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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much

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Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's give it up for the one

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Speaker 1: and only super producer, mister Max Williams. Yes, they called

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Speaker 1: me ben Uh George Noel. Still still we try to

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Speaker 1: be consistent with our our our names. I guess we've

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Speaker 1: got that going for us. Personalities different story, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: names remained the same they are. Zeppelin might say they didn't,

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Speaker 1: that was the song. They remained the same for them.

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Speaker 1: But you get the out there, and today we are

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Speaker 1: bringing a very special story to the world. This is

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Speaker 1: something that one of our colleagues, our pal Maya, had

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Speaker 1: introduced us to a while back. There's a brand new

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Speaker 1: podcast out in the world of iHeart. If you love

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History, you're gonna love this. And we decided instead

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Speaker 1: of just us talking about it, we would talk to

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Speaker 1: the source, Noel, the person who made the whole thing happen.

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Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians join us in welcoming Dan kit Roster.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, what an entrance. Thank you so much, what

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Speaker 1: an introduction. I'm so I'm very happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: I have to add too, you didn't do this alone.

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Speaker 1: You have some help from our former superproducer, Casey Pegram.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Casey brings it every time. I am merely

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Speaker 1: the announcer, but Casey is the whole football team getting

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Speaker 1: the podcast to the end zone. And thus that's a

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Speaker 1: great sports metaphor. I totally understand what you mean. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. More sports metaphors to come from

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Speaker 1: this homosexual throughout the podcast. Look, I learn all my

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Speaker 1: sports metaphors from listening to podcasts on the Ringer Network

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Speaker 1: where they talk about movies but can't help themselves but

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Speaker 1: make everything relating back to sports. So that's how I learned.

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Speaker 1: The lingo is from listening to the watch. Oh that's great,

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Speaker 1: And I am going to recuse myself from the sports

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Speaker 1: conversations because our pal Max has gotten me weirdly into

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Speaker 1: curling and that's the only thing I know about now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's don't worry about We've got a two part episode

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Speaker 1: on it. Everything you want to know. I want to

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Speaker 1: know everything about curling I could get into. I like

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Speaker 1: being the other guy. I really want to be the

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Speaker 1: other guy. I like sports where there's somebody is definitely

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Speaker 1: the athlete and then there's like another guy you know,

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Speaker 1: and that I feel like that's me and I appreciate

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Speaker 1: that relationship. Now, now it's it's interesting that you're talking

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Speaker 1: about team sports and there's a cool analog there with

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Speaker 1: your latest projects, feed Lana's fed Lana. But what some

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Speaker 1: people might not know is that before you ever got

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Speaker 1: into podcasting, you were you were and are an award

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Speaker 1: winning playwright as well as screenwriter. Could you tell us

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit about whose fed Lana is and

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Speaker 1: how you encountered this story and what led you to

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Speaker 1: explore this in multiple formats? Well, um, I would be

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Speaker 1: happy to um so because otherwise, okay, otherwise I just

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Speaker 1: you know, would I don't know, talk about my dog.

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Speaker 1: So stet Lana Alieva was the first and only daughter

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Speaker 1: of Joseph Stalin, who your listeners might know as Joseph

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Speaker 1: Stalin Um and the guy who was Stalin remember, the

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Speaker 1: Secretary General of the Soviet Union. So uh. Stet Lana

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Speaker 1: was born in the twenties, it's the nineteen twenty six

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Speaker 1: or nineteen twenty four, forgive me, and she was the

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Speaker 1: pride and joy of Joseph Stalin Um. And she also

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Speaker 1: had a mother, as you know, it tends to happen,

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Speaker 1: and her mother was Nadia Nadeshda Allelujeva and she committed

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Speaker 1: suicide when stet Lana was but six years old. Stealana

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Speaker 1: didn't know this. She was told at the time that

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Speaker 1: it was a pendicitis and she would find out ten

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Speaker 1: years later, and that would sort of start at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of sort of distancing from her dad, but she

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Speaker 1: would still pinball back and forth. And it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: you're saying Joseph Stalin wasn't entirely honest, So you know,

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Speaker 1: he was known to being kind of an ass but

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Speaker 1: to everybody, and in fact, you know, stet Lana wrestled

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Speaker 1: with that in her writing. And that's one of the

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Speaker 1: things that's so interesting about her as as a as

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Speaker 1: a person in history is that she knew the ills

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Speaker 1: and the terrors, and she also had this father figure

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Speaker 1: who she did love, and she wrestled with that and

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Speaker 1: she was very honest about that. That led her defection

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Speaker 1: when she finally left the USSR in nineteen sixty seven. Now,

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Speaker 1: the fun, weird, crazy dare I say, bizarre story about

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Speaker 1: stet Lana that got me really interested is. You know,

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Speaker 1: she had come to the United States. It sort of

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Speaker 1: right in the midst of the Cold War, and she

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Speaker 1: was an instant celebrity. She had a one point five

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Speaker 1: million dollar book deal. Her name was in all the papers,

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Speaker 1: and then she started receiving ovations, letters, telegrams, even gifts.

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Speaker 1: Very strange, very mysterious woman all the way from a

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Speaker 1: magical place called scott Still, Arizona. This woman really wanted

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Speaker 1: Speltlana to come and visit. And her name was Olgavana

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Speaker 1: Lasovich Hinsenburg Lloyd Wright, and she was the widow of

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Speaker 1: the deceased famed architect Frank Lloyd Wright. And she really

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Speaker 1: wanted spel Lana to come and visit their desert compound.

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Speaker 1: And this is where Frank Lloyd Wright's disciples as architects

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Speaker 1: still lived in communion, making art and having a blast.

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Speaker 1: It's a little culty. Well this, I mean, you could

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Speaker 1: say one could say that, and one could get in

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Speaker 1: trouble saying that. I think that's like, that's a big word,

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Speaker 1: and I've got certainly got in trouble for saying it

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Speaker 1: as well. But pretend you didn't know that word. Pretend

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Speaker 1: you it come without judgment, and you show up, you're

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Speaker 1: in the You've you've fled Soviet Russia, and you are

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Speaker 1: now in the middle of the desert, in the middle

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Speaker 1: of Arizona. And there is a woman named Olga Vanna

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Speaker 1: who believes then you are the reincarnation of her dead daughter,

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Speaker 1: because her dead daughter's name was also spet Lana and

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Speaker 1: old and spet Lana's grandmother's name was Olga, and Olga

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Speaker 1: Vanna actually is Olga Ivanova. And so Frank Lloyd Wright's

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Speaker 1: widow is believes that Joseph Stalin's daughter is the reincarnation

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Speaker 1: of her dead daughter, and then lures her into her

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Speaker 1: architecture compound and then marries her off to her dead

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Speaker 1: daughter's ex husband named William Wesley Peters, and so she

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Speaker 1: then becomes spet Lana Peters. Not that spet Lana Peter

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Speaker 1: is not the first one, the second one. So it

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Speaker 1: gets very it gets it gets very confusing. This whole

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Speaker 1: thing is just an exercise and confusion, and that confusion

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Speaker 1: is what I've spen like close to a decade immersed in.

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Speaker 1: So that's sort of that's that's that's the overarching story,

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Speaker 1: and it must have been this I imagine that led

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Speaker 1: that led you to recognize set Lana as your greatest

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Speaker 1: muse is that you read about this and you were like,

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Speaker 1: I get it. That's everybody's been in that situation. Well, well,

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Speaker 1: I think it's kind of the opposite, is like I

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Speaker 1: have I don't get it. I don't get why you

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Speaker 1: would like flee Soviet Russia only find yourself basically giving

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Speaker 1: up your identity subsumed inside of, you know, a community

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Speaker 1: where everybody is living and working together. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: left socialism to you know, become a success in capitalism,

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Speaker 1: and now you know her money was drained by it,

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Speaker 1: so now you're giving it all a way to be

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Speaker 1: part of this other thing. So I was just mystified

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Speaker 1: by spet Lana. And I think like as a writer,

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Speaker 1: you know, you go you walk towards characters and stories

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Speaker 1: where you just have like the biggest questions, you know,

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Speaker 1: because if you know the answer, it's kind of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I know why someone would do that, Like I know

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Speaker 1: why someone wading a sandwich, you know, like they're hungry

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Speaker 1: and so there's no story there. Well, actually getting a

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Speaker 1: sandwich can be kind of sandwich is pretty good. Let's

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Speaker 1: stay on that. Sandwich guy for a second. No, but

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Speaker 1: do you think maybe you ask why, um, going from

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Speaker 1: the socialist country to a commune, which isn't communism exactly,

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Speaker 1: but there is a one for all kind of mentality.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there that was a comfortable thing for Svelana.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily comfortable, but she did. And she writes

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Speaker 1: about this um in an unpublished book that we were

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Speaker 1: able to find. She writes about how it wasn't necessarily comfortable,

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Speaker 1: but she recognized it and that was sort of this

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Speaker 1: that recognition was something I'm sure actually you know, when

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Speaker 1: she writes about it, it's it's in retrospect, so a

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Speaker 1: lot of crazy stuff happened, and so she, uh, that

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Speaker 1: chapter of her life was not one that she looked

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Speaker 1: on fondly, although there are elements, there are amazing things

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Speaker 1: that happened, But at any rate, she's critical of tally Esen,

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Speaker 1: which is the name of the frankly right fellowship world

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Speaker 1: tally Esen, which literally means shining brow for all of

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Speaker 1: your Welsh listeners, uh you know, hashtag Welsh listeners, hashtag Welsh.

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Speaker 1: So you know, um, I think it was probably like

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Speaker 1: maybe not comfortable, but like if you're in I don't know,

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Speaker 1: if you've ever dated someone who sucks and then you

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Speaker 1: go ahead and like date the same kind of person again,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, I've learned nothing like That was probably

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Speaker 1: her experience, Like she knew how to be inside of

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Speaker 1: a subservient universe and she was probably kind of tired

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Speaker 1: of it. Now we also know, and this is I

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Speaker 1: hope this isn't too big of a spoiler, but we

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Speaker 1: also just even from the first episode, from the jump,

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Speaker 1: as they say that Svetlana is being pursued by a

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Speaker 1: very powerful intelligence agency, but some what we would recognize

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Speaker 1: as the KGB. Obviously we referred to that in English.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel that there was um a serious threat

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Speaker 1: to her from the KGB? Were they just monitoring her

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Speaker 1: and if if whether or not that was a real threat.

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Speaker 1: Did she perhaps feel some sort of sense of protection

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Speaker 1: by entering this this commune out there in Arizona. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, so when she first arrived, So

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Speaker 1: aside from just getting out of Russia, which is its

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Speaker 1: own insane story, um, which is an episode one and

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Speaker 1: it's three continents and it's it's insane. We've got to

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Speaker 1: hear it though, now that now that you brought it

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Speaker 1: out there, we got to hear just just like a

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Speaker 1: just like some of the high level, the high level.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. So she has three husbands in Russia

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Speaker 1: and then she divorces them all, and then she falls

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Speaker 1: in love with an Indian communist by the name of

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Speaker 1: Brajesh Singh, and she is not allowed to marry him

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Speaker 1: for all sorts of fabulous racist reasons. This is in

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Speaker 1: a period of in Russian history called the Thaw, and

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Speaker 1: there's anyway Krushchev doesn't let her marry, but she does

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Speaker 1: marry him spiritually. She feels as though she's married to him,

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Speaker 1: and I there's some questions whether they actually got married

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Speaker 1: in a church or not, but at any rate, she

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Speaker 1: considers him her husband. And and then he dies, and

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Speaker 1: where the Soviet government was not gonna let her marry him,

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Speaker 1: they do let her go to his Indian village called

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Speaker 1: Kalankar Khala lan Kankar at the floor of the Ganches

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Speaker 1: River in India. This will be the first time that

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Speaker 1: Stetlan has ever left Soviets oil. So she has been

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Speaker 1: pushed around by the Soviets a lot in her life.

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Speaker 1: She has two kids, but she's okay. She's going on

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Speaker 1: a trip to India, and that's all she thinks about.

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Speaker 1: She lands in India and she thinks she's going straight

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Speaker 1: to this village, straight to meet Singh's family, but instead

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Speaker 1: she's hold up in a hotel room with no telephone

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Speaker 1: for two weeks. She's pushed around. She really is like,

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Speaker 1: she's up to here, you know what I mean, Like

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Speaker 1: I mean, and listeners, I am gesturing to my neck,

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Speaker 1: so you know, I mean, you don't want to get

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Speaker 1: a Soviet up to hear. So she finally makes it

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Speaker 1: to the Gangie sprinkles her lover's ashes, and she is

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Speaker 1: feeling so at peace in India. She wants to stay there,

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Speaker 1: but they, the Soviets, want to get her back. She

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Speaker 1: is still Stalin's daughter, She still is a totem, she

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Speaker 1: still means something, and so she kind of now just

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Speaker 1: wants to, you know, get out of there, and so

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Speaker 1: she toys around with various places to go. Finally lands

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Speaker 1: on America. It happens to be like a day or

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Speaker 1: two before she's supposed to leave. She sneaks out of

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Speaker 1: her hotel room. She hails a cab and she goes

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Speaker 1: fright up to the US embassy and she says, my

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Speaker 1: name is Steblana Aliyev, I'm Joseph Stalin's daughter, and I

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Speaker 1: want to defect to the United States of America. What

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Speaker 1: ends up happening from that moment is batch or feastings.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you're saying, because she ends up

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Speaker 1: being flown the US doesn't water because they're in the

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Speaker 1: middle of an arms deal with Russia, so she ends

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Speaker 1: up being flown to Rome. But then the Romans don't

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Speaker 1: want her, so she's never actually allowed to touch Roman soil.

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Speaker 1: So she sits in like this weird apartment for a while,

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Speaker 1: and then they fly her off to Switzerland. But while

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Speaker 1: she's the paparazzi is all over her. She's stuck in Switzerland,

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Speaker 1: and then she finally makes it all the way to

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Speaker 1: the US un day, where she arrives this instant celebrity,

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Speaker 1: all the while smuggling this memoir of life growing up

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Speaker 1: under Stalin called Twenty Letters to a Friend, which winds

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Speaker 1: up being the way that she gets into the US

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Speaker 1: under a work visa. It's an even nuttier story than that,

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Speaker 1: So I A'm gonna say, like, listen, listen to the

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Speaker 1: pod dude. But you know that is like the that's

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Speaker 1: I mean, every chapter spell on his life has these

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Speaker 1: like highs and lows that are just mesmerizing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she accomplished a lot in her life. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned how doting her father was on her,

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Speaker 1: and there's pictures you can find online of him like

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Speaker 1: cradling her when she was, you know, in her like

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Speaker 1: early teens or maybe you know, a little younger than that.

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Speaker 1: But this obviously must have been a huge betrayal or

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Speaker 1: perceived as that from Stalin. Can you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about how he reacted and you know what this

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Speaker 1: was like and how it kind of up the stakes? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, well he was very dead at the time,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sure that he was pissed, but he's not

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Speaker 1: gonna let the scheduling of mortality getting no timeline. Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is okay, of course that was a stupid not

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Speaker 1: a stupid question, not a stupid question at all. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because also, like, while Stalin may have been dead, Stalinism

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Speaker 1: certainly did not die. Um. And so you know, Stalin

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Speaker 1: dies in nineteen fifty three, as famously depicted in the

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Speaker 1: Death of Stalin UM and Uh, it's it's nineteen sixty seven.

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Speaker 1: Once that wanna makes her way over to the United States,

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Speaker 1: I might be getting if it's sixty seven and sixty

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Speaker 1: eight when she it's either sixty seven sixty eight or

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Speaker 1: sixty sixty sixty seven. Um, better than me. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even know Stalin was dead. Well well, to your defense,

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Speaker 1: thole that like that was a closely guarded secret as

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Speaker 1: we also Yes Stalin, yes, okay, we got the reference

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Speaker 1: in we were talking about that off air. They got me,

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Speaker 1: They tricked me. That's I blame the Soviets. But but

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Speaker 1: the original question was you know, the kg the threat

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Speaker 1: of the KGB and um. You know, so the KGB

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Speaker 1: was definitely involved in all aspects of stet Lana's life,

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Speaker 1: who she could marry, where she could go, who she

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Speaker 1: could be friends with, um, and certainly after she left.

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Speaker 1: You know, we don't talk about this much in the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Excuse me, I just burped on a podcast first time

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Speaker 1: for everything Ring the Bell SI nickname ding Um. But

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the unintended consequences of stet Lana

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Speaker 1: leaving was that she had a lot of very close

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Speaker 1: friends and stet Lana also partied down with all of

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Speaker 1: the dissidents. She was interested in people of all walks

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Speaker 1: of life. She was interested in artists and writers and

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Speaker 1: academics and thinkers. And so when she left, the people

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Speaker 1: who who are really targeted were were her close friends

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Speaker 1: who also didn't have a lot of capital themselves to

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Speaker 1: sort of stay out of the limelight. So there's this

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Speaker 1: fascinating I mean, this is a ridiculous history. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that I offer because I would love to know more

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Speaker 1: about her. There is half black, half Jewish tennis champion

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Speaker 1: ethno musicologist named Lily Golden who love me. Stop by

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Speaker 1: Lily real quick, because one thing I love about the

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Speaker 1: natural course of this story is that at points it

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Speaker 1: does sound like mad lib improv, you know, like we're

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Speaker 1: pulling from a hat. So could you give us the

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Speaker 1: rundown of this person again? Their descriptors, So this is

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Speaker 1: set Lana's who. I believe Set Lana's best friend is

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Speaker 1: who she refers to as Bertha in her book, which

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Speaker 1: is a great chosen name. But her name was Lily Golden,

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Speaker 1: and Lily was Her parents were both American, they were socialists.

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Speaker 1: Her her father was black, her mother was Jewish. I

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Speaker 1: guess during like uh, you know, the at some point,

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Speaker 1: like during a Red scare in the thirties, they ran

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Speaker 1: off to Russia. Had Lily she became like a Soviet

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Speaker 1: tennis champ and then became like an ethno musicologist and

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Speaker 1: what and then became Joseph Stalin's daughter's best friend. And

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Speaker 1: she's just one of you know you look, uh. Spetlana

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Speaker 1: was also like dear dear friends with Pulstoy's grandson um

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Speaker 1: and all sorts of really interesting people that intersected with

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Speaker 1: history and a lot of fascinating ways. And so these

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Speaker 1: were the people who the KGB targeted, like Lily Golden

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Speaker 1: like wasn't able to get on a flight after spet

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Speaker 1: Lana defected, and certainly speed Lana's children. She left a

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Speaker 1: twenty year old son and a sixteen year old daughter, um,

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Speaker 1: and she didn't give them any warning. They found out

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Speaker 1: like uh from the KGB that the that their mother

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Speaker 1: had defected. So they were also targeted and watched, and

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Speaker 1: that was a horrible unintended consequence um that you know,

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Speaker 1: for spet Lana to flee, you know, she did leave

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Speaker 1: people sort of vulnerable. And then you know there's stories

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Speaker 1: that we hear it, and they don't feature so heavily

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Speaker 1: in our podcast, and not because they weren't true, but

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Speaker 1: they're sort of hard to verify. There was shortly after

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Speaker 1: she had come to the United States. She was staying

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Speaker 1: at the house of George Kennon, who was an ambassador

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Speaker 1: to Russia during Stalin's era, and Kennon was considered the

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Speaker 1: architect of the Cold War. He is a major figure

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Speaker 1: in history, and he kind of became spelt Lana's godfather

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Speaker 1: when she arrived in America. And so he is no

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Speaker 1: longer alive. He's just as dead as Stalin is, but

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Speaker 1: his daughters are very much alive. Joan and Grace, and

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Speaker 1: I got to have a couple of zooms with Joan

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Speaker 1: and Grace who each had wild stories and they're like

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Speaker 1: they both had very different relationships with Spetlana. Joan was

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Speaker 1: like buddy buddy, Grace had this like, uh, Stetlana sort

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Speaker 1: of treated her a little bit like the maid m

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Speaker 1: So it's funny to hear like the different experiences. But

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Speaker 1: both Grace and Jone told me that while Stetlana was

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Speaker 1: staying with them, on one day in particular, you know

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Speaker 1: this farm in the middle of central Pennsylvania. All of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, these men in black coats just started like

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Speaker 1: coming to the door and knocking on it, and they

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Speaker 1: asked if stet Lana was there, and and then quickly

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Speaker 1: like fled back. So Stelana was always sort of haunted

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Speaker 1: by the prospect of KGB agents, And certainly later in

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Speaker 1: the podcast, we're going to get to a period of

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Speaker 1: time where stet Lana gets wrapped up in a KGB plot,

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Speaker 1: which is on internet and in history and certainly featured

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Speaker 1: in Rosemary Sullivan's amazing book Stalin's Daughter, which everyone should read.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not going to spoil it for our podcast.

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Speaker 1: You'll have to tune in. Not yet. You have to

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Speaker 1: go on the ride with this. Also also peek behind

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Speaker 1: the curtain. Okay, I know we gotta get to the the character,

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Speaker 1: but peak behind the scenes then, folks, we also hear

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Speaker 1: ridiculous history. We don't know how all the story shakes out.

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Speaker 1: We are going to be riding along with you, but

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Speaker 1: I like, I like where you're going with that, Noel,

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Speaker 1: because we talked about it a little off air. There's

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Speaker 1: a thing. There's a part where you describe dan Um.

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Speaker 1: You describe speed Lana as like the most famous defector

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Speaker 1: at least as far as as the Western world is concerned,

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Speaker 1: which makes sense, you know, it's it's the daughter of

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Speaker 1: a ruler basically. Uh, but what what was the typical

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Speaker 1: I don't know what's the best way to phrase this, Noel.

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Speaker 1: What do we need to know about the island? Maybe

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Speaker 1: just a little scene setting for the time, um as

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Speaker 1: to what it would have meant um to be a defector,

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Speaker 1: h and why maybe someone less famous than speed Lana

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Speaker 1: would have defected, And it's what relations were like and

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Speaker 1: kind of this historical period we're talking about. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I want to say that, like when it comes

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Speaker 1: to I just want to preface my own ignorance, which

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Speaker 1: I think is important in life. I know a bit,

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Speaker 1: but that's our whole thing on this show. So I

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Speaker 1: want to preface my own ignorance and also my own subjectivity. Right.

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Speaker 1: So I'm coming to this as like an American who

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Speaker 1: was like schooled in the fact that like America is good,

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Speaker 1: Russia is bad. America win and Russia is lose, you know.

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Speaker 1: But to be fair, there were a lot of terrible

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Speaker 1: things about the Stalinist regime and essentially coming out of

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Speaker 1: life from the Czars. So this is going back a

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Speaker 1: little bit in nineteen seventeen or nineteen sixteen, nineteen seventeen,

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Speaker 1: when the Bolsheviks the Revolutionaries took power and knocked out

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Speaker 1: the Czars, people's lives were really really terrible. Nicholas A

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Speaker 1: consolidated power in a way that like gave such little

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Speaker 1: freedom to the average Russian. UM. And they were, I

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Speaker 1: mean the peasant they were starving, UM, they were uneducated,

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Speaker 1: even though they were they were very literate, but there

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Speaker 1: there was not schooling and it was it was a

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Speaker 1: very horrible place to grow up. UM. And so the

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Speaker 1: Bolsheviks really wanted to share the wealth. And I have

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Speaker 1: to say, like, as like, you know, as a lefty, progressive,

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Speaker 1: socialistic kind of kind of person, I'm like, that's awesome.

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Speaker 1: But what ended up happening is um, in order to

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Speaker 1: lead you know, more than a hundred countries with more

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Speaker 1: than a hundred languages and uh and uh consolidate like

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Speaker 1: the ussr UM, they really everyone had to. They realized

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Speaker 1: the way to do it is through you know, fascism,

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Speaker 1: were not fascism really but like totalitarianism and falling behind

396
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Speaker 1: one big face and that one big face with Stalin

397
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Speaker 1: and um that was built by Stalin and also by

398
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Speaker 1: as Politburo. So there's all these people who our feature

399
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: and hilariously and Death of Stalin who are also like

400
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Speaker 1: the reason that we know Joseph Stalin and that we

401
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Speaker 1: think communism is really bad because there was the currency

402
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Speaker 1: was betrayal. If you were a dissident, if you spoke

403
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Speaker 1: out against the government, you were sent to the gulags,

404
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Speaker 1: you were killed, your family was watched, they were killed.

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Speaker 1: And not to mention the fact that they're just also

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Speaker 1: it was there were a lot of people. There was

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Speaker 1: a ship ton of people, and so in order to

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Speaker 1: make sure that there was like a potato for everybody,

409
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Speaker 1: Stalin made sure there was a potato for sometimes nobody.

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Speaker 1: So there were just famines everywhere in order to make

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Speaker 1: sure that Moscow was able to lead this communism for

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Speaker 1: the first time. So it was nineteen eighty four. It

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Speaker 1: was neighbors spying on neighbors. Information was this currency that

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Speaker 1: you could use against people, and so even folks who

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Speaker 1: who made it inside of the government were subjected to this.

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Speaker 1: And so you see it in Death of Stalin, but

417
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Speaker 1: you also see it inside of Stalin's own family, so

418
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Speaker 1: stet Lana's uncles and aunts are subject to being locked

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Speaker 1: up in the gulagh or even murdered. Um. Stet Lana's brother,

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Speaker 1: her older brother who she loved the most, named Yakov,

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Speaker 1: enlisted in the Russian Army during World War Two. He

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Speaker 1: was captured by a Pow camp when Stalana was sixteen

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty two, and Stalin was given the option

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Speaker 1: to trade for him, and Salm was like, no, definitely not.

425
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: I don't want anyone thinking that I treat my family

426
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: any differently. And Yakov was murdered in the Pow camp,

427
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: you know, and you know that's something. Maybe there's some

428
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: honor there, maybe maybe there's not, but you just get

429
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: the sense that you know, Stalin was there was paranoia,

430
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 1: there was vindictiveness, and the country was sort of ruled

431
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 1: out of for you know, for better or for worse.

432
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: It was ruled out of his image and his likeness

433
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: to the point where when he dies, there's like, uh,

434
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: there's I forget how many people want to be killed.

435
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: But like there was a a march, you know, in

436
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: honor of Stalin Um, but there's there was some traffic

437
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: jam and like thousands of people were killed in this

438
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,479
Speaker 1: traffic jam, and it wasn't even a protest against him.

439
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: It was just like these people are everywhere, to kill them, um.

440
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: And so it's something really hard to imagine. But what's

441
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: fascinating about also such a suppressive government is that nothing

442
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: breeds art like suppression. And there are artists who are

443
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: making work, who are smuggling stories out, um, not on

444
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: mass I'm not saying that, like, I'm not saying that

445
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,959
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, there's all this great Soviet era descendent

446
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: art like there isn't but there. But people were writing things,

447
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: as they said, for the drawer. So Stelana was one

448
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: of them. She wrote this memoir about growing up under

449
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: Stalin's rule and coming to terms with the fact that

450
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: her horrible was that her horrible huh yeah, that her

451
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: horrible was you know, a father um. And that to

452
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: me is also really interesting. You know that, like there's

453
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: a resilience amongst the Russian people for you know, centuries

454
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: of creating creating art in these extreme circumstances, and that

455
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: is that is also part of the story. It's interesting too,

456
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: just that whole concept, and Casey Pegram would be happy

457
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: with this topic. Um. You know, filmmakers, for example, like Tarkovsky,

458
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: you know, we're getting financing from the government to make

459
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: these films that were supposedly insert us of the state,

460
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the image that they were projecting,

461
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: but secretly there were these hidden messages you know in

462
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: films like Stalker or even the Silaris that that were

463
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: kind of patently anti uh Russia. Uh. And they eventually

464
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: kind of caught on and then he had to get

465
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: out of dodge as well. Yeah, I mean, well, and

466
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: that's also you know, and and that's what Tartakowsky has

467
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: when is he the fifties, sixties, like like through the seventies,

468
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: I mean through yeah, you know, yeah, into the eighties. Sorry,

469
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: you even think of like Nilosh Foreman, who was you

470
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: know in uh he was? Who is check? I think?

471
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: Or I forget, But like even our modern filmmakers were

472
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: still running away from it and like inserting their messages inside.

473
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean there's a kind of bravery that

474
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: I you know that as an American artist, um, in

475
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: the twenty first century, you know that I take in

476
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: my in my place of freedom, there's there is pushback

477
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: and there are people who don't like your work. But

478
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: I haven't experienced that that kind of suppression coming at

479
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: me and finding those ways to still get my voice

480
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: and my story out there. And so you know, I

481
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: looked at those writers and those artists with real admiration. Absolutely,

482
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 1: I mean, how well said, because that's something where, you know,

483
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: it always strikes me. One of my old professors a

484
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: long time ago, I don't always say how long ago

485
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: told me that told me that it. How did they

486
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: put it? They said? You know, I've always found it

487
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: hilarious that Russian authors are better writers in English than

488
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: most English authors. And that's and that's because many times

489
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: they had a life on the line situation like one

490
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: could die or be a race for the sin of

491
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: creative expression? Does that Russian pros also like translate really

492
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: well into English in a sort of unusual or uncann

493
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 1: art form. Man, for sure, I mean all translation is

494
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: and fellow ridiculous historians, I think, uh, null you and

495
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: Max and I are we're having a little bit of

496
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: a tough time with this because we don't like, we

497
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: don't know the strokes of the story that have yet

498
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: to been have been told. Uh, And we're having a

499
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: hard time, not asking for spoilers, right, So we have

500
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: to say, you know, this is something that a lot

501
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 1: of a lot of people are not aware of, and

502
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: it's so strange to realize, you know, how close history

503
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: is to the present and how many you know, to

504
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: look back and say, okay, the most famous defector in

505
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: the world at the time, and now you know what.

506
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: I first heard about this story. It was through your

507
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 1: podcast and I thought, okay, who is fed Lata. I

508
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: didn't even know, you know, I had I understood that

509
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: Joseph Stalin. Joseph Stalin was a bad guy, you know,

510
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: but that was like my Wikipedia paragraph of knowledge. Well

511
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: interesting enough, when spelt Lana defects in India, she goes

512
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: up to you know, she goes up to them, to

513
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: a marine at the US embassy and she's like, I'm

514
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: Joseph Stalin's daughter, and like, does Joseph Stalin have a daughter?

515
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: They didn't know? I mean, it's like they didn't know then,

516
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: we don't know now. Um. You know, I find myself

517
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: to be really grateful to be part of like a

518
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: small group of people who are excited by the story

519
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: of Joseph Stalin's daughter. So plugging Rosemary Sullivan and her

520
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: book Stalin's Daughter, plugging Roger Friedlan and Harold Dalman's book

521
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: The Fellowship, which covers Tally Essen and they and their

522
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: encounter with spelt Lanaum. But also like just two days ago,

523
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: I got a DM because now I'm on Instagram, I know,

524
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, just it's uh, yeah, you know, she's

525
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: this thing I do. UM. But I got a DM

526
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: from like a playwright in San Francisco who was like,

527
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,719
Speaker 1: I love your podcast. I wrote a play that had

528
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: spel Lana and it years ago. And so there's this like,

529
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not I am not the first person

530
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: to be interested in spe Lana, but we are like

531
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: a small little tribe, and it's really fun to you know,

532
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: be meeting people who also encountered her or or also

533
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: think that the story is worthy. So oh and also

534
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: a huge plug to the first article that I ever

535
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: read about it, which is by a guy named Nicholas

536
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: Thompson who was who was a freelance writer at the

537
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: time and now as the editor in chief of The

538
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: Atlantic magazine, which is really cool. And I got to

539
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: meet him. You know, it's like it's like, oh my God,

540
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: like everybody loves Spelana. Um so, and now we have

541
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: joined that tribe. You are in it. You are set

542
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: one nights. Here we go nights and we want we

543
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: want you, we want you to check out this show

544
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: to folks, because I think it's safe to say that

545
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: Dan tells the story unique way, in a way that

546
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: personally I never could. So along for the ride, Dan,

547
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: Can you tell people where to learn more about your work,

548
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: where to where to find you, perhaps on that shiny

549
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: new Instagram and uh and can you tell people maybe

550
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: where to find the podcast as well? Yeah, So the

551
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: podcast is called set Lana stet Lana. The name is

552
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: so nice. We say it twice and it's got exclamation

553
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: points after each name because I'm loud. Um and uh.

554
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: And you can find that on Iheartraate, the iHeartRadio app,

555
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. You can

556
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram at Dan's Stories. Um and more

557
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: about my work I have UM. I'm working on the

558
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: adaptation of Eduard Louise memoir History of Violence that was

559
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: just announced that it's a beautiful, powerful mem and that's

560
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 1: going to be a shot at the end of this year.

561
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: It'll be in German, and so that'll be a thing.

562
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: And I don't speak German. I don't speak German, but

563
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: someone's translating it and I'm gonna imagine that they're gonna

564
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: do it a decent job. And what else am I doing?

565
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. I do a lot of theater. I

566
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: moved to Philly and which is my hometown, and I'm

567
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: just excited to like meet other writers and theater artists

568
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: who are just trying to like understand the universe by

569
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: bringing us all together through stories. So I'd like to

570
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: connect to people and say I and you can DM me,

571
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: and my husband Jordan is getting me to respond, so

572
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 1: you know, if you don't hear from me, Jordan is saying, damn,

573
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: respond and I'm saying, yes, I will, and then he's saying, no,

574
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: you're gonna do it now or later. And he's probably

575
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: listening to me right now because he's downstairs and I

576
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: love him very much and just he's a part of this.

577
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: So if you're messaging me your message, Jordan, you know,

578
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: and that's that's your choice. Well, um, I for one,

579
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: I'm excited to dig in to the podcast. I think

580
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: what is episode three is publishing Round about the time

581
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: of this episode, episode five. So we are we are

582
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,439
Speaker 1: five of ten and then we're gonna take a week

583
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: off and then we'll be back with UH with with six, seven, eight,

584
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: and nine and ten um afterwards. I imagine it probably

585
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: ends on a pretty there's a cliffhanger there, so I'm

586
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: excited to experience that for myself as well. Um. Well,

587
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: thanks again for for joining us and sharing Svetlana story

588
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: with us and UH and the world. Dan, Kate roster

589
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:47,479
Speaker 1: Uhtlata Lata, you can find it anywhere. As Dan said,

590
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: we want to thank you Dan, and we also want

591
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: to thank our super producer, mister Max Williams. We gotta

592
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: thank the one and only Casey Pegrom. I'm so glad

593
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: that like, we can't get away from him, Noel, we can't.

594
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: We can't get away from k Casey is perpetually on

595
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: the case. Well we're not around. Yeah, he can't get

596
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: away from us. I guess if we're being fair, we're

597
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: probably the pursuers in that, in that relationship. But but

598
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: thank you to everybody tuning in. We'd love to hear

599
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 1: your opinions of the show. Yeah, and if you want

600
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: to give us your opinions. We're still in kind of

601
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: social media limbo for the show, but you can find

602
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 1: me and Ben and Max as individuals. I am exclusively

603
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 1: an instagrammer. You can find me at how Now Noel

604
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: Brown and I am calling myself in a burst of

605
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: creativity at Ben Bolan on Instagram and Eppen bollin hsw

606
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: on Twitter. That's where you can get it beside behind

607
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: the scenes, look at the various ill advised secret projects

608
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: misadventures I'm always cooking up. As Elon Musk would say,

609
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: the biggest advantage of Twitter, of course, is that Max

610
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: Williams is on it, and that's where you can find. Yes,

611
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: you can find my technically not dead Twitter account at

612
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: etail on to score Max Williams. There. It is more

613
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: sports metaphors for for the people who bring it home

614
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,720
Speaker 1: hal halftime Dubs. That's my new nickname for you, curly

615
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: get it in the hole. There we go. Do do

616
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: the do the sports so well? Do the sports. That's it.

617
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: That's all. Yeah, that's all everybody can ask for our Well,

618
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: we will see you next time, folks. For more podcasts

619
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts

620
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,