1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 8 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 9 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions. 10 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 3: Hello everybody, and welcome to it could happen here. It's 11 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 3: Schreene and today I'm joined by James and Robert to 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 3: welcome our guest. In this episode, we are joined by 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 3: Adam Broomberg. He is an artist, an activist and an educator. 14 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 3: He was born and raised in Johannesburg, South Africa. His 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 3: parents and his entire extended family are Holocaust survivors and 16 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 3: he had a very Zionist upbringing. We talked to him 17 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 3: about how he grew up in apart Height, South Africa, 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 3: how he broke free from Zionism as a teenager, and 19 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 3: how he's come to be a very vocal Jewish anti Zionist. 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 3: He currently lives and works in Berlin and he's exhibited 21 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 3: his art all over the world. He's also regularly on 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 3: the ground in Palestine and he uses his work to 23 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 3: raise awareness about the crimes committed daily by the IDF. 24 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 3: Members of the German government have accused him and labeled 25 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 3: him as being anti Semitic because of his criticism of Israel. 26 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 3: And we're going to get into all of it. I 27 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 3: want it. So let's just go back into your background 28 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 3: a little bit. Your family on both sides are Holocaust survivors, 29 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 3: and your ancestors like fled to South Africa, and that's 30 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 3: where you grew up with your parents. And I read 31 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 3: that you went to a zion the school starting from 32 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 3: age six. Can you tell us about your family background 33 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 3: and your experience going to issi in a school as 34 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: a Jewish person. 35 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 4: So you remember the podcast you did about Lithuania and 36 00:01:54,800 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 4: that particular character who is the pale who had to 37 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 4: flee from the pug Rams and all that stuff. So 38 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 4: basically this is part three. 39 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 5: What he's talking about here is the Spanish Civil War, 40 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 5: specifically about an episode we did more than a year ago, 41 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 5: as many of thirty percent of the fallen volunteers who 42 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 5: fought in some units in Spain were Jewish. Some of them, 43 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 5: like al Jakin, who have written about a lot, had 44 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 5: fled persecution in the pale of Settlement at a very 45 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 5: young age and arrived in the USA to relative safety. 46 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 5: But after a few years in the USA, they began 47 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 5: to see the menace of anti Semitism spreading back towards 48 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 5: them through Nazi Germany and later through fashed Italy, and 49 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 5: they decided to take up arms and stop it when 50 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 5: it threatened to overwhelm democratic Spain. 51 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 4: Imagine that kid gets on a boat, and that kid 52 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 4: is my grandfather. My grandfather's name is Joshua, right, and 53 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 4: he's like a towering six foot three beautiful man. He's 54 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 4: studying medicine. He he's fleeing his mother. His family is 55 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 4: not wealthy. The Pilgrims are going on. He's studying medicine, 56 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 4: you know, very bright guy, but every like of sell 57 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 4: in his body says you've got to get out of here. 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 4: Also that also he gets this opportunity. He meets a 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 4: woman called Dora Klatschko, my grandmother, who's like four foot two, right, 60 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 4: but comes from a very wealthy family in Lithuania. And 61 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 4: it's kind of an arranged set up and I think 62 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 4: Joshua was paid. Anyway, they get on a boat bound 63 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 4: for South Africa. Some landed up in Scotland or oddly 64 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 4: because the boat bound for America there would they would 65 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 4: they would disemb most of the all of the people 66 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 4: on board and tell them they were in America and 67 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 4: then take a whole lot of other people and then 68 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 4: carry on to America so they could double the fee 69 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 4: by the way. But anyway, my so, Joshua and Dora 70 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 4: land up on the boat and they land in the 71 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 4: port of Durban. It's around nineteen thirty three. 72 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 5: Oh wow, okay, and. 73 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 4: They speak mostly Yiddish. They've never seen a black person 74 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 4: in their life. They land up, you know, on these 75 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 4: foreign shores. My grandmother, I think headed towards Johannesburg. And 76 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 4: this I got from my mother on her deathbed. My 77 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 4: mom passed away December seventeenth last year, so it's like 78 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 4: six seven months ago. And you know, she'd like she 79 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 4: did it magnifics, and she managed to tell those last 80 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 4: little bits of stories. And one of those was that 81 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 4: her mother, Dora, had had a child who died at 82 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 4: nine months old, and she was ann in Johannesburg when 83 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 4: the child died and Joshua, her husband, was still in Durban. 84 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 4: So you can imagine the kind of the weirdness of that, right, 85 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 4: I mean imagine your imagine your your the father of 86 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 4: your child not not coming to be with you when 87 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 4: you lose your child. Coupled with the fact that they 88 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 4: had both lost I think Dora, my grandmother, was one 89 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 4: of eight or nine children. I think only three survived 90 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 4: the Holocaust and her parents were killed, and the same 91 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 4: with Joshua. So they lost all their family and there 92 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 4: they were at the bottom tip of Africa, right without 93 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 4: without any kind of orientation. 94 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 3: Really, yeah, can you talk a little bit about you 95 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: mentioned how you described it as bottom feeders. I listened 96 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: to another podcast you were on and you said that they, 97 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 3: your family suddenly really enjoyed and appreciated the change and 98 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 3: status they had in society. Can you talk about that 99 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 3: a little bit. 100 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so you know, they got on the boat 101 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 4: as and their identity we were were there were Jews, 102 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 4: so they were expelled from Europe as Jews. The minute 103 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 4: they toes touched the land in Africa, their identity transformed 104 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 4: from being Jew to being white, right right, Suddenly they 105 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 4: were they were identified as white people, like the word 106 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 4: the word Jew almost like just fell off, you know, 107 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 4: that that yellow star that they had to wear, it 108 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 4: just fell off. So suddenly they were like, oh my god. 109 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 4: They were like utterly privileged, powerful and and in control right. 110 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 4: And with all of the with all of the corruption 111 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 4: that apartheid provided for the elite, for the white for 112 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 4: the white supremacist, for the white the white people, that 113 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 4: the Jews who arrived were able to plug into that privilege. 114 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 4: And there was about two hundred and fifty three hundred 115 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 4: thousand Jews who fled and arrived in South Africa, so 116 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 4: it was quite a big community. And they did ver 117 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 4: fucking well. Let me tell you, and I can tell 118 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 4: you why. I can tell you because my father, who 119 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 4: I just saw about three days ago, what's left of him. 120 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 4: When he was active and potent, he was the top 121 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 4: tax lawyer in South Africa, which means that his clients, 122 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 4: and those clients are people who walk through my house, 123 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,839 Speaker 4: came through my house in the seventies and the eighties 124 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 4: were probably the most hideous characters in history. You know, 125 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 4: we're talking soul Kurzner. Sol Curzner started something called Sun's 126 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 4: City and he exploited the Buntustan, the homeland system that 127 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 4: apartheid built, and he built this casino hotel resort called 128 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 4: Sun City. 129 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 3: At this point in our conversation with Adam, we wanted 130 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 3: to ask about his personal journey into anti Zionism and 131 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 3: where it all began. 132 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 5: So I think an interesting way to approach this end 133 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 5: would be like, obviously they've found themselves and your parents 134 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 5: have found themselves in this country which is systematically discriminating 135 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 5: against people, right, this is apartheid South Africa, and Jewish 136 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 5: people were at once active in the anti apartment movement, 137 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 5: and as you're saying, also active in the apartheid government 138 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 5: and the apartheid regime. And you found yourself, I guess, 139 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 5: going to this school which was explicitly Zionist. And I'm wondering, 140 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 5: at what point, and I suppose this involves seeing what's 141 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 5: happening where you are as well as what's happening in Palestine, 142 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 5: At what point did you make that connection and be 143 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 5: like her this this like what what? Because you're you're 144 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 5: a very explicitly anti Zionist, right, Like it's what was it? 145 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 5: Something you read? Something you saw? Like what caused you 146 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 5: to make that leap, and how was that received in 147 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 5: South Africa. 148 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 4: So I think it's a mixture of things. I think 149 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 4: I've got three older siblings, so I'm the last born 150 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 4: by seven years. I've got a brother Paul, seven years older, 151 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 4: sister Man who's nine years older who lives in Israel, 152 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 4: and an old My oldest brother, Jonathan, is ten years 153 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 4: older than me. Jonathan and Paul, Paul specifically was very 154 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 4: politically active, so he started an organization unlike Israel, so 155 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 4: that in South Africa the universities were like the bastions 156 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 4: of the anti apartype movement right, and he was in 157 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 4: newsas National Union or South African Students, and he started 158 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 4: a think called the End Conscription Campaign, which was to 159 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 4: fight against forced conscription of white men who were compulsory 160 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 4: called up into the army at the age of eighteen. 161 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 4: And so given the fact that he was seven years older, 162 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 4: when I hit about fourteen or fifteen, at fifteen, I 163 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 4: went on a thing called ol pun, which is kind 164 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 4: of you've heard of birthright right or pun is something. 165 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 4: So I went to the Zionist Jewish day School. So 166 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 4: every day I'd go I'd have to pray, go into 167 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 4: the synagogue, pretend to pray for about an hour, right, 168 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 4: And I was looking at my school, like my sister 169 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 4: is like a gorgeous archivist, and she made this little 170 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 4: book called Adam's Life. And I was looking at the 171 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 4: school grades at the age of six, and it was 172 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 4: like Jewish studies. And we know what those Jewish studies were, right, 173 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 4: So you walked into the Jewish Studies room and there 174 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 4: was a little blue tint which was the Jewish National Fund, 175 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 4: and you would put your spare change in there, and 176 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 4: that money would go towards making the desert bloom I say, 177 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 4: in like work marks, right, So that was that money 178 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 4: would go to plants in like two hundred and forty 179 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:33,719 Speaker 4: million pine trees in you know which I'm not indigenous 180 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 4: in Israel. But just to swing back. So at about 181 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 4: fourteen or fifteen, what happened is in parallel I was 182 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 4: being told on a daily basis two things I was 183 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 4: being told. Now you've got to remember this was the 184 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 4: heights of also the Cold War. So there were these 185 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 4: proxy wars that were being fought all around South Africa. 186 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 4: In Angola, in Mozambique. Mozambique you had for Lima were 187 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 4: backed up by Cuba, Russia. Right, you had you had 188 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 4: Ruanamo that were backed up by America and South Africa, 189 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 4: and they were running these kind of gorilla bush wars, right. 190 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 4: And many of my friends who were called up in 191 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 4: the military would be flown into Angola or into into Mozambique. 192 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 4: We dropped there, and you know, they were told, look, 193 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 4: if something happens you weren't here, Well, you're not there, 194 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 4: you know, We're not going to come and find you. 195 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 5: What I'm referring to here are the proxy conflicts throughout 196 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 5: Africa that saw national liberation movements, often supported by Cuba 197 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 5: and the USSR, fighting against various last class colonial regimes 198 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 5: and African anti communist groups. These groups are often supported 199 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 5: by the US and the guys in anti communism. These 200 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 5: wars include the Civil War in Angola, the Namibian War 201 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 5: of Independence, some of those, Ambiquan War of Independence, and 202 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 5: the zimbabwe War of Independence. You might know the last 203 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 5: one as a Rhodesian bush war, but Rhodesia doesn't exist anymore. 204 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 5: Living in the United States, it's easy to use the 205 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 5: phrase cold war as a conflict free standoff mediated by 206 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 5: nuclear powers chess something without enowledging that in many parts 207 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 5: of the world, proxy wars in these post colonial states 208 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 5: and the conflicts of decolonialization throughout the late twentieth century 209 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 5: made that period anything but cold. 210 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 4: The point is is that so at the age of fourteen, 211 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 4: I'm going to these schools and I'm being told every 212 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 4: day that if apartheid ended, that would mean the end 213 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 4: of the white people in South Africa, right, because we 214 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 4: were by far the minority. White people were by far 215 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 4: the minority, I don't know what it was, ten twelve percent, 216 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 4: And there was this kind of you could see the 217 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 4: fear because the walls started getting higher, the security gates 218 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 4: were built, the razor wire, the electric fences, you know, 219 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 4: it was it became more increasingly visible in the eighties, 220 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 4: the fear keeping keeping apart, tight, keeping people apart. So 221 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 4: I was told all the time, like if aparth he 222 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 4: had ended, that would mean the end of white people. 223 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 4: At the same time, I was told, given that my 224 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 4: community was like second generation Holocaust surviving, you know, the 225 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 4: notion of Israel as a place of salvation, a place 226 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 4: of when the ship hits the fag, that's where we 227 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 4: can go, right, And that we were always told that, 228 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 4: and we were also told daily this is a land 229 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 4: without people for a people without land. That became a 230 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 4: kind of mantra. Honestly, it was like it was said 231 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 4: to me over and over again. Right, So when and 232 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 4: what started happening is I think that I became an 233 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 4: activist at the age of sixteen. There's an amazing she's 234 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 4: now a dear friend of mine. We've reconnected. She's a 235 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 4: theater director called yah El Faber, and we started an 236 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 4: organization called Links the age of sixteen, which was to 237 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 4: educate white kids about apartheid. And what we started to 238 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 4: do was to literally kind of break the apartheid wall. 239 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 4: We'd start doing visits into Suweta, we'd start doing visits 240 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 4: into Alexandria township, and we started forming friendships. And you know, 241 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 4: most kids just didn't go out of the suburbs. And 242 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 4: suddenly we go away on these weekends like led by 243 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 4: a kind of older activists, and we'd all hang in 244 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 4: the same you know, we'd all sleep in the same 245 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 4: dormitories and we start chatting, chatting and smoking cigarettes together 246 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 4: and so like genuine just basic childhood friendship started for me. 247 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 4: And when that stuff that profound very successful. Other ring 248 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 4: that the propaganda of apartheid succeeded in creating, you know, 249 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 4: the black person as the other, as the enemy, which 250 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 4: it does it does in Israel right on the other 251 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 4: side of the apartheid wall is the worst enemy or 252 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 4: imagination could possibly conjure up right, And it's exactly the 253 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 4: same process. And suddenly when I kind of pierced that 254 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 4: wall and that started falling apart, then the kind of 255 00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: ideology around Israel and the the notion that Palestinians didn't exist, 256 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 4: suddenly they started to exist for me somehow. And so 257 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 4: it was about around the age of sixteen, I'd say. 258 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 5: And it was It's interesting that it was like through 259 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 5: your experience of living in an apartheid state that you 260 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 5: were able to I think appreciate that like that what 261 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 5: was happening to the Palestinian people was like another form 262 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 5: of set like colonialism. 263 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 4: I mean, I think, yeah, like none of this, none 264 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 4: of this is intellectual. So I think, like everything that 265 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 4: came to me or has driven to me is lucky 266 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 4: is through lived experience, it really is. So I think 267 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 4: it's like through these friendships that I realized and you know, 268 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,959 Speaker 4: like touching, touching skin, and this is one of this 269 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 4: is the difference between apartheid South African apartheid Israel Palestine 270 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 4: is that we were segregated by law, you know, I mean, 271 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 4: mixed marriages were prohibited by law. Sex was prohibited between races. 272 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 4: But the thing is that we were mixed together because 273 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 4: the labor force was needed, right, so that like you know, 274 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 4: the nineteen sixteen Tax Act forced a lot of black 275 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 4: migrant male workers into the cities to work on the 276 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 4: gold mines, which meant that there was the presence of 277 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 4: the other amongst us. And because there was the presence 278 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 4: of the other the other, there was also the desire 279 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 4: and it is a sexual desire or essential desire, and 280 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 4: the smells, and we would touch each other, and we 281 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 4: would walk through the city and kind of rub up 282 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 4: against each other. Now, my nieces and nephews having grown 283 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 4: up under the inter father and because of the apartheid War, 284 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 4: they've been deprived of that dential experience of the. 285 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 3: Other in Palestine Israel. 286 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 4: You mean in Palestine Israel. Yeah, So that you know, 287 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 4: they've built they've built this twelve foot there's twelve foot, 288 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 4: seven hundred kilometer long concrete tsunami of a wall that 289 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 4: divides people, which means that you know, until recently, nobody 290 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 4: uttered the word Palestinian because they didn't exist, right, And 291 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 4: so for my nieces and nephews, what was on the 292 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 4: other side of that wall was, like I said, their 293 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 4: worst the worst enemy that their imagination could conjure up. 294 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 4: And children's imaginations are amazing, right, And I did I 295 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 4: did say this a while back where where you know 296 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 4: how Fucos spoke about He spoke about the structures that 297 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 4: were built around the plague, and after the plague ended, 298 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 4: you were still left with these structures. Right now, let's 299 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 4: think about the apartheid wall. You've got the seven hundred 300 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 4: kilometers long, massive like concrete thing. It goes like five 301 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 4: meters underground. Yeah. Now, unlike for coose hypothesis that war 302 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 4: has created the plague, that war has created the enemy, 303 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 4: because what's on the other side of that wall, that's 304 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 4: only that's only accessible through these little checkpoints that are 305 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 4: manned by these you know, poor teenage like little foot 306 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 4: soldiers of the state. That's the that's the only way 307 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 4: to penetrate that war. So on the other side of 308 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 4: that wall is whatever you tell the people is there, 309 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 4: and that's the that's the horror of that situation. 310 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 3: I actually I'm kind of glad you brought up the 311 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 3: plague idea because you mentioned that on a different podcast, 312 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 3: and I thought it was verly like poetic to illustrate 313 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 3: that a plague can be constructed by the structure versus 314 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 3: actually be a plague. 315 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: And it's it's also kind of worth noting. You know, 316 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 2: as you were talking about the restrictions on interracial marriage 317 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 2: in South Africa, versions of that very much still exist 318 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 2: to this day in Israel, including heavy restrictions on inner 319 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: marriage between Israeli and Palestinian people. You know that that's 320 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 2: a bigger topic than I want to just kind of 321 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 2: casually get into it. Like there's a number of restrictions 322 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 2: that exist into the present day because like civil marriage 323 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 2: is not really a thing there as it is. 324 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 5: In a lot of other countries. Yeah, So I wonder, 325 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 5: like you said that Estinian people existed in your childhood 326 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 5: only as this sort of construct, right, this other construct 327 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 5: and your experience of black people in South Africa has 328 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 5: showing you that those other constructs were false and misleading 329 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 5: and served perhaps an agenda. When you decided that, like 330 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 5: your stance was anti Zionism, and then you said to 331 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 5: your guessing, to your friend, to your family, to your 332 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 5: fellow children at the school, like hey, what this is 333 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 5: fucked up here and this is fucked up there too. 334 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 5: How was the response? 335 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 4: Well, it's like, you know, one doesn't come to these 336 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 4: decisions overnight and like announce it right, right. 337 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, So. 338 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 4: There's vague memories I have, Like, like I said, I 339 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 4: was on that all Pun trip, which is like this 340 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 4: three week or three month trip. I mean they send 341 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 4: like one hundred and fifteen year old kids. You live 342 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 4: in a building in Jerusalem, and it's basically like this 343 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 4: three month propaganda tour. Right. You're given a Bible and 344 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 4: you're told that that's your guidebook. Literally you like you traverse, 345 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 4: you traverse this place following the stories of the Bible, 346 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 4: and that's meant to be like your holy land. But 347 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 4: I did have one of the one of the it's 348 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 4: called a Madrich, I think a teacher. He was he 349 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 4: must have been eighteen or nineteen. He happen to be 350 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 4: kind of like a vaguely liberal Zionist, and I remember 351 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 4: clearly him taking me to an anti Kahani protest. So 352 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 4: there was still like Maya Kahane was was alive, and 353 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 4: we know that Mayakahani, you know, the Cohanness movement, as 354 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 4: you know, was a kind of you know, they spawned 355 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 4: the ben Geviers and these fascists who are in power now, 356 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 4: but at the time they were deemed a terrorist organization 357 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 4: by America. And and I remember going to an anti 358 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 4: Kahani protest, So somehow that planted a little seed in me. 359 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 4: And I guess, you know, I think that anti Zionism 360 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 4: came afterwards because I was so focused on the anti 361 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 4: apartheid struggle because that's where I was and that's what 362 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 4: I was doing. And my university was either spent like 363 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 4: running battles with riot police or smoking weed. And I 364 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 4: literally went to about three classes. Honestly, I was definitely 365 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 4: the odd one out in my school. I mean, you 366 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 4: know it being a Zionist Jewish day school. I'm still 367 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 4: you know, I'm still probably perceived as like an absolute 368 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 4: fucking avarition. You know. 369 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, you did describe your mother in one podcasts as 370 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 3: diehard zion and so I can only imagine. And you 371 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 3: you mentioned your nephew and her husband both were in 372 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 3: the IDF, So I can only imagine. I think It's 373 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 3: it's good to bring up that despite all of that, 374 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 3: you were able to like think deeply about it and 375 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 3: work your way out of that brainwashing. Essentially, before I 376 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 3: get too carried away, let's take our first break and 377 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 3: we'll be right back. BRB and we're back. I want 378 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 3: to talk now about your experience in Germany and how 379 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 3: you experienced like state level accusations of being an anti 380 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 3: Semitic person even though you're just a vocal Jewish anti Sionist. 381 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 3: Can you talk about what led this person I didn't 382 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 3: even though this person existed Stefan Hensel, who is the 383 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 3: anti Semitism commissioner of the City of Hamburg. That's the 384 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 3: position someone has, But what led him to call you 385 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 3: these really atrocious things in so many newspapers and like 386 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 3: basically like just libelists and libelist stuff. 387 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 4: Okay, so so check it out. So my mom dies 388 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 4: the seventeenth of December. Yeah, I go away to a 389 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 4: yoga retreat where there's like, there's no like coverage. I'm like, 390 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 4: I'm offline. I get back to Berlin and there's emails 391 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 4: from like people are ready trust you know, and serious 392 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 4: people in my life saying, you know, dude, you've got 393 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 4: to respond to these allegations that are in like de 394 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 4: Zeit Billin and zeem Aad's, you know, basically every major 395 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 4: newspaper in Germany and social media all over the place. 396 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,959 Speaker 4: There's this character, like you said, Stefan Hensel, who is 397 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 4: the commission of Antisemitism for the state of Bullin. Now 398 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 4: eight of the states of Germany have commissioners of antisemitism, right, 399 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 4: none of whom are Jewish, none of whom were elected. 400 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 4: They kind of semi it's it's super weird they are, 401 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 4: it's semi legal. I mean, like nobody knows that exists. 402 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 4: Nobody knows, like nobody elects them. This character Stefan Hensel, 403 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 4: and I don't want to pay too much attention to 404 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 4: him because he's just like a nebulous Islamophobic pro Zionist, 405 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 4: you know, bureaucrat. But anyway, he does a series of 406 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 4: interviews and to summarize the numerous interviews and his social 407 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 4: media posts, I am called, quote literally a hateful anti 408 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 4: Seamite who advocates for terrorism against Jews. Now this is 409 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 4: two weeks after bearing my Jewish mother, who was a 410 00:28:53,640 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 4: second generation Holocaust survivor. Now that is that definition of 411 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 4: gaslighting right now? As a white man, it's testimony to 412 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 4: my privilege that I haven't experienced gas lighting on a 413 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 4: daily basis as most women do. Certainly every Palestinian friend 414 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 4: I have, they experience that every minute of their lives, 415 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 4: because their very essence is illegal being Palestinian. You know, 416 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 4: the blood that runs with their veins is illegal. They 417 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 4: don't exist because they're Palestinian. Right, But so I stand 418 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 4: accused of these things, and I'm like, I'm god smacked. 419 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 4: I'm like, and the reason is is because I've been 420 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 4: vocal about my support and solidarity for Palestinian rights, and. 421 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 3: It was particularly about your support for the BDS movement 422 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 3: right exactly me. 423 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 4: So BDS boycott divestment sanctions has become a kind of 424 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 4: it's like one of these terms that emergers in the world. 425 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 4: It's like terrorism or war on drugs or what aren't 426 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 4: the terms can we come up with? You know, it's 427 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 4: like it's one of these catchphrases and it's like BDS, yeah, 428 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 4: and it's like it's just like people don't even associate 429 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 4: it with boycott divestment sanctions. If you break it down, 430 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 4: you know what ended apartheid in South Africa. There was 431 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 4: no there was no sudden moral awakening. Basically the Cold 432 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 4: War ended. Reagan and Thatcher, who were total supporters of 433 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 4: apartheid South Africa, suddenly the Cold War ended. South Africa 434 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 4: wasn't that important an asset, and there was national pressure 435 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 4: and you know, more and more people started to see 436 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 4: what the atrocities that were going on, and sanctions and 437 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 4: divestments started to happen. Right, So Polaroid, the company Polaroid 438 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 4: I did a project about this was one of the 439 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 4: first companies that colluded with the South African government but 440 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 4: also divested when they were exposed, and that led to 441 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 4: a number of banks divesting from South Africa. So sanctions 442 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 4: and investments and essentially the South African government in the 443 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 4: late eighties was financially broke. So they were forced to 444 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 4: the negotiation table because they were broke, not because they 445 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 4: woke up one morning and said, oh my god, we're 446 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 4: oppressing the majority of black people in this country, and 447 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 4: and and and and you know, so, uh, it's just 448 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 4: like they were forced to and so so so b 449 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 4: d S, which is a peaceful, non violent means of 450 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 4: resistance that that that started during the second inter father 451 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 4: has become one of these catchphrases, and I'll tell you 452 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 4: a story, and and this all came to a head 453 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 4: around last year's Documenta, which happens in the city of 454 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 4: Castle in Germany. Now, document is a really interesting art 455 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 4: event in the art world calendar, and last year Documenta 456 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 4: was that was was a very very interesting little theater play. 457 00:32:53,600 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 4: So what happened during Documentary last year is that there 458 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 4: was a group of Palestinian artists who were invited to 459 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 4: show work and their space was invaded and there was 460 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 4: graffiti was sprayed on the walls. There were two things 461 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 4: were sprayed. One was the number one eight seven and 462 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 4: then the word perolta. 463 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 3: Can you just explain what those both mean? 464 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 4: I'm not exactly sure, but one eight seven I can 465 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 4: tell you, okay. And the reason I could tell you 466 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 4: is because one eight seven was spray painted outside my 467 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 4: front door, inside my apartment building. And one eight seven, 468 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 4: as any gang member in California will tell you, is 469 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 4: the Californian penal code for murder. And when you spray 470 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 4: one eight seven, it's a death threat. 471 00:33:59,280 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 472 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 4: And so and so what the media did in Germany 473 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 4: is said, oh, no, no, no, hang on, there's a 474 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 4: hip hop band in Hamburg called one eight seven. 475 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 5: Okay where that came from? 476 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 4: Wow? 477 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to mention that Sublime also has 478 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 2: a few songs with one eighth seven. 479 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 3: H They were just Sublime fans. 480 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, that song about riots. There was a radical branch 481 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 5: of the Sublime bankler. 482 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 4: I mean, I'd love to hear this music, but. 483 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 5: I think you don't want any Sublime. 484 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 4: No, no, I really do. After this, I'm going to 485 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 4: actually look and listen to But so on the morning 486 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 4: when when so back to documenta. So they spray painted 487 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 4: this stuff and and then there was a furor because 488 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 4: there was there was an Indonesian collective who did a 489 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 4: giant mural and one of the pieces that one of 490 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 4: the characters in this mural depicted an IDF soldier, an 491 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 4: Israeli Defense Force soldier or an Israeli occupying for a 492 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 4: soldier as a pig. Right policeman soldier as a pig. 493 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 4: I mean, that's an old truck. We've all done it right, 494 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 4: you know, they're the pigs. Police are the pigs. But 495 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 4: there was an ideaf as a pig and it was 496 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 4: and so it was deemed anti Semitic, and fair enough, 497 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 4: it's like it's Germany. It's an Israeli person in a 498 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 4: uniform depicted as a pig. It's tasteless, you know, it's tacky. 499 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 4: Immediately they kind of covered the mura, right, but bang 500 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 4: the troops came in. The israel lobby, the Jewish lobby 501 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 4: came in. Boom, right, they seized the opportunity and they hit, 502 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 4: and suddenly the word BDS came in. Right. And so 503 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 4: the two curators from grong Ruper, who were amongst the 504 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 4: collective who were curating that year's documentor were visiting professors 505 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 4: at the Art School in Hamburg, where I had been 506 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 4: a professor for the previous six years, Okay, and Stefan 507 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 4: Hensel like a little kind of surgeon. He pinpointed these 508 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 4: three little nitious, kind of pro Palestinian people that were 509 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 4: inside a German university, and he wanted to remove them 510 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 4: with his little tweezers. And so he grouped us together 511 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 4: and he slammed the word anti Semitism. He accused us 512 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 4: of being anti Semitic, and so he weaponized this word 513 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 4: and this word like it's such an interesting word, right, 514 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 4: anti Semitism. It's so here you've got a guy. Now 515 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 4: he's never declared, and not that it's of any interest 516 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 4: to me whether he's Jewish or not. I mean, I 517 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 4: don't think he has the right to buy into my 518 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 4: lineage of trauma. He doesn't have that right. But he 519 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 4: married a Jew. He named his son, I think David 520 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 4: or something, right, He's there's all these kind of like. 521 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 3: Gestures to make him seem like he's has the ability 522 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 3: to say these things. 523 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 4: Not not a loophole as much as a kind of 524 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,240 Speaker 4: as a kind of dress code. It's like, my son's 525 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 4: called Yeah, my son's called David. I'm married to a 526 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 4: Jewish person. I've lived in Israel for six years. I 527 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:44,240 Speaker 4: ran the Yidisham, the Israelish Germansia organization, you know, Israel 528 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 4: German organization, which is like, you know, an Islamophobic kind 529 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 4: of weird or weird ass think tank. I don't know 530 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 4: what they do, right, But the point is he has 531 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 4: this guy, and I bet you I would lay money 532 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 4: on it that his parents or his grandparents were perpetrators 533 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 4: during the Holocaust. And this is this is the way, 534 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 4: this is the psychological twist. This is like the beautiful 535 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 4: little oo that the mind does to get oneself out 536 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 4: of like feeling shit about yourself. 537 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean even attempting to remove those people from 538 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 3: their posts is like, that's a great example of Germany 539 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 3: using anti semitism, like weaponizing it at an institutional level. 540 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 3: Like that's a that's really unfortunate. I want to I 541 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 3: do want to mention this really quick. In twenty nineteen, 542 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 3: Germany tried to make BDS a hate crime. And even 543 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 3: though it was challenged and then it was found to 544 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 3: be unconstitutional, that like the fact that that tent was made, 545 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 3: from what I understand, there's still an attitude in Germany 546 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 3: about BDS being this illegal ish thing. 547 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 4: Totally exactly. So it's like, you know, my father was 548 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 4: a lawyer, as I said, so I know, I know 549 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 4: the difference between law and justice, and I know what 550 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 4: a test case means. So you bring something to trial 551 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 4: means it enters into the the language of society, right, 552 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 4: And when you say, is BDS anti semitic and you 553 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 4: like test this thing, suddenly there's this presumption and there 554 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 4: is a presumption that BDS is anti Semitic. And I 555 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,799 Speaker 4: can give you concrete examples of how it's happened, how 556 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 4: it's played out over the last couple of years. 557 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 3: Oh wait, what I want James to mention? You looked 558 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 3: up that word, right, James is. 559 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm familiar with her, unfortunately, and I think this 560 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 5: kind of lines up with the sort of she came 561 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 5: on the scene in twenty twenty one that I had 562 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 5: been around doing antiempitism for a long time. She is 563 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 5: a self self described fascist in Spain. She's part of 564 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 5: a group or at the time was leading a group 565 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 5: called Juvental Patriothrica, which is patriotic youth. And like the 566 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,919 Speaker 5: speech that she's most famous for was delivered at a 567 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 5: commemoration for the Division a Fool, which is a blue division. 568 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 5: They're the Francoist volunteers who fought for Nazi Germany, which 569 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 5: you know, if you're commemorating that, you're kind of a 570 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 5: piece of shit. And then she went on to be 571 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 5: a further piece of shit. I suppose by like, she's 572 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 5: very explicit in her anti Semitism, right, she doesn't do 573 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 5: what a lot of these people do and kind of 574 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 5: veil it. She talks about Jewish people as the eternal enemy. 575 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 5: And it's worth pointing out that in Spain Spain has 576 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,720 Speaker 5: had what's largely called anti Semitism without Jews, or sometimes 577 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,959 Speaker 5: called that because Spain conducted ethnic cleansing or conducted a 578 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 5: literally they'll call it an olympia, like a cleansing and 579 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 5: a removal of Jewish people, and Spanish Jewish population is 580 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 5: still very small, and so this sort of virulent anti 581 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 5: Semitism that were seeing on her behalf, it had impacts 582 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 5: all around Europe, and she was kind of the most 583 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 5: prominent and outspoken anti Semitic for a little while there. 584 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 3: So that was the name they graffitied along with one 585 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 3: of your seven. 586 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,879 Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess trying to tie this documentar to her 587 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 5: disgusting anti Semitic, which is entirely distinct things, right, like 588 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 5: I think, as you were saying, and like that, by 589 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 5: putting the two in the same phrase, we conflate them 590 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 5: when when they are entirely distinct things. And she, I 591 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 5: think all of us would agree, is a terrible person views. 592 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 4: But if we dig a little deeper, we get to 593 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 4: the core, which is why did the Nazis and the 594 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 4: Zionists collaborate in the nineteen thirties, Because they had the 595 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 4: same desire. They wanted the same outcome. They wanted the 596 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 4: Jews out of Europe. They wanted them to move to Palestine. Right. 597 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,280 Speaker 4: Zionism was a European project started in the early twentieth 598 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 4: century in Vienna. They wanted the Jews out of Europe 599 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 4: and into Palestine. The Zionists did so, they collaborated. And 600 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 4: I think, really, truly, I think that we do face 601 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 4: a real threat of real anti Semitism in Germany. And 602 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 4: I have two children. My daughter is thirteen, her name 603 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 4: is Lennie. My little boy is ten, his name's Marlow. 604 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 4: And if you look at the police report of twenty 605 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 4: twenty two that was released in Berlin, there are multiple 606 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 4: numerous incidents of visual and quite violent incidents of real 607 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:32,719 Speaker 4: anti Semitism. Right, And why are we not addressing that? 608 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 4: Because my kids are in danger? And instead we have 609 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 4: the Minister of Culture, whose name is Claudia Roff. Stand up. 610 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 4: A couple of weeks ago on a Friday night at 611 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 4: the opening of Hakka. There, you know, a huge institution. 612 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,919 Speaker 4: My dear friend Bonaventour, who comes from Cameroon is he's 613 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 4: been made the head of this institution. And it's a 614 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 4: Friday night and the whole is full of people, and 615 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 4: it's glorious. It's a beautiful night. I mean, you have 616 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 4: diversity like you've never seen. This is like queer diverse blackness, 617 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 4: indigenous thought. It's queer thought. It's like fucking Peaches is there? 618 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 4: Everyone's there, you know what I mean. And Claudia Raff 619 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 4: takes the stage, she takes the microphone, and what does 620 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 4: she say? She says, and there's silence in the room, 621 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 4: and she says, BDS is anti submittic. Like what the fuck? Yeah, 622 00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 4: BDS is antisemitic. And I'll tell you I love Boner. Now, 623 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 4: let me tell you about bonov into A Bonnach came 624 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 4: from Cameroon thirteen years ago. He has a PhD. His 625 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 4: PhD is in biotechnology. He worked all day building pacemakers 626 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,840 Speaker 4: while he set up a cultural institution called Savvy Contemporary 627 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 4: and Savvy represented the biopop community in Berlin and in Germany. Right, 628 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 4: Bonner is a genius. He deals with post colonialism like 629 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:47,479 Speaker 4: I mean, he's a maestro. He's amazing what he has done. 630 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 4: He's changed the landscape of this country. He's brought colonialism 631 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,359 Speaker 4: into the into the discourse of the country, into the culture. Right, 632 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 4: my fear is is. They've used him as a trojan horse, 633 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,360 Speaker 4: and they've got the German States have got their fist 634 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 4: up his fucking ass. And that night when he it 635 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:20,440 Speaker 4: was Bonner's night, it was it was the night of diversity. 636 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,360 Speaker 4: There comes this pernicious minister of Culture and she stands 637 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 4: up and out of the blue, she says, BDS is 638 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 4: anti Semitic. Bonner because he's such a graceful, smart man, 639 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 4: and because he knows that we are fighting intersectional struggles 640 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:49,760 Speaker 4: that happen at different velocities and happen at different speeds 641 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 4: and come at different angles. He came up on stage 642 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:59,800 Speaker 4: and he said, we come in peace. It scares me, No, it's. 643 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 3: It's I could only imagine what it was like to 644 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 3: be there a person. I mean, it sounds mortifying, especially 645 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,800 Speaker 3: if you're Palestinian or Arab bird just an anti Zionism 646 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 3: in general. I brought up a story here that I 647 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,800 Speaker 3: heard Adam talk about on a different show, but future 648 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 3: me is recording this now because I wanted you to 649 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 3: have some more context to the story so you can 650 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,479 Speaker 3: really grasp the irony of it all. It's a great 651 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 3: example of the divide and intensity that happens or that 652 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 3: can happen with anti Zionists and Zionists within the Jewish 653 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,239 Speaker 3: community itself. Adam said that some of the people who 654 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,919 Speaker 3: he had assumed were friends and allies have disappeared, which 655 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,720 Speaker 3: is one of the prices you pay for criticizing Israel. 656 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 3: Adam had been spending more time in Hebron, what he 657 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,360 Speaker 3: described as a wasteland. He said in a previous interview 658 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 3: that you spend ten minutes at Hebron and you get 659 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 3: the notion of apartheid, occupation and Jewish supremacy. You get 660 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 3: it and no one has to utter the words. Adam 661 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 3: has documented violence in places like maximum security jails Afghanistan 662 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,880 Speaker 3: two thousand and three, Iraq two thousand and five, but 663 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 3: he said that two times he's felt the most existentially 664 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 3: and physically a threat of death. One of those times 665 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,480 Speaker 3: was last year when he was in Hebron and him 666 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 3: and his team went to take photos of olive trees. 667 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,799 Speaker 3: Olive trees in that area can be two thousand to 668 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 3: four thousand years old, and since nineteen sixty seven, Israeli 669 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:28,440 Speaker 3: settlers have destroyed one million of these trees. I have 670 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,320 Speaker 3: an episode about this and the significance of the Palestine 671 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 3: olive tree, about how it's not only an immensely important 672 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,560 Speaker 3: crop but also a symbol of Palestinian culture and resistance. 673 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,600 Speaker 3: I talk about this in that episode as well, but 674 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,640 Speaker 3: it bears repeating that destroying olive trees is one of 675 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,160 Speaker 3: the most clear examples that Zionism isn't about wanting to 676 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 3: return to a sacred land that is destined to you. Instead, 677 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 3: Zionism is hateful and inexcusable. Adam shares this sentiment, which 678 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 3: I appreciate, and I really loved learning about his work 679 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 3: with olive trees. I just don't think Zionists have any 680 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,800 Speaker 3: kind of rebuttal or reasoning to support why the hell 681 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 3: they keep destroying olive trees decade after decade, Like in 682 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,719 Speaker 3: what universe can you say and believe that you have 683 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:19,080 Speaker 3: a genuine attachment to that land, a biblical right to 684 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,200 Speaker 3: that land? Like how could you say that you love 685 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,319 Speaker 3: that land as a sacred space but then also go 686 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:29,920 Speaker 3: and destroy what Adam describes as its quote oldest indigenous citizens, 687 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,680 Speaker 3: aka the olive trees. That's not a person who loves 688 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 3: that land that it's a person who was driven by hate. 689 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,280 Speaker 3: So Adam is working to preserve and protect these trees. 690 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,800 Speaker 3: Settlers pour gasoline down the center of the tree trunk, 691 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 3: so by the time you see smoke, the tree is 692 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,799 Speaker 3: already dead. He was there and have Brun with a 693 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 3: camera taking photos of the trees, and then Jewish settlers 694 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,560 Speaker 3: sent these packs of kids that he said were ages 695 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 3: five to seventeen, dressed in full religious garb, accompanied by 696 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,400 Speaker 3: these reals military. Adam and his crew kept getting attacked 697 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,840 Speaker 3: by these kids as the military stood by, but he 698 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,400 Speaker 3: explained that you can't lift a finger to defend yourself 699 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,400 Speaker 3: because these kids are miners. Adam talked about this and said, 700 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 3: if I was Palestinian and I pushed back, I would 701 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 3: be shot on the spot. The fact that I'm Jewish, 702 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,000 Speaker 3: I would just be removed and the work would simply 703 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,520 Speaker 3: be over. So he got beaten pretty badly several times, 704 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,840 Speaker 3: and apparently there's footage of it somewhere, and his experience 705 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 3: and have Bron again is one of those two times 706 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,600 Speaker 3: that he's felt the most existentially and physically at the 707 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 3: threat of death. The second time happened a few days later, 708 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,560 Speaker 3: which is the story. I briefly mentioned to him in 709 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,839 Speaker 3: the recording that we did that I want to talk 710 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,080 Speaker 3: about more here. So a few days after that incident, 711 00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,719 Speaker 3: Adam returned to Berlin and it happened to be the 712 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,320 Speaker 3: anniversary of krystel Nacht or the Night of Broken Glass, 713 00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,520 Speaker 3: which is widely known as the beginning of the Holocaust. 714 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,480 Speaker 3: It's also called the November Pagrome, and it was a 715 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,839 Speaker 3: pugrum against Jews carried out by the Nazi Party with 716 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 3: some participation from the Hitler youth and German civilians throughout 717 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,920 Speaker 3: Nazi Germany on the ninth and tenth of November in 718 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 3: nineteen thirty eight. The German authorities looked on as this 719 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:20,279 Speaker 3: happened without intervening. The name Krystelnacht is literally translated to 720 00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,560 Speaker 3: crystal knight, and this name comes from the shards of 721 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,640 Speaker 3: broken glass that littered the streets after the windows of 722 00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:32,160 Speaker 3: Jewish owned stores, buildings and synagogues were smashed. So back 723 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:36,600 Speaker 3: to Adam's story, a memorial for Krystelnacht is held at 724 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,399 Speaker 3: the site of the two oldest synagogues that had been 725 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,799 Speaker 3: burned down in Germany. Adam arrived there with a crew 726 00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 3: holding signs that said Jews against Fascism. Everywhere. He's surrounded 727 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,480 Speaker 3: by fellow Jewish people, And this big guy comes up 728 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,399 Speaker 3: to Adam, and Adam describes this guy as being much 729 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,040 Speaker 3: bigger and much taller than him. And so this big 730 00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,560 Speaker 3: guy looks down at Adam and he says, get rid 731 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,839 Speaker 3: of those signs. Who gave you the right to be here? 732 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 3: Adam responded, quote the death of ninety percent of my family? 733 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,920 Speaker 3: What troubles you about the sign? Are you anti Semitic? 734 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 3: Are you fascist? Are you bothered by the word everywhere? 735 00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,919 Speaker 3: Have you got this weird synesthesia thing where you see 736 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 3: the word everywhere and you see Israel? Do you think 737 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 3: I'm implying that there's a possibility that Israel could have 738 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:29,360 Speaker 3: fascist traits? In response to this, this big guy starts 739 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:35,120 Speaker 3: attacking Adam. So Adam ran absolutely terrified. He ran and 740 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:39,400 Speaker 3: sought protection from the German police. The irony of a 741 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,720 Speaker 3: Jewish person feeling his life threatened by another Jewish person 742 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 3: and then seeking refuge from the German police. Adam says, 743 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,240 Speaker 3: this was the most surreal moment of his life. 744 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,560 Speaker 4: So so ironic. But let me flip that story on 745 00:53:55,640 --> 00:54:00,480 Speaker 4: its head, right And now, okay, So it's nineteen eight 746 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,959 Speaker 4: and I am on the front page of a newspaper, 747 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,320 Speaker 4: and I get home to my mother and she's furious. 748 00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,839 Speaker 4: She's fucking furious because there I am on the front 749 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 4: page of the newspaper and I'm hold, I'm there, my 750 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,440 Speaker 4: face is there, and I'm holding up a flower, and 751 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,200 Speaker 4: in front of me is a is a South African 752 00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:29,480 Speaker 4: riot policeman. Right, And it was one of the demonstrations 753 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,719 Speaker 4: I was at at the age of eighteen, on the 754 00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:35,479 Speaker 4: campus at Vitsa University, all right, And I got into 755 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,040 Speaker 4: ship from my mother, who said, what the fuck are 756 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,000 Speaker 4: you doing standing in front of the riot police. I 757 00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,920 Speaker 4: got into ship from a black student society because we, 758 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,440 Speaker 4: as white students, took orders from a black student society. 759 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,360 Speaker 4: He said, what are you doing holding a flower to 760 00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,440 Speaker 4: the fucking pig. It's like, this is this is not 761 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,719 Speaker 4: the nineteen sixties. We're fighting a struggle. So I got 762 00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:02,400 Speaker 4: in ship from both sides. Right now, cut to May 763 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,000 Speaker 4: a few months ago, I mean Iranian Platz. There is 764 00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:13,319 Speaker 4: a commemoration organized for the ongoing Knuckba. All right, we 765 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,239 Speaker 4: know what the Knuckba is, the catastrophe, right, so in 766 00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,080 Speaker 4: nineteen we don't have to explain that, but all for 767 00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:25,000 Speaker 4: two the year before that, all commemorations for the Knackbar 768 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:30,880 Speaker 4: were banned, and in May, the commemorations for the Knackbar 769 00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,839 Speaker 4: organized by Palestinian groups were banned. So yidsha Stima, which 770 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:41,839 Speaker 4: means Jewish voices the organization. They organized a commemoration and 771 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:46,799 Speaker 4: we gathered together on a beautiful Sunday morning, and you know, 772 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,000 Speaker 4: it was really lovely, and there were kids there, there 773 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,400 Speaker 4: were old people. It was great and we were all 774 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 4: all gathered together there and we gave the platform to 775 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:02,279 Speaker 4: some Palestinian voices who were just speaking about freedom from 776 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:06,080 Speaker 4: the river to the sea, you know, and suddenly the 777 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,840 Speaker 4: riot police came boom, boom, boom, you know, lines of 778 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,560 Speaker 4: them intercepted us. And I was faced again at the 779 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:20,280 Speaker 4: age of fifty two, not eighteen, so flipped from nineteen 780 00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:25,040 Speaker 4: eighty eight to twenty twenty three. And I'm facing eye 781 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 4: to eye with a fucking white riot policeman and it 782 00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,440 Speaker 4: was the same riot policeman. And you know what I 783 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,359 Speaker 4: said to him. I said to him, where was your 784 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,360 Speaker 4: grandmother during the war? And he didn't answer me, and 785 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:44,200 Speaker 4: I said, do you know where my grandmother was? And 786 00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:50,480 Speaker 4: he said, I don't care, at which point I turned 787 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:56,960 Speaker 4: around and two or three, and there's there's footage of 788 00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,399 Speaker 4: this from every single angle. Two or three of these 789 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,279 Speaker 4: right policemen jumped on top of me, brutally beat me 790 00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,800 Speaker 4: and arrested me, handcuffed me. The handcuffed me so tightly 791 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,160 Speaker 4: that they had to call the fucking fire brigade to 792 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,120 Speaker 4: cut the handcuffs off me. And hang on, it gets worse. 793 00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,920 Speaker 4: Then an hour later, I'm on the front page of 794 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:24,720 Speaker 4: the Berlin Zetel. There I am being marched off by 795 00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:29,000 Speaker 4: German police, riot police, and you know what, the headline says, 796 00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:40,000 Speaker 4: one hundred anti Semitic Palestinian protesters disrupt Jewish memorial. Check 797 00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 4: it out, Check it out, and you know what, I 798 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:48,600 Speaker 4: think it's still up there. Yeah, Okay, this is where 799 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:52,480 Speaker 4: we're at. This is where we're at in this country. Like, 800 00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,160 Speaker 4: forget fact checking. This is not a Palestinian. I'm a 801 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:02,480 Speaker 4: fucking Jew. You've arrested, had a fucking third generation Holocaust 802 00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:07,320 Speaker 4: surviving Jew, your mother fucking Nazi. And they tell me 803 00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,760 Speaker 4: de Nazification never happened in this country. There's no such 804 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:17,720 Speaker 4: thing as neo Nazis. They're Nazis man and this Stefan Henzl, 805 00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:22,800 Speaker 4: he wants the Jews out of Germany. That's what's underneath 806 00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,480 Speaker 4: all of the shit, right, because if they were worried 807 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:32,320 Speaker 4: about antisemitism, let's talk about antisemitism, okay, because I've got 808 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,160 Speaker 4: kids and they need to be safe. 809 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:35,760 Speaker 5: Yeah. 810 00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:38,280 Speaker 2: I mean I was reading the other day a news 811 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:41,880 Speaker 2: article from I think fifty one or fifty two that 812 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,720 Speaker 2: was about one of the god Now I was facing 813 00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,480 Speaker 2: at his name, but he was. He was a Wehrmacht 814 00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,000 Speaker 2: general who was you know, commanded troops on the Ast Front, 815 00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,680 Speaker 2: survived the war and later got into German politics, And 816 00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:55,640 Speaker 2: it was just a it was an article about one 817 00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,880 Speaker 2: of his political rallies where protesters were like broken up, 818 00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,440 Speaker 2: beaten up by German police officers. And it's kind of 819 00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,200 Speaker 2: this this same like, yeah, what were your what was 820 00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,400 Speaker 2: your family doing during those twelve years? You know, like 821 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,760 Speaker 2: it's it's really it's a question you can ask, but 822 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,160 Speaker 2: it's rarely really a question, right, right, Yeah, Like there 823 00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,320 Speaker 2: was never any That's such an important point, you know, 824 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,360 Speaker 2: particularly when we talk about like why there is you know, 825 00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,560 Speaker 2: such what you can call technically support for Israel that's rooted, 826 00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,080 Speaker 2: as you noted, often in just getting Jewish people out 827 00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,720 Speaker 2: of Germany, like there was never any kind of real denazification. 828 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,400 Speaker 5: No, yeah, no, no, no systemic level. 829 00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,680 Speaker 4: This is all about white supremacy, man, because I'll tell 830 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:45,720 Speaker 4: you what. And this goes deeper. On the fifteenth of July, 831 00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:51,640 Speaker 4: they made a law in Berlin that all public swimming pools. 832 00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,840 Speaker 4: They claim that there was a rise in violence in 833 00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:03,560 Speaker 4: public swimming pools in Berlin, Okay, reticularly in Neikol and Kreutzberg, which, 834 01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:08,320 Speaker 4: as we know, are the areas of migrants, particularly Palestinian 835 01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:14,560 Speaker 4: Middle Eastern migrants. Right. And in fact, if you look 836 01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:21,160 Speaker 4: at the statistics from twenty nineteen to two twenty twenty two, 837 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,800 Speaker 4: violence has gone down by twenty one or twenty three percent, 838 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:31,400 Speaker 4: I can't remember correctly, so that's incorrect. But now we 839 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:36,360 Speaker 4: have a state a position where at the entrance of 840 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,320 Speaker 4: every swimming pool there is a police fan and they 841 01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:47,560 Speaker 4: are ethnically and racially profiling people who come into swimming pools. Right. 842 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,840 Speaker 4: And there is basically a law that says that there 843 01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:57,200 Speaker 4: shall not be more than three men read three men 844 01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:04,280 Speaker 4: of color in a public swimming pool. Okay, And this 845 01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,920 Speaker 4: is where we're heading. Felix Klein, who's the federal Commission 846 01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:12,959 Speaker 4: of Anti Semitism Stephan Henzel, who's the Hamburg one these 847 01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:20,000 Speaker 4: people that the mayor of Berlin. On Pentecost night, he tweeted, 848 01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:23,400 Speaker 4: check out check out his tweet. He tweeted something It 849 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:27,520 Speaker 4: went like this, It said, we wish everybody a happy 850 01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:34,320 Speaker 4: Pentecost and we wish our guests a lovely time our guests. 851 01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,240 Speaker 4: This is like, dude, I mean, you know. 852 01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:45,760 Speaker 6: That Christian it's grim It's fucking grim man. And you 853 01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,440 Speaker 6: know these people want a white they want a white 854 01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:54,400 Speaker 6: Aryan Christian fucking country. They want the dark people out. 855 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,280 Speaker 3: I mean that's a huge part that people don't realize, 856 01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:02,120 Speaker 3: as that Zionism is mostly white supremacy, mostly very anti 857 01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,920 Speaker 3: anti Jewish, because that's its advocates for, just like the 858 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:07,600 Speaker 3: expulsion of the Jews. 859 01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:11,800 Speaker 4: Again, well, it's a fucking mental illness, is what it is. 860 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:13,680 Speaker 3: I don't disagree with you. 861 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,600 Speaker 5: I just wanted to reflect, like maybe as we as 862 01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:19,720 Speaker 5: we end up on how far the needle has swung 863 01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:24,680 Speaker 5: when we talk about like anti Semitism, anti Zionism, and 864 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,280 Speaker 5: sort of where they because they do have a lap, yeah, 865 01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,760 Speaker 5: but they don't know they are not the same thing. 866 01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,680 Speaker 5: And I think about how there's this a letter of 867 01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:34,400 Speaker 5: that is the New York Times published like it was 868 01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,240 Speaker 5: in the late nineteen forties forty eight, forty nine. It 869 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,200 Speaker 5: co signed by a lot of prominent Jewish intellectuals, including 870 01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:46,160 Speaker 5: Hannah Rent Albert Einstein, talking about the settler policies in 871 01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:48,600 Speaker 5: Israel at that time by Zionist groups at that time 872 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,440 Speaker 5: as fascist, which is something that would now be considered 873 01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:57,360 Speaker 5: to be like antisemit, Like that's calling Israel fascist was 874 01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,920 Speaker 5: what got you chased at him by that guy. It's 875 01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,480 Speaker 5: considered to be anti Semitic in Germany, right, And these 876 01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:07,280 Speaker 5: are people who you know, had lost family members, you know, 877 01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:09,880 Speaker 5: they can their nuclear family to the Holocaust, like prominent 878 01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:15,120 Speaker 5: Jewish intellectuals who would now be considered I guess anti 879 01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,880 Speaker 5: semitic under this by saying shit, New York Times would 880 01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:20,440 Speaker 5: publish and the Times would have publish that. 881 01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:24,680 Speaker 4: Now. Yeah, you know, a few of us got together 882 01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,120 Speaker 4: in Iranian plus in a place where we were arrested 883 01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:31,040 Speaker 4: in May a few like Jewish friends of mine, like 884 01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:35,200 Speaker 4: some from Brooklyn, some from Israel, some from here, and 885 01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:40,840 Speaker 4: you know, five nights ago a young Palesan man was 886 01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:47,000 Speaker 4: arrested by twelve Israeli policemen and they branded a they 887 01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:53,120 Speaker 4: cut with a knife the Star of David into his child. Yeah, 888 01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:58,680 Speaker 4: and there's footage of this, and they literally cut the 889 01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:03,240 Speaker 4: Star of David into his cheek. And we wore red 890 01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:08,680 Speaker 4: Stars of David at the schedule tonight, and it just 891 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,760 Speaker 4: strikes me as ironic. You know, like eighty years ago, 892 01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:16,800 Speaker 4: my ancestors were forced to wear a yellow star as 893 01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:22,440 Speaker 4: a lapel on their armband or stuck to their jackets 894 01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:27,040 Speaker 4: to shame them, to declare them as Jews, as dirty 895 01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:31,120 Speaker 4: Jews in public. And now I feel like I've got 896 01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:35,880 Speaker 4: to wear this red star because of our collective shame, 897 01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,680 Speaker 4: because of what's being done in our name by the 898 01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:46,080 Speaker 4: State of Israel and by Zionism. And this is not 899 01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:52,120 Speaker 4: allowed to be done in my name. Really, sorry to 900 01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,680 Speaker 4: be so grim. Fuck no, I mean, if. 901 01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:56,040 Speaker 2: There was ever an ending story. 902 01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:57,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's a. 903 01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:59,880 Speaker 3: Grim story, but I think it's a great place to end. 904 01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:01,720 Speaker 3: There's still so much I want to ask you. I 905 01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,360 Speaker 3: would love to know your thoughts about like liberal Zionism, 906 01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,800 Speaker 3: but that's gonna have to wait for next time. Thank 907 01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:09,480 Speaker 3: you for giving us time in the middle or the 908 01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:10,440 Speaker 3: early mornings. 909 01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:12,520 Speaker 4: Thank you so much of course. 910 01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:16,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, Adam, where can people find you online and help 911 01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:17,760 Speaker 5: support the advocacy you're doing. 912 01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:21,800 Speaker 4: Mostly I'm a bit of a geriatric, so I'm just 913 01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:25,200 Speaker 4: on Instagram. Adam Broomberg put it in. 914 01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:29,800 Speaker 3: The description for anyone that is curious. Thank you for 915 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:33,320 Speaker 3: doing your work. Everyone will follow Adam, make sure everyone doesn't. 916 01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:38,040 Speaker 3: Let's let's protect Adam. Let's protect Adam and his family 917 01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,120 Speaker 3: out there. But thank you again. 918 01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:41,480 Speaker 4: Thank you guys. 919 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you, thank you. Adam really appreciate me. 920 01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:46,040 Speaker 3: And that's the episode. 921 01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,520 Speaker 5: Hi everyone, it's me James, and I'm coming to eat today, sweaty, 922 01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:03,600 Speaker 5: smelly and exhausted from my pickup truck out in the 923 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:08,640 Speaker 5: desert where I have been spending the weekend trying my 924 01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:11,920 Speaker 5: best to help, along with lots of other dedicated mutual 925 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:15,560 Speaker 5: aid workers, to mitigate the damage done by an entirely 926 01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:20,479 Speaker 5: preventable humanitarian crisis at the United States southern border. People 927 01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,760 Speaker 5: are being held in the open desert in Hakomba, where 928 01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:26,560 Speaker 5: it gets hot in the day gets very cold at night. 929 01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:29,120 Speaker 5: And there are children, there are old people, there are 930 01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,400 Speaker 5: young people. All the support they're getting it's from mutual 931 01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,600 Speaker 5: aid workers. Then maybe get some water from border patrol, 932 01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:39,080 Speaker 5: from federal government, and not much else. And I'm here 933 01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:42,640 Speaker 5: before your podcast to ask you if you can to help. 934 01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,680 Speaker 5: We've all spent all of our time and most of 935 01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:49,240 Speaker 5: our money the last few days week trying to help, 936 01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:51,760 Speaker 5: and we're all pretty broke, and we're all pretty tired. 937 01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,480 Speaker 5: But I could really do with your support. And I'm 938 01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:57,320 Speaker 5: going to give the venmos and cash apps and pay 939 01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:00,680 Speaker 5: pal information for two organizations who I dearly love and 940 01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:04,680 Speaker 5: whose work I have seen is extremely effective and is 941 01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:08,040 Speaker 5: the only thing keeping this situation from being a lot worse. 942 01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:09,840 Speaker 5: And please don't think that if you don't have much 943 01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:14,240 Speaker 5: money that you shouldn't give. We can do a lot 944 01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:15,919 Speaker 5: with a little. So if you only have five bucks, 945 01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,840 Speaker 5: that is great. And five bucks is are top for 946 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,920 Speaker 5: someone to sleep under or a few hot meals. And 947 01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,680 Speaker 5: what we're going to buy is food, blankets, tops, water, 948 01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,600 Speaker 5: the things that stop people dying in the desert. Those 949 01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:30,520 Speaker 5: two organizations, Border Kindness and Free Shit Collective, can be 950 01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,320 Speaker 5: found online at border Kindness and at free ship PB 951 01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,760 Speaker 5: on Twitter for Border Kindness, The venmo is at border 952 01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:41,320 Speaker 5: hyphen Kindness. The cash app is dollar sign border Kindness 953 01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,440 Speaker 5: Cash and the zell and PayPal. Information is info at 954 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:48,280 Speaker 5: Borderkindness dot org. Free Ship Collective are at free ship 955 01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:51,320 Speaker 5: Collective on cash app and PayPal and at free shippbe 956 01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:53,200 Speaker 5: on Twitter. Thank you very much, guys. 957 01:07:58,600 --> 01:07:59,240 Speaker 4: Welcome Jake. 958 01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,320 Speaker 7: It happened here a podcast about things falling apart and 959 01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:05,280 Speaker 7: sometimes how to put them back together again. I'm your host, 960 01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:08,320 Speaker 7: Bio Wong. Now, this is not one of those times 961 01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:10,280 Speaker 7: where it's about how to put things back together again. 962 01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:12,920 Speaker 7: This is one of those episodes about why everything is 963 01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:16,680 Speaker 7: absolutely awful. And one of the reasons why everything is 964 01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:19,880 Speaker 7: absolutely awful, and something I've been driven progressively more and 965 01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,000 Speaker 7: more insane by in the past sort of half a 966 01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,519 Speaker 7: decade is the way people think and talk about class 967 01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:29,080 Speaker 7: in the United States. Why, for example, do people think 968 01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,040 Speaker 7: that Trump is working class? Why am I watching people 969 01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,960 Speaker 7: argue that being a barista isn't actually being a worker. 970 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,360 Speaker 7: Why are all these millionaires driving forward f one fifties 971 01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:42,400 Speaker 7: while simultaneously claiming that they are also somehow working class. 972 01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,920 Speaker 7: Why are billionaires fleeing to Colorado and Wyoming to cause 973 01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,840 Speaker 7: play as workers about wearing jeans and T shirts to bars? 974 01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,120 Speaker 7: Why is every weight ring dipshit posting the same video 975 01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:55,000 Speaker 7: of a guy in an oil rig committing approximately sixty 976 01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:58,160 Speaker 7: thousand OSHA violations. Why is it that the only part 977 01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:01,120 Speaker 7: of the working class that anyone ever seems to call 978 01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:04,600 Speaker 7: the working class is the white working class. Why is 979 01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:06,679 Speaker 7: it that when people talk about the white working class 980 01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:08,519 Speaker 7: and then try to explain it with data, and this 981 01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,120 Speaker 7: is true across the entire ideological spectrum, why do they 982 01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:15,599 Speaker 7: start defining working class by things that are objectively not class, 983 01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:20,320 Speaker 7: like education levels. This reached a breaking point with me 984 01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:22,840 Speaker 7: a few weeks ago and has finally caused me to 985 01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:27,759 Speaker 7: snap and write this now, I've given the game away 986 01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:30,599 Speaker 7: a little by leading with the white working class stuff, 987 01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,600 Speaker 7: because a lot of the reason that everything sounds so 988 01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:36,479 Speaker 7: nuts is that when people talk about class in the US, 989 01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:39,640 Speaker 7: most of the time, what they're actually talking about is 990 01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,160 Speaker 7: race and gender. And this pisses me off because I 991 01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:45,240 Speaker 7: think more about class that a lot of people with 992 01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:47,880 Speaker 7: my ideology usually do, and I think it can actually 993 01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:51,559 Speaker 7: be a very useful way to understand the world. However, 994 01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,560 Speaker 7: comma thinking and talking about class as a kind of 995 01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:59,200 Speaker 7: floating signifier that you can just jam conservative racial and 996 01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:02,519 Speaker 7: gender politic into is a really, really bad way to 997 01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:05,760 Speaker 7: talk about class. On top of just the racism and 998 01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:09,599 Speaker 7: the sexism, this way of looking at class reduces class, 999 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,439 Speaker 7: which is a social relation, into esthetics and grievances. And 1000 01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:17,479 Speaker 7: this leads to the question how did this all happen? Now, 1001 01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:20,280 Speaker 7: you could take a really expansive look at this here 1002 01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:24,080 Speaker 7: and go back to Aristotle or start later with Locke 1003 01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:28,840 Speaker 7: or something. But I'm not going to do that because, well, okay, 1004 01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,280 Speaker 7: partially because this would be seventeen years long if I 1005 01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:33,599 Speaker 7: tried to do this, and this episode is already now 1006 01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:36,280 Speaker 7: three episodes. The other reason I'm not going to do 1007 01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:41,760 Speaker 7: this is that the actual story of how everything got 1008 01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:44,440 Speaker 7: like this is the story of how the right adapted 1009 01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:48,360 Speaker 7: and distorted the incredibly successful leftist conception of labor that 1010 01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:50,599 Speaker 7: built the identity of the working class in the eighteen 1011 01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:53,960 Speaker 7: and nineteen hundreds. And in order to do that, we 1012 01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:56,960 Speaker 7: need to talk about the labor theory of value. Now, 1013 01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,160 Speaker 7: when I talk about the labor theory of value, there 1014 01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:05,200 Speaker 7: there are two things going on here. You have, on 1015 01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:08,479 Speaker 7: the one hand, Marx's law of value, and then you 1016 01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,240 Speaker 7: have the set of slogans that are passed down the 1017 01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:14,960 Speaker 7: mainline of the workers movements and these are not these 1018 01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,800 Speaker 7: are not the same thing at all. Even though when 1019 01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,040 Speaker 7: someone just says the labor theory of value, if that's 1020 01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:23,720 Speaker 7: a thing that you've heard of, you probably immediately think Marx. So, 1021 01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,720 Speaker 7: for example, let's get into a sense of sort of 1022 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:30,160 Speaker 7: what this, this kind of like sloganeering looks like. Here's 1023 01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,200 Speaker 7: the beginning of the Gotha Program, which is the program 1024 01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:35,920 Speaker 7: of the German Social Democratic Party in late eighteen hundreds. 1025 01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:39,639 Speaker 7: It begins, quote, labor is the source of all wealth 1026 01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:44,080 Speaker 7: and all culture. Now Marx hates this line. He writes 1027 01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:46,320 Speaker 7: a thing called the Critique of the Gotha Program, where 1028 01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,000 Speaker 7: he goes on a giant rant about how you know, 1029 01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:53,479 Speaker 7: nature also produces use values and so on and so forth. 1030 01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:57,000 Speaker 7: But you know, Marx just sort of bitterness at this aside, 1031 01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,840 Speaker 7: labor is the source of all wealth is a very 1032 01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,080 Speaker 7: very common sentiments. It's the expression of the sort of 1033 01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:06,439 Speaker 7: common understanding of production, class, and nature of value. In 1034 01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:10,679 Speaker 7: the nineteenth and early twentieth century, as the anthropologist David 1035 01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:13,640 Speaker 7: Graeber pointed out, Abraham Lincoln, a man who is by 1036 01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:16,040 Speaker 7: no means a socialist and is in fact the President 1037 01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:20,559 Speaker 7: of the United States, talks like this. Here's Lincoln quote, 1038 01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:25,080 Speaker 7: labor is prior to an independent of capital. Capital is 1039 01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:27,759 Speaker 7: only the fruit of labor and could never have existed 1040 01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:31,439 Speaker 7: if labor had not existed. First, labor is superior of 1041 01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:34,320 Speaker 7: capital and deserves much the higher consideration. 1042 01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:37,559 Speaker 8: Now, this is. 1043 01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:40,720 Speaker 7: Obviously not something you'd ever hear from a president of 1044 01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,679 Speaker 7: the United States today, and we'll come back to Graver's 1045 01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:46,720 Speaker 7: argument about why that is later. But I want to 1046 01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:50,200 Speaker 7: get a bit deeper into not just the common conception 1047 01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:53,080 Speaker 7: of the labor theory of value, but what the sort 1048 01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:57,840 Speaker 7: of capital w capital m worker's movement believed in. And this, 1049 01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:02,360 Speaker 7: as it turns out, has a tenuous relation to Marx, 1050 01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:05,600 Speaker 7: but is not the same thing, and I think is 1051 01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:08,559 Speaker 7: different enough that I'm actually not going to spend another 1052 01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:11,240 Speaker 7: like fifteen minutes trying to explain Marx's version of the 1053 01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:14,280 Speaker 7: labor theory of value or Marx's law of value, because 1054 01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:17,640 Speaker 7: it doesn't ultimately matter that much, which is which is 1055 01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:22,000 Speaker 7: a very weird thing to say about the actual sort 1056 01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,680 Speaker 7: of you know about about about sort of Marx's role 1057 01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:30,000 Speaker 7: in labor movement, but it kind of doesn't. So what 1058 01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:33,759 Speaker 7: I'm going to do instead is read, well, I should 1059 01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:35,680 Speaker 7: I should, Okay, I should also mention like we are 1060 01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,559 Speaker 7: going to get a bit more into like the things 1061 01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:40,840 Speaker 7: that Marx actually wrote and why they mattered to the 1062 01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:42,679 Speaker 7: specific movement, like next episode. 1063 01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:44,439 Speaker 8: But you know, we'll do, we'll do. 1064 01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:47,599 Speaker 7: We'll deal with that tomorrow. And in the meantime, I'm 1065 01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:49,679 Speaker 7: going to read a bit from the journal end notes 1066 01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:54,880 Speaker 7: from a Unity and Separation supporting workers claims to respectability 1067 01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:58,720 Speaker 7: was a vision of their destiny with five tenants. One, 1068 01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:02,040 Speaker 7: workers were built a new world with their own hands. 1069 01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:02,720 Speaker 8: Two. 1070 01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,840 Speaker 7: In this new world, workers were the only social group 1071 01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:09,719 Speaker 7: that was expanding, whereas all other groups were contracting, including 1072 01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:13,960 Speaker 7: the bourgeoisie. Three, Workers were not only becoming the majority 1073 01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:18,000 Speaker 7: of the population, they were also becoming a compact mass, 1074 01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:21,439 Speaker 7: the collective worker who was being drilled in the factory 1075 01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:23,439 Speaker 7: to act in concert with the machines. 1076 01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:24,439 Speaker 8: Four. 1077 01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:27,479 Speaker 7: They were thus the only group capable of managing the 1078 01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:31,120 Speaker 7: new world in accordance with this innermost logic, neither a 1079 01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:35,440 Speaker 7: hierarchy of order givers and order takers, nor the irrationality 1080 01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:39,439 Speaker 7: of market fluctuations, but rather in every more finely grained 1081 01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:40,320 Speaker 7: division of labor. 1082 01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:41,040 Speaker 8: Five. 1083 01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:45,000 Speaker 7: Workers were proving this vision to be true, since the 1084 01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:48,519 Speaker 7: class was realizing what it was in a conquest of power, 1085 01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:51,360 Speaker 7: the achievement of which would make it possible to abolish 1086 01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:55,479 Speaker 7: class society and thus bring Man's prehistory to a close. 1087 01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:59,679 Speaker 7: This is the basis of the formation of the identity 1088 01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:03,280 Speaker 7: of the working class. It's how people understand themselves as workers, 1089 01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:05,120 Speaker 7: you know, and so in Marxist terms, this is the 1090 01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:08,560 Speaker 7: class in itself becoming the class for itself, you know. 1091 01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:12,480 Speaker 7: This is this is this is this is the identity 1092 01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,960 Speaker 7: that produces the workers movement. It's the expression of what 1093 01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:21,400 Speaker 7: people believe about themselves. Now, there are ingrained ideological assumptions 1094 01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:24,559 Speaker 7: here that go sort of beyond peer arguments about class. 1095 01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:25,200 Speaker 8: Right. 1096 01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:28,200 Speaker 7: This is an argument about a very specific kind of 1097 01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:31,280 Speaker 7: factory worker. And in some sense I think the focus 1098 01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,440 Speaker 7: on the factory worker as like the sort of emblematic 1099 01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:36,880 Speaker 7: like bearer of this And this is true both of 1100 01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:39,280 Speaker 7: the theorist of the time and from people like end 1101 01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:41,040 Speaker 7: Notes who are looking back on it from like one 1102 01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:43,439 Speaker 7: hundred years later. I think this is kind of a 1103 01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:47,040 Speaker 7: distraction from what a lot of the actual base of 1104 01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:49,439 Speaker 7: the workers movement is, which is to say, like coal 1105 01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:52,960 Speaker 7: miners and workers involved with energy logistics. You know, you 1106 01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:55,280 Speaker 7: could take for example, like the beating heart of the 1107 01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:57,599 Speaker 7: anarchist movement in much of the twenties and thirties are 1108 01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:02,000 Speaker 7: these Andalusian coal mine whose militancy and ability to sort 1109 01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,759 Speaker 7: of control the supply of coal that you know, capital 1110 01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:08,799 Speaker 7: the capitalists class relied on for production gave them enormous 1111 01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:12,639 Speaker 7: leverage and as the sort of as a historian Timothy 1112 01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:15,160 Speaker 7: Mitchell has argued, it was, it was this sort of 1113 01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:18,360 Speaker 7: capacity to you know, break the economy through shutting off 1114 01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:23,200 Speaker 7: the coal supply, through strikes and sabotage, which workers you know, 1115 01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:26,360 Speaker 7: were workers at the time, like think of like the 1116 01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:29,720 Speaker 7: strike as a kind of sabotage and it's but it's 1117 01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,240 Speaker 7: this capability that informs a lot of the sort of 1118 01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:35,639 Speaker 7: politics intensive possibility of the twentieth century work as movements 1119 01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:39,880 Speaker 7: and you know, given what, but you know, like given 1120 01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:43,280 Speaker 7: what what the people who are like you know, working 1121 01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:46,840 Speaker 7: in a coal mine or like you know, are are 1122 01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:50,280 Speaker 7: like a doc worker or you know, it's like if 1123 01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,080 Speaker 7: you are working in a factory, right, it makes sense 1124 01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:57,920 Speaker 7: that these people believe this right, you know, in terms 1125 01:16:58,000 --> 01:16:59,519 Speaker 7: in terms of you know, if if if you're looking 1126 01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:04,840 Speaker 7: at some thing like you know, workers are building the 1127 01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:07,160 Speaker 7: new world with their hands, right, or like we're you know, 1128 01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:10,800 Speaker 7: we're the only social group that's expanding. We're the only 1129 01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:13,559 Speaker 7: people who are like capable of like managing the new 1130 01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:16,840 Speaker 7: world according to its own logic. This makes a lot 1131 01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:19,639 Speaker 7: of sense if you are one of the people who 1132 01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:24,560 Speaker 7: live in a world that has effectively disappeared. Now, you know, 1133 01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:27,839 Speaker 7: and that and that is a world where you literally 1134 01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,560 Speaker 7: are watching cities be constructed out of like you know, 1135 01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:32,040 Speaker 7: the tiny shells of villages. 1136 01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:32,280 Speaker 8: Right. 1137 01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:34,599 Speaker 7: The only way you can sort of experience that now 1138 01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:36,720 Speaker 7: is if you were one of the people in sort 1139 01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:38,640 Speaker 7: of the late the nineties and the two thousands in 1140 01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:40,800 Speaker 7: China who you know, like watch shen z En turn 1141 01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:42,719 Speaker 7: from a fishing village into one of the largest cities 1142 01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:46,000 Speaker 7: in the world. But that's not really a thing anymore. 1143 01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:49,200 Speaker 7: But on the other hand, like, this is what these 1144 01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:52,200 Speaker 7: people are experiencing, and this is a group of people 1145 01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:55,200 Speaker 7: who can literally feel in their hands the sort of 1146 01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:57,360 Speaker 7: the power and the value of the labor in what 1147 01:17:57,479 --> 01:18:01,480 Speaker 7: they're producing. They can, you know, they can see commodities 1148 01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:03,560 Speaker 7: appear in the world, and they can know that it 1149 01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:05,840 Speaker 7: was you by their hands that the world was built. 1150 01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:08,439 Speaker 7: And this is not you know, this is not purely 1151 01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:12,839 Speaker 7: a metaphor, right, These are people who are literally creating 1152 01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,400 Speaker 7: the world around them. To quote one of the verses 1153 01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:21,280 Speaker 7: of Solidarity Forever that modern trade unions hilariously notably do 1154 01:18:21,479 --> 01:18:24,760 Speaker 7: not include in the version of In the version of 1155 01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:26,479 Speaker 7: the song that they tend to sing at things, the 1156 01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,280 Speaker 7: trade union version drops a bunch of verses, and one 1157 01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:33,120 Speaker 7: of those verses is in our hands is placed to 1158 01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,880 Speaker 7: power greater than their hoarded gold, greater than the might 1159 01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:39,320 Speaker 7: of armies multiplied a thousandfold, We can bring to birth 1160 01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:41,200 Speaker 7: a new world from the ashes of the old. 1161 01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:42,759 Speaker 5: For the union makes us strong. 1162 01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:47,719 Speaker 7: And this is both the positive vision of the workers 1163 01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:51,759 Speaker 7: movement and its own sort of theoretical self conception wrapped 1164 01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,719 Speaker 7: into one. It is the sort of rosy romantic picture 1165 01:18:54,920 --> 01:19:00,680 Speaker 7: of what the worker's movement is. However, Comma, this is 1166 01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:04,720 Speaker 7: the incredibly romantic version of this. And before we sort 1167 01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:07,920 Speaker 7: of leave the world of pure romance and go into 1168 01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:11,639 Speaker 7: these sort of dirty and grimy worlds of reality where 1169 01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:13,880 Speaker 7: everything kind of sucks and things are not what they 1170 01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:18,720 Speaker 7: normally seem, we are going to take an ad break 1171 01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:22,479 Speaker 7: and we're back now. 1172 01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:24,080 Speaker 8: There are a lot of. 1173 01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:27,280 Speaker 7: Things about this work as movement that if you just 1174 01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:29,960 Speaker 7: sort of look at it theoretically, or if you know, 1175 01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:32,200 Speaker 7: you're looking at these one of the sort of like 1176 01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:37,559 Speaker 7: incredibly sort of rosy self caricatures. I guess if you're 1177 01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:42,000 Speaker 7: purely looking at the kind of propaganda that the movement 1178 01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:46,560 Speaker 7: produces in order to create itself, you are going to 1179 01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:50,600 Speaker 7: get a very distorted picture of sort of what was 1180 01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:54,920 Speaker 7: actually going on on the ground. And this also makes 1181 01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:59,680 Speaker 7: it very very difficult to understand what happened, because, you know, 1182 01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:02,680 Speaker 7: if if you want to understand how this movement was 1183 01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:05,960 Speaker 7: defeated and how the like all of the sort of 1184 01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:09,440 Speaker 7: branches of the Worker's movements, like all of his different ideologies, 1185 01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:13,160 Speaker 7: all of those different manifestations are essentially destroyed, you have 1186 01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:17,439 Speaker 7: to get to the point where you are you start 1187 01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:20,640 Speaker 7: to realize that the ideological conception of productivity right of 1188 01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:24,040 Speaker 7: the producer of you know, like of of what the 1189 01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:27,600 Speaker 7: worker is was never as sort of dry and objective 1190 01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:29,720 Speaker 7: as theorists wanted us. And you know, you got the 1191 01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:34,200 Speaker 7: sense that they wanted like themselves to believe. Case in 1192 01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:36,840 Speaker 7: point is the nature of what Marx calls the lump 1193 01:20:36,920 --> 01:20:41,559 Speaker 7: and proletariat. So here's from endnotes again, who were these 1194 01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:46,000 Speaker 7: lump and proletarians preaching anarchy? Attempts to spell that out 1195 01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:50,200 Speaker 7: usually took the form not of structural analysis, but rather 1196 01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:54,280 Speaker 7: of long lists of shady characters, lists which collapsed in 1197 01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:59,000 Speaker 7: on themselves in a frenzied incoherence. Here is Marx's paradigmatic 1198 01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:02,120 Speaker 7: discussion of the lump proletariat from the eighteenth through mayor 1199 01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:06,759 Speaker 7: of Louis Bonaparte, on the pretext A founding a benevolent society, 1200 01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:10,720 Speaker 7: the lump and proletariat of Paris had been organized into 1201 01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:16,799 Speaker 7: secret sections, each section led by Bonapartist agents. These lumpen 1202 01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:22,000 Speaker 7: supposedly consisted of quote, vagabonds, discharged soldiers and jail birds, 1203 01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:30,799 Speaker 7: escaped galley slaves, swindlers, mounton bunks, lazaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, pimps, 1204 01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:38,639 Speaker 7: brothel keepers, porters, litter, roddy, organ grinders, ragpickers, knife grinders, tinkers, beggars. 1205 01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:43,160 Speaker 7: In short, the whole indefinite, disintegrating mass thrown hither and 1206 01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:47,880 Speaker 7: thither from which the French call labohem. Is there any 1207 01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:51,719 Speaker 7: truth in this paranoid fantasy? Do escaped convicts and organ 1208 01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:56,120 Speaker 7: grinders share a common counter revolutionary interest with beggars, which 1209 01:21:56,200 --> 01:22:00,320 Speaker 7: distinguishes them from the common mass worker, who are currently 1210 01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:05,519 Speaker 7: revolutionary by nature. To think so is insane. The lumpen 1211 01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:09,280 Speaker 7: proletariat was a specter haunting the worker's movements. If that 1212 01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:13,360 Speaker 7: movement constituted itself for the dignity of workers, then the 1213 01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:17,160 Speaker 7: lumpen was the figure of the undignified worker, or miraculately, 1214 01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:20,200 Speaker 7: the lumpen was one of its figurations. All of the 1215 01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:23,200 Speaker 7: movement's efforts to give dignity of the class were supposedly 1216 01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:26,839 Speaker 7: undermined by these dissolute figures drunk singing in the streets, 1217 01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:31,400 Speaker 7: petty criminals, and prostitutes. References to a lumpen proletariat registered 1218 01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:34,200 Speaker 7: what was a simple truth. It was difficult to convince 1219 01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:37,000 Speaker 7: workers to organize as workers, since mostly they didn't care 1220 01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:40,519 Speaker 7: about socialism. A great many of the poor, especially the 1221 01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:43,840 Speaker 7: very poor, did not think or behave themselves as proletarians, 1222 01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:46,760 Speaker 7: or find the organizations and modes of actions of the 1223 01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:50,400 Speaker 7: movement as applicable or relevant to them. In their fear time, 1224 01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:52,880 Speaker 7: they'd rather go to the pub than sing workers' songs. 1225 01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:56,000 Speaker 7: In the figure of the lumpen. We discover the dark 1226 01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:59,120 Speaker 7: underside of the affirmation of the working class. It was 1227 01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:03,080 Speaker 7: a biting class hatred. Workers saw themselves as originating out 1228 01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:06,880 Speaker 7: of a stinking morass from Kotsky is the class struggle quote. 1229 01:23:07,360 --> 01:23:09,519 Speaker 7: At the time of the beginning of modern industry, the 1230 01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:14,040 Speaker 7: term proletariat implied absolute degeneracy, and there are persons who 1231 01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:18,040 Speaker 7: believe this is still the case. Moreover, capitalism was trying 1232 01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:20,880 Speaker 7: to push them back into the muck. Thus, the crisis 1233 01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:23,360 Speaker 7: tendencies of capitalism could only be resolved in one of 1234 01:23:23,439 --> 01:23:26,200 Speaker 7: two ways, the victory of the working class or in 1235 01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:29,439 Speaker 7: its becoming lumpen'. Now you can see a couple of 1236 01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:32,160 Speaker 7: things very clearly here. One is there's been a lot 1237 01:23:32,200 --> 01:23:34,800 Speaker 7: of attempts to like resuscitate the lump and proletariat as 1238 01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:39,360 Speaker 7: like a functional class, especially see this especially in the seventies. 1239 01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:43,600 Speaker 7: And I really, I really would recommend those people go 1240 01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:46,400 Speaker 7: back and read what Mark's actually wrote about the lumpen proletariat, 1241 01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:51,880 Speaker 7: because it makes no sense. It is just like absolute 1242 01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:55,240 Speaker 7: sort of blithering nonsense. And the reason it's this kind 1243 01:23:55,280 --> 01:24:00,840 Speaker 7: of like incredibly bizarre, like paranoid, you know, to fantasies 1244 01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:04,040 Speaker 7: is that beneath the sort of like foe of scientific 1245 01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:08,960 Speaker 7: objectiveness of the workers' movement is this incredibly petty moralism 1246 01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:11,400 Speaker 7: and a set of sort of Victorian social values with 1247 01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:15,160 Speaker 7: all of the sort of cruelty of their aristocratic masters. 1248 01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:17,920 Speaker 7: And I want to sort of point out here like 1249 01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:23,560 Speaker 7: this kind of thinking, you know, this kind of like 1250 01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:26,200 Speaker 7: we are the movement that is a liberation of the class. 1251 01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:27,960 Speaker 7: But in order to do that, we need to prove 1252 01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:31,360 Speaker 7: that like we are like actually sort of like real 1253 01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:34,160 Speaker 7: dignified human beings, and that there's another group of people 1254 01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:36,800 Speaker 7: who are just us, but we hate them because they 1255 01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:38,600 Speaker 7: don't behave the way that we think they're supposed to. 1256 01:24:39,400 --> 01:24:41,840 Speaker 7: This is a very very common thing that you see 1257 01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:45,720 Speaker 7: in basically all social movements, especially in their earliest and 1258 01:24:45,880 --> 01:24:49,200 Speaker 7: like shittiest iterations. You see this in the early feminist movement. 1259 01:24:49,200 --> 01:24:51,360 Speaker 7: I mean, you see this still in the feminist movement, 1260 01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:54,280 Speaker 7: but there are sections of it that do this too. 1261 01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:55,880 Speaker 8: There's a really good. 1262 01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:58,360 Speaker 7: Piece called some Like It Hot by Sophie Lewis about 1263 01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:01,400 Speaker 7: the sort of feminist reaction to Mertory Marilyn Monroe, and 1264 01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:04,120 Speaker 7: I'm gonna read a little bit from it. One of 1265 01:25:04,200 --> 01:25:06,080 Speaker 7: the things that you get this sense of is that 1266 01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:11,840 Speaker 7: people like Glorious Steinem just absolutely hate Marilyn Monroe, and 1267 01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:14,560 Speaker 7: the you know, the stuff they write about her is 1268 01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:20,600 Speaker 7: stuff that like you just will be like almost incomprehensible 1269 01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,040 Speaker 7: to imagine any of these people or even just sort 1270 01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:26,240 Speaker 7: of like you know, not even like like a modern 1271 01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:30,640 Speaker 7: sort of like conservative like writing on purpose about a 1272 01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:32,640 Speaker 7: woman and being allowed to sort of get away with it. 1273 01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:36,280 Speaker 7: I mean there right, just horrible things about her. I'm 1274 01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:39,080 Speaker 7: gonna read a little bit from the piece. Perhaps it 1275 01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:41,840 Speaker 7: was Monroe's dumping of three husbands, two of them were 1276 01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:45,120 Speaker 7: famous and powerful, that posed quote no adult challenge to 1277 01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:49,439 Speaker 7: Steinem's mind. Or perhaps Steinem's comments closed nothing so much 1278 01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:53,439 Speaker 7: as her own inability to see Highem people as subjects. Here, 1279 01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:57,960 Speaker 7: in case it might pierce a vail, is Monroe apagem 1280 01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:01,400 Speaker 7: written on Waldorf a story a letter paper in nineteen 1281 01:26:01,439 --> 01:26:04,440 Speaker 7: fifty five, quote everyone has violence in themselves. 1282 01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:05,360 Speaker 8: I am violent. 1283 01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:09,400 Speaker 7: Here is another spoken to photographer Bruno Bernard in nineteen 1284 01:26:09,439 --> 01:26:13,160 Speaker 7: fifty six. Both the anti communists on the House Committee 1285 01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:15,560 Speaker 7: on Un American Activities and the movie sensors on the 1286 01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:19,920 Speaker 7: production board should be buried alive. Perhaps Steinem, who proudly 1287 01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:22,280 Speaker 7: worked for the CIA in the fifties and sixties, would 1288 01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:25,920 Speaker 7: not appreciate this kind of courage, the courage of one Norma, who, 1289 01:26:26,160 --> 01:26:29,800 Speaker 7: when notified by the police at Los Angeles roadblock in 1290 01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:32,519 Speaker 7: nineteen forty nine that a nearby house was being monitored 1291 01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:35,680 Speaker 7: for ties to communists, shouted the officer's ear off and 1292 01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:39,680 Speaker 7: went straight to tip off blacklisted screenwriters Norma and Ben Bauersman. 1293 01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:42,599 Speaker 7: And so, you know, you can sort of see what's 1294 01:26:42,760 --> 01:26:46,160 Speaker 7: happening here, right, It's a very similar thing where there 1295 01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:47,880 Speaker 7: were these sort of like you know, you have these 1296 01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:52,639 Speaker 7: very sort of like like respectable mainstream feminists who look 1297 01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:57,000 Speaker 7: at someone like Marilyn Monroe, who you know, and they 1298 01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:00,519 Speaker 7: just fucking hate her. They absolutely despise her because she 1299 01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:04,120 Speaker 7: is sort of she she is the image of what 1300 01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:07,120 Speaker 7: they sort of think that they're fighting against, right, Like 1301 01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:10,760 Speaker 7: they're they're they're, they're, they're what what liberation looks like 1302 01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:13,639 Speaker 7: for them is to like not be this kind of woman. 1303 01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:15,880 Speaker 7: And that's, you know, and this is that's the sort 1304 01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:20,200 Speaker 7: of unspoken or so sometimes just overly spoken, core of 1305 01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:21,800 Speaker 7: what a lot of this stuff is. And you know, 1306 01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:24,360 Speaker 7: and This is how these people like can justify like 1307 01:27:24,479 --> 01:27:28,200 Speaker 7: working for the fucking CIA, right and you know, somehow 1308 01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:30,920 Speaker 7: claiming to themselves to be like superior feminists, feminist to 1309 01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:34,679 Speaker 7: Marilyn Monroe, who you know, at like great personal costs 1310 01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:37,679 Speaker 7: and at great danger, like you know, fought hu wac 1311 01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:41,200 Speaker 7: and shit. So you know, this kind of like we 1312 01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:43,400 Speaker 7: are the group who is going to free our own group. 1313 01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:46,479 Speaker 7: We're also not like because we're not like those other 1314 01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:48,439 Speaker 7: people who are literally the same as us, but we 1315 01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:50,760 Speaker 7: don't like them because they we don't think they're respectable enough. 1316 01:27:51,080 --> 01:27:53,640 Speaker 7: This is a very very old sort of trend, but 1317 01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:56,519 Speaker 7: it has real social consequences and it's you know, it's 1318 01:27:56,560 --> 01:28:00,479 Speaker 7: it's a really disastrous strategy because it means that all 1319 01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:03,280 Speaker 7: of these movements have these sort of flanks from which 1320 01:28:03,320 --> 01:28:07,000 Speaker 7: they can be attacked. One of these flanks for the 1321 01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:11,320 Speaker 7: workers movements, and one that's become increasingly important now, is 1322 01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:14,080 Speaker 7: the kind of producer's conception of what a worker is. 1323 01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:15,880 Speaker 7: You know, this is the man sort of creating the 1324 01:28:15,920 --> 01:28:19,680 Speaker 7: new world with his bare hands. The problem is that, 1325 01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:24,240 Speaker 7: you know, this is never what most labor actually was. 1326 01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:28,560 Speaker 7: Here's David Graber again. In fact, there was never a 1327 01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:31,360 Speaker 7: time when most workers worked in a factory. Even in 1328 01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:34,240 Speaker 7: the days of Karl Marx or Charles Dickens, working class 1329 01:28:34,280 --> 01:28:38,679 Speaker 7: neighborhoods housed far more maids, boot blacks, dustman cooks, nurses, 1330 01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:44,280 Speaker 7: cabby's school teachers, prostitutes, caretakers, and costermongers than employees and 1331 01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:48,360 Speaker 7: coal mines, textile mills or iron foundries. Are these former 1332 01:28:48,479 --> 01:28:50,439 Speaker 7: jobs productive in what sense? 1333 01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:51,000 Speaker 8: And for whom? 1334 01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:55,440 Speaker 7: Who produces us who flay? Is because of these ambiguities, 1335 01:28:55,479 --> 01:28:58,240 Speaker 7: As such, issues are typically brushed aside when people are 1336 01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:01,680 Speaker 7: arguing about value, but doing so blinds us to the 1337 01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:04,880 Speaker 7: reality that most working class labor, whether you're carried out 1338 01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:08,839 Speaker 7: by men or women, actually resembles what we are typically 1339 01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:12,479 Speaker 7: think of as women's work. Looking after people, seeing to 1340 01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:16,639 Speaker 7: their wants and needs, explaining, reassuring, anticipating what the boss 1341 01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:20,480 Speaker 7: wants or is thinking, not to mention, caring for, monitoring 1342 01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:24,280 Speaker 7: and maintaining plants, animals, machines and other objects. Then it 1343 01:29:24,400 --> 01:29:28,880 Speaker 7: involves hammering, carving, hoisting, or harvesting things. And you know, 1344 01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:32,720 Speaker 7: you can see in this sort of issue, right, you 1345 01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:35,600 Speaker 7: can see the axis upon which the workers movement is 1346 01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:38,479 Speaker 7: going to be split in the eighties and nineties. If 1347 01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:40,519 Speaker 7: you can convince a set of workers that what they're 1348 01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:44,479 Speaker 7: doing is you know, masculine productive labor, right, and that 1349 01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:46,479 Speaker 7: you know what those other people are doing, is this 1350 01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:50,160 Speaker 7: like feminine care labor that doesn't produce anything. You can 1351 01:29:50,479 --> 01:29:53,599 Speaker 7: turn the entire ideology of the workers movement on its 1352 01:29:53,680 --> 01:29:57,160 Speaker 7: head and transform it from a liberatory ideology about the 1353 01:29:57,280 --> 01:29:59,880 Speaker 7: end of the class system to a patriarchal ideology about 1354 01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:03,600 Speaker 7: the necessity of labor to sort of manhood of masculinity. 1355 01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:07,400 Speaker 7: And once that ideological shift is made, you can start 1356 01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:11,160 Speaker 7: writing off entire fields of laborers as being insufficiently quote 1357 01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:14,719 Speaker 7: unquote productive, or you know, as the right wing shift 1358 01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:19,320 Speaker 7: renders it, you can say productive and mean insufficiently masculine 1359 01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:23,879 Speaker 7: account as part of the working class TM. This problem, 1360 01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:27,480 Speaker 7: Graper argues, is a consequence of the sort of maniacal 1361 01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:31,000 Speaker 7: focus on production that defined the workers movement, because it 1362 01:30:31,080 --> 01:30:33,960 Speaker 7: obscures the fact that, again, most of actual labor is 1363 01:30:34,040 --> 01:30:37,519 Speaker 7: care labor. And this is something we've discussed at length 1364 01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:41,000 Speaker 7: on this show in sort of ethnographic if not theoretical terms, 1365 01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:45,200 Speaker 7: while talking to Starbucks workers, and in these conversations it 1366 01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:47,720 Speaker 7: becomes almost immediately clear that a huge part of the 1367 01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:51,400 Speaker 7: job has very little to do with making coffee or 1368 01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:55,200 Speaker 7: even sort of classical customer management, and like the interpretive 1369 01:30:55,240 --> 01:30:58,320 Speaker 7: and emotional labor of doing service work, what these workers 1370 01:30:58,360 --> 01:31:01,320 Speaker 7: are actually doing is acting as replacement for the collapsing 1371 01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:04,519 Speaker 7: American social safety net. Right they are taking care of 1372 01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:07,800 Speaker 7: and literally saving the lives of people who capitalism has 1373 01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:08,439 Speaker 7: spat out and. 1374 01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:09,040 Speaker 5: Left to die. 1375 01:31:10,000 --> 01:31:14,800 Speaker 7: And this is by by any like any actual you know, 1376 01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:16,800 Speaker 7: I'm not gonna say objective standard, because don't like there 1377 01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:19,439 Speaker 7: is an objective standard for what we're like how much 1378 01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:21,920 Speaker 7: work something is. But you know, in terms of the 1379 01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:24,160 Speaker 7: amount of labor, in terms of the difficulty of labor, 1380 01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:27,200 Speaker 7: in terms of like what he is being expected of 1381 01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:32,920 Speaker 7: expected of these workers, this is incredibly intense difficult labor. 1382 01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:37,560 Speaker 7: But you know, because of the sort of patriarchal like 1383 01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:42,880 Speaker 7: idea and conception that has sort of consumed what are 1384 01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:46,439 Speaker 7: our sort of collective conception of what a quote unquote 1385 01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:49,280 Speaker 7: real job is, the enormous amount of care labor that 1386 01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:51,519 Speaker 7: perics do every day. And you know, there's there's a 1387 01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:53,960 Speaker 7: good argument. Graber makes a very similar argument to this 1388 01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:56,800 Speaker 7: that you can look at the entire job. And you 1389 01:31:56,840 --> 01:32:00,439 Speaker 7: can look at like most economic production as carelabor, right, 1390 01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:03,160 Speaker 7: because you're producing this coffee in order to care for someone. 1391 01:32:03,240 --> 01:32:06,360 Speaker 7: You make a bridge in order to like, like in 1392 01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:07,680 Speaker 7: order so that people can use it. 1393 01:32:07,800 --> 01:32:07,960 Speaker 8: Right. 1394 01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:12,519 Speaker 7: But you know, there's a good argument that like all 1395 01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:17,720 Speaker 7: everything in Barista does is care labor. But because you know, 1396 01:32:17,960 --> 01:32:20,400 Speaker 7: it's not like making cars or being one of the 1397 01:32:20,479 --> 01:32:23,120 Speaker 7: last fifty thousand coal miners left in the US, it's 1398 01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:28,680 Speaker 7: not considered real labor. And this, all of this is 1399 01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:32,160 Speaker 7: just a bomb that is left sitting under the ideological 1400 01:32:32,280 --> 01:32:37,360 Speaker 7: core of the workers' movements. And that bomb probably would 1401 01:32:37,479 --> 01:32:38,479 Speaker 7: have just gone. 1402 01:32:38,280 --> 01:32:39,160 Speaker 8: Off on its own. 1403 01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:41,679 Speaker 7: You know why I say on its own. That bomb 1404 01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:45,599 Speaker 7: probably would have been set off by something we're going 1405 01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:48,040 Speaker 7: to talk about or tomorrow, which is the shift in 1406 01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:50,280 Speaker 7: the labor's force in a lot of countries that sort 1407 01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:53,400 Speaker 7: of de industrialize towards this kind of labor being the 1408 01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:57,040 Speaker 7: sort of standard like you knowing being just even more 1409 01:32:57,120 --> 01:33:01,760 Speaker 7: obviously the standard form of labor. But the ruling class 1410 01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:04,320 Speaker 7: figured out a way to sort of set this bomb 1411 01:33:04,439 --> 01:33:08,760 Speaker 7: off and ensure that, you know, and ensure that it 1412 01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:12,000 Speaker 7: would like just detonate the workers movement immediately, and the 1413 01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:14,360 Speaker 7: thing that they figured out to set this bomb off 1414 01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:17,639 Speaker 7: is racism. And that is what I'm going to talk 1415 01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:21,160 Speaker 7: about tomorrow, the story of how the fusion of racism 1416 01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:25,040 Speaker 7: and sexism that I may well be remembered by historians 1417 01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:27,960 Speaker 7: is the force that burned the entire world, consumed what 1418 01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:30,719 Speaker 7: was left of the workers' movement, and turned this country 1419 01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:32,080 Speaker 7: into neoliberal Reagan. 1420 01:33:32,160 --> 01:33:44,720 Speaker 5: Hell, hi everyone, it's me James, and I'm coming to 1421 01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:49,240 Speaker 5: you today sweaty, smelly and exhausted from my pickup truck 1422 01:33:49,360 --> 01:33:52,680 Speaker 5: out in the desert where I have been spending the 1423 01:33:52,760 --> 01:33:56,720 Speaker 5: weekend trying my best to help, along with lots of 1424 01:33:56,800 --> 01:34:00,439 Speaker 5: other dedicated mutual aid workers, to mitigate the damn done 1425 01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:04,679 Speaker 5: by an entirely preventable humanitarian crisis at the United States 1426 01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:08,000 Speaker 5: Southern border. People are being held in the open desert 1427 01:34:08,200 --> 01:34:11,760 Speaker 5: in Hakomba, where it gets hot in the day gets 1428 01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:14,360 Speaker 5: very cold at night. And there are children, there are 1429 01:34:14,400 --> 01:34:17,639 Speaker 5: old people, there are young people. All the support they're 1430 01:34:17,640 --> 01:34:19,840 Speaker 5: getting it's from mutual aid workers, then maybe get some 1431 01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:23,040 Speaker 5: water from border patrol, from federal government, and not much else. 1432 01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:27,840 Speaker 5: And I'm here before your podcast to ask you if 1433 01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:30,680 Speaker 5: you can to help. We've all spent all of our 1434 01:34:30,760 --> 01:34:33,960 Speaker 5: time and most of our money the last few days 1435 01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:36,880 Speaker 5: week trying to help, and we're all pretty broke, and 1436 01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:39,960 Speaker 5: we're all pretty tired. But I could really do with 1437 01:34:40,040 --> 01:34:42,600 Speaker 5: your support. And I'm going to give the venmos and 1438 01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:45,360 Speaker 5: cash apps and pay pal information for two organizations who 1439 01:34:45,680 --> 01:34:49,680 Speaker 5: ideally love and whose work I have seen is extremely 1440 01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:52,960 Speaker 5: effective and is the only thing keeping this situation from 1441 01:34:53,000 --> 01:34:55,200 Speaker 5: being a lot worse. And please don't think that if 1442 01:34:55,240 --> 01:34:58,400 Speaker 5: you don't have much money that you shouldn't give. We 1443 01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:00,840 Speaker 5: can work out do a lot with a little. So 1444 01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:02,640 Speaker 5: if you only have five bucks, that is great. And 1445 01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:04,800 Speaker 5: five bucks is are top for someone to sleep under 1446 01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:06,840 Speaker 5: or a few hot meals. And what we're gonna buy 1447 01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:11,280 Speaker 5: is food, blankets, tops, water, the things that stop people 1448 01:35:11,360 --> 01:35:15,040 Speaker 5: dying in the desert. Those two organizations, Border Kindness and 1449 01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:18,280 Speaker 5: Free Shit Collective, can be found online at border Kindness 1450 01:35:18,280 --> 01:35:21,599 Speaker 5: and at free ship pb on Twitter. For Border Kindness, 1451 01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:25,120 Speaker 5: the venmo is at border hyphen Kindness, the cash app 1452 01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:28,479 Speaker 5: is dollar sign border Kindness cash and the zell and 1453 01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:32,760 Speaker 5: PayPal information is info at Borderkindness dot org. Free Shit 1454 01:35:32,800 --> 01:35:35,360 Speaker 5: Collective are at free shick Collective on cash app and 1455 01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:37,880 Speaker 5: PayPal and at free shippbe on Twitter. 1456 01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:45,720 Speaker 9: Thank you very much, guys, welcome to take it up 1457 01:35:45,760 --> 01:35:48,719 Speaker 9: and here a podcast, but why everything absolutely sucks? 1458 01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:53,280 Speaker 7: I'm your host, Nia Wong. I'm back again. And last 1459 01:35:53,360 --> 01:35:57,960 Speaker 7: episode we talked about the problems with conceiving of all 1460 01:35:58,040 --> 01:36:01,639 Speaker 7: of labor as production from a sort of macro feminist 1461 01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:05,360 Speaker 7: perspective of you know, thinking about how you know, thinking 1462 01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:08,720 Speaker 7: of all labor as production doesn't actually capture what most 1463 01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:11,240 Speaker 7: labor is. And you know, we looked at how this 1464 01:36:11,360 --> 01:36:14,519 Speaker 7: allowed patriarchy to become a wedge to private workers movement apart. 1465 01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:20,160 Speaker 7: But there's another sort of more micro problem with thinking 1466 01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:24,960 Speaker 7: about productive labor, and that micro problem is that people 1467 01:36:25,120 --> 01:36:31,200 Speaker 7: are just absolutely unable to think about productivity in anything 1468 01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:34,720 Speaker 7: other than moral terms. As to you know, why this 1469 01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:36,639 Speaker 7: is the case, I'm not going to go forward an answer. 1470 01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:41,120 Speaker 7: I've seen every theory from like its Christianity, to like 1471 01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:43,960 Speaker 7: it's a structural feature of capitalism, to its human nature 1472 01:36:44,040 --> 01:36:48,160 Speaker 7: or whatever. I'm I don't know, did pick pick your 1473 01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:51,640 Speaker 7: theory about why everyone is incapable of being normal about productivity? 1474 01:36:52,080 --> 01:36:55,519 Speaker 7: But this turns out to be a real problem for 1475 01:36:55,640 --> 01:36:59,880 Speaker 7: anyone who is trying to use productive versus unproductive labor 1476 01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:04,000 Speaker 7: in a purely technical sense. Now, the most famous person 1477 01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:07,599 Speaker 7: to do this is, as some of you probably know, one, 1478 01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:12,080 Speaker 7: Karl Marx. And you know I was hard on Mark's 1479 01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:16,599 Speaker 7: last episode, but this one and the stuff that's going 1480 01:37:16,680 --> 01:37:21,120 Speaker 7: to follow isn't really his fault. Marx here is actually 1481 01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:24,120 Speaker 7: doing one of the times where he's being very reasonable 1482 01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:26,720 Speaker 7: and he's being very specific about what productive labor is, 1483 01:37:27,360 --> 01:37:32,360 Speaker 7: and everyone else is being extremely unreasonable. And you know, 1484 01:37:33,000 --> 01:37:35,920 Speaker 7: given the incredibly dark places this is going to go, 1485 01:37:37,439 --> 01:37:39,600 Speaker 7: maybe this is one of those things where, like, I 1486 01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:42,920 Speaker 7: don't know, you need to pick different words that aren't 1487 01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:46,599 Speaker 7: as emotionally charged as like productive nonproductive labor. But all 1488 01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:50,880 Speaker 7: in all, like this, the catastrophe that's about two unfold 1489 01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:55,080 Speaker 7: is not Marx's fault. There was really no way that 1490 01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:57,800 Speaker 7: he could have known how nuts everyone was going to 1491 01:37:57,880 --> 01:38:01,880 Speaker 7: go over this. So what actually is the distinction between 1492 01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:05,760 Speaker 7: productive and unproductive labor? From Marx? So, first off, and 1493 01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:10,760 Speaker 7: this is very important, productive versus unproductive labor is a 1494 01:38:10,880 --> 01:38:14,519 Speaker 7: technical term. It has no moral content at all. All 1495 01:38:14,600 --> 01:38:18,439 Speaker 7: it means is that some labor produces capital for the 1496 01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:22,240 Speaker 7: capital owning class and some labor doesn't that. That's literally it. 1497 01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:27,120 Speaker 7: Here's Marx. The commodities the capitalist buys for his own 1498 01:38:27,200 --> 01:38:31,280 Speaker 7: private consumption are not consumed productively. They do not become 1499 01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:35,560 Speaker 7: factors of capital, just as little to the services he 1500 01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:39,679 Speaker 7: buys for his consumption voluntarily or through compulsion from the state, etc. 1501 01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:42,960 Speaker 7: For the sake of their use value, they do not 1502 01:38:43,080 --> 01:38:46,839 Speaker 7: become a factor of capital. They are not therefore productive 1503 01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:49,040 Speaker 7: kinds of labor, and those who perform them are not 1504 01:38:49,160 --> 01:38:54,080 Speaker 7: productive workers. As you can see, this has literally nothing 1505 01:38:54,160 --> 01:38:56,800 Speaker 7: to do with the contents of the labor itself or 1506 01:38:56,960 --> 01:39:01,200 Speaker 7: morality whatsoever. If a dance er work for production company 1507 01:39:01,240 --> 01:39:04,400 Speaker 7: and gives a performance you know, working for the company, 1508 01:39:04,520 --> 01:39:07,360 Speaker 7: that's productive labor, because the company has turned their capital 1509 01:39:07,520 --> 01:39:10,639 Speaker 7: into more capital by using the dancer to produce a commodity, 1510 01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:13,040 Speaker 7: which is, you know, the performance, and then selling it. Right, 1511 01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:17,479 Speaker 7: If that same dancer puts on the same performance in 1512 01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:20,439 Speaker 7: the same place for a crowd of you know, just 1513 01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:22,960 Speaker 7: like their friends or even the same people, but who 1514 01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:26,320 Speaker 7: aren't paying a production company for it, Suddenly the dancer, 1515 01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:27,960 Speaker 7: who again is doing the same thing in the same 1516 01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:31,479 Speaker 7: place like even could be on the same day, is 1517 01:39:31,560 --> 01:39:34,479 Speaker 7: doing non productive labor because no capital is being created 1518 01:39:34,520 --> 01:39:37,160 Speaker 7: from it, or as you know, here's how Marx puts it. 1519 01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:41,200 Speaker 7: Labor with the same content can therefore be both productive 1520 01:39:41,320 --> 01:39:45,560 Speaker 7: and unproductive. Milton, for example, who did Paradise Loss, was 1521 01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:49,040 Speaker 7: an unproductive worker. In contrast to this, the writer who 1522 01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:51,920 Speaker 7: delivers hack work for his publisher is a productive worker. 1523 01:39:52,960 --> 01:39:55,680 Speaker 7: Later on, Milton sold the product for five dollars and 1524 01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:59,000 Speaker 7: to that extent became a dealer in a commodity But 1525 01:39:59,120 --> 01:40:02,400 Speaker 7: the light sig literally II reary proletarian who produces books 1526 01:40:02,840 --> 01:40:06,640 Speaker 7: e g. Compendium Political Economy at the instruction of his 1527 01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:10,519 Speaker 7: publisher is roughly speaking, a productive worker insofar as his 1528 01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:13,720 Speaker 7: production is subsumed under capital and only takes place for 1529 01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:17,800 Speaker 7: the purpose of the latter's valorization. This is a valorization 1530 01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:21,679 Speaker 7: of capital, which is like having capital make more capital. 1531 01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:25,439 Speaker 7: A singer who sings like a bird is an unproductive worker. 1532 01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:28,600 Speaker 7: If she sells her singing for money, she is to 1533 01:40:28,720 --> 01:40:32,560 Speaker 7: that extent a wage laborer or a commodity dealer. But 1534 01:40:32,720 --> 01:40:35,600 Speaker 7: the same singer when she is engaged by an entrepreneur 1535 01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:38,200 Speaker 7: who has her sing in order to make money, is 1536 01:40:38,240 --> 01:40:43,600 Speaker 7: a productive worker, for she directly produces capital. A schoolmaster 1537 01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:46,320 Speaker 7: who educates others is not a productive worker, but a 1538 01:40:46,320 --> 01:40:49,519 Speaker 7: schoolmaster who is engaged as a wage laborer and an 1539 01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:53,760 Speaker 7: institution alongside along with others in order to make in 1540 01:40:53,920 --> 01:40:56,280 Speaker 7: order through his labor to valorize the money of the 1541 01:40:56,520 --> 01:41:01,280 Speaker 7: entrepreneur of the knowledge mongering institution is a productive worker. Now, okay, 1542 01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:04,080 Speaker 7: I'm reading a lot of Marx here. I'm focusing on Marx, 1543 01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:08,479 Speaker 7: you know, because whether or not someone in you know, 1544 01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:10,880 Speaker 7: the eighteen hundreds is a Marxist or not. And if 1545 01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:13,559 Speaker 7: you picked us like a random worker in the period 1546 01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:16,320 Speaker 7: when this is being written, the odds are really bad 1547 01:41:16,400 --> 01:41:19,920 Speaker 7: that they're going to be a Marxist. Marx was enormously influential, 1548 01:41:20,040 --> 01:41:23,479 Speaker 7: particularly in Europe as sort of social democracy swept through 1549 01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:26,280 Speaker 7: the Germany's and then communism sort of swept back through Europe. 1550 01:41:26,320 --> 01:41:29,160 Speaker 7: In the US, and Marx is also and this is 1551 01:41:29,200 --> 01:41:33,960 Speaker 7: something that Marx himself, like takes great pains to conceal 1552 01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:36,120 Speaker 7: a lot of the time. Marx is a kind of 1553 01:41:36,280 --> 01:41:40,120 Speaker 7: medium through which the broad cultural consensus on labor was 1554 01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:45,040 Speaker 7: transformed into like capital T theory, and in this capital 1555 01:41:45,120 --> 01:41:48,439 Speaker 7: T theory, productive versus unproductive labor is not a moral 1556 01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:50,599 Speaker 7: claim at all. It's a measure of whether any given 1557 01:41:50,680 --> 01:41:54,760 Speaker 7: labor produces capital for the bourgeoisie. Now, part of what 1558 01:41:54,880 --> 01:41:57,519 Speaker 7: Marx is trying to do here is to intervene in 1559 01:41:57,640 --> 01:42:00,880 Speaker 7: existing discourse about productive and unproductive, to turn it into 1560 01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:03,479 Speaker 7: useful theory instead of people just yelling stuff at each 1561 01:42:03,479 --> 01:42:09,479 Speaker 7: other and Mars, I feel you, buddy, oh boy, taking 1562 01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:11,960 Speaker 7: this as a validation of what I'm doing. God, here's 1563 01:42:11,960 --> 01:42:13,640 Speaker 7: an example I'm just going to put in here of 1564 01:42:13,720 --> 01:42:17,519 Speaker 7: Marx being very mad about this. The self employed laborer, 1565 01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:21,040 Speaker 7: for example, is his own wage laborer, and his own 1566 01:42:21,120 --> 01:42:24,719 Speaker 7: means of production confront him in his own mind as capital. 1567 01:42:25,479 --> 01:42:29,320 Speaker 7: As his own capitalist, he employs himself as a wage laborer. 1568 01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:33,160 Speaker 7: Anomalies of this type then offer a favorable field for 1569 01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:38,080 Speaker 7: outpourings of drivel about productive and unproductive labor. So, you know, 1570 01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:43,000 Speaker 7: even in the eighteen hundreds, people are being incredibly normal 1571 01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:46,559 Speaker 7: about this. They're saying things that are great and good, 1572 01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:52,240 Speaker 7: and only only that they're being exceptionally good. Marx isn't 1573 01:42:52,240 --> 01:42:56,280 Speaker 7: slowly being driven mad by reading it all. But you know, 1574 01:42:56,760 --> 01:43:02,000 Speaker 7: when when it's being used as a technic category, the 1575 01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:06,680 Speaker 7: sort of productive versus unproductive distinction. You know, it can 1576 01:43:06,760 --> 01:43:10,519 Speaker 7: tell you a lot of stuff about how a capitalist 1577 01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:15,720 Speaker 7: economy functions, but when it inevitably becomes a moral category, 1578 01:43:15,920 --> 01:43:20,200 Speaker 7: things get very bad, very quickly. And so we're going 1579 01:43:20,240 --> 01:43:23,439 Speaker 7: to go into two times that this has gone very badly, 1580 01:43:24,160 --> 01:43:28,679 Speaker 7: the Nazis and Ronald Reagan. Now, the Nazis and Reagan 1581 01:43:28,840 --> 01:43:31,240 Speaker 7: aren't quite doing the same thing, although there's a lot 1582 01:43:31,280 --> 01:43:33,880 Speaker 7: of similarities, which is, you know, to be expected from 1583 01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:36,240 Speaker 7: a band who went to a Nazi cemetery that included 1584 01:43:36,280 --> 01:43:39,240 Speaker 7: a bunch of SS dudes and then gave a speech 1585 01:43:39,320 --> 01:43:42,240 Speaker 7: defending his actions where he said, and I quote they 1586 01:43:42,360 --> 01:43:45,919 Speaker 7: which is referring to Nazi soldiers, quote they were victims 1587 01:43:46,080 --> 01:43:48,840 Speaker 7: just as surely as the victims and the concentration camps, 1588 01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:50,559 Speaker 7: which I. 1589 01:43:52,200 --> 01:43:54,160 Speaker 8: I, I, what the fuck. 1590 01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:57,479 Speaker 7: What are you supposed to do with that? Like, I 1591 01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:00,519 Speaker 7: just this guy was a president of Uni States. 1592 01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:02,400 Speaker 10: I mean, I like, I don't know it makes sense, 1593 01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:05,760 Speaker 10: but like it never even crossed my mind that it 1594 01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:08,960 Speaker 10: was like it would even be possible to have a 1595 01:44:09,120 --> 01:44:12,360 Speaker 10: take that is, people in the Nazi army are actually 1596 01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:15,840 Speaker 10: just as much victims as the people in the concentration camps. Like, I, 1597 01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:20,200 Speaker 10: I don't know, baffling stuff by Reagan. I mean, I 1598 01:44:20,200 --> 01:44:23,719 Speaker 10: guess not baffling considering how closely his administration is tied 1599 01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:27,040 Speaker 10: to a bunch of sort of Nazis who became like 1600 01:44:27,200 --> 01:44:29,439 Speaker 10: anti communists, while here were always anti comics, but who 1601 01:44:29,439 --> 01:44:32,439 Speaker 10: became part of sort of like institutional anti communism and 1602 01:44:32,600 --> 01:44:33,880 Speaker 10: like the post war era. 1603 01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:38,559 Speaker 7: But god, what a terrible thing. I'm getting my shots 1604 01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:41,360 Speaker 7: in at Reagan now because this is about to get 1605 01:44:42,360 --> 01:44:51,000 Speaker 7: so incredibly bleak. So yay, so okay. So the right 1606 01:44:51,240 --> 01:44:54,719 Speaker 7: is able to sort of, you know, very successful in fact, 1607 01:44:54,920 --> 01:45:00,400 Speaker 7: in transforming this distinction between productive and non productive labor 1608 01:45:01,160 --> 01:45:05,560 Speaker 7: into a moral category, and then they infuse it with 1609 01:45:05,640 --> 01:45:09,560 Speaker 7: anti Semitism, and through this sort of I don't know, 1610 01:45:10,080 --> 01:45:14,559 Speaker 7: the horror of anti Semitism, productive labor is transformed into 1611 01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:18,160 Speaker 7: you know, productive and unproductive members of society. And this 1612 01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:20,519 Speaker 7: is one of the origins of sort of Nazi race 1613 01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:22,960 Speaker 7: science and race craft. You know, they have their attempt 1614 01:45:23,000 --> 01:45:26,640 Speaker 7: to quote unquote purify their race, which relies on a 1615 01:45:26,680 --> 01:45:29,600 Speaker 7: distinction between sort of productive and non productive members of 1616 01:45:29,680 --> 01:45:33,960 Speaker 7: society who'se like quote unquote value and productive capacity, you know, 1617 01:45:34,120 --> 01:45:37,920 Speaker 7: come to be seen as like genetically heritable, which you know, 1618 01:45:38,040 --> 01:45:40,960 Speaker 7: from the Nazi perspective, they are like, oh, this is stuff, 1619 01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:43,200 Speaker 7: this is heritable. We need to do eugenics and mass 1620 01:45:43,240 --> 01:45:47,000 Speaker 7: exterminations of, you know, increasing numbers of disabled, queer communists 1621 01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:50,320 Speaker 7: and especially Jewish and Groma people to ensure that only 1622 01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:53,160 Speaker 7: the quote unquote like productive members society remain and like 1623 01:45:53,240 --> 01:45:57,960 Speaker 7: pass down their traits. And this is fucking horrible. But 1624 01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:03,160 Speaker 7: this is also too simple for an explanation for what 1625 01:46:03,479 --> 01:46:09,000 Speaker 7: actually happens. In order to actually fully grasp the depths 1626 01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:12,600 Speaker 7: of what's happening here and how this stuff functions, we 1627 01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:18,000 Speaker 7: need to go deeper into specifically looking at anti Semitism. 1628 01:46:19,080 --> 01:46:21,760 Speaker 7: And in order to do this, I'm going to turn 1629 01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:24,519 Speaker 7: to the great sort of the great social theorist moist 1630 01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:28,719 Speaker 7: Pristone Dressed in Peace died a few years ago. Apparently 1631 01:46:28,800 --> 01:46:33,439 Speaker 7: a great guy. I don't know, but yeah, postone and 1632 01:46:33,600 --> 01:46:36,960 Speaker 7: his essay Anti Semitism and National Socialism. This is something 1633 01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:39,479 Speaker 7: I recommend people read it in full. It's a bit 1634 01:46:39,560 --> 01:46:43,719 Speaker 7: theoretically intense. It's also like one of the most heartbreaking 1635 01:46:43,800 --> 01:46:46,479 Speaker 7: things I've ever read, but I think it's important to 1636 01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:52,160 Speaker 7: understand what national socialism actually was and what it's sort 1637 01:46:52,160 --> 01:46:58,160 Speaker 7: of ideological basis was because it oh boy, not only 1638 01:46:58,240 --> 01:47:01,760 Speaker 7: has it not gone away, it you know, it's it's 1639 01:47:01,800 --> 01:47:03,880 Speaker 7: it's it's it's doing it's doing, it's doing a lot 1640 01:47:03,920 --> 01:47:08,840 Speaker 7: of the sort of work that we've we've been sort 1641 01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:13,400 Speaker 7: of discussing. Okay, so what what what is what is 1642 01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:18,040 Speaker 7: pistone actually talking about? So postone sees Nazi anti Semitism 1643 01:47:18,160 --> 01:47:20,439 Speaker 7: not just as you know, the sort of socialism of 1644 01:47:20,560 --> 01:47:24,200 Speaker 7: fools where like Jewish people get substituted for capitalists to 1645 01:47:24,280 --> 01:47:26,400 Speaker 7: see the worker and okay, like yeah, it's like it 1646 01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:31,800 Speaker 7: serves as function to some extent. But for postone, like 1647 01:47:32,560 --> 01:47:37,000 Speaker 7: Nazi anti Semitism is its own sort of horrific, incomplete 1648 01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:40,160 Speaker 7: anti capitalist system. It's this sort of ghastly aryan mirror 1649 01:47:40,320 --> 01:47:43,680 Speaker 7: of like Marxism, and you know, okay, So so to 1650 01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:47,680 Speaker 7: to get an understanding of what he means by this, 1651 01:47:48,520 --> 01:47:52,280 Speaker 7: because this is something that is you know, like it's 1652 01:47:52,360 --> 01:47:56,800 Speaker 7: it's it's deeply it's kind of theoretically intense, but it's 1653 01:47:56,880 --> 01:48:00,560 Speaker 7: worth it. So in Marxism, this the central mystery of 1654 01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:03,920 Speaker 7: the commodity is that a commodity is a well i 1655 01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:05,800 Speaker 7: mean central mystery isn't the right word, but this is 1656 01:48:05,920 --> 01:48:07,800 Speaker 7: this is one of the one of the opening things 1657 01:48:07,880 --> 01:48:12,320 Speaker 7: in capital is that you know, this is this is 1658 01:48:12,360 --> 01:48:15,280 Speaker 7: this thing called the commodity fetish. You have a commodity. 1659 01:48:15,360 --> 01:48:20,000 Speaker 7: A commodity is simultaneously a concrete physical object that nonetheless 1660 01:48:20,920 --> 01:48:24,479 Speaker 7: contains within it an abstract social relation. It has at 1661 01:48:24,479 --> 01:48:26,880 Speaker 7: the same time a use value, which is like, you know, 1662 01:48:27,560 --> 01:48:30,599 Speaker 7: the thing that makes it useful, right, Like take a pencil, right, pencil, 1663 01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:31,040 Speaker 7: it has. 1664 01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:31,599 Speaker 8: A use value. 1665 01:48:31,640 --> 01:48:34,160 Speaker 7: The use value is that you can like use it 1666 01:48:34,280 --> 01:48:36,280 Speaker 7: to write things, right, and you can use it to 1667 01:48:36,360 --> 01:48:40,040 Speaker 7: erase things. But the pencil also has an exchange value. 1668 01:48:41,120 --> 01:48:44,519 Speaker 7: And the exchange value, you know, is the value quote 1669 01:48:44,600 --> 01:48:47,800 Speaker 7: unquote that you use it to compare it to other commodities. Right, 1670 01:48:47,800 --> 01:48:49,280 Speaker 7: It's like, how much is this thing? How much is 1671 01:48:49,360 --> 01:48:51,640 Speaker 7: this thing worth? How much is this compared to like 1672 01:48:52,320 --> 01:48:54,799 Speaker 7: other commodities, And this is a that's simply an enormous 1673 01:48:54,880 --> 01:48:58,040 Speaker 7: that's that's kind of a simplication of it. But what's 1674 01:48:58,080 --> 01:49:02,200 Speaker 7: happening here is that the sort of the exchange value 1675 01:49:02,240 --> 01:49:04,200 Speaker 7: that lets you compare how much a pencil is worth 1676 01:49:04,240 --> 01:49:06,840 Speaker 7: and how much a bracelet is worth right, that's not 1677 01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:10,080 Speaker 7: an actual characteristic of the pencil or the bracelet. That 1678 01:49:10,240 --> 01:49:13,800 Speaker 7: is a serious you know that that's an embedded social relation, right, 1679 01:49:14,479 --> 01:49:17,240 Speaker 7: is an embedded capitalist social relation that allows a commodity 1680 01:49:17,439 --> 01:49:21,120 Speaker 7: to be compared to all of the commodities by again 1681 01:49:21,240 --> 01:49:25,280 Speaker 7: like embedding this capitalist social relation into it. The important 1682 01:49:25,400 --> 01:49:28,479 Speaker 7: part for our purposes is that the commodity has at 1683 01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:32,360 Speaker 7: the same time a concrete component, which is the physical object, 1684 01:49:32,439 --> 01:49:34,599 Speaker 7: and an abstract component, which is the sort of capitalist 1685 01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:38,639 Speaker 7: social relation embedded in the pencil that makes it appear 1686 01:49:38,680 --> 01:49:44,560 Speaker 7: to have value. Here's pistone as indicated above. On the 1687 01:49:44,680 --> 01:49:48,960 Speaker 7: logical level of the analysis of the commodity, the quote 1688 01:49:49,040 --> 01:49:53,000 Speaker 7: double character allows the commodity to appear as a purely 1689 01:49:53,160 --> 01:49:58,479 Speaker 7: material entity rather than as an objectification of mediated social relations. 1690 01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:02,320 Speaker 7: So this is a more complicated way of saying what 1691 01:50:02,439 --> 01:50:04,080 Speaker 7: I've sort of been trying to get at, which is 1692 01:50:04,120 --> 01:50:06,759 Speaker 7: that the commodity, you know, because it's a physical object. 1693 01:50:07,120 --> 01:50:07,240 Speaker 8: Right. 1694 01:50:09,439 --> 01:50:12,559 Speaker 7: The commodity fetish allows the commodity to appear as if 1695 01:50:12,560 --> 01:50:16,360 Speaker 7: it's just a pure physical object instead of something that 1696 01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:20,080 Speaker 7: is produced by capitalism and contains within it capitalist social 1697 01:50:20,160 --> 01:50:26,160 Speaker 7: relations that give value. So we'll back back back to pistone. Relatedly, 1698 01:50:26,439 --> 01:50:30,520 Speaker 7: it allows concrete labor to appear as a purely material 1699 01:50:30,680 --> 01:50:35,639 Speaker 7: creative process separate from capitalist social relations. On the logical 1700 01:50:35,720 --> 01:50:41,040 Speaker 7: level of capital, the double character labor process and valorization process. 1701 01:50:41,120 --> 01:50:43,639 Speaker 7: And by valorization process he means the process that turns 1702 01:50:44,439 --> 01:50:47,640 Speaker 7: you know, capital into more capital. So the fact that 1703 01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:51,400 Speaker 7: there's both a labor process and a valorization process allows 1704 01:50:51,479 --> 01:50:55,400 Speaker 7: industrial production to appear as a purely material, creative process 1705 01:50:55,560 --> 01:50:59,720 Speaker 7: separable from capital. The manifest form of the concrete is 1706 01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:03,920 Speaker 7: now more organic. Industrial capital can then appear as linear 1707 01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:09,040 Speaker 7: descendant of quote natural artismal labor as quote organically rooted 1708 01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:15,120 Speaker 7: in opposition to rootless, quote parasitic finance capital. You can 1709 01:51:15,200 --> 01:51:18,360 Speaker 7: see here where the whole sort of productive versus unproductive 1710 01:51:18,400 --> 01:51:22,400 Speaker 7: labor distinction has ended up right. It's been transformed into 1711 01:51:22,479 --> 01:51:27,599 Speaker 7: the sort of organic concrete rooted like productive national worker 1712 01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:33,000 Speaker 7: and like entrepreneur versus like rootless parasitic finance capital. This 1713 01:51:33,720 --> 01:51:39,479 Speaker 7: is unbelievably dangerous because now having set the concrete against 1714 01:51:39,520 --> 01:51:42,400 Speaker 7: the abstract, the fascist proceeds to turn the abstract into 1715 01:51:42,479 --> 01:51:46,920 Speaker 7: a people, which is Jewish people. The result of this 1716 01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:49,400 Speaker 7: is that in the fascist mind, the sort of concrete 1717 01:51:49,400 --> 01:51:53,120 Speaker 7: productive worker and the entrepreneur stand against the abstract anti 1718 01:51:53,240 --> 01:51:56,639 Speaker 7: national finance capital personified in the figure of the Jew. 1719 01:51:57,320 --> 01:52:00,880 Speaker 7: Here's pistona again of what happened next the extermination of 1720 01:52:00,960 --> 01:52:03,800 Speaker 7: European jeury is the indication that it is far too 1721 01:52:03,920 --> 01:52:06,439 Speaker 7: simple to deal with Nazism as a mass movement with 1722 01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:09,880 Speaker 7: anti capitalist overtones, which shed that husk in the nineteen 1723 01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:13,360 Speaker 7: thirty four Rome push at the latest, once dead served 1724 01:52:13,360 --> 01:52:17,000 Speaker 7: its purpose in state power have been seized. In the 1725 01:52:17,120 --> 01:52:21,600 Speaker 7: first place, ideological forms of thought are not simply conscious manipulations. 1726 01:52:22,680 --> 01:52:25,800 Speaker 7: In the second place, this view misunderstands the nature of 1727 01:52:25,920 --> 01:52:29,400 Speaker 7: Nazi quote anti capitalism, the extent to which it was 1728 01:52:29,479 --> 01:52:34,519 Speaker 7: intrinsically bound to the anti Semitic worldview. Auschwitz indicates that connection. 1729 01:52:35,400 --> 01:52:38,240 Speaker 7: It is true that the somewhat too concrete and Plebeian 1730 01:52:38,360 --> 01:52:41,720 Speaker 7: quote unquote anti capitalism of the essay was dispensed with 1731 01:52:41,920 --> 01:52:46,240 Speaker 7: by nineteen thirty four, not, however, the anti Semitic thrust 1732 01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:50,480 Speaker 7: the knowledge quote unquote, that the source of evil is abstract. 1733 01:52:50,760 --> 01:52:51,200 Speaker 8: The Jew. 1734 01:52:52,520 --> 01:52:55,439 Speaker 7: A capitalist factory is a place where value is produced, 1735 01:52:55,960 --> 01:52:59,519 Speaker 7: which unfortunately has to take the form of the production 1736 01:52:59,640 --> 01:53:04,040 Speaker 7: of goods of use values. The concrete is produced as 1737 01:53:04,080 --> 01:53:09,160 Speaker 7: the necessary carrier of the abstract. The extermination camps were 1738 01:53:09,200 --> 01:53:13,840 Speaker 7: not a terrible version of the factory. The extermination camps 1739 01:53:13,880 --> 01:53:16,200 Speaker 7: were not a terrible version of such a factory, but 1740 01:53:16,439 --> 01:53:20,040 Speaker 7: rather it should be seen as its grotesque aryan quote 1741 01:53:20,080 --> 01:53:25,240 Speaker 7: anti capitalist negation. Auschwist was a factory to quote unquote 1742 01:53:25,320 --> 01:53:29,920 Speaker 7: destroy value, that is, to destroy the personifications of the abstract. 1743 01:53:30,880 --> 01:53:34,640 Speaker 7: Its organization was that of a fiendish industrial process, the 1744 01:53:34,720 --> 01:53:38,120 Speaker 7: aim of which was to liberate the concrete from the abstract. 1745 01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:41,120 Speaker 7: The first step was a dehumanize, that is, to rip 1746 01:53:41,160 --> 01:53:46,920 Speaker 7: away the quote unquote mask of humanity, of qualitative specificity, 1747 01:53:47,320 --> 01:53:50,280 Speaker 7: and reveal the Jews for quote what they really are 1748 01:53:50,800 --> 01:53:56,479 Speaker 7: shadows Cipher's numbered abstractions. The second step was to then 1749 01:53:56,960 --> 01:54:03,640 Speaker 7: eradicate that abstractness. He transform it into smoke, trying in 1750 01:54:03,720 --> 01:54:06,120 Speaker 7: the process to rest away the last remains of the 1751 01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:12,680 Speaker 7: concrete material use value, clothes, gold hair, soap. Auschwitz, not 1752 01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:15,160 Speaker 7: the Nazi seizure of power in nineteen thirty three, was 1753 01:54:15,200 --> 01:54:19,759 Speaker 7: the real German revolution. The attempted to overthrow not merely 1754 01:54:19,840 --> 01:54:22,759 Speaker 7: of a political order, but of the existing social formation. 1755 01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:25,880 Speaker 7: By this one deed, the world was to be made 1756 01:54:26,000 --> 01:54:27,840 Speaker 7: safe from the tyranny of the abstract. 1757 01:54:28,520 --> 01:54:30,240 Speaker 5: In the process, the Nazis. 1758 01:54:29,960 --> 01:54:34,880 Speaker 7: Quote unquote, liberated themselves from humanity. The Nazis lost the 1759 01:54:34,960 --> 01:54:38,640 Speaker 7: war against the Soviet Union, America and Britain. They won 1760 01:54:38,760 --> 01:54:45,760 Speaker 7: their war, their revolution against the European Jews. And this ideology, 1761 01:54:47,200 --> 01:54:51,000 Speaker 7: this pitting of the abstract against the concrete, is so 1762 01:54:51,320 --> 01:54:54,680 Speaker 7: powerful that it was never defeated. By the time the 1763 01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:57,440 Speaker 7: Nazis were defeated militarily, they had, you know, by the 1764 01:54:57,520 --> 01:54:59,960 Speaker 7: combined might of five of the largest empires in human hait, 1765 01:55:00,320 --> 01:55:04,720 Speaker 7: they had already won, and their ideology never went away. 1766 01:55:05,560 --> 01:55:08,640 Speaker 7: If you look closely, you can still see it moving. 1767 01:55:08,480 --> 01:55:09,160 Speaker 5: Throughout the world. 1768 01:55:10,440 --> 01:55:12,400 Speaker 7: You can see it in the left making exactly the 1769 01:55:12,440 --> 01:55:16,160 Speaker 7: same mistakes it made before, waging war against the abstract 1770 01:55:16,240 --> 01:55:18,640 Speaker 7: in the name of an anti capitalism that can never 1771 01:55:18,880 --> 01:55:22,480 Speaker 7: end with the actual destruction of capitalism in that specific form. 1772 01:55:23,160 --> 01:55:25,360 Speaker 7: You can see it in a right that openly espouses 1773 01:55:25,440 --> 01:55:27,800 Speaker 7: these exact same ideas, in the form of pitting their 1774 01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:31,920 Speaker 7: nationalists and patriots against the globalists, in the way it 1775 01:55:32,000 --> 01:55:37,680 Speaker 7: pits national American or Russian or Hungarian workers against George Soros. 1776 01:55:39,160 --> 01:55:40,320 Speaker 8: It is the basis of all. 1777 01:55:40,280 --> 01:55:44,280 Speaker 7: Modern right wing thought. And when we come back from ADS, 1778 01:55:44,360 --> 01:55:48,120 Speaker 7: we're going to talk about right wing thoughts other basis 1779 01:55:49,080 --> 01:55:54,560 Speaker 7: Ronald Reagan's rampant racism. We've now seen one way that 1780 01:55:54,680 --> 01:55:57,960 Speaker 7: the productive and unproductive worker distinction can be turned into 1781 01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:02,440 Speaker 7: unfathomable right wing violence, and now we're going to take 1782 01:56:02,480 --> 01:56:06,320 Speaker 7: a look at another one, which is the myth of 1783 01:56:06,400 --> 01:56:10,120 Speaker 7: the welfare queen. So one of the ways that Reagan 1784 01:56:10,200 --> 01:56:12,920 Speaker 7: eventually took power was bite. I mean literally, he was 1785 01:56:13,000 --> 01:56:15,360 Speaker 7: doing this for like a decade. He does it for 1786 01:56:15,520 --> 01:56:20,720 Speaker 7: like twenty fucking years. It's insufferable, is screaming about the 1787 01:56:20,840 --> 01:56:24,840 Speaker 7: myth of the welfare queen. So the welfare queen for 1788 01:56:25,280 --> 01:56:28,600 Speaker 7: people who like, I don't know, we're too young to 1789 01:56:28,760 --> 01:56:31,000 Speaker 7: like remember what I mean. I wasn't around for the 1790 01:56:31,080 --> 01:56:33,480 Speaker 7: original height of it, but like I fucking remember it 1791 01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:36,000 Speaker 7: from when I was a kid. It's this sort of 1792 01:56:36,120 --> 01:56:39,080 Speaker 7: like mythical racist caricature of like a black woman who 1793 01:56:39,120 --> 01:56:44,840 Speaker 7: lives off of scamming the welfare system. And you can 1794 01:56:44,880 --> 01:56:47,560 Speaker 7: see what's happening here pretty clearly, right, This is not 1795 01:56:47,760 --> 01:56:51,800 Speaker 7: like a particularly subtle political maneuver. The plan is to 1796 01:56:52,080 --> 01:56:54,680 Speaker 7: pit you know, sort of so called like productive workers 1797 01:56:54,760 --> 01:56:58,880 Speaker 7: and entrepreneurs versus people on welfare, and through through the 1798 01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:04,080 Speaker 7: sort of incredible power of racism and specifically misogyn noir, 1799 01:57:04,240 --> 01:57:07,520 Speaker 7: which is, you know, through the power of America's just 1800 01:57:07,720 --> 01:57:11,240 Speaker 7: like specific abiden casure to black women, the identity of 1801 01:57:11,320 --> 01:57:15,120 Speaker 7: the worker is transflowed into a racial category. So what 1802 01:57:15,280 --> 01:57:18,840 Speaker 7: you're actually dealing with is this opposition Reagan is trying 1803 01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:22,240 Speaker 7: to create between quote unquote like productive white people who 1804 01:57:22,440 --> 01:57:25,680 Speaker 7: like work for a living or whatever, and you know 1805 01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:28,760 Speaker 7: black welfare queens quote unquote who are dependent on the 1806 01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:30,320 Speaker 7: state and don't work. And this is this is this 1807 01:57:30,440 --> 01:57:33,600 Speaker 7: is sort of Reagan's framing of it. Now, if you 1808 01:57:33,680 --> 01:57:37,400 Speaker 7: go back to this sort of older Marxist conception of class, right, 1809 01:57:37,560 --> 01:57:41,240 Speaker 7: like unemployed black people are like unambiguously part of the 1810 01:57:41,320 --> 01:57:45,120 Speaker 7: working class. And this is something that Reagan understood. Now, 1811 01:57:45,400 --> 01:57:48,080 Speaker 7: part of what was going on here actually was Reagan 1812 01:57:48,200 --> 01:57:50,640 Speaker 7: attempting to sort of crack down on black welfare activists. 1813 01:57:50,680 --> 01:57:53,720 Speaker 7: You were doing a lot of you know, really incredible organizing, 1814 01:57:53,800 --> 01:57:57,040 Speaker 7: ranging from sort of like you know, organizing mass protests 1815 01:57:57,120 --> 01:58:00,560 Speaker 7: to like doing squats to doing like it's fall on 1816 01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:04,840 Speaker 7: building occupations and Reagan, and more so the people sort 1817 01:58:04,840 --> 01:58:07,720 Speaker 7: of around Reagan by the end, because you know, like 1818 01:58:08,760 --> 01:58:11,680 Speaker 7: by like term two, Reagan has like basically checked out, 1819 01:58:12,160 --> 01:58:14,840 Speaker 7: you know, But the people around Reagan can see which 1820 01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:17,520 Speaker 7: way the wind is blowing, and you know, they are 1821 01:58:17,640 --> 01:58:19,880 Speaker 7: busy sort of like lining up every fan they can 1822 01:58:19,960 --> 01:58:21,960 Speaker 7: find to make the wind blow a bit stronger. And 1823 01:58:22,040 --> 01:58:24,720 Speaker 7: the way that the winds are blowing is that a 1824 01:58:24,800 --> 01:58:26,760 Speaker 7: bunch of people are about to be spat out of 1825 01:58:26,800 --> 01:58:30,240 Speaker 7: the capitalist system and too increasingly precarious service jobs or 1826 01:58:30,360 --> 01:58:33,440 Speaker 7: just no jobs at all. And as the sort of 1827 01:58:33,520 --> 01:58:37,200 Speaker 7: crisis dynamics emerged and intensified, and people tend to forget this. 1828 01:58:37,360 --> 01:58:41,160 Speaker 7: But Reagan's term started with him nuking the economy, setting 1829 01:58:41,200 --> 01:58:43,520 Speaker 7: off a recession and jacking employment up to ten percent. 1830 01:58:44,680 --> 01:58:48,800 Speaker 7: But you know, as this unfolds, Reagan sees a perfect 1831 01:58:48,880 --> 01:58:52,840 Speaker 7: opportunity to sever what Marks would call the industrial reserve army. 1832 01:58:53,360 --> 01:58:55,200 Speaker 7: Who are you know, all the people who've been spat 1833 01:58:55,240 --> 01:58:57,400 Speaker 7: out of the capitalist system and forced to face sort 1834 01:58:57,400 --> 01:59:00,960 Speaker 7: of pecarity and unemployments. He sees an opportunity to like 1835 01:59:01,240 --> 01:59:03,680 Speaker 7: to split these people from workers who held on to 1836 01:59:03,760 --> 01:59:07,240 Speaker 7: their jobs. And the way you do this is by 1837 01:59:07,320 --> 01:59:10,000 Speaker 7: talking about class in a way that's really about race. 1838 01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:14,800 Speaker 7: This new sort of moral division of like productive non 1839 01:59:14,800 --> 01:59:18,040 Speaker 7: productive worker is incredibly racialized, which is to say that, like, 1840 01:59:18,120 --> 01:59:21,800 Speaker 7: I mean, it's just it's just really racist. There's no 1841 01:59:22,000 --> 01:59:25,400 Speaker 7: certain I don't know, there's no I'm I'm not gonna 1842 01:59:25,400 --> 01:59:27,160 Speaker 7: do the circumlocution on that ship. 1843 01:59:27,280 --> 01:59:27,480 Speaker 4: It is. 1844 01:59:27,680 --> 01:59:31,000 Speaker 7: It is really racist, and it's it's specifically designed to 1845 01:59:31,080 --> 01:59:33,560 Speaker 7: pit white workers against black workers. And it's also this 1846 01:59:33,600 --> 01:59:36,840 Speaker 7: is something we should point out here, like reality has 1847 01:59:36,920 --> 01:59:40,120 Speaker 7: no effect on on the sort of like the actual 1848 01:59:40,160 --> 01:59:43,680 Speaker 7: propaganda value. But like the people who are on welfare 1849 01:59:44,120 --> 01:59:47,120 Speaker 7: who are working like they're off, they're working a lot, 1850 01:59:47,200 --> 01:59:49,760 Speaker 7: they're working really shit jobs. They're working more than the 1851 01:59:49,800 --> 01:59:51,840 Speaker 7: people who aren't on welfare in a lot of cases. 1852 01:59:52,320 --> 01:59:55,480 Speaker 7: What's happening here, right, is is this, this this entire 1853 01:59:55,560 --> 01:59:58,360 Speaker 7: thing is very specifically designed to pit white workers against 1854 01:59:58,360 --> 02:00:04,120 Speaker 7: black workers by invoking racial prejudice, and slightly more subtly, 1855 02:00:04,320 --> 02:00:07,920 Speaker 7: is designed to remove black workers from the category of 1856 02:00:08,080 --> 02:00:11,040 Speaker 7: labor altogether through you know, the sort of sort of 1857 02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:14,280 Speaker 7: means of America's like deep in abiding hatred of black women. 1858 02:00:15,200 --> 02:00:20,040 Speaker 7: Now back in sort of reality. And again bearing in 1859 02:00:20,080 --> 02:00:23,360 Speaker 7: mind reality has no effect on this bullshit. But you know, 1860 02:00:23,520 --> 02:00:27,000 Speaker 7: back in reality, like the actual biggest welfare cheat of 1861 02:00:27,080 --> 02:00:30,160 Speaker 7: the modern era is Brett Farr, former quarterback in the 1862 02:00:30,200 --> 02:00:33,520 Speaker 7: Minnesota Vikings. Please send all complaints at irite, okay on Twitter. 1863 02:00:34,200 --> 02:00:38,040 Speaker 7: Far managed to spend seventy seven million dollars of welfare 1864 02:00:38,120 --> 02:00:41,640 Speaker 7: money on a bunch of bullshit that includes like trying 1865 02:00:41,680 --> 02:00:44,600 Speaker 7: to get a multimillion dollar volleyball facility built at his 1866 02:00:44,720 --> 02:00:49,400 Speaker 7: daughter's school. The actual woman who was like the model 1867 02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:53,920 Speaker 7: for the first like welfare queen thing like, may have 1868 02:00:54,080 --> 02:00:59,280 Speaker 7: stolen eight thousand dollars. But you know this, this doesn't 1869 02:00:59,360 --> 02:01:03,640 Speaker 7: matter at all because again, like reality's ability to combat 1870 02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:08,080 Speaker 7: propaganda is incredibly weak, and you know, and the other 1871 02:01:08,240 --> 02:01:10,160 Speaker 7: the other thing that's that's important to understand about this, 1872 02:01:10,240 --> 02:01:13,800 Speaker 7: right is this was never actually about the money, and 1873 02:01:13,880 --> 02:01:15,720 Speaker 7: this is something that people use to try to combat 1874 02:01:15,760 --> 02:01:17,840 Speaker 7: this stuff, right, which people will point out and they're 1875 02:01:17,960 --> 02:01:20,840 Speaker 7: right that, like, yeah, like you know, in order in 1876 02:01:20,960 --> 02:01:24,480 Speaker 7: order to like quote unquote combat welfare fraud, like you 1877 02:01:24,560 --> 02:01:26,640 Speaker 7: spend more money try to combat the fraud than you 1878 02:01:26,720 --> 02:01:29,320 Speaker 7: save on the fraud. But that's not the point. That's 1879 02:01:29,320 --> 02:01:32,840 Speaker 7: not the point at all. The point is again like 1880 02:01:33,120 --> 02:01:36,080 Speaker 7: turning white workers against black workers to happen to be unemployed. 1881 02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:39,400 Speaker 7: And it works incredibly well because they tap into two 1882 02:01:39,920 --> 02:01:43,240 Speaker 7: just really powerful wells of emotion racism, and they happen 1883 02:01:43,320 --> 02:01:46,200 Speaker 7: to do a second one, which is people hating work. 1884 02:01:47,120 --> 02:01:49,840 Speaker 7: But because this is the right the way they tap 1885 02:01:49,920 --> 02:01:52,320 Speaker 7: into people hating work was they transform it into the 1886 02:01:52,440 --> 02:01:57,680 Speaker 7: seething hatred and resentment at the possibility of someone not 1887 02:01:58,080 --> 02:02:01,440 Speaker 7: having to have the suffering that you have and doing 1888 02:02:01,520 --> 02:02:02,920 Speaker 7: the thing that you always want to do, which is 1889 02:02:03,040 --> 02:02:06,280 Speaker 7: not work, and then tying that to, oh, these people 1890 02:02:06,920 --> 02:02:09,040 Speaker 7: don't have to suffer the way that I do because 1891 02:02:09,080 --> 02:02:12,600 Speaker 7: they're living off of like the product of my labor. 1892 02:02:13,920 --> 02:02:16,040 Speaker 7: And you know, you can you can see the sort 1893 02:02:16,080 --> 02:02:20,440 Speaker 7: of ghosts right of like an anti capitalist critique of labor, 1894 02:02:20,480 --> 02:02:22,120 Speaker 7: which is like, yeah, there are a bunch of people 1895 02:02:22,280 --> 02:02:24,880 Speaker 7: who like don't work a fucking day in their lives 1896 02:02:24,960 --> 02:02:27,520 Speaker 7: off the prophecy proceeds of our labors. They wear a 1897 02:02:27,560 --> 02:02:31,640 Speaker 7: bunch of suits and they you know, they they're like 1898 02:02:31,960 --> 02:02:35,640 Speaker 7: seventeenth generation like descendants of the Walton family or whatever. 1899 02:02:36,440 --> 02:02:37,880 Speaker 7: But you know, this is this is the sort of 1900 02:02:37,960 --> 02:02:40,760 Speaker 7: right wing version of it. And so through the sort 1901 02:02:40,800 --> 02:02:43,080 Speaker 7: of lens of racism and through the sort of transformation 1902 02:02:43,440 --> 02:02:48,960 Speaker 7: of class and productivity like into into sort of like 1903 02:02:49,320 --> 02:02:56,040 Speaker 7: pure race discourse, they've managed to sort of, you know, 1904 02:02:56,120 --> 02:03:01,560 Speaker 7: they've managed to completely transform the way people think about class. 1905 02:03:01,600 --> 02:03:03,040 Speaker 7: And this is this is a big part of the 1906 02:03:03,080 --> 02:03:07,960 Speaker 7: reason why the way Americans think about classes is so 1907 02:03:08,040 --> 02:03:09,560 Speaker 7: incredibly messed up. And it's a big part of the 1908 02:03:09,600 --> 02:03:14,720 Speaker 7: reason why, you know, the United States has spent, i mean, 1909 02:03:14,800 --> 02:03:20,600 Speaker 7: spent the next fifty years doing this unbelievably merciless like 1910 02:03:21,480 --> 02:03:27,600 Speaker 7: ruthless purge and just like mass infliction of suffering on 1911 02:03:27,800 --> 02:03:31,080 Speaker 7: the poorest people in the US. It's because of this shit. 1912 02:03:32,240 --> 02:03:35,120 Speaker 7: And this is also the reason that no one, you know, 1913 02:03:35,400 --> 02:03:38,120 Speaker 7: if you're fucking reading the New York Times, right, you 1914 02:03:38,200 --> 02:03:41,400 Speaker 7: will never hear anybody talk about black workers. They will 1915 02:03:41,440 --> 02:03:45,440 Speaker 7: only ever talk about white workers. And this is because 1916 02:03:45,680 --> 02:03:49,160 Speaker 7: that ideological project, the ideological project that Reagan was attempting 1917 02:03:49,200 --> 02:03:51,760 Speaker 7: to do, was a big part of It was again 1918 02:03:51,920 --> 02:03:55,879 Speaker 7: about an attempt to expel black workers from the popular 1919 02:03:56,080 --> 02:03:59,320 Speaker 7: collective imagination of the working class. And it fucking worked. 1920 02:03:59,760 --> 02:04:00,880 Speaker 7: If you're a white pundit. 1921 02:04:01,040 --> 02:04:01,920 Speaker 8: You can do this thing. 1922 02:04:02,360 --> 02:04:04,480 Speaker 7: You can make an entire career off of study and 1923 02:04:04,560 --> 02:04:07,400 Speaker 7: quote unquote the working class only ever talk to white 1924 02:04:07,440 --> 02:04:09,600 Speaker 7: people because that's the only part of the working class 1925 02:04:09,640 --> 02:04:12,040 Speaker 7: that like exists, to these people that they even will 1926 02:04:12,120 --> 02:04:16,920 Speaker 7: pretend matters. And then you know, never mentioned black workers 1927 02:04:17,320 --> 02:04:20,800 Speaker 7: even existing at all, much less like engage with black 1928 02:04:20,840 --> 02:04:22,920 Speaker 7: workers is like the core of the workers movements. And 1929 02:04:23,280 --> 02:04:25,840 Speaker 7: no one outside of like actual leftist circles or even 1930 02:04:25,880 --> 02:04:27,280 Speaker 7: bad and I no one, no one even thinks this 1931 02:04:27,360 --> 02:04:29,560 Speaker 7: is fucking weird, right, And you can get away with 1932 02:04:29,640 --> 02:04:32,080 Speaker 7: this ship because you know, eighty percent of all discourse 1933 02:04:32,120 --> 02:04:36,200 Speaker 7: about class is really about race or gender, and you know, 1934 02:04:36,280 --> 02:04:38,320 Speaker 7: eighty percent of all discourse but race as fucking white 1935 02:04:38,360 --> 02:04:41,880 Speaker 7: people talking to other white people. And that's what we're 1936 02:04:41,920 --> 02:04:44,440 Speaker 7: going to end for today. We will we will come 1937 02:04:44,560 --> 02:04:47,720 Speaker 7: back to the sort of ruling class reaction to this 1938 02:04:47,960 --> 02:04:52,200 Speaker 7: another time. But in the meantime, this has been naked 1939 02:04:52,240 --> 02:04:55,400 Speaker 7: happen here, go out into the world and make something 1940 02:04:55,480 --> 02:04:56,200 Speaker 7: that's not this one. 1941 02:05:06,040 --> 02:05:08,880 Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here. The episode you're about to 1942 02:05:08,920 --> 02:05:12,160 Speaker 2: hear was recorded late last night at like two in 1943 02:05:12,240 --> 02:05:16,240 Speaker 2: the morning. Due to the time difference between me and Joe, 1944 02:05:16,440 --> 02:05:19,800 Speaker 2: who is based in Armenia. As you may have heard, 1945 02:05:20,280 --> 02:05:26,040 Speaker 2: Azerbijan launched another attack on the independent Armenian majority region 1946 02:05:26,200 --> 02:05:30,760 Speaker 2: of Artsak, which is in territory that Azerbijan claims. Since 1947 02:05:30,840 --> 02:05:33,680 Speaker 2: we recorded this a couple hours after the Artzok defense 1948 02:05:33,760 --> 02:05:39,040 Speaker 2: forces have surrendered, there's currently negotiations and something that's being 1949 02:05:39,080 --> 02:05:42,160 Speaker 2: called a ceasefire. Although there continue to be reports of 1950 02:05:42,280 --> 02:05:47,640 Speaker 2: shelling and other violent acts by the Azeri military. It's 1951 02:05:47,720 --> 02:05:50,240 Speaker 2: kind of unclear what is going to happen. Tens of 1952 02:05:50,320 --> 02:05:55,240 Speaker 2: thousands of frightened Armenians have crowded the airport out of Artzok. 1953 02:05:55,840 --> 02:05:59,560 Speaker 2: Pictures are pretty stunning and sobering, out of fears that 1954 02:05:59,720 --> 02:06:04,120 Speaker 2: Aside will be instituted against the Armenian populace in that area. 1955 02:06:04,600 --> 02:06:06,560 Speaker 2: The episode you're about to hear is Joe and I 1956 02:06:06,760 --> 02:06:11,480 Speaker 2: kind of talking earlier in the invasion, pretty soon after 1957 02:06:11,640 --> 02:06:15,200 Speaker 2: it happened, going over some of the history, what's going 1958 02:06:15,280 --> 02:06:18,200 Speaker 2: on now, fears for the future. So I thought it 1959 02:06:18,280 --> 02:06:20,120 Speaker 2: was still valuable stuff, but I wanted to let you 1960 02:06:20,240 --> 02:06:23,760 Speaker 2: know the situation has advanced since we recorded this, As 1961 02:06:23,880 --> 02:06:26,320 Speaker 2: is often the case when you're talking about you know, 1962 02:06:26,640 --> 02:06:28,200 Speaker 2: unfolding events. 1963 02:06:28,480 --> 02:06:29,160 Speaker 5: So thank you. 1964 02:06:34,480 --> 02:06:39,200 Speaker 2: Hey everyone, welcome to it could happen here, a podcast 1965 02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:45,440 Speaker 2: about it happening here, And unfortunately for our guest today 1966 02:06:45,640 --> 02:06:48,600 Speaker 2: it is again this is not the first time that 1967 02:06:48,760 --> 02:06:53,120 Speaker 2: it has been happening where this person happens to live. 1968 02:06:53,640 --> 02:06:56,680 Speaker 2: Joe Kasabian, Joe, Hey, how you doing, buddy? 1969 02:06:57,320 --> 02:07:00,360 Speaker 8: Hey, Robert, it's I. I would like this say it's 1970 02:07:00,360 --> 02:07:02,560 Speaker 8: good to be back. But you know this tends to 1971 02:07:02,640 --> 02:07:03,160 Speaker 8: happen a lot. 1972 02:07:04,360 --> 02:07:07,560 Speaker 2: We did you know in between the first time you 1973 02:07:07,680 --> 02:07:09,360 Speaker 2: were or the last time you were on this show 1974 02:07:09,640 --> 02:07:11,880 Speaker 2: and now you know, we had a surprise meeting in 1975 02:07:12,000 --> 02:07:13,720 Speaker 2: Dublin that was a lovely time. 1976 02:07:14,760 --> 02:07:16,000 Speaker 8: That is true. That is true. 1977 02:07:16,080 --> 02:07:19,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, And now Joe, you uh, you are a podcaster, 1978 02:07:20,720 --> 02:07:27,600 Speaker 2: a genocide expert and academic studying that and also you know, 1979 02:07:27,760 --> 02:07:30,680 Speaker 2: the host of the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast, which 1980 02:07:30,760 --> 02:07:35,520 Speaker 2: is a lovely podcast. And you are based out of Yerevan, 1981 02:07:35,800 --> 02:07:40,120 Speaker 2: which is the capital of Armenia, which is a country 1982 02:07:40,520 --> 02:07:47,600 Speaker 2: that is not yet being invaded but is also in 1983 02:07:47,720 --> 02:07:50,840 Speaker 2: that in another way is being invaded right now, right 1984 02:07:51,000 --> 02:07:56,440 Speaker 2: like it's a it's a complicated situation. Basically, the gist 1985 02:07:56,480 --> 02:07:58,280 Speaker 2: of it is folks, if you're if you're kind of 1986 02:07:58,320 --> 02:08:01,720 Speaker 2: tuning in, there is a there are a number of 1987 02:08:01,760 --> 02:08:07,480 Speaker 2: different like little republics in the Caucasus region, and one 1988 02:08:07,520 --> 02:08:09,840 Speaker 2: of the like, over the course of the last like 1989 02:08:10,000 --> 02:08:14,240 Speaker 2: I don't know, a couple of thousand years, there have 1990 02:08:14,400 --> 02:08:17,760 Speaker 2: been a lot of Armenian people in this area that 1991 02:08:17,840 --> 02:08:21,120 Speaker 2: we call the Caucases, right, and you know, you have 1992 02:08:21,400 --> 02:08:25,080 Speaker 2: your you know, a couple of thousand years of history. 1993 02:08:25,280 --> 02:08:27,600 Speaker 2: You know, around the eleventh century, you get, you know, 1994 02:08:27,720 --> 02:08:30,320 Speaker 2: some claims start being made to this area in what 1995 02:08:30,520 --> 02:08:37,360 Speaker 2: is now called Karbak Artsak. And yeah, now you've got 1996 02:08:37,800 --> 02:08:41,320 Speaker 2: this kind of area that is an Armenian majority region 1997 02:08:41,640 --> 02:08:47,640 Speaker 2: where the surrounding Azeri people argue that it is their land, 1998 02:08:47,760 --> 02:08:50,160 Speaker 2: their territory, that they should be allowed to take it. 1999 02:08:50,240 --> 02:08:51,960 Speaker 2: And there have been a series of wars that have 2000 02:08:52,040 --> 02:08:54,920 Speaker 2: been fighting that have been going on over this area 2001 02:08:55,040 --> 02:08:58,200 Speaker 2: since the fall of the Soviet Union. And now as 2002 02:08:58,280 --> 02:09:01,320 Speaker 2: we are talking right now, Joe, you and I, the 2003 02:09:01,520 --> 02:09:05,520 Speaker 2: Azari military has just launched a new invasion with the 2004 02:09:05,720 --> 02:09:09,160 Speaker 2: presumed goal, with the stated goal really of retaking this 2005 02:09:09,560 --> 02:09:15,000 Speaker 2: entire region and potentially the goal of engaging the Armenian 2006 02:09:15,080 --> 02:09:19,000 Speaker 2: military in a wider formal way, right, that's at least 2007 02:09:19,040 --> 02:09:21,720 Speaker 2: the way the Azaris have discussed it. The Armenian military, 2008 02:09:22,000 --> 02:09:24,560 Speaker 2: the Armenian government has said like, this is not you know, 2009 02:09:24,800 --> 02:09:29,720 Speaker 2: Artsak is not Armenia. This is not like our troops 2010 02:09:29,800 --> 02:09:33,080 Speaker 2: and stuff on the ground here. But the Azaris have 2011 02:09:33,160 --> 02:09:36,960 Speaker 2: basically just said, like, we are disabling Armenian military equipment. 2012 02:09:37,120 --> 02:09:40,160 Speaker 8: Yeah, it's it's you know, it goes back to December 2013 02:09:40,200 --> 02:09:42,920 Speaker 8: of last year. I mean, obviously this goes back even 2014 02:09:42,960 --> 02:09:45,800 Speaker 8: before then. But if you start talking about you know, history, 2015 02:09:45,840 --> 02:09:50,520 Speaker 8: people's eyes are going to glaze over. Yeah, this the 2016 02:09:50,720 --> 02:09:54,040 Speaker 8: the war that was fought in twenty twenty obviously Azerbaijan one. 2017 02:09:54,480 --> 02:09:58,920 Speaker 8: And ever since then, Carlak or Artsak has been cut 2018 02:09:59,000 --> 02:10:02,000 Speaker 8: off on the Republic of Armenia through this area called 2019 02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:06,840 Speaker 8: the Lashing Corridor. And yeah, according to the treaty it 2020 02:10:06,880 --> 02:10:09,080 Speaker 8: was supposed to be maintained by Russian peacekeepers, but it 2021 02:10:09,160 --> 02:10:13,760 Speaker 8: never was, and specifically, since December of twenty twenty two, 2022 02:10:14,560 --> 02:10:17,760 Speaker 8: Karbak has been completely cut off by the Azarian Russian 2023 02:10:17,800 --> 02:10:21,880 Speaker 8: military and is effectively being starved out. So it's been 2024 02:10:22,040 --> 02:10:25,120 Speaker 8: you know, quite a long time, and we knew, like 2025 02:10:25,240 --> 02:10:28,040 Speaker 8: everybody knew the war was going to come again, but 2026 02:10:28,320 --> 02:10:29,600 Speaker 8: we kind of assumed it was gonna be in like 2027 02:10:29,640 --> 02:10:32,320 Speaker 8: twenty twenty five, when the Russians are mandated to leave, 2028 02:10:33,640 --> 02:10:36,760 Speaker 8: but st yesterday, you know, it s already yesterday. 2029 02:10:36,960 --> 02:10:40,040 Speaker 2: It seems like, I think it like the azeris invaded 2030 02:10:40,320 --> 02:10:44,240 Speaker 2: right after about twenty three tons something like that of 2031 02:10:45,360 --> 02:10:50,040 Speaker 2: essentially like bread was brought into like across the Lachin corridor, 2032 02:10:50,120 --> 02:10:53,360 Speaker 2: right like you literally like this, yeah, exactly, yeah, this 2033 02:10:53,520 --> 02:10:56,920 Speaker 2: tiny amount of food makes it into this starving populace 2034 02:10:57,000 --> 02:10:58,640 Speaker 2: and then the next day invasion starts. 2035 02:11:00,160 --> 02:11:03,080 Speaker 8: Since December, they've done as much as they possibly could 2036 02:11:03,120 --> 02:11:05,600 Speaker 8: to turn Karbak into what is effectively an open air 2037 02:11:05,680 --> 02:11:11,160 Speaker 8: concentration camp. And the military operation, Now, what it is 2038 02:11:11,960 --> 02:11:16,040 Speaker 8: it to me is it's a continuation of the twenty 2039 02:11:16,320 --> 02:11:21,360 Speaker 8: twenty war because they couldn't conquer Seapanicrits in twenty twenty, 2040 02:11:21,400 --> 02:11:25,760 Speaker 8: which is the capital of Karabak, due to external pressures 2041 02:11:25,880 --> 02:11:30,520 Speaker 8: as well as military capacity, because during twenty twenty, the 2042 02:11:30,600 --> 02:11:35,920 Speaker 8: Republic of Armenia, despite not legally directly fighting the war, 2043 02:11:36,400 --> 02:11:41,920 Speaker 8: was of course helping Karabak with volunteers, soldiers, military supplies, everything. Sure, 2044 02:11:42,560 --> 02:11:45,760 Speaker 8: this time, they can't. It's completely cut off, and that 2045 02:11:45,960 --> 02:11:48,600 Speaker 8: this is not a war of any kind of near 2046 02:11:48,800 --> 02:11:53,800 Speaker 8: peer powers. The local Karabak defense force, called the Artsak 2047 02:11:53,880 --> 02:11:57,560 Speaker 8: Defense Army, is a self defense group. They have some 2048 02:11:58,080 --> 02:12:00,520 Speaker 8: heavy equipment, but the vast majority of it was destroyed 2049 02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:04,040 Speaker 8: twenty twenty. So this is, you know, effectively like a 2050 02:12:04,120 --> 02:12:06,880 Speaker 8: local gun club trying to fight this army. 2051 02:12:07,280 --> 02:12:09,800 Speaker 2: This is more or less a militia going up against 2052 02:12:09,800 --> 02:12:12,400 Speaker 2: I mean, like the Azaris. One of their major suppliers 2053 02:12:12,400 --> 02:12:16,200 Speaker 2: of arms is Israel, Israel and Turkey. Yeah, yes, Russia, Russia, 2054 02:12:17,040 --> 02:12:20,640 Speaker 2: Russia as well too. Yeah, and Russia is selling obviously 2055 02:12:20,760 --> 02:12:21,840 Speaker 2: to our media as well. 2056 02:12:22,720 --> 02:12:25,680 Speaker 8: They actually aren't that we've we've found out I believe 2057 02:12:25,800 --> 02:12:30,040 Speaker 8: last year. The government isn't the best at transparency, I 2058 02:12:30,200 --> 02:12:33,400 Speaker 8: feel like is the best way to word that. And 2059 02:12:34,160 --> 02:12:37,240 Speaker 8: we have been paying Russia for weapons since twenty twenty. 2060 02:12:37,440 --> 02:12:40,120 Speaker 8: They have not delivered a single bullet since the war. 2061 02:12:40,480 --> 02:12:44,320 Speaker 2: Sorry I should have said Armenia is paying Russia for weapons. 2062 02:12:44,880 --> 02:12:48,720 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, we're being fucked by Russia. But yeah, it's 2063 02:12:50,280 --> 02:12:52,640 Speaker 8: as far as the state of Azari goals are, they're 2064 02:12:52,840 --> 02:12:55,480 Speaker 8: they're very different. In twenty twenty when the war ended, 2065 02:12:55,520 --> 02:12:57,280 Speaker 8: they could frame it as a victory because they took 2066 02:12:57,320 --> 02:13:00,720 Speaker 8: over all these areas that they lost during the first war. 2067 02:13:01,200 --> 02:13:03,640 Speaker 8: Minds about an area where about one hundred and twenty 2068 02:13:03,680 --> 02:13:07,000 Speaker 8: thousand people live in Stapanikirt and the general outskirts there. 2069 02:13:07,480 --> 02:13:11,360 Speaker 8: But this time the messaging is much different. It is, 2070 02:13:11,600 --> 02:13:15,680 Speaker 8: you know, the government must collapse. You know they only 2071 02:13:15,880 --> 02:13:18,560 Speaker 8: going to like this is going quote unquote until the end, 2072 02:13:19,160 --> 02:13:21,920 Speaker 8: until they see a white flag from stepanik Hert. So 2073 02:13:22,440 --> 02:13:25,960 Speaker 8: this is because now if they don't do that, they 2074 02:13:26,040 --> 02:13:30,760 Speaker 8: can't spin it as a victory, right right, And since December, 2075 02:13:31,160 --> 02:13:36,720 Speaker 8: the Lashing corridor has been shut for everybody. People couldn't leave, 2076 02:13:37,280 --> 02:13:40,000 Speaker 8: people who live in Karbak, who are in our media 2077 02:13:40,040 --> 02:13:43,720 Speaker 8: for like school or whatever, couldn't go back. And now suddenly, 2078 02:13:43,840 --> 02:13:47,920 Speaker 8: yesterday when the war started again, they are saying there's 2079 02:13:47,960 --> 02:13:52,600 Speaker 8: a humanitarian corridor through the through Lachen. So the goals 2080 02:13:52,600 --> 02:13:55,200 Speaker 8: are very very clear here and we know from their 2081 02:13:55,320 --> 02:14:00,680 Speaker 8: conduct in twenty twenty government propaganda, just the general attitude 2082 02:14:00,920 --> 02:14:04,520 Speaker 8: of the Azari government towards Armenians, which is they don't 2083 02:14:04,840 --> 02:14:08,280 Speaker 8: they can't exist here, like this is a liquidation of 2084 02:14:08,360 --> 02:14:10,520 Speaker 8: the open air concentration camp that they've created. 2085 02:14:11,840 --> 02:14:14,360 Speaker 2: So, I mean, Joe, first off, I guess what I 2086 02:14:14,400 --> 02:14:18,160 Speaker 2: want to ask is, like, what what is it like 2087 02:14:18,280 --> 02:14:21,400 Speaker 2: in Yerevan right now? Because you know you are you 2088 02:14:21,520 --> 02:14:25,560 Speaker 2: are not far from from where the fighting is continuing 2089 02:14:25,640 --> 02:14:28,280 Speaker 2: at the moment, but obviously you are. Armenia is not 2090 02:14:28,960 --> 02:14:32,040 Speaker 2: technically involved at this point, right Like, that's at least 2091 02:14:32,080 --> 02:14:34,880 Speaker 2: according to the claims of the Armenian government. These aris 2092 02:14:35,360 --> 02:14:39,040 Speaker 2: alleged that they are striking Armenian military targets right now. 2093 02:14:39,840 --> 02:14:41,240 Speaker 2: What is it like in Jervan right now? 2094 02:14:42,000 --> 02:14:44,480 Speaker 8: I think everybody is. I mean, you can see it 2095 02:14:44,560 --> 02:14:47,680 Speaker 8: on everybody's faces, like they just they want information. They 2096 02:14:47,680 --> 02:14:49,800 Speaker 8: want to know what's going to happen next. There's a 2097 02:14:49,880 --> 02:14:53,600 Speaker 8: lot of protests yesterday and into the night because the 2098 02:14:53,680 --> 02:14:55,840 Speaker 8: Prime Minister came out and said, like, you know, we're 2099 02:14:55,880 --> 02:14:59,560 Speaker 8: not going to get involved, and he's not exactly very popular, 2100 02:15:00,280 --> 02:15:02,600 Speaker 8: despite the fact he kind of is our best option 2101 02:15:02,920 --> 02:15:07,240 Speaker 8: at the moment. So there's a lot of you know, 2102 02:15:07,560 --> 02:15:11,960 Speaker 8: rightful anger towards him, towards Russia, towards the EU, you know, 2103 02:15:12,040 --> 02:15:15,000 Speaker 8: you name it. Everybody's mad at everybody. So there was 2104 02:15:16,160 --> 02:15:19,680 Speaker 8: different protests yesterday there was you know, fuck Russia protest, 2105 02:15:19,760 --> 02:15:22,720 Speaker 8: there was fuck Nikol Pashnian, who's our prime minister protest. 2106 02:15:23,040 --> 02:15:25,880 Speaker 8: There was a combination of the two protests. They all 2107 02:15:25,960 --> 02:15:28,200 Speaker 8: kind of met in the middle. There is some fighting 2108 02:15:28,280 --> 02:15:31,320 Speaker 8: with the police. I heard reports that someone quite a 2109 02:15:31,320 --> 02:15:34,440 Speaker 8: few people tried to break into government buildings. That all 2110 02:15:34,560 --> 02:15:37,080 Speaker 8: seemed to have cooled off by that because I went 2111 02:15:37,200 --> 02:15:39,480 Speaker 8: down to the area where there was protesting and I 2112 02:15:39,520 --> 02:15:43,000 Speaker 8: didn't see any of that, but it seemed to have 2113 02:15:43,080 --> 02:15:47,040 Speaker 8: also started up again after I left. But again, it's 2114 02:15:47,280 --> 02:15:50,720 Speaker 8: only day one. People's anger is only going to get 2115 02:15:50,760 --> 02:15:55,840 Speaker 8: worse as the situation in Karabak gets worse. Yeah, you know, 2116 02:15:56,320 --> 02:15:59,320 Speaker 8: the fall of Karabak when Stapana karat If, and when 2117 02:15:59,400 --> 02:16:01,680 Speaker 8: that occurs, I have a hard time believing that the 2118 02:16:01,760 --> 02:16:05,400 Speaker 8: current government here in Armenia will survive. They'll either resign 2119 02:16:05,600 --> 02:16:11,560 Speaker 8: before stouts, you know, an unfortunate third option might happen, 2120 02:16:12,360 --> 02:16:16,200 Speaker 8: especially with the messaging coming from Russia where they're blaming 2121 02:16:16,360 --> 02:16:18,600 Speaker 8: Armenia and specifically the Prime Minister for all of this. 2122 02:16:18,880 --> 02:16:22,880 Speaker 8: Because since September of last year, Armenia has been doing 2123 02:16:24,240 --> 02:16:29,120 Speaker 8: decent diplomacy in turning towards the West. There's American soldiers 2124 02:16:29,280 --> 02:16:32,840 Speaker 8: in the Republic of Armenia right now for training. We've 2125 02:16:32,879 --> 02:16:37,880 Speaker 8: sent supplies to Ukraine. We've all but left the CSTO, 2126 02:16:38,120 --> 02:16:43,000 Speaker 8: which is like Russia's shitty version of NATO. Yeah, so 2127 02:16:43,520 --> 02:16:48,080 Speaker 8: this is not very functional, right, Like yeah, yeah, I 2128 02:16:48,120 --> 02:16:49,600 Speaker 8: mean this is a fact. I mean this is a 2129 02:16:49,720 --> 02:16:54,320 Speaker 8: green lit, punitive expedition on Russia's behalf effected. 2130 02:16:54,480 --> 02:16:54,680 Speaker 4: Yeah. 2131 02:16:55,160 --> 02:16:57,800 Speaker 2: And this is you know a couple of things. So 2132 02:16:58,000 --> 02:17:01,560 Speaker 2: like obviously the way in which which the paper on 2133 02:17:01,720 --> 02:17:06,000 Speaker 2: paper alliances here kind of like chart out is not 2134 02:17:07,120 --> 02:17:10,280 Speaker 2: friendly to the sort of like sound bite media of 2135 02:17:10,680 --> 02:17:14,600 Speaker 2: our day, right because Armenia on paper, Armenia's like big 2136 02:17:15,160 --> 02:17:18,480 Speaker 2: supporter has been Russia recently, right, as. 2137 02:17:18,400 --> 02:17:22,720 Speaker 8: Well as Azerbaijan, like as well, before Russia invaded Ukraine, 2138 02:17:22,760 --> 02:17:26,840 Speaker 8: they like cemented an alliance. But you know, because Azerbaijan 2139 02:17:26,879 --> 02:17:29,800 Speaker 8: has been very overt, I guess you could say, and 2140 02:17:29,879 --> 02:17:32,720 Speaker 8: their support for Ukraine giving them money and you know, 2141 02:17:33,160 --> 02:17:37,240 Speaker 8: supplies here and they're non military supplies but humanitarian supplies. Yeah, 2142 02:17:37,320 --> 02:17:41,960 Speaker 8: this gets spun in the brain dead infosphere as it 2143 02:17:42,120 --> 02:17:45,400 Speaker 8: being like another Russian ally that being Armenia is being 2144 02:17:45,480 --> 02:17:49,800 Speaker 8: invaded or you know, people equate Kara Bak to Crimea 2145 02:17:50,640 --> 02:17:54,840 Speaker 8: and Ukraine's war goals, and since Azerbaijan is, you know, 2146 02:17:55,520 --> 02:18:00,120 Speaker 8: a pr ally of Ukraine and supplying the E you 2147 02:18:00,200 --> 02:18:02,920 Speaker 8: with gas and supplying you with Russian gas as well, 2148 02:18:03,400 --> 02:18:07,040 Speaker 8: it gets spun as like people are cheering for Azerbaijan, 2149 02:18:07,080 --> 02:18:09,920 Speaker 8: which is is absolutely baffling to me. Like it I 2150 02:18:09,959 --> 02:18:12,200 Speaker 8: wish I could say I'm confused or surprised, but like 2151 02:18:12,480 --> 02:18:14,760 Speaker 8: when you treat war like it's a team sport you 2152 02:18:14,840 --> 02:18:16,920 Speaker 8: want to play on your favorite football jersey or whatever. Yeah, 2153 02:18:17,400 --> 02:18:22,760 Speaker 8: this is how it goes. When you know, Karabak declared 2154 02:18:22,840 --> 02:18:28,480 Speaker 8: independence from Azerbaijan during that the Azeri Soviet Socialist Republic 2155 02:18:29,720 --> 02:18:32,840 Speaker 8: when that was legal to do, and the state that 2156 02:18:32,920 --> 02:18:36,080 Speaker 8: they have created is one of the most free in 2157 02:18:36,320 --> 02:18:41,280 Speaker 8: the region, whereas Azerbaijan, according to like the Freedom Index 2158 02:18:41,400 --> 02:18:44,720 Speaker 8: is one point above the Taliban controlled Afghan state at 2159 02:18:44,760 --> 02:18:48,280 Speaker 8: the moment. Yeah, so like this, this is not a plan. 2160 02:18:48,480 --> 02:18:50,880 Speaker 8: This is not like a liberation. A dictator cannot be 2161 02:18:50,920 --> 02:18:51,520 Speaker 8: a liberator. 2162 02:18:51,959 --> 02:18:54,440 Speaker 2: No, And a lot of what is happening and why 2163 02:18:54,800 --> 02:18:58,280 Speaker 2: a Zerbijan is engaging in aggression right now is due 2164 02:18:58,400 --> 02:19:00,440 Speaker 2: to what's been happening to like the price of oil 2165 02:19:00,520 --> 02:19:02,879 Speaker 2: and like what that's done to the Azari economy. Right, 2166 02:19:03,000 --> 02:19:06,320 Speaker 2: Like this is a like I mean, it's it's it's 2167 02:19:06,360 --> 02:19:09,960 Speaker 2: a pretty standard page in the the authoritarian playbook, right 2168 02:19:10,560 --> 02:19:10,959 Speaker 2: of course. 2169 02:19:11,040 --> 02:19:13,960 Speaker 8: I mean they're a classic fascist dictatorship and so far 2170 02:19:14,120 --> 02:19:17,120 Speaker 8: as you know, every problem in the state that they have, 2171 02:19:17,320 --> 02:19:20,000 Speaker 8: of which they have many, because it's effectively a kleptocracy 2172 02:19:20,080 --> 02:19:24,440 Speaker 8: built around a Petro Petro dictatorship, is caused by Armenians. 2173 02:19:24,879 --> 02:19:29,480 Speaker 8: They're you know, every single anti Asari piece that gets 2174 02:19:29,520 --> 02:19:32,080 Speaker 8: published in any media, and you can use the term 2175 02:19:32,120 --> 02:19:35,920 Speaker 8: anti Asari to mean like literally anything is funded by 2176 02:19:36,040 --> 02:19:39,200 Speaker 8: the like the Armenian lobbying group, which I mean any 2177 02:19:39,320 --> 02:19:44,000 Speaker 8: Jewish conspiracy theory that we all know and hear about constantly, 2178 02:19:44,160 --> 02:19:47,320 Speaker 8: and Azurebaijan. You just replace Jewish people with Armenians, and 2179 02:19:47,400 --> 02:19:50,080 Speaker 8: it's a it's functionally the same thing. So you know, 2180 02:19:50,200 --> 02:19:55,080 Speaker 8: we're this global superpower with our tendrils and everything, but 2181 02:19:55,200 --> 02:19:58,120 Speaker 8: also we're weak and pitifol and need to be destroyed. 2182 02:19:59,400 --> 02:20:01,959 Speaker 8: It's it's kind of messaging that we're used to hearing 2183 02:20:02,120 --> 02:20:06,600 Speaker 8: for like classic fascist propaganda, and you know that as 2184 02:20:06,640 --> 02:20:09,680 Speaker 8: far as like why they're doing it now is because 2185 02:20:09,760 --> 02:20:15,280 Speaker 8: they've so ensconced themselves in the European good graces and 2186 02:20:15,520 --> 02:20:18,160 Speaker 8: over the last little bit they know nobody could. Nobody's 2187 02:20:18,160 --> 02:20:20,880 Speaker 8: going to stop them. The EU literally can't, and the 2188 02:20:21,080 --> 02:20:24,680 Speaker 8: United States, I mean, they're an outside player when it 2189 02:20:24,720 --> 02:20:27,839 Speaker 8: comes to European politics, at least internal politics. 2190 02:20:28,240 --> 02:20:28,320 Speaker 4: And. 2191 02:20:29,800 --> 02:20:32,520 Speaker 8: They are only loosely connected to Azerbaijehan. They do some 2192 02:20:32,920 --> 02:20:36,800 Speaker 8: military funding, but it's mostly to do it's like these 2193 02:20:36,959 --> 02:20:40,800 Speaker 8: weird ghosts of the early global War on Terror where 2194 02:20:40,840 --> 02:20:44,560 Speaker 8: they're looking for friendly Muslim powers that would act as 2195 02:20:44,640 --> 02:20:49,080 Speaker 8: counter terror forces. But the Azerbaijan secular this war has 2196 02:20:49,200 --> 02:20:52,039 Speaker 8: nothing to do with us being Christian or them being Muslim, 2197 02:20:52,800 --> 02:20:55,400 Speaker 8: though it does tend to be free framed that way 2198 02:20:55,760 --> 02:20:57,560 Speaker 8: by the worst people imaginable. 2199 02:20:57,879 --> 02:21:02,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's slots conveniently for a lot of people 2200 02:21:03,080 --> 02:21:05,520 Speaker 2: into those But like this is I mean again as 2201 02:21:05,600 --> 02:21:08,280 Speaker 2: I tried, and you know, this is what we're kind 2202 02:21:08,320 --> 02:21:10,640 Speaker 2: of like throwing this together in media res but like 2203 02:21:11,280 --> 02:21:14,160 Speaker 2: this is we're talking about, like this is the result 2204 02:21:14,280 --> 02:21:17,880 Speaker 2: of a very long period of conflict and movement of 2205 02:21:18,000 --> 02:21:22,039 Speaker 2: peoples in a region where they have been for thousands 2206 02:21:22,080 --> 02:21:25,600 Speaker 2: and thousands of years, right, Like that's like, it's not. 2207 02:21:25,959 --> 02:21:29,280 Speaker 8: I would say the current conflict is mostly rooted in 2208 02:21:29,440 --> 02:21:32,600 Speaker 8: about the last thirty thirty five years, I mean the 2209 02:21:32,720 --> 02:21:35,680 Speaker 8: ancient The ancient history gets thrown around a lot by 2210 02:21:35,760 --> 02:21:39,920 Speaker 8: like propagandists. But this is a direct result of the 2211 02:21:40,040 --> 02:21:42,680 Speaker 8: Soviet Union's policies. It has nothing to do with like, 2212 02:21:43,360 --> 02:21:44,920 Speaker 8: you know, the thirteen hundreds. 2213 02:21:45,480 --> 02:21:48,880 Speaker 2: Would you take it back though, to like like World 2214 02:21:48,879 --> 02:21:51,240 Speaker 2: War One? Right where you've got You've got this like 2215 02:21:51,440 --> 02:21:55,080 Speaker 2: very brief period where like Azerbijan and Armenia and Georgia 2216 02:21:55,160 --> 02:21:58,680 Speaker 2: all attempt to have this like almost little like Caucasus 2217 02:21:58,840 --> 02:22:01,560 Speaker 2: you win or e you of their own right, and 2218 02:22:01,640 --> 02:22:04,400 Speaker 2: then they all get like gobbled up, you know, over 2219 02:22:04,480 --> 02:22:06,840 Speaker 2: the course of the end of the war, by by 2220 02:22:07,040 --> 02:22:10,840 Speaker 2: by Turkey and then by Russia. Like it's this uh, 2221 02:22:11,360 --> 02:22:13,440 Speaker 2: like that's kind of where it all results from. Right, 2222 02:22:13,480 --> 02:22:15,120 Speaker 2: That's at least that's my understanding of it. 2223 02:22:15,600 --> 02:22:17,440 Speaker 8: Uh, if you want to go back that far, it 2224 02:22:17,560 --> 02:22:22,240 Speaker 8: has more of a result of early Soviet policy and 2225 02:22:22,360 --> 02:22:25,520 Speaker 8: specifically Joseph Stalin. Before he took over the Soviet Union, 2226 02:22:25,560 --> 02:22:31,240 Speaker 8: he was ahead of like the Office of like Minorities effectively, Yeah, 2227 02:22:31,480 --> 02:22:37,600 Speaker 8: he's a Georgian. Yeah he's it's so is Barria, and 2228 02:22:38,040 --> 02:22:43,680 Speaker 8: he he redrew the borders to include what is today 2229 02:22:43,800 --> 02:22:47,280 Speaker 8: Karabak within the borders of what effectively would become the 2230 02:22:47,360 --> 02:22:51,840 Speaker 8: Azaria Soviet Socialist Republic. And during the entire period of 2231 02:22:51,879 --> 02:22:53,920 Speaker 8: the Soviet Union, which you know, a lot of people 2232 02:22:54,040 --> 02:22:57,120 Speaker 8: like to frame as this, there's no problems in the 2233 02:22:57,160 --> 02:23:00,880 Speaker 8: Soviet Union control these areas, which is you know, magical thinking. 2234 02:23:01,080 --> 02:23:04,600 Speaker 8: There were protests by the Armenian populace, right, there was 2235 02:23:04,760 --> 02:23:07,920 Speaker 8: a lot of protests during the eighties. You have what's 2236 02:23:08,000 --> 02:23:13,039 Speaker 8: called the Karabak movement wanted either a Karabak to become 2237 02:23:13,040 --> 02:23:15,920 Speaker 8: its own Soviet Socialist Republic or b to be given 2238 02:23:15,959 --> 02:23:20,000 Speaker 8: to the Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic and away from these areas, 2239 02:23:20,080 --> 02:23:23,240 Speaker 8: and failing that, they declared independence, which was within their 2240 02:23:23,360 --> 02:23:28,480 Speaker 8: rights under the Soviet constitution, which did exist, I mean, 2241 02:23:28,560 --> 02:23:31,600 Speaker 8: it was largely fluid and completely ignored as we see today, 2242 02:23:32,120 --> 02:23:35,680 Speaker 8: and that's what that triggered a lot of different programs 2243 02:23:36,160 --> 02:23:40,440 Speaker 8: between a Zaris against the Armenian population within Azerbaijan, and 2244 02:23:40,840 --> 02:23:43,640 Speaker 8: Armenians did the same thing here as well. But that 2245 02:23:43,760 --> 02:23:46,840 Speaker 8: started the First War, which ended with Armenia winning and 2246 02:23:47,080 --> 02:23:52,920 Speaker 8: Artsak becoming a de facto independent republic not recognized by 2247 02:23:52,920 --> 02:23:56,199 Speaker 8: anybody to include Armenia, and it's I mean. 2248 02:23:56,120 --> 02:23:58,120 Speaker 2: It becomes at that point kind of one of a 2249 02:23:58,320 --> 02:24:02,080 Speaker 2: series of sort of little fro and wars. During this 2250 02:24:02,720 --> 02:24:06,840 Speaker 2: kind of like early nineties period where the US was 2251 02:24:07,240 --> 02:24:09,440 Speaker 2: there was this there was some belief that the US 2252 02:24:09,480 --> 02:24:12,320 Speaker 2: would act if like these conflicts. 2253 02:24:11,800 --> 02:24:12,760 Speaker 8: Got out of hand. 2254 02:24:13,600 --> 02:24:16,400 Speaker 2: That was like often proved wrong, right, Like. 2255 02:24:16,640 --> 02:24:21,160 Speaker 8: The best comparison is effectively Kosovo. The only difference is 2256 02:24:21,280 --> 02:24:25,959 Speaker 8: that because of geopolitics, you're getting involved in this war, 2257 02:24:26,720 --> 02:24:30,160 Speaker 8: whether it be in the nineties, in twenty twenty or today, 2258 02:24:31,320 --> 02:24:37,320 Speaker 8: is it's not geopolitically advantageous, Like telling Azerbaijan to go 2259 02:24:37,400 --> 02:24:44,160 Speaker 8: fuck themselves by supporting art soccer Armenians doesn't help anybody geopolitically. 2260 02:24:45,440 --> 02:24:49,760 Speaker 8: If it was Russia invading US, it would be raining 2261 02:24:49,879 --> 02:24:53,840 Speaker 8: weapons from the West, but geopolitically doesn't benefit anybody to 2262 02:24:53,879 --> 02:24:56,920 Speaker 8: support us. And you know, like there's this concept of 2263 02:24:57,040 --> 02:25:00,320 Speaker 8: like ethics and morals from superpowers, whether it be you know, 2264 02:25:01,440 --> 02:25:04,920 Speaker 8: the bastion of democracy in the United States or this 2265 02:25:05,080 --> 02:25:07,560 Speaker 8: concept of European ethics and morals in the EU, Like 2266 02:25:07,680 --> 02:25:11,160 Speaker 8: that's all propaganda v aprior where it's not real. If 2267 02:25:11,240 --> 02:25:15,039 Speaker 8: your country is being helped by any of these countries, 2268 02:25:15,520 --> 02:25:19,359 Speaker 8: it's because it benefits the countries that are helping you geopolitically. 2269 02:25:19,560 --> 02:25:22,360 Speaker 8: It's not because of they they support whatever it is 2270 02:25:22,440 --> 02:25:26,600 Speaker 8: that you're doing, you know that, And because the Republic 2271 02:25:26,680 --> 02:25:29,520 Speaker 8: of Armenia itself is kind of in the situation as well. 2272 02:25:29,879 --> 02:25:32,600 Speaker 8: But the people of art SoC are certainly in this situation. 2273 02:25:34,120 --> 02:25:40,240 Speaker 2: And so like right now, I mean honestly, like what 2274 02:25:41,040 --> 02:25:45,520 Speaker 2: is there to do? But watch right, like is there 2275 02:25:45,800 --> 02:25:48,000 Speaker 2: is there? Do you have any kind of like hope 2276 02:25:48,080 --> 02:25:51,520 Speaker 2: for sort of positive productive action at this point or 2277 02:25:51,560 --> 02:25:54,280 Speaker 2: are we kind of stuck in this? We're going to 2278 02:25:54,360 --> 02:25:59,000 Speaker 2: see what the next chapter of this this conflict looks like, 2279 02:25:59,320 --> 02:26:00,800 Speaker 2: you know, as it rolls. 2280 02:26:00,560 --> 02:26:04,920 Speaker 8: Out here, Well, there's two options, really stop it through 2281 02:26:05,240 --> 02:26:10,320 Speaker 8: military force or let the largest genocide of the twenty 2282 02:26:10,360 --> 02:26:17,280 Speaker 8: first century go unimpeded. Right because the reason why our 2283 02:26:17,360 --> 02:26:20,120 Speaker 8: Prime minister said that the Republic of Armenia is not 2284 02:26:20,240 --> 02:26:23,240 Speaker 8: going to get involved is because it literally cannot. You know, 2285 02:26:23,360 --> 02:26:26,520 Speaker 8: we have Turkey on one border that will almost certainly 2286 02:26:26,600 --> 02:26:31,200 Speaker 8: be involved if we do. These areas also have guns 2287 02:26:31,320 --> 02:26:34,440 Speaker 8: pointed at our southern border, which they have said for 2288 02:26:34,879 --> 02:26:39,120 Speaker 8: years now they want to conquer. The Armenian military is 2289 02:26:39,480 --> 02:26:42,080 Speaker 8: not a superpower by any stretch of the imagination, and 2290 02:26:42,640 --> 02:26:46,520 Speaker 8: since we are not connected to Artsock in any feasible way, 2291 02:26:47,000 --> 02:26:49,880 Speaker 8: it would require a massive counter offensive to just relieve 2292 02:26:49,920 --> 02:26:53,080 Speaker 8: Stapanak Heart from the current siege. Right, there's a reason 2293 02:26:53,120 --> 02:26:56,440 Speaker 8: why it didn't happen when they were being starved. So 2294 02:26:57,040 --> 02:27:01,520 Speaker 8: Armenia lacks the ability to stop this. However, there's multiple 2295 02:27:01,600 --> 02:27:05,800 Speaker 8: countries in the world, mostly France and the United States, 2296 02:27:06,000 --> 02:27:08,039 Speaker 8: that could end this in five seconds if they truly 2297 02:27:08,120 --> 02:27:08,520 Speaker 8: wanted to. 2298 02:27:08,720 --> 02:27:11,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned at the start that there are US 2299 02:27:11,920 --> 02:27:15,480 Speaker 2: troops who are in Armenia right now, and I'm my 2300 02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:18,960 Speaker 2: thoughts are drawn back to in twenty nineteen when Turkey 2301 02:27:19,280 --> 02:27:22,480 Speaker 2: carried out an expanded invasion of some of the regions 2302 02:27:22,520 --> 02:27:26,360 Speaker 2: in northeast Syria that composed Rojava, and you know US 2303 02:27:26,440 --> 02:27:29,800 Speaker 2: peacekeepers pulled out previous to that. Now, the US troops 2304 02:27:29,800 --> 02:27:31,640 Speaker 2: who were in Armenia were training that were not there 2305 02:27:31,640 --> 02:27:32,560 Speaker 2: as peacekeepers. 2306 02:27:32,640 --> 02:27:35,600 Speaker 8: But right, they have no mandate to do anything, and 2307 02:27:35,720 --> 02:27:38,240 Speaker 8: there's only like two hundred of them from some national 2308 02:27:38,320 --> 02:27:39,920 Speaker 8: Guard unit. It's not like it's a you know, a 2309 02:27:39,959 --> 02:27:43,920 Speaker 8: brigade combat team, and pressure is whatever you want to 2310 02:27:43,959 --> 02:27:46,120 Speaker 8: call them are not simply not going to happen. The 2311 02:27:46,200 --> 02:27:49,080 Speaker 8: European Union is not going to sanction Azerbaijan. They rely 2312 02:27:49,240 --> 02:27:52,400 Speaker 8: on their oil and Azerbaijan has only become more powerful 2313 02:27:52,959 --> 02:27:58,000 Speaker 8: in this petro diplomacy since Russia invaded Ukraine. The United 2314 02:27:58,000 --> 02:28:03,560 Speaker 8: States has no functional sanctioning powers over Asgerbajan that could 2315 02:28:03,600 --> 02:28:06,400 Speaker 8: really affect them. And not to mention, as we've seen 2316 02:28:06,480 --> 02:28:09,320 Speaker 8: since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, sanctions don't stop wars. 2317 02:28:09,959 --> 02:28:12,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, now, I mean they never had. Like again, this 2318 02:28:12,840 --> 02:28:15,080 Speaker 2: is something that left is supposed to know right after, 2319 02:28:15,280 --> 02:28:17,840 Speaker 2: like what happened with Iraq and the nineties, But like 2320 02:28:17,959 --> 02:28:20,520 Speaker 2: they don't, they don't do anything like. 2321 02:28:20,760 --> 02:28:23,720 Speaker 8: No, Like if the only thing that stops a genocide 2322 02:28:23,760 --> 02:28:27,040 Speaker 8: is military force, and there's never been a genocide that 2323 02:28:27,120 --> 02:28:30,640 Speaker 8: has not ended from military from one actor or another, 2324 02:28:31,280 --> 02:28:31,680 Speaker 8: I might. 2325 02:28:31,640 --> 02:28:33,640 Speaker 2: Push even a little bit to say that, like one 2326 02:28:33,720 --> 02:28:36,680 Speaker 2: thing that in this case I think could potentially at 2327 02:28:36,760 --> 02:28:41,240 Speaker 2: least reduce the risk of certain kinds of genocide is 2328 02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:45,240 Speaker 2: like keeping us troops in the area, not even as 2329 02:28:45,400 --> 02:28:47,800 Speaker 2: like a viable combat force, but as a like all right, 2330 02:28:47,879 --> 02:28:50,160 Speaker 2: a zebra jen if you if you are going to 2331 02:28:50,440 --> 02:28:54,880 Speaker 2: like disrupt the territorial integrity of the actual Armenian state, 2332 02:28:56,040 --> 02:28:58,560 Speaker 2: then you know, we've got people who are in country, 2333 02:28:58,840 --> 02:29:00,879 Speaker 2: and so you'll have to you'll have. 2334 02:29:00,959 --> 02:29:03,360 Speaker 8: To kill them, you know. That's that's something that probable 2335 02:29:03,400 --> 02:29:06,200 Speaker 8: have been arguing for a long time now, not necessarily 2336 02:29:06,280 --> 02:29:11,360 Speaker 8: Americans exactly, but some kind of international peacekeeping mission, because 2337 02:29:11,400 --> 02:29:14,160 Speaker 8: we all knew that what Russia was doing, like this 2338 02:29:14,400 --> 02:29:18,840 Speaker 8: war benefits them as the previous instability in the region 2339 02:29:19,360 --> 02:29:22,000 Speaker 8: benefits them, because it allows them to have their hooks 2340 02:29:22,080 --> 02:29:25,320 Speaker 8: into Armenia. Which is why we're kind of worried of 2341 02:29:25,400 --> 02:29:30,360 Speaker 8: what happens next here because if Azerbaijan does complete the 2342 02:29:30,480 --> 02:29:34,680 Speaker 8: conquest of stapanic Herit, which unless someone gets involved, they will, 2343 02:29:35,040 --> 02:29:36,960 Speaker 8: they need to be like I need to be practical 2344 02:29:37,000 --> 02:29:43,520 Speaker 8: about these things, and once that happens, Russia won't have 2345 02:29:43,680 --> 02:29:46,560 Speaker 8: the sort of damicles hanging over the Republic of Armenia's 2346 02:29:46,560 --> 02:29:50,800 Speaker 8: head anymore. So it does make it does make us 2347 02:29:50,879 --> 02:29:54,680 Speaker 8: wonder like and everybody is very very stupid if they 2348 02:29:54,720 --> 02:29:59,440 Speaker 8: Thinkbaijan stops with art suck right that in September of 2349 02:29:59,520 --> 02:30:01,440 Speaker 8: last year when I was on your show, they were 2350 02:30:01,480 --> 02:30:04,600 Speaker 8: invading the Republic of Armenia. They were not invading Karabaker arts. 2351 02:30:04,840 --> 02:30:08,320 Speaker 8: They were invading the Republic of Armenia. And their stated 2352 02:30:08,360 --> 02:30:11,560 Speaker 8: goals have not changed. The only thing that would happen 2353 02:30:12,840 --> 02:30:15,560 Speaker 8: is that this thorn in their side over the last 2354 02:30:15,680 --> 02:30:18,200 Speaker 8: thirty years would not be there anymore. They would have 2355 02:30:18,360 --> 02:30:23,039 Speaker 8: no impediments at all within what is considered their own borders. 2356 02:30:23,560 --> 02:30:26,280 Speaker 8: They could focus everything on the Republic of Armenia. So 2357 02:30:26,760 --> 02:30:30,280 Speaker 8: people who believe that this ends in stapanic Hert like 2358 02:30:31,120 --> 02:30:33,400 Speaker 8: You'll only have to go back to this time last 2359 02:30:33,520 --> 02:30:36,400 Speaker 8: year to see that is not the case. The only 2360 02:30:36,520 --> 02:30:38,920 Speaker 8: thing that's going to happen is maybe they'll take a 2361 02:30:38,920 --> 02:30:41,160 Speaker 8: little bit of time. The war is coming to Armenia. 2362 02:30:41,480 --> 02:30:45,000 Speaker 8: This massacre will come across our borders. It's only a 2363 02:30:45,080 --> 02:30:47,760 Speaker 8: matter of is it one year, two years, three years? 2364 02:30:47,879 --> 02:30:51,440 Speaker 8: That that's the only thing. So without some kind of 2365 02:30:51,640 --> 02:30:58,280 Speaker 8: immediate intervention, this slaughter will continue until they're defeated. That 2366 02:30:58,760 --> 02:31:01,960 Speaker 8: you don't negotiate with people who want to murder you. 2367 02:31:02,160 --> 02:31:02,960 Speaker 8: It's impossible. 2368 02:31:03,480 --> 02:31:07,080 Speaker 2: No you can't. And it's it's also this is a 2369 02:31:07,200 --> 02:31:10,760 Speaker 2: very dangerous situation in part because like the reason why 2370 02:31:10,920 --> 02:31:13,720 Speaker 2: Armenia is acting now, right, and part is because you know, 2371 02:31:13,800 --> 02:31:17,360 Speaker 2: they have been watching and I think like keying and 2372 02:31:17,920 --> 02:31:22,200 Speaker 2: like sort of editing their behavior as a result of 2373 02:31:22,280 --> 02:31:24,560 Speaker 2: how the Russian campaign in Ukraine has gone. 2374 02:31:24,720 --> 02:31:27,440 Speaker 8: Right. Yeah, they definitely see it as a way to 2375 02:31:27,480 --> 02:31:29,440 Speaker 8: get away from Russia. I mean, like, yeah, like any 2376 02:31:29,640 --> 02:31:32,680 Speaker 8: small state in Russia's sphere is doing right now, with 2377 02:31:32,760 --> 02:31:35,040 Speaker 8: the exception of Georgia, who's kind of doing the opposite. 2378 02:31:35,440 --> 02:31:38,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they there is this, I mean, one of 2379 02:31:38,360 --> 02:31:41,040 Speaker 2: the things that is really unsettling right now is there 2380 02:31:41,160 --> 02:31:44,520 Speaker 2: is this there has been kind of a freeze and 2381 02:31:44,640 --> 02:31:47,320 Speaker 2: a number of conflicts around the world that we have 2382 02:31:47,480 --> 02:31:51,200 Speaker 2: seen thawing out for the last really the last five 2383 02:31:51,280 --> 02:31:54,960 Speaker 2: six years. It's been particularly like accelerating this kind of 2384 02:31:55,120 --> 02:31:58,000 Speaker 2: like thaw in a bunch of these old frozen conflicts. 2385 02:31:58,680 --> 02:32:01,960 Speaker 2: And part of why is that there's this understanding by 2386 02:32:01,959 --> 02:32:04,520 Speaker 2: a lot of these regional powers that like, well, if 2387 02:32:04,560 --> 02:32:07,240 Speaker 2: I kicked the fucking door and nobody's coming after. 2388 02:32:07,080 --> 02:32:11,240 Speaker 8: Me, right, And Azerbaijan understands that to a certain extent, 2389 02:32:11,360 --> 02:32:13,560 Speaker 8: which is why they acted the way they acted last 2390 02:32:13,640 --> 02:32:16,480 Speaker 8: year in September. I mean, the CSTO is a joke, 2391 02:32:17,040 --> 02:32:20,880 Speaker 8: but it does have a mutual defense clause, just like 2392 02:32:21,120 --> 02:32:24,760 Speaker 8: NATO does. So invasion of our borders should have triggered it, 2393 02:32:25,080 --> 02:32:27,760 Speaker 8: and that was if people had some kind of not 2394 02:32:28,040 --> 02:32:31,480 Speaker 8: sure if Russia could commit to other things. That's meanted 2395 02:32:31,560 --> 02:32:34,400 Speaker 8: it for a lot of people. It'smitted it for Armenia specifically. 2396 02:32:34,840 --> 02:32:38,359 Speaker 8: I mean, we're still technically legal members of that alliance, 2397 02:32:38,640 --> 02:32:41,160 Speaker 8: but we have no representation in anymore. We don't take 2398 02:32:41,240 --> 02:32:44,359 Speaker 8: part in trainings, we don't go to meetings. We're functionally 2399 02:32:44,440 --> 02:32:47,520 Speaker 8: out of it, and we certainly will be after this, 2400 02:32:47,720 --> 02:32:52,920 Speaker 8: I believe. But I mean as an example of how 2401 02:32:53,000 --> 02:32:56,320 Speaker 8: you can't really negotiate with someone with this kind of 2402 02:32:56,360 --> 02:33:00,440 Speaker 8: ideology in so far as from this position, like I'm 2403 02:33:00,480 --> 02:33:03,640 Speaker 8: not saying that like this only ends with international peacekeepers 2404 02:33:03,720 --> 02:33:07,320 Speaker 8: hoisting a flag over Blak Whuy with this kind of 2405 02:33:07,440 --> 02:33:11,520 Speaker 8: power discrepancy that the Azaria government has said that they 2406 02:33:11,600 --> 02:33:16,959 Speaker 8: will negotiate with the government in Stepankert in Karabak once 2407 02:33:17,080 --> 02:33:20,720 Speaker 8: they dissolve and lay down all their weapons. So once 2408 02:33:20,760 --> 02:33:23,280 Speaker 8: you completely disarm and get rid of all of the 2409 02:33:23,360 --> 02:33:26,200 Speaker 8: ways you can defend yourself from the obvious slaughter that's 2410 02:33:26,280 --> 02:33:29,920 Speaker 8: coming your way. Then we'll talk. Is that really a way? 2411 02:33:30,240 --> 02:33:33,920 Speaker 8: Is that a way of any negotiations could ever happen? 2412 02:33:34,320 --> 02:33:37,520 Speaker 8: Like being realistic, of course it's not. The government of 2413 02:33:37,600 --> 02:33:40,120 Speaker 8: kara Bak is the only thing. The government of Karabak 2414 02:33:40,200 --> 02:33:45,000 Speaker 8: and the small local self defense force is the only 2415 02:33:45,160 --> 02:33:50,760 Speaker 8: negotiating like little crumb that they have because it's it's 2416 02:33:50,840 --> 02:33:53,560 Speaker 8: stopping them from being murdered. And for people who think 2417 02:33:53,600 --> 02:33:58,080 Speaker 8: I'm being like I'm overreacting or something, look at how 2418 02:33:58,120 --> 02:34:01,160 Speaker 8: they treated that. Any Armenians villions that fell into their 2419 02:34:01,240 --> 02:34:04,640 Speaker 8: hands into the twenty twenty war. They cut off their ears, 2420 02:34:04,760 --> 02:34:06,600 Speaker 8: they cut off their fingers, they cut off their noses. 2421 02:34:06,640 --> 02:34:09,240 Speaker 8: They fucking beheaded them. It was like watching Isis videos. 2422 02:34:09,280 --> 02:34:12,800 Speaker 8: But they're wearing multiicam and wearing fast helmets and they 2423 02:34:12,879 --> 02:34:15,920 Speaker 8: publish them proudly on the internet. They're not ashamed of this. 2424 02:34:16,840 --> 02:34:18,760 Speaker 8: You can only imagine what happens when a city of 2425 02:34:18,800 --> 02:34:21,680 Speaker 8: one hundred thousand people falls into their hands, and that 2426 02:34:21,840 --> 02:34:24,119 Speaker 8: is more so than nineteen forties. 2427 02:34:24,160 --> 02:34:26,760 Speaker 2: Something around like yeah, about one hundred, one hundred and 2428 02:34:26,760 --> 02:34:29,120 Speaker 2: twenty thousand people who are who are still there. 2429 02:34:30,040 --> 02:34:34,040 Speaker 8: Our media cannot solve this problem. We do not have 2430 02:34:34,440 --> 02:34:37,720 Speaker 8: the power to force them to the negotiation table to 2431 02:34:37,879 --> 02:34:42,920 Speaker 8: guarantee the rights of existence for people where they live. 2432 02:34:43,840 --> 02:34:47,520 Speaker 8: The countries that do are now friends with the country 2433 02:34:47,840 --> 02:34:52,120 Speaker 8: that is doing it, So it requires some actual diplomatic spine. 2434 02:34:52,640 --> 02:34:55,080 Speaker 8: And the thing is, you know, the joke is, every 2435 02:34:55,120 --> 02:34:57,480 Speaker 8: time someone is deeply concerned about something, you take a 2436 02:34:57,600 --> 02:35:01,440 Speaker 8: drink and then you don't fucking alcoholism, But you can't say, 2437 02:35:01,560 --> 02:35:04,600 Speaker 8: you know, we call for an immediate cease of the 2438 02:35:04,800 --> 02:35:08,600 Speaker 8: of the military offensive without an or or like or 2439 02:35:08,680 --> 02:35:12,600 Speaker 8: what or fucking what? Like what are you doing? 2440 02:35:12,720 --> 02:35:12,760 Speaker 4: Like? 2441 02:35:13,879 --> 02:35:18,480 Speaker 8: You can't use strong words to stop a fucking ballistic missile. Yeah, 2442 02:35:19,080 --> 02:35:20,200 Speaker 8: there needs to be an ore. 2443 02:35:20,879 --> 02:35:23,640 Speaker 2: We're staring at about a century since we had a 2444 02:35:23,760 --> 02:35:28,119 Speaker 2: series of conflicts, many of which were based around different 2445 02:35:28,240 --> 02:35:33,039 Speaker 2: sort of like regional powers scapegoating and then carrying out 2446 02:35:33,120 --> 02:35:37,160 Speaker 2: acts of tremendous violence against groups of people, including specifically 2447 02:35:37,240 --> 02:35:38,000 Speaker 2: the Armenians. 2448 02:35:39,680 --> 02:35:42,480 Speaker 8: Like a tale as old as time. It's being treated 2449 02:35:42,520 --> 02:35:45,280 Speaker 8: as an anti terror operation and you can go back 2450 02:35:45,320 --> 02:35:49,000 Speaker 8: to nineteen thirteen during the Genosid, the first genocide, and 2451 02:35:49,520 --> 02:35:51,959 Speaker 8: it's the same exact excuse the Ottoman Empire. 2452 02:35:51,760 --> 02:35:55,160 Speaker 2: Used, well, and it's being treated you know, that's how 2453 02:35:55,240 --> 02:35:57,520 Speaker 2: the Azaris are excusing it. But over here, like when 2454 02:35:57,520 --> 02:36:00,000 Speaker 2: you're talking about like US politics or about Western policy, 2455 02:36:00,360 --> 02:36:03,440 Speaker 2: it's it's it's a thing that's happening over there, right, 2456 02:36:03,560 --> 02:36:06,160 Speaker 2: Like it's a couple of countries that most people don't 2457 02:36:06,200 --> 02:36:10,080 Speaker 2: know very much about, and like what is what is 2458 02:36:10,160 --> 02:36:12,360 Speaker 2: our Why are we involved in this? And it's like, well, 2459 02:36:12,959 --> 02:36:16,360 Speaker 2: because this is the thing that we said, like after 2460 02:36:17,000 --> 02:36:21,800 Speaker 2: one hundred something million people died, the idea that we 2461 02:36:22,160 --> 02:36:24,560 Speaker 2: all kind of came together with was, well, we should 2462 02:36:24,560 --> 02:36:27,760 Speaker 2: probably stop folks from doing some of the things that 2463 02:36:27,879 --> 02:36:29,560 Speaker 2: led to all of those terrible wars. 2464 02:36:29,879 --> 02:36:32,320 Speaker 8: And we just tell people frame it as, oh, those 2465 02:36:32,360 --> 02:36:33,720 Speaker 8: people have just been fighting forever. 2466 02:36:34,200 --> 02:36:36,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, we haven't. 2467 02:36:37,160 --> 02:36:42,000 Speaker 8: It's been within my lifetime. Like I'm thirty five years old. 2468 02:36:42,120 --> 02:36:43,600 Speaker 8: This war is not older than i am. 2469 02:36:44,120 --> 02:36:48,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there was not always mass violence between like 2470 02:36:48,720 --> 02:36:52,279 Speaker 2: the people in this region, right, Like Azeris and Armenians 2471 02:36:52,320 --> 02:36:55,520 Speaker 2: have not been killing each other over Artsak for thousands 2472 02:36:55,560 --> 02:36:59,200 Speaker 2: of years, right, Like that's of course there's Armenians and 2473 02:36:59,280 --> 02:37:01,200 Speaker 2: is Olds. 2474 02:37:01,560 --> 02:37:04,440 Speaker 8: Yeah, they used to live next to one another. We're 2475 02:37:04,440 --> 02:37:09,880 Speaker 8: not intractable millennia long enemy. But isn't this isn't one 2476 02:37:09,879 --> 02:37:12,360 Speaker 8: of those conflicts that I mean, you shouldn't do that 2477 02:37:12,440 --> 02:37:15,600 Speaker 8: with any conflict because it's a scapegoat to get you 2478 02:37:15,640 --> 02:37:19,080 Speaker 8: to stop caring and educating yourself about it. But specifically 2479 02:37:19,400 --> 02:37:22,120 Speaker 8: in the context of this episode, certainly not this conflict. 2480 02:37:22,160 --> 02:37:27,000 Speaker 8: This conflict involves very recent events. Yeah, and it's it's 2481 02:37:27,120 --> 02:37:30,560 Speaker 8: tied to major geopolitical events happening in the world right 2482 02:37:30,640 --> 02:37:33,200 Speaker 8: now that whatever country that you're living in and listening to, 2483 02:37:33,320 --> 02:37:34,440 Speaker 8: your country is involved in. 2484 02:37:35,280 --> 02:37:39,720 Speaker 2: And it's I mean, like the the the actual as 2485 02:37:39,760 --> 02:37:42,160 Speaker 2: far as I can see that the actual like realistic 2486 02:37:42,280 --> 02:37:44,240 Speaker 2: solution here, because this is not a case, right, I 2487 02:37:44,280 --> 02:37:47,600 Speaker 2: don't think like shipping a bunch of fucking weapons is 2488 02:37:47,840 --> 02:37:51,800 Speaker 2: a realistic thing to hope for. Like the actual realistic 2489 02:37:52,160 --> 02:37:56,520 Speaker 2: case for stopping this is putting people in the country 2490 02:37:57,160 --> 02:38:01,000 Speaker 2: that uh provide some sort of like barrier to a 2491 02:38:01,080 --> 02:38:04,360 Speaker 2: Zeri aggression, right, Like that's like it's taking action we 2492 02:38:05,320 --> 02:38:08,920 Speaker 2: saying that we did for Kosovo. Yes, yes, that's exactly 2493 02:38:09,000 --> 02:38:12,320 Speaker 2: what we need without without any kind of negotiations or 2494 02:38:12,440 --> 02:38:15,760 Speaker 2: debates like that is the only thing that will stop 2495 02:38:15,879 --> 02:38:19,240 Speaker 2: what is coming. It's not an if like and this 2496 02:38:19,480 --> 02:38:23,200 Speaker 2: is coming and hey online left people, you know, the 2497 02:38:23,280 --> 02:38:27,360 Speaker 2: Azaris are buy in Israeli arms. Like this is a 2498 02:38:27,760 --> 02:38:31,080 Speaker 2: situation in which, like we're not talking about we don't 2499 02:38:31,120 --> 02:38:34,119 Speaker 2: need we don't need guys kicking indoors. We literally need 2500 02:38:34,320 --> 02:38:40,680 Speaker 2: dudes standing around to create a barrier by the sheer 2501 02:38:40,800 --> 02:38:43,680 Speaker 2: political fact of their existence, right, that's. 2502 02:38:43,640 --> 02:38:45,680 Speaker 8: All it takes. And not to mention if you're trying 2503 02:38:45,680 --> 02:38:49,680 Speaker 8: to frame this in like an anti imperialist context or whatever, 2504 02:38:50,000 --> 02:38:55,480 Speaker 8: Agebajon is literally a fascist fucking dictatorship. Like, yeah, and 2505 02:38:55,760 --> 02:38:58,160 Speaker 8: our media, we have our problems, car Bock. They have 2506 02:38:58,280 --> 02:39:03,040 Speaker 8: their problems, you know, but they're functioning representative democracies and 2507 02:39:03,840 --> 02:39:07,120 Speaker 8: with people in land that they've lived on. It's I mean, 2508 02:39:07,160 --> 02:39:09,120 Speaker 8: there are other people who are indigenous to that land 2509 02:39:09,160 --> 02:39:13,480 Speaker 8: as well, but it's also theirs. It's if you want 2510 02:39:13,520 --> 02:39:15,840 Speaker 8: to think of it in that way, which I don't 2511 02:39:15,879 --> 02:39:19,160 Speaker 8: really like to do because it's it's dirt. But the 2512 02:39:19,800 --> 02:39:24,120 Speaker 8: real issue here is the people. The people's lives are like, 2513 02:39:24,240 --> 02:39:27,120 Speaker 8: it doesn't fucking matter who controls TOPONICRT at the end 2514 02:39:27,200 --> 02:39:29,240 Speaker 8: of the day, if people are allowed to live there 2515 02:39:29,360 --> 02:39:31,400 Speaker 8: and live their lives in dignity, in the way that 2516 02:39:31,480 --> 02:39:34,520 Speaker 8: they choose to live them. Yeah, but that's not going 2517 02:39:34,600 --> 02:39:41,039 Speaker 8: to happen if the fascist dictatorship's genocidal armies come storming through, right. 2518 02:39:41,200 --> 02:39:43,600 Speaker 8: It's it's simply impossible. And that's one of the main 2519 02:39:43,760 --> 02:39:49,440 Speaker 8: reasons why Karabak Armenians and the Armenian State as well, 2520 02:39:49,800 --> 02:39:53,960 Speaker 8: has continuously said that Karabak can't exist within the frameworks 2521 02:39:54,000 --> 02:39:58,879 Speaker 8: of the Azari Republic because the Azari Republic is demonstrously 2522 02:40:00,000 --> 02:40:03,520 Speaker 8: anti Armenian. Like, for instance, if you have an Armenian 2523 02:40:03,640 --> 02:40:06,440 Speaker 8: surname like I do, you can't even go there. It 2524 02:40:06,480 --> 02:40:08,959 Speaker 8: doesn't even matter if you've even been to this country 2525 02:40:09,120 --> 02:40:12,199 Speaker 8: or not. Simply existing is enough to be denied entry, 2526 02:40:12,879 --> 02:40:15,760 Speaker 8: Like it's it's not a place. I mean, if you 2527 02:40:15,800 --> 02:40:17,200 Speaker 8: want to see how they'll be treated, look how they 2528 02:40:17,240 --> 02:40:21,200 Speaker 8: treat their own fucking people. Yeah, it's like asking anyone 2529 02:40:21,280 --> 02:40:23,960 Speaker 8: to be liberated by the fucking forces of North Korea 2530 02:40:24,200 --> 02:40:28,720 Speaker 8: or Saudi Arabia or something. It's obscene, it's absurd. The 2531 02:40:29,120 --> 02:40:32,320 Speaker 8: only thing that like, and I'm not saying I support 2532 02:40:32,440 --> 02:40:35,000 Speaker 8: the government in Armenia as any as anybody who knows me. 2533 02:40:35,040 --> 02:40:39,880 Speaker 8: I don't support any government, but the only constant track 2534 02:40:39,959 --> 02:40:44,039 Speaker 8: they've had is we support their right for self determination, 2535 02:40:44,400 --> 02:40:48,240 Speaker 8: as anybody should. And they voted in the eighties to 2536 02:40:48,400 --> 02:40:51,080 Speaker 8: be on their own, not to be part of Armenia, 2537 02:40:51,160 --> 02:40:52,720 Speaker 8: not to be part of Andrewijan, but to be the 2538 02:40:52,760 --> 02:40:55,720 Speaker 8: republic of art SoC because they're the only people who 2539 02:40:55,879 --> 02:40:58,280 Speaker 8: care about their own rights, their own dignity, and their 2540 02:40:58,320 --> 02:41:02,560 Speaker 8: own right to existence. That's all anybody should ever defend 2541 02:41:02,879 --> 02:41:06,800 Speaker 8: is people's rights to do that. Yeah, and ever since, 2542 02:41:06,879 --> 02:41:09,840 Speaker 8: they've made a functioning state with free and fair elections, 2543 02:41:09,959 --> 02:41:14,080 Speaker 8: ministries that handle these things, ministries of health, ministries of defense, 2544 02:41:14,560 --> 02:41:19,240 Speaker 8: ministries of education. It's a functioning republic. It's not some 2545 02:41:19,480 --> 02:41:26,040 Speaker 8: statelet that barely functions. And the powers invading it don't 2546 02:41:26,080 --> 02:41:29,800 Speaker 8: only mean to destroy those the separatist power, they mean 2547 02:41:29,879 --> 02:41:33,840 Speaker 8: to destroy the people that live there. There's no room 2548 02:41:33,879 --> 02:41:35,440 Speaker 8: for them to exist in this country. 2549 02:41:36,800 --> 02:41:39,720 Speaker 2: So, Joe, what do you expect us to see coming 2550 02:41:39,800 --> 02:41:42,160 Speaker 2: in the next couple of days here? As we you know, 2551 02:41:42,240 --> 02:41:46,360 Speaker 2: we're about twenty four hours in right now to the 2552 02:41:47,879 --> 02:41:51,680 Speaker 2: renewed a Zeri attack on art Sock, Like, what is 2553 02:41:51,720 --> 02:41:53,879 Speaker 2: your kind of expectation for what happens next. 2554 02:41:55,320 --> 02:41:58,240 Speaker 8: Well, the art sock defense armies doing their best. Yeah, 2555 02:41:58,320 --> 02:42:01,879 Speaker 8: I mean, obviously they're fighting as hard as they possibly can. However, 2556 02:42:02,680 --> 02:42:08,279 Speaker 8: without immediate international intervention in some capacity, I mean physical intervention, 2557 02:42:08,879 --> 02:42:12,480 Speaker 8: a you will stop or this will occur type situation, 2558 02:42:13,040 --> 02:42:17,360 Speaker 8: it's only a matter of time until it ends. Yeah, yeah, 2559 02:42:18,040 --> 02:42:21,240 Speaker 8: I think that's And to quote the former head of 2560 02:42:21,280 --> 02:42:25,360 Speaker 8: Doctors without Borders, you cannot stop a genocide with doctors. Yeah, 2561 02:42:26,040 --> 02:42:28,000 Speaker 8: there's only one way to stop it. And you know, 2562 02:42:28,240 --> 02:42:30,680 Speaker 8: like I've said a million times before, I believe before 2563 02:42:30,760 --> 02:42:34,960 Speaker 8: on your show, Yep, the only thing that's allowing this 2564 02:42:35,080 --> 02:42:39,960 Speaker 8: to go on is the unwillingness of literally anybody to 2565 02:42:40,040 --> 02:42:44,640 Speaker 8: get involved. And there's a couple of quotes about that. Yeah, exactly. 2566 02:42:45,400 --> 02:42:47,080 Speaker 8: It's it's not a new concept. 2567 02:42:47,520 --> 02:42:47,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 2568 02:42:47,959 --> 02:42:49,879 Speaker 2: And genide studies. 2569 02:42:50,160 --> 02:42:52,960 Speaker 8: As someone who studies war, studies genocide and has fought 2570 02:42:53,000 --> 02:42:54,959 Speaker 8: in war, war is fucking awful. And I don't want 2571 02:42:54,959 --> 02:42:57,360 Speaker 8: it for anybody. I don't want a Zeri kids to 2572 02:42:57,640 --> 02:43:00,879 Speaker 8: conscripts to be fucking dying for this, don't want Armenians 2573 02:43:00,920 --> 02:43:04,039 Speaker 8: to be dying for this. But the only thing that's 2574 02:43:04,080 --> 02:43:06,640 Speaker 8: going to stop it is someone who is not Armenian, 2575 02:43:06,879 --> 02:43:09,320 Speaker 8: not his area, and certainly not fucking Russian to say 2576 02:43:09,520 --> 02:43:14,360 Speaker 8: stop or we will fucking stop it. Yep. 2577 02:43:15,320 --> 02:43:16,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's. 2578 02:43:18,560 --> 02:43:21,400 Speaker 2: I think that's as as good a point to close 2579 02:43:21,480 --> 02:43:24,879 Speaker 2: on as there is as we're going to find. At least, Joe, 2580 02:43:24,959 --> 02:43:26,480 Speaker 2: do you have anything else you wanted to kind of 2581 02:43:26,520 --> 02:43:28,520 Speaker 2: like bring up before we roll out here? 2582 02:43:31,680 --> 02:43:33,920 Speaker 8: I would. I would. This is normally where I would 2583 02:43:33,959 --> 02:43:37,120 Speaker 8: say you could support the people involved in this in 2584 02:43:37,160 --> 02:43:41,199 Speaker 8: this way, but unfortunately, there's they're under siege, they're surrounded, 2585 02:43:41,360 --> 02:43:44,879 Speaker 8: nothing can get to them. There's I got nothing, man. 2586 02:43:45,800 --> 02:43:48,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that that is the reality, right, It's 2587 02:43:48,879 --> 02:43:51,440 Speaker 2: like there's nowhere to send money, there's nothing to like, 2588 02:43:51,920 --> 02:43:54,440 Speaker 2: and to be quite frank, I mean, I think people 2589 02:43:54,480 --> 02:43:59,360 Speaker 2: should be harassing their their representatives over this. But you know, 2590 02:43:59,480 --> 02:44:04,200 Speaker 2: I'm not overly optimistic. Yeah, the Biden administration has been 2591 02:44:04,240 --> 02:44:07,000 Speaker 2: making noises, you know, but but I you know, I 2592 02:44:07,160 --> 02:44:09,080 Speaker 2: have not seen evidence that they're going to do more 2593 02:44:09,120 --> 02:44:09,680 Speaker 2: than that yet. 2594 02:44:09,800 --> 02:44:13,240 Speaker 8: So I will say, if the United States gets involved 2595 02:44:13,360 --> 02:44:15,640 Speaker 8: and they really want to turn Armenia to the West, 2596 02:44:15,640 --> 02:44:18,160 Speaker 8: which they absolutely should, there's no better time like now, 2597 02:44:19,320 --> 02:44:20,240 Speaker 8: this is the chance. 2598 02:44:20,320 --> 02:44:20,640 Speaker 9: To do it. 2599 02:44:21,160 --> 02:44:24,120 Speaker 8: You want to show that like the West is the 2600 02:44:24,200 --> 02:44:27,879 Speaker 8: way for Armenians and pull them completely away from Russia 2601 02:44:27,879 --> 02:44:29,959 Speaker 8: because everybody wants to get the fuck away from Russia. 2602 02:44:30,280 --> 02:44:32,720 Speaker 8: Like there. Yeah, there's thousands of people marching down the 2603 02:44:32,760 --> 02:44:37,640 Speaker 8: street literally saying fuck Russia yesterday. But you need to 2604 02:44:37,720 --> 02:44:39,760 Speaker 8: give them a path to do so, and this is 2605 02:44:39,800 --> 02:44:40,400 Speaker 8: the way to do it. 2606 02:44:41,160 --> 02:44:41,360 Speaker 5: Yeah. 2607 02:44:42,800 --> 02:44:48,000 Speaker 2: Well shit, thanks Joe. Sorry, sorry, we keep having you 2608 02:44:48,120 --> 02:44:52,240 Speaker 2: on the show and this, uh, this situation. I uh well, 2609 02:44:53,160 --> 02:44:55,080 Speaker 2: we'll come on and talk about something. 2610 02:44:55,520 --> 02:44:55,880 Speaker 8: I don't know. 2611 02:44:56,040 --> 02:44:56,840 Speaker 2: We probably won't. 2612 02:44:57,520 --> 02:44:59,240 Speaker 8: Neither of our shows ever talk about anything. 2613 02:45:00,080 --> 02:45:01,000 Speaker 5: About anything lighthearted. 2614 02:45:02,200 --> 02:45:05,240 Speaker 2: Check out Joe's show Lions Led by Donkeys, The Lions 2615 02:45:05,320 --> 02:45:10,400 Speaker 2: lad by Donkey's podcast Great Military History Podcast. Joe, thank 2616 02:45:10,440 --> 02:45:17,000 Speaker 2: you for being on, and please, I don't know, good luck. 2617 02:45:17,680 --> 02:45:18,440 Speaker 8: Thanks for having me on. 2618 02:45:18,600 --> 02:45:30,880 Speaker 5: Rob Hi everyone, it's me James. And just before you 2619 02:45:30,959 --> 02:45:33,000 Speaker 5: hear the episode, i'd want to warn you that you 2620 02:45:33,120 --> 02:45:38,280 Speaker 5: can hear our telephones going absolutely mental for much of 2621 02:45:38,360 --> 02:45:41,480 Speaker 5: this episode. That's because as we were recording, people have 2622 02:45:41,560 --> 02:45:45,200 Speaker 5: found out that SDG and E San Diego gast Electric 2623 02:45:45,280 --> 02:45:48,160 Speaker 5: were restricting access to one of the sites where migrants 2624 02:45:48,200 --> 02:45:51,480 Speaker 5: were in need of aid, and people were very concerned 2625 02:45:51,520 --> 02:45:54,680 Speaker 5: about that, so they were reaching out to James and 2626 02:45:54,760 --> 02:45:58,160 Speaker 5: Jacqueline and Pedro to ask for assistance and to me 2627 02:45:58,280 --> 02:45:59,600 Speaker 5: to let me know if I could get the word out. 2628 02:46:00,240 --> 02:46:02,920 Speaker 5: That's why you can hear our phones going crazy, and 2629 02:46:03,000 --> 02:46:05,520 Speaker 5: I think it's good that it's in there in a 2630 02:46:05,600 --> 02:46:07,680 Speaker 5: sense because perhaps you can get a sense of how 2631 02:46:07,800 --> 02:46:13,240 Speaker 5: mad the last few weeks have been for everyone. Our 2632 02:46:13,280 --> 02:46:15,280 Speaker 5: phone's constantly be going off. I'm sure mine a lot 2633 02:46:15,400 --> 02:46:18,520 Speaker 5: less than James and Jacquelines and Pedros because people are 2634 02:46:18,600 --> 02:46:21,039 Speaker 5: overwhelmed and they need more help than we're able to give. 2635 02:46:21,160 --> 02:46:24,320 Speaker 5: So consider that background noise a blessing and I hope 2636 02:46:24,360 --> 02:46:32,400 Speaker 5: you enjoyed the episode. Thanks. Hi everyone, It's me James 2637 02:46:32,920 --> 02:46:35,280 Speaker 5: today and I hear again to talk about the border today. 2638 02:46:35,320 --> 02:46:38,720 Speaker 5: I'm joined by some guests. I'm joined by James and 2639 02:46:38,840 --> 02:46:41,280 Speaker 5: Jacqueline from Border Kindness, who we've heard from before, and 2640 02:46:41,320 --> 02:46:44,000 Speaker 5: I'm also joined by Pedro Rias from the American Friends 2641 02:46:44,040 --> 02:46:46,440 Speaker 5: Service Committee. If you guys would like to introduce yourselves 2642 02:46:46,440 --> 02:46:49,440 Speaker 5: and explain the kind of role you play along the border, 2643 02:46:49,480 --> 02:46:52,119 Speaker 5: that'd be wonderful if we start with Pedro, because folks 2644 02:46:52,120 --> 02:46:53,720 Speaker 5: haven't heard from him before. That would be great. 2645 02:46:54,560 --> 02:46:57,280 Speaker 11: Great, Thank you, James, and it's such an honor to 2646 02:46:57,360 --> 02:47:00,440 Speaker 11: be on the show together with folks from Border Kindness. 2647 02:47:00,520 --> 02:47:03,880 Speaker 11: James and Jacqueline's great to see you again. My name 2648 02:47:03,920 --> 02:47:06,080 Speaker 11: is Pedro Rio. I'm director of the American Friends Service 2649 02:47:06,120 --> 02:47:09,480 Speaker 11: Committee US Mexico Border Program, which is a Quaker based 2650 02:47:09,520 --> 02:47:13,400 Speaker 11: human rights organization. I've been on staff now for twenty 2651 02:47:13,480 --> 02:47:17,440 Speaker 11: years working in San Diego on border issues, and it's 2652 02:47:18,080 --> 02:47:21,920 Speaker 11: been a whirldwind of two decades of work being able 2653 02:47:22,000 --> 02:47:27,160 Speaker 11: to follow this topic. Our work primarily focuses on border issues, 2654 02:47:27,200 --> 02:47:32,120 Speaker 11: and we have four components, one of which is documenting 2655 02:47:32,200 --> 02:47:35,960 Speaker 11: civil and human rights abuses that occur when contact goes 2656 02:47:36,320 --> 02:47:44,320 Speaker 11: awry between primarily federal immigration authorities with members of civil society, 2657 02:47:44,320 --> 02:47:50,360 Speaker 11: including migrants and border community residents. Documentation could be case 2658 02:47:50,760 --> 02:47:58,600 Speaker 11: evolving abuse of practices, abuse of policies, cases evolving abuse 2659 02:47:58,600 --> 02:48:01,119 Speaker 11: of authority, and so on and so forth. We also 2660 02:48:01,160 --> 02:48:04,800 Speaker 11: do a lot of policy analysis and advocacy at the 2661 02:48:04,840 --> 02:48:07,320 Speaker 11: local level, at the state level, and at the federal level, 2662 02:48:08,959 --> 02:48:14,119 Speaker 11: trying to hold agencies accountable, making them more transparent, ensuring 2663 02:48:14,200 --> 02:48:18,760 Speaker 11: that there are oversight mechanisms and how they operate, and 2664 02:48:18,840 --> 02:48:25,039 Speaker 11: that's done in conjunction with several coalitions at the county 2665 02:48:25,200 --> 02:48:28,760 Speaker 11: wide level in San Diego, but also at the national 2666 02:48:28,840 --> 02:48:32,840 Speaker 11: level with the Southern Border Communities Coalition and other organizations 2667 02:48:32,879 --> 02:48:33,200 Speaker 11: as well. 2668 02:48:34,080 --> 02:48:34,800 Speaker 4: And then we. 2669 02:48:36,560 --> 02:48:40,519 Speaker 11: Obviously work in allyship with a lot of other organizations 2670 02:48:40,600 --> 02:48:44,480 Speaker 11: that have campaigns of mutual interest, some of which have 2671 02:48:44,560 --> 02:48:46,200 Speaker 11: been going on for a long time, such as the 2672 02:48:46,240 --> 02:48:50,000 Speaker 11: Friends of Friendship Park and trying to gain access public 2673 02:48:50,120 --> 02:48:55,879 Speaker 11: access to Friendship Park, which currently is being impacted by 2674 02:48:55,920 --> 02:49:00,880 Speaker 11: the construction of two thirty foot border walls. And we 2675 02:49:01,080 --> 02:49:04,680 Speaker 11: also work directly with community members and providing information about 2676 02:49:04,720 --> 02:49:08,800 Speaker 11: what the rights are, how they can become and our 2677 02:49:08,879 --> 02:49:10,840 Speaker 11: leaders in their own communities, and how they can be 2678 02:49:11,000 --> 02:49:17,520 Speaker 11: active in straightening their communities and providing guidance to other 2679 02:49:17,600 --> 02:49:20,680 Speaker 11: people who might be in the same circumstances. So, in 2680 02:49:20,720 --> 02:49:22,160 Speaker 11: a nutshell, that's the work that we do. 2681 02:49:22,520 --> 02:49:25,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, great, it's very important work. And then James and Jacqueline, 2682 02:49:25,560 --> 02:49:27,600 Speaker 5: you want to explain Folks are familiar I think with 2683 02:49:27,720 --> 02:49:31,120 Speaker 5: Border Kindness from the previous episode, but like, maybe what 2684 02:49:31,280 --> 02:49:33,920 Speaker 5: have you been doing in the last I can't remember 2685 02:49:34,000 --> 02:49:37,640 Speaker 5: two weeks, like since people started being held out in 2686 02:49:37,680 --> 02:49:38,520 Speaker 5: the open again. 2687 02:49:40,200 --> 02:49:43,520 Speaker 12: So in our organizations kind of always evolving with like 2688 02:49:43,680 --> 02:49:46,760 Speaker 12: the evolving needs of the border, and over the last 2689 02:49:47,640 --> 02:49:50,240 Speaker 12: i want to say, like years in particular, we've really 2690 02:49:50,360 --> 02:49:54,520 Speaker 12: started to emphasize our services being present in the rural border. 2691 02:49:55,440 --> 02:49:59,800 Speaker 12: We're based in Mexikali, primarily, our water drops are generally 2692 02:50:00,440 --> 02:50:04,600 Speaker 12: in the Imperio Valley region, and we started to extend 2693 02:50:04,720 --> 02:50:09,720 Speaker 12: our services to the rural community in San Diego County 2694 02:50:09,879 --> 02:50:12,960 Speaker 12: with regards to like day labor, providing aid to micro 2695 02:50:13,040 --> 02:50:16,680 Speaker 12: community that's living in rural communities. So all that to say, 2696 02:50:16,800 --> 02:50:20,280 Speaker 12: when the border appeared to be having one of its 2697 02:50:21,720 --> 02:50:26,440 Speaker 12: episodes of chaos, what's happened in the last couple of 2698 02:50:26,440 --> 02:50:32,360 Speaker 12: weeks with folks being detained between the walls down in 2699 02:50:32,400 --> 02:50:37,360 Speaker 12: sanny Cidral and then folks being you know, just dumped 2700 02:50:37,360 --> 02:50:39,280 Speaker 12: out into the street at the transit centers if we've 2701 02:50:39,320 --> 02:50:42,640 Speaker 12: been seeing all over San Diego County. We sort of 2702 02:50:42,840 --> 02:50:45,880 Speaker 12: held off because we knew this was going to happen 2703 02:50:45,920 --> 02:50:48,600 Speaker 12: in Hakuma. It was kind of one of those sixth 2704 02:50:48,640 --> 02:50:50,840 Speaker 12: sense kind of things, like when you see the writing 2705 02:50:50,879 --> 02:50:53,080 Speaker 12: on the wall, and it was like only a matter 2706 02:50:53,160 --> 02:50:57,480 Speaker 12: of time before people ended up pushed into rural San 2707 02:50:57,480 --> 02:51:01,360 Speaker 12: Diego County, and unfortunately that has been the case. So 2708 02:51:02,280 --> 02:51:04,640 Speaker 12: we were actually out in the desert doing a water 2709 02:51:04,720 --> 02:51:09,320 Speaker 12: drop and heard that that in fact had occurred and 2710 02:51:09,640 --> 02:51:10,680 Speaker 12: there were hundreds. 2711 02:51:10,360 --> 02:51:13,600 Speaker 13: Of people in Hakkumba. So we've been out there providing 2712 02:51:13,680 --> 02:51:14,400 Speaker 13: EID ever since. 2713 02:51:15,120 --> 02:51:18,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, so Preps, we could describe these. So there are 2714 02:51:18,720 --> 02:51:22,040 Speaker 5: like three things I think people would benefit from knowing about. 2715 02:51:22,200 --> 02:51:25,000 Speaker 5: One is the detention of people between the walls in 2716 02:51:25,040 --> 02:51:28,360 Speaker 5: San Cathedral, which I think Pedro has seen a lot of. 2717 02:51:28,680 --> 02:51:31,360 Speaker 5: I've seen, We've seen each other down there several days. 2718 02:51:31,879 --> 02:51:34,519 Speaker 5: The detention of folks in the open desert in Hakumba, 2719 02:51:35,000 --> 02:51:38,480 Speaker 5: and this this dumping of migrants to various transit centers 2720 02:51:38,480 --> 02:51:41,800 Speaker 5: across the county. Those are the three things we've seen, 2721 02:51:41,879 --> 02:51:45,560 Speaker 5: like in massive numbers this last couple of weeks. So 2722 02:51:45,680 --> 02:51:48,520 Speaker 5: Preps we could start with explaining her Cumba, and then 2723 02:51:48,680 --> 02:51:50,840 Speaker 5: Pedro can take on explaining the other two because I 2724 02:51:50,920 --> 02:51:53,280 Speaker 5: know he's been responding to those. So can you just 2725 02:51:53,320 --> 02:51:55,360 Speaker 5: tell us, like what you saw, the number of people, 2726 02:51:56,000 --> 02:51:59,720 Speaker 5: the conditions in which they're being held, that kind of stuff. 2727 02:52:01,720 --> 02:52:07,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, usually what we're seeing now, I mean now it's 2728 02:52:07,920 --> 02:52:08,760 Speaker 1: currently what today? 2729 02:52:08,879 --> 02:52:09,400 Speaker 4: What is today? 2730 02:52:09,400 --> 02:52:14,080 Speaker 1: Wednesday? So I know it today is yeah, yeah, I 2731 02:52:14,120 --> 02:52:15,760 Speaker 1: woke up this morning. I asked jacquely on what day 2732 02:52:15,760 --> 02:52:18,000 Speaker 1: it was, because it just seems like a broken blur, 2733 02:52:18,280 --> 02:52:21,240 Speaker 1: you know, the in and day out. But we are 2734 02:52:21,640 --> 02:52:25,680 Speaker 1: on Wednesday now, that's Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. Every day 2735 02:52:25,800 --> 02:52:34,000 Speaker 1: so far we have noticed a revolving door of roughly 2736 02:52:35,400 --> 02:52:41,240 Speaker 1: two and fifty spread out between one to three camps 2737 02:52:41,959 --> 02:52:47,400 Speaker 1: every day. There's a camp on the east side in Hokomba, 2738 02:52:48,040 --> 02:52:50,600 Speaker 1: there's a camp that's on the west side of Hokumba, 2739 02:52:50,640 --> 02:52:52,840 Speaker 1: and then there's a camp that's just outside Hokomba and 2740 02:52:52,879 --> 02:52:55,080 Speaker 1: Boulevard that seems to be the biggest camp right now. 2741 02:52:56,280 --> 02:53:01,640 Speaker 1: That camp is the largest one because it's kind of hidden. 2742 02:53:02,520 --> 02:53:05,720 Speaker 1: You got to drive down from the main highway. You 2743 02:53:05,800 --> 02:53:08,360 Speaker 1: have to drive, you know, at least fifteen minutes, you know, 2744 02:53:08,680 --> 02:53:12,160 Speaker 1: down some dirt roads, back roads, you know, past ranches 2745 02:53:12,160 --> 02:53:15,720 Speaker 1: and stuff like that to get to that open air camp, 2746 02:53:16,000 --> 02:53:19,160 Speaker 1: where the other ones, especially like we saw in May, 2747 02:53:19,720 --> 02:53:24,119 Speaker 1: were more like wide open, closer to the towns, closer 2748 02:53:24,160 --> 02:53:28,080 Speaker 1: to visibility, closer to highway access. And so what we've 2749 02:53:28,240 --> 02:53:31,880 Speaker 1: noticed is that speaking with the locals and seeing for 2750 02:53:31,920 --> 02:53:35,600 Speaker 1: ourselves that every day the camps that are more visible 2751 02:53:36,080 --> 02:53:41,000 Speaker 1: are having less people coming in and they're being taken 2752 02:53:41,080 --> 02:53:47,040 Speaker 1: out faster. And so that part I think is, you know, 2753 02:53:47,080 --> 02:53:49,120 Speaker 1: it could be done for for a multitude of reasons, 2754 02:53:49,200 --> 02:53:52,280 Speaker 1: but the camp that's hidden and out of you is 2755 02:53:52,400 --> 02:53:57,720 Speaker 1: the one that seems kind of strategic and seems calculated 2756 02:53:58,280 --> 02:54:02,320 Speaker 1: on a greater level that as people are being loaded 2757 02:54:02,400 --> 02:54:05,960 Speaker 1: up on vans or buses to be taken out for processing, 2758 02:54:06,480 --> 02:54:09,200 Speaker 1: almost the same amount of people gets walked in to 2759 02:54:09,360 --> 02:54:13,040 Speaker 1: that camp from the actual border by border patrol. So 2760 02:54:13,120 --> 02:54:17,280 Speaker 1: it it's definitely an odd situation that's going on there. 2761 02:54:17,879 --> 02:54:22,680 Speaker 1: It seems definitely calculated orchestrated and something that you know, 2762 02:54:22,879 --> 02:54:25,560 Speaker 1: we feel that will be going on for quite a while. 2763 02:54:26,320 --> 02:54:29,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, let's when we talk about that, right, So, like 2764 02:54:29,280 --> 02:54:33,240 Speaker 5: people are crossing and then being being transported, like you say, 2765 02:54:33,280 --> 02:54:36,199 Speaker 5: on foot by border patrol to the camp that's your understanding, 2766 02:54:36,320 --> 02:54:39,720 Speaker 5: right to that camp in in near Boulevard. I'll say, 2767 02:54:39,760 --> 02:54:41,280 Speaker 5: I don't want to give the exact location. 2768 02:54:41,840 --> 02:54:45,480 Speaker 1: Correct, Yes, we witnessed that as well. We witnessed on 2769 02:54:46,000 --> 02:54:50,480 Speaker 1: Monday night that we were there to help distribute food 2770 02:54:50,520 --> 02:54:54,520 Speaker 1: and warm supplies, and I think a total of five 2771 02:54:54,640 --> 02:54:59,600 Speaker 1: or six Border Patrol vans had, you know, about one 2772 02:54:59,680 --> 02:55:03,560 Speaker 1: hundred people are so lined up and loaded up onto 2773 02:55:03,600 --> 02:55:07,119 Speaker 1: those vans. And then right as they were getting ready 2774 02:55:07,240 --> 02:55:11,520 Speaker 1: to have the last two vans leave, we saw in 2775 02:55:11,600 --> 02:55:16,040 Speaker 1: the distance, in the opposite direction or Patrol their truck 2776 02:55:16,200 --> 02:55:21,480 Speaker 1: driving behind a group of roughly eighty eighty five new 2777 02:55:21,560 --> 02:55:26,360 Speaker 1: migrants coming in on foot. Right around there's a gap 2778 02:55:26,440 --> 02:55:26,879 Speaker 1: in the fence. 2779 02:55:27,240 --> 02:55:29,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, I saw people walking in. I was the other 2780 02:55:29,560 --> 02:55:32,440 Speaker 5: day before you guys. So I was early, as I said, 2781 02:55:32,480 --> 02:55:35,160 Speaker 5: early Monday morning, and I saw the same thing, like 2782 02:55:35,320 --> 02:55:37,720 Speaker 5: you know, sort of just after dawn. I couldn't make 2783 02:55:37,720 --> 02:55:40,000 Speaker 5: out who was walking home, just because it was dark. 2784 02:55:41,000 --> 02:55:43,040 Speaker 5: Can you explain briefly, and then then we'll move to 2785 02:55:43,200 --> 02:55:46,680 Speaker 5: to Pedro's situation. Can you explain the services that are 2786 02:55:46,760 --> 02:55:50,120 Speaker 5: provided for them by Border Patrol and then what is 2787 02:55:50,680 --> 02:55:52,400 Speaker 5: provided for them by volunteers. 2788 02:55:53,120 --> 02:55:58,000 Speaker 12: By Border Patrol. It's essentially nothing. When this occurred in May, 2789 02:55:58,920 --> 02:56:01,080 Speaker 12: we heard that at most people were receiving an eight 2790 02:56:01,120 --> 02:56:05,440 Speaker 12: ounce bottle of water daily, not really distributed in an 2791 02:56:05,520 --> 02:56:10,440 Speaker 12: organized manner. Currently, we're observing that people are when they arrive, 2792 02:56:11,040 --> 02:56:14,560 Speaker 12: they're at times provided with a sixteen ounce bottle of 2793 02:56:14,600 --> 02:56:20,039 Speaker 12: water and potentially a little toddler sized pack of goldfish crackers. 2794 02:56:21,560 --> 02:56:28,359 Speaker 12: Border Patrol is not providing any other continued services food, shelter, sanitation, 2795 02:56:28,640 --> 02:56:33,280 Speaker 12: anything like that. Those things have all been organized at 2796 02:56:33,320 --> 02:56:36,440 Speaker 12: a community level by a variety of organizations such as 2797 02:56:36,760 --> 02:56:41,400 Speaker 12: ours that's comprised of just regular people. So it's the 2798 02:56:41,520 --> 02:56:48,480 Speaker 12: government's task of managing a humanitarian crisis. 2799 02:56:49,640 --> 02:56:50,039 Speaker 4: They have. 2800 02:56:51,640 --> 02:56:56,359 Speaker 12: Like really outsourced it to the general community of supporters. 2801 02:56:57,000 --> 02:57:00,160 Speaker 12: So they have taken not just the role of not 2802 02:57:00,280 --> 02:57:04,600 Speaker 12: having any responsibility towards caring for migrants in like the 2803 02:57:04,680 --> 02:57:08,280 Speaker 12: most basic manner, but it also seems like they have 2804 02:57:08,480 --> 02:57:13,240 Speaker 12: come to expect the general community to come in and 2805 02:57:13,280 --> 02:57:16,000 Speaker 12: fill the gaps that they're not meeting. So Border Patrol 2806 02:57:16,040 --> 02:57:18,600 Speaker 12: is not providing them with anything. It's everyday regular people 2807 02:57:18,680 --> 02:57:24,280 Speaker 12: that are showing up with blankets, food, water, hygiene items. 2808 02:57:24,920 --> 02:57:30,560 Speaker 12: It's getting really cold, so people are distributing warm clothing, diapers, formula, 2809 02:57:31,520 --> 02:57:34,240 Speaker 12: anything that people need is being provided by the community. 2810 02:57:34,840 --> 02:57:38,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, a good summary, I think, so, Pedrick, could 2811 02:57:38,400 --> 02:57:41,320 Speaker 5: you explain how the how the situation is in sany 2812 02:57:41,520 --> 02:57:45,520 Speaker 5: Edra and then also at the transit centers, and it's 2813 02:57:45,600 --> 02:57:46,680 Speaker 5: a pretty similar situation. 2814 02:57:46,760 --> 02:57:49,600 Speaker 11: I think, yeah, sure, I'll start with Sunny zero and 2815 02:57:50,440 --> 02:57:53,560 Speaker 11: the location where community members and organizations have set up 2816 02:57:53,680 --> 02:57:55,160 Speaker 11: is known as Whiskey eight. 2817 02:57:55,879 --> 02:57:56,879 Speaker 4: There are at least. 2818 02:57:56,680 --> 02:58:00,000 Speaker 11: Three other locations that we know where encampman's has formed. 2819 02:58:00,160 --> 02:58:03,720 Speaker 11: One is Whisky four, which is close to the last 2820 02:58:03,720 --> 02:58:06,880 Speaker 11: America shopping mall. It's an outlet mall closer to the 2821 02:58:07,000 --> 02:58:10,240 Speaker 11: port of entry, and then about a mile west of 2822 02:58:10,360 --> 02:58:13,880 Speaker 11: Whiskey eight there's Spooners Mesa, and then close to that 2823 02:58:14,160 --> 02:58:18,080 Speaker 11: there's ninety one X. The Spooners Mesa is primarily where 2824 02:58:18,720 --> 02:58:23,920 Speaker 11: the men's encampment is has been arranged, and this happened 2825 02:58:23,959 --> 02:58:27,400 Speaker 11: back in May. There was an incident where Border Patrol 2826 02:58:28,160 --> 02:58:33,280 Speaker 11: decided to move all the single adult men and walk them, 2827 02:58:33,400 --> 02:58:36,680 Speaker 11: march them essentially about a mile up a hill and 2828 02:58:36,760 --> 02:58:41,440 Speaker 11: then up another hill to get to Spooners Mesa. After 2829 02:58:41,560 --> 02:58:46,120 Speaker 11: some advocacy last week, we convinced Border Patrol to allow 2830 02:58:46,760 --> 02:58:49,640 Speaker 11: two of us to go up there to feed about 2831 02:58:49,840 --> 02:58:52,080 Speaker 11: anywhere between three hundred and eighty and four hundred men, 2832 02:58:52,680 --> 02:58:54,360 Speaker 11: and it took us over an hour. About an hour, 2833 02:58:54,560 --> 02:58:59,840 Speaker 11: fifteen minutes to feed all of the men. Fortunately, we 2834 02:59:00,120 --> 02:59:02,360 Speaker 11: just barely had enough food for all of them. This 2835 02:59:02,560 --> 02:59:05,240 Speaker 11: was in the evening and as we were driving in 2836 02:59:05,400 --> 02:59:09,680 Speaker 11: and driving out, all we could see was milar blankets 2837 02:59:10,360 --> 02:59:13,400 Speaker 11: strown about, and that's all that was up there. And 2838 02:59:13,520 --> 02:59:17,080 Speaker 11: these were the men that were these milar blankets down 2839 02:59:17,160 --> 02:59:21,400 Speaker 11: in Whiskey eight. How community members and organizations have arranged 2840 02:59:21,920 --> 02:59:26,960 Speaker 11: the solidarity support stations have been in four set So 2841 02:59:27,120 --> 02:59:31,080 Speaker 11: you have the charging station, you have the medical supplies 2842 02:59:31,240 --> 02:59:34,600 Speaker 11: and other items station, then you have the food station, 2843 02:59:35,200 --> 02:59:37,480 Speaker 11: and then the water station. And so we tried to 2844 02:59:37,560 --> 02:59:41,640 Speaker 11: maintain the medical supplies. The food station is available only 2845 02:59:41,680 --> 02:59:45,760 Speaker 11: when we have enough food to provide substenance to everyone there. 2846 02:59:46,280 --> 02:59:48,160 Speaker 11: We don't want to create a situation where we only 2847 02:59:48,240 --> 02:59:50,680 Speaker 11: serve half of the people or a quarter of the people, 2848 02:59:51,160 --> 02:59:54,160 Speaker 11: and then the other people go hungry. And mind you, 2849 02:59:54,200 --> 02:59:56,800 Speaker 11: it's important to point out that when people arrive there, 2850 02:59:57,160 --> 02:59:59,680 Speaker 11: they are hungry, they are thirsty. Some of them have 2851 03:00:00,040 --> 03:00:06,119 Speaker 11: rapes because they scale the primary border barrier and injure themselves. 2852 03:00:06,240 --> 03:00:08,320 Speaker 11: Others are wet because they've walked through the canal to 2853 03:00:08,879 --> 03:00:13,480 Speaker 11: get to that location. I've also witnessed on several locations 2854 03:00:13,520 --> 03:00:16,279 Speaker 11: where a border patrol will tell people who are injured 2855 03:00:16,440 --> 03:00:20,000 Speaker 11: to walk towards our location because they tell them that 2856 03:00:20,120 --> 03:00:23,280 Speaker 11: that's where we will provide them with medical care. Now, 2857 03:00:23,600 --> 03:00:29,720 Speaker 11: I think it's important to mention that under customers and 2858 03:00:29,720 --> 03:00:32,320 Speaker 11: a Border Protection which is a parent agency of the 2859 03:00:32,360 --> 03:00:35,400 Speaker 11: Border Patrol, under their national standards for how they are 2860 03:00:35,480 --> 03:00:40,640 Speaker 11: supposed to transform, escort, detain, and search people under their custody, 2861 03:00:41,240 --> 03:00:45,840 Speaker 11: they are obligated to feed, to provide water, to provide shelter, 2862 03:00:46,600 --> 03:00:52,200 Speaker 11: to treat medical urgencies. Any time that individuals are under 2863 03:00:52,240 --> 03:00:56,720 Speaker 11: their custody. There is some back and forth. Orbitrol locally 2864 03:00:56,800 --> 03:01:00,360 Speaker 11: will say that individuals are not under their custody until 2865 03:01:00,360 --> 03:01:04,000 Speaker 11: they are being transported, even though they will provide them 2866 03:01:04,080 --> 03:01:07,280 Speaker 11: with a wristband or bracelet in some cases, tell them 2867 03:01:07,320 --> 03:01:10,440 Speaker 11: to remove their shoelaces, direct them to where they should 2868 03:01:10,440 --> 03:01:13,720 Speaker 11: be walking y'all at them when they're not forming in 2869 03:01:13,840 --> 03:01:18,360 Speaker 11: lines in order to be picked up. Sometimes throw a 2870 03:01:18,480 --> 03:01:21,360 Speaker 11: fit and will not pick people up even though they're 2871 03:01:21,920 --> 03:01:24,040 Speaker 11: supposed to be there to do that because people are 2872 03:01:24,120 --> 03:01:26,800 Speaker 11: not in lines as quickly as it should be. All 2873 03:01:26,879 --> 03:01:30,840 Speaker 11: of this to several of our organizations indicate that border 2874 03:01:30,879 --> 03:01:36,800 Speaker 11: patrol at some to some degree has people under their 2875 03:01:36,879 --> 03:01:42,720 Speaker 11: custody and as such is violating these national standards because 2876 03:01:43,200 --> 03:01:47,959 Speaker 11: it's not meeting their needs at any level. Besides maybe 2877 03:01:48,120 --> 03:01:51,920 Speaker 11: the bottle of water might provide and the one or 2878 03:01:51,920 --> 03:01:56,320 Speaker 11: two granola bars they provide per day, if even that, yeah. 2879 03:01:56,400 --> 03:02:00,600 Speaker 5: I think it's the national border patrol. Pio also claimed 2880 03:02:00,640 --> 03:02:03,120 Speaker 5: to me that they were not detaining people and that 2881 03:02:03,200 --> 03:02:05,920 Speaker 5: people were free to quote return to Mexico, which like, 2882 03:02:06,800 --> 03:02:10,440 Speaker 5: these people aren't from Mexico and in many cases, and 2883 03:02:10,840 --> 03:02:13,080 Speaker 5: like I think the first day, maybe I saw you 2884 03:02:13,160 --> 03:02:15,240 Speaker 5: speaking to one family who come from Mexico, but the 2885 03:02:15,360 --> 03:02:18,480 Speaker 5: vast jority of people weren't, and they'd also be entering 2886 03:02:18,560 --> 03:02:21,560 Speaker 5: Mexico between ports of entry because they're in the United 2887 03:02:21,560 --> 03:02:25,880 Speaker 5: States at this time. So yeah, it's just not those 2888 03:02:25,920 --> 03:02:28,600 Speaker 5: people are like, there's lots of evidence that they're being detained, 2889 03:02:29,040 --> 03:02:33,440 Speaker 5: even if they say they're not. What then happens to 2890 03:02:33,520 --> 03:02:36,480 Speaker 5: those people? They We've all seen it, right, These vans 2891 03:02:36,520 --> 03:02:40,080 Speaker 5: pull up. They generally process people in a certain order, 2892 03:02:40,280 --> 03:02:43,840 Speaker 5: which which is to take unaccompanied miners and women who 2893 03:02:43,879 --> 03:02:47,000 Speaker 5: are alone with children, and then families and then single adults. 2894 03:02:48,400 --> 03:02:50,240 Speaker 5: What happens to them once they get on that van? 2895 03:02:50,400 --> 03:02:51,360 Speaker 4: Do we do? 2896 03:02:51,400 --> 03:02:53,120 Speaker 5: We have a clear sense of that and where they 2897 03:02:53,200 --> 03:02:53,520 Speaker 5: end up. 2898 03:02:54,600 --> 03:02:57,960 Speaker 11: They will be taken to any one of several borbitual 2899 03:02:58,000 --> 03:03:04,600 Speaker 11: stations for processing. And it's that processing stage where most 2900 03:03:04,640 --> 03:03:08,240 Speaker 11: of them who are in these locations are there because 2901 03:03:08,280 --> 03:03:11,400 Speaker 11: they want to present themselves to the authority and begin 2902 03:03:11,440 --> 03:03:14,920 Speaker 11: an asylum claim, and so it's how they answer the 2903 03:03:15,000 --> 03:03:19,240 Speaker 11: questions while being processed that they get tracked, mostly for asylum. 2904 03:03:19,320 --> 03:03:23,480 Speaker 11: There are some that will be quickly removed from the 2905 03:03:23,520 --> 03:03:28,520 Speaker 11: country expeditiously, but most of them will be tracked for asylum. 2906 03:03:29,600 --> 03:03:32,760 Speaker 11: They will be given a court date when they should 2907 03:03:32,959 --> 03:03:36,279 Speaker 11: show up, and that court date the court location depends 2908 03:03:36,320 --> 03:03:41,960 Speaker 11: on where their final destination will be. Technically, Mexicans can 2909 03:03:42,040 --> 03:03:45,560 Speaker 11: only be detained for forty eight hours. Non Mexicans can 2910 03:03:45,640 --> 03:03:48,280 Speaker 11: only be detained no more than seventy two hours. So 2911 03:03:48,600 --> 03:03:52,560 Speaker 11: within that detention period, they then are being transported to 2912 03:03:52,800 --> 03:03:56,240 Speaker 11: one of four locations in San die County, two of 2913 03:03:56,320 --> 03:03:59,199 Speaker 11: which are in San Diego, the Santi Zeru Transit Center 2914 03:03:59,280 --> 03:04:03,680 Speaker 11: in the Iris Transit Center, one in Oceanside, and the 2915 03:04:03,760 --> 03:04:06,880 Speaker 11: other in Alcohol. And so we're seeing the majority of 2916 03:04:06,920 --> 03:04:11,120 Speaker 11: the people being transported to science Ero and to IRIS, 2917 03:04:11,600 --> 03:04:15,920 Speaker 11: and that's where colleagues with other sister organizations are leading 2918 03:04:16,000 --> 03:04:19,080 Speaker 11: the charge to try to support them with assisting and 2919 03:04:19,200 --> 03:04:23,200 Speaker 11: charging phones, providing food, clothing, getting them to the airport, 2920 03:04:23,240 --> 03:04:27,039 Speaker 11: getting them transportation, getting them housing, and as much as 2921 03:04:27,120 --> 03:04:30,720 Speaker 11: limited as that's possible, trying to connect them with lost 2922 03:04:30,800 --> 03:04:35,080 Speaker 11: family members. Because families have been separated, there are adult 2923 03:04:35,120 --> 03:04:38,080 Speaker 11: children eighteen nineteen who also are trying to figure out 2924 03:04:38,080 --> 03:04:40,880 Speaker 11: where their family members are. And in some cases, as 2925 03:04:40,920 --> 03:04:43,280 Speaker 11: a conversation I had with them, man from Venezuela, he 2926 03:04:43,320 --> 03:04:45,200 Speaker 11: had no idea what city he was at either, though 2927 03:04:45,200 --> 03:04:48,120 Speaker 11: he was in San Diego, and so trying to make 2928 03:04:48,480 --> 03:04:53,119 Speaker 11: that type of arrangement and clarification is always challenging as well. 2929 03:04:53,800 --> 03:04:57,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, and obviously also expensive. Right, Like these things all 2930 03:04:57,720 --> 03:05:02,800 Speaker 5: place burdens on like your donation network and both in 2931 03:05:02,959 --> 03:05:06,640 Speaker 5: sort of the community in general. And perhaps we can 2932 03:05:06,720 --> 03:05:09,320 Speaker 5: talk about like, because the scale of support that's been 2933 03:05:09,360 --> 03:05:12,840 Speaker 5: provided by the community is extremely impressive, and given how 2934 03:05:12,879 --> 03:05:16,280 Speaker 5: many people have already come through this sort of not 2935 03:05:16,440 --> 03:05:19,720 Speaker 5: detention detention system, but perhaps both of you could talk 2936 03:05:19,760 --> 03:05:22,000 Speaker 5: about like the support you've been able to provide and 2937 03:05:22,760 --> 03:05:27,280 Speaker 5: how people who are not in San Diego can help 2938 03:05:27,360 --> 03:05:28,920 Speaker 5: you continue to provide that support. 2939 03:05:31,400 --> 03:05:36,039 Speaker 12: So the first day that we heard of folks coming 2940 03:05:36,120 --> 03:05:41,000 Speaker 12: in because obviously it's interesting because border patrol, like Pedro 2941 03:05:41,120 --> 03:05:43,600 Speaker 12: says like they're claiming that these people are not under 2942 03:05:43,640 --> 03:05:46,760 Speaker 12: their care, but they're very much acting as if they're 2943 03:05:47,080 --> 03:05:51,760 Speaker 12: under their detained care. They're telling people that if they 2944 03:05:52,400 --> 03:05:54,720 Speaker 12: call an ambulance to seek medical care, as we observe, 2945 03:05:54,760 --> 03:05:56,440 Speaker 12: they say, well, that's going to affect your case if 2946 03:05:56,480 --> 03:05:56,840 Speaker 12: you leave. 2947 03:05:57,680 --> 03:05:59,360 Speaker 3: And so people are very. 2948 03:05:59,320 --> 03:06:03,039 Speaker 12: Much under the deliberate impression that they are being detained, 2949 03:06:03,560 --> 03:06:06,280 Speaker 12: but they're not being cared for in the most basic way. 2950 03:06:07,120 --> 03:06:11,600 Speaker 12: And so we first responded on Saturday. By Sunday we 2951 03:06:12,440 --> 03:06:16,400 Speaker 12: were there with five hundred meals that went very very quickly, 2952 03:06:18,120 --> 03:06:23,200 Speaker 12: providing shelter items for people, so tarps. Hakumba is a 2953 03:06:23,520 --> 03:06:28,360 Speaker 12: very rugged desert terrain. There is no shade in these areas, 2954 03:06:28,440 --> 03:06:32,680 Speaker 12: so people are making sort of like makeshift shelters, but 2955 03:06:32,800 --> 03:06:37,000 Speaker 12: there is nothing shielding them from the sun, which is 2956 03:06:37,040 --> 03:06:39,920 Speaker 12: really unrelenting all day and it gets up to nineties. 2957 03:06:40,520 --> 03:06:44,120 Speaker 12: So we've been providing tarps, pop ups that sort of 2958 03:06:44,200 --> 03:06:50,840 Speaker 12: thing so people are not becoming sick from overexposure. We're 2959 03:06:50,959 --> 03:06:56,040 Speaker 12: providing hygiene items, we're providing just basic needs. And that 2960 03:06:56,120 --> 03:06:59,760 Speaker 12: gets incredibly expensive because if it was a static situation, 2961 03:07:00,120 --> 03:07:02,520 Speaker 12: such as in May when there was eighteen hundred to 2962 03:07:02,600 --> 03:07:05,920 Speaker 12: two thousand people, that was a huge undertaking that also 2963 03:07:05,959 --> 03:07:09,360 Speaker 12: took a lot of community collaboration to meet the needs 2964 03:07:09,400 --> 03:07:11,879 Speaker 12: of so many people. But this time around, as James says, 2965 03:07:11,920 --> 03:07:16,000 Speaker 12: it's like a revolving door of hundreds and hundreds of people. 2966 03:07:16,560 --> 03:07:19,880 Speaker 12: So it's taking hundreds and hundreds while at any given 2967 03:07:19,959 --> 03:07:23,440 Speaker 12: time there may be only and I say only two 2968 03:07:23,520 --> 03:07:26,200 Speaker 12: to three hundred people, it doesn't mean that to only 2969 03:07:26,240 --> 03:07:28,960 Speaker 12: two to three hundred people needed to be fed that day. 2970 03:07:29,840 --> 03:07:32,840 Speaker 12: It's that you know, that is who is there at 2971 03:07:32,920 --> 03:07:36,280 Speaker 12: that time. And when people arrive, as bethro said, like 2972 03:07:36,400 --> 03:07:39,440 Speaker 12: they haven't eaten in days. We talked to people that 2973 03:07:39,520 --> 03:07:42,080 Speaker 12: said that they took two days to walk to Hakumba. 2974 03:07:42,800 --> 03:07:45,480 Speaker 12: So if they arrived to Tijuana without much food in 2975 03:07:45,520 --> 03:07:48,440 Speaker 12: their belly and then they're having to walk for two days, 2976 03:07:48,480 --> 03:07:52,039 Speaker 12: they're arriving starving and begging for food and not being 2977 03:07:52,120 --> 03:07:55,760 Speaker 12: provided with absolutely anything. So if it wasn't for all 2978 03:07:55,840 --> 03:08:00,280 Speaker 12: of the organizations that are showing up and taking sort 2979 03:08:00,320 --> 03:08:04,880 Speaker 12: of shifts to feed people, there would be nothing for them. 2980 03:08:05,600 --> 03:08:09,040 Speaker 12: And we have absolutely no idea how long this is 2981 03:08:09,120 --> 03:08:12,560 Speaker 12: going to go on. It could be over today, it 2982 03:08:12,640 --> 03:08:15,360 Speaker 12: could go on for months year. I mean, we really 2983 03:08:15,400 --> 03:08:19,280 Speaker 12: don't know what to expect. And organizations are being relied 2984 03:08:19,360 --> 03:08:22,760 Speaker 12: on to provide, you know, life sustaining care for people, 2985 03:08:23,320 --> 03:08:28,800 Speaker 12: but we're not being communicated with from border patrol as 2986 03:08:29,000 --> 03:08:34,680 Speaker 12: to basically anything, what the outlook is, what the numbers are, 2987 03:08:35,120 --> 03:08:38,800 Speaker 12: what the updates of how the situation is going to evolve. 2988 03:08:38,920 --> 03:08:41,040 Speaker 12: So every day is a surprise and we need to 2989 03:08:41,160 --> 03:08:43,400 Speaker 12: have resources to be able to meet the needs of 2990 03:08:43,480 --> 03:08:47,840 Speaker 12: that day. It's incredibly like consuming of every resource including 2991 03:08:47,959 --> 03:08:50,440 Speaker 12: time and gas is six dollars a gallon. 2992 03:08:51,280 --> 03:08:55,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, now you need to drive your truck right because 2993 03:08:55,680 --> 03:08:58,240 Speaker 5: like you can't get to some of the locations, Like 2994 03:08:58,320 --> 03:09:00,800 Speaker 5: I know, I have a big get truck and loves 2995 03:09:00,800 --> 03:09:02,320 Speaker 5: of my friends about to catch a rye with me 2996 03:09:02,320 --> 03:09:03,360 Speaker 5: because I cause can't make it. 2997 03:09:03,480 --> 03:09:06,960 Speaker 12: It exactly like, we have people that have gas efficient, 2998 03:09:07,040 --> 03:09:09,200 Speaker 12: low priuses and stuff and they're going to bottom out 2999 03:09:09,200 --> 03:09:12,320 Speaker 12: out there. So we have our huge lifted jeep that 3000 03:09:12,720 --> 03:09:16,240 Speaker 12: you know, doesn't get as much gas mileage as something, 3001 03:09:16,520 --> 03:09:18,640 Speaker 12: but it's also going to be able to get the 3002 03:09:18,680 --> 03:09:22,279 Speaker 12: supplies out there. So every aspect of it is incredibly 3003 03:09:22,440 --> 03:09:28,080 Speaker 12: consuming of resources and we don't know what to expect. 3004 03:09:28,120 --> 03:09:31,720 Speaker 12: It's not it's hard to budget. You don't know what 3005 03:09:31,840 --> 03:09:36,879 Speaker 12: I expect. So the community has obviously come together in support, 3006 03:09:37,560 --> 03:09:40,280 Speaker 12: but then it's like, well, how do we manage this 3007 03:09:43,160 --> 03:09:46,440 Speaker 12: when we don't we can't forecast what's going on, so 3008 03:09:46,920 --> 03:09:49,920 Speaker 12: it's tough. It's definitely tough. We need sustained support. 3009 03:09:50,440 --> 03:09:54,000 Speaker 1: If I may add on that, as Jacquelin said, the 3010 03:09:54,400 --> 03:09:57,000 Speaker 1: people are showing up hungry, heavening for days. You know, 3011 03:09:57,080 --> 03:09:59,440 Speaker 1: we get reports that you know, people are showing up 3012 03:09:59,680 --> 03:10:06,200 Speaker 1: just begging for food, and the federal government more specifically DHS, 3013 03:10:06,360 --> 03:10:12,640 Speaker 1: more specifically CBP Border Patrol know this. They're trying to 3014 03:10:12,680 --> 03:10:15,760 Speaker 1: stop people out at whatever the endgame is, and maybe 3015 03:10:15,760 --> 03:10:19,000 Speaker 1: it's just another arm of you know, prevention through the terrence. 3016 03:10:20,959 --> 03:10:26,760 Speaker 1: It's cruel, it's on purpose. People you know, are are 3017 03:10:26,840 --> 03:10:29,680 Speaker 1: the ponds and whatever, you know, game is being played 3018 03:10:29,760 --> 03:10:33,040 Speaker 1: and it's cruel, and that's you know, we're doing what 3019 03:10:33,120 --> 03:10:36,080 Speaker 1: we can to try to offset that as much as possible, 3020 03:10:36,120 --> 03:10:39,360 Speaker 1: but cruelty is definitely they're all across the border. 3021 03:10:40,440 --> 03:10:42,680 Speaker 5: Just to kind of upbuild on what James said, like, 3022 03:10:43,280 --> 03:10:46,119 Speaker 5: I think it's very easy for this construct of migrants 3023 03:10:46,240 --> 03:10:49,080 Speaker 5: to like always be like this sort of demonized other 3024 03:10:50,640 --> 03:10:53,760 Speaker 5: Fox News and KUSI and all these outlets do that 3025 03:10:53,879 --> 03:10:56,440 Speaker 5: very well. But I think it's really important to like 3026 03:10:56,520 --> 03:10:58,440 Speaker 5: the people who were being cruel to. Like I saw 3027 03:10:58,440 --> 03:11:01,600 Speaker 5: a lady breastfeeding in the desert on Sunday night. I've 3028 03:11:01,680 --> 03:11:05,240 Speaker 5: seen grandparents, I've seen people who are eight months pregnant 3029 03:11:06,040 --> 03:11:10,920 Speaker 5: little children like these aren't like people who have done 3030 03:11:11,040 --> 03:11:15,520 Speaker 5: anything wrong, and they just for whatever reason they come here, 3031 03:11:15,520 --> 03:11:17,120 Speaker 5: it doesn't really matter. They don't deserve to be treated 3032 03:11:17,240 --> 03:11:20,280 Speaker 5: like that. And like James said, it's something of an 3033 03:11:20,320 --> 03:11:24,040 Speaker 5: induced Like I've been to natural disasters all over the 3034 03:11:24,120 --> 03:11:26,960 Speaker 5: world and reported on those and seen those, and I've 3035 03:11:27,000 --> 03:11:29,720 Speaker 5: been to refugee camps all over the world, but like 3036 03:11:30,720 --> 03:11:33,160 Speaker 5: it's some big of a unique to the US problem 3037 03:11:33,440 --> 03:11:36,560 Speaker 5: that our federal government can click its fingers and induce 3038 03:11:36,560 --> 03:11:39,800 Speaker 5: a humanitarian crisis and then like hold its hands up 3039 03:11:39,800 --> 03:11:42,320 Speaker 5: in the air and say we can't help you. Like that, 3040 03:11:43,400 --> 03:11:47,040 Speaker 5: Like aside from dictatorial regimes in places I've reported in 3041 03:11:47,200 --> 03:11:50,800 Speaker 5: like the people don't governments don't do that very often, 3042 03:11:50,879 --> 03:11:53,520 Speaker 5: and like James said, it's these people who paid the price, 3043 03:11:53,600 --> 03:11:57,240 Speaker 5: it's not us for the most part. Pedro, could you 3044 03:11:57,720 --> 03:12:01,640 Speaker 5: maybe explain a little bit of how American French Service 3045 03:12:01,640 --> 03:12:04,680 Speaker 5: Committee has been able to respond and the resources you've used, 3046 03:12:04,760 --> 03:12:07,080 Speaker 5: and how you can help make this a little bit 3047 03:12:07,200 --> 03:12:09,960 Speaker 5: less painful for the people who are being held in 3048 03:12:10,040 --> 03:12:10,800 Speaker 5: between defenses. 3049 03:12:11,760 --> 03:12:15,800 Speaker 11: Sure, learning from the experience that we had back in March, 3050 03:12:15,840 --> 03:12:20,240 Speaker 11: April and May, we heard a few weeks ago that 3051 03:12:20,360 --> 03:12:23,040 Speaker 11: there were people lined up in an area that we 3052 03:12:23,120 --> 03:12:24,880 Speaker 11: could not see from the US side but could be 3053 03:12:24,920 --> 03:12:28,199 Speaker 11: seen from the Mexican side, just west of the Sandy 3054 03:12:28,200 --> 03:12:32,359 Speaker 11: Sedra port of entry, with people wearing and using milar blankets. 3055 03:12:32,400 --> 03:12:34,720 Speaker 11: And so the milar blankets were an indication to us 3056 03:12:34,760 --> 03:12:38,000 Speaker 11: that people were there for probably longer than four hours, 3057 03:12:38,040 --> 03:12:41,279 Speaker 11: and so we kept monitoring that, asking colleagues in Tijuana 3058 03:12:41,360 --> 03:12:44,960 Speaker 11: to inform us if they had seen any other groups 3059 03:12:45,040 --> 03:12:47,040 Speaker 11: like that, and off and on over the past month 3060 03:12:47,280 --> 03:12:50,080 Speaker 11: there were reports of that, and it wasn't until about 3061 03:12:50,080 --> 03:12:52,880 Speaker 11: two weeks ago that someone said that they were there 3062 03:12:52,959 --> 03:12:57,120 Speaker 11: for a long period of time. So last last week 3063 03:12:57,200 --> 03:13:00,360 Speaker 11: we set up what we called an observation post at 3064 03:13:00,400 --> 03:13:05,120 Speaker 11: Whiskey eight so that we could determine for ourselves how 3065 03:13:05,200 --> 03:13:08,240 Speaker 11: long people were there, what sort of needs they might have, 3066 03:13:08,480 --> 03:13:12,879 Speaker 11: and how to respond whether to set up the solidarity 3067 03:13:12,920 --> 03:13:16,200 Speaker 11: support stations again, and quickly we determined that that's what 3068 03:13:16,280 --> 03:13:18,760 Speaker 11: we needed to do, so we call our colleagues from 3069 03:13:18,840 --> 03:13:21,560 Speaker 11: other organizations whenever set up up with that for instance, 3070 03:13:21,600 --> 03:13:25,400 Speaker 11: has been extremely helpful and leading the charge in different places. 3071 03:13:26,800 --> 03:13:32,280 Speaker 11: The Appreciate Collective So Mutual Group also has been extremely 3072 03:13:32,360 --> 03:13:36,120 Speaker 11: important in having their people out there, and Friends of 3073 03:13:36,200 --> 03:13:38,959 Speaker 11: Friendship Park also has been important. So all these organizations 3074 03:13:39,000 --> 03:13:44,119 Speaker 11: that responded quickly and started to build from the experience 3075 03:13:44,120 --> 03:13:47,760 Speaker 11: that we had back in late spring setting up these 3076 03:13:48,800 --> 03:13:53,000 Speaker 11: stations to charge phones. Phones our lifeline for people. And 3077 03:13:53,320 --> 03:13:55,960 Speaker 11: back in may Or Patrol threatened us and they said, 3078 03:13:55,959 --> 03:13:58,200 Speaker 11: if you want to keep feeding people, you can't be 3079 03:13:58,320 --> 03:14:01,200 Speaker 11: charging their phones. And so we said, well, we're going 3080 03:14:01,280 --> 03:14:04,320 Speaker 11: to have to keep charging phones because people need them. 3081 03:14:04,400 --> 03:14:07,960 Speaker 11: And unfortunately Borbtoal backed off then and now it's part 3082 03:14:08,040 --> 03:14:11,040 Speaker 11: of what we do right. We charge phones and it's 3083 03:14:11,040 --> 03:14:13,360 Speaker 11: how people are able to communicate with their loved ones, 3084 03:14:13,400 --> 03:14:18,040 Speaker 11: especially if they've been separated. Feeding people, it's just as 3085 03:14:18,160 --> 03:14:20,520 Speaker 11: much as we're able to, even if it's just a sandwich, 3086 03:14:20,600 --> 03:14:25,520 Speaker 11: even if it's a warm meal that we're able to 3087 03:14:25,920 --> 03:14:30,160 Speaker 11: get through the bars or the secondary border barrier, that 3088 03:14:31,360 --> 03:14:34,320 Speaker 11: could mean the difference between someone staying healthy or someone 3089 03:14:34,840 --> 03:14:41,080 Speaker 11: becoming seriously ill. Bandaging up small cuts could relieve someone 3090 03:14:41,160 --> 03:14:47,240 Speaker 11: from getting an infection, identifying when medical emergencies pop up, 3091 03:14:47,360 --> 03:14:51,600 Speaker 11: so an eight month pregnant person who is suddenly having 3092 03:14:51,920 --> 03:14:56,000 Speaker 11: labor pains and having a needing to call nine to 3093 03:14:56,000 --> 03:14:59,440 Speaker 11: one one, for instance, or insisting with porbatrol that the 3094 03:14:59,560 --> 03:15:04,840 Speaker 11: one month old child cannot remain overnight in between border walls, 3095 03:15:04,879 --> 03:15:08,920 Speaker 11: and just insisting and insisting and insisting, insisting that the 3096 03:15:09,160 --> 03:15:11,680 Speaker 11: two porter parties that they have there need to be serviced, 3097 03:15:11,760 --> 03:15:15,360 Speaker 11: for instance. And so all of this advocacy is happening 3098 03:15:15,400 --> 03:15:19,160 Speaker 11: at the same time that our colleagues and allies are 3099 03:15:19,160 --> 03:15:24,039 Speaker 11: also feeding people, and the constant communication with different elected 3100 03:15:24,080 --> 03:15:28,920 Speaker 11: officials pushing on them to take charge and to respond 3101 03:15:29,640 --> 03:15:34,439 Speaker 11: has been one of the different aspects of our response 3102 03:15:35,160 --> 03:15:41,120 Speaker 11: to what is a humanitarian disaster that has been slowly evolving, 3103 03:15:41,120 --> 03:15:44,359 Speaker 11: I would say over years and years, because human migration 3104 03:15:44,600 --> 03:15:49,280 Speaker 11: isn't centered around humanitarian needs and human rights. It's been 3105 03:15:49,360 --> 03:15:55,720 Speaker 11: centered around enforcement, around militarization, around cruel deterrence, as James 3106 03:15:55,840 --> 03:16:01,120 Speaker 11: was talking about, which creates conditions where people are led 3107 03:16:01,160 --> 03:16:03,440 Speaker 11: to suffer. And that's what we're seeing right now, people 3108 03:16:03,560 --> 03:16:08,760 Speaker 11: suffering because of how this has been manufactured, how immigration 3109 03:16:08,920 --> 03:16:13,280 Speaker 11: has been dealt with, regardless of who's in the White House, 3110 03:16:13,680 --> 03:16:16,360 Speaker 11: over and over and over, and so now we're challenged 3111 03:16:16,440 --> 03:16:19,720 Speaker 11: to respond to these humanitarian needs in ways that are 3112 03:16:19,840 --> 03:16:24,240 Speaker 11: stretching our limits, but we're able to do it and 3113 03:16:24,640 --> 03:16:28,480 Speaker 11: hopefully lifting up the dignity of people that are placing 3114 03:16:28,720 --> 03:16:30,760 Speaker 11: under these terreble inhumane conditions. 3115 03:16:31,520 --> 03:16:33,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's very important to give people a 3116 03:16:33,480 --> 03:16:36,000 Speaker 5: little bit of dignity as much as we can. One 3117 03:16:36,040 --> 03:16:38,360 Speaker 5: thing that you mentioned that we haven't spoken about we 3118 03:16:38,480 --> 03:16:43,600 Speaker 5: should is elected officials and local federal state governments. How 3119 03:16:43,680 --> 03:16:47,000 Speaker 5: much support, if any, have either of these sites received 3120 03:16:47,080 --> 03:16:49,920 Speaker 5: from people in elected office. 3121 03:16:51,440 --> 03:16:57,320 Speaker 11: You know, we have had support from Senator Seph Bala's office. 3122 03:16:58,480 --> 03:17:02,200 Speaker 11: That's been to me oppressive to see how much interest 3123 03:17:02,240 --> 03:17:06,959 Speaker 11: there is, how much advocacy there is from staff from 3124 03:17:07,000 --> 03:17:11,600 Speaker 11: that office. We have not necessarily had much support from 3125 03:17:11,879 --> 03:17:16,800 Speaker 11: congressional or federal senators. We have not seen them really 3126 03:17:16,840 --> 03:17:21,880 Speaker 11: on the ground. There is a responsibility I believe that 3127 03:17:22,040 --> 03:17:26,440 Speaker 11: the County of San Diego has to meet some of 3128 03:17:26,520 --> 03:17:32,039 Speaker 11: these challenging circumstances at the transit centers, they're bocking, I feel, 3129 03:17:32,160 --> 03:17:36,240 Speaker 11: and to the detriment of people who need these services 3130 03:17:36,360 --> 03:17:39,879 Speaker 11: and need the support. I believe the San Diego Police 3131 03:17:39,920 --> 03:17:43,720 Speaker 11: Department has been suggesting where people should be dropped off 3132 03:17:44,200 --> 03:17:47,920 Speaker 11: and not listening to folks on the ground about how 3133 03:17:47,959 --> 03:17:51,320 Speaker 11: the IRIS station should be central and not dividing the 3134 03:17:51,520 --> 03:17:54,680 Speaker 11: drop offs between Irish and Sandy Seso for instance. So 3135 03:17:54,800 --> 03:17:59,520 Speaker 11: there's a lot of a lot of necessity for local 3136 03:17:59,600 --> 03:18:02,720 Speaker 11: government to be coordinating with state and federal governments and 3137 03:18:03,200 --> 03:18:06,600 Speaker 11: and that's lacking again to the detriment of people who 3138 03:18:06,680 --> 03:18:07,520 Speaker 11: are cut in the middle. 3139 03:18:09,240 --> 03:18:11,680 Speaker 5: How about James and Jack And have you seen any 3140 03:18:11,800 --> 03:18:13,160 Speaker 5: sort of government support? 3141 03:18:14,640 --> 03:18:15,959 Speaker 8: No, not at all. 3142 03:18:18,200 --> 03:18:22,960 Speaker 1: I've you know, heard through channels of you know, sources 3143 03:18:23,120 --> 03:18:28,160 Speaker 1: that work for the county and they claim that they're 3144 03:18:28,280 --> 03:18:31,560 Speaker 1: handcuffed or that it's Border Patrols responsibility. And then Border 3145 03:18:31,600 --> 03:18:34,760 Speaker 1: Patrol is saying it's the county's responsibility, and it just 3146 03:18:35,080 --> 03:18:39,920 Speaker 1: it seems like appointing fingers. No one's trying to take 3147 03:18:41,520 --> 03:18:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, responsibility for it. And maybe that's because it's 3148 03:18:45,520 --> 03:18:47,720 Speaker 1: going to be something that's going to go on for 3149 03:18:47,760 --> 03:18:52,000 Speaker 1: a while. It's not something that either wants to you know, 3150 03:18:52,320 --> 03:18:55,879 Speaker 1: take on the responsibility of. And you know, you've seen 3151 03:18:56,240 --> 03:18:59,640 Speaker 1: county supervisors speak out against it, push them the blame. 3152 03:19:00,760 --> 03:19:03,920 Speaker 1: People are here, this is San Diego County, this is 3153 03:19:03,920 --> 03:19:06,600 Speaker 1: the United States. Someone needs to take care of, you know, 3154 03:19:07,000 --> 03:19:09,840 Speaker 1: the people here. That's that's the role of government. That's 3155 03:19:09,840 --> 03:19:13,440 Speaker 1: why people pay taxes for you know, for services, and 3156 03:19:13,560 --> 03:19:16,000 Speaker 1: services need to be provided for. You know, we pay 3157 03:19:16,080 --> 03:19:19,400 Speaker 1: taxes so other people can get services as well, citizens 3158 03:19:19,480 --> 03:19:22,560 Speaker 1: non citizens like that. To me, it seems so easy. 3159 03:19:24,400 --> 03:19:27,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean. 3160 03:19:27,000 --> 03:19:29,280 Speaker 1: That's that's everything that you've been told, but everything that 3161 03:19:29,320 --> 03:19:33,120 Speaker 1: you're not seeing, you know, in practice. So I mean, 3162 03:19:33,200 --> 03:19:35,920 Speaker 1: this whole thing is to us on the ground, it 3163 03:19:36,040 --> 03:19:39,680 Speaker 1: seems so simple of how it should be done. But 3164 03:19:41,240 --> 03:19:43,040 Speaker 1: like you know, anytime, and we've spoke on it. I 3165 03:19:43,120 --> 03:19:45,760 Speaker 1: think on the last episode as well, like money's big issues. 3166 03:19:45,800 --> 03:19:48,200 Speaker 1: You're going to spend all this money, they need to 3167 03:19:48,240 --> 03:19:49,680 Speaker 1: make sure that their money is going in the right 3168 03:19:49,720 --> 03:19:50,800 Speaker 1: pockets that they wanted to. 3169 03:19:51,480 --> 03:19:55,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, Like I was sitting out in her cumba with 3170 03:19:55,400 --> 03:19:59,320 Speaker 5: the colleague and we got overflown by a uh sixty 3171 03:19:59,400 --> 03:20:02,800 Speaker 5: black Hawk, a Border Patrol helicopter, and it just hobbling 3172 03:20:02,840 --> 03:20:07,440 Speaker 5: around checking us out, and like it's just so I 3173 03:20:07,480 --> 03:20:09,840 Speaker 5: don't know, it's just so depressing to see this helicopter 3174 03:20:09,920 --> 03:20:12,280 Speaker 5: which costs millions of dollars, which are thousands of dollars 3175 03:20:12,400 --> 03:20:14,800 Speaker 5: just to take off next to the border wall, which 3176 03:20:14,840 --> 03:20:16,880 Speaker 5: got twelve million dollars a mile. And like on the 3177 03:20:16,959 --> 03:20:19,720 Speaker 5: same day that the San Diego City Council found an 3178 03:20:19,720 --> 03:20:22,200 Speaker 5: amicus brief in this case of the Supreme Court to 3179 03:20:22,280 --> 03:20:25,400 Speaker 5: allow it to further criminalize and house people. We have 3180 03:20:25,680 --> 03:20:28,960 Speaker 5: all these resources and we're just throwing them, as Pedera said, 3181 03:20:29,240 --> 03:20:34,240 Speaker 5: enforcement and criminalization of the most marginalized people in our communities, 3182 03:20:34,320 --> 03:20:37,000 Speaker 5: rather than giving a thirsty personal bottle of water or 3183 03:20:37,040 --> 03:20:41,800 Speaker 5: like a little baby blanket. And yeah, it's really hard. 3184 03:20:42,760 --> 03:20:45,160 Speaker 12: It's one of those agents over time of the day 3185 03:20:45,320 --> 03:20:50,560 Speaker 12: could literally feed everybody there. Yes, we're all like you know, 3186 03:20:51,360 --> 03:20:55,959 Speaker 12: calculating calories per dollar of like the mule and trying 3187 03:20:56,000 --> 03:20:59,720 Speaker 12: to get like every single dollar to stretch because we 3188 03:20:59,760 --> 03:21:01,240 Speaker 12: don't know how long this is going to go on, 3189 03:21:01,520 --> 03:21:07,080 Speaker 12: because we know that public perception and interest is something 3190 03:21:07,320 --> 03:21:12,720 Speaker 12: that is not sustained. And the purpose too, because for instance, 3191 03:21:13,040 --> 03:21:16,360 Speaker 12: Border Patrol is claiming and they were on what outlet 3192 03:21:16,480 --> 03:21:18,439 Speaker 12: was it CBA. 3193 03:21:18,440 --> 03:21:21,440 Speaker 1: CBS eight local San Diego said, I need to report 3194 03:21:21,480 --> 03:21:24,000 Speaker 1: that the Kumba camps are cleared. There's no one's there. 3195 03:21:24,160 --> 03:21:26,000 Speaker 1: I just you know, I had to step away from 3196 03:21:26,040 --> 03:21:30,600 Speaker 1: this this recording for a few to get an update 3197 03:21:31,080 --> 03:21:36,320 Speaker 1: that there are people still showing up. There's getting trying 3198 03:21:36,320 --> 03:21:38,040 Speaker 1: to get cleared out as quick as possible as people 3199 03:21:38,040 --> 03:21:39,800 Speaker 1: show up because it's in the public eye. But also 3200 03:21:39,959 --> 03:21:44,480 Speaker 1: now the power company is threatening legal action and criminal 3201 03:21:44,560 --> 03:21:48,400 Speaker 1: action against any aid orgs or people they show up. 3202 03:21:49,040 --> 03:21:53,400 Speaker 5: Oh great, cool, that'll be fun. Yeah, I mean yeah, 3203 03:21:53,480 --> 03:21:57,080 Speaker 5: the reporting on this has been poor, even more poor 3204 03:21:57,120 --> 03:21:59,320 Speaker 5: than it was in May. I'll say, like out in Hokumba, 3205 03:22:00,000 --> 03:22:02,640 Speaker 5: it's hard to get to. James and I both spent 3206 03:22:02,680 --> 03:22:04,959 Speaker 5: a decent junk of yesterday morning trying to direct people 3207 03:22:05,000 --> 03:22:08,720 Speaker 5: how to not get lost out there. But like I 3208 03:22:08,840 --> 03:22:11,640 Speaker 5: think more persinently when there is not an election or 3209 03:22:11,680 --> 03:22:14,440 Speaker 5: like a narrative that migration fits in. It gets, certainly 3210 03:22:14,560 --> 03:22:18,199 Speaker 5: by national outlets forgotten with the end of Title forty 3211 03:22:18,200 --> 03:22:22,360 Speaker 5: two in May. I think everyone had their like sort 3212 03:22:22,360 --> 03:22:26,360 Speaker 5: of doomsday op eds in the weeks beforehand, and then 3213 03:22:26,560 --> 03:22:30,000 Speaker 5: that that didn't actually happen in the way that it 3214 03:22:30,240 --> 03:22:33,640 Speaker 5: had been sort of like quote unquote experts who don't 3215 03:22:33,680 --> 03:22:35,879 Speaker 5: come to the border very often had predicted it would, 3216 03:22:35,959 --> 03:22:39,280 Speaker 5: and so folks turned up, especially at Whiskey eight, and 3217 03:22:39,440 --> 03:22:43,080 Speaker 5: did the sort of crisis story. But we haven't seen 3218 03:22:43,120 --> 03:22:43,879 Speaker 5: that this time. 3219 03:22:44,560 --> 03:22:49,560 Speaker 12: And you know, now it's appearing really different because, like 3220 03:22:49,680 --> 03:22:54,520 Speaker 12: you see sort of the management by border patrol of 3221 03:22:56,360 --> 03:23:01,840 Speaker 12: the situation in order to sort of shield the public 3222 03:23:01,920 --> 03:23:05,360 Speaker 12: from like the true level of the crisis. So in 3223 03:23:05,520 --> 03:23:10,320 Speaker 12: claiming that Umba has been cleared, I suppose that's technically 3224 03:23:10,720 --> 03:23:13,560 Speaker 12: correct if they're referring to the you know, they're relying 3225 03:23:13,640 --> 03:23:16,920 Speaker 12: on reality in order to so people, the average everyday 3226 03:23:16,959 --> 03:23:18,879 Speaker 12: person that's not immersed in this is going to read 3227 03:23:18,879 --> 03:23:20,560 Speaker 12: that and they're like, oh good, it's been cleared. Because like, 3228 03:23:21,080 --> 03:23:23,480 Speaker 12: my family back home knows a lot of like really 3229 03:23:23,520 --> 03:23:26,560 Speaker 12: conservative folks Outland par Valley, and like even the most 3230 03:23:26,600 --> 03:23:29,360 Speaker 12: conservative people I knew back in May were like, oh 3231 03:23:29,400 --> 03:23:31,720 Speaker 12: my gosh, how could they have babies out there in 3232 03:23:31,800 --> 03:23:32,320 Speaker 12: the desert. 3233 03:23:32,400 --> 03:23:33,240 Speaker 13: That's so horrible. 3234 03:23:33,280 --> 03:23:36,040 Speaker 12: And people had, you know, a lot of really strong 3235 03:23:36,320 --> 03:23:41,800 Speaker 12: emotions to seeing families huddled in the desert for a week. Now, 3236 03:23:42,160 --> 03:23:46,240 Speaker 12: it seems like there's a really deliberate management of like 3237 03:23:46,560 --> 03:23:49,400 Speaker 12: the pr with respect to this situation. 3238 03:23:50,040 --> 03:23:50,760 Speaker 5: So yeah, like. 3239 03:23:50,840 --> 03:23:53,520 Speaker 12: Relying on the technicality of Hakumba being cleared because the 3240 03:23:53,600 --> 03:23:56,800 Speaker 12: main camp in town has been cleared, but ten fifteen 3241 03:23:56,840 --> 03:24:00,280 Speaker 12: minutes away, there's still hundreds of people, and we're the 3242 03:24:00,360 --> 03:24:02,520 Speaker 12: ones that are out on social media screaming into the 3243 03:24:02,600 --> 03:24:05,840 Speaker 12: void into each other. Hey, this is still happening, people 3244 03:24:06,120 --> 03:24:08,800 Speaker 12: are you know, there's an amputee out here whose leg 3245 03:24:08,920 --> 03:24:12,080 Speaker 12: is bleeding. There is someone out here who hasn't had 3246 03:24:12,120 --> 03:24:14,280 Speaker 12: his heart medication for a week. Like those kind of 3247 03:24:14,320 --> 03:24:18,119 Speaker 12: situations are occurring still, while the report and the public 3248 03:24:18,160 --> 03:24:20,320 Speaker 12: perception is like, ohhkum has been cleared, it's all good. 3249 03:24:21,120 --> 03:24:24,720 Speaker 12: So unless somebody is like already involved, they're generally not 3250 03:24:24,840 --> 03:24:25,480 Speaker 12: hearing about it. 3251 03:24:25,640 --> 03:24:27,360 Speaker 13: And I think that's on purpose too. 3252 03:24:28,320 --> 03:24:31,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's Yeah, that's a very 3253 03:24:31,959 --> 03:24:34,280 Speaker 5: that's a very niche technicality. It might not be within 3254 03:24:34,360 --> 03:24:36,440 Speaker 5: the boundaries of the town of a Cumba, but like 3255 03:24:37,040 --> 03:24:40,640 Speaker 5: people are still being corraled in the desert with no services, right, 3256 03:24:41,000 --> 03:24:44,240 Speaker 5: and that that's what we should care about, not which 3257 03:24:44,360 --> 03:24:47,560 Speaker 5: district they're in or what have you. So I think 3258 03:24:47,720 --> 03:24:50,600 Speaker 5: people have probably heard why now that things are bad 3259 03:24:50,680 --> 03:24:52,240 Speaker 5: and we don't know how bad they will be, and 3260 03:24:52,320 --> 03:24:54,240 Speaker 5: then maybe they'll get worse, maybe they'll get better, and 3261 03:24:54,720 --> 03:24:57,400 Speaker 5: hopefully they'll want to support. So how can people do that? Like, 3262 03:24:57,520 --> 03:25:01,600 Speaker 5: what what resource? Like what I guess the concrete actions 3263 03:25:01,640 --> 03:25:03,280 Speaker 5: can they take? Where can they give you money? How 3264 03:25:03,320 --> 03:25:05,279 Speaker 5: can they send you supplies if they want to volunteer 3265 03:25:05,320 --> 03:25:07,840 Speaker 5: in there in the county, how can they do that? 3266 03:25:08,000 --> 03:25:10,400 Speaker 5: And what kind of volunteers are most needed? 3267 03:25:11,000 --> 03:25:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, for Border Kindness, monetary donations are the biggest help 3268 03:25:15,760 --> 03:25:19,600 Speaker 1: that allows us to meet current needs, daily needs. We're 3269 03:25:19,720 --> 03:25:24,119 Speaker 1: on venmo at Border dash Kindness Cash app at Border 3270 03:25:24,200 --> 03:25:28,600 Speaker 1: Kindness Cash, they'll info at Borderkindness dot Org. 3271 03:25:31,840 --> 03:25:41,400 Speaker 12: Volunteering volunteering is pretty sensitive, We're not We understand that 3272 03:25:43,160 --> 03:25:46,040 Speaker 12: our team is already incredibly taxed, so we do need 3273 03:25:46,080 --> 03:25:50,720 Speaker 12: support in terms of like food preparation and getting supplies 3274 03:25:50,720 --> 03:25:54,760 Speaker 12: out there, transporting supplies, but it is a very sensitive situation, 3275 03:25:55,120 --> 03:26:01,080 Speaker 12: so we do want to I don't know if vet 3276 03:26:01,280 --> 03:26:05,120 Speaker 12: or we want to be able to talk to the 3277 03:26:05,160 --> 03:26:11,160 Speaker 12: people that want to volunteer, so certain expectations that they 3278 03:26:11,240 --> 03:26:14,000 Speaker 12: may have or some certain needs that we may have 3279 03:26:14,120 --> 03:26:19,320 Speaker 12: are all communicated really clearly. So the organization very amazingly 3280 03:26:19,600 --> 03:26:25,200 Speaker 12: agreed to help us with that task of screening volunteers. 3281 03:26:25,480 --> 03:26:28,880 Speaker 12: So people, if they are wanting to do so and 3282 03:26:28,959 --> 03:26:35,320 Speaker 12: come out to Hakumba, to email volunteer at Ala dot org. 3283 03:26:36,120 --> 03:26:37,920 Speaker 5: Perfect, Yeah, that's pretty good. 3284 03:26:38,400 --> 03:26:40,600 Speaker 12: Yeah, I'll send you that info and they can just 3285 03:26:40,640 --> 03:26:43,400 Speaker 12: say like what are they interested in doing, where they're 3286 03:26:43,440 --> 03:26:45,240 Speaker 12: located and that sort of thing, and then we'll be 3287 03:26:45,280 --> 03:26:52,360 Speaker 12: in touch. Primarily, I mean more than anything, Like twenty 3288 03:26:52,400 --> 03:26:55,240 Speaker 12: dollars is a tarp to cover a family and keep 3289 03:26:55,320 --> 03:26:56,760 Speaker 12: somebody shielded from the wind. 3290 03:26:59,160 --> 03:27:01,039 Speaker 13: We can feed a lot of people with one hundred dollars. 3291 03:27:02,040 --> 03:27:07,040 Speaker 12: So financial support is the most direct way, even though 3292 03:27:07,080 --> 03:27:12,279 Speaker 12: it's not necessarily always feasible for people, it is the most. 3293 03:27:12,560 --> 03:27:14,400 Speaker 13: Efficient way for us to be able to buy items 3294 03:27:14,440 --> 03:27:14,880 Speaker 13: in bulk. 3295 03:27:15,560 --> 03:27:18,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think even five bucks, right, Like maybe that's 3296 03:27:18,160 --> 03:27:19,800 Speaker 5: two people and it really makes a day to have 3297 03:27:19,840 --> 03:27:20,400 Speaker 5: a whole meal. 3298 03:27:20,800 --> 03:27:21,320 Speaker 8: Oh my gosh. 3299 03:27:21,440 --> 03:27:23,080 Speaker 13: Yeah, anything helps. 3300 03:27:23,440 --> 03:27:25,680 Speaker 5: So yeah, people can definitely do this. How about for 3301 03:27:25,800 --> 03:27:28,080 Speaker 5: American French service cammit be better? How can people donate 3302 03:27:28,360 --> 03:27:29,360 Speaker 5: volunteer help? 3303 03:27:30,360 --> 03:27:32,480 Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean I would. I would also stress what 3304 03:27:32,840 --> 03:27:36,280 Speaker 11: Jacqueline said in terms of vetting people and volunteers. It's 3305 03:27:36,760 --> 03:27:39,400 Speaker 11: you know, it's not it's not easy work, and we 3306 03:27:39,480 --> 03:27:42,480 Speaker 11: want to make sure that when people are volunteering that 3307 03:27:42,600 --> 03:27:47,520 Speaker 11: there's a certain level of emotional strength that people are 3308 03:27:47,560 --> 03:27:51,360 Speaker 11: able to have. It's very tough work. And at the 3309 03:27:51,440 --> 03:27:54,640 Speaker 11: same time make sure that what we're doing does not 3310 03:27:54,959 --> 03:28:00,320 Speaker 11: negatively impact those that we are presuming to want to help, right, 3311 03:28:00,400 --> 03:28:04,119 Speaker 11: and so that's important. I think going through those channels. 3312 03:28:04,200 --> 03:28:07,120 Speaker 11: If you you know the folks that are leading the 3313 03:28:09,360 --> 03:28:13,360 Speaker 11: work at the transit centers, check in with them first. 3314 03:28:14,640 --> 03:28:16,080 Speaker 11: But then there are other things that could be done. 3315 03:28:16,120 --> 03:28:18,640 Speaker 11: The other day, someone showed up with twenty boxes of pizza, 3316 03:28:19,280 --> 03:28:24,120 Speaker 11: you know, a very useful, easy way to support connecting 3317 03:28:24,200 --> 03:28:27,520 Speaker 11: with people and finding out what the needs are. That's 3318 03:28:27,560 --> 03:28:31,800 Speaker 11: another way. If if you would rather purchase the tarps yourselves, 3319 03:28:31,879 --> 03:28:35,560 Speaker 11: for instance, do that and then we can pick them 3320 03:28:35,640 --> 03:28:38,959 Speaker 11: up we can find out how to meet and pick 3321 03:28:39,080 --> 03:28:42,560 Speaker 11: up those items. If you want to donate. There are 3322 03:28:42,920 --> 03:28:46,640 Speaker 11: multiple organizations doing this work. I believe someone was working 3323 03:28:46,680 --> 03:28:49,720 Speaker 11: on a list to produce for us. Going on the 3324 03:28:49,760 --> 03:28:53,880 Speaker 11: website AFC dot org and being sure that you find 3325 03:28:53,959 --> 03:28:58,040 Speaker 11: our locations San Diego, so that our program then receives 3326 03:28:58,080 --> 03:29:00,760 Speaker 11: that donation directly. If the program goes to the overall 3327 03:29:00,760 --> 03:29:02,360 Speaker 11: a f C, we won't see it. 3328 03:29:02,520 --> 03:29:03,760 Speaker 8: So just be very. 3329 03:29:04,240 --> 03:29:07,840 Speaker 11: Mindful of when you're donating to a f CFC dot org. 3330 03:29:08,320 --> 03:29:11,480 Speaker 11: First locate the Sending a program office and then find 3331 03:29:11,520 --> 03:29:15,240 Speaker 11: the donate page on there so that we can be 3332 03:29:15,360 --> 03:29:19,960 Speaker 11: assured that you are sending it to our program, or 3333 03:29:20,120 --> 03:29:22,920 Speaker 11: you can definitely contact me and I could also assist 3334 03:29:22,959 --> 03:29:23,320 Speaker 11: you with that. 3335 03:29:24,400 --> 03:29:26,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's great. I think it's important that 3336 03:29:26,160 --> 03:29:29,200 Speaker 5: both if you sort of centered with regard to volunteering, 3337 03:29:29,280 --> 03:29:32,840 Speaker 5: that like there are organizations that exist to serve volunteers 3338 03:29:32,920 --> 03:29:35,560 Speaker 5: through facilitating like a service experience to them, and that 3339 03:29:35,680 --> 03:29:38,040 Speaker 5: that's not what is happening here, Like this is about 3340 03:29:38,480 --> 03:29:41,320 Speaker 5: serving people who are very vulnerable, So like there has 3341 03:29:41,360 --> 03:29:44,240 Speaker 5: to be some kind of vetting process and people have 3342 03:29:44,360 --> 03:29:46,760 Speaker 5: to understand that, like that's part of keeping those people 3343 03:29:46,840 --> 03:29:51,119 Speaker 5: safe and that that's why that's happening. So yeah, thank 3344 03:29:51,240 --> 03:29:54,000 Speaker 5: thank you very much for this. We'll keep covering it obviously, 3345 03:29:55,160 --> 03:30:00,120 Speaker 5: and I really hope people can find some resources to 3346 03:30:00,200 --> 03:30:03,520 Speaker 5: donate because it's been very taxing financially and all these 3347 03:30:03,560 --> 03:30:06,960 Speaker 5: groups and in our community generally. Is there anything else 3348 03:30:07,000 --> 03:30:09,240 Speaker 5: you guys would like to share before we finish up? 3349 03:30:10,440 --> 03:30:13,120 Speaker 11: The only thing I would add is that you know, 3350 03:30:13,240 --> 03:30:16,320 Speaker 11: pressing the authorities. That's the other way. If you are 3351 03:30:16,400 --> 03:30:20,960 Speaker 11: able to connect with the county, you know, your county 3352 03:30:21,040 --> 03:30:23,920 Speaker 11: supervisor in San Diego, press on them that they have 3353 03:30:24,040 --> 03:30:27,680 Speaker 11: a responsibility and an obligation to respond to this in 3354 03:30:27,760 --> 03:30:31,720 Speaker 11: a way that supports people who need to support And 3355 03:30:32,000 --> 03:30:33,680 Speaker 11: that's where I would push towards. 3356 03:30:34,480 --> 03:30:36,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'll add to that that having spoken to people 3357 03:30:36,800 --> 03:30:39,240 Speaker 5: in the county and then in state office, like if 3358 03:30:39,280 --> 03:30:41,880 Speaker 5: you call, that makes more difference, and if you email, 3359 03:30:42,080 --> 03:30:45,000 Speaker 5: so if you have the time to make a phone call, 3360 03:30:45,600 --> 03:30:48,920 Speaker 5: that could help a lot. Anything else from you, James Jaqueline, 3361 03:30:49,760 --> 03:30:50,039 Speaker 5: That's what. 3362 03:30:50,080 --> 03:30:51,960 Speaker 1: I can think of. I mean, everything changes daily, so 3363 03:30:52,360 --> 03:30:54,200 Speaker 1: if we were the record them so every single day, 3364 03:30:54,200 --> 03:30:55,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure I could come with something new. 3365 03:30:55,680 --> 03:30:55,840 Speaker 5: Yeah. 3366 03:30:55,920 --> 03:31:00,360 Speaker 12: Yeah, for people to stay clued in with pannels of 3367 03:31:00,400 --> 03:31:03,840 Speaker 12: communications such as this podcast that are actually with people 3368 03:31:03,879 --> 03:31:07,520 Speaker 12: on the ground and share that with their community is 3369 03:31:07,560 --> 03:31:10,800 Speaker 12: really important. Like we're already getting like some social media 3370 03:31:11,000 --> 03:31:13,560 Speaker 12: kind of comments. I mean, it happens every time about 3371 03:31:13,600 --> 03:31:16,640 Speaker 12: how we're aiding and abetting people breaking the law. But 3372 03:31:16,720 --> 03:31:20,160 Speaker 12: it's the government breaking the law. They're breaking international asylum law. 3373 03:31:20,640 --> 03:31:25,280 Speaker 12: And it's really important for people who aren't as versed 3374 03:31:25,360 --> 03:31:27,760 Speaker 12: in all of this to stay aware of that that 3375 03:31:27,920 --> 03:31:31,440 Speaker 12: everybody who is presenting for asylum has a legal right 3376 03:31:31,520 --> 03:31:31,880 Speaker 12: to do so. 3377 03:31:32,080 --> 03:31:32,840 Speaker 13: Not that it matters. 3378 03:31:32,879 --> 03:31:37,520 Speaker 12: I mean they have, like it's a humanitarian right, yes, 3379 03:31:38,440 --> 03:31:41,040 Speaker 12: but for people who are very concerned with legality, or 3380 03:31:41,160 --> 03:31:47,120 Speaker 12: at least they lean heavily on legality, presenting for asylum 3381 03:31:47,280 --> 03:31:52,800 Speaker 12: is illegally protected right, and that's something that is actually being. 3382 03:31:56,000 --> 03:31:59,200 Speaker 13: Cut short by the government in violation of that. 3383 03:32:00,120 --> 03:32:02,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you're right. It doesn't really matter. Like 3384 03:32:02,120 --> 03:32:03,720 Speaker 5: I really don't give a shit about. 3385 03:32:03,520 --> 03:32:08,440 Speaker 13: Like, yeah, come back people that really about. 3386 03:32:07,600 --> 03:32:07,960 Speaker 1: It, you know. 3387 03:32:08,480 --> 03:32:10,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, it's good to it's good to remind 3388 03:32:10,480 --> 03:32:14,120 Speaker 5: them that they are wrong, both morally and legally exactly. Yeah, 3389 03:32:14,280 --> 03:32:16,480 Speaker 5: So what would your social media SPA. If people wanted 3390 03:32:16,480 --> 03:32:18,240 Speaker 5: to keep up to date with what's happening. 3391 03:32:19,879 --> 03:32:23,880 Speaker 13: Border Kindness on Instagram tends to have the most up 3392 03:32:23,920 --> 03:32:27,120 Speaker 13: to date common I mean shares of like what we're doing, 3393 03:32:28,200 --> 03:32:31,880 Speaker 13: and that will have updates in our stories and our 3394 03:32:31,959 --> 03:32:34,680 Speaker 13: posts of how to help what's going on. 3395 03:32:35,080 --> 03:32:35,800 Speaker 5: How about you, Petri. 3396 03:32:37,320 --> 03:32:39,480 Speaker 11: We're we're terrible with our social media, but you can 3397 03:32:39,520 --> 03:32:41,880 Speaker 11: definitely find some of our work there a f C 3398 03:32:42,879 --> 03:32:46,279 Speaker 11: San Diego. Just look for a f C San Diego 3399 03:32:46,560 --> 03:32:54,120 Speaker 11: minus Pederal Pedro mostly on on Twitter, some ig and 3400 03:32:56,520 --> 03:32:59,240 Speaker 11: I'll be updating some items later today. 3401 03:33:00,080 --> 03:33:00,280 Speaker 8: Fact. 3402 03:33:00,360 --> 03:33:03,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, one more question, because people contacted me in May 3403 03:33:03,760 --> 03:33:06,040 Speaker 5: to ask if they could donate air miles to facilitate 3404 03:33:06,120 --> 03:33:09,360 Speaker 5: travel for folks after they've been paroled into the US. 3405 03:33:09,840 --> 03:33:11,800 Speaker 5: Is that something that AFSC can do? 3406 03:33:14,440 --> 03:33:16,960 Speaker 11: There is another organization that I'm not sure that's what 3407 03:33:17,040 --> 03:33:19,760 Speaker 11: you just mentioned a now, the Miles for Migrants. 3408 03:33:20,320 --> 03:33:21,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, Miles for Migrants, Yeah. 3409 03:33:21,480 --> 03:33:26,039 Speaker 11: Absolutely, absolutely a wonderful organization and that we've used through 3410 03:33:26,080 --> 03:33:29,560 Speaker 11: some of our other assists organizations and getting people to 3411 03:33:29,600 --> 03:33:32,160 Speaker 11: their final destinations. I would say that might be the 3412 03:33:32,240 --> 03:33:32,960 Speaker 11: best way right now. 3413 03:33:33,240 --> 03:33:34,879 Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, so that's the thing people can do if 3414 03:33:34,920 --> 03:33:37,440 Speaker 5: they happen to have a surplus of those. And great, 3415 03:33:37,480 --> 03:33:39,600 Speaker 5: thank you so much for your time. I know you're 3416 03:33:39,640 --> 03:33:43,840 Speaker 5: all extremely busy. I appreciate it. And yeah, hopefully people 3417 03:33:43,920 --> 03:33:46,080 Speaker 5: listening will find a way to support if they can. 3418 03:33:46,840 --> 03:33:48,560 Speaker 5: Thanks guys, great, thank you. 3419 03:33:52,360 --> 03:33:55,520 Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3420 03:33:55,600 --> 03:33:57,480 Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3421 03:33:58,120 --> 03:34:00,440 Speaker 7: It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3422 03:34:00,680 --> 03:34:03,359 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3423 03:34:03,400 --> 03:34:06,520 Speaker 3: Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3424 03:34:06,520 --> 03:34:09,720 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3425 03:34:09,760 --> 03:34:12,400 Speaker 3: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 3426 03:34:12,480 --> 03:34:14,680 Speaker 3: Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. 3427 03:34:14,879 --> 03:34:15,680 Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.