1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: M. This is Mesters in Business with very Renaults on 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: Bluebird Radio this week on the podcast. I know I 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: say this all the time, I have an extra special guest, 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: but man, I have an extra special guest. Professor Robert Sheldini, 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: author of Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion, is back. Professor 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: Sheldon's books have sold more than seven million copies. Influence 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: is on a ton of people's top book list, including 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: none other than Charlie Munger of Berkshire Hathaway. I wish 9 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: we had another three hours. I had so many questions. 10 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: I was taking notes furiously. You can hear me writing 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: and typing in the background. We I wanted to circle 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: back to so many things he brought up. There's so 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: much to talk about. Really, it needs about eight hours. 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: We were lucky we had him for well over an 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: hour talking about you know, most people when they expand 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: a successful book, they do a light touch up. This 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: new book it's double the size of the original. It 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: absolutely is practically a brand new book. Look for the 19 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: blue and gold cover if you want to make sure 20 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: you're getting the edition. I found the conversation to be 21 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: nothing short of of fascinating and spectacular and I think 22 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: you will. Also, you will hear my thought process of 23 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: do I just stay with this topic, do I get 24 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: to the next question? Let me circle back? And of 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: course you run out of time. There's there's I literally 26 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: had forty more questions to ask him, plus all of 27 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: my notes and and unfortunately, you know, these podcasts aren't 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: nine hours long. But you will find this to be 29 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating. He is an intriguing person and just so 30 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: knowledgeable about why people do what they do and how 31 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: we influence each other in including some of the ethical 32 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: considerations of that. Let me stop babbling with no further ado. 33 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: My conversation with Professor Robert Chaldeini, author of Influence, the 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: Psychology of Persuasion. This is Master's in Business with very 35 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: renaults on Bluebird Radio. My extra special guest today is 36 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: Dr Robert Chaldeini. He is the region's Professor Emeritus of 37 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: Psychology and Marketing at Arizona State University. He is the 38 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: author of books that have sold more than seven million copies, 39 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: including Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion and Persuasion, A Revolutionary 40 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: Way to Influence and Persuade. His new and expanded version 41 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: of Influence is just out Robert Chaldini, Welcome back to 42 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: Master's in Business. Thank you, very good to be with 43 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: you again. Same. I've been looking forward to this for 44 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: a while, and I have to start with, you know, 45 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: my my something version of Influences, the skinny, little dog 46 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 1: eared paperback. The new book is I don't know, it's 47 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: probably double in size, it's bigger, it's it's expanded, it's 48 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: more in depth. How much of this book is new 49 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: and different compared to either the original or any of 50 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: the prior revisions. We added two hundred and twenty new pages, 51 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: so it's almost like a new book. It's we didn't 52 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: just append two d and twenty pages. We uh integrated 53 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: the new material into the existing material, because the existing 54 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: material still UH fortunately stands, and we wanted to emphasize 55 00:03:53,680 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: new directions, new UH information, new examples, and specific new 56 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: ways to harness those principles. One of the things we 57 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: got as feedback on previous editions is, you know, Professor Sheldy, 58 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: we we understand those principles of influence, We see their 59 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: utility and business, but can you give us the exact 60 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: words that we can use to ignite them, to activate 61 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: them in a particular situation. So there's a lot more 62 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: of uh, specific things to say, specific scripts to use, 63 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: specific sequences of information to provide that allow you to 64 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: uh uh to be the benefit of those powerful sources 65 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: of change. But quite interesting, I have to go back 66 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: to the original book and ask you a question that 67 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, just grabbed me when I first read this 68 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: and in in the beginning of your research for ins LUNs, 69 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: which really dates back to you as a grad student, 70 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: you spent a few years working undercover at places like 71 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: used car dealerships or telemarketing firms. Tell us a little 72 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: bit about the genesis of influence, you know. I started 73 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: working as a academic research psychologists social psychologist, studying my passion, 74 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: which is persuasion and social influence in a laboratory, using 75 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: college students as my subjects for the most part, and 76 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: learning some important things I think by being able to 77 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: structure an environment in which we were able to test 78 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: exactly the question that we were interested in um in 79 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: a rigorous way. But I quickly began to see that 80 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: I was limiting myself in recognizing how we could generalize 81 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: the results that we got from college students in a lab. 82 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: A tory to the influence wars that are being fought 83 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: all around us every day, in which people are trying 84 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,119 Speaker 1: to move us in a particular direction, and we're trying 85 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: to move others in a particular direction. What's the evidence 86 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: of what works in naturally occurring interactions between people that 87 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: cause one person to say yes to another? And it 88 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: seemed to me that there were professions whose business it 89 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: is to get others to say yes to them, right, 90 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: they must know what works, otherwise they would go out 91 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: of business. So I began to take training undercover in 92 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: as many of the influence professions as I could get 93 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: access to by UH signing up to be a trainee. 94 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: So I would learn what they had learned that got 95 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: people to say yes in a variety of these professions. 96 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: So I learned how to sell automobile from a lot. 97 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: I learned how to sell insurance from a desk. I 98 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: learned how to sell portrait photography over the phone. But 99 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: I didn't stop with sales. I learned how advertisers, as 100 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: and and copywriters get people to say yes from an 101 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: ad they write. How how charity solicitors get people to 102 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: give funds and donations to particular causes, How recruiters get people, 103 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: not just arm service recruiters or business uh you know, 104 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: corporate recruiters get people to move in their direction. What 105 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: do cult recruiters do? Right and down the line? I 106 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: looked for what were the commonalities that worked in each 107 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: of these various professions that everybody said, do this, do 108 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: this thing because it enriches us if you do so. 109 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: Tell us some of the common analities, what phrases and 110 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: thoughts and influence programs for lack of a better word, 111 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: because I think sales training is the wrong description. What 112 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: was the common thread in all of these different entities. 113 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: I was shocked at how small the footprint was. I 114 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: only counted six universal principles of influence that were recommending 115 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: in each of these um influence professions. The first is reciprocity. 116 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: People say yes to those they owe. So one thing 117 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: you can do is give first, give something of value 118 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: to people, and they will stand ready to give back 119 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: to you when you ask for something, not necessarily directly 120 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: in return, but down the road. If you give them 121 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: um information that's a value for them, You give them 122 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: something a favor or a service for free, and then uh, 123 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: the it's their turn, They're much more likely to say 124 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: yes to you in return. There's a lovely little study 125 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: it done in a candy shop. Right if the manager 126 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: gives a little piece of chocolate two people as they 127 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: come in as a sample, they're forty two more likely 128 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: to buy candy. Right now. The key is you might say, well, 129 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: maybe they just like the chocolate, so they bought some more. 130 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: If you look into the data, the great majority didn't 131 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: buy any more chocolate. They bought something else because it 132 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: wasn't what they had received. It was that they had received. 133 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: So I always advise if you go into a situation 134 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: where you want to be more influential, Let's say you're 135 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: in a new situation, maybe a new organization or setting, 136 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: and there's a group of people you want to be 137 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: influential there. The first question to ask is not to 138 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: look around that room and say, who can most help 139 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: me here? The first question is home can I most 140 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: help here? So show up with donuts and coffee the 141 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: first day, and and it will pay dividends. Those people 142 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: will stand on the balls of their feet ready to 143 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: give back to you. I remember a couple of years 144 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: ago we started getting solicitations through the mail for some 145 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: charity where they included a dollar bill in the mailer, 146 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: and you say, wow, that looks so expensive, And I 147 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: remember they used to do it. I might have been 148 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: the Heart Association used to send return receipt stickers for 149 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: you to put on a piece of mail you were 150 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: sending out, so you had your name and address. But 151 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: this was the next level. And then you stop and 152 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: think about it. Well, between the stamp and the envelope 153 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: and the printing and putting it together, the dollar may 154 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: be the cheapest part of it, but still that has 155 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: to have an impact on people who open up an 156 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: unsolicited letter and there's a dollar in it. Right. Here's 157 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: the thing. You can't send the dollar back, right right, 158 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,599 Speaker 1: So you keep it. And as soon as you've kept it, 159 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: the rule of reciprocity that's been installed in you from 160 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 1: childhood that says you must not take without giving a 161 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: return kicks in. And the American Veterans Association gives that 162 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: little pack of uh gummed address labels in there. Right, 163 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: it increases donations. That doesn't surprise me at all, because 164 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: not only does my wife use them, but I imagine 165 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: every time she pulls out that role of shiny gold 166 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: return addresses and pulls it off she remembers, Oh, this 167 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: came to me from this group, and it it has 168 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: to be, it has to be a nagging motivation that 169 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: I should really reciprocate their generosity. You know, I get 170 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: these pins at various conferences and so on that have 171 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: some sponsors name on them and so on, and and uh, 172 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: you know, Uh, they're so trivial. I hardly pay attention 173 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: to them, and they usually go in a drawer with 174 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: fifty other pins. Right, But I went to one conference, 175 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: all right, I was a speaker, so they knew who 176 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: I was and they put my name on the pin. Jeez, 177 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: what was the impact of that on you? So that's 178 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: one of the accelerators of the proof. Not only should 179 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: you give first, which is kind of different from the 180 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: new usual business exchange where we say to people, you 181 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: buy our product, you sign our contract, and we will 182 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: give back to you exactly what you hope for. That 183 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: means they have to go first. Rule for reciprocity says 184 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: you go first anyway, and if you give something personalized 185 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: to the individual, right, the rule for reciprocity immediately becomes 186 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: more muscular. That pen. I carry it around with me 187 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: because it's got my name on it, and every time 188 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: I look at it, I see my name on one 189 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: side of the pen and the sponsor's name on the 190 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: other side of the pen. Just like your wife remembers, 191 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: I remember that they gave me this pen personal gift, 192 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: not just a a universal gift, the gift to everybody. 193 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: That's one of the keys to accelerating the power of 194 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: this principle. You know, after our first conversation, I think 195 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: that was two years ago, I got a lot of 196 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: email from from different people, but the one that really 197 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: stood out to me was from a fan of yours, Bob, 198 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: and he said, you were burying the lead in your 199 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: insight about reciprocity, and he believes that reciprocity is even 200 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: more powerful than you suggest. So I have to ask 201 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: you two questions about this. First, have you ever heard 202 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: this concept? Has anyone ever told you, hey, you're not 203 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: emphasizing reciprocity enough, and and what are your thoughts on 204 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: on this idea of his? Yes, I think he's right. Uh, 205 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: it is so fundamental that it appears in every human culture. 206 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: There's not a single human society on earth that fails 207 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: to train its members in reciprocity from childhood. You must 208 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: not take without giving him turn. You must not take 209 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: without giving and return. In every language, we have very 210 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: nasty names for people who don't abide by that rule. 211 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: We call them moochers right who take without giving a 212 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: return or or or or uh um. We can call 213 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: them various things like like that, spongers, or takers, or 214 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: ingrates or teenagers. To be honest, nobody wants to be 215 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: labeled like that. So people always give back to us. 216 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: And in keeping with what your listeners said, UH, I 217 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: have in the new book got language to help uh 218 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: help us employ the situation in places where we used 219 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: to drop the ball. How many times have you heard 220 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: somebody say, Barry, thank you so much for this. That 221 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: was really great. You really helped me out. And what 222 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: do you put in the moment after genuine thank you 223 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: right where the rule for reciprocity dominates that situation, I'll 224 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: tell you what I used to say, don't worry about it. 225 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: There was not a big deal. Big deal would have 226 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: done it for anybody. My pleasure, my pleasure. It's not 227 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: your pleasure. You went beyond I know that I went 228 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: above and beyond it. I went to some effort to 229 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: do it, and then I just slap it out the 230 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: window with the back of my hand. So here's what 231 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: I say. Now, one of two things. If that individual 232 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: is somebody who I have a long term relationship with, 233 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: I say, of course, I was glad to do it. 234 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: It's what long term partners do for one another. I 235 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: put it on the map. I don't deny it, I 236 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: don't dismiss it, I don't diminish it. I say, it's 237 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: what long term partners do for one another. And now 238 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: when I need something from that individual, you know, to 239 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: turn something around more quickly, and so I could whatever 240 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: the issue is, right, they'll move heaven and earth for you. Yeah, 241 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: they'll Now let's say you don't know that person, it's 242 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: the first time, and you've done something above and beyond 243 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: the call for this person. They say, thank you, that 244 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: was great. Very Here's what I think I would say 245 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: in that moment. Look, I was glad to do it. 246 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: I know that if the situation had ever been if 247 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: the situation were ever reversed, you do the same for me. 248 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: Once again, we don't diminish it. We just say you 249 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: play by the rules. I know you. Look, I know 250 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: you'd played by the rules. And let's be careful not 251 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: to say if the situation had been reversed, you would 252 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: have done the same for me. That's in the past. 253 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: If ever happened in the in the past, what you do, 254 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: what I say now is if the situation were to 255 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: be reversed, I know you would do the same for me. 256 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: So you're planting the seed perspectively as opposed to referencing 257 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: what already took place in the past. I'm planting the seed, 258 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: and I've cultivated the earth before I planted. It's almost 259 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: like it's pre suasion, exactly right. So we're talking about 260 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: reciprocity on a micro level. And some of the examples 261 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: that you reference in the book social Etiquette, gift giving, handshakes, 262 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: the Golden rule, um, things like collaboration or even collusion. 263 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: But what about reciprocity on a macro level, and some 264 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: examples include the Martial plan or open immigration policies. How 265 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: does macro reciprocity work. It works remarkably. It goes back 266 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: to the Magna Carta in fact, where you know the 267 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: British statement of how we govern now. One of the 268 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: one of the features of it from I think the 269 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: twelfth century said, if we're in a war with another country. 270 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: If our people are representatives who are selling our commercial 271 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: representatives are people who are selling in their country, or 272 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, if they are protected, then we have to 273 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: protect their foreign citizens who are in our country. It 274 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: explains something that I'm old enough to remember that the 275 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: Cuban missile crisis back in the early sixties when the 276 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: world was on pins and needles, because the US had 277 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: found that Russia Soviet Union at that time had sent 278 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: guided missiles and put them in Cuba and pointed them 279 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: to the United States nuclear missiles. Well, John F. Kennedy 280 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: was president at the time, confronted Cruscheff, head of the 281 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: Soviet Union at the time, and demanded that they be 282 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: removed otherwise there would be war. And said, We've set 283 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: up a blockade, so any Solviat ships that are currently 284 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: coursing to Cuba to continue to add to the nuclear 285 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: stockpile there, they would be stopped, right And Cruisia said, 286 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: if you do that, that's an active war. If not 287 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: any war, it was a nuclear war that was estimated 288 00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: to eliminate one third of the population on Earth. How 289 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: did they get out of it? Well, the the story 290 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: was that Kennedy was so steadfast, so steely, i'd so 291 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: resolute that he refused to back down. And eventually Kruscheff 292 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: blinked and removed his missiles from Cuba and the US one, 293 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: and Kennedy built his reputation as an anti Soviet leader. 294 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: That increased his popularity. Would there have been some new 295 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: documents released recently from the Kennedy library that showed that 296 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:48,719 Speaker 1: it was not that at all. It was reciprocation. Kennedy 297 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: promised to remove missiles from Turkey that we're pointed to 298 00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union if Kruscheff would remove miss from Cuba 299 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: and required that Kruscheff not tell anyone about the reciprocal 300 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: exchange because that would weaken his political Kennedy's political position 301 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: at home as somebody who compromised with the Soviets. And 302 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: so what happened was the rule for reciprocity was suppressed 303 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: as the true reason. Instead, stubbornness was elevated. The thing 304 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: that actually would have created a war was elevated to 305 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: permanence as the reason we got out of it. It 306 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: was the opposite. It was reciprocity that exists in all 307 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,719 Speaker 1: human cultures. That's what got us out of the Cuban missile. 308 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: So there's a whole another conversation to be had about 309 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: why politicians have to hide what really happened and present 310 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 1: such a strong face. I'll hold off on that, but 311 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: I have to ask you a question about evolutionary biology 312 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: because you said reciprocity and a lot of the rules 313 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 1: of influence show up in every single culture on earth. 314 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 1: So is this a learned behavior or is this really 315 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: written in our genetics as social primates. This is something 316 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: that only humans have. In terms of future reciprocity. There 317 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 1: will be some exchanges, cooperative interactions between uh infra humans 318 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: and within their species right there, they can cooperate, but 319 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: the idea of getting something and having an obligation to 320 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: give into the future, only we have that, and it's mostly, 321 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: in my view, socialized into us rather than evolved into us. Now, 322 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: I'm not going to take a clear stand on that, 323 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: but for the most part, in my view, the reason 324 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: it exists, and we have those nasty names in every 325 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: human culture for people who violate the rule, is that 326 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: if we have a society where people give and take 327 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: and cooperate and exchange, the society thrives, it flourishes. So 328 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: that's why it's socialized into us. I think primarily quite fascinating. 329 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: I have to start with a quote from the new 330 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: version of the book that that I found quite fascinating. Quote. 331 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: Essential assertion of this book is that our choice of 332 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: what to say or do immediately before making an appeal 333 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: significantly affects its persuasive success. But there's a related choice 334 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: that occurs even before that one. It's whether on ethical 335 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: grounds to try to attain success in such a way. 336 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: That's the beginning of chapter thirteen. Discuss why you thought 337 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: it was important to dedicate a big chunk of the 338 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: book to this. Because the principles we talk about in 339 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: the book our dynamite, and we've got possession of dynamite, 340 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: so we have to use it ethically. We can use 341 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: these principles for ill, or we can use it for 342 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: them for good. And the clear recommendation is if we 343 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: use them in an ethical, responsible way, we build relationships, 344 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: We build long term, sustainable exchange histories with people, and 345 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: that can hinues into the future. If we use it 346 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: to to exploit or deceive or course people into change, 347 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: we may get that change in the immediate situation, but 348 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: we've we've essentially um created an adversary, Uh, somebody who 349 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: resents being pushed or tricked into assent. So uh. In fact, 350 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: Richard Taylor, Nobel Laureate, in in one of the endorsements 351 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: for the book, here's what he says about the book. 352 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: There's dynamite here. Please what use what you learn with care? 353 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: That's a very wise thing for him to say, not 354 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 1: surprisingly it's Nobel Prize winner. It's the ethics of the 355 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: process that are so important to producing long term relationships 356 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: that continue to pay off for us. You know, I 357 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier that you had gone undercover at car dealerships 358 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: and charities and insurance sales place. There's a line that 359 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 1: has always stayed with me from the book, which is, quote, 360 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: the number one rule for salespeople is to show customers 361 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: you genuinely like them. Why is this so important for 362 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: a salesperson to demonstrate affection to a customer or a 363 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: client Because people like those who like them. And now 364 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: we're into the second principle of influence liking that. Uh, 365 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: it allows us to be more influential if we can 366 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: arrange for people to feel a sense of rapport, sense 367 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: of liking for us before we begin the process. We're 368 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: halfway there, already to assent before we even deliver the 369 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: re asked or the recommendation or the proposal. And uh so, 370 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: one way to do that is to turn the rule 371 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: that I always heard in every one of these training 372 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: programs on its ear. They we were always told, if 373 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: you want to get somebody to um say yes to 374 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: you for your request or proposal, get them to like you, right, 375 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: and then there are various ways to get them to 376 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: like you. But one thing I recognized is that the 377 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: way you the best way to do it is to 378 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: come to like them and show them that you like 379 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: them and down come the barriers to change because they 380 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: know that if you like them, you're going to steer 381 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: them correctly. That's what we do with the people we like. 382 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: That's what we do with our friends, right, and the 383 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: and the fact is they will be right. If you 384 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: truly come to like somebody, you will try to give 385 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: that person the best possible arrangement because of that sense 386 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: of rapport and affection you have for that person. So 387 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: that's what we can do. Because we can control how 388 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: much we like other people more than we can control 389 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: whether they like us or how much they like us 390 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: so let's work on ourselves. Find things that are genuinely 391 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: praiseworthy about that person. Right. It may take a little 392 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: longer for certain people and other people, but you can 393 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: do it. Focus on that and let that person know, 394 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: give them a compliment, a genuine compliment, or find things 395 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: that are genuinely similar between you and that person. Not 396 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: only do we like people who who like us, we 397 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: like people who are like us, members of the same tribe. 398 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: That's right, you referred recently to. I forgot who you 399 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: were talking about. But they were a fan of the 400 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: same team that you're a fan of. And suddenly everything 401 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: about that person is Hey, they were smarter, their books were, 402 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: but everything about them took a step up. And that's 403 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: just because they're members of the same you know, they 404 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: like the same things, the members of the same trime. 405 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: They have similar affiliations. It's that powerful social proof. It's 406 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: that powerful. It's that powerful. And I mean, and I'll 407 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: give you the exact situation. I grew up in Wisconsin. 408 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: The NFL team that's the home team in Wisconsin has 409 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: always been the Green Bay Packers. I read an article 410 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: a few months ago that said that um justin Timberlake, 411 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: that's and Little Wayne. Any all, these two musical celebrities, right, 412 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 1: they are both avid Packer fans. Very I immediately thought 413 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: better of their music, and I wanted them to succeed 414 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: into the future because we are members of the same tribe, 415 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: and you are not what I think of as a 416 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: Little Wayne fan from the outset. But man, now, so 417 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: since we're talking about ethical considerations and questions, it raises 418 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: a really important issue. How do we protect ourselves from 419 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: people who may not have your level or Dick Taylor's 420 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: level of ethical recognition, and how do we protect ourselves 421 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: from unscrupulous users of of these psychological techniques. Right, So, 422 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: at the end of every chapter in the book, I 423 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: have a section called defense how to say no to 424 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: somebody who's used these principles. Right, So, let's let's take 425 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: the liking principle for example, And let's say you're shopping 426 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: for a car, or you've got somebody who wants to 427 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: partner with you on some business deal, and you find 428 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: yourself liking that person more than you would have expected 429 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: for the amount of time that you've spent together. Let's 430 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: let's go to the car sales room and and if 431 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: you recognize that liking is there in the situation, added 432 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: to an extent that's inordinate more than you would expect. 433 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: Step back from the situation and recognize why did Why 434 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: am I liking this salesperson? Oh yeah, he gave me 435 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: donuts and coffee. Oh yeah. Uh. He says that his 436 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: wife grew up in the same place that I grew up. 437 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he complimented me on my uh, interior choices 438 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: for the car. I'm looking all right? And then and 439 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: then separate that sales person from the car, because you'll 440 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: be driving the car off the lot, not him. Quite interesting, 441 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: you know. Before we get into some specifics. My favorite 442 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: story in the original book is how you met Charlie Manger. 443 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: Tell us about how your relationship with Charlie Manger came about. 444 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: One day I went to my mailbox to find an envelope, 445 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: big envelope, and I opened it to find a note 446 00:33:54,440 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: from Charlie Manger appended to a single goal share of 447 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: Berkshire Hathaway stock. The note said, you don't know me, 448 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: but we have used the material in your book Influence 449 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: to make us so much money here at Berkshire Hathaway. 450 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: I'm sending you a share of a a stock out 451 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: of reciprocation. Your first principle, right, you deserve something in return. 452 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: At the time that share was worth seventy dollars. This 453 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: was like, is that what we're talking about? Yes, and 454 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: today that's worth about four hundred and thirty dollars exactly. 455 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: And let me tell you the reason I held onto 456 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: that share all these years with great benefit was because 457 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: of what Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger do in there 458 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: in Warren's letter to his shareholders every year for Brickshire Hathaway, 459 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: where Warren establishes his credibility on the front page, on 460 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 1: the first or second page of text of every of 461 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: those uh of those letters, he does something to give 462 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: me a sense of his credibility, his knowledge and trustworthiness. 463 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: He mentioned something that went wrong that year, something that 464 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: didn't go as expected, and then he says, of course 465 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: we've learned from that, we will never do that again. 466 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: And then he moves on to the strengths of the year, 467 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: all the things that went right. Very every year, I 468 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: would say to myself, Wow, I'm dealing with a straight 469 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 1: shooter here. Not only is this guy knowledgeable, he knows, 470 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 1: you know, what's what went right and what went wrong. 471 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: He's not trying to fool himself with this. He's trustworthy. 472 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: He's willing to tell us what went wrong before he 473 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: tells us what went right. Right, he establishes his truthfulness, 474 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: which makes me believe in what went right, to truly 475 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: process it deeply and believe it fully. Because he first 476 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: was willing to tell me what went wrong, I now 477 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 1: believe the next thing he said. I recall reading something 478 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: about that in influence someone who is honest and humble exactly, 479 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: so I have never thought about selling that unit of 480 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: a share of stock because every year I see how 481 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: honest and knowledgeable the man is. On the front page 482 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: of the text that he said, there was a couple 483 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: of years ago Berkshire did so well that year. There 484 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: wasn't anything they did wrong. So you know what, what 485 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: what Warren did? He told us about a mistake he 486 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: made with Dexter shoes, about an error, just so he's 487 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: making clear to us. Look, I'm not trying to claim 488 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: that I know everything. Look, I make mistakes right, And 489 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: once again I'm astounded by the um, the honest, the 490 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: transparency of the guy, and am willing to follow him 491 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: from there on. So uh, it's it's a brilliant Uh, 492 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: it's a brilliant tactic that it's not a tactic in 493 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: the sense that he's doing something phony. He is an 494 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: honest guy. He's showing us his honesty by doing something 495 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: I recommend too. I would recommend to all your listeners. 496 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: If you've got a case to make, and all cases, 497 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: of course have strengths and weaknesses, mention a weakness relatively 498 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: early in your case, because that establishes your credibility for 499 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: what you say next, and that's the moment for your 500 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 1: strongest argument, immediately after you've mentioned a weakness, if you're saying, 501 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 1: you know, I think we ought to move in this 502 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: in this direction for your investments, let's say your h 503 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: an advisor. H but there, let's talk about there's some 504 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: tax consequences of this. And this may take a little 505 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,919 Speaker 1: bit longer, right, but I think it will be well 506 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: worth it for these reasons. People will now listen to 507 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: those reasons differently in the moment after you've managed mentioned 508 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: a weakness, and you will allow those strengths to just 509 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: wipe out the weakness. Quite interesting. The other story in 510 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: the book that really cracked me up. I guess we 511 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: should have talked about it when we were discussing the 512 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: ethical considerations. Is the story of the two tailors Sit 513 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: and Harry, where one of them pretends to be hard 514 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: of hearing. To tell us a little bit about that story, 515 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: because it's just unbelievable that these guys figured this out 516 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: and used it so effectively. The breck Yes, the story 517 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: of the who were ran a man's clothing shop back 518 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,760 Speaker 1: in the nineties in the depression right there and uh 519 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: when a a person would come in, a man would 520 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: come in to buy a suit. Um, he would be 521 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: in front of that three pained mirror you know you 522 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: stand and be getting trying on a suit, and one 523 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: of the brothers would call to across the room to 524 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: the tailor, his other brother, Harry, how much for this? Uh? 525 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: This beautiful? Oh will suit right? And Harry would call 526 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: back and the other brother would say, uh. He would 527 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: cut his ear to hear, and then he'd say he 528 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: says twenty nine dollars as if he didn't hear it correctly, 529 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:40,760 Speaker 1: and the guy would jump at it, sits and hustle 530 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,959 Speaker 1: out of the store, thinking he had pulled something over 531 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: on the do bag brothers. In fact, the dog brothers 532 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: and pulled something over on him, which was to say, 533 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: you're getting this deal. They're getting this at a at 534 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: a big discount. In fact, was the true price of 535 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: the suit. So here's the question that story raises, and 536 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by it. So in the traditional world of 537 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: behavioral finance, folks like Failure or Kneman would say the 538 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: buyer there the suit, buyer was anchored on thirty nine 539 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: dollars and suddenly twenty nine looks relatively inexpensive. So so 540 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: it kind of raises a couple of questions. Is this 541 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,359 Speaker 1: just anchoring? Is this is there some social authority about oh, 542 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: I'm getting a thirty nine a more valuable suit. What's 543 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: going on with this? And then I want to ask 544 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: you some questions about behavioral economics. Why does the buyer 545 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: think they're getting a bargain? And by the suit and 546 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:49,839 Speaker 1: run out right, you're correct about the anchoring process. If 547 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 1: I give you a high number initially, if I ask 548 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,280 Speaker 1: you the distance to the sun, very and then I 549 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,359 Speaker 1: want to sell you a bottle of mineral water, right, 550 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: the price of that bottle of water seems smaller to 551 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,919 Speaker 1: you by the process of anchoring, right, And so you're 552 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: more likely to buy it. It's crazy, but that's the truth. 553 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: That's the way we work. It has to do with 554 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 1: something called perceptual contrast. Anyway, in that contrast that the 555 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,240 Speaker 1: nine dollars suit now seemed less expensive than it would 556 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: have if he hadn't heard thirty nine dollars first. So 557 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: that's one component. The other is he thinks he's getting 558 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: a great deal on this. Besides the fact that it 559 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 1: seems less expensive. It seems like it's a thirty nine 560 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,959 Speaker 1: dollars suit that he's getting for nine dollars. So both 561 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: of those things are are working. So let's talk about 562 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: behavioral finance and and throughout the book, you know, I 563 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 1: kept having in the back of my head parallels to 564 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: behavioral economics. Your first version of this was, did you 565 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: have any idea that you were operating in parallel with 566 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: people like Conomen and Teversky or Richard Thaylor or Robert 567 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: Schiller or Thomas Killovich. How aware were you of that 568 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: fields which really wasn't recognized for at least a decade 569 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 1: or two later. I had no idea, but I think 570 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: I understand why it turned out that way. So, for example, 571 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: influenced the book has been called the Bible of um, 572 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 1: of e commerce, of digital marketing. Well, when it was written, 573 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: there was no e commerce, there was no digital market 574 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,439 Speaker 1: there was no internet. And people have said how could 575 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: you see a hit so far in the same way 576 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: that you would say how could you see so far 577 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: ahead into behavior of finance or behavior economics? It was 578 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: not by looking forward as some sort of oracle. It 579 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: was by looking inward. What are the things that have 580 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 1: always moved us as a species towards change? What are 581 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: the things that have always counseled us correctly as to 582 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: its time to to act in this way versus some 583 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: other way? It were it was the six universal principles 584 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 1: of influence that had always driven us into change. And 585 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: so that's what I did. I didn't look forward thirty years. 586 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: I looked inward to the factors that have always moved 587 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: us as a species. Huh. So let's talk about some 588 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: of those six We talked about reciprocity, we talked about 589 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: social proof. What other key drivers do you think are 590 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:10,240 Speaker 1: worth mentioning. We've also talked about authority to a degree, 591 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 1: the extent to which you you you you want to 592 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: say yes to those individuals who have showed you that 593 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: they are credible sources of information. They are both knowledgeable 594 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,799 Speaker 1: and trustworthy. We've talked about that. Another is, of course, scarcity, 595 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 1: the idea of that. Let's talk about that because that 596 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 1: is such a key issue in economics and finance, in psychology, 597 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:39,120 Speaker 1: Why is scarcity such a giant driver? It turns out 598 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 1: that the key to scarcity, that is uh, the idea 599 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: that people want more of those things they can have 600 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: less of, right, is that they're afraid of losing. They're 601 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: afraid of losing that desirable opportunity. They're afraid of missing 602 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: out on this uh, this chance to move in a 603 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: productive direction, and so on. And as Daniel Kaneman has 604 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: shown us, loss a version, the idea of losing something 605 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 1: is more powerful, more motivating than the idea of gaining 606 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: that very same thing, right, and scarcity, So loss is 607 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: the ultimate form of scarcity. It means you can't get 608 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: it anymore. Right. So, the thing that makes scarcity so 609 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 1: powerful across the widest range of situations is the idea 610 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 1: that we will lose something, and that loss drives us 611 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:46,240 Speaker 1: crazy to an extent that a gain doesn't benefit doesn't 612 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 1: make us as as satisfied as a loss makes us 613 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 1: dissatisfied with the very same thing, right, So it's almost 614 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 1: a two to one ratio. We feel losses twice as 615 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: intensely as we feel the pleasure of gains. And my 616 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: pet theory on that I want to want to ask 617 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: you about it feels that gains are temporary. You get 618 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,240 Speaker 1: a windfall, you can go out and you know, spend 619 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,759 Speaker 1: it freely and it's gone. But losses feel like they're 620 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: permanent and never to be recaptured again. Why do you 621 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: think the loss factor the scarcity factor is so much 622 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: more intense. I have my own opinion, but I really 623 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,759 Speaker 1: like yours as well. So my guess is that if 624 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: you ever see something with a big effect, it's never 625 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:42,960 Speaker 1: caused by one thing, always multiplely multiply caused. So here's 626 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: what I have thought. Uh, And it's an evolutionary explanation. 627 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,759 Speaker 1: If you are if you are um operating at a 628 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,920 Speaker 1: level of survival, right, and you have a chance to 629 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: gain something, Okay, you'll get an increment upward. Right, if 630 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 1: you get an increment downward, you may be gone. Game 631 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:14,279 Speaker 1: over right, You're gone. So you have to pay much 632 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 1: more attention to the idea of losing something because you 633 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:23,799 Speaker 1: it may eliminate you. Right, existential threats are are more 634 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: significant than you know a few I I always think 635 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,920 Speaker 1: about this question in terms of Las Vegas. Not that 636 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: I've been to Vegas and it seems like years, but 637 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: right outside of the casinos is very often jewelry shops, 638 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 1: and you watch people come out with winnings and buy 639 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, crazy expensive jewelry and stupid expensive watches. But 640 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 1: the people who lose the rent money, they're really in 641 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,239 Speaker 1: dire straits. And that's not for people on the edge 642 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,240 Speaker 1: of survival. If you're if you're just above that subsistence level, 643 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 1: in it's an existential threat to suffer a loss. Existential 644 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,839 Speaker 1: is precisely right, you're gone, so you have to be 645 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 1: alert to it. You have to be suspicious about any situation. 646 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 1: You have to be willing to move against encounter. The 647 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 1: possibility of loss to a much greater extent than the 648 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,480 Speaker 1: probability of gain makes a lot of sense. Any other 649 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,440 Speaker 1: of the main principles that we didn't get to that 650 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:33,000 Speaker 1: you think is worth mentioning before I have one more 651 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:34,680 Speaker 1: question I have to ask you, but I want to 652 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,959 Speaker 1: stay with the principles. Yes, and there's the new one, 653 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,319 Speaker 1: the one that I call unity. I've actually added a 654 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:46,320 Speaker 1: seventh for this addition, um and we've kind of talked 655 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,920 Speaker 1: about it already. It's that the willingness of people. If 656 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:53,560 Speaker 1: if it as a communicator, you can arrange for people 657 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:58,439 Speaker 1: to see you as one of them, right, as of them, 658 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:03,320 Speaker 1: not just like them in tastes or preferences or styles 659 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,640 Speaker 1: or so on, that that's what that increases liking. But 660 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,479 Speaker 1: if you can get them to see you as one 661 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 1: of the category of individuals that you consider a WE 662 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:23,320 Speaker 1: group and US group, everything inside that category becomes easier 663 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,719 Speaker 1: to influence. Your more cooperative. You believe those people more, 664 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,920 Speaker 1: you trust those people more, you say yes to those 665 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:35,440 Speaker 1: people more. And what's what's key is you have to 666 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:41,640 Speaker 1: bring to consciousness that unity that exists. Right. And I'll 667 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,200 Speaker 1: give you a short example of something that worked for me. 668 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 1: A while ago. I was writing a report. It was 669 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,759 Speaker 1: due the next day, and as I was skimming it 670 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: before putting in an envelope and sending it off, I uh, 671 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,359 Speaker 1: I saw that there was a section of it that 672 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,920 Speaker 1: was not really compel. I didn't really have the evidence 673 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 1: to make that case in that one section that I 674 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: that I I wanted to be persuasive about but I 675 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,280 Speaker 1: knew that a colleague of mine, let's call him Tim 676 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 1: uh did some research the previous year and he had 677 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,360 Speaker 1: the data that I needed, but I didn't have them. 678 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,280 Speaker 1: He had the data, so I sent him Uh an email. 679 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,839 Speaker 1: I said, Tim, I explained, you know, I have this thing. 680 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 1: It has to go in the mail tomorrow to this 681 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,240 Speaker 1: granting agency, and UM, I don't have the data. Could 682 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,040 Speaker 1: you go into your archives get that data out for 683 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,439 Speaker 1: me and send it over to me so I could 684 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,919 Speaker 1: get it into my report and and get it off 685 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,440 Speaker 1: by the end of the day. I said, I'm going 686 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,160 Speaker 1: to call you to tell you about the specifics of 687 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:52,000 Speaker 1: what I need. Well, I called him, and Tim was 688 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,320 Speaker 1: known to be an irascible kind of sour guy. He 689 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:59,160 Speaker 1: just was a negative guy. So he picked up the phone. 690 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,239 Speaker 1: He said, Bob, I know why you're calling and the 691 00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:07,240 Speaker 1: answer is no. Look I can't I can't be responsible 692 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:12,440 Speaker 1: for your poor time management skills. Man, I'm busy too. 693 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,440 Speaker 1: Very before I knew the research about unity and being 694 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:27,040 Speaker 1: raising to consciousness the category similarity between people right that 695 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:32,960 Speaker 1: defines them right, I would I would have said, come on, Tim, 696 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,280 Speaker 1: I need this this thing is due tomorrow. He already 697 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:42,040 Speaker 1: said no to that. Here's what I said instead, Tim, 698 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 1: We've been members of the same psychology department now for 699 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 1: twelve years. I really need this. I had the data 700 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 1: that afternoon. I imagine not a lot of people say 701 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:59,720 Speaker 1: no to you and get away with it. Well my kids, 702 00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,760 Speaker 1: Well reciprocity doesn't always work with kids, for for obvious 703 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 1: reasons they expected. So so let me ask you this question. 704 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,720 Speaker 1: The last time we I had you on the show, 705 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,560 Speaker 1: I asked you a question what made Donald Trump such 706 00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,640 Speaker 1: an effective communicator? Given the fact that we now have 707 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,600 Speaker 1: a new president and there's all sorts of of things 708 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,640 Speaker 1: going on around that, I want to ask you this 709 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: question about President Biden. A large percentage of Republicans don't 710 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:37,759 Speaker 1: believe he was legitimately elected. They believe President Trump that 711 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,560 Speaker 1: the election was stolen. Given everything you know about tribes 712 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,839 Speaker 1: and influence, what do you think President Biden can do 713 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:52,640 Speaker 1: to influence this group of Republicans that he was legitimately elected. 714 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:58,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to suggest something. It's a little used, very 715 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 1: under used strata g from persuasion science. The convert communicator. 716 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:10,040 Speaker 1: This is somebody who used to believe what you believed, 717 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,920 Speaker 1: but you currently believe he's one of you or she's 718 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 1: of you, and then has a new piece of information 719 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:26,120 Speaker 1: that you don't have that changed his or her mind 720 00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:33,520 Speaker 1: and tells you why you can't dismiss that person. This 721 00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:38,040 Speaker 1: is of your tribe, this is of you, this is 722 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,080 Speaker 1: one of you. Now you've got a communicator not speaking 723 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:46,200 Speaker 1: from outside of your WE group, but speaking to you 724 00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,840 Speaker 1: from inside of your WE group and providing a piece 725 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:56,440 Speaker 1: of information you don't have. So let's say it's about 726 00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:04,480 Speaker 1: getting vaccinated and you're just not convinced that you should 727 00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:10,920 Speaker 1: and it's not necessary. And then you have somebody who says, 728 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:19,080 Speaker 1: I used to believe that, and then my mother got 729 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,319 Speaker 1: she wouldn't wear a mask, she wouldn't socially distance, she 730 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:28,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't get vaccinated just like me, and we buried her 731 00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:34,600 Speaker 1: last week. Or if it was it's about measles vaccinations, 732 00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,600 Speaker 1: and you say, and then my daughter got measles and 733 00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 1: she's deaf, right, all right, Now that's a piece of 734 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:46,279 Speaker 1: information you don't have, but it's coming from one of you. 735 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,959 Speaker 1: That's what I would recommend, So I know I only 736 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,920 Speaker 1: have you for a limited amount of time. Let's this 737 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,719 Speaker 1: has really been absolutely intriguing. But let's jump to our 738 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,759 Speaker 1: favorite questions that we ask all of our guests, starting 739 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,080 Speaker 1: with tell us what you've been streaming this past year 740 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:10,320 Speaker 1: under Lockdown? What are your favorite Netflix or Amazon Prime shows? 741 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,600 Speaker 1: Or what podcasts are keeping you entertained. I've been re 742 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:20,160 Speaker 1: streaming Breaking Bad. I love this show and These Days 743 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,880 Speaker 1: The Crown I've been I'm still in the middle of 744 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,279 Speaker 1: The Crown, right, So those are the two I've been 745 00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:31,359 Speaker 1: entertaining myself with when I'm haven't been writing this uh 746 00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,760 Speaker 1: expansion to the book quite quite interesting. Tell us about 747 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,840 Speaker 1: your mentors who helped influence your career, either as a 748 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:44,120 Speaker 1: professor or or an author. Yes, so there are three 749 00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:50,120 Speaker 1: individuals in in graduate school and in my post doctoral fellowship. 750 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:55,840 Speaker 1: One was my major advisor at chat Insco. Another uh 751 00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:01,319 Speaker 1: famous psychologist at my graduate institution u n C at 752 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:06,880 Speaker 1: Chapel Hill, John Tebow. And then my post doctoral fellow advisor, 753 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:11,400 Speaker 1: Stanley Shackter at Columbia University. But I'll give you a 754 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:16,840 Speaker 1: mentor who taught me something that I think saved my career. Um, 755 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:22,320 Speaker 1: before I went into college, I was a very good 756 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,480 Speaker 1: high school baseball player, and I had an offer to 757 00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:31,960 Speaker 1: play minor league baseball, uh, from a scout from the 758 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,320 Speaker 1: White Sox, and I was going to be in so 759 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:39,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, level D baseball, you know, way down 760 00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:44,520 Speaker 1: below and to start. And he came to my last 761 00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,280 Speaker 1: game and he had a contract and he had he 762 00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,200 Speaker 1: wanted me to sign it. And I was a center fielder. 763 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to be Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays, you know. 764 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:56,120 Speaker 1: And his pen wouldn't work. And on the way to 765 00:57:56,240 --> 00:58:00,440 Speaker 1: the car to get his other pen, we walked. He 766 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,320 Speaker 1: asked me, hey, kid, are you any good at school? 767 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:08,480 Speaker 1: I said yes. He said, good enough to get into college. Yeah, 768 00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:16,440 Speaker 1: good enough to finish college. Yeah. Do you like school? Yeah? 769 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,040 Speaker 1: He said, go to school, kid, you're not good enough 770 00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:23,320 Speaker 1: to make the Major's And he was right. I couldn't 771 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,040 Speaker 1: hit a slider. I couldn't hit a good slider and 772 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,080 Speaker 1: I was going to see a lot more good sliders 773 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:34,440 Speaker 1: as I went up to Bronx and he and I 774 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:40,320 Speaker 1: went to school instead. That man. I mean, if I 775 00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:44,720 Speaker 1: had wound up in you know, Class A ball, I 776 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:49,240 Speaker 1: moved up to the middle or maybe Class double A baseball, 777 00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,919 Speaker 1: and then I just couldn't get any further. After four 778 00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: years let's say of trying by four years. Maybe I'm married, 779 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,160 Speaker 1: maybe I have a child. I don't get to go 780 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,200 Speaker 1: to college. Now you know what I get to do. 781 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:12,200 Speaker 1: I get to be the assistant manager of the pizza 782 00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:18,360 Speaker 1: hut in the last city I wound up in, and Barry, 783 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:23,000 Speaker 1: we're not having this conversation. Probably not, that's amazing. Did 784 00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,720 Speaker 1: you ever get a hold of who that guy was? 785 00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,000 Speaker 1: Do you know who he is? He passed away. His 786 00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,920 Speaker 1: name was Bunny Brief. I remember him. Did you have 787 00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:36,800 Speaker 1: an opportunity to Detroit back in the forties and thirties? 788 00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,400 Speaker 1: And but he was a scout in Milwaukee where I 789 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,960 Speaker 1: grew up in? Yeah, did you ever have an opportunity 790 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:47,640 Speaker 1: to thank him for his Never? Did? He passed away 791 00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:53,640 Speaker 1: before I had the chance to recognize how important it 792 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:58,880 Speaker 1: was for him to tell me, Look, don't just follow 793 00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:03,680 Speaker 1: your passion, which everybody else says, right, follow your passion 794 01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:08,600 Speaker 1: that you're good at that great at right right, that's 795 01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,880 Speaker 1: an unbelievable story. So let's go to uh books. Tell 796 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,200 Speaker 1: us some of your all time favorite books and what 797 01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:19,440 Speaker 1: are you reading right now? So, in terms of fiction, 798 01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:29,160 Speaker 1: Remains of the Day by UM and Underground Railroad by 799 01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:33,920 Speaker 1: Colin Whitehead for nonfiction, I'm going to go to the 800 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:39,080 Speaker 1: things that are influence related Aristotle's rhetoric. My God, at 801 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:44,280 Speaker 1: the first time anybody tried to systematize the process of 802 01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:52,440 Speaker 1: of persuasion, he did it. And then my Nobel laureate authors, 803 01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:58,320 Speaker 1: uh you know Daniel Koneman for thinking fast and smoke slow, 804 01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:06,800 Speaker 1: Uh nudge for Sailor and Sunsteen uh. Those And what 805 01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:16,120 Speaker 1: I'm reading now is Um Sapiens by Uval Noah Harari. Brilliant, 806 01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:24,200 Speaker 1: brilliant book, really really interesting. Let's talk about you mentioned 807 01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,520 Speaker 1: don't always just follow your passion. What sort of advice 808 01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,840 Speaker 1: would you give to a recent college graduate who is 809 01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:36,880 Speaker 1: interested in a career in in psychology or academia, or 810 01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,560 Speaker 1: in writing, or any combination of those three. If you're 811 01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,920 Speaker 1: really interested in a career in psychology, there's a little 812 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:51,720 Speaker 1: secret that you can employ. It's called independent study credit. 813 01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:56,439 Speaker 1: You get credit for working on a project with one 814 01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:02,200 Speaker 1: of the professors um in in psycho in the psychology department, 815 01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,120 Speaker 1: or in the communications department or in the marketing department, 816 01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,480 Speaker 1: whichever one you want to go to, and you get 817 01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:13,280 Speaker 1: experience working as a professional on a project that they have. 818 01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,200 Speaker 1: That tells you whether you really want to go further 819 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,520 Speaker 1: in this, but it also gives you somebody who can 820 01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:26,560 Speaker 1: write a letter of recommendation for you to the next 821 01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:32,760 Speaker 1: step to the master's program or MBA programmers or PhD 822 01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:40,120 Speaker 1: program to be in a psychology related career. Quite quite interesting. 823 01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,640 Speaker 1: And our final question, what do you know about the 824 01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:48,640 Speaker 1: world of psychology today that you wish you knew back 825 01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:54,120 Speaker 1: when you were first writing Influence. Here's what I wish 826 01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:59,160 Speaker 1: I knew about the influence process back then that would 827 01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:06,200 Speaker 1: have uh made for a better environment for me going forward. 828 01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:13,400 Speaker 1: It is when you are going into a situation with 829 01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:18,040 Speaker 1: people you don't know right, you don't know much about 830 01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:24,200 Speaker 1: them at all, think the best of them, think the 831 01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:32,080 Speaker 1: best about them. It allows you to be generous with them. 832 01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:38,680 Speaker 1: And here there are three downstream consequences of that generosity. First, 833 01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,360 Speaker 1: by the principle of liking, they will like you more 834 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:48,880 Speaker 1: for being a generous person. Second, by the principle of reciprocation, 835 01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:55,000 Speaker 1: they will give you that generosity back. Third, by the 836 01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:59,920 Speaker 1: principle of commitment and consistency. When they recognize that they 837 01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:03,640 Speaker 1: are being generous with you, they are giving you things, 838 01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:06,800 Speaker 1: They are working together with you. They will want to 839 01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:12,560 Speaker 1: be consistent into the future with what they have already done. 840 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:18,520 Speaker 1: And now you have a set of people you like, 841 01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:24,520 Speaker 1: who like you, who are exchanging favors, gifts and services 842 01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:30,280 Speaker 1: and information into the future. If I had known that 843 01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:34,280 Speaker 1: thirty years ago, I would have done it immediately. It 844 01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:40,080 Speaker 1: took me a long time to recognize that. Huh. Quite fascinating, Bob. 845 01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:43,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. 846 01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,520 Speaker 1: We've been speaking with Robert Sheldini, author of Influence. If 847 01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,080 Speaker 1: you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure and check out 848 01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:54,640 Speaker 1: any of our previous four hundred such interviews. You can 849 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,640 Speaker 1: find those at iTunes, Spotify, wherever you feed your podcast fixed. 850 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:02,720 Speaker 1: We love your comments, feedback ends suggestions right to us 851 01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,919 Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. Sign up 852 01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:10,280 Speaker 1: for my daily reads at Ridholtz dot com. Check out 853 01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,920 Speaker 1: my weekly column. It's on Bloomberg dot com slash Opinion. 854 01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,520 Speaker 1: Follow me on Twitter at rit Haltz. I would be 855 01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,520 Speaker 1: remiss if I did not think the practice staff that 856 01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:24,480 Speaker 1: helps put these conversations together each week. Marufle is my 857 01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:30,240 Speaker 1: audio engineer. Michael Boyle is my producer. Atika val bron 858 01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:34,000 Speaker 1: is our project manager. Michael Batnick is my head of research. 859 01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,680 Speaker 1: I'm Barry Ritholtz. You've been listening to Master's Business on 860 01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:39,760 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio.