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Speaker 1: Hypnosis is a state of highly focused attention. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever gotten so caught up in a good movie that

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Speaker 1: you kind of forget you're watching a movie? Absolutely, you

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Speaker 1: become part of the movie instead of part of the audience.

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Speaker 2: World renowned psychiatrist expert on self hypnosis, doctor David.

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Speaker 1: Spiegel, How do we change ourselves? Deal with the aspect

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Speaker 1: of the threat and you can control it? Wow, your

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Speaker 1: boss may have said something awful to you, but your

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Speaker 1: body doesn't have to react that way.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible to control others with hypnosis?

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Speaker 1: The number one health and well in the.

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Speaker 3: Podcast Jay Shet, Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose,

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Speaker 3: the place you come to become the happier, healthier and

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Speaker 3: more healed.

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Speaker 2: You know that I love sitting down with thought leaders

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Speaker 2: and experts who introduce us to new modalities and ideas

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Speaker 2: and insights that can improve our daily lives. Today's guest

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Speaker 2: is someone I've been really excited to talk to. I'm

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Speaker 2: speaking to doctor David Spiegel, who's a Wilson Professor and

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Speaker 2: Associate Chair of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, director of the

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Speaker 2: Center on Stress and Health, and medical director of the

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Speaker 2: Center for Integrative Medicine at Stanford University School of Medicine.

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Speaker 2: Doctor David Spiegel is the founder of Reverie, the world's

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Speaker 2: first interactive self hypnosis app. You can download it as

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Speaker 2: soon as you want to while you're listening to this conversation.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Spiegel has more than forty five years of clinical

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Speaker 2: and research expertise, has published thirteen books, four hundred and

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Speaker 2: four scientific journal articles, and his work has been supported

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Speaker 2: by the National Institute of Mental Health, the National Cancer Institute,

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Speaker 2: and so many more. Please welcome to On Purpose, doctor

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Speaker 2: David Spiegel. David, it's great to have you here. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for being here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Jay. I'm delighted to be here

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Speaker 1: talking with you.

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Speaker 2: I'm so fascinated by your work and I'm so excited

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Speaker 2: I get to bring it to my community and audience.

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Speaker 2: And I wanted to start off because I really want

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Speaker 2: to take the audience on a journey today to really understand.

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Speaker 2: I think hypnotherapy and hypnosis are words and ideas and

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Speaker 2: things that we've heard about for a long period of time,

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Speaker 2: but we have a very limited understanding of what it

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Speaker 2: actually is. So I'd love to start with what is

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Speaker 2: hypnosis and what are some of the misconceptions about it.

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Speaker 1: Hypnosis is, oddly enough, the oldest Western conception of a psychotherapy,

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Speaker 1: the first time a talking interaction was thought to have

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Speaker 1: therapeutic benefit. And I think there's much overlap some of

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Speaker 1: the things you do and think like a monk, you know,

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Speaker 1: focusing on visualization, on controlling or breathing, on visualizing things

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Speaker 1: that can be ways of being different. And hypnosis is

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Speaker 1: a state of highly focused attention. It's like getting Have

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Speaker 1: you ever gotten so caught up in a good movie

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Speaker 1: that you kind of forget you're watching a movie? Absolutely

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Speaker 1: so you become part of the movie instead of part

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Speaker 1: of the audience. Now, what you're doing when you're doing

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Speaker 1: that is using for consciousness what a telephoto lens does

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Speaker 1: for a camera. You see what you see with great detail,

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Speaker 1: but you're less aware of the context. You dissociate other

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Speaker 1: things you would ordinarily be aware of. Our brains are

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Speaker 1: processing thousands of things all the time, what's going on

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Speaker 1: in the body, noises, potential threats, all kinds of things.

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Speaker 1: But in hypnosis you narrow the range of focus. And

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Speaker 1: for example, right now you're having sensations in your body

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Speaker 1: touching these nice chairs, but hopefully you weren't even aware

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Speaker 1: of that. If you're ware, we could stop the interview

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Speaker 1: right now. So we all do that. We can put

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Speaker 1: out of awareness things that would ordinarily be inawares and

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Speaker 1: hypnosis you focus intently, you dissociate, and the third thing

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Speaker 1: you do is you disconnect from your ordinary ways of

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Speaker 1: being and thinking. And this is where I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of similarity between meditation, mindfulness and what you

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Speaker 1: do in hypnosis, which is you kind of get over yourself,

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Speaker 1: but in a somewhat different way. You suspend your view

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Speaker 1: of yourself and you try out being different. Now, the

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Speaker 1: thing that scares a lot of people is that many

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Speaker 1: people have been to one of these awful stage shows,

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Speaker 1: you know, where they've seen the football coach dance like

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Speaker 1: a ball arena. And I don't like making fun of people.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, there is a point, and

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Speaker 1: the point is for us to change. And that's what

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Speaker 1: your life's work is about now, is how do we

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Speaker 1: change ourselves? How do we not get trapped in sort

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Speaker 1: of wrote desires or I love that there was a

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Speaker 1: quote you had about how life is too short to

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Speaker 1: spend your time living somebody else's life, you know, And

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Speaker 1: I think what you can do in hypnosis, in narrowing

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Speaker 1: your focus of attention in dissociating is suspend your usual

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Speaker 1: view feeling about what you're like and try out being different.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, I believe those Steve jobs Is said.

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Speaker 1: That, Yes, such Steve Jobs, such a.

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Speaker 2: Powerful message, and I really appreciate the way you're explaining

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Speaker 2: hypnosis and hypnotherapy. I find that what would you say

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Speaker 2: are the common uses or because I think again, like

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Speaker 2: you said, you've seen something on stage, or you've seen

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Speaker 2: it in a movie, and it's used to often manipulate someone,

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Speaker 2: or it's used to extract information, it's used for some

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Speaker 2: sort of heist right in the movie or entertainment world.

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Speaker 2: How would you find hypnosis or hypnotherapy being useful as individuals?

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Speaker 2: Where does it become something that any one of us

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Speaker 2: can access, use, utilize a need.

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Speaker 1: Well, the thing is that hypnosis is really a naturally

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Speaker 1: occurring ability that people have to varying degrees, but it's

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Speaker 1: something that we just don't tap. And all hypnosis is

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Speaker 1: really self hypnosis. So just like you try to teach people,

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Speaker 1: you do teach people how to meditate, how to be

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Speaker 1: mindful of what they're doing, you're helping them discover a

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Speaker 1: capacity within themselves that they can use. Hypnosis is very

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Speaker 1: similar in that sense that most people have some ability

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Speaker 1: to narrow their focus, and it's not a loss of control,

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Speaker 1: it's a gain of control. You're learning that you can

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Speaker 1: filter heart out of pain, that you can get to

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Speaker 1: sleep better, that you can manage stress in a way

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Speaker 1: that doesn't keep it proliferating, but teaches you to control it.

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Speaker 1: I saw a man yesterday who a brilliant professor, who

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Speaker 1: had radiation to his nose because he had a tumor

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Speaker 1: there that needed to be treated, and he had terrible

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Speaker 1: sensitivity in his noses, in his mouth, and he tried everything.

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Speaker 1: He tried like seven different ways to neutralize the nerve signals.

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Speaker 1: He took medications, he did all. It didn't work, and

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Speaker 1: he was getting more and more frustrated because his life

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Speaker 1: was his words and he was a tea and couldn't

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Speaker 1: stand the thought of not being able to do that

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Speaker 1: because he was so frustrated by it. And he found

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Speaker 1: with a few minutes of learning self hypnosis that he

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Speaker 1: could reduce the interference by fifty percent. He was amazed.

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Speaker 1: He said, you know, my hand is feeling light and

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Speaker 1: I feel some waves going through it, and I had

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Speaker 1: him touch his face and kind of spread those waves,

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Speaker 1: and he felt different right away. He was amazed. His

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Speaker 1: wife was sitting and watching and she said, I'm not surprised,

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Speaker 1: but it is a way of altering the way we

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Speaker 1: manage our focus of attention, our processing of sensory input,

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Speaker 1: and so literally we can filter the heart out of

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Speaker 1: the pain. We can manage stress better by focusing from

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Speaker 1: on the body up rather than the head down. You know,

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Speaker 1: we often think, well, if I just figure out what's

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Speaker 1: stressing me, and you know, decide is not a portin,

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Speaker 1: or figure out a better way to do it, I

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Speaker 1: won't be stressed. But what happens with stress is usually

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Speaker 1: it's from the up that you see something that threatens you.

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Speaker 1: We're pretty pathetic physical creatures. We don't run that fast,

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Speaker 1: we don't smell that well, we don't hear that well,

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Speaker 1: and so normally we have to re evolved because we

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Speaker 1: treated most stressors as physical threats and you better get

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Speaker 1: your heart rate up, in your blood pressure up, be

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Speaker 1: ready to fight or flee. But most of the stresses

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Speaker 1: we have now are not life threats. So if you

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Speaker 1: respond physically your body's telling your brain, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: this is really terrible, and the brain thinks, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this really I feel bad. This must be really bad,

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Speaker 1: and it's like a snowball rolling downhill. And with hypnosis,

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Speaker 1: you can deal with the aspect of the threat that

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Speaker 1: actually makes you most worried about it, and you can

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Speaker 1: control it. You can say, well, your boss may have

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Speaker 1: said something awful to you, but your body doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to react that way. So imagine you're floating in a bath,

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Speaker 1: the lake tubb or floating in space, and then picture

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Speaker 1: on an imaginary screen your boss on one side and

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Speaker 1: what you might say or do on the other in

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Speaker 1: the context of feeling physically more comfortable. So hypnosis is

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Speaker 1: a way of, in a very focused way, controlling mind

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Speaker 1: and body interactions in a way that helps you handle

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Speaker 1: them better.

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Speaker 2: And can you look us through, David, the neurobiology what's

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Speaker 2: happening to our brain in this period? Because I think again,

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Speaker 2: often people have looked at some of these modalities as

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Speaker 2: being wo wo or being slightly alternative, et cetera. But

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Speaker 2: what's actually happening from a neuroscience perspective.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I've lived with it for a long time

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Speaker 1: But we've spent a decade studying what's going on in

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Speaker 1: the brain using functional magnetic resonance imaging with people who

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Speaker 1: are high and low and hypnotizability in and out of

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Speaker 1: hypnotic states, and we find three things happen in the

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Speaker 1: brain when you go into hypnosis. The first is you

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Speaker 1: turn down activity in the anterior cingulate cortext that's part

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Speaker 1: of what we call the same alience network. It's a

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Speaker 1: pattern matching region of the brain that says there's something

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Speaker 1: different going on here. Maybe you better look out. So

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Speaker 1: you hear a loud noise and you think, is it

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Speaker 1: a threat? What is it? That's the salience network firing off,

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Speaker 1: saying there may be trouble here, you're better attend to it.

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Speaker 1: You turn down activity in that part of the brain.

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Speaker 1: The singulate cortex is like an inverted sea right in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the brain, and the front part of

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Speaker 1: it is the salience network. We found that the more

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Speaker 1: hypnotized people felt, the less activity there was in that

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Speaker 1: part of the brain, So you're turning off the home

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Speaker 1: alarm system and just letting yourself experience what you experience.

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Speaker 1: We find actually that the more hypnotizable people are the

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Speaker 1: more of an inhibitory neurotransmitter, gamma aminobuteric acid they have

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Speaker 1: in the anterior cingulate. So it's the drug that benzodiazepines,

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Speaker 1: anti anxiety drugs actually stimulate GABBA receptors, and so that's

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Speaker 1: how we can control ourselves. We can reduce anxiety, but

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Speaker 1: you don't need a drug to do it. You can

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Speaker 1: do it yourself. The second thing that happens is we

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Speaker 1: have more functional connectivity between the dorsalateral prefrontal cortex on

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Speaker 1: the left and a part of the rank called the insuli.

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Speaker 1: It's Latin for island, and it's a little island of

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Speaker 1: tissue in the middle of the front part of the

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Speaker 1: brain that is a mind body conduit. So when you're

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Speaker 1: when that connection is happening, you have more ability to

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Speaker 1: control what's happening in your body, to control heart rate

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Speaker 1: and blood pressure, your level of arousal, to control of

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Speaker 1: the functioning of the gastrointestinal system. We found that highly

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Speaker 1: hypnotizable people given a hypnotic construction to imagine imaginary meal

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Speaker 1: actually increase their gastric acid secretion by eighty nine percent.

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Speaker 1: We had one subject who was taking a gastronomictory of

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Speaker 1: the Bay Area, and after about a half an hour

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Speaker 1: of she said, let's stop. I'm full, you know, just

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Speaker 1: eating imaginary food. And when they do the opposite, when

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Speaker 1: they relax but think of anything butt food or drink,

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Speaker 1: we got a thirty nine percent decreasing gastric acid. So

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Speaker 1: the brain has an amazing ability to control what's going

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Speaker 1: on in the body. That's this prefrontal cortex to insul

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Speaker 1: a connection and also to be more aware of what's

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Speaker 1: going on in the body. We call that interroception, so

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Speaker 1: you enhance your regulation of the body and perception of it.

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Speaker 1: The third one, and I think this might be especial

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Speaker 1: interest to you, Jay, in view of your interest of

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Speaker 1: how we get trapped in notions of ourselves and try

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Speaker 1: to be something we're not and don't focus on the

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Speaker 1: fundamental things. You get inverse connectivity between the prefrontal cortex

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Speaker 1: and the posterior singular cortext that's a part of the

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Speaker 1: brain that we call the default mode network where you

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Speaker 1: contemplate who you are what you are instead of what

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Speaker 1: you're doing. When you're not working or doing anything, you're

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Speaker 1: just reflecting. And it's the part of the brain that

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Speaker 1: is the closest probably to what we call the superego

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Speaker 1: and analytic terms, where you're looking at yourself and saying,

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Speaker 1: who am I, who should I be? What do I

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Speaker 1: want to be? And so you're to the extent you're

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Speaker 1: engaged in the hypnotic task, you're suppressing activity there. And

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Speaker 1: that's the football coach dancing like a ballerina. You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't care. I'll just try it anyway and see

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Speaker 1: what it's like. Now, that's silly, but if you want

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Speaker 1: people to change, it's a great opportunity to say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, just try it. See what it feels like

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Speaker 1: to be different. Can you be in the same situation

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Speaker 1: and react to it differently, not struggle against it, not

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Speaker 1: fight it, see what you can learn from it. And

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Speaker 1: so that and that's a part of the brain where

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Speaker 1: activity is suppressed. In experienced meditators too. The mindfulness tends

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Speaker 1: to inhibit activity in this posterior singula default mode area,

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Speaker 1: or I call it the my fault mode network. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's when you're reflecting on what's wrong with you. And

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Speaker 1: so it's a part of the brain that is also

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Speaker 1: affected by psychedelic drugs that this sort of dissolution of

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Speaker 1: the self comes but through disorganization of activity in the

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Speaker 1: posterior singulate cortex. There's a new paper in Nature out

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Speaker 1: with some leading neuroscientists who took psychedelics and scanned their

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Speaker 1: brains eighteen times over a couple of weeks and found

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Speaker 1: disorganization in that region of the brain. So it's a

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Speaker 1: center for change because you can inhibit your usual views

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Speaker 1: of who you are, and that's something that hypnosis helps

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Speaker 1: you to do.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible to control others with hypnosis and hypnotherapy?

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Speaker 1: Well, jay I I would say yes and no. I

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Speaker 1: mean we're social creatures. We're susceptible of social influence. And

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Speaker 1: you know, if you pay any if you engage in

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Speaker 1: the painful act of paying any attention to recent American politics,

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Speaker 1: you'll see that people are influenced by all kinds of

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Speaker 1: things and believe all kinds of things that just flat

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Speaker 1: out aren't true. And it is the case that people

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Speaker 1: in hypnosis, since they're more focused, are more likely to

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Speaker 1: suspend their usual evaluation and judgment of things and see

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Speaker 1: what it would be like if this were true instead

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Speaker 1: of that. And there are people who have been and

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Speaker 1: can be influenced to some extent. But you know what,

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Speaker 1: people who are highly hypnotizable do that without ever having

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Speaker 1: been formally hypnotized. They'll tell you. I just you know,

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Speaker 1: the highly hypnotizable people tend to be very sensitive to

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Speaker 1: other people. They pick up their emotional cues very well,

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Speaker 1: and they respond often easily, putting somebody else's priorities above

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Speaker 1: their own. So does that mean you're more easily influenced. Perhaps,

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Speaker 1: But frankly, I think you're better protected if you understand

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Speaker 1: more about your tendency to do that, and you can

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Speaker 1: defend yourself more. So. Hypnosis is a way of being

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Speaker 1: influenced by other people but also being influenced by your

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Speaker 1: own desires and wishes. So I would say it's there,

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Speaker 1: take full advantage of it.

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Speaker 2: How does one know if they're hypnotizable? Because I believe

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Speaker 2: that most people would feel like, oh, I would never

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Speaker 2: work on me, and I don't think it would work

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Speaker 2: on me like they do with meditation as well. People

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Speaker 2: always think, oh, that won't work for me. My mind

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Speaker 2: is everywhere. How does someone know if they can be hypnotized? Well?

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Speaker 1: On the Reverie app, we have a six minute hypnotizability

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Speaker 1: test it's a standard test. I've used it with about

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Speaker 1: seven thousand patients and research subjects in my career. It

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Speaker 1: just it can be done very quickly. You give a

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Speaker 1: series of hypnotic instructions and see how the person can

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Speaker 1: respond to them. And if you'd like, Jay, I can

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Speaker 1: test your hypnotizability right now.

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Speaker 2: I think we should do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you are. I bet your listeners are placing bets

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Speaker 1: just admatizable.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: So get as comfortable as you can. Put one arm

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Speaker 1: on either side of the chair, and please look up

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Speaker 1: now to the top of your head, all the way up,

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Speaker 1: eye as you can, pass your eyebrows all the way up,

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Speaker 1: way way up. Good, And as you keep looking up,

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Speaker 1: slowly close your eyes. All right now, let your eyes relax,

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Speaker 1: but keep them closed. Take a deep breath in nice

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Speaker 1: slow exhale through your mouth. Let your eyes relax, but

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Speaker 1: keep them closed, and let your body float. Just imagine

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Speaker 1: you're floating somewhere safe and comfortable, like a bath, a lake,

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Speaker 1: a hot tub, floating in space. And while your body's floating,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you to take your right hand

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Speaker 1: and stroke the back of your left middle finger. So

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Speaker 1: let your right hand float over and stroke the back

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Speaker 1: of your left middle fing and stroke backward towards your wrist.

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Speaker 1: Now and up your forearm to your elbow. And as

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Speaker 1: you do that, you'll feel a sense of tingling and

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Speaker 1: numbness and lightness. And now put your right hand back

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Speaker 1: down and let your left hand float up in the

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Speaker 1: air like a balloon. Let it float up to a

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Speaker 1: comfortable upright position. You can leave it straight up in

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Speaker 1: the air as it is, or you can rest your

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Speaker 1: elbow on the arm of the chair. Whatever feels better

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Speaker 1: to you. And I'm going to give you this instruction.

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Speaker 1: Your hand will remain light and in this upright position

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Speaker 1: even after I give you the signal for your eyes

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Speaker 1: to open. Later, when I ask you to pull your

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Speaker 1: left hand back down to the arm of the chair

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Speaker 1: and then let go, your left hand will float right

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Speaker 1: back up to the upright position. You'll find something pleasant

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Speaker 1: and amusing about this sensation. After that, when I ask

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Speaker 1: you to touch your elbow, your usual sensation and control

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Speaker 1: will return. Each time you go into this state of concentration,

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Speaker 1: you'll find it easier and easier to do, and you

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Speaker 1: can use it to help you concentrate on what's important

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Speaker 1: to you. Right now, we'll come out of this state

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Speaker 1: of concentration together by counting backwards from three to one.

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Speaker 1: On three, you'll get ready. On two with your eye

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Speaker 1: that's closed, roll up your eyes and one let your

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Speaker 1: eyes open. Ready, three, two, one? Right now stand in

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Speaker 1: this position. Please and describe what physical sensations you're aware

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Speaker 1: of now in your left hand and arm. There's a

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Speaker 1: tingling in my fingers, tingling? Is it comfortable?

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Speaker 2: Comfortable?

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Speaker 1: Very comfortable. Does your left hand feel as if it's

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Speaker 1: not as much a part of your body as your

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Speaker 1: right hand? Agreed, it's lighter, it's lighter. Okay. Does that

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Speaker 1: surprise you at all?

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to perceive the sensation.

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Speaker 1: The sense it, Yeah, to be aware of it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting for sure. It's curious. Okay. Now please take

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Speaker 1: your right hand, pull your left hand back down to

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Speaker 1: the arm of the chair, and then let go. Now,

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Speaker 1: your left hand just popped up. Can you describe what

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Speaker 1: that felt like?

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Speaker 2: It felt like a pull, almost like that I that

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Speaker 2: I had to lift it up, That you had to

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Speaker 2: lift it up. Yeah, that it felt like I should

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Speaker 2: It felt right to do it.

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Speaker 1: It felt right good? Yeah? Is that surprising to you

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Speaker 1: that is very.

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Speaker 2: Surprising to me.

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Speaker 1: All right, I can feel it. It was a physical sensationhip,

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Speaker 1: it was physical.

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Speaker 2: It was physical. It wasn't mental, because I know you'd

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Speaker 2: said that in the instructions, and I could hear that,

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Speaker 2: I could feel it in my brain, so I guess

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Speaker 2: there's something better. But it felt physically.

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Speaker 1: It felt like it felt like a force, a physical force.

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Speaker 1: By way of comparison, please raise your right hand, put

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Speaker 1: that one down. Any difference in sensation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no feeling of there being any other this

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Speaker 2: and my left hand almost feels like there's puppet strings attached,

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Speaker 2: puppet strings, whereas here I don't feel they're They're like,

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Speaker 2: I feel like I can do what I want with this,

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Speaker 2: whereas this hand feels very like.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm here to tell you folks, there are no puppets.

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Speaker 2: But in that in that sensation of the idea that

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Speaker 2: in the sense I don't know how to describe that,

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Speaker 2: it's this hand feels fully under my control, whereas this

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Speaker 2: hand feels like there's a sense of I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: I want to nail the expression. It's this hand I

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Speaker 2: can do whatever I want with it right now. Is

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Speaker 2: this hand feels like that's where it's meant to be.

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Speaker 1: That's where it's meant to be, so you clearly have

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Speaker 1: more control over your right right all right, now, please

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Speaker 1: take your right hand, touch your left elbow, and then

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Speaker 1: let go.

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Speaker 2: Let go like this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now I see that your left hand went back down.

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Speaker 1: Can you describe what that feels like?

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Speaker 2: There's still a sensation in my forearm that makes me

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Speaker 2: want to lift it slightly for some comfort. But when

390
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Speaker 2: I put it down fully, it's slowly getting more acclimatized

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Speaker 2: to matching with the right but it's not there yet.

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Speaker 1: There yet, Okay, some sensation there, so it feels the

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Speaker 1: sensation is different, but the control is now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could like still want to lift it a

395
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Speaker 2: little bit. There's still that feeling of wanting to lift it.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, touch your left elbow again with your

397
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Speaker 1: right hand open now, shake both hands and tell me

398
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Speaker 1: when the control becomes the same. Slowly getting there, getting there? Okay.

399
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Speaker 1: Did I do or say anything that would indicate there'd

400
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Speaker 1: be a change in sensation or control in your left

401
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Speaker 1: hand and arm?

402
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so.

403
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Speaker 1: Did I say anything to you about your elbow or

404
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 1: touching your elbow?

405
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Speaker 2: I believe.

406
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Speaker 1: So, yes, yeah, do you remember what I said?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You said when I would touch my elbow that

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Speaker 2: would return back.

409
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Speaker 1: You didn't, and you did touch your elbow. Okay. Did

410
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Speaker 1: you have a sense of floating lightness or buoyancy in

411
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Speaker 1: your left hand and arm during Did you have that

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Speaker 1: sense in any other part of your body? I don't

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Speaker 1: think in chest. Okay, so your score is seven out

414
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Speaker 1: of ten. You're quite hymnatizable, which is shocking to me.

415
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Speaker 2: It is really, I just I just never thought I

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Speaker 2: had this really strange thing happened that when you were talking.

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Speaker 2: And I know we haven't even got into it yet,

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Speaker 2: but when you asked me to roll my head, I

419
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Speaker 2: think I find myself often to be non hypnotiza were

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Speaker 2: just because I don't know. I guess I've never opened

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Speaker 2: myself up to it. But I felt this when you

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Speaker 2: were kind of about to calt me down. I felt

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Speaker 2: like my head is getting heavier and lowering, and I

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Speaker 2: felt like I was like I could. I was aware

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Speaker 2: that I was sinking, but I was like, why am

426
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Speaker 2: I sinking? Like what's going on? And so it's always

427
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Speaker 2: like my head was straight back because you asked me

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Speaker 2: to be comfortable as if I was floating. So when

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Speaker 2: you said that, I kind of leaned back and I

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Speaker 2: felt like I was floating in a lake, as you said.

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Speaker 2: But then when you said, like, we're going to bring

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Speaker 2: back ourselves conscious and my head started to do this

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Speaker 2: and it was such a natural heaviness that brought my

434
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 2: head down. But there was a part of me that

435
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 2: was going, why are we doing this right now? Why

436
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: am I dropping my head? But I am dropping my head.

437
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: So your head was drooping forward, it was leaning was.

438
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 2: Leaning forward, but you didn't ask me to do that,

439
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: and I didn't know why I was doing it, but

440
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 2: it felt natural to kind of feel like I was

441
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: sinking in.

442
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: Yes, sinking into it. So you were elaborating upon the

443
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: image that you were feeling, and that's you know, hypnosis

444
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: is about very rapidly doing things, changing the way your

445
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: body feels. You have with all of your experience in mindfulness.

446
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: This is something different for you. How would you say

447
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: it's different from where the state to get into mindfulness?

448
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I would say that the state

449
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: of sinking and being in that state of awake and

450
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: alert but also resting is something I feel certain mindfulness

451
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: practices can allow us to create that STUF eight. I've

452
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 2: never created it through physical movement. It's always created through

453
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 2: being present or still or bringing my awareness to a

454
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: particular object or my breath or whatever it may be.

455
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 2: But I've never really felt it physically. It's probably the

456
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 2: best way I could define the difference. I felt like

457
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: I'm floating while meditating, or I felt a lightness in

458
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: my entire body, but not in a specific hand or

459
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: a specific part of my body I see.

460
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: So it's more slipping into the state but not using

461
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: it right away to see if you can produce a

462
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: change correct and frankly, when I use hypnosis with subjects,

463
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: and I use this test with every person I use

464
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: hypnosis with because it's a way for them to discover

465
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: what the experience is like and how they feel it

466
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: and to observe it, know, to see, don't take my

467
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: word for it, try it out and see what it

468
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: feels like, and for me to be able to evaluate

469
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: in what way to work with them. Because some people

470
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: can do something like what you did, some less not

471
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 1: at all, not that many, but some people not at all.

472
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,719
Speaker 1: But it becomes a kind of immediate object lesson and

473
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: how much more control we have over our body and

474
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: how we react to that than we usually give ourselves

475
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: credit for.

476
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 2: What about the cynical mind that says, And that's what

477
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 2: I'm so glad I'm talking to you about this, because

478
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: you know years of research Stanford Medicine. It's the cynical

479
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: mind that I avoided having in this experience, because I

480
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 2: generally consider myself someone who wants to be open to

481
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: experience and curious and open to letting things in to

482
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: figure it out and see how useful it may be.

483
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: But the cynical mind that says, well, of course Jay

484
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: lifted his hand because David had said that he would

485
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: lift his hand when he put it back down. But

486
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: to me, I can genuinely say that, yes, there was

487
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 2: an instruction in the brain, but there was also a

488
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: feeling that was there. And so both those things and

489
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: my cynical self. If I was trying to be annoying,

490
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 2: which I would never want to in a you know,

491
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 2: I've invited you to be my guest to my show,

492
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 2: but the cynical, skeptical part of me would be like, oh,

493
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: I'm just going to hold my hand down just to

494
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: make a point. But I wanted to go with how

495
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: I was actually feeling and intuitively feeling. So the cynical

496
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: person that says, well, it's a placebo effect or it's

497
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: something that David told you to do and that's why

498
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: you did it. How do you process that kind of

499
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: response or reaction that often I imagine arises.

500
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I frankly think the best answer is

501
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: you are highly experienced in mindfulness, in trying out different

502
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: ways of being. And yet for you, and you're telling

503
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: and look, I'm a guest on your show, this is

504
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: your show. It would be fine for you to just say,

505
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: you know, sorry, doc nice try I don't feel it,

506
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: and I think you would be honest with your audience

507
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: in doing that. I would, yes, But you had the experience.

508
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 1: You know, years ago. I don't know if you remember this,

509
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: but there was a guy named Phil Donahue who had

510
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: a very popular daytime show and he invited me as

511
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: a guest. Was at a time when it was thought

512
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: to be dangerous to hypnotize someone in public. You wouldn't

513
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: do that, other people might get hypnotized. So this woman

514
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: I had hypnotized before the show began, and I had

515
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: her arm up in the air like this. The show

516
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: opens and I pull the hand down and it pops

517
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: back up the way yours did. And the camera comes

518
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: in closer, and Donna Hue says, look, this is just

519
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,479
Speaker 1: some doctor. I'm Phil Donahue. Keep your hand down, and

520
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: he pulls her hand down and it pops right back

521
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: up in the air, and she says, I'm starting to

522
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: feel like a slot machine, you know. So the fun

523
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: thing about it is is that if it's the real deal,

524
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: it wasn't like you were saying, oh, I'll just keep

525
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: my hand down. Your hand wanted to go up right.

526
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: And that ability to quickly rearrange your mind body relationship

527
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: is part of what's so interesting about hypnosis. And you

528
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: experienced it, so you know. People can fight it if

529
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: they want, or they can misrepresent what their experience is,

530
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: but you didn't. You had the experience and that element

531
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: of surprise that where people can see, damn, I look

532
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: look what's happening in my body. Look what I can

533
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: do this quickly? That's our world. I'm already starting therapy there,

534
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: you know, because I'm showing people that they have more

535
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: of an ability to control their body than they like

536
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: to think, or than they usually think, and that's a

537
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: tremendous opportunity.

538
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: Right, even though you're the one giving the instruction, you

539
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: feel that that's showing that I have the power to

540
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: control my body.

541
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: That's a very important point, chat because it's I'm not

542
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: taking control. And you may have did you feel like

543
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: I was taking No? No, no, I thought. I'm a teacher.

544
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: You know, I'm teaching you how to identify and utilize

545
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: the abilities you have the way you do when you

546
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: teach people how to use mindfulness, you know, you're not

547
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: implanting mindfulness in them, You're showing them. Look, you know

548
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: you're you've narrowed your view of who you are and

549
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: what you are, and I'm going to help you expand it.

550
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: And I'm going to show you the beauty and everyday

551
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: experience and how you can reassess what's important to you

552
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: in life. And people can be open to that and

553
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: learned from it or not. But you're teaching them how

554
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: to explore capacities they have that they may not have

555
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: known about. And that's what I'm doing with hypnosis. I'm

556
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: teaching them how to utilize their own ability. You know,

557
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: our major evolutionary advantage as humans is our brain. This

558
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: three pound object on the top of our shoulders. It

559
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: doesn't come with a user's manual. You know, there are

560
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: a lot of things our brains can do, and that's

561
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: what you do teaching people mindfulness that you can use

562
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: your brain in ways you hadn't thought of, and if

563
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: they didn't have the basic ability to do it, it wouldn't work.

564
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: And the same is true. That's what I'm doing with hypnosis.

565
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: I'm not projecting anything onto someone. I'm teaching them how

566
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: to use what they already know. When automobiles were invented

567
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: some hundred and some years ago, there were a bunch

568
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: of state laws against windshield wipers. Why because remember the

569
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: oldest image of somebody inducing hypnosis was the dangling watch,

570
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 1: you know, and it doesn't work very well with electronic

571
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: watches now, But they thought people would be waving their

572
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: eyes back and forth with the windshield wipers and going

573
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: into hypnotic states when they were driving. It doesn't happen.

574
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: But so it's an ability that people have and we

575
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: just teach them how to use it.

576
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's brilliant. Hey, I'm Jay Shatty and I wanted

577
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: to invite you to a brand new interactive no charge

578
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 2: workshop renew you that I'm eager to share with you.

579
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: Over the years, I've worked with thousands of people across

580
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: the globe, and I've noticed a common theme. Many of

581
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: us are feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or disconnected. We're going through

582
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: the motions of life, but not really living. Does that

583
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: sound familiar. You're feeling burnt out, uninspired, or like life

584
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: is just passing by without meaning. Maybe you're struggling to

585
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: make the impact you know you capable of, or perhaps

586
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: you're craving deeper connections with others. If any of this

587
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: resonates that, I want you to know that change is possible,

588
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: and it starts with the choices you make today. In

589
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: this workshop, I'm going to share five simple, yet powerful

590
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: steps that can help you reignite your passion, purpose, and joy.

591
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: These are the same principles that have helped me and

592
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: countless others reshape our lives from the inside out, and

593
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: I know they can do the same for you. You'll

594
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: walk away with actionable strategies to revamp your daily routine,

595
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: find your true purpose, and create meaningful connections. And the

596
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: best part, this workshop is completely free. These changes don't

597
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: require massive overhauls. It's about making small, intentional shifts that

598
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Speaker 2: can lead to big results. This workshop is more than

599
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: just learning, it's about doing. I'll be guiding you through

600
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: reflections and exercises that will help you start creating the

601
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: life you've always dreamed of. Right here, right now. Go

602
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: to www dot renew youu workshop dot com to access

603
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: this at no charge and start building a life that's

604
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: not just lived, but truly loved. See you there. How

605
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: can hypnotherapy affect our memory? How does it work with memory?

606
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: Well, there's a that's a fairly controversial area, hypnosis. It

607
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: can be a powerful thing. It can help people relive

608
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: events and with not just remember, but relive them with

609
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: the same kind of emotion, sort of like a flashback

610
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: in PTSD, but under control, and then help people come

611
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: to a new understanding of what happened. Now, does it

612
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: mean that the hypnotic what we call age aggression, is

613
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: an absolute, totally accurate recollection of what happened? Though? But

614
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: then none of our recollections are, you know, they're a

615
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: combination of what we experienced and put down in memory stores,

616
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: and what we interpret and what we've learned later. But

617
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: it can help people in a controlled way to get

618
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: back to relive and remember things that they previously might

619
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: not have been able to remember, in part because the

620
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: emotions are so painful and difficult that one way to

621
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: protect yourself is to just keep it dissociated, just put

622
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: it away somewhere and not think about it. And hypnosis

623
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: can be a way of cutting through that and helping

624
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: people come to terms with situations that they previously hadn't

625
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: thought about or didn't want to think about. So what

626
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: I tell my patients and what is the case, is

627
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: that hypnosis is no true serum. It's not like your

628
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: memory is a tape recorder and you just rewind the

629
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: tape and look at it. But it can be a

630
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: way of dealing with the emotional implications of things you're

631
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: remembering and get a better look at what happened. And

632
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: one example, I don't know if you remember this, but

633
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: not far from here, there's a town called chow Chilla

634
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: where a school bus full of children was hijacked by

635
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: two idiots who literally buried the bus underground in some

636
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: an old mining pit, And they finally found the bus

637
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: and really freed the kids, and the bus driver couldn't

638
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: remember much about the guys who overtook the bus. So

639
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 1: he was hypnotized, and he of course was traumatized too,

640
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: and he had to help keep these kids alive in

641
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: a terrible circumstance. And he recalled seeing this car overtaking

642
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: the bus, and he remembered in hypnosis all of the

643
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: numbers and letters of the license plate correctly. He got

644
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 1: the order wrong, but he remembered it all, and that

645
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: led to the arresting conviction of the two guys who

646
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: did it. There are times when, yes, you can add

647
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: new information that is accurate. It doesn't mean it's always accurate,

648
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: but it's additional and often useful information.

649
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 2: I mean, that's so fascinating that sometimes our conscious memory

650
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: doesn't hold onto these I expect with the subconscious calm

651
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 2: And so is it that you're able to also relieve

652
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: past stress and anxiety and to overwhelm Is it by

653
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 2: reframing the narrative in hypnosis or hypnotherapy that would do?

654
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: Is that the work that's doing? Could you give some examples? Y, Yes.

655
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: That's very important. So there's a woman I saw who

656
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: suffered an attempted rape as she was coming home just

657
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: at dusk with her arms full of groceries, and this

658
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: guy jumped her and she starts fighting with him. Eventually

659
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: she fought him off. Actually he was trying to get

660
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: her upstairs into her apartment, and the police came. She

661
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: hadn't actually been raped. They thought, no big deal. She

662
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: then had a full out seizure. She's had a basel

663
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: or skull fracture from the fighting with this guy. So

664
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: it was a terrifying, horrible thing. And she wanted initially

665
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: to just remember more about what the guy looked like,

666
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: and she couldn't remember much. It was getting dark, so

667
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: I said, all right, here's how we're going to do this.

668
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: We're going to take you back to this time. But

669
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: your body is floating in a bath. You're safe and comfortable,

670
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: and whatever you see or remember, nothing has happened to

671
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 1: your body is now safe and comfortable. So I was

672
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: reassuring her. And very often, when understandably, when people remember

673
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: an event like that, they start reacting physically as though

674
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: what were happening, And that's that feedback cycle of physical

675
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: and mental hyper arousal that is very uncomfortable. So remind

676
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: yourself at all times you're safe and comfortable. But I

677
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: want you to picture him and she said, you know,

678
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: I really it was getting dark. I really can't see

679
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 1: much more about his face than I recall, she said,

680
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: but I see something else. If he gets me upstairs,

681
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: he's not just going to rate me. He's going to

682
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: kill me. And so you might say, well, thank you,

683
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: doctor Spiegel. You've now made her feel even worse than

684
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: she did before. It was a more horrible experience than

685
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: even she had imagined. And I said, well, you're looking

686
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: at this on a split screen. Picture him on one

687
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 1: side and what you see about him on the other side.

688
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: I want you to picture something else. What did you

689
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 1: do to protect yourself? And I have yet to meet

690
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: a trauma victim that doesn't engage in some creative strategy

691
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: to protect themselves. And she said, you know, he's surprised

692
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: that I'm fighting that hard. He didn't think I would.

693
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: And she'd been feeling very guilty that she got herself

694
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: as badly injured as she was, And I said, you know,

695
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: you saved your life. You know, think about what you did.

696
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: You know, you just jumped and you defended yourself, and

697
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: you saved your life. So she came away from that,

698
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: on the one hand, seeing things that you might say,

699
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: are even more upsetting than what she was already living with.

700
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: But recognizing that she had done something to save her

701
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: life and that changed her reaction to the whole event.

702
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: You know, she saw it as something that was an

703
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: attribute and aspect of herself that she hadn't recognized. And

704
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: there's I don't remember the name, but there's a Japanese

705
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: custom that when some very beautiful precious vase breaks when

706
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: somebody drops it or something, when they glue it back together,

707
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: they don't use glue, they use gold and they're there

708
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,959
Speaker 1: is what they're saying is it will now be even

709
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: more beautiful than it was. And in a sense, she

710
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: it was a terrible thing, but it was also she

711
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: learned something wonderful about herself. And that's so you can

712
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: help people relive an event in a very controlled way

713
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: and at the same time learn something that helps you

714
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: cope with it a lot better.

715
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe it's known as kintsugi.

716
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, that's right.

717
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 2: Yes, they use that gold powder and things like that,

718
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: and that you get these gold veins, yes, in the vases.

719
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: That is so beautiful. And thank you for showing that

720
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: extreme example, because I think it's It's so interesting because

721
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: you could do that as a theoretical activity, but it

722
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 2: doesn't it doesn't work like that. You know, you could

723
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 2: say like what did you learn from this? Or how

724
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 2: did you react? And sometimes it can be so painful

725
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 2: to reflect on it in such a technical theoretical way.

726
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: That's right, and being able to see yourself fighting and

727
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,919
Speaker 2: being brave and being courageous and how it affects. How

728
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: does then that work with self hypnotherapy, like when you

729
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: talk about your app revery, how does that work? Because

730
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: you're not physically there to guide people? How do them

731
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 2: people allow themselves to practice it on their own in

732
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: a safe way, in a safe environment, in a way

733
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: that it can.

734
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: Help well in many circumstances. Jay, it's you know, it's

735
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 1: pretty easy, that is. You know, there was a reporter

736
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: for the Times of London who started using Reverie. She

737
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: had metastatic breast cancer and she was dealing with that

738
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: very openly with her readers and talking about that, and

739
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: she tried wherever she was having trouble sleeping, you know,

740
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 1: she just couldn't stay asleep and would wake up anxious

741
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: and with some discomfort. She said about after about five

742
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: days she would just listen to my malifluous voice every night.

743
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I used to worry that the app

744
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't be nearly as good as being in the office

745
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: with me, But then I thought, you know, if you

746
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: wake up at three in the morning, you probably don't

747
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: want me in your bedroom teaching how to go back

748
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: to sleep. But you've got me there on the app,

749
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: and it's interactive. So I asked, how are you responding?

750
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: And depending on what you tell the app, you get

751
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: a different instruction, so it is as much like being

752
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: with me as possible. And she said, I woke up

753
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: one morning after about five days of this. Rosamond Dean

754
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: is her name. She's a lovely person and grave reporter,

755
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: and she said, I looked at the clock sort of

756
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: out of the corner of my eye, and I thought,

757
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's seven or nine am. It's the

758
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: first time I've slept through the night in a year.

759
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: And so people can learn to incorporate it into their

760
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: own practices. Now, I would say that people dealing with

761
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress disorder and these severe things probably would

762
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: benefit more from having a trained therapist helping them to

763
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: do it. But once you sort of set them on

764
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: that path, they can revisit it having learned what the

765
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: experience is like, and they can help them. But more

766
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: commonly we use it for more common problems for distress, insomnia, pain, focus,

767
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: things that are widely disseminated, mental problems that we don't

768
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: have nearly enough resources to help people with. So Reverie

769
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: is a great way to say, try it for yourself

770
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: and see what it feels like. And if you need

771
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: the help of a professional along with it, by all means.

772
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 2: When you're working directly with the professional, how long have

773
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: you seen it take for results to start forming? In reality?

774
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: So if someone struggling with sleep and insomnia, how long

775
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 2: does it take the average person to get back to

776
00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: a sense of well?

777
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: I can tell you I have the most data jay

778
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: from Reverie. We have people rate their level of stress

779
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: or their level of pain pre to post within ten

780
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: minutes the beginning of the interactive session to the end,

781
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: and we find that four out of five of them

782
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: report improvement of about one and a half to two

783
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: points on a ten point scale within ten minutes and

784
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 1: reductions in pain, stress management, improving focus is so eighty

785
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: or ninety percent report improvement and so the great thing

786
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: about this is you know right away whether you're going

787
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: to feel better. I had one woman who was pregnant

788
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: and had terrible lower back disease, and they couldn't give

789
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: her opioids, thank god, because she was pregnant, and they

790
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: implanted a nerve stimulator didn't work, and her pain was

791
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: seven out of ten and the bigger the baby got.

792
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: Of course, the worst the pain was because it was

793
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: pulling more on her spine. And so I had her

794
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: imagine she was doing something that gives her relief, which

795
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: is taking a nice warm bath. And if you think

796
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: about it, so she has the opportunity to put her

797
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: brain into the state it is in when she's got

798
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: the pain, but she's an a warm bath, and our

799
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: brain can recall that and see, well, okay, the pain

800
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: signals are still there, but I can also imagine them

801
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: being interfered with by this comfort that comes with a warmth.

802
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: So she did, and she said the pain was down

803
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 1: from seven out of ten to three. But she looked angry,

804
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: and I said, what are you angry about? She said,

805
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: why in the hell are you the last doctor I

806
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 1: got sent to instead of the first. It doesn't seem real.

807
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: If there is an incision, ingestion, or injection, you're not

808
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: doing anything real. I'm a doctor, I use medications, I

809
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: do a lot of other treatment techniques. But our brains

810
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: are powerful things, and if we learn to use the better,

811
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: we can be a lot more comfortable and unlike opioids,

812
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: which killed eighty eight thousand Americans last year alone, the

813
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: worst thing it happens with hypnosis is it doesn't work.

814
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: So we're finding from people using Reverie, and this is

815
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: thousands of people. We have one study with stress reduction,

816
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: thirty three thousand people get an average reduction of one

817
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: and a half points in ten minutes just using the app.

818
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 1: So it's worth to try.

819
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: What's the most extreme case or unique case where you've

820
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 2: used typnotherapy that you remember that you think would be

821
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: really powerful for the audience.

822
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: To hear about. I worked with a Vietnam veteran who

823
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: had been He had just kind of gone berserk in Vietnam,

824
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: and nobody knew quite knew why. But he hijacked an

825
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: ambulance and went out into the jungle and started shooting

826
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 1: at people he thought were Viatkan and he wound up

827
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: being hospitalized in a statemental hospital for a year because

828
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: he was picked up in a drug bust. He was

829
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: using taking psychedelics and a social worker interviewed him and said,

830
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: he doesn't look like our typical chronic patient in a

831
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: statemental hospital. And so I got to see him, and

832
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: he was very hypnotizable, and I said, I'd like to

833
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: relive with you what happened before this event. So we

834
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: went back and he was extremely hypnotizable. He was even

835
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: higher score than you, Jay, and he relived the Tet

836
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: offensive in Vietnam. And he comes back to the hospital

837
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: we worked. He was a cook in the army. He was,

838
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, long standing, highly regarded cook in the army.

839
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: And he comes upon the body of a little boy.

840
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: He called him Shytown because he gave him Chicago, who

841
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: he had informally adopted. The boy was an orphan. He

842
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: was badly wounded in a bombing and had burns and

843
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: walked with a crutch, and he just became his dad.

844
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: And they hung out together and slept together, and he

845
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,439
Speaker 1: started crying. He's looking at the boy's body there. He's saying,

846
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: they ain't got to kill kids. You know, we got

847
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: the Geneva Convention they can't do this. They can't bomb hospitals,

848
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: they can't kill kids. And he just takes off Commandeers's

849
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: ambulance and starts yelling at vietname. He's hyri Ta truck.

850
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: You know, he's angry at these people and shooting at them.

851
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: And I said, all right, I want to remember now

852
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: one happier time you had with Shytown and instantly, and see,

853
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: the nice thing about hypnosis is the control you have

854
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: that he's one minute grieving and angry at himself for

855
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: not having somehow known he could, you know, thinking he

856
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:56,399
Speaker 1: could have saved the boy. And I said, picture one

857
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: time you were happy with him, And a smile comes

858
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: on his face and he says, you remember your birthday party.

859
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: You know, the doughnut Dollies gave us some food for

860
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: this party. And my sister Josie sent an electric train

861
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: set from Chicago. The joke was it was from the

862
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: Spiegel Brothers company either, you know, what are the odds?

863
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: And he said, you ain't never seen an electric train before,

864
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 1: and they were, you know, just he was suddenly happy.

865
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 1: And I said, all right, I want you to remember

866
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,479
Speaker 1: two things. On one side of the screen. I want

867
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: you to picture shy Town's grave, and he as he

868
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 1: looked at it, he held out his hand and said, ashes

869
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: to ashes, dust to dust, I guess and I said,

870
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: on the other side, I want you to picture that

871
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: time when you were really happy with him. And I

872
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,959
Speaker 1: do this in helping people grief using hypnosis, I said,

873
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: because you're facing and dealing with the grief and the loss,

874
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: but you're also remembering something different about it. That the

875
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 1: reason it's so painful is how much joy you had together.

876
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: So I want you to remember both the loss and

877
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: you're having to bury shy Town. And at the same time,

878
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: I want you to picture those times you were happy

879
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 1: with him, because that's still true, you still have the

880
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 1: joy that you shared together. He then I said, all right,

881
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 1: so let's come out of the hypnosis now, and he,

882
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: you know, he had tears down his cheeks. He was

883
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: really upset, and I said, what do you remember? And

884
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: he looked a little puzzled and dazed, and he said,

885
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 1: I remember a grave and a cake. Wow, that was it.

886
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: That was all he remembered. And he practiced this exercise.

887
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: He was in the ward of the hospital doing the

888
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: self hypnosis. After that, grieving the boy you know, he

889
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: told me later, he said he knew he was going

890
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: to die. He was crippled the at arthritis. He didn't

891
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: think he was going to survive the war. And I said,

892
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 1: and you gave he did die, but you gave him

893
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: a period of happiness and feeling loved before he died,

894
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: and that's not going to go away. And he had

895
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: one going to rehospitalization when one of his brothers, who

896
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: was a Chicago police officer, was killed in a line

897
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: of duty, and we had to kind of piece him

898
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: back together and help him grieve that loss. But he

899
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: went on to teach adolescent boys how to do long

900
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: distance cycling and he was, you know, he was out

901
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 1: of the hospital, nomads and he was he was doing fine.

902
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: So you know, that's an experience I will I will

903
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 1: not forget. And it shows you how the interesting thing

904
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: about hypnosis is how much you know, people think you're

905
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: losing control. You watch this guy doing this, and I was,

906
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: I was reassuring myself. I was holding onto his arm

907
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: while I was doing this. But I was struck by

908
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 1: how much control we both had over the mental these

909
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,399
Speaker 1: extreme emotional states he was in and shifting from one

910
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 1: to another, despite how intense they were. And that's one

911
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: of the really cool things about hypnosis is that you

912
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: can be very intense with intense emotions but help people

913
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: feel themselves as different people. So he was dissociated in

914
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: the sense that he was two different guys. He was,

915
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 1: on the one hand, terribly upset and angry about the loss,

916
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: and angry at himself for somehow not having been able

917
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: to prevent this in the middle of a war. But

918
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: at the same time he could be the loving guy

919
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,399
Speaker 1: who grieved this boy and who recognized the gift they

920
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: had given to one another in forming the relationship that

921
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: they formed. So the capacity to focus intently to control

922
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 1: what's going on in mind and body, but also to

923
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: be comfortable with the idea that you can be two

924
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: different people in the sense that you can be this

925
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: horribly angry, furious guy at himself and everyone else about

926
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: what happened, and at the same time this warm, loving

927
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: parent to this poor little kid is something that is

928
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,240
Speaker 1: a real strength of hypnosis.

929
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: What I mean, thank you for sharing that story is

930
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 2: super fascinating. I hope there's some way we can read

931
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 2: and learn about all of these Yes, please let us

932
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 2: know where, well where the audience can go to learn more.

933
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 2: But what makes someone unhypnotizable? And when someone isn't open

934
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 2: to it and it doesn't work on them, what do

935
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 2: they do about it? Can they develop the ability to

936
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 2: become more hypnotizable? What can they do to open themselves

937
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: up to if they feel it's a modality that could

938
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: help them.

939
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: Well, Jay, there's good news and bed news about this.

940
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: The good news is that most children are in trans

941
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: states most of the time. You know, all eight year olds,

942
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: you know they're out playing, You call them at for dinner,

943
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: they don't hear you. They're doing anything. Work and play

944
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: is all the same thing for kids. They live in

945
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: their imagination, so they live hypnotic like experiences all the time,

946
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: and they can change all the time and be different

947
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: and play it being different. And so it's one of

948
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:00,879
Speaker 1: the wonderful things about you to it is that you're

949
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: in a more of a hypnotic consciousness state more of

950
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: the time. But as we go through adolescence, we go

951
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: through what the famous psychologists PHA called formal consciousness, in

952
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: which you evaluate more and experiencing is less a part

953
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: of that. So you learn to try to be more

954
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: logical and analyze more and just let yourself feel things less.

955
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:33,919
Speaker 1: So some people lose some of that hypnotic ability when

956
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: they acquire these formal operations, and they are about twenty

957
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: percent of the population who by the time they're twenty one,

958
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: just are not very hypnotizable. They're very logical. In Reverie,

959
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: where we have the hypnotizability test, we call them the researchers.

960
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: They want to examine and evaluate everything. At the other extreme,

961
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:58,439
Speaker 1: some people retain extremely high hypnotizability, and we call them

962
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 1: the poets. They just get to it. They just absorb

963
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: themselves in anything. I had one guy recently who gets

964
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: he loved getting lost in movies. You know, he just

965
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: enters another world. He becomes an actor in the movie

966
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: and part of it. And he decided he loved it

967
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,839
Speaker 1: so much that he went to film school to learn

968
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: how to make movies. And he said, you know what,

969
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: it was spoiling my experience of movies because I started thinking, well,

970
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 1: why did they put the camera over here and the

971
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: lightings and right in all this? And he said, so

972
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 1: I quit film school, Chris, I was losing that ability.

973
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: About sixty percent of the adult population are they're moderately hypnotizable.

974
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: They haven't experienced, then they step back and reflect on it,

975
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: and then they try it again. Most of them can

976
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: benefit to some extent from Reverie from other hypnotic techniques,

977
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 1: because even if you're not in it all the time,

978
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: if you can dip into it and have the experience,

979
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: you can change. And part of what we offer with

980
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: Reverie is not just hypnosis, but the way we use hypnosis.

981
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: And I think there's some of this and you know,

982
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: thinking like a monk where you talk about you know

983
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 1: the value of positivity, of having a finding a positive

984
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: aspect of even the most menial things that you have

985
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: to do. And with hypnosis, we try to use it

986
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 1: in a way that you focus on what you're for.

987
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,399
Speaker 1: So when people want to stop smoking, I don't say, oh,

988
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: cigarettes smell terrible. You know, they're awful things to do.

989
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 1: Look at what you're doing to your buddy. I say,

990
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 1: have them recite this to yourself. For my body, smoking's

991
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 1: a poison. I need my body to live. I owe

992
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 1: my body respect and protection. So you're being a better

993
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: parent to your own body. You'd never put, you know,

994
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 1: tar and nicotine laden smoke into your baby's lungs or

995
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: your pets lungs. Why would you do it to your

996
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: own body? It depends on you. So you people can

997
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: get with that approach to the problem, even if they're

998
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: not that hypnotizable, focusing on what you're for, So can

999
00:55:54,800 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 1: you change it? It's remarkably stable trait. Jay I didn't,

1000
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 1: but colleagues of mine at Stanford did a twenty five

1001
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: year follow up on former students who in psych one

1002
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: had had their hypntizability measured, and they blindly retested them

1003
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: twenty five years later. The test retest reliability zero point seven.

1004
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: Now that's as reliable as IQ it was over that interval,

1005
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 1: and so it's an extremely stable trait there are We

1006
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: just published a paper recently in which we used a

1007
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: technique called transcranial magnetic stimulation, in which you apply magnetic

1008
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: activity to the surface of the skull and if you

1009
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: line it up in the right place, you can connect

1010
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: between the prefrontal cortext to deeper components of the brain

1011
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 1: like the dorsal anterior cingulate, And we found that we

1012
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: could transiently increase hypnatizability a bit, and we're hoping that

1013
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 1: we can expand upon that and maybe find ways to

1014
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 1: increase hypnotizability, But I'd say for most people, just make

1015
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 1: good use of what you've got. The odds are that

1016
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: you will be able to benefit. And we're struck by

1017
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 1: the fact that at least four out of five people

1018
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 1: who use Reverie feel immediate improvement. And that's a whole

1019
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: It is correlated with their hypnotizability. We looked at that

1020
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: the more hypnotizable ones were more likely to respond, but

1021
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 1: most people responded to some extent anyway.

1022
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 2: David, is anything I didn't ask you that you really

1023
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 2: feel is on your heart in mind that you want

1024
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: to show and that's intuitively something you'd like to show.

1025
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, I certainly, you know. I want to

1026
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: kind of banish the fear that people have about hypnosis

1027
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: and the misunderstanding. You know, we're sort of remember Rodney Dangerfield.

1028
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:47,919
Speaker 1: You know, he was the comedian who said I don't

1029
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: get no respect, and he said they asked me to

1030
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: leave a bar so they could start happy hour. You know,

1031
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: it's people don't see hypnosis as the tool that it is,

1032
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: and they see it as some weird thing that you know,

1033
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: people do on stage or something. It's an aspect of

1034
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: our brains that allows us to take control of things.

1035
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: It's not losing control, it's gaining control that you can

1036
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: modulate pain, you can control your sense of relaxation so

1037
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: you can get to sleep or get back to sleep.

1038
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 1: You can focus intently on your work. There are athletes

1039
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: who use it, you know. Tiger Woods is one well

1040
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 1: known example of an athlete who Adele the singer, uses

1041
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: it to sing. It can really help people focus their

1042
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: attention and get in a better relationship with their own bodies,

1043
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 1: control what's going on in their bodies, and react better

1044
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: to their bodies. There's so much possibility that people can

1045
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: have from learning to identify it and use it. That

1046
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 1: That's why I build Reverie is a kind of legacy project.

1047
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to do this forever.

1048
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: I love helping the people I have helped and still help,

1049
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to be out there and available

1050
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: for people to use it for themselves and just explore it.

1051
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: It's an opportunity for people to make better use of

1052
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: their brains and their bodies.

1053
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you so much.

1054
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:22,520
Speaker 1: You're welcome.

1055
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 2: And we end every episode of On Purpose with a

1056
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: final five. These have to be answered in one word

1057
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 2: to one sentence, Doctor David Spiegel. These are your fast five.

1058
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 2: Your final five. Question number one is what is the

1059
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 2: best advice you've ever heard or received?

1060
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: I would say the best advice came from reading Kirker

1061
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 1: Guard Fear and Trembling, which is that what we are

1062
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 1: is about relationships and relating to ourselves that don't get

1063
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: stuck in any one image of who you are, which

1064
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: is not so different from what you write about with

1065
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: mindful illness.

1066
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 2: Second, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

1067
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 1: Don't think about purple elephants.

1068
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: Question number three, which you can expand on, is how

1069
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 2: do we get over our fear of revisiting the past

1070
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 2: technotherapy opening up to new modalities that we you know,

1071
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 2: that aren't as familiar even you know, we're almost not

1072
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 2: scared to put a pill in our body or injection

1073
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 2: as you said, or sometimes have a surgery, but these

1074
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 2: things feel scarier.

1075
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: Well, try it, you'll like it, you know, I think

1076
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 1: that's the nice thing about it. You know. The biggest

1077
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 1: risk is it might not work. There are no side effects.

1078
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:53,439
Speaker 1: You know. Opioids killed eighty eight thousand Americans last year.

1079
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: Hypnosis has not succeeded yet in killing anybody. Let's see

1080
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 1: see so I think try it. You know, we tend

1081
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 1: our culture is so overprocessed. You know, it's all you know,

1082
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: big companies, things processing and a lot of times what

1083
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: we do with our food and our medications and other

1084
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: things make us worse rather than better. So this is

1085
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 1: a do it yourself approach with some training, and that's

1086
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: what I want people to do.

1087
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 2: Amazing. And the question number four, how would you define

1088
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 2: your current purpose?

1089
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 1: My current purpose is helping people help themselves. That's what

1090
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 1: I want to do, and that's why I say all

1091
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: hypnosis help hypnosis. I'm not a magician. I'm not doing

1092
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 1: anything to you, and my purpose is to just spread

1093
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 1: it as widely as we can, as quick as we can. Amazing.

1094
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 2: And fifth and final question, if you could create one

1095
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 2: law that everyone in the world had to follow, what

1096
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 2: would it be.

1097
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 1: It would be that a Supreme Court judge could last

1098
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 1: no longer than fifteen years. We need the rule of

1099
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: law and we're losing it absolutely.

1100
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 2: Doctor David Spieagle, thank you so much for joining. I

1101
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:10,919
Speaker 2: hope that our audience will practice along with me, join

1102
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 2: Reverie and continue to connect with Dr David Spiegel's work.

1103
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 2: Such a joy and honor to be with you today

1104
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 2: and so grateful for you making the trip over, and

1105
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 2: I look forward to reconnecting very soon.

1106
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: Thank you. I hope so, and I so admire what

1107
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: you're doing and helping people discover what they can do

1108
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 1: for themselves within themselves. Thank you, Thank you so much.

1109
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 2: If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with

1110
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 2: Dr Gabor Matte on understanding your trauma and how to

1111
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 2: heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

1112
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 1: Everything in nature goes only where it's vulnerable. So a

1113
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: tree doesn't go over it's hard and thif does it.

1114
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.