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Speaker 1: Ty Evans is one of the country's top mule trainers

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Speaker 1: and clinicians, and his journey with this misunderstood animal, the mule,

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Speaker 1: has changed his life and through working with him, he's

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Speaker 1: learned what true leadership is. Yeah, through training a mule.

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Speaker 1: I think we're all going to learn something on this one.

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Speaker 1: And hey, it's twenty twenty six. I'm ready to be

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Speaker 1: something different, to look at life in a new way,

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Speaker 1: and to become the person I've always known I should be.

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Speaker 1: I think you're going to be surprised by this episode,

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Speaker 1: and I really doubt that you're going to want to

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Speaker 1: miss this one.

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Speaker 2: There's a quote he would quote it a lot, but

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Speaker 2: I learned later that it was a ray Hunt quote.

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Speaker 2: They know if you know, and they know if you

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Speaker 2: don't know. That might sound like a puzzle to some

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Speaker 2: people listening, but what I've come to find is, say

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Speaker 2: the mule or the horse, they are aware of your awareness.

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Speaker 2: They know what you're paying attention to more or less.

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Speaker 1: My name is Klay Nukem and this is the Bear

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Speaker 1: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search

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Speaker 1: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the

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Speaker 1: story of Americans who live their lives close to the land,

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Speaker 1: presented by FHF Gear, American made, purpose built hunting and

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Speaker 1: fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the

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Speaker 1: place as we explore. On March third, twenty eleven, in Ogden, Utah,

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Speaker 1: twenty one year old Tie Evans entered the Weber State

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Speaker 1: University Rodeo and what happened would change his life.

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Speaker 2: Well, they used to send out stock cross about a

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Speaker 2: week in advance, and I remember stock dross came up.

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Speaker 2: I was so excited to find out what I crew.

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Speaker 2: So pull it up and I'm going down the list

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Speaker 2: trying to find my name, and atlanted on a horse

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Speaker 2: named Dakota Kid now Dakota Kid. This horse had busted

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Speaker 2: two of my friend's legs the previous fall. This horse

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Speaker 2: had a reputation it would jump out of the buck

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Speaker 2: and shoot and basically spin around and hit the post,

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Speaker 2: slam itself into the post behind it, which what's between

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Speaker 2: the post and the horse, Well, that's your leg. And

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Speaker 2: so two of my buddies had broken their legs in

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Speaker 2: this fashion. So when I saw that horse, I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh man, he was just really we would say hard

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Speaker 2: to get out on meaning hard to get out of

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Speaker 2: the bucket shoot on. Because of that little month, and well,

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Speaker 2: being a horseman, being a trainer, I thought, well, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to solve this, and I came up with a plan.

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Speaker 2: I was going to have my buddy hold a pair

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Speaker 2: of shaps, you know, our leggings we wear. Pull a

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Speaker 2: pair of shops out over like ahead of the post

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Speaker 2: a couple of feet, so it kind of tricked the horse.

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Speaker 2: The horse would wrap around there and like it usually did,

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Speaker 2: but instead of slamming to the post, it would hit

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Speaker 2: the shaps and fade out of there.

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Speaker 1: Dakota Kid was a dangerous horse, and Ty was a trainer.

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Speaker 1: He was born in Bluffdale, Utah, into a training family.

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Speaker 1: His dad trained horses and mules for a living, and

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Speaker 1: Ty literally started breaking and riding them for his dad

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Speaker 1: when he was eight years old. Lifelong exposure to a

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Speaker 1: craft often delivers instinct and insight that can't be taught.

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Speaker 1: These people think about problems from a whole other stratosphere

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Speaker 1: than the casual partaker of the said craft. Ty was

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Speaker 1: like that with equine animals. So he made a plan.

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Speaker 2: Well, I thought this was a great plan. My wife

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Speaker 2: thought I was pretty dumb, just like don't go, don't

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Speaker 2: get on this horse. And I'll admit to you, I

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Speaker 2: had a feeling I shouldn't go, like I remember the

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Speaker 2: feeling don't go. And at the time, I'm a cowboy, thinking, ty,

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Speaker 2: you're just a sissy, like you're just scared. Go cowboy

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Speaker 2: up right? But inside you can't put that. Well, you

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Speaker 2: can talk about it, but you can't put it away

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Speaker 2: when you're worried. And I had that feeling don't go.

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Speaker 1: A powerful human exercise is to do an honest evaluation

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Speaker 1: of what value system drives your actions. But often we're

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Speaker 1: blind to the truth about ourselves, and it takes something

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Speaker 1: powerful to drop the scales off our eyes. Was the

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Speaker 1: tough it out i'm a cowboy the right way or

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Speaker 1: was that actually the easy answer consistent with his cultural upbringing,

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Speaker 1: or should he have listened to his wife and his

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Speaker 1: intuition to quote from the book Evidence Based Horsemanship. For

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Speaker 1: someone to say I've been doing this for fifty years

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Speaker 1: doesn't negate the fact that someone could do something wrong

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Speaker 1: for fifty years end of quote. Is it possible for

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Speaker 1: someone to use a wrong value system, even a long

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Speaker 1: standing cultural bedrock value system like the cowboy way to

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Speaker 1: make decisions.

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Speaker 3: Is that possible for that to be wrong?

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Speaker 2: Well, what do you think I did? I went? Of course,

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Speaker 2: I went right, and I had this plan, like I said,

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Speaker 2: And I remember getting on that bucking horse, sitting down

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Speaker 2: the chute, get my feet in this, ups my legs

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Speaker 2: up under the swells of the saddle. The swells the

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Speaker 2: saddle on the front of the saddle, and I get

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Speaker 2: my legs up under the swells. I leaned back, tuck

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Speaker 2: my chin down to my chest, lift my bronch crane

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Speaker 2: that's what we hold onto. Lift up the bron crane,

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Speaker 2: put my free hand up and I remember that moment.

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Speaker 2: I don't do it. I just remember a distinct feeling,

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Speaker 2: don't do this. But then whatever, of course, cowboy up

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Speaker 2: and you're there. You're gonna nod your head. And I

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Speaker 2: nodded my head, and that horse belled out of that shute,

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Speaker 2: and just as I planned, it wrapped around those shaps perfectly.

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Speaker 2: I'm out of the shot. I've just accomplished the hardest

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Speaker 2: part of this horse's ride, getting out of the shot.

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Speaker 2: I'm the horse is bucking down the arena. I'm making

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Speaker 2: a good ride. We're going jump for jump. I'm lifting

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Speaker 2: on my rein, I'm I'm spurring, I'm leaning back. Everything

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Speaker 2: was good, and I'm thinking myself, oh jeeze, big sissy,

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Speaker 2: what were you so about? You got this? You got this?

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Speaker 2: Buzzer rings. Eight seconds is up. I've made my bronch ride.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking check, I'm good to go. Picket men are

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Speaker 2: coming in. Picket men are rescue rangers in rodeo. They

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Speaker 2: come up. One comes up, fading on the left, one

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Speaker 2: comes up fading on the right. They're almost to me.

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Speaker 2: My horse slams on the brakes. The cody kids stops deadness,

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Speaker 2: tracks flips over backwards. I remember seeing the horse, the

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Speaker 2: horse's mane in my face, and I knew I had

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Speaker 2: been flipped over on many times, so it wasn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: a dramatic deal. So as a horse is coming over,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking I got to jump out. I go to

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Speaker 2: jump out to my right, just in time to not

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Speaker 2: get my body smashed. But the swells of the saddle

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Speaker 2: came down, broke my femur in half, snapped my femer.

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Speaker 2: It gets up, the horse gets up, kicks me in

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Speaker 2: the head, and it was it was touching. Go there

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Speaker 2: for a minute, I remember being in the ambulance and

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Speaker 2: one of the guy, one of the paramedics, saying, hey,

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Speaker 2: should we go code whatever? I don't know the codes.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember that gold code whatever meaning lights and sirens,

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Speaker 2: and the other paramat goes, yeah, you better.

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Speaker 1: Tie was bleeding out from a broken femur and had

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Speaker 1: a busted and banged up head from getting kicked. The

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Speaker 1: broke leg took him completely out of rodeo for several years,

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Speaker 1: crushing his dream to potentially ride professionally. But the crisis

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Speaker 1: catalyzed the process of evaluation in Tie, which begs the

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Speaker 1: question was it actually the right thing to do to

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Speaker 1: ride the code of kid, because it did bring him

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Speaker 1: to a place of honest evaluation.

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Speaker 2: Long story short, I was out for a while, couldn't

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Speaker 2: rodeo and all that down, and I couldn't ride my mules.

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Speaker 2: I was still writing for a living, I was riding

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Speaker 2: Colts for living. I was a newly red I'd only

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Speaker 2: been right a couple of years, and we just bought

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Speaker 2: our first little house, and I remember just being sick, like,

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Speaker 2: you can't you can't ride, you can't work, man, what

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Speaker 2: are you going to do? And so I had all

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Speaker 2: this time on my hands, and I remember really thinking

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Speaker 2: about what I want to do, And that's about when

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Speaker 2: that documentary came out.

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Speaker 1: By this time, young Tie was like his father, making

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Speaker 1: a complete living breaking horses and mules. They were cult starters,

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Speaker 1: the most dangerous kind of training, breaking to ride one

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Speaker 1: hundred to one hundred and twenty animals a year. And

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Speaker 1: I want to key in on something that could sound

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Speaker 1: endearing to our ear.

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Speaker 3: He was doing it just like his dad.

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Speaker 1: But the spirit filled Judo Chop wisdom of this story

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Speaker 1: pivots on this idea, doing what your dad did isn't

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Speaker 1: always the best way. The way your dad the decisions

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Speaker 1: may not be the best way. He may have been

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Speaker 1: doing it wrong the whole time. In January of twenty eleven,

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Speaker 1: a documentary called Buck came out that was about a

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Speaker 1: man named Buck Branneman that many called the horse whisper.

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Speaker 1: Buck taught what he called natural horsemanship, where you communicate

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Speaker 1: with a horse through sensitivity and leadership, not punishment. This

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Speaker 1: is a clip from that documentary.

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Speaker 2: Do you see the expression on that horse? Get moves,

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Speaker 2: but he's crabby, flagging the tail, it's annoyed. It's like

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Speaker 2: asking your kid to go take the garbage out. They

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Speaker 2: take the garbage out.

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Speaker 3: If they flip me.

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Speaker 1: The bird on the way out of the room, it's

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Speaker 1: without respect.

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Speaker 2: And the respect isn't fear, it's acceptance.

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Speaker 4: Buck says, when you start handling horses, your own personal

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Speaker 4: issues start coming out. And I was so anxious to

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Speaker 4: see the saddle on Chief i rushed him to it.

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Speaker 4: And now I've built I feel like I've built this

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Speaker 4: fear on, this insecurity in him. But see I'm an

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Speaker 4: insecure person. So the horses, they mirror you. They can't lie.

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Speaker 1: Good boy, Buck Brannman wasn't the first to do this

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Speaker 1: natural horsemanship. He was a pioneer in it though in

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Speaker 1: modern times, and he was one of the first to

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Speaker 1: be highly successful and gain national and even global notoriety.

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Speaker 1: Ray Hunt, the Durnce Brothers Pat Perelli were also forerunners

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Speaker 1: in this style of horse training. This method maybe took

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Speaker 1: a little longer, took more patience, more precision, more attention

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Speaker 1: to nuanced in detail. But the real kicker was that

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Speaker 1: it took on a whole different kind of worldview about

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Speaker 1: the horse. It required a whole new kind of trainer,

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Speaker 1: a new mindset, a new empathy a new kind of

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Speaker 1: strength that was absent in training the horse the cowboy way.

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Speaker 1: In this new way was producing some incredible horses. Ty

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Speaker 1: was deeply inspired by the documentary and had already been

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Speaker 1: influenced by the natural horsemanship philosophy for the last several years.

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Speaker 1: But what Ty realized while laying there with this broken

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Speaker 1: leg was that very few people were doing this with mules.

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Speaker 1: Would it even work for mules? The horse world had

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Speaker 1: clinicians teaching people how to ride and train horses. The

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Speaker 1: industry was huge, but mules. Very few people were training

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Speaker 1: mules to the degree that they were training horses.

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Speaker 3: Few were making what they call.

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Speaker 1: Bridle mules or bridle horses, which describes a very high

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Speaker 1: level of training that takes many, many years and it

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Speaker 1: produces an animal with incredible safety, precision, control, and comfort.

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Speaker 1: For thousands and thousands of years, the mule was considered

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Speaker 1: a beast of burden, and Tie started to think about

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Speaker 1: mules differently, and he learned a new way to train

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Speaker 1: that required shuck in the past. Tie is now in

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Speaker 1: his mid thirties. It's been fifteen years since the rodeo wreck,

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Speaker 1: and I'm riding behind him and our friend named McClain Meekham,

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Speaker 1: a well known man the lion hunting and mule world.

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Speaker 1: It's the fifth day of a mountain lion hunt. The

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Speaker 1: last four days we've been riding in some of the

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Speaker 1: roughest country in the West. So I'm in Utah right

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Speaker 1: now with behind Tie Evens this pretty round mule.

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Speaker 2: What we doing to having the best day eversday alive?

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Speaker 2: Little kidding?

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Speaker 1: All right, we just busted some brush.

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Speaker 3: What we're doing is following a lion.

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Speaker 1: So we're we're about probably two and a half miles

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Speaker 1: from the truck and we're we're following dogs through real

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Speaker 1: thick and canyon, so we're having to bust a bunch

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Speaker 1: of brush while we're riding.

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Speaker 3: Kind of treacherous.

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Speaker 2: You might get raked off your mule, so you.

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Speaker 3: Kind of got to have a lot of control.

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Speaker 1: This is when you need real control of your animal,

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Speaker 1: need to be able to steer them precisely. And that

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Speaker 1: is exactly what Tie Evans is good at, training them

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Speaker 1: to be precise.

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Speaker 3: To have control with a mule.

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Speaker 1: This is the kind of place you want to be

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Speaker 1: sitting in the saddle of a good mule that you

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Speaker 1: have complete control over, one that trusts you so that

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Speaker 1: you can trust it. Places like this are why Tie

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Speaker 1: has dedicated his life to training mules. The backcountry is

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Speaker 1: a good place to die, and a trustworthy steed is invaluable.

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Speaker 1: You see a mule is across between a mare horse

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Speaker 1: and a jack donkey. Hybrid vigor creates an animal more

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Speaker 1: sure footed than a horse, with more stamina day in

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Speaker 1: and day out. It has a longer working lifetime, and

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Speaker 1: mules are easier to keep healthy than a horse. But

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Speaker 1: mules have their drawbacks too. They're harder to find than horses.

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Speaker 1: They're just less of them because they're sterile. They have

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Speaker 1: a very strong self protection mechanism that the world has

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Speaker 1: interpreted as stubbornness for thousands of years, which can make

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Speaker 1: them more challenging to train than a horse, but it

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Speaker 1: also can make them safer. I've heard it said that

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Speaker 1: you can train a horse to jump off a cliff,

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Speaker 1: but a mule ain't jumping off no cliff. Horses can

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Speaker 1: also be so compliant, which is a wonderful thing, that

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Speaker 1: he'll cross a raging river that you and that horse

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Speaker 1: are going to drowned in. A mule ain't crossing no

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Speaker 1: river that he's going to die in. Horses are incredible

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Speaker 1: animals that are faster, quicker, and generally easier to bring

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Speaker 1: to a place of compliance, and are often better on

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Speaker 1: the ranch and in the rodeo arena, but in the

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Speaker 1: back country, without question, a mule is the animal that

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Speaker 1: I want to be on, and most people that ride

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Speaker 1: equines in the back country agree, And that's why I

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Speaker 1: love mules. So we just came up over the ridge

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Speaker 1: and it sounded like a freight train. The dogs had,

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Speaker 1: we think, jumped this line. We've been trailing for two days.

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Speaker 1: Pretty pretty unique thing to be following the klan and

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Speaker 1: tie hunting a line on meals, I wouldn't have a

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Speaker 1: rare human experience, I'd say, with two guys that are

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Speaker 1: some of the best in the world at what they do.

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Speaker 3: Tay, how how far do you think we've rowed this

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Speaker 3: week on mules?

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Speaker 2: This week we've probably wrote, Well, this morning I was

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Speaker 2: I was at sixty eight miles, but I had to

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Speaker 2: trot some mules up. Yeah, so I'm a little bit more.

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Speaker 2: But but by the end of the day we'll be

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Speaker 2: over seventy miles, will be over some miles five days

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Speaker 2: And I was actually thinking that might be some of

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Speaker 2: the longest miles, non non cowboying miles I've ever done.

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Speaker 2: Me and a cowboy when I'm working ranch and stuff,

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Speaker 2: we'll do miles like that. But it ain't miles. It

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Speaker 2: ain't lying miles. You know what they said, line miles

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Speaker 2: don't lie. So I don't know if I've ever done

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Speaker 2: over seventy miles riding this crazy, wicked mountain like this before.

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Speaker 2: In five days time.

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Speaker 1: I want to learn about Tai's backstory and how he

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Speaker 1: transformed into a completely different trainer than the generation before him.

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Speaker 2: Born and raised in Utah my whole life, I loved

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Speaker 2: you my whole life. I love Utah. It's home. I

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Speaker 2: love everything about Utah, over the mountains, the desert canyons,

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Speaker 2: all of it. Growing up where we were a very

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Speaker 2: outdoors family. For sure, I'm super grateful my dad took

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Speaker 2: us camping and hunting and fishing and riding all the time.

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Speaker 2: Part of that was because it's what he did for

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Speaker 2: a living. He rode a lot of cults for a living,

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Speaker 2: so young horses, young mules primarily. He started out with horses,

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Speaker 2: But like any trainers trying to make a living, you know,

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Speaker 2: people say, hey, what about a mule, Did you take

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Speaker 2: a meal for training? And I remember, I still remember

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Speaker 2: the first meal he started working with, UH, and that

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Speaker 2: kind of opened the doors for him becoming the mule guy.

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Speaker 1: Ty's dad, Dion Evans, was and is an incredible trainer

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Speaker 1: and mentor for time. I want to pull back this

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Speaker 1: idea of the time being pitted against his dad and

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Speaker 1: training methodology because he was doing something wrong.

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Speaker 3: People like Dion did the.

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Speaker 1: Best they could with what they knew, and it worked.

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Speaker 1: In a perfect world, a son starts from the position

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Speaker 1: his father stopped, building upon his father's lifetime of experience,

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Speaker 1: and that is exactly what happened here with TI.

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Speaker 2: You know when I when I tell you I started

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Speaker 2: like working for my dad when I was eight, I

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Speaker 2: really mean it like I was working for my dad.

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Speaker 2: When I say he started us out with like these

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Speaker 2: little ponies. I remember one little pony named Patches. That

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Speaker 2: son of a gun could buck like it could buck,

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Speaker 2: and we'd ride it as long as we could, fall

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Speaker 2: off most of the time, get back on write it again, UH.

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Speaker 2: And then pretty soon that turned into, like I said,

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Speaker 2: me working for my dad. And I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 2: for lack of better words, I was a crash dummy.

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Speaker 2: You know, he'd put us on cults for the first ride,

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Speaker 2: so he would handle him on the ground. He'd have

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Speaker 2: him by the lead rope, and he'd get a saddle

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Speaker 2: on him, and you know, he would do his version

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Speaker 2: of what groundwork would be, which would be getting the

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Speaker 2: saddle on without them trying to kill him. And and

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Speaker 2: then we would climb on and he would hang on

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Speaker 2: to him and they'd buck around or whatever. But back

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Speaker 2: in those days, a lot of times it was bucking

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Speaker 2: them out. And my dad worked for so many horses

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Speaker 2: and mules. He was he was a really good hand.

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Speaker 2: And in those days you took whatever type of horse

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Speaker 2: or mules that would come for work. A paycheck was

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Speaker 2: a paycheck, right, and he would take them on the

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Speaker 2: way my dad would start something back then is you

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Speaker 2: get in a round pin, and a lot of times

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Speaker 2: people would they'd drop them off. I remember one of

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Speaker 2: my dreaded feelings is when somebody would back their horse

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Speaker 2: trader up to the round pin, opened the gate, opened

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Speaker 2: the open the back of the trailer and let that

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Speaker 2: thing out, because that meant it wasn't broke to lead.

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Speaker 2: That meant it was probably pretty wild probably a little

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Speaker 2: what we call touchy or wash spear, a little watchy,

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Speaker 2: meaning they don't probably didn't like humans much, right, And

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Speaker 2: that was always that would always get me riled up, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: here we go again, you know. So he would do

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Speaker 2: some round pin work, move him around in a round pin.

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Speaker 2: We use a round pin in training then and now,

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Speaker 2: and it's pretty historic because there's no corners. But we'd

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Speaker 2: get them and we would lunge them around in the

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Speaker 2: round pin, and we would get them kind of more

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Speaker 2: or less tired, and then we'd finally get him caught.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times you could, you could catch them,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of times you had to rope them

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Speaker 2: and then kind of get a saddle on it, and

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Speaker 2: it might buck a saddle off, it might kick you,

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Speaker 2: and it was, I guess, for lack of otherwise describing it,

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Speaker 2: it was a fight a lot of times to get

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Speaker 2: those suals on. I've been kicked more times trying to

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Speaker 2: saddle the horse or mule than anything else back in

358
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Speaker 2: those days especially, you know. But we'd get them saddled

359
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Speaker 2: up a lot of times, we'd you tie up, be

360
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Speaker 2: hind legged, and that kind of restricted their movement. It didn't.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't hurt him or anything, but it would restrict

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Speaker 2: their movement. They couldn't. They couldn't like run off and

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Speaker 2: they and if they tried to buck it was really

364
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Speaker 2: really mud. You'd get on them and then turn that

365
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Speaker 2: leg loose. Then would and then I would go for

366
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Speaker 2: a bron ride and hope I stayed on and you

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Speaker 2: learn you learned to stay on like I got. I

368
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Speaker 2: had a lot of bron crides in as a young

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Speaker 2: You got a picture like a little kid doing this.

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Speaker 2: I'm not a very big guy eight nine, ten, eleven,

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Speaker 2: twelve year old tie you know, out there trying to

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Speaker 2: stay on, and I looking back, I'm grateful for those moments.

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Speaker 2: The old way, so people called the old way. It

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Speaker 2: was hard, but it taught me to grid. I learned

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Speaker 2: how to run. I learned how to fight for something,

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Speaker 2: which in that case was my life, trying to stay

377
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 2: on like you really hadn't learned stay on because it

378
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 2: was easier to stay on once than to stay on

379
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Speaker 2: five times. What I mean is it didn't matter you

380
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Speaker 2: got bucked off or guess what you are getting back there.

381
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Speaker 2: It's non negotiable. As long as you were physically healthy,

382
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Speaker 2: and that is even negotiable, like what is this, Well,

383
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Speaker 2: nothing's broken, you know, the saying nothing's broken long way

384
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Speaker 2: from your heart. Okay, get on.

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Speaker 1: It's easier to stay on once than five times. I

386
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Speaker 1: like that TI has done a good job of describing

387
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Speaker 1: the old way, the cowboy way of training, which is

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Speaker 1: basically a tough man contest, a battle against fear. And

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Speaker 1: it was the playing field of proving the cowboy way.

390
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Speaker 1: But he would learn there was a better way. Haven't

391
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Speaker 1: they always trained horses the cowboy way?

392
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Speaker 2: People will ask, so is this how people have been

393
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Speaker 2: riding and training animals for one hundreds of years? The

394
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: answer is now in that answer, what I mean is

395
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Speaker 2: I call it Industrial age horsemanship. So at the turn

396
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Speaker 2: of the century, the industrial age, everything's faster, right, and

397
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Speaker 2: it's kind of like what we deal with now with

398
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 2: with our technology like a microwave, we won't think so fast.

399
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: When when cultures started changing with the horsemanship, it went

400
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Speaker 2: from taking time to do stuff well and having the

401
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 2: time to do stuff like think of these guys that

402
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 2: you know back then there's a lot of ranches, and

403
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 2: there were guys there were full time buckers. They were

404
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 2: full time horsemen. And they were cattle with those horses,

405
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 2: but primarily they're full time horsemen, so they spent a

406
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Speaker 2: lot of time with their horses. And those old bookers,

407
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,719
Speaker 2: those old cowboys, those v carols, all those cultures, they

408
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 2: they would they're with these horses all the time. Like

409
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 2: making one of my passions is making bridle meals, and

410
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 2: that is a long process. Well even now, but especially

411
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: during the turn of the century. You go telling somebody

412
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 2: you're going to be taking six, seven, eight years to

413
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 2: get them finished out in a bridle. They go, what

414
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 2: that's you know, because they're not because that puts them,

415
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: That puts them between eight to ten years old before

416
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: they're straight up in a bridle finished out. And you

417
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: tell all people that, they're like, yeah, right, no way,

418
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 2: they want it now. They want them wearing a bridle now. Anyways,

419
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 2: turn the sentry, do it faster, do it faster. And

420
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Speaker 2: so that's where I think a lot of the bronx

421
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: stomping came in. Now, don't get me wrong, his trucking

422
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 2: ranches do they go for a lot of bronc rides.

423
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Speaker 2: I guarantee it. Like look at the old Charlie Russell paintings,

424
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: you know, he's not making that stuff up. He was

425
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: there with seeing it. There was some rough stuff. Like

426
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that it wasn't rough. It was for

427
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 2: sure rough. But I think later on people wanting it

428
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 2: so fast, go go go, go go push it, you know.

429
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: And then you also got to think about Hollywood all

430
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 2: the Westerns. It depends, but it's not really fun to

431
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: watch a horse just ride around real nice. They kind

432
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 2: of like a little grounk, right, And so I think

433
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: a lot of people grew up watching that, including me,

434
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: Like I didn't. I thought, well, yeah, they're gonna buck in.

435
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: And to be honest, Clay, I kind of liked it.

436
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: Was it was fun. So starting colts with my dad

437
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: and all that was was a blast. I loved it.

438
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: It was hard, it was tough, but I loved it.

439
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: Can we talk about when things started to change? Yeah,

440
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: So I think I was about fourteen years old, and

441
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 2: I remember my dad got hurt really bad. My dad

442
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: has the highest pitch whistle you would ever hear in

443
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 2: your life. He would stick both pinkies in his mouth

444
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 2: and just do that crazy high whistle. Well he was

445
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 2: on a meal one day, did that loud whistle. So

446
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: he sets the reins down and when he whistles that

447
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: meal takes off lights it up, bucks him off, and

448
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 2: he busted up a bunch of stuff, hurt his hip

449
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: really bad. But he was he was beat up, beat

450
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: up to the point that he was pretty well ready

451
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 2: to be to call it. So got to that point

452
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: where he was ready to kind of be done and

453
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: quit training for the public. Anyways, at that point I

454
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: kind of took over and took it on myself and

455
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: that was my gig. That's what I did. Yeah, yeah,

456
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 2: So I'd get home from school and I'd ride I'd

457
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: ride meals and horses, and I did that all through

458
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: middle school and then in high school. Of course you

459
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: can get work release, you know, and I that was

460
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: my job and I loved it. About that time, about

461
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: time I was a senior in high school and kind

462
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: of getting out of high school, my dad had a

463
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: good buddy that give him some Brad Cameron VHS tapes.

464
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: That's how loungo. It was VHS tapes, right, and I

465
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: wore those tapes out watching them. And Brad Cameron was

466
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: a bridleman, meaning he made bridle mules. I didn't really

467
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: know what a bridal mule was I didn't really understand.

468
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: I'd seen some bridle horses and people do that, but

469
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: I didn't ever think you could make a bridle mule. Well,

470
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: here he is, that guy's doing the thing. I wore

471
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 2: those tips out, I washed him over and over again.

472
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: I loved him. That opened my eyes to a lot

473
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: of well, well particularly it opened my eyes to this

474
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: thing called groundwork. I mean my version of groundwork up

475
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: to that point, working with my dad and stuff was well,

476
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: we'd sack it out a little bit, like literally, like

477
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: with a feedsack or something. We'd rub it all over,

478
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: or get a tarp or something and get him used

479
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: to the tarp or things like that. But to get

480
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: the sadlo on. Okay, check, now we've done our groundwork. Well,

481
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: Brad was doing all kinds of stuff like moving him

482
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: is this way in that way, and he'd he'd send

483
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: the meal around in a circle on that lead rope

484
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: on a loose rain, meaning no tension in that rain.

485
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: He's not pulling that meal around. It was. It was

486
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: going freely, and he was moving these feet in all

487
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: kinds of ways that I didn't understand. He's using terminologies

488
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: that I'd never heard before moving the hinds moving the fronts.

489
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: I didn't know this stuff meant. Well I do now.

490
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: I mean, we're going to move the hind feet one

491
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: way to the other. We're gonna move to the front feet.

492
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 2: That's what it means. And so I started playing around

493
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: with that stuff, and well, by golly, it made things

494
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 2: a lot easier at that point when when I was

495
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: I guess towards the end of high school in graduating,

496
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: like if I had ten horses or mules, I was starting,

497
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: out of ten, probably eight of them would buck. Now

498
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: that's bad statistics for a trainer, that's bad news. Well,

499
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: it's because how I was doing it. I was just,

500
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: I was just I thought I was a cowboy. I

501
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: thought I was just doing cowboy stuff, just riding them,

502
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: and I was just bucking them out, and that's just

503
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: what I did. Well, I started doing this, you know,

504
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: I call it Brad Cameron stuff back then, and that

505
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: eight out of ten bucking went down a lot to

506
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: like one out of ten. Now, you tell me how

507
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 2: does that work? And I didn't know. I thought I

508
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: was just moving around. Maybe I was getting them tired,

509
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: you know whatever. I didn't understand the psychology of it

510
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: in that mule or that horse. I didn't understand how

511
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: their minds were changing. What I really didn't realize back

512
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: then is how I was changing. What was changing to me,

513
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: like I started to see the mule different.

514
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: This is worth stopping to consider what TDD just said.

515
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: He went from eight out of ten mules bucking to

516
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: one in ten, But he recognized that it was actually

517
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: him that was changing as he started to see the

518
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: mule completely differently, producing a new set of considerations. The

519
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: mule was no longer an adversary to be conquered by force,

520
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: but a potential partner that just needed convincing to give

521
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: its loyalty, which it actually wanted to give. In twenty twelve,

522
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: this book called Evidence Based Horsemanship came out and redefined

523
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: the way people viewed horses. It pointed out how people

524
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: had anthropomorphized horses, thinking that a stubborn horse with bad

525
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: behavior made choices like a rebellious child, or that a

526
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: horse didn't like people. But the authors, one of them

527
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: a neuroscientists, described the psychology of the horse as desiring

528
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: security and leadership. They're herd animals. They're always looking for

529
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: a leader, and if a leader doesn't arise, they have

530
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: to become the leader. And therein lies the conflict of

531
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: the cowboy way, where leadership is taken by force. But

532
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: Ty would learn that he could create the circumstances where

533
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: a mule would give itself because of his true leadership,

534
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: and this was revolutionary.

535
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: Brad Cameron used all kinds of terminologies. There's a quote.

536
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: He would quote it a lot, but I learned later

537
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 2: that it was a ray Hunt quote. They know if

538
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 2: you know, and they know if you don't know. The

539
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: puzzle to some people listening. But what I've come to

540
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: find is they the mule or the horse, they are

541
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: aware of your awareness. They know what you're paying attention to.

542
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: More or less, they can see it, they can sense it.

543
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: So in my high school days, I wasn't aware at all.

544
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: It was just me like totally physically manipulating and manhandling

545
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: these horses and mules. I was getting along just with

546
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: my brute force and strength. And the more I started

547
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: learned about the mind of the mule, the mind of

548
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: the horse, and my own mind and how I acted,

549
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: and you know, how I carried myself around an animal,

550
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: the less troubles I have, the troubles started fading away,

551
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 2: and it was getting easier.

552
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: What Ty learned was that a mule spoke a completely

553
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: different language than a human, and when he started communicating

554
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: correctly with them, they were ready partners. I'd like to

555
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: read a quote from evidence based Horsemanship. The horse brain

556
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: is about the size of a large grapefruit and proportionally

557
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: one six hundred and fiftieth of their body weight. The

558
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 1: human brain is one fiftieth of our body weight.

559
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 3: They have a.

560
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: Large cerebellum for balance and smooth movement. Most of the

561
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: brain area is dedicated to motor and sensory functions. Horses

562
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: do not have a huge frontal lobe like humans. They

563
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: are unable to make fun of someone in return to

564
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: share a joke with their pasture mates. Although they have

565
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: personalities based on how they behave, it would be anthropomorphic

566
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: to assign human personality traits to these animals. The temptation

567
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: to want to believe that horses process things in the

568
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: same way as humans may make us feel better, but

569
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: it is inaccurate, leads to false assumptions, and is often

570
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: at the expense of the horse's welfare and well being.

571
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: End of quote. The cowboy way of breaking mules assumes

572
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: that compliance must be taken by sheer force like a

573
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,479
Speaker 1: military dictator. That does produce compliance, but not the same

574
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: kind of compliance as when it's freely given you see

575
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: a prey. Animals love language is security. Their primary motivation

576
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: in life is safety and not to get eaten. Natural

577
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: horsemanship uses pressure and pressure, meaning like when you're trying

578
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: to make an animal turn to the left and after

579
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: this pressure when they do it, there is an instant

580
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: release of that pressure as a reward for compliance, which

581
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: these neuroscientists learn dumps a huge hit of dopamine. The

582
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: mule loves a dopamine hit like Brent Reeves loves and

583
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,959
Speaker 1: honest Tree and Walker Ty learned that a mule will

584
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: do anything to get a pressure release. It may sound

585
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: like jiu jitsu, but just hanging there and it takes

586
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: less and less pressure once the mule learns that you're

587
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: speaking its language of release and security. It's all about communication.

588
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: I think there are life lessons in here. Sometimes the

589
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: solution to your problems might be getting a completely different outlook,

590
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: not more of the same that isn't working. And good

591
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: luck Brent finding an honest tree in.

592
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: Walker Brad, I learned how a mentor himself named Buck Brannman.

593
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: And so when I learned that Brad learned a lot

594
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 2: from Buck, then I started paying attention to him. And

595
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: that that was at a little later on about the

596
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: time where Buck Brownman had a documentary come out on

597
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 2: its life. It's called Buck and it was about Buck

598
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 2: teaching clinics and his life. But I remember more or

599
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 2: less seeing Buck's job, and I knew about clinics from Brad,

600
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: but Buck was making a career out of this, teaching

601
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 2: people and helping people and studying Brad and Buck. I

602
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: had so much change in myself. And you know, when

603
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: you find something good and you can see the good

604
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 2: and you can see like the joy coming into your life,

605
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: you just want to share it with others. And when

606
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 2: I saw that documentary that he was doing that, I said,

607
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: I told my wife, and we were newly wedded at

608
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: the time, we had only been married for a couple

609
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,919
Speaker 2: of years at that time, I said, I want that job.

610
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:57,479
Speaker 2: That's the job I want. Getting bucked off and having

611
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: that wreck breaking my leg, what it did is that

612
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: I'm a go getter. I'm ninety miles an hour all

613
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: the time, drives my wife crazy. But that wreck slowed

614
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: me down. It forced me to slow down, and I believe,

615
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: I believe it was it was God saying slow down, Ty,

616
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: get on the right track, because I think I was

617
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 2: going off track. But that wreck slowed me down and

618
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 2: reoriented my life. And I had all the time to

619
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 2: think about it. I had all kinds of time to

620
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: watch videos. I watched so many training videos sitting on

621
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 2: the couch with a busted leg, and I just would

622
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 2: learn and I would read, and I said, I'm gonna

623
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: make I'm gonna make a go of this. I'm gonna

624
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 2: I really want to do this. And so I didn't

625
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: get back on a bucking horse for a couple of years.

626
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: And when I did go back to rodeo and I

627
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 2: went back, I wrote it for summer. I went to

628
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 2: fourteen rodeos that summer. Coming back finally took me, yeah,

629
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: two years to my leg to heal up and to

630
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 2: get muscle back. But when I came back, it didn't

631
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: have the same drive. I remember sitting on the back

632
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: of a bucking shoot in Sant Quentin, Utah, looking up

633
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 2: at the at Mountain Nebo, beautiful Mountain, and I think

634
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: to myself as I'm sitting there, man, I'd rather be

635
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 2: up there with my mule. I'd rather be riding. I'd

636
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 2: rather be camping anything. And so that was my last rodeo.

637
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: I was in twenty fourteen, and up to that point

638
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 2: I had actually started doing a couple of clinics like

639
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 2: at home. I couldn't ride mules after that wreck for

640
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: a period of time, but I you know, later that

641
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: that summer and that fall, I got to riding again,

642
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 2: and I got to training again, and we started doing lessons,

643
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: and we started doing like little clinics at home, and

644
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: our first clinic was in I believe it was May

645
00:40:53,760 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: of twenty twelve. Where I work with meals now is

646
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: a lot different than I did back then, not in

647
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: the sense I mean, you can only do so much

648
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 2: with the mule, Like while I'm talking about the actual

649
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: training pieces. You can go forward and back and side

650
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 2: to side, hopefully not up and down. So in that sense,

651
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 2: it didn't change, Like we still accomplish the goal, and

652
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: the goal for me is to make a nice, dependable,

653
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: reliable partner that we can go out and go for

654
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 2: a good ride. I can go work cows, I can rope,

655
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 2: I can go on pack trips, we can go hunting

656
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 2: a reliable partner. But it's how I get to that point.

657
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: It's how I get there that's different now. Back then,

658
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: in those old days, it was a lot of force.

659
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: And I'll admit to you, I forced a lot of

660
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: meals horses, and I have a lot of regrets. There's

661
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 2: a lot of them that I wish I could have

662
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: a second chance at. However, I do realize that some

663
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 2: of those meals and horses were kind of the I guess,

664
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 2: for lack of better words, the sacrifice for today's mules.

665
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,959
Speaker 2: They had to deal with old tie, so that these

666
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 2: mules today can rape the benefits of new tie, you know,

667
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: the new tie events. And today I spend a lot

668
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 2: of time using what we call free agency, teaching free

669
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 2: agency and letting these mules have a choice. So I'll

670
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: set up a scenario where I want it to be

671
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 2: easy for the mule to do whatever I wanted to do.

672
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: There's a principle we teach, make the right thing easy,

673
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 2: wrong thing difficult. Well, you got to be careful with that,

674
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 2: because some people can take their anthing difficult part all

675
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: the way to the bank. They just want to make

676
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: wrong thing difficult, long and difficult. My focus is making

677
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: the right thing easier.

678
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: I've got to stop right there and ponder the applications

679
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: of this principle outside of training mules. As a father,

680
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: I often find myself focused on making the wrong things hard,

681
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 1: but putting little focus on the reward of the right thing.

682
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: As I look back the way I've fathered, I see

683
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 1: that I've used conflict inaccurately. I've applied too much pressure

684
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: in the wrong places, trying to get an external response

685
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: that really doesn't teach my child anything or it doesn't

686
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 1: actually change them. But as a more broad application, after

687
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: hearing Tai story and learning about natural horsemanship, I realize

688
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: the solution to some problems isn't achieved by doing what

689
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: you're already doing.

690
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: Just harder.

691
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: I hope that makes sense, but may be it's the

692
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: adoption of a completely new paradigm that will show you

693
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 1: a solution you had no idea existed.

694
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 3: Here's some specifics.

695
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: Of this make the right thing easy philosophy.

696
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 2: So if I want to get something done, all I

697
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: have to do is let it be the mule's choice

698
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: to do that, and set up that scenario to where

699
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: that thing that I want to do, whether it's go

700
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: across that water, load up in a horse trailer, walk

701
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: up on a mountain lion, it make that easy to do.

702
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: I want it to be easy to do, where before

703
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 2: in the old days I might just kick and pull

704
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 2: and force them to get there. Either way we're going

705
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 2: to end up there. It's just how I do it.

706
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 2: And I might be able to force that horse or

707
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 2: force that mule to do something one time, but the

708
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 2: chances of me forcing it to do a couple of

709
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 2: times probably slim. So it's easier to set up the

710
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 2: situation where they want to do it. And then when

711
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 2: they do it and you give them the reward, which

712
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: the reward really is just relief for a release, meaning

713
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 2: you leave them alone, you stop asking them, you just

714
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: let them dwell and relax. That's the best reward. And

715
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: so when they do that or they get a big

716
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 2: dopamine hit and it feels good to them, and so

717
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: when they finally accomplish the task you're trying to get done,

718
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 2: they're like, hey, I like this. It's a good experience,

719
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 2: and so then they want to do it again, just

720
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: like anybody else. You have a good experience and you

721
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: enjoy you want to do it again. Probably one of

722
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 2: the best things about my journey I'm really grateful for

723
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: it is how I've changed. I realized the emule's meal

724
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: horse is a horse, and a humans a human, and

725
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 2: it's all about how we think. And if I want

726
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 2: to get along with these animals, I need to understand

727
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 2: how they're thinking. But in order for me to understand them,

728
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 2: I need to understand myself. Like if I don't recognize

729
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 2: when my adrenaline is high, how am I going to

730
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: recognize when THEIRS is high? If I don't recognize when

731
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: I have some fear or doubt or even excitement, or

732
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 2: maybe overly overly brave, you know, or overly I don't know, cocky,

733
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 2: you know, or or too forward, like if I don't

734
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: recognize the life in my own body that I'm put now,

735
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 2: it's really going to be hard for me to control

736
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: the animals. If I can't control my emotions, how can

737
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 2: I expect to control theirs? Like One of the principles

738
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: that we teach in our clinics, we teach leadership in

739
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 2: our clinics, and one of the principles of leadership in

740
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 2: our clinics is to this two parts. We begin with

741
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: the end in mind? So what is it that you

742
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 2: want your mule your horse to be like? Well, what's

743
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 2: the end in mind for you? Is it? I want

744
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 2: to make a really good calmule. I want to be

745
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 2: able to rope. I want to be able to trail ride.

746
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 2: I want to be able to hunt, I want to pack,

747
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 2: I want to barrel race. Oh, it doesn't matter what

748
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 2: it is. Maybe you just want to pass your pet. Cool,

749
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: But what is that end? What do you want them

750
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 2: to be like? And then the second part is you

751
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: have to be what you want them to become. And

752
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: that's my favorite part is be what you want them

753
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 2: to become. So how can I expect my mule to

754
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: be confident if I'm not confident? So if I come

755
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: to an obstacle and we ride some rough country here

756
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: in Utah, we ride some tough stuff. And if I

757
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 2: come to this obstacle and it might be a crazy

758
00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: rocky slope, it might be some ravines or some deep canyons,

759
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 2: whatever it might be. If I go, oh boy, I

760
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 2: don't know about that, my mule's going to fill that.

761
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: They're going to fill that and it'll take a really

762
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: confident meal to overcome my lack of confidence. But if

763
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 2: I come up with the obstacle, I'm like, Okay, yeah,

764
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: we got this, we can do this. That is contagious

765
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 2: to the animal. If I want my mule to be relaxed, calm,

766
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: whatever words you want to use, I have to be

767
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 2: all those first. That's what a good leader does. I

768
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 2: can't tell you to calm down and I'm freaking out.

769
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: That doesn't make any sense. Everybody calm down. No, I

770
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: need to be calm. I need to be that example

771
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 2: and an exam. Being an example to an equine or

772
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,479
Speaker 2: a horse is not exactly the way human to human work,

773
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 2: but it's very similar.

774
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 1: A mule mirrors your confidence, in energy and insecurities, and

775
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: the followers of a leader also mirror a leader's confidence, energy,

776
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: and insecurities. The primary function of leadership and listen to

777
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: this man, take this to the bank. The primary function

778
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: of leadership is to be the pattern and the example

779
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: of exactly what you want those who follow you to be.

780
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 3: That's it.

781
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: This is the key to true leadership. Period leadership as

782
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: a parent, as a business owner, as a member of

783
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: a basketball team, as a productive member of your community

784
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: or as a mule trainer.

785
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 3: The natural, physical, and spiritual.

786
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 1: World responds and rewards authenticity and rejects falsity. Tie's journey

787
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: of transformation and the way he trained mules also highlights

788
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 1: something that can be hard for human beings, and that

789
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: is to realize that you're doing something wrong and completely change. Today,

790
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 1: Tye and his wife Sky are successful mule clinicians traveling

791
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 1: all over the country teaching people how to communicate, ride

792
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: train their mules. You can find them all over the

793
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: internet as TS Mules. You can check him out on Instagram, Facebook,

794
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: and the TS Mules Podcasts.

795
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 3: Tie has a podcast.

796
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: These are some really great people and I've learned a

797
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: ton from Ty's story and I hope that you guys

798
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: will follow along. And we've got some more coming from

799
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: Tye next week. Thank you so much for listening to

800
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 1: Bear Grease Brints this country Life and Lake's Backwoods University.

801
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 3: It's twenty twenty six.

802
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: We're excited about the new year and keep the wild

803
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: places wild because that's where reversed the