hospital so state investigators could not get to her.

588
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: Philip McAlister told Alton Schlegel, a classic crime bulldog reporter

589
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: from the New York Daily News, that she was bleeding

590
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: profusely from her head had serious injuries. This is what

591
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: he tells Alton Schlegel, and Judith Tom Saidoshia a couple

592
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: of little things on her lip and you know, maybe

593
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: a little bit of you know, bruises up on her nose.

594
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: And Bill Waterson said the same thing when he saw

595
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: at Newport Hospital. So they were already into this exaggeration now.

596
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: But here's the final point I'd like to make as

597
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 1: I you know, you know me, I go on and on.

598
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: By now people know that that Eddie Angel, the fact

599
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: that Eddie Angel found her in the car apparently wounded,

600
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: and Bob only moments earlier saw her out of the

601
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: car deliberately not in shock, in cold blood, keeping him,

602
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: preventing him from looking under the car, screaming at him

603
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: three times to get away. I ran all of this

604
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: by Detective James Moss. And Detective James Moss is kind

605
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: of a legendary detective from Brooklyn South Homicide now retired,

606
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: and he and I actually cleared when we get into

607
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: some of my terrorism stuff over the years and my

608
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: third book, Triple Cross. We we solved with the help

609
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: of an FBI undercover agent and Egyptian name Imed Salem,

610
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: we solved the brutal, bloody murder of Mustafa Shallaby, who

611
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: was an e mom at a mosque in Brooklyn. There

612
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: was an open case for nineteen years, and we solved

613
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: it in the year. I did a piece for Playboy

614
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: about this. And you know, they used to have articles

615
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: and Playboy, you guys have never you know, whatever, it's

616
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: an old joke. But wait, they have articles published Silverstein

617
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: one time. But so I did a piece for Playboy

618
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: on this and and and we saw this case. So

619
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: Jimmy Moss became a buddy of mine. Okay, he's just

620
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: a wonderful guy. And he came up to Newport with

621
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: me in October when I first began investigating this. He

622
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: was there for a week. Uh and and I ran

623
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: everything by him, my entire investigation. I gave him all

624
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,719
Speaker 1: the evidence to analyze to make sure. How is it

625
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: that the police didn't talk to any of these witnesses,

626
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: I mean they briefly. Eddie Angel interviewed the Tom's the

627
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: father who was a Milwaukee cop, and his daughter Jude,

628
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: just very briefly. But the next day, when Eduardo's brother

629
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: in law went and took the photographs inside the gates

630
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 1: of the tire marks before they cleaned it all up,

631
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: he was interviewed by Frank Waltsch and that walts didn't

632
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: didn't seem to care about any of that stuff. He

633
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: just wanted to know the relationship with Doris Duke. So

634
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: they're already into cover up mode. But I said to

635
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: Jimmy Moss, what does this mean to you about what's

636
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: the significance of the difference between the way Bob Walker

637
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: saw Doris Duke moments after the killing of Eduardo and

638
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: the way Eddie Angel found her. And he said, the

639
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: behavior of this woman of power who dominated over this

640
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: kid six ft two, women of great power and influence

641
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: who based him from the crime scene, was the behavior

642
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 1: of a pure psycho path. He didn't say sociopath, he

643
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: said a pure psychopath. And that's the last paragraph in

644
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: that Vanity Fair story I did in August five. So

645
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: you know this is you know, all of this is

646
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: informed by not just me shooting from the hip. It's

647
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 1: like sixty pages of annotations, and I'm very proud all

648
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: of those books that, by the way, I don't even

649
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: know how to point now in this thing. Those books

650
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: to the left of the homicide cover. The first book

651
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: I did on counter terrorism for HarperCollins, over six hundred pages,

652
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: called um A Thousand Years for Revenge. I did a

653
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: shorter book called Cover Up that led to the indictment

654
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 1: of a former FBI supervisor on four counts of murder

655
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: conspiracy in Brooklyn. The case ended abruptly during trial for

656
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: complicated reasons, uh triple cross. My third book was focused

657
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: on Ali Mohammed the al Qai, a spy who was

658
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: the FBI totally knew about for years and just he

659
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: ate their lunch for years. And then my last book

660
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: is called Deal with the Devil. It's an epic story

661
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: of Gregory Scarpa SR, a mad dog killer for the

662
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: Colombo crime family who was a top echelon criminal informant

663
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: for the Bureau. It's the Whitey Budger story on steroids. Okay.

664
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: So all four of those books go in with massive

665
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: detail and when you're when you're criticizing the FBI and

666
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: the Justice Department, you better be right, Okay. So all

667
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: of those books have that massive levels thousands of end

668
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: notes of annotation, as does this book. It has sixty

669
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: pages end note annotations. So you know, I brought my

670
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: body of work over the years, my skill the skill

671
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: set I developed doing epic stories like this, which are

672
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: all retrospective, aren't they? That they're all nine eleven is

673
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: a cold case. I opened my my book Triple Across

674
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: by saying that they still haven't tried Collee shake Mohammed

675
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: down and get mo Okay, right, we know that Khalee

676
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: shake Mohammed was. They call him the mastermind. He was

677
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: Romsey Yusef's uncle. Ramsey Yusuf is the guy that I

678
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: focused on in my first book, Thousand Years Revenge, in

679
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: which I said, for the first time any mainstream journalists

680
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: the two attacks on the World Trade Center were absolutely intertwined.

681
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: They were al Qaeda operations funded by Bin Laden and

682
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: everybody spurned at every you know, the mainstream media forget

683
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: it except Dan Rather, to his credit, did two pieces

684
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: on the CBS Evening News from Iraq reporting on my

685
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: first book, A Thousand Years Revenge in two thousand three,

686
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: and then what do you think years later, The Newport

687
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: The New York Times, the Paper of Record, The Gray

688
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: Lady did a piece on written by a guy named

689
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: Ben Wiser, who covers the Southern district of New York,

690
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: about how the s d N Y had re had

691
00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: updated the superseding indictment on Romsey Yusuf to include his uncle,

692
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: college Sheik Mohammed and all the nine eleven murders. I

693
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: was right, But did anybody say, did anybody mention it? No,

694
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: because media institutions like The New York Times are as

695
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 1: adverse to admit that they're wrong as as law enforcement institutions.

696
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: It's human nature. Nobody wants some guy like Peter Lance,

697
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: who you know, I was a former correspondent for ABC News,

698
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: but I've been writing books ever since. You know, I'm

699
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: a lone wolf. Now. I don't have a big, you know, pulpit,

700
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: a bully pulpit to preach from, as you might if

701
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: you work for the Washington Puzz of the New York Time.

702
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to be told they were wrong. But all

703
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: of my books are in the same vein retrospective looking

704
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: at cold cases. That's what they are, and that's what

705
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: this is. That's what homicide at rough point is writ large.

706
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: You know this well said and this. Uh, this leads

707
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: us to another part of our conversation before we go

708
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: there as a follow up to the point you just

709
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: made about the fallibility of humans. And you know, nobody

710
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: wakes up super excited to admit that they got something wrong.

711
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: I have to ask, because I'm sure a lot of

712
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: audience members are thinking the same thing. Have you at

713
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: any point Peter found any evidence of remorse on Doris

714
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 1: Duke's part between the time nineteen sixty six and her

715
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: demise in the nineties, Like even once was she like

716
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: I feel bad that he's dead. No. In fact, as

717
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: I mentioned in the last hour, I found an individual,

718
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: former R a f tail gunner during World War Two,

719
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: an Irishman who became a big game hunter, and he

720
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: became her lover months later, and he was inseparable with

721
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: her from June of sixty seven, the summer after when

722
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: I started on the daily news, all the way through

723
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: October and later as he he wanted to get away

724
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: from her. He actually said I was starting to be

725
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: afraid of her. This is this is an alpha male

726
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: if there ever was one, this individual, And he said

727
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: to me one night in pillow talk, I just said, so,

728
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: what about this story all the thing, and she said,

729
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: cold bloodedly he got what was coming to him. Nobody.

730
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 1: Two times me and I explained a little bit about

731
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: what that the significance of what that may have been

732
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: on the last broadcast, she never expressed any remorse. The

733
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: Newport Restoration Foundation, Uh, they they at least admit that

734
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: the death of Eduardo was a quote tragic accident. They

735
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: keep calling it a tragic accident. But no one in

736
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: an official Newport the city manager, Joe Nicholson, UH, the

737
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: city council who had the ability to order Nicholson to

738
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 1: do an independent investigation, and basically just kind of rolled over,

739
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: the police department Chief Gary Silva, Corey huck and then

740
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: ultimately Jackie Weee, this cold case detective who basically folded

741
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 1: after a five month investigation, claiming there is no evidence.

742
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 1: Now we I think I put forth in almost two

743
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: hours of your program, compelling evidence, and people can read

744
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: it in Homicide at rough point. You can go to

745
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 1: Peter Lance dot com look at the key chapters, read

746
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: it for yourself at sixty pages of annotations. I even

747
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: have a link to that. I have have pictures of

748
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 1: the key graphic evidence in the book and just people

749
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: can judge for themselves whether or not there is not

750
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: compelling evidence that Doris Duke killed Eduardo Terrella with intent,

751
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 1: And yet they just have slammed the door shut again

752
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: and not just equivocally. Well, we couldn't really tell if

753
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: there was, you know, conflicting evidence and said they said,

754
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: there's no evidence that was Jackie West pronunciamento, which the

755
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: city kind of walked back a couple of different times.

756
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: But they're still embracing the unfortunate accident theory, which was

757
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: corruptly arrived at in nineteen sixty six and within ninety

758
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: six hours of of Eduardo's death. And I talked about

759
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: that in the last hour, the fabricated transcript, that the

760
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: police went so far as to create three page transcript

761
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: of an interrogation that never took place, provably prima facia,

762
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: as we say in the law, on its face, prove

763
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 1: a bowl as a fake to get the case closed.

764
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: That's how far they went out of their way to

765
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: protect doors student. Well, and also like this, you talked

766
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: about the civil case. I guess it was with a

767
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: Dwardo's family trying to essentially just recoup what his earnings

768
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: would have been and how she continuously low balled them

769
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 1: and low balled them, and then it ultimately was compelled

770
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: to pay something just kind of absurd, seventy five thousand dollars,

771
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 1: which was less I'm sorry to terw up, but it

772
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: was less than the Chippendale High Boy that she bought

773
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: at Park Burnet for a hundred and twenty nine thousand

774
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: months before trial, the highest price for a piece of

775
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 1: furniture ever paid seventy five thousand dollars. And when his

776
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: when the lawyers took their cut for the for the family,

777
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: each brother and sister got five thousand, six hundred and

778
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: twenty dollars at a time she was making, when she

779
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: was making one million dollars a week in interest on

780
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: her fortune. Well, it's an interesting point that you bring

781
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: that up. I mean, it's almost like she looked at

782
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: him as a piece of furniture. She did not look

783
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: at him as a human being, and she did not

784
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: regard his family as human beings um and probably looked

785
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: at it as paying anything above that, you know, paltry amount,

786
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: would have been some sign of admission of guilt. Right. Well,

787
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 1: I think also that what she did was this is

788
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: very interesting and I did not realize this until I

789
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: went back and you know, started to put the book together,

790
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: and I had much more perspective on the timeline. Why

791
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: did she drag out the case for five years? So

792
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: they filed for one point to five million this wrongful

793
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: death case, and what wrongful death is means if a

794
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: person dies and you're his heirs, and that person has

795
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: an earning capacity for the rest of their life, if

796
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: they're a blue collar worker, it's relatively limited. But Edwardo's

797
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: last year of earnings was like the equivalent of three

798
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: eight thousand dollars in contemporary dollars. Is Hollywood design career

799
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: was exploding, he was catching fire. So arguably he had

800
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: another twenty years to live. He had potentially millions of

801
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: dollars of earning capacity right well, first of all, they

802
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: kept dragging it out, in my opinion, because she began

803
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 1: restoring colonial houses in Newport, Rhode Island, which saved Newport

804
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: from bankruptcy. After President Nixon in nineteen seventy three essentially

805
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: gutted the Newport Naval Base. They closed Quantit Naval Air

806
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: Station across narragans At Bay, and the entire cruiser destroyer

807
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 1: Force Atlantic fleet crue des Land was moved to three

808
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: separate bases in the south. Now, how prepared would we

809
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 1: have been if there was a blow up with the

810
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: Soviets over that. You know, Newport's a lot closer to

811
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: Europe than than you know, Florida, Right, But that was

812
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: what happened with Nixon. So Doris comes in and what

813
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: I call a murderous quid pro quo and rescues the

814
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: town's economy. So five years later, by the time trial

815
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: happened in Providence, the state capital, she's getting these edicts

816
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: and decrees in the state Senate talking about her like

817
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: she walks on water. Oh Ms, Duke, thank you so

818
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 1: much for your philanthropy. Further, I can't prove this because

819
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: I don't have the transcript because it was selectively removed

820
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: from Rhode Island judicial archives. But did they play the

821
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: gay card? And why it was a gay man in

822
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six and one of the reasons the lgbt

823
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: Q plus community has really gotten behind this book. I've

824
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: had like five major pieces and The Advocate and To

825
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: and Out magazine, which is which are published by Pride Media.

826
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: Diane Anderson Minshaw, this incredible CEO has really been supportive

827
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: of this book and my work. If you were a

828
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: gay man in nineteen sixty six, you were half a man.

829
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: And that's not me talking, that's just the reality of

830
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: what it was like back then, prior to the lgbt

831
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 1: Q plus you know rights movement, right, So we don't know.

832
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,240
Speaker 1: But so the idea of is Donna Lomire, his beloved

833
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: niece said, and I quote this in the Vanity Fair piece,

834
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: and in the book, she killed him twice, she destroyed

835
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: his body, and then she eviscerated his memory, his reputation.

836
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: And one of the things I'm proudest of in this

837
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: whole endeavor is, weeks after the Vanity Fair piece came

838
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: out her Wikipedia entry, go to Doris Duke Wikipedia and

839
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: it had not been changed for years, and I found

840
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: out and I didn't do it. I wouldn't even know

841
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: how to do it. Okay, you can't do it if

842
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: it's like self interested. In Wikipedia, they change. They have

843
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: an entire section on EDWARDA. Terrella's death now in Doris

844
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: Duke's uh Wikipedia entry, and it's all sourced to my

845
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair story. So I'm very proud of that. If

846
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: we can argue fairly. I think we agree that Wikipedia

847
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: is kind of the Encyclopedia Britannica of our time. People

848
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: widely go to it. I mean it may be flawed,

849
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: but you know, people go to Wikipedia and look for

850
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: things and it's pretty well annotated. Uh. Then I'm very

851
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 1: proud that at least that part of history has changed.

852
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 1: But the Newport, Rhode Island government, the city manager, Joe Nicholson,

853
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: the police chief Gary Silver, Lieutenant Corey Huck and detective

854
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 1: now promoted to sergeant Jackie Wist absolutely abandoned the truth

855
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: in this case. Let's pause for a moment for a

856
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: word from our sponsors. Will be right back, and we've returned.

857
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: This leads us to uh, something we talked a little

858
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: bit about off air, But I'm sure a lot of

859
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: our folks tuning in today or wondering, in this case

860
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: specifically or in some of the other cases that you

861
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: have covered, have you ever felt that you were in

862
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: physical danger? I mean, I know there's a lot of

863
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: litigious folks out there, but did you ever you know,

864
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: when you were getting followed by uh agents from the

865
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: FBI or maybe shadowy members of the criminal underworld. Did

866
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: you ever have one of those moments where you genuinely thought, holy,

867
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: these folks might come for me. In order to wage

868
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: a war, there are two central elements. Right, you need operations,

869
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: You need people blowing things up on the ground. And

870
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 1: then you need intelligence. Right, you need spies. No successful

871
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: war from the time of Sun Sue has ever been

872
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 1: fought without both. Right, intelligence is crucial. So my first

873
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: book recounts the story of Ramsey Yusuf, this genius bomb

874
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: maker who was the nephew of College Shaik Mohammed, who

875
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: not only created the original nine eleven excuse me, the

876
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: bombing of the trade center in nine but also uh

877
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, as the architect of the nine eleven attacks

878
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: which he designed in the Philippines that we're about to

879
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: be executed as early as nineteen. But they had a

880
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: fire in their bomb factory. He and Khalige Shake fled

881
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: to Islamabad and he was arrested Yusuf. They picked up

882
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: his his partner Abdula Kim Murad, who was going to

883
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: be the original pilot, trained in four U S flight schools,

884
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: and he was rendered back to New York with Romsey

885
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: and Uh. So the plot was thwarted at that point,

886
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: but it was clearly bankrolled by bin Laden and as

887
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: I said, I proved this in the book, and it

888
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: was later vindicated by the super eating indictment of Usef

889
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: and K. S m by the Southern District of New York. Okay,

890
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: when my third book came out on the cover, we

891
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: had Patrick Fitzgerald we focused on. And Patrick Fitzgerald at

892
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: the time was probably one of the most powerful FEDS

893
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: in the Justice Department. When he was in the Southern

894
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: District of New York, he was the head of ironically

895
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: both organized crime and Terrorism unit. He was a very

896
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: close friend of James Comey when Comey was FBI Director,

897
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: I mean with when Comey was U S Attorney for

898
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: the Southern District, he appointed had got Patrick Fitzgerald appointed

899
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: U S Attorney in Chicago, where he went on to

900
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: indict Lagoyevic, you know, the governor. And he also was

901
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: the the special council in the CIA League case, the

902
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: Valerie Plane case. Okay, uh and where Scooter Libby was

903
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: convicted and then later part you know in that whole thing. Well,

904
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: Patrick Fitzgerald, after this book came out, afterwards published that

905
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: thick book there Triple Cross. This thick was published is

906
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: already out. Patrick Fitzgerald began writing a series of single

907
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: space threat letters to HarperCollins. He over a twenty month period,

908
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 1: he wrote four separate letters in which he said, not

909
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: only do I want this book pulped, the existing copies

910
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: of the book that are out there destroyed. I want

911
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: HarperCollins never to publish the trade paperback edition, which is

912
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: traditionally a year later. And so HarperCollins initially rejected him.

913
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: And then it's owned by Rupert Murdoch, by the way,

914
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: but it's one of the media entities that Murdoch has

915
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: never put his fingerprints on politically. HarperCollins at the time

916
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,479
Speaker 1: it was the largest English language publisher in the world,

917
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: and I never got any intervention to slant things one

918
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 1: way or the other. Was it was a great place

919
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: to do four books for so anyway, the initial lawyer

920
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: for HarperCollins at the time, Mark Jackson, uh sent a

921
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: letter to Fitzgerald flatly refusing this, saying this is an

922
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: important work of investigative journalism and basically sorry, Mr Fitzgerald,

923
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, And then he got when when Rupert Murdoch

924
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: bought Dow Jones, Mark Jackson went to be the general

925
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: counsel for Dow Jones, which publishes the Wall Street Journal. Okay, well,

926
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: now the new person that took over for him, who

927
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 1: was less sure of herself, was chilled when Patrick Fitzgerald

928
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: sent another letter which he facts from office of US

929
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: Attorney Chicago. How is that not a chill? How does

930
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: that not set a chill of the spine of a

931
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: new general counsel for a major publisher is just trying

932
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: to get her sea legs in her work. So she

933
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: decides to open an outside investigation, and they hire a

934
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: law firm in Chicago, Generan Block, a very expensive white

935
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: shoe firm, and they proceed to have like a I

936
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: don't know, year and a half month investigation in which

937
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: they made me prove every single fact in the book,

938
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: reprove it after the book had already been vetted for

939
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: found fit for a publication. That slowed me down? What

940
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: did it do? It took me out of play. It

941
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 1: kept me from doing my job to get my next book.

942
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 1: The first two books took two years from start to finish.

943
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: The last book took two years from uh well, the

944
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,280
Speaker 1: last book actually after this, the third one took six

945
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: years because I two years out, I was taken out

946
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 1: of play. Finally I got I basically after several heads

947
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: It's HarperCollins had left. I convinced the current head two

948
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: I was gonna go public if they didn't publish the paperback,

949
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: and I asked them to let me do twenty six

950
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: pages in the new paperback on this whole Fitzgerald escapade.

951
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: Just before the book came out in the in the

952
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: summer of I guess twenty eleven or something like that, okay, uh,

953
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: I wrote a huff post in which I challenged Patrick Fitzgerald,

954
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: if you have an ounce of evidence that you've been

955
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 1: liabeled in any way, shape or form, come at me, brother,

956
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: bring it. And he just scuttled into the dark, this guy,

957
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: But think of who he was. So when I was

958
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 1: in New York that the triple cross, the second book

959
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: cover up, prompted this indictment of this US, this former

960
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: BI supervisor Lynda Vechio, on four counts of murder conspiracy

961
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: by the Brooklyn d A. When I was in New York,

962
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 1: they wanted they they subpoened me. Both the defense and

963
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 1: the prosecution subpoened me. They wanted my sources. And I'll

964
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 1: go to jail before I'll give up a source. So basically,

965
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: HarperCollins Attorneys at the time, we're wood shedding me in

966
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 1: New York for two weeks. They had all my evidence

967
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: in a conference room that had guarded by security guards

968
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: and everything, you know, and I was taking them through

969
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,959
Speaker 1: the whole choreography of all my work so they could

970
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: prepare a motion to quash the indictment, which they did eventually, right,

971
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,720
Speaker 1: But while I was in New York during that period,

972
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: I was followed by two former members of the FBI

973
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 1: New York office who called them. They had a group

974
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: called the Friends of Lynda Vechio. The day Lynn da

975
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: Vechio got indicted in Brooklyn and he's out walks the

976
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: purp Walk outside as he's leaving court, he is surrounded

977
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: by like maybe twenty five agents, big guys, all in

978
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: blue suits with red or white shirts, red or blue ties,

979
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: and they're like pushing the press out of the way

980
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 1: like they're soccer hool against Okay, Literally this happened, and

981
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 1: I was there, and I was like, hey, hey, you know,

982
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 1: I was trying to get to the answer a question

983
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: that night. Uh an FBI agent, a former agent who

984
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: was a big supporter of my earlier work. He actually

985
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 1: shoved a matchbook in my pocket that day as he

986
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: was passing me. He showed and I looked at it

987
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 1: and it said Midnight Special. And I was a diner.

988
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: This guy lived on the Upper East Side. So I

989
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 1: get to the diner and he said, listen, Peter, I'm

990
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: telling you I can't protect you on this one. Brother.

991
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: You know, you know, this guy risked. He actually went

992
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: down to New Jersey and interviewed when I interviewed a

993
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: a former member of the Fire Department who was a

994
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: member of the mosque that were all these terrorists hung

995
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: out and and like you know, had literally got the

996
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: plans of the World Trade Center prior to the bombing

997
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: from the Fire Department. So I had to give this

998
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,839
Speaker 1: guy an opportunity response. So this guy, this FBI agent,

999
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: I don't want to name him, but he's legendary, wrote

1000
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: a best selling book. He said, I'm not letting you

1001
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: get down there alone, and so he took me down.

1002
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 1: I met him up in Harlem. Heetta Mercedes. He had

1003
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: a bill O'Reilly no spin Zone hat, and we went

1004
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: down there an interview. This this individual who was an

1005
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: Egyptian working in the in the f d n Y

1006
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: who got the plans of the of the Trade Center bombing,

1007
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: and he was on the arm. We had a video

1008
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: of him on the arm of blind Shake Omar Abdal Rochman,

1009
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: who is the Pope of Radical Islam. Okay convicted in

1010
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: a plot to blow up the bridges and tunnels into Manhattan,

1011
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: who Patrick Fitzgerald prosecuted. Okay, So I'm I'm you know, literally,

1012
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, going to see this guy and this this

1013
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: FBI agent had my back anyway, but that when I

1014
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: was in New York during that whole period and they're

1015
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,720
Speaker 1: preparing me for this motion to question and this murder trial,

1016
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 1: I'm being followed by these two guys so I nicknamed

1017
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,479
Speaker 1: Pat and Mike. They were constantly on me all the time.

1018
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: It was more like, hey, we're in your we're on

1019
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: your six you know, don't get too uppity, you know

1020
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: what I mean. But I didn't feel threatened per se.

1021
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: But that's how ham handed these guys are and what

1022
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: they can do when they want to suppress the truth.

1023
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: I've never heard a story like that, Peter, never of

1024
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: somebody actually being tailed by uh BY agents like that.

1025
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: First tired there's an incident I like, I can't wait

1026
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 1: to send it. I wrote a ten hour dramatic scripted

1027
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 1: series all about this that I'm hoping to get made

1028
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: at some point. And I have a scene there where

1029
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 1: there's a young lawyer. There were these two lawyers for HarperCollins,

1030
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: you know, and one was an old, waspy kind of

1031
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: guy with wellesley lockjaw, and then another one was a

1032
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: young half Jewish, half Italian kid, and he was in

1033
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: the beginning, he was like, come on, Land's get to

1034
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,720
Speaker 1: the chase. Cut to the chase. Stop talking, you talk forever.

1035
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: And I one day I kind of pinned him against

1036
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: the wall in this conference room. I said, listen, while

1037
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: you were watching Barney drinking out of a purple cup,

1038
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 1: I was covering the war in El Salvador. Dude, okay,

1039
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 1: so give me a break for a minute. Okay, just chill.

1040
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: And then that guy came over. That guy became one

1041
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: of my biggest supporters. So one night I went he said,

1042
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: I've never been down to ground zero. He had never gone,

1043
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: you know, like you know, So one night I took

1044
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: him down and they were following me, and they just

1045
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: came up behind the car and I just jumped in

1046
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: front of their car and it said, come on, just

1047
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: you know. And then they, of course they took off,

1048
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 1: like what was I gonna do? They could have they

1049
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: could have done a doristuke on me for all I knew.

1050
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: But the point is that you have you have to

1051
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 1: stand up to these guys and and and the problem

1052
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: with the FBI, and I'll be brief. I know we're

1053
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: going way a field here, but the problem of these

1054
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: federal agencies when it comes to journalism, they they they

1055
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 1: they know that they have the power. Right, We're actually

1056
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: the journalists have the power. But what they do is

1057
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: they convinced even papers like the New York Times, which

1058
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: has a bureau which has a somebody in residence at

1059
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: the Southern District that's where this individual's office was, that

1060
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: read my book the first time and said there's nothing new,

1061
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 1: only to write the article about the superseding indictment. And

1062
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: the FBI is punitive. They go, if you, if you

1063
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 1: don't write the kind of story we want the next

1064
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: time we have an exclusive, you're not gonna get it.

1065
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: And so they get intimidated. You see what I mean that,

1066
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: oh you're not I'm gonna lose out and and and

1067
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: they divide and conquer, which is how all bullies operate.

1068
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: They divide and conquer. And whether when when journalists should

1069
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: stick together and go, no, we're not gonna be intimidated

1070
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: by that, you know, And so that that is almost

1071
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: more in sidious insidious because it's kind of like self,

1072
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: you're being chilled, but you're chilling yourself from coming forward,

1073
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? And that is uh,

1074
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: that's a that's an issue that I've observed over many decades.

1075
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 1: So these are legitimate. These are like journalistic war stories,

1076
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: and they're invaluable because we have this part of the

1077
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: reason we want to make this a two part of folks.

1078
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: We have a lot of folks in the audience today

1079
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: who themselves are budding or hopefully going to be budding

1080
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: investigative journalists or hoping to follow in a path like

1081
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: yours in the future. So they have a couple of

1082
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: questions that I think Matt Nolan I can kind of

1083
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: predict here. And one of the first there's a two

1084
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: part questions. One of the first is going to be

1085
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: what are your emmys for? That's gonna be the fan question.

1086
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 1: And then the second question is going to be What

1087
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: sort of advice do you have for anyone listening now

1088
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: who like you, wants to have a career speaking truth

1089
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 1: to power. All right, well, the first of the three

1090
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 1: these are three national Emmys. I actually was this the

1091
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: Station Award for w ABC Local. Um, so what happened

1092
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: with me is I went to Columbia Graduate School of Journalism,

1093
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: which is this remarkable, you know, one year master's program.

1094
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: It was back then a hundred of the greatest, uh

1095
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: brightest young people in the world, half of whom we're

1096
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,959
Speaker 1: from foreign countries. And you go there for a year,

1097
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: and uh, it's just it's just a chance to get

1098
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: to New York City, really, and so basically I then

1099
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 1: went to w n e T, the public TV flagship

1100
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: in New York as a producer, and I won a

1101
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: couple of local Emmy's there. And then I went to

1102
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: w ABC Local, which many people call eye witless news.

1103
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 1: It was pretty light, you know, in those days, but

1104
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: they allowed me to do some some pretty compelling investigative reporting.

1105
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: And Fordham so we had this thing called the Help Center,

1106
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: which is kind of a consumer ombudsman enterprise, and we

1107
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: had Fordham University law students, uh, at Fordham Law was

1108
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: right across from Lincoln Center from ABC, and so oh

1109
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 1: there was a great professor named Sheila Burnbaum, and she

1110
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: said to me, you know, Peter, you're gonna be doing

1111
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: this kind of work your whole career. You should get

1112
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 1: a law degree. And I go, well, thank you, that's good,

1113
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: thank you for that advice. She's now, I'm telling you

1114
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: you're gonna come up. You're gonna get sued for Live.

1115
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 1: But it's just the name through the beast and truth

1116
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: is an absolute defense. But you need to prepare yourself.

1117
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 1: I said, well, okay, she says. So I took the

1118
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: l s AT and I just barely got into Fordham

1119
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: Law School. And then the first year I went to

1120
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: night school and I almost flunked out. I got like

1121
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: a seventy two average because I was working all day

1122
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: long and I was exhausted. So I quit and I

1123
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: went to n y U that summer and then I

1124
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: finished in three I finished it four hum in three years.

1125
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: I got my j D, went back to ABC where

1126
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: I worked on and I did an investigation of an

1127
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 1: Arson ring in Chicago as a producer and that was

1128
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: the second Emmy that I did. And then I became

1129
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 1: a correspondent. I got an offer from Dan Rather to

1130
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: go to work on Sixty Minutes as a producer, and

1131
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: I basically used that to say to my buss On Weston,

1132
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: hey man, I'm gonna I'm gonna ankle this joint if

1133
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 1: you don't give me a shot, and if I'm terrible

1134
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: on camera, we'll drop Tom Jarrell into it, or somebody

1135
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 1: you know like that. We'll drop a legit voice, you know,

1136
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 1: into the thing. And so he said, all right. So

1137
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: I did this piece on unnecessary surgery in a southern

1138
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: in hospital and we got sued for fifty two million

1139
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: dollars one in Emmy one and Emmy it shut the

1140
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 1: hospital down. I was totally right, because why truth is

1141
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 1: an absolute defense. And I'll get to that in a

1142
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 1: minute of my advice to the to the young guns

1143
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 1: out there. And so we have this trial in the

1144
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 1: Ozark Mountains in federal courts. We had to change the

1145
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 1: venue from the town Boone County because they would have

1146
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 1: lynched us first rather than tried us. You know, it's

1147
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: like one of those situations. So we're in Fayetteville, where

1148
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 1: the university is, where they at least read you there

1149
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 1: your rights before they lench you. So anyway, so the

1150
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 1: trial goes on. There was a Reagan appointed judge, and

1151
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 1: we would have won an appeal because every little ruling

1152
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: was against us. But basically we you know, we won

1153
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: the case right. And the jury was out for like

1154
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: half an hour. So we're back in the hotel, in

1155
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: the hotel in town, celebrating, having a little champagne, and

1156
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 1: our our lead council was Buddy Sutton, who's the dean

1157
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: of the law school, and little rock Man glided. It

1158
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 1: was like Tommy Lee Jones in a white suit. He

1159
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: was class act. He was He was the primary hunsel.

1160
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 1: So we're in the hotel and the phone rings and

1161
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: it was ruined. Our ledge, the legendary president of ABC

1162
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: News and Sports, the man who came up with the

1163
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: line the thrill of victory the agony of defeat. Okay,

1164
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 1: he took over ABC News. He used to wear Safari

1165
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 1: jackets and and smoked Churchill cigars and he had a

1166
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 1: chauffeur driven jag. He was larger than life, but he

1167
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: created ABC News as we as it later became a

1168
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 1: great news entity. He got Barbara Walters, he got uh,

1169
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, you know, David Brinkley to come over. You

1170
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: know Peter Jennings. First they had the troika of three reporters,

1171
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: and then the great Peter Jennings got rest his soul

1172
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: World News tonight. So Rude Oiledge is on the phone.

1173
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 1: And whenever Ruin Oledge called, he had a red phone

1174
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 1: in every control room and it was never good news.

1175
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: He would always give notes, you know, like and so

1176
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: he I get on the phone and Ruined says, Peter,

1177
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 1: you know you've got some promise my wife. My my

1178
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: wife thinks you you got promised, like, oh, really, thank you.

1179
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: You've just gotten married to a beautiful young woman. And

1180
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 1: I said well, but he said, hey, uh man, you

1181
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 1: gotta you gotta learn this job because you're really terrible

1182
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: on camera. So we're gonna put you on nightline and

1183
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 1: you're gonna learn this job. And I said, oh, man, well,

1184
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 1: thank you. Run because he let everybody call him run.

1185
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 1: And then he said to me, and this is how

1186
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: he ended the call. If you had lost this case,

1187
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 1: your next job in broadcasting would have been on the

1188
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: window at Burger King. And he hung up. Okay, And

1189
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: I was like okay. But then I went to Nightline.

1190
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: I made my bones, and then I went to world

1191
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 1: News tonight at my own investigative unit. Bill Lord, the

1192
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 1: head of Nightline, came to the big show, the Jennings Show,

1193
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: and I, you know, I did some compelling investigative reporting

1194
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,439
Speaker 1: for X number of years. There. I met my now

1195
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: ex wife, Donna, who was this brilliant computer graphic designer,

1196
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 1: and we had our first child and we had some

1197
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: issues medically, so we I came to Hollywood too, in

1198
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 1: order to like make the same kind of money of

1199
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: our combined salaries UH gave us before without selling Heroin,

1200
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I wanted to do some

1201
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 1: kind of work and I always loved Hollywood. So I

1202
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 1: got to Michael Mann, the great Michael Man. He was.

1203
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 1: He already had Miami Vice as a hit, and then

1204
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: he was doing this new show called Crime Story. I

1205
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 1: covered the teamsters. I knew that, and so I got.

1206
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: I snuck onto the Universal lot one day, came out

1207
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: to l A and I got and he gave me.

1208
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 1: He said, you have five minutes to blow me back

1209
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 1: against the wall. And he laid back and with his

1210
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 1: protect Philip, and I just threw every proper nown of

1211
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:26,840
Speaker 1: my life at the guy. At the end, he goes, Okay, okay,

1212
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: I'll give you a story option teleplay. I said, what's that.

1213
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: He said, well, we'll pay you for the whole thing,

1214
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 1: but if we don't like your story, well that's it.

1215
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 1: Your career is over. I said, I'll take it. So

1216
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 1: he fortunately hired me on staff and I had a

1217
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: fifteen year career. But getting to young people who want

1218
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: to do this, Okay, before maybe ten years ago, I

1219
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: would have advised people starting print journalism because it's a

1220
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: great discipline. There is no print journalism is has been

1221
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 1: gutted essentially at the local level because local journalism you know,

1222
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 1: uh they say politics are all local journalism is local. Okay.

1223
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 1: The skill that you need to to to to write

1224
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: under pressure, covering event under daily deadline pressure, whether you're

1225
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 1: covering an accident or a trial or anything, is a skill.

1226
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 1: And you have your reporter's notebook and you learn how

1227
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 1: to do it under pressure, and you know, you write

1228
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 1: the story and you file it and the next day

1229
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: it starts all over again. Okay. So that is a

1230
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 1: fantastic discipline, local print journalism, but it's not always available

1231
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,439
Speaker 1: now because of like the Newport Daily News is owned

1232
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 1: by Ganet and you know, and it's like got half

1233
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 1: the staff that it used to have and it's not

1234
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: anywhere near as strong in terms of standing up to

1235
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 1: official authority as the Daily News when I work there.

1236
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 1: So what I would say the to do if you're

1237
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 1: interested in doing this, set up a set up a website.

1238
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 1: Have a website. I if you've got a Peter Lance

1239
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: dot com, I use a I use a word press

1240
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 1: site that that kind of is the same kind of

1241
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 1: journalistic front page is the Arizona Republic and a bunch

1242
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 1: of newspapers used. It's because I see myself still in

1243
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: that vein as a print reporter. But I have a website.

1244
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,920
Speaker 1: And after Trump got elected are actually right after you

1245
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:16,440
Speaker 1: got elected, I set up another website called Investigating Trump

1246
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: dot com that was a pass through site where I

1247
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 1: just curated all the best reporting, uh and you know,

1248
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 1: and and essentially I had to quit when I started

1249
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: doing this investigation of Duke because it was like owning

1250
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 1: an end you could never leave, you know, every day

1251
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: there'd been more reporting, so I pretty much stopped it.

1252
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 1: But that was what I did there because there neither

1253
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 1: of these sites were commercial. No ads is that I

1254
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 1: just would take the piece from the New York Times,

1255
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 1: and then I would have in the first paragraph i'd

1256
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 1: connected back to the original piece, and it always, you know,

1257
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 1: tweet about the piece, and the reporters would were grateful

1258
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: that they would get the extra coverage. Well, anyway, what

1259
01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 1: I would say to people right now, get a website,

1260
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 1: start reporting whatever your interest is, true crime, politics, whatever

1261
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 1: it is. But this is the most important thing you

1262
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 1: can do. Because the President Trump, you know, caused so

1263
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 1: much doubt in the public mind, called us the enemy

1264
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: of the people because there is this notion of fake news,

1265
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: because there's this terrible fracture in everybody's sense of reality

1266
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 1: about what is real and what isn't. You have to

1267
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 1: be scrupulous in your annotations, Okay, And when you do

1268
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 1: a story, if you go back and you look at

1269
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 1: Peter Lance dot com and I have a lot of

1270
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 1: my huffing to post stories there, you'll see links in

1271
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 1: all those stories to other entities. Because we stand on

1272
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 1: the shoulders of giants, and you have to You want

1273
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: to give credit where credit is due, right, You want

1274
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 1: to like say, okay, well I got this lead from

1275
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 1: so and so in the New York Times. The Washington Post.

1276
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 1: But then I've advanced that lead. If you do that,

1277
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: if you have a well designed website and your brief

1278
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 1: unlike me because I'm old, you know, and I talked forever,

1279
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: but if you're the kind of young person that admires brevity,

1280
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about TikTok brevity, but I'm talking about,

1281
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, like a typical story in the Daily Beast.

1282
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: You do that, and you you can make a name

1283
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 1: for yourself. And what if you're even if it's in

1284
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 1: the local town, you can win a Pulitzer Prize Now

1285
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 1: for a website, Okay, you know what I mean for

1286
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:27,680
Speaker 1: local reporting. You could do it. You could hit hit,

1287
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:29,800
Speaker 1: you know, and then you can go on to an

1288
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,839
Speaker 1: amazing career where people will actually pay you a salary

1289
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 1: if you want. But there's nothing as thrilling. I always

1290
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:39,679
Speaker 1: said this to my kids. You know, there's the worst

1291
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: tension in the world is having a rock push down

1292
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: on you as you're climbing up a cliff. It's harder

1293
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 1: to push the rock up the cliff. But there's a

1294
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 1: lot of freedom in that, you know. So at a

1295
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 1: certain point in my career I stopped doing hard news.

1296
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 1: I didn't want to take an assignment from the desk

1297
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: because I just go off and do that. The benefit

1298
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 1: it is it's six o'clock you file the story, and

1299
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 1: it's miller time you go to the bar or whatever.

1300
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 1: But investigative reporting you have to come up with the story,

1301
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 1: and they take longer to do, but there's so much

1302
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:16,960
Speaker 1: more rewarding and potentially have life changing, um you know results.

1303
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 1: I'll tell you. I know we gotta leave, but I'll

1304
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 1: tell you this one thing. Recently, I put together a

1305
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,160
Speaker 1: power point presentation for when I went to Newport on

1306
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 1: the tenth of December from my last big book signing,

1307
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 1: and because the Newport cops just folded the case so summarily,

1308
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 1: I wanted to add a little bit in the in

1309
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:36,880
Speaker 1: the power point key I used key point because I'm

1310
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 1: an Apple guy, and I wanted to add a little

1311
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,719
Speaker 1: bit of background on you know, where I had done

1312
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 1: where I came from my background. And I found a

1313
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,640
Speaker 1: story that I had done for World News Tonight on

1314
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 1: near mid air collisions. And this was in four and

1315
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:55,799
Speaker 1: President Reagan had fired all the pat Co nine thousand

1316
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 1: air traffic controllers who tried to unionize, and we were

1317
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 1: getting reply or it's anecdotally and a bunch of other

1318
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 1: news that there were near mid air collisions left and right,

1319
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:06,680
Speaker 1: and the definition of a near mid air collision when

1320
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:10,639
Speaker 1: two planes come within five hundred feet, okay, and they were.

1321
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 1: And so the Reagan administration was had a guy, Admiral

1322
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 1: Engen to the head of the f A, come on

1323
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 1: David Brinkley and say the number of near mid air

1324
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 1: collisions has been cut in half since we took over,

1325
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 1: and they came up with this two d and eighty

1326
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 1: whatever statistic. Okay, so we ABC. Let me spend three

1327
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 1: weeks on this story an eternity and I had a

1328
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 1: young assistant named Randy Pryor, and we basically got foy

1329
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:36,800
Speaker 1: at all of the near mid air collision reports from

1330
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 1: all the regional centers of the f A, and we

1331
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: proved that the number was actually doubled. And during the broadcast,

1332
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:47,280
Speaker 1: I'm in the control room because that's what we would do,

1333
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,600
Speaker 1: you know, when you had a piece on my my

1334
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 1: now ex wife Donna is down there doing the you know,

1335
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 1: computer graphics, and they get a phone call and literally

1336
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 1: the f when have you seen this happen in government lately?

1337
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 1: They actually did that. They were wrong during the broadcast,

1338
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:04,719
Speaker 1: and they readjusted the graphic at the end, and Jennings

1339
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,120
Speaker 1: announced it at the end that was not the most

1340
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:09,800
Speaker 1: important thing that happened. What the most important thing that

1341
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:13,080
Speaker 1: happened is I reported on a thing called tea cast,

1342
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 1: uh like a collision avoidance system that was a pilot

1343
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 1: program and a couple of planes that were at the time.

1344
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 1: And as a result of this piece that I did,

1345
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 1: the the Senate Oversight Committee pushed to get tea casts

1346
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: installed in all the airlines. And about twenty five years

1347
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 1: went by, you know, and I'm like driving along one

1348
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: day and I hear on CBS News that the number

1349
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,679
Speaker 1: of near mid air collisions has dropped to like zero

1350
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 1: because of tea casts. You know, It's an example of

1351
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 1: what happens when journalism is on an issue precisely, and

1352
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:49,840
Speaker 1: they captured the imagination of the public. The public puts

1353
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 1: pressure on people in power, and change happens. I don't

1354
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:56,760
Speaker 1: think we can leave on a stronger point than that.

1355
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 1: I want to make sure people. I mean said it

1356
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 1: many times on this episode already. Peter Lance dot com.

1357
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 1: The book is Homicide at rough Point. You can find

1358
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:09,800
Speaker 1: that on Amazon. I'm sure, that's the best fastest way

1359
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:11,559
Speaker 1: for anybody to get that. There's a link on my

1360
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:15,599
Speaker 1: website to it, but it's in hardcover, trade paper, Kindle

1361
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: e book, and audible. Yeah, and uh, Mr Peter Lance

1362
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,760
Speaker 1: did his own voice for his writing, so check that

1363
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:25,320
Speaker 1: out if you've enjoyed listening to him on this episode.

1364
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 1: I know you've got other stuff coming up, and you know,

1365
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 1: I would just say, if you're interested, please go to

1366
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:33,879
Speaker 1: Peter Lance dot com. You will see because there's upcoming

1367
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:36,840
Speaker 1: stuff that I don't want to spoil really here, but

1368
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 1: there's really interesting upcoming things from Peter Man. Just we

1369
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 1: can't thank you enough for your time. It's been a

1370
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 1: pleasure you guys that just went by like that to me.

1371
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:49,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what's gonna sound like to your listeners,

1372
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:51,840
Speaker 1: but I I'd love to do some other stuff with

1373
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: you on all this, you know, the road to nine

1374
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 1: eleven stuff, because it remains uh still like people really

1375
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:01,680
Speaker 1: don't understand and you know, they're all kinds of conspiracy

1376
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,800
Speaker 1: theories around the nine eleven attacks, seven World Trade. There's

1377
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting stuff that you know, you can

1378
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 1: prove that happened. And but I would love to explore

1379
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: that with you. And also I sent a mad a

1380
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 1: copy of my One of my two novels is called

1381
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:19,960
Speaker 1: A Stranger four or five six. It has to do

1382
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:23,799
Speaker 1: with serial killing, and I developed an expertise in that area.

1383
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:26,760
Speaker 1: I did a film executive produced a film called The

1384
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:30,920
Speaker 1: Riverman for A and E several years ago that was

1385
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:34,599
Speaker 1: all about how Ted Bundy, this is a true story,

1386
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:37,599
Speaker 1: helped to find the Green River Killer on his death

1387
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:40,680
Speaker 1: on death row of these two cops, Bob Keppel from

1388
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 1: the State of Washington went down there and basically solved

1389
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:49,439
Speaker 1: the Bundy murders in Washington on the on the eve

1390
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 1: of his execution, and so he did a movie about that.

1391
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 1: So that got me into the whole serial killer world.

1392
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 1: And I'm very critical of the vaunted FBI and the

1393
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:01,080
Speaker 1: behavioral analysis United KUA to go the silence of the

1394
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:05,439
Speaker 1: Lamb Suite, because you know, they've they've lost a lot

1395
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: of they've missed a lot of cases because of profiling,

1396
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 1: which is bedrock. Everybody thinks, oh, profiling, that's the basic Well,

1397
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 1: guess what. They don't want to get caught their human beings,

1398
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 1: and they change their m os and their profiles from

1399
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 1: time to time. And if you have that, if you're

1400
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:23,840
Speaker 1: excluding evidence, then that's what happened. Don't keep it all away, Peter.

1401
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 1: There's These are all conversations we need to have. Yes,

1402
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:32,400
Speaker 1: so so yes, as as you said, Matt, thank you

1403
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 1: so much. Peter Lance. The website is Peter Lance dot com.

1404
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:40,640
Speaker 1: We've talked in depth about the Doris Duke case, but

1405
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 1: make no mistake, folks, there's much much more to the story.

1406
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:48,639
Speaker 1: This is an ongoing story at this point. Uh, Peter,

1407
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:51,559
Speaker 1: you have a second book that you are working on.

1408
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: I don't know how you find the time in the day,

1409
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 1: but we have enormous respect for what you were doing.

1410
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:01,600
Speaker 1: And thank you as well for the clarion call, the

1411
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:05,760
Speaker 1: words of inspiration for the journalists in the audience with

1412
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:08,960
Speaker 1: us today. We can't wait to hear more and we

1413
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:11,960
Speaker 1: know that you will agree. So thank you once again.

1414
01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:16,560
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure, guys, Thank you so much. Well, Uh,

1415
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:22,040
Speaker 1: it's Christmas Eve, it is this is our Christmas Eve episode, Matt,

1416
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 1: I got so wrapped up in our conversation. Yeah, Hey,

1417
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,519
Speaker 1: all your future reporters out there and current ones and

1418
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 1: everybody else listening. Hey, guess what Merry Christmas? Yeah, I

1419
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 1: said it. Also happy holidays that too, Yeah, yeah, and

1420
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:43,120
Speaker 1: happy Friday if you're not in the holiday thing. Uh.

1421
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 1: We we wanted to thank everybody for the gift that

1422
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:51,679
Speaker 1: you gave us over here on the show. And uh,

1423
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,000
Speaker 1: you might be thinking I didn't get you guys anything,

1424
01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 1: you did. You give us your time and it means

1425
01:15:57,120 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 1: the world to us. We really can't over emphasize that.

1426
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 1: At We want to hear from you. We want to

1427
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:07,640
Speaker 1: hear for any budding journalists out there. We want to

1428
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 1: hear some of the stories you're working on. We want

1429
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:11,719
Speaker 1: to hear the ways in which you are speaking truth

1430
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:15,240
Speaker 1: to power. We try to be easy to find online.

1431
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:18,480
Speaker 1: Just hit us up on Facebook, hit us up on Twitter, Instagram.

1432
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 1: You can find us pretty easily. And if you say, hey,

1433
01:16:23,040 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 1: I listened to all your episodes about the scary rise

1434
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:29,519
Speaker 1: of the surveillance state via social media, I don't sip

1435
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 1: those social meds, then you can call us directly. You

1436
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:36,840
Speaker 1: can talk to us. Yeah, that's right, nobody's monitoring those

1437
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 1: phone calls. Just kidding. Yes they do, but it's okay.

1438
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:43,760
Speaker 1: They won't monitor this one. When you call us, our

1439
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:46,720
Speaker 1: number is one eight three three st d w y

1440
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 1: T k when you call in, give yourself a really

1441
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,439
Speaker 1: cool nickname. Let us know if we can use your

1442
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 1: message on the air and your voice and just say

1443
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:57,960
Speaker 1: whatever you want. You've got three minutes. They're yours. Just

1444
01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:00,240
Speaker 1: go wild with it where we can't wait to hear

1445
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:02,720
Speaker 1: from you. And if you do not like to use

1446
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:05,519
Speaker 1: your phone in that way, maybe you like to use

1447
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: your phone as an email device, you know that thing

1448
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 1: with electronic communications. You can also send us links. That way,

1449
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:15,920
Speaker 1: you can send us stories, any thoughts maybe won't fit

1450
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:19,080
Speaker 1: into that three minute voicemail. Send us everything you've got.

1451
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:22,280
Speaker 1: We cannot wait to read it. Miss We read everything

1452
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 1: we receive. Our email address is conspiracy at iHeart radio

1453
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:48,160
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff they don't want you to know is

1454
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from

1455
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:54,280
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1456
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.