WEBVTT - Behind the Scenes Minis: Oh, Kropotkin! 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:14.480 of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:18.280 and I'm Holly Frye. We spent all of this week 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:24.799 talking about Peter Kerpotkin and anarchistic communism, not something we 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:27.880 have spent a lot of time really diving into on 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:32.280 the show before. I thought about doing this episode during 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.879 early COVID. It didn't work out, but it was because 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.839 there was such flourishing is the wrong word, because it 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:44.080 was happening in response to a government action that was 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:49.199 not happening, but like there was an influx of mutual 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.320 aid programs, organizations of people trying to like work in 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:55.840 their own communities, trying to help people, trying to meet 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:59.640 needs that were not being met, of which there were many. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.280 And I realized pretty quickly that it was it would 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:08.000 need to be a much bigger episode than what I 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.480 was sort of thinking. Right, I just didn't quite have it. 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.200 But then here we are now in the year twenty 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.160 twenty six, Still a lot of need happening, Still a 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.640 lot of mutual support and aid going on for a 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:26.480 lot of different reasons. Still also a lot of calls 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:34.080 for change, in the government the US, and Wow, at 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:39.440 least for me, I don't know why why algorithms, algorithms 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.600 think that I want this, but I am continually being 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:50.040 served discourse about like people who want to make reforms 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.760 within the existing government of the United States and people 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:56.960 who want to throw it all out and start over, 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:02.280 just what kurpot can advocating. Yeah, I mean, I think 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.200 if you're I think, if you're in any way looking 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.480 at anything political these days, you're going to get that eventually, 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.760 because I get it too, just the same arguments over 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.639 and over. There are a lot of things that Krapotkin 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.720 wrote about that I definitely find appealing. So I love 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:24.919 the idea of everybody having enough and nobody being left behind, 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.560 and nobody being you know, under the thumb of an 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:34.280 oppressive government machine, all of that in favor of But 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.720 I'm also like, we live in such an even more 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:46.160 globally interconnected world than during Krapotkin's lifetime, right right, just 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:50.320 vastly vastly interconnected. Like I was sort of just thinking 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.959 this morning, I was like, international air travel, how would 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.720 one do that without governments? And some people are probably like, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.360 we just wouldn't have international air trap anymore. I mean, 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.000 which I just think of Star Trek. They figured it out, 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:11.960 they did well, there was still like there were still governments, right, Yeah, 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:18.000 So like the the communism slash socialism questions like those 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.160 are there's one. That's one set of questions. Yeah, and 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:26.359 like the sort of Star Trek utopia of everyone having 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:33.440 enough and they're not being you know, capitalist monetary structures happening. Yeah, 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.400 Like that's one thing, but the not having governments like 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.520 that is an additional whole thing. Yeah, I mean I 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.000 think it starts to be like how do you define 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:47.360 a government? Right? Like could there be a coalition of 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:52.240 transportation organizations that enable something like that? But then so 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:57.160 you know, if they are all all of this depends 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:03.920 on like the goodwill out truism and noble efforts of humans, 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.280 which is where things get tricky because if you had 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:12.760 a coalition of transportation organizations that we're doing this outside 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:17.000 of government, things like regulations would not be an issue 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.239 because they would all be trying to do the best 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.760 by all things. Yeah, I'm about to invoke Anakin and 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.600 padme right, Like that's the problem is that I'm literally 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.800 working through this as I'm talking. Right, there's that whole Listen. 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:31.880 I know, not everybody likes Attack of the Clones, and 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:36.080 that's fine, But there's that whole Meadow scene where he 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:40.160 describes what he thinks how he thinks government should work, 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:43.280 and he said, it's just me smart people getting together 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:44.880 and talking through and she's like, what do you think 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:49.800 we're doing, Doc, That's exactly what we're up to. But 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:54.600 everybody doesn't agree, and that's the tricky part. Yeah. Yeah, 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.120 there's a lot going on there. There are a lot 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.240 of things that felt to me very idealistic in his 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.400 writing at the time that he was writing it, in 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:08.400 the late nineteenth early twentieth century. And then I was like, 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:13.080 and then now, on top of that, we have an 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:20.000 internationally interconnected food supply chain. Yeah, right, and so if 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:25.120 there were to be a giant revolution, it would have 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.680 to happen in a way that doesn't lead to lead 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.120 to a collapse of the food chain and people starving, right, 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:36.479 And it's just like, yeah, unending questions and issues. I 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:42.400 do wonder if he were alive today, I would want 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:47.240 to read his thoughts about the billionaire class that has 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:52.880 emerged in the world and individual people having enough money 0:05:52.920 --> 0:06:00.200 and power to like buy information distribution channels like newspapers 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.000 and just used them to whatever end. I mean, I 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.560 think we can extrapolate how he would feel about it, 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.240 but I would love to hear I would love to 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.520 hear his words on it, because I enjoyed I enjoyed 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.120 reading his writing a lot. Ye, a couple of random 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.400 things that I cut out of the episode because I 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.039 just kept getting longer and longer. When he was a kid, 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.480 he used his brother. Number one. One of their big 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.680 amusements as a family was to go to plays and 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.119 to the ballet, right, and so he and his brother 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.800 and then I'm assuming like younger half siblings after they 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:39.200 were born, they would amuse themselves by putting on plays 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.200 at home. And their stage was the door between their 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.400 bedroom and the classroom, because that was divided with a curtain. 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:51.680 And I was like, I love that. That's perfect, absolutely 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:56.239 great natural perscenium in place. Yeah, I love it. Also, 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:02.560 multiple sources that I read about him, or lectures that 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.960 I listened to or whatever, all took a moment to 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:15.040 talk about his social identity opinions. A lot of anarchists 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:20.680 in the late nineteenth early twentieth century were also like 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:25.160 sex reformers, and we're calling for things like free love, 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:32.320 acceptance of relationships regardless of people's sex or gender. Right, 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.200 if did I already say free love, free love? If 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.840 I didn't already say that, you did. And it seems 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:43.040 like Krapotkin not one of those people and was more 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:48.840 conservative along those lines. And there are some interpretations of 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.920 him that come to the conclusion that he was homophobic. 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.200 And apparently one of the things that has led to 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:59.640 this conclusion is that when Oscar Wilde was on trial, 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:06.720 Oscar Wilde was a huge fan of Kerpotkin and Kerpotkin's 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.640 writing and political thought, and Oscar Wilde wrote to him 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:16.000 for help, and he didn't acknowledge or respond to it, apparently, 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.840 and people have interpreted that as like him not being 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:24.200 in support of Oscar Wilde. And then I have also 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.560 read that he had conversations with Emma Goldman, who was 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:32.640 on the more like sex reform side of the anarchist movement, 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:37.400 and that Emma Goldman modernized his opinions a little bit. 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:46.000 But I didn't find documentation or quotes or anything about 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.000 any of that. It was like I kept hearing people 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.080 make those same arguments, and I couldn't trace them back 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:57.040 to source material somewhere, And I also didn't have a 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.679 good place to put any of that discussion in the 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:04.800 actual episodes, right, especially when it's nebulous. Yeah there was. Yeah, 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.320 nebulus is a good word. We talked about how his 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:14.600 language of the time reflected words like savage that are 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.440 unacceptable today but were in wide use. So it's not 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:23.000 totally surprising to me that someone who was raised in 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.680 the society that he was raised in would still have 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:32.200 biases that maybe other parts of the movement would be 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.720 on a different perspective on. I mean, especially when you 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:43.680 consider his origins, right, Like right, I mean, I'm marvel 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:49.480 at somebody who literally is born into extraordinary privilege and 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.560 is like, let's get rid of all of that, Like 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.960 that's a very unusual thing in and of itself, But 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.080 like he still has that hardwiring of like, yeah, this 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:04.800 is how the social more's work, and he's probably not 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.400 even cognizant that that's just like part of the conditioning 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.840 you get as a kid in that environment. So you know, 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.160 totally possible that he never really thought about it until 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.760 Emma Goldman was in my imagination, like, hey, what were 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.680 you doing with Oscar Wilde not answering Well, I mean 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.440 I can see a world where like he didn't know 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.360 how to answer and was thinking it over and it 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.000 got away from him. I mean, yeah, sure, I do 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.920 that with just completely benign texts from people where I'm like, 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:36.400 I don't know the answer to that question. I got 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.520 to think about it. Yeah. Two weeks later, do you 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:42.520 hate me? Oh no, I just forgot. Oh yeah. I 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.400 literally had that happen with an email that a listener 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:49.920 sent to us asking for a contact elsewhere in my heart, 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:54.400 and I didn't know who to direct them to. And 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:56.640 I sent a note to someone asking if they knew 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.280 and it was not in my brain anymore, and that 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.440 person didn't get back to me, and I didn't follow 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:04.560 up on it, and then I found an email in 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:08.760 my drafts like three weeks later. I was like, whoops, uh, oh, 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:20.800 sorry about that. Happens all the time. One of the 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.320 articles that I read for this was by a scholar 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:27.240 from Russia and said that a lot of work on 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:33.080 Krapotkin and on anarchism is still basically banned in Russia today. 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:39.320 Oh wow, which is like unsurprising. But also I couldn't 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:44.200 figure out how to really confirm that right to what 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.440 extent That's just that's a very broad thing to go 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:50.120 try to track down, right. I mean, I feel like 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:56.400 it's harder and harder to ban information right in places 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:00.400 that have internet access. Yeah. But also I think about 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.600 like the stuff that came up when we were talking 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.480 about France banning various things right in the Tayefield Steinlin 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.160 episode where I love the work around of like I'm 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.800 just gonna go across the border and have my pamphlet 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.719 printed and then I'll come back with it. Everything's cool now, 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:19.760 everybody'd be cool. Yeah. Yeah, even with like you know, 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.400 the so called Great Firewall in China, like there are 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:27.120 still ways to get information around things. Yeah. I think 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.840 the last random thing that I had written on my 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.080 list of random things to talk about was the fact 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.360 that the sun went down at three o'clock in the 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:41.040 evening when he was in prison, because living in Massachusetts, 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:45.480 where in the wintertime the sun is down by like 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.880 four fifteen or four thirty, Yeah, for part of the winter, 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.080 Like the idea of it being even earlier than that, 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.480 I was like, that hurts my heart for you that 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:00.480 you were not only was the sun going down early. 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.640 But also you were in prison for it. But he 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.839 had books to read, so at least there was that, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.040 I mean, the imprisoned part I get. I don't care 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.880 about the sun so much. I have a hard time 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.320 in the winter. I know I have a like I've 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:21.880 never been formally diagnosed with, like seasonal effective disorder or 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.160 anything like that. Yeah, but I have a noticeable pattern 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:31.640 of feelings and behavior over the cold, dark winter months. 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.880 I do, but I call it winter rage disorder because 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.800 I don't care if it's dark, but I hate being 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.600 cold so much that it makes me angry. Yeah. And 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.400 I will say we had a very mild winter this year, 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:45.880 and while I don't like what that means in the 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:51.840 bigger picture, it was nice to not get angry. Yeah, 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.720 we did not have that. Yeah, you guys kept getting 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.000 like piles of snow at every turn. Yeah. That just 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.920 did not go away for a really long time. Yeah. 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.880 I went on an actual, for real hike this weekend. 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.360 I had been on walks. Hike is a little different thing, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.320 both because of like weather and because of time, and 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.959 there it gets to a point where when everything is melted, 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.640 I know the places where I can usually go hiking 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.720 are gonna be swampy, and I was not really up 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.600 for the swampiness. But yeah, I will say I am 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:31.720 not seeking advice on what to do about my winter stuff. 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.440 But things that do help me are making sure I 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:42.240 am getting enough vitamin D, including whenever the weather permits 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:46.520 going outside. Yeah, it helps me a lot, helps me 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.440 a lot. Yeah, I'm like twenty percent vampire DNA. I 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.040 think I just don't care. Yeah, yeah, I can't. If 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.800 I've said before, before I was born, my dad was 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.840 in the Army and he was stationed at Alaska, and 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.080 my mom also struggled with the cold dark of Alaska, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.680 and she made homemade chocolate chip cookies every week because 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:13.120 that made their their you know, their apartment or wherever 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.440 they were living, smell so nice. Yeah, to have freshly 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.640 baked cookies, which I love it. I love it. I mean, 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.680 you don't have to wait for you know, miserable weather. 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.160 You could just do that, yeah, for fun. Yeah. I'm 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:31.760 also very fond of Peter Kropotkin, and I think there 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.800 are people who people who are fans of Peter Kerpotkin 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:42.320 really really love him. So I hope those folks who 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:46.640 maybe in the audience think we did him justice. There 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.800 are things we didn't even mention that, like that he 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:54.560 wrote a book on Russian literature. Yeah, all kinds of stuff, 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.600 Like if if people were still calling people polymaths as much. 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:03.280 I feel like that that label of polymath was not 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.320 quite as frequent in its use at the very very 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.320 end of the nineteenth beginning of the twentieth century. I 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:15.560 more saw him described as a scientist and a political philosopher, 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:21.960 not as a polymath. But I think polymath also suits him. Yeah. 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:23.960 I will confess there were times where we would read 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.280 a passage of his and I would have to refrain 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:39.400 from going right on. Yeah, yeah, Whatever is happening coming 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.240 up on your weekend, I hope it includes things that 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.800 make you say right on, And you know, if not, 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:47.960 then I hope you're able to have some quiet, some 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.520 moments to yourself, something that will be rejuvenative and restoring 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.880 that you're able to take a couple moments to care 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.680 for yourself and for the people around you. We will 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.120 be back on Monday with a brand new episode. I 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.480 don't know if I know what it's going to be about. 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:14.080 We be back with a Saturday Classic Tomorrow stuff you 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.240 missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:21.760 more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:23.919 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.