1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: A black van with tinted windows is parked in front 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: of an Art nouveau building not far from Munich's English garden. 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: It's September. The COVID nineteen vaccine drive is in full swing, 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: with countries around the world debating just who should get 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: booster shots. Inside the Munich villa's heavy door is a 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: narrow entry foyer that leads up a wooden staircase. There's 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: a cluster of people coming down. It's Germany's star scientists 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: erz Lam, Too, Duchy and war Shachen. There the husband 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: and wife duo behind BioNTech, Weiser's partner for the COVID vaccine, 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: and they're on their way out of a meeting with 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: the company's chairman, Helmett yuggla ertz Lam and Uer say 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: hello politely and then head out the door. Helmett is 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: waiting upstairs to talk to me about BioNTech and it's 14 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 1: race to develop a messenger RNA vaccine. Helmett laughs when 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: I asked what they talked about that day. Next generation 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: m R and A treatments are in everyone's mind. Next 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: generation now next generation No, of course, we have to 18 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: think about how we developed the company because of the 19 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: situation now. Helmont has known the BioNTech founders since two 20 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: thousand seven. He was working then for the strong One Brothers, 21 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: the German billionaires who helped fund the company. He's been 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: involved with Biontic since the beginning and chairman of the 23 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: board since two thousand eight. When we talked, it had 24 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: been almost a year since Helmot, Uger, and utz Lum 25 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: found out that the bet on BioNTech and a messenger 26 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: RNA technology had paid off in the biggest possible way. 27 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: Helmote compares it to a moon landing. You plan and 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: you work and you prepare, and it's all THEO nicole 29 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: until you step out the door of your spacecraft and 30 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: suddenly you're there. It's almost hard to believe that you've 31 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: actually made it. He tells me that after he heard 32 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: the news from Ugre about how well the vaccine worked 33 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: in a patient trial, he left his phone at home 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: and went out for a walk. He lives out in 35 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: the country, and it was a peaceful night. He says. 36 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: He figured it would be his last quiet night for 37 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: a while. That's exactly why I want to enjoy this 38 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: moment quietly myself. Helmont turned out to be right. The 39 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: vaccine isn't just one of human kind's best weapons so 40 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: far against the COVID pandemic. It's also the vindication for 41 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: an entirely new field of medicine. Suddenly, messenger RNA vaccines 42 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: are the world's best selling drugs, and suddenly the young 43 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: biotechs that developed them, Germany's BioNTech and modern of from 44 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: the US, are among the world's most closely scrutinized drug makers. 45 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: Everybody wants to know what their next step will be. 46 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to the eighth episode of our series. This time 47 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: we're looking at what's next for the biggest scientific breakthrough 48 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: to emerge out of the COVID pandemic, Messenger RNA vaccines. 49 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: Up until last year, it wasn't even clear that they'd 50 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: work at all. Now everyone from hospitals and drug makers 51 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: to Wall Street are waiting to see where else they 52 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: can be used and what the payoff could be for 53 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: patients and for the company's The technology could help engineer 54 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: a better flu shop, for example, but its potential goes 55 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: far beyond zapping viruses. Messenger RNA is being tested in 56 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 1: cancer medicines and in heart disease. Some researchers are also 57 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: studying whether it could be useful against autoimmune diseases like 58 00:03:55,320 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: multiple sclerosis, or even treat genetic illnesses like sickle cell anemia. UH. 59 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: Some argue that we can't even imagine how widely this 60 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: technology will eventually be used, and then eventually there won't 61 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: even be such a thing as an m R and 62 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: a vaccine company. That the technology will become so widespread 63 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: that it's just another piece of the puzzle for drugmakers 64 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: working in all sorts of fields. My name is Naomi 65 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: Kraski and I'm a health reporter for Blue Broke News 66 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: from the Prognosis podcast. This is Breakthrough. That's the sound 67 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: of equipment at BioNTech's headquarters in Minz, Germany. It's about 68 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: a half hour drive west of the Frankfurt airport. Okay, 69 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: what do you see here? Inside? The lab and infrastructure 70 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: director frescois Perrino is showing me around. I've been at 71 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: BioNTech offices before, in late and I'm struck by what 72 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: has changed and what has stayed the same. Now they 73 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: have a fence and a security officer who takes his 74 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: time letting me in, but the building itself doesn't look 75 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: any fancier than it did before. Most farmer headquarters that 76 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: I've visited have a certain class. Eveneer there tends to 77 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: be a lot of modern art soaring atriums and high 78 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: tech elevators. Not by on Tech. We mostly take the stairs, 79 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: which is okay because the building is only a couple 80 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: of stories tall. The labs are on the same floor 81 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: as the CEO's office. They've been adding research space and 82 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: equipment though, so this is a kind of workbench where 83 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: all the stereo processes are performed, kind of The whole 84 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: facility is called cell Culture facility, and within this facility 85 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: we do all our experiments with south sets from human 86 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: For example, when for us while joined by on Tech, 87 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: in about five fifty people worked at the Mind's headquarters. 88 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: Now it's about three times as many, and most of 89 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: the development of the car Are Community Vaccine was performed 90 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: inside police facilities over here. The wholesale culture facility is 91 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: approximately about four d square meters and it's just about psyculturing. 92 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: We're there in the late afternoon, so the labs have 93 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: emptied out quite a bit. A few scientists linger taking 94 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: advantage of the quiet to finished projects. Some of the 95 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: people we meet are working on research that's still far 96 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: from being ready to be tested in patients. The mind's 97 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: facility also makes R and A for use in research 98 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: and development. BioNTech is pouring its COVID vaccine profits into 99 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 1: its pipeline of new experimental medicines. Company scientists are working 100 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: on some infectious disease projects, including vaccines from malaria, HIV, 101 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: and tuberculosis. None of those are far enough along to 102 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: be tested in humans, though the more advanced part of 103 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: the pipeline is almost entirely potential cancer treatments. The companies 104 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: running nineteen patient trials and cancer About half of these 105 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: are m R and A vaccines. In fact, before the 106 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: COVID pandemic, BioNTech was basically a cancer company. As we 107 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: learned in last week's episode. It didn't work on infectious 108 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: disease vaccines until mid when its signed a deal with 109 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: Fisser to develop a flu shot, but it's already treated 110 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: about six hudd patients and cancer trials. Most were small 111 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: studies designed to look at safety. That's how drug development works. First, 112 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: you test a potential medicine and only a few people, 113 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: and if it's shown to be safe, you can move 114 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: on to testing its efficacy in a bigger it. You 115 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: might see some hints of an impact against disease in 116 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: phase one, but that's not really what those trials are 117 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: designed to find out. But thanks to the COVID vaccine cash, 118 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: BioNTech has been able to move quickly on the bigger 119 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: studies it will need to push its cancer programs forward. 120 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: One of those programs is called Ionest. Essentially, it's a 121 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: personalized m R and a cancer vaccine. We're standing in 122 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: front of a washing machine sized piece of equipment in 123 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 1: one of the labs. It's crucial to the project and 124 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: this machine is uh, yeah, it's very important. It's very 125 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: important for us because this is one of, let's say, 126 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: kind of the heart for our analysis for the Ionest treatment. 127 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: In order to make a personalized cancer vaccine, BioNTech has 128 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: to sequence the genetic code of each patient's tumor. The 129 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: researchers use this machine to do the sequencing. So every 130 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: every the tumor is caused by different mutations inside the genome, 131 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: and we have to have a look at the TOLO 132 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: genome to be sure that we if we find or 133 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 1: that we that we identify the mutations and that we 134 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: know how to shape the m RNA computer algorithm helps 135 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: them find the special pattern of mutations that's unique to 136 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: the tumor not found elsewhere in the body. Then bion 137 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: text teams can take that pattern and build a template 138 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: for an m r and A treatment. Remember how the 139 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: m r and A vaccine for COVID works. It delivers 140 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: instructions for cells to make the spike protein of the 141 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: stars copy two virus that jolts the immune system into action, 142 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: so if it encounters the real virus, it can act 143 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: quickly to stop it. The m RNA cancer vaccine would 144 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: train the body's immune system too, but to attack a tumor, 145 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: not a virus. It's a treatment, not a preventative measure, 146 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: and the mr and A is, let's say, the needed 147 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: trigger for your immune system. Bion Tech already has some 148 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: promising results with Ainest in a small trial with just 149 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: thirteen patients. It's now testing the technology and bigger studies 150 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: and melanoma and colorectal cancer. Like for the COVID vaccine, 151 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: they're working with an experienced partner. It's one of the 152 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: biggest cancer drugmakers in the world, a Swiss company called 153 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: Roche Holding. You may have heard of Roche's u S 154 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: unit called Genentech. I wanted to get Roche's view on 155 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: m R and A cancer vaccines, so I called Charlie Fuchs, 156 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: who runs their oncology and hematology product development. He's the 157 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: former director of Yale Cancer Center and as an oncologist, 158 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: he helped run huge clinical trials for other successful cancer immunotherapies. 159 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: Charlie says the COVID vaccine's success is a good sign 160 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: for the likelihood of m R and A technology working 161 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: for cancer too. Seeing that on a population level and 162 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: seeing the validation in patients that this technology really does 163 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: enable a robust immune responses, I think is an important 164 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: step in believing that we can leverage this technology for cancer. Still, 165 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: just because MR and A vaccines worked against COVID doesn't 166 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: mean they'll stop tumors. You know, Viruses are tiny little 167 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:33,719 Speaker 1: packages of limited genetic code that can create havoc by 168 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: interfering with functions the normal functions of a human cell, 169 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: or for that matter, creating an immune response. That's harmful, 170 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: but um they're very limited. Cancers are a lot more complex. 171 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 1: They're a lot better at defending themselves. Cancers are human 172 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: cells that have mutated to leverage the full extent of 173 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: the machinery and genetic code of a complex human cell, 174 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: such that it will um become a lignan spread and 175 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: because it has the availability of the entire human genome 176 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: associated with it, that it can actually come up with 177 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: lots of different mechanisms to overcome response to cancer therapy, 178 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: to sustain itself, to avoid the immune surveillance. This is 179 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: one reason that doctors often combine cancer therapies, and that's 180 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: one reason, unfortunately, the cancer treatments sometimes stop helping after 181 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: a few months or years, and so there's just a 182 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: lot more to deal with when you're developing a cancer 183 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: therapy as opposed to a virus, which is a tiny 184 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: little compartment of very limited genetic code, very limited DNA 185 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: r n A. Charlie tells me he thinks they'll have 186 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: a better sense of how well m r n A 187 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: vaccines can help with cancer treatment within the next two years. 188 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: Thinking about Charlie's words, when I talk with BioNTech chief 189 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: medical officer, it's them too, Rechi a few weeks later. 190 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: She and her husband, Ushahi, and the CEO are also oncologists. 191 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: They treated patients for years before they started BioNTech. We 192 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: spent most of our time at the patient's bedside. That 193 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: was the motivation to provide better medicines for those patients 194 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: whom we had to tell that we had nothing to 195 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: offer him. Some agrees that cancer is a tougher target 196 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: than COVID for the immune system Sara's COVIE two is 197 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: foreign cancer as part of us. So it's not about 198 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: a about preventing, it's about melting away a substantial to 199 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: more burden. So there are already immune suppressive mechanisms where 200 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: cancer has installed, and you have to to fight against 201 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: them and fight against immune tolerance because it's not really 202 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: a foreign protein which you are using as target and 203 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: um so this is a very different, higher challenge. All 204 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: those years working to optimize mRNA technology for cancer vaccines 205 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: helped when it came time to make the COVID chat. 206 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: I think the reason why we have been successful for 207 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: in COVID nineteen is that we have sharpened our weapons 208 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: against cancer with all those um yeah, higher thresholds for 209 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: for success. And once they'd optimized mRNA for cancer, Reson 210 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: tells me, they started realizing there would be potential and 211 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: lots of other diseases too. They want to develop mRNA 212 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: treatments for autoimmune diseases illnesses in which the body attacks itself. 213 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: Multiple sclerosis is one example for a disease like MS 214 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: and mr and A vaccine will work in the opposite 215 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: way how it's used against cancer or covids. Some explains. 216 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: We have shown that while for cancer or infects disease vaccines, 217 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: the mrn A is used to deliver two signals or messages, namely, 218 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: on the one hand, to present the target, for example 219 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: the COVID nineteen spike protein or a tumor integen plus, 220 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: to provide um the message that the immune system needs 221 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: to attack, in particular that the c D eight killer 222 00:15:54,800 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: T cells need to be directed against this the target. 223 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: For autoimmune diseases, m RNA vaccine would still wave a 224 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: flag for the immune system to recognize something, but the 225 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: second message we deliver is that the immune system, once 226 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: it cease this target, needs to calm down and needs 227 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: to accept this target and not a tack, so it's 228 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: telling the body to stop turning against itself. BioNTech has 229 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: had a successful experiment in this area with mice, but 230 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: there's still quite a ways a way from having an 231 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: mr ANDA vaccine to test in people with autoimmune diseases. Moderna, 232 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: the other mRNA code vaccine maker, is also working on 233 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: an autoimmune disease project. Moderna is also working on mRNA 234 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: based cancer vaccines andicistic fibrosis treatment, as well as the 235 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: treatment for heart disease, and it has a broad palette 236 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: of other potential mRNA vaccines for infectious diseases, everything from 237 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: zeka and FLEW to HIV. I caught up with one 238 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: of the early investors in BioNTech, a German venture capitalist, 239 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: in Matthias Cromeyer, at a conference in Berlin to find 240 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: out more about the broader field. And you need to 241 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: keep in mind that m RNA is at the center 242 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: of any biological process. I mean, any gene that gets 243 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: expressed is expressed via m RNA. Matthias's firm, MiG Capital, 244 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: gave BioNTech about fifteen million dollars in seed money in 245 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: two thousand eight. It was migg's best investment ever. Now, 246 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: he says the approach could be useful in any kind 247 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: of genetic disorder where the body doesn't make something that 248 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: it should, from diabetes to hemophilia or rare diseases. But 249 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: the first chance to see the proof of the pudding 250 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: will be the cancer trials oncology. It's definitely oncology because 251 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: this is where the company's are most advanced. So I 252 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: would expect for approvals um provided that these these studies 253 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: work out nicely. First approvals in twenty four or twenty five. 254 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: That's a lot longer than it took to get the 255 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: COVID vaccines approved. But in drug development terms, it's actually 256 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: pretty fast. It just takes longer to see whether an 257 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: experimental treatment can help cancer patients then it does to 258 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: see whether a vaccine can stop a virus from making 259 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: people sick. First of all, you can't recruit twenty cancer 260 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: patients in in a couple of weeks time. Secondly, the 261 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: endpoint in in in the COVID are In the COVID 262 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: nineteen um immune immunized population, it took only weeks to 263 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: reach the endpoint um of a number of events in 264 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: oncologies usually years that you need to wait until people 265 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: have survived or not. So this is why it takes longer. 266 00:18:53,960 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: It's not because people weren't working as diligently as into 267 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: COVID lntine vaccination areas. If you talk to some of 268 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: the early pioneers in m r and A, sky is 269 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: the limit for what else the technology could do. Remember 270 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: Derek Rossi, the Harvard stem cell scientists who did important 271 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: early experiments with m RNA and founded Materna. He says 272 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: his original vision for the company wasn't vaccines at all. 273 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: Vaccines have been in production for you know, you know, 274 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: a hundred years, and they work. Uh and uh so 275 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: why reinvent the wheel? Well there's turns out, as we 276 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: now know, there is good reasons for that. It's a 277 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: faster technology, it's a more precise technology, it's a better 278 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: technology for vaccination, It's true. But what I imagined was 279 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: application towards genetic disease. Derek tells me there are six 280 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: thousand genetic diseases. He says that six thousand mutations in DNA, 281 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: which leads to bad mr and A, which leads to 282 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: a problem with the protein, leads to disease. Derek's idea 283 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: was to use mr and A vaccines to spur cells 284 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: to make the right proteins instead. Wherever protein is needed, 285 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: it can be applied. So um, that could be six 286 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: thousand genetic diseases. Uh. Oncology, cancer, mutated genes. Projects to 287 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: study how MR and A therapy can be used to 288 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: treat genetic disease are also in the works. In fact, 289 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: Drew Wiseman, the University of Pennsylvania professor who worked with 290 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: Catalan Kerry Co to answer vital early questions around m 291 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: R and A research, is now working on an m 292 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: R and A vaccine for sickle cell anemia, one of 293 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: the most common genetic disorders. The Bill and Melinda Gates 294 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,479 Speaker 1: Foundation is sponsoring the research. Drew tells me some two 295 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: thousand people are born every year with sickle cell disease, 296 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: most of them in Sub Saharan Africa. There's a here, 297 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: but it's way too expensive for a lot of these patients. 298 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: And what they do is they take a patient, they 299 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: take out a lot of bone marrow, they infect the 300 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: bone marrow with a lenty virus, and then they give 301 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: it back. That's probably a half a million dollar per 302 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: person costs for for a cycle cell cure. You can't 303 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: do two hundred bone marrow biopsies in Sub Saharan Africa. 304 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: So Drew's lab has figured out how to target bone 305 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: marrow stem cells with an m R and A treatment. 306 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: It inserts a new gene into the genome of the 307 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: stem cells. Instead of removing a patient's bone marrow, doctors 308 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: would simply need to give them an IVY injection. To 309 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: me that that changes the world, because now you can 310 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: do gene therapy with a simple injection. We should make 311 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: this clear. Program isn't in human trials yet. It's being 312 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: tested now in mice. As Drew has told us several times, 313 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: success in mice doesn't necessarily translate to humans. Drew's lab 314 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: has a laundry list of other projects as well. He's 315 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: working with BioNTech on a range of infectious disease vaccines, 316 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: and he's working on a pan coronavirus vaccine with Duke University, 317 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: the University of North Carolina, and the National Institutes of Health. 318 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: That's a shot that could work against all types of coronavirus, 319 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: is not just stars Kobe two. The idea would be 320 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: to have a vaccine that could cover whatever variant pops 321 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: up in the future, maybe even something that's ready to 322 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: go for the next pandemic. And they're working on an 323 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: MR and a vaccine against HIV. If it succeeds, that 324 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: would be transformative to HIV. The virus that causes AIDS 325 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: has alluded vaccine efforts for decades. It mutates so quickly, 326 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: the way it infects cells is very different. It forms 327 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: a long, live, latent reservoir that's hard to get rid 328 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: of um, and it has so many ways of avoiding 329 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: immune responses. Again, the HIV vaccine is a long way 330 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: from completion. Juice Team is also working with Duke and 331 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: ni H on this project. He says it's due to 332 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: start human trials next year. HIV is a much more 333 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: difficult virus, so that that's going to take a lot 334 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: more work to get it to work correctly. None of 335 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: these new MR and A vaccines and treatments will have 336 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: the same speedy trajectory as the COVID vaccine last year. 337 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: That's partly because the circumstances are so different. As we 338 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: saw in last week's episode, the pandemic was in some 339 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: ways the perfect use case for MR and A vaccine. 340 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: The vaccine makers could draw on years of prior work 341 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: from virologists on what would be the best bit of 342 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: a coronavirus to use for a vaccine. They could run 343 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: relatively quick patient trials. With COVID circulating around the globe. 344 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: There was no shortage of scope for testing the vaccine, 345 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: and the stars Cove two virus is a lot more 346 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: straightforward than cancer or HIV. Now, the companies that raced 347 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: to get COVID vaccines on the market are going to 348 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: need to start playing a more complicated game. They'll need 349 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: to reassure investors that their billions and revenues won't just 350 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: be a one off. They're grappling with a tremendous pace 351 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: of growth. Moderna in particular, has struggled to set up 352 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: a global distribution network without a big partner like Visor. 353 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: It recently said it wouldn't be able to ship as 354 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: many COVID vaccine doses as expected this year. Meanwhile, smaller 355 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: startups around the world are also working on m R 356 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: and A vaccines and treatments. When I asked Helmet Juggla, 357 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: the BioNTech chairman, about the biggest challenges ahead, he says 358 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: the company has to be careful to stay focused. We 359 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: just need to be careful that we don't go after 360 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: too many things at once, and we really need to 361 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: rule Lan's work focus. Um Helmett says he thinks bion 362 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: Tech will have more MR and A products on the 363 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: market in a few years. It reminds me of the 364 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: song by the Hungarian rock singer who appeared on that 365 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: radio interview with Catle and Currico, the pioneering MR and 366 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: A researcher in Budapest. We played some of it in 367 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: episode six. The song is about how you need to 368 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: work hard and stay the course to achieve your goals. 369 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: The diamonds and gold have a nice shine, but you 370 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: have to dig deep to get it. Catalan says her 371 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 1: favorite part of the song is about what happens when 372 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,719 Speaker 1: you finally hit your target. The lyrics roughly translated from 373 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: Hungarian are but when you reach your goal and could 374 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: be happy, you're already thinking about a new plan, already 375 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: embarking on a new road, and that's the beauty of life. BioNTech, 376 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: MODERNA and their competitors have new plans too, and it's 377 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: all about m R and A. Next week on Breakthrough, 378 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: we'll talk with the public health leaders and scientists who 379 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: are preparing for the next pandemic. Even before this one 380 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: is over. COVID has shown us health vulnerable or health 381 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: systems really are? Will we be ready when the next 382 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: pandemic comes? They are a very moder threat that emerges 383 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: from the way we have organized our societies, and they 384 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: represent a critical threat for the century. This episode of 385 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: Prognosis Breakthrough was written and reported by me Naomi Krasky 386 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: So for Fourheads and Nagus Hendrickson, our senior producers. Carl 387 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: Kevin Robinson Jr. Is our associate producer. Our theme music 388 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: was composed and performed by Hanness Brown. Philip Corne did voiceover, 389 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: and Bob Langrath and Sultan Shimon contributed reporting. Rick Shine 390 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: is our editor. Francesca Levi is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. 391 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe if you haven't already, and if 392 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: you like this episode, please leave us a review. It 393 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: helps others find out about the show. Thanks for listening.