1 00:00:01,370 --> 00:00:04,330 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,410 --> 00:00:14,420 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frey. 3 00:00:14,580 --> 00:00:18,100 Speaker 1: And I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Tracy, one of the topics 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: that's come up a couple of times for me in 5 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:22,220 Speaker 1: recent weeks as I've just been doing my own reading 6 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:26,340 Speaker 1: related to racial injustice is the Flexner Report. And this 7 00:00:26,380 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: was a report that was issued in the early 20th century. 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,339 Speaker 1: It is often credited with changing the medical field and 9 00:00:32,420 --> 00:00:35,150 Speaker 1: shaping what medical education looks today. I also found one 10 00:00:35,190 --> 00:00:38,150 Speaker 1: article that said it's the most overrated document in medical history, 11 00:00:38,190 --> 00:00:40,930 Speaker 1: which made me laugh a bit. Oh, goodness. But there 12 00:00:41,050 --> 00:00:43,690 Speaker 1: are also aspects of this document that really need to 13 00:00:43,729 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: be discussed in terms of how they impacted the Black community. 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,910 Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about this one in three parts. First, 15 00:00:49,950 --> 00:00:52,510 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about Abraham Flexner, for whom the 16 00:00:52,550 --> 00:00:55,130 Speaker 1: report is named, and who made the report. And then 17 00:00:55,450 --> 00:00:57,450 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the general impact of the 18 00:00:57,490 --> 00:01:00,870 Speaker 1: Flexner report on medicine. And finally, we will talk about 19 00:01:00,910 --> 00:01:03,930 Speaker 1: how this affected Black medical schools specifically. And it is 20 00:01:03,970 --> 00:01:06,310 Speaker 1: a lot to unpack, and I hope we manage to 21 00:01:06,350 --> 00:01:09,650 Speaker 1: do it justice. As with anything related to any of 22 00:01:09,670 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: these topics, a person's biography, the history of any given field, 23 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,170 Speaker 1: and the history of how things... impact uh racial injustice 24 00:01:18,220 --> 00:01:20,569 Speaker 1: like there are always more nuances than we could ever 25 00:01:20,630 --> 00:01:23,250 Speaker 1: pack into an episode but we're hoping we hit all 26 00:01:23,270 --> 00:01:26,050 Speaker 1: of the the prominent and pertinent points yeah if you 27 00:01:26,090 --> 00:01:29,590 Speaker 1: listen to the podcast sawbones they did an episode which 28 00:01:29,750 --> 00:01:31,070 Speaker 1: i guess at this point will be a few weeks 29 00:01:31,130 --> 00:01:35,110 Speaker 1: ago that was about racism in medicine and it uh 30 00:01:35,209 --> 00:01:38,649 Speaker 1: it alludes to this without going into much detail about 31 00:01:38,690 --> 00:01:40,289 Speaker 1: it so if you if you listen to our show 32 00:01:40,350 --> 00:01:44,009 Speaker 1: and that show these are sort of they'll complement one 33 00:01:44,069 --> 00:01:48,110 Speaker 1: another They do. They do. We didn't plan that. It 34 00:01:48,130 --> 00:01:52,820 Speaker 1: just happened. So this starts with Abraham Flexner. And Abraham 35 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: Flexner was born in Louisville, Kentucky on November 13th, 1866. 36 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: His father, Moritz Flexner, and his mother, Esther Abraham, were 37 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: German Jewish immigrants. Moritz had a hat business, and Esther 38 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,670 Speaker 1: worked as a seamstress. The Flexner family was large. Abraham 39 00:02:10,690 --> 00:02:14,370 Speaker 1: was their sixth child, and they ultimately had nine. Moritz 40 00:02:14,430 --> 00:02:17,470 Speaker 1: and Esther were able to build up their finances with 41 00:02:17,510 --> 00:02:19,730 Speaker 1: the plan not that they would live lavishly, but that 42 00:02:19,889 --> 00:02:22,350 Speaker 1: every one of their sons, and there were seven of them, 43 00:02:22,710 --> 00:02:26,310 Speaker 1: would attend college. But that plan fell apart when the 44 00:02:26,310 --> 00:02:30,740 Speaker 1: 1873 panic hit and they lost their savings. But Abraham 45 00:02:30,820 --> 00:02:34,780 Speaker 1: did manage to go to college. He attended Johns Hopkins University, 46 00:02:35,100 --> 00:02:38,990 Speaker 1: and the funds came from his brother Jacob. The span 47 00:02:39,030 --> 00:02:41,350 Speaker 1: and the ages of the Flexner children meant that Jacob 48 00:02:41,389 --> 00:02:44,890 Speaker 1: was already established by the time Abraham graduated from high school, 49 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:47,739 Speaker 1: and the money he was making as a drugstore owner 50 00:02:47,810 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: was put toward Abraham's tuition. Yeah, they definitely always prioritized 51 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: education as where they put their money. Abraham earned his B.A. 52 00:02:58,020 --> 00:03:00,700 Speaker 1: in 1886, and his hope had been to go into 53 00:03:00,740 --> 00:03:04,100 Speaker 1: a postgraduate program, but there was not enough money for that, 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: and though he did try to secure a fellowship, none materialized. 55 00:03:08,370 --> 00:03:10,850 Speaker 1: So he went home to Louisville to start his career. 56 00:03:11,389 --> 00:03:14,010 Speaker 1: For the next four years, Flexner worked as a high 57 00:03:14,030 --> 00:03:16,970 Speaker 1: school teacher, heading up the Latin and Greek classes at 58 00:03:17,010 --> 00:03:20,130 Speaker 1: Louisville High School. But during that time, he was developing 59 00:03:20,210 --> 00:03:22,709 Speaker 1: another idea because he thought there was a better way 60 00:03:22,770 --> 00:03:27,770 Speaker 1: to structure education. And that idea manifested as an experimental school, 61 00:03:27,970 --> 00:03:31,370 Speaker 1: and Flexner founded that school in 1890. That school was 62 00:03:31,410 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: simply called Mr. Flexner School, and it was incredibly progressive. 63 00:03:35,540 --> 00:03:38,550 Speaker 1: The structure probably seemed like no structure at all to 64 00:03:38,590 --> 00:03:42,090 Speaker 1: traditional educators. Flexner did away with the idea of a 65 00:03:42,130 --> 00:03:45,410 Speaker 1: set curriculum. Students did not have exams, and they did 66 00:03:45,450 --> 00:03:49,060 Speaker 1: not receive grades. The vision that Flexner had for this 67 00:03:49,090 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: school was custom-tailored education to prepare students for higher learning. 68 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: And a lot of his students got into very good schools, 69 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: so this was a very successful model. The Flexner family 70 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,820 Speaker 1: continued to value education and help one another in that regard. 71 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,020 Speaker 1: One of the personal benefits for Abraham Flexner in creating 72 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,270 Speaker 1: his school was that he could enroll his brother Simon 73 00:04:11,310 --> 00:04:14,370 Speaker 1: there and get him into Johns Hopkins. He was also 74 00:04:14,450 --> 00:04:17,690 Speaker 1: able to pay for Simon's tuition. Abraham also helped his 75 00:04:17,730 --> 00:04:21,289 Speaker 1: sister Mary. He paid her way at Bryn Mawr. This 76 00:04:21,390 --> 00:04:24,030 Speaker 1: marks an expansion of the family's plan to not only 77 00:04:24,190 --> 00:04:26,690 Speaker 1: educate the men of the family, but also the women. 78 00:04:27,029 --> 00:04:30,089 Speaker 1: And education for women was something that Abraham supported throughout 79 00:04:30,130 --> 00:04:34,289 Speaker 1: his life. One of the former pupils in Flexner's preparatory school, 80 00:04:34,450 --> 00:04:37,710 Speaker 1: a young woman named Anne Crawford, also became an important 81 00:04:37,750 --> 00:04:42,299 Speaker 1: part of Abraham's life. After graduating, Anne had become a teacher. 82 00:04:42,710 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: She had attended Vassar, and when she finished those studies, 83 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: she started working there at the school. And she also 84 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: had started to pursue a career as a playwright. Abraham 85 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:52,870 Speaker 1: and Anne fell in love, and they were married in 1898. 86 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:58,310 Speaker 1: And they eventually had two daughters, Jean and Eleanor. In 1904, 87 00:04:58,310 --> 00:05:01,570 Speaker 1: Anne adapted the novel Mrs. Wiggs of the Cabbage Patch, 88 00:05:01,990 --> 00:05:05,130 Speaker 1: which is a comedic story about an impoverished Southern family, 89 00:05:05,570 --> 00:05:09,300 Speaker 1: into a Broadway play. Mrs. Wiggs ran from September 3rd, 90 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: 1904 through January 1905 at the Savoy Theater, and it 91 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,099 Speaker 1: was a success. The income from Anne's work on the 92 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: show made it possible for Abraham to enroll at Harvard 93 00:05:19,180 --> 00:05:22,580 Speaker 1: to get his master's degree in psychology. He closed his 94 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: school to do that, He also spent a year in 95 00:05:25,690 --> 00:05:29,090 Speaker 1: Germany as part of his studies, again bankrolled through his 96 00:05:29,170 --> 00:05:32,530 Speaker 1: wife's success in the theater. That time spent in Germany 97 00:05:32,610 --> 00:05:35,330 Speaker 1: made Flexner deeply aware of what he saw as the 98 00:05:35,370 --> 00:05:39,390 Speaker 1: failings of the education system back home. And as a result, 99 00:05:39,529 --> 00:05:42,690 Speaker 1: in 1908, he researched and wrote an assessment of higher 100 00:05:42,750 --> 00:05:47,300 Speaker 1: education in the United States titled... The American College, A Criticism. 101 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,990 Speaker 1: Based on his work examining colleges and identifying what he 102 00:05:52,050 --> 00:05:55,190 Speaker 1: saw as the problems at the single school level, as 103 00:05:55,250 --> 00:05:59,390 Speaker 1: well as systematically, Flexner was commissioned by the Carnegie Foundation 104 00:05:59,710 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: for a new project. He was asked by the president 105 00:06:02,510 --> 00:06:06,220 Speaker 1: of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, that 106 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,940 Speaker 1: was Henry Smith Pritchett, to apply that same critical and 107 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,820 Speaker 1: analytical eye to the medical institutions, specifically in the United 108 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:20,219 Speaker 1: States and Canada. There were 155 medical schools in his survey. Yeah, 109 00:06:20,260 --> 00:06:22,940 Speaker 1: he took two years to basically travel around and visit 110 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,300 Speaker 1: all these schools and do his assessment. And then in 1910, 111 00:06:26,300 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: Flexner completed his report, which was titled Medical Education in 112 00:06:29,860 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: the United States and Canada. And when this report came out, 113 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: it had a massive impact on medical education in North America. 114 00:06:37,110 --> 00:06:40,450 Speaker 1: A lot of the schools that Flexner had found lacking 115 00:06:40,750 --> 00:06:44,750 Speaker 1: closed as a consequence of its publication. Others were completely 116 00:06:44,870 --> 00:06:48,190 Speaker 1: overhauled and essentially rebuilt from the ground up. And we're 117 00:06:48,210 --> 00:06:50,089 Speaker 1: going to talk more about all of that in just 118 00:06:50,130 --> 00:06:53,970 Speaker 1: a moment. Following the medical school report, Flexner produced a 119 00:06:54,029 --> 00:06:57,590 Speaker 1: report at the behest of the Rockefeller Foundation examining the 120 00:06:57,690 --> 00:07:00,420 Speaker 1: sex work field in Europe and how it was regulated. 121 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,020 Speaker 1: It was the first of many varied reports that Flexner 122 00:07:04,060 --> 00:07:07,020 Speaker 1: would compile for the foundation. But though he had moved 123 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,740 Speaker 1: on to other projects like that, Flexner did not just 124 00:07:09,860 --> 00:07:12,500 Speaker 1: drop his medical report and then move on with his life. 125 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:19,140 Speaker 1: he actually dedicated himself to improving medical education specifically. In 1913, 126 00:07:19,140 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: following his report on European sex work, Flexner became the 127 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:28,310 Speaker 1: secretary to the Rockefeller Foundation's General Education Board. During this 128 00:07:28,410 --> 00:07:30,690 Speaker 1: time in his role, he worked on a number of 129 00:07:30,810 --> 00:07:33,650 Speaker 1: other research and reporting projects, as we mentioned, but he 130 00:07:33,770 --> 00:07:37,610 Speaker 1: also made sure that money from private donors was allocated 131 00:07:37,670 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: to medical education institutions and improving some of the problems 132 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,090 Speaker 1: he had discovered while working on his 1910 report. In 1921, 133 00:07:45,090 --> 00:07:48,550 Speaker 1: Abraham Flexner wrote a memo for the Rockefeller Foundation's board, 134 00:07:48,710 --> 00:07:52,650 Speaker 1: which was titled The Usefulness of Useless Knowledge. And this 135 00:07:52,770 --> 00:07:55,900 Speaker 1: memo evolved, and it became a lecture, and then 18 136 00:07:55,900 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: years after he initially wrote it, it was published in 137 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: Harper's Magazine. And that piece of writing opens with the 138 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:06,260 Speaker 1: following paragraph. Quote, Is it not a curious fact that 139 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,460 Speaker 1: in a world steeped in irrational hatreds which threaten civilization itself, 140 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: men and women, old and young, detach themselves wholly or 141 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:18,180 Speaker 1: partly from the angry current of daily life to devote 142 00:08:18,220 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: themselves to the cultivation of beauty, to the extension of knowledge, 143 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,700 Speaker 1: to the cure of disease, to the amelioration of suffering, 144 00:08:26,230 --> 00:08:31,150 Speaker 1: just as though fanatics were not simultaneously engaged in spreading pain, ugliness, 145 00:08:31,290 --> 00:08:35,030 Speaker 1: and suffering? The world has always been a sorry and 146 00:08:35,070 --> 00:08:38,990 Speaker 1: confused sort of place, yet poets and artists and scientists 147 00:08:39,050 --> 00:08:42,910 Speaker 1: have ignored the factors that would, if attended to, paralyze them. 148 00:08:43,690 --> 00:08:47,170 Speaker 1: From a practical point of view, intellectual and spiritual life is, 149 00:08:47,330 --> 00:08:50,350 Speaker 1: on the surface, a useless form of activity, in which 150 00:08:50,429 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: men indulge because they procure for themselves greater satisfactions than 151 00:08:54,510 --> 00:08:58,380 Speaker 1: are otherwise obtainable. In this paper, I shall concern myself 152 00:08:58,420 --> 00:09:00,740 Speaker 1: with the question of the extent to which the pursuit 153 00:09:00,820 --> 00:09:05,190 Speaker 1: of these useless satisfactions proves unexpectedly the source from which 154 00:09:05,410 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: undreamed-of utility is derived. One of the things that Flexner 155 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: touches on in this writing is the unintentional outcomes of 156 00:09:13,260 --> 00:09:17,450 Speaker 1: pursuits that were of pure intent. He specifically mentions how 157 00:09:17,510 --> 00:09:21,569 Speaker 1: the advancement of the cruelty of warfare was fueled by 158 00:09:21,670 --> 00:09:25,050 Speaker 1: scientists who were often working they thought were the betterment 159 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,060 Speaker 1: of mankind. As the 1920s wore on, Abraham Flexner found 160 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:32,020 Speaker 1: himself at odds with other members of the education board 161 00:09:32,059 --> 00:09:35,500 Speaker 1: at the Rockefeller Foundation. And this led to him ultimately 162 00:09:35,540 --> 00:09:40,370 Speaker 1: being pushed out of the organization in 1928. In 1929, 163 00:09:40,370 --> 00:09:46,010 Speaker 1: Abraham Flexner was approached by philanthropist siblings Lewis and Caroline Bamberger. 164 00:09:46,030 --> 00:09:49,170 Speaker 1: The Bambergers thought they could use their wealth to establish 165 00:09:49,290 --> 00:09:52,230 Speaker 1: a new medical school in Newark, New Jersey, and they 166 00:09:52,270 --> 00:09:55,910 Speaker 1: wanted Flexner as an advisor on the project. But Flexner 167 00:09:55,970 --> 00:09:59,130 Speaker 1: pointed out that Newark had neither a teaching hospital nor 168 00:09:59,150 --> 00:10:02,310 Speaker 1: a top-notch university. both of which were vital to the 169 00:10:02,350 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: success of a medical school. And Abraham Flexner was really 170 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,380 Speaker 1: thinking of a different sort of project, and he was 171 00:10:08,530 --> 00:10:11,580 Speaker 1: able to convince the Bambergers that they should instead invest 172 00:10:11,620 --> 00:10:14,500 Speaker 1: in his idea. And they did, with a gift of 173 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:19,050 Speaker 1: $ 5 million. Flexner envisioned what he would later call an 174 00:10:19,210 --> 00:10:22,970 Speaker 1: educational utopia that offered the greatest minds a place where 175 00:10:22,990 --> 00:10:26,660 Speaker 1: they could be driven entirely by their curiosity. And so 176 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: in 1930, Flexner founded the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, 177 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: New Jersey. and served as director there until 1939. Its 178 00:10:35,860 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: mission stated, quote, the institute is pledged to assemble a 179 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:42,610 Speaker 1: group of scientists and scholars who with their pupils and 180 00:10:42,650 --> 00:10:45,790 Speaker 1: assistants may devote themselves to the task of pushing beyond 181 00:10:45,870 --> 00:10:49,030 Speaker 1: the present limits of human knowledge and to training those 182 00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:52,229 Speaker 1: who may carry on in this sense. Flexner was able 183 00:10:52,270 --> 00:10:55,050 Speaker 1: to attract some of the biggest names to his institute, 184 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,460 Speaker 1: including Albert Einstein, who joined in 1933. In the years 185 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,450 Speaker 1: since its founding, the Institute has had, as members or 186 00:11:02,530 --> 00:11:08,350 Speaker 1: as faculty, 34 Nobel laureates, 42 Fields Medalists, and 18 187 00:11:08,350 --> 00:11:12,530 Speaker 1: Able Prize laureates. In addition to Einstein, notable names on 188 00:11:12,570 --> 00:11:16,270 Speaker 1: that list include Robert Oppenheimer and previous podcast subject John 189 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:19,190 Speaker 1: von Neumann. We're going to cover the end of Flexner's 190 00:11:19,230 --> 00:11:21,890 Speaker 1: life and the impact of his work on medical education, 191 00:11:22,090 --> 00:11:24,390 Speaker 1: but we're due for a quick break to have a 192 00:11:24,429 --> 00:11:34,450 Speaker 1: word from our sponsors. The same year that he opened 193 00:11:34,510 --> 00:11:39,390 Speaker 1: his institute, Abraham also published another book about education. This time, 194 00:11:39,410 --> 00:11:42,190 Speaker 1: it was a comparative review of how schools ran in 195 00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:48,410 Speaker 1: different countries, titled Universities, American, English, German. Flexner retired as 196 00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:52,740 Speaker 1: director at the institute in 1939 after an internal conflict 197 00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: in which the school was accused of allowing an anti-Semitic 198 00:11:56,260 --> 00:12:00,530 Speaker 1: climate at Princeton. that they routinely worked with. They were 199 00:12:00,570 --> 00:12:02,890 Speaker 1: allowing that climate to hinder the work of a lot 200 00:12:02,910 --> 00:12:06,890 Speaker 1: of the professors. As tensions among the scholars and leadership 201 00:12:06,970 --> 00:12:11,370 Speaker 1: wore on, Flexner retired in the autumn of 1939. Although 202 00:12:11,390 --> 00:12:13,910 Speaker 1: he was in his 70s, he stayed very busy after 203 00:12:13,970 --> 00:12:18,230 Speaker 1: leaving the Institute, consulting on various projects and writing several books, 204 00:12:18,370 --> 00:12:22,550 Speaker 1: including his autobiography. During and after World War II, several 205 00:12:22,580 --> 00:12:26,220 Speaker 1: of Abraham's siblings died. By the end of the 1940s, 206 00:12:26,370 --> 00:12:29,290 Speaker 1: only Abraham and his sister Gertrude were still living out 207 00:12:29,309 --> 00:12:32,980 Speaker 1: of the nine Flexner siblings. At the same time, his 208 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:37,460 Speaker 1: wife Anne had gradually developed vascular dementia. In 1947, Anne 209 00:12:37,820 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: had declined so seriously that she was taken to a 210 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,590 Speaker 1: Rhode Island sanitarium. Their two daughters frequently visited her, and 211 00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:47,589 Speaker 1: they updated their father, but Abraham never saw Anne again. 212 00:12:48,170 --> 00:12:50,650 Speaker 1: He had not coped with her illness well and could 213 00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: not bear to have the person that he had been 214 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,540 Speaker 1: so close to no longer recognize him. He later told 215 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,339 Speaker 1: friends that he had actually had a breakdown during this time. 216 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,780 Speaker 1: As he recovered from this significant change in his life, 217 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,170 Speaker 1: Flexner moved to a hotel near Central Park and enrolled 218 00:13:06,190 --> 00:13:09,809 Speaker 1: in classes at Columbia. He opted for classes in literature 219 00:13:09,929 --> 00:13:13,650 Speaker 1: and history. In 1951, the New York Times read an 220 00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:18,809 Speaker 1: article about the 85-year-old Flexner, educational reformer, taking classes alongside 221 00:13:18,850 --> 00:13:22,590 Speaker 1: co-eds a quarter his age. Anne died shortly before Abraham's 222 00:13:22,830 --> 00:13:26,250 Speaker 1: 90th birthday, which once again sent him into a dark period. 223 00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:29,340 Speaker 1: And as he was slowly returning to his old self, 224 00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: his daughter Jean convinced him to leave New York and 225 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: move to Falls Church, Virginia, which is where she lived, 226 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:36,980 Speaker 1: so that he could be near her. And he spent 227 00:13:37,059 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: two years there enjoying a very active social life and 228 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,699 Speaker 1: visiting the museums of nearby Washington, D.C. regularly before his 229 00:13:43,740 --> 00:13:47,929 Speaker 1: death on September 21, 1959. So moving on to his 230 00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:52,730 Speaker 1: report about medical schools, as we mentioned, Flexner covered 155 231 00:13:52,730 --> 00:13:56,309 Speaker 1: schools in his 1910 report. And in researching that report, 232 00:13:56,350 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: he had visited each school and written detailed and comprehensive 233 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: notes about their entrance requirements, faculty funding, laboratories, and connections 234 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,300 Speaker 1: with affiliated hospitals. In the five decades before his research, 235 00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:13,020 Speaker 1: massive advances in science and medicine had been made, but 236 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,130 Speaker 1: because there was no comprehensive guidance for how medical schools operated, 237 00:14:17,610 --> 00:14:21,250 Speaker 1: a lot of them were still teaching out-of-date information, basically 238 00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:25,530 Speaker 1: telling future doctors stuff that wasn't believed to be true anymore. 239 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: This was in large part because the faculty at many 240 00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:32,820 Speaker 1: medical schools consisted largely of practicing physicians who were teaching 241 00:14:32,940 --> 00:14:36,940 Speaker 1: exactly as they had been taught without updating that information 242 00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: with the changing times. Bacteriology, diagnostic developments, and surgical techniques 243 00:14:42,980 --> 00:14:46,060 Speaker 1: were all rapidly changing fields. And if a school wasn't 244 00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:48,940 Speaker 1: keeping up, the doctors they trained were in danger of 245 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: offering their patients poor or outdated care at best and 246 00:14:52,780 --> 00:14:56,590 Speaker 1: endangering their lives at worst. To compound that problem, there 247 00:14:56,610 --> 00:14:59,740 Speaker 1: were a lot of new medical schools opening with totally 248 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:05,380 Speaker 1: varied standards for entry. When Flexner published his study, 74% 249 00:15:05,380 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: of the medical schools that were open required only a 250 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,620 Speaker 1: high school education for admission. Some were willing to accept 251 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: high school equivalency certificates, which meant that there was really 252 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,380 Speaker 1: no clear standard. Only a fifth of the schools required 253 00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:22,470 Speaker 1: two or more years of college prior to entry. Many 254 00:15:22,510 --> 00:15:28,370 Speaker 1: were essentially profit-driven businesses. Abraham Flexner was also very frank 255 00:15:28,430 --> 00:15:31,310 Speaker 1: in his report about how little the public really knew 256 00:15:31,390 --> 00:15:34,590 Speaker 1: about the workings of any given medical school. He wrote 257 00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:39,090 Speaker 1: in the introduction, quote, Educational institutions, particularly those which are 258 00:15:39,130 --> 00:15:42,910 Speaker 1: connected with a college or a university, are peculiarly sensitive 259 00:15:42,990 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: to outside criticism, and particularly to any statement of the 260 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: circumstances of their own conduct or equipment which seems to 261 00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:55,250 Speaker 1: them unfavorable in comparison with that of other institutions. As 262 00:15:55,310 --> 00:15:58,490 Speaker 1: a rule, the only knowledge which the public has concerning 263 00:15:58,550 --> 00:16:01,810 Speaker 1: an institution of learning is derived from the statements given 264 00:16:01,930 --> 00:16:06,030 Speaker 1: out by the institution itself, information which, even under the 265 00:16:06,070 --> 00:16:09,970 Speaker 1: best circumstances, is colored by local hopes, ambitions, and points 266 00:16:10,030 --> 00:16:13,370 Speaker 1: of view. Flexner felt that this work was vital and 267 00:16:13,410 --> 00:16:16,170 Speaker 1: important to be doing, writing that the information in it 268 00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:19,670 Speaker 1: was of importance not just to medical practitioners, but to, quote, 269 00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:24,210 Speaker 1: every citizen of the United States and Canada. Abraham Flexner, 270 00:16:24,390 --> 00:16:27,210 Speaker 1: building on standards that were already in place in Germany, 271 00:16:27,810 --> 00:16:31,340 Speaker 1: established standards of evaluation for the medical schools in his 272 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,270 Speaker 1: study and then judged each one against those criteria. And 273 00:16:35,290 --> 00:16:37,170 Speaker 1: we should note that he was not the first person 274 00:16:37,210 --> 00:16:39,860 Speaker 1: to do this in the United States. The Association of 275 00:16:39,890 --> 00:16:44,060 Speaker 1: American Medical Colleges, founded in 1876 and consisting of 22 276 00:16:44,060 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: member schools, had agreed on curriculum standards to provide uniformity 277 00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:52,500 Speaker 1: in medical education. That had happened after an assessment of 278 00:16:52,540 --> 00:16:56,900 Speaker 1: the state of medical education. The AAMC continued to grow 279 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,750 Speaker 1: and re-evaluate in the years between its founding and Flexner's reports. 280 00:17:01,410 --> 00:17:05,550 Speaker 1: The American Medical Association had similarly started issuing reports on 281 00:17:05,590 --> 00:17:09,590 Speaker 1: the status of medical education as early as 1848, and 282 00:17:09,609 --> 00:17:12,670 Speaker 1: some of the criteria they used were present in Flexner's 283 00:17:12,730 --> 00:17:17,070 Speaker 1: evaluation system as well. But neither of these had oversight 284 00:17:17,210 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: over all medical schools. It was an opt-in on a 285 00:17:20,820 --> 00:17:24,899 Speaker 1: set of standards. All of Flexner's work was aimed at determining, 286 00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: in his opinion, whether a school was able to effectively 287 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,340 Speaker 1: teach its students modern medicine. The model that he drew 288 00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:35,659 Speaker 1: up for what this looked like included admittance requirements of 289 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,700 Speaker 1: college-level biology, chemistry, and physics courses, a curriculum with both 290 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: lecture and lab teaching of anatomy, pathology, bacteriology, and pharmacology, 291 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: among other courses, access to teaching hospitals for hands-on experience, 292 00:17:51,580 --> 00:17:55,500 Speaker 1: salaried faculty who were exclusively working in teaching and research, 293 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,670 Speaker 1: not practicing doctors who just taught on the side. Flexner 294 00:17:59,750 --> 00:18:02,770 Speaker 1: laid out his findings state by state and school by school. 295 00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:06,090 Speaker 1: He was detailed, calling out if he had found dirty 296 00:18:06,210 --> 00:18:09,890 Speaker 1: labs or lax standards. He criticized the way the days 297 00:18:09,930 --> 00:18:13,230 Speaker 1: were scheduled at schools and how exhausted students were often 298 00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:17,620 Speaker 1: sitting through hours of dull lectures by part-time faculty. Because 299 00:18:17,660 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: he was an outsider, an education reformer, rather than a 300 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,350 Speaker 1: member of the medical community, his assessment was without preconception 301 00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:27,330 Speaker 1: and it was brutally honest, offering the general public a 302 00:18:27,470 --> 00:18:29,910 Speaker 1: startling look at the way people who cared for their 303 00:18:29,970 --> 00:18:34,409 Speaker 1: health were being educated. Flexner advocated for state licensing boards 304 00:18:34,490 --> 00:18:37,820 Speaker 1: to take a more assertive role in modernizing medicine by 305 00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:40,980 Speaker 1: refusing to license graduates from schools that were not up 306 00:18:41,020 --> 00:18:44,260 Speaker 1: to standards. And he believed that a lot of schools 307 00:18:44,340 --> 00:18:47,609 Speaker 1: were not up to standards. In the end, he recommended 308 00:18:47,650 --> 00:18:51,850 Speaker 1: that 120 of the 155 he reviewed for the report 309 00:18:51,890 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: should be closed. That recommendation was based on his assessments 310 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,900 Speaker 1: that their standards were very poor and that they were 311 00:18:57,940 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: not keeping up scientifically, and thus were creating poorly educated 312 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: doctors who lacked up-to-date knowledge in their field, which was 313 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,970 Speaker 1: something he saw as a completely obvious danger to public health. 314 00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: Canadian schools, we should mention, fared much better than their U.S. 315 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,700 Speaker 1: counterparts overall. Only one school there made Flexner's list of 316 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,020 Speaker 1: closing recommendations. It was not closed, though they did have 317 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: a little bit of a review of their curriculum and 318 00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:25,939 Speaker 1: their standards and changed up a little. Many of the 319 00:19:26,030 --> 00:19:29,910 Speaker 1: schools in the U.S. that he recommended be closed did close. 320 00:19:30,490 --> 00:19:33,129 Speaker 1: Within a decade, there were only half as many medical 321 00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:36,510 Speaker 1: schools as there had been when Flexner's report was published. 322 00:19:37,340 --> 00:19:40,700 Speaker 1: Those that had remained had reformed their standards and their courses, 323 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: and their lab work and clinical teaching had been significantly changed, 324 00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:47,910 Speaker 1: and in most cases modernized. For all of the change 325 00:19:47,950 --> 00:19:51,179 Speaker 1: that was catalyzed by the report, Fleck's became famous as 326 00:19:51,220 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: an educational reformer. We're going to pause here before we 327 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,859 Speaker 1: dig into the ramifications of Flexner's work for Black medical 328 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:01,690 Speaker 1: schools specifically. So here, in the meantime, are some of 329 00:20:01,730 --> 00:20:04,230 Speaker 1: the sponsors that keep Stuff You Missed in History class going. 330 00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:14,699 Speaker 1: Before we talk about the effects of the Flexner Report 331 00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:17,650 Speaker 1: on the Black population in the U.S. and its medical schools, 332 00:20:17,710 --> 00:20:19,990 Speaker 1: we should give a brief sense of what was going 333 00:20:20,090 --> 00:20:23,590 Speaker 1: on in that space prior to 1910. The first Black 334 00:20:23,650 --> 00:20:26,050 Speaker 1: man in the U.S. to receive a medical degree was 335 00:20:26,090 --> 00:20:29,530 Speaker 1: David J. Peck. He received a degree from Rush Medical 336 00:20:29,570 --> 00:20:33,070 Speaker 1: School in Chicago in 1847. As a note, he was 337 00:20:33,109 --> 00:20:36,820 Speaker 1: not the first Black doctor in the U.S. That's usually 338 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:42,300 Speaker 1: cited as formerly enslaved James Durham, who was born in 339 00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:45,820 Speaker 1: 1762 and learned medicine through an apprenticeship. In the 13 340 00:20:45,820 --> 00:20:49,060 Speaker 1: years after Peck's graduation, there were a handful of other 341 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: Black med students who graduated with degrees in the U.S., 342 00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:56,230 Speaker 1: Nine medical schools had established that they would admit Black 343 00:20:56,290 --> 00:21:01,510 Speaker 1: students by 1860, including the Medical School of Harvard University, 344 00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:05,149 Speaker 1: Bowdoin Medical School in Maine, and the Medical School of 345 00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:08,469 Speaker 1: the University of New York. In the late 1860s, the 346 00:21:08,530 --> 00:21:11,550 Speaker 1: first medical school for Black students opened. That was Howard 347 00:21:11,609 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: University Medical School in Washington, D.C., and it opened in 1868. 348 00:21:14,869 --> 00:21:19,910 Speaker 1: Eight years later, Meharry Medical College opened in Nashville, Tennessee. 349 00:21:20,850 --> 00:21:25,090 Speaker 1: From 1876 to 1904, another six Black medical schools opened, 350 00:21:25,230 --> 00:21:28,629 Speaker 1: including Leonard Medical School, which became Shaw University in Raleigh, 351 00:21:28,670 --> 00:21:34,390 Speaker 1: North Carolina, New Orleans University Medical College, Knoxville College Medical Department, 352 00:21:34,470 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: that became Knoxville Medical College, Chattanooga National Medical College, and 353 00:21:39,140 --> 00:21:43,340 Speaker 1: University of West Tennessee College of Physicians and Surgeons. The 354 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,820 Speaker 1: schools listed there are ones that were open when Flexner 355 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,810 Speaker 1: compiled the report. There had been others that had folded 356 00:21:49,890 --> 00:21:54,820 Speaker 1: before the 1908 research started. That included Lincoln University in Oxford, Pennsylvania, 357 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: which had opened in 1870 and closed four years later. 358 00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: Strait University Medical Department was established in New Orleans in 1873, 359 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:08,450 Speaker 1: but was disbanded in 1874. Hannibal Medical College of Memphis, Tennessee, 360 00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:13,170 Speaker 1: had opened in 1889, but closed in 1896. Louisville State's 361 00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:19,190 Speaker 1: University Medical Department ran from 1899 to 1903. Chattanooga National 362 00:22:19,210 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: Medical College closed in 1904 after five years in operation. 363 00:22:24,060 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: The Medical Society of the District of Columbia was founded 364 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,530 Speaker 1: in 1817. That society was for whites only. The American 365 00:22:32,550 --> 00:22:36,430 Speaker 1: Medical Association was founded in 1847, and though Black doctors 366 00:22:36,530 --> 00:22:39,709 Speaker 1: applied to become members, for years they were denied entry. 367 00:22:39,730 --> 00:22:41,710 Speaker 1: We're going to come back to the AMA in just 368 00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:45,820 Speaker 1: a bit. The Medico-Chirurgical Society was founded as a Black 369 00:22:45,859 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: medical society in 1884 because of the impossibility that Black 370 00:22:50,140 --> 00:22:54,469 Speaker 1: doctors faced gaining admittance to those established groups. The National 371 00:22:54,510 --> 00:22:58,149 Speaker 1: Medical Association was founded in 1895 for Black doctors for 372 00:22:58,190 --> 00:23:02,030 Speaker 1: the same reason. It was not until the 1950s that 373 00:23:02,090 --> 00:23:05,970 Speaker 1: Black doctors had gained admittance to medical societies in most states. 374 00:23:06,430 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: In the midst of this clear division and racism, the 375 00:23:09,820 --> 00:23:14,580 Speaker 1: Flexner Report was released. Flexner had often been lauded for 376 00:23:14,619 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: his role as a reformer, and as we've discussed, reform 377 00:23:17,740 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: did need to happen. He was obviously blunt and often 378 00:23:21,290 --> 00:23:24,750 Speaker 1: scathing in his critiques of individual schools. And the schools 379 00:23:24,810 --> 00:23:27,590 Speaker 1: for Black med students were no different. In his report, 380 00:23:27,630 --> 00:23:30,370 Speaker 1: he wrote, quote, of the seven medical schools for Negroes 381 00:23:30,430 --> 00:23:32,570 Speaker 1: in the United States, five are at this moment in 382 00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:36,189 Speaker 1: no position to make any contribution of value. While he 383 00:23:36,270 --> 00:23:40,190 Speaker 1: praised both Howard and Meharry as worth developing, the rest 384 00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:44,150 Speaker 1: were deemed basically useless. This assessment did not take into 385 00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:47,030 Speaker 1: account the fact that Black medical schools charged much lower 386 00:23:47,070 --> 00:23:50,930 Speaker 1: tuition than white schools, had fewer endowments, and were operating 387 00:23:50,990 --> 00:23:54,850 Speaker 1: on much narrower margins. In his assessment, he wrote, quote, 388 00:23:55,390 --> 00:23:59,030 Speaker 1: The Negro needs good schools rather than many schools. He 389 00:23:59,090 --> 00:24:01,850 Speaker 1: went on to elaborate that it was important for Black 390 00:24:01,890 --> 00:24:06,030 Speaker 1: doctors to be well-educated. He understood that Black doctors would 391 00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:08,610 Speaker 1: see to the health of the Black population, and since 392 00:24:08,650 --> 00:24:11,409 Speaker 1: the Black population was a part of the larger whole... 393 00:24:11,619 --> 00:24:15,379 Speaker 1: Their care was important. But the language that Flexner used 394 00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:17,580 Speaker 1: throughout this section where he talked about all of this 395 00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:21,609 Speaker 1: is a very mixed bag. He simultaneously speaks of the 396 00:24:21,670 --> 00:24:25,110 Speaker 1: rights and contributions of Black people, but also asserts that 397 00:24:25,150 --> 00:24:27,390 Speaker 1: it is best if Black doctors take care of their 398 00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:30,750 Speaker 1: own people and offers the teaching of hygiene as one 399 00:24:30,770 --> 00:24:33,630 Speaker 1: of the most important duties of Black doctors and nurses 400 00:24:34,130 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: rather than life-saving skills, which is just inherently racist. Every 401 00:24:38,530 --> 00:24:42,610 Speaker 1: Black medical college that Flexner called out as subpar closed. 402 00:24:43,150 --> 00:24:46,010 Speaker 1: The first four had shut their doors by 1914. A 403 00:24:46,350 --> 00:24:50,270 Speaker 1: fifth closed in 1915. The last from the last list, 404 00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:53,430 Speaker 1: the Medical Department of the University of West Tennessee, lasted 405 00:24:53,690 --> 00:24:59,070 Speaker 1: until 1923. Howard and Meharry remained, and they still do. 406 00:24:59,690 --> 00:25:02,460 Speaker 1: The Charles R. Drew Medical School in Los Angeles was 407 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,340 Speaker 1: the next predominantly Black medical school to open. That didn't 408 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,470 Speaker 1: happen until 1966. Listen to our episodes on Brown v. Board. Like, 409 00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: that seems late in the creation of a medical school. 410 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,460 Speaker 1: But that school was founded, like, specifically to respond to 411 00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:22,850 Speaker 1: medical access needs within the Black community. The next was 412 00:25:23,150 --> 00:25:26,770 Speaker 1: Morehouse School of Medicine in Atlanta in 1975. So the 413 00:25:26,810 --> 00:25:30,290 Speaker 1: narrowing of options for prospective Black doctors left a huge 414 00:25:30,410 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: care gap for the Black community. Many potential physicians were 415 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: excluded from educational opportunities due to location, which meant that 416 00:25:38,380 --> 00:25:40,659 Speaker 1: the care of Black patients was often doled out by 417 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,180 Speaker 1: white doctors who, even in the best of circumstances, met 418 00:25:44,220 --> 00:25:47,550 Speaker 1: their duties with inherent racial bias. And as we have 419 00:25:47,590 --> 00:25:51,210 Speaker 1: discussed on the show before, there were definite racist abuses 420 00:25:51,290 --> 00:25:53,930 Speaker 1: of power in the medical system, and this has had 421 00:25:54,130 --> 00:25:58,790 Speaker 1: far-reaching and ongoing consequences. A panel was assembled by the 422 00:25:58,830 --> 00:26:03,709 Speaker 1: American Medical Association's Institute for Ethics in 2005. to examine 423 00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:07,050 Speaker 1: the history of racism in the medical profession. One of 424 00:26:07,090 --> 00:26:10,870 Speaker 1: their findings was that the Carnegie Foundation's project, for which 425 00:26:10,910 --> 00:26:14,389 Speaker 1: they hired Flexner, that had been sponsored by the AMA 426 00:26:14,450 --> 00:26:17,820 Speaker 1: as well, although that hadn't been disclosed at the time. 427 00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: Flexner's line of good schools rather than many schools had 428 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,660 Speaker 1: ensured that medicine stayed segregated and that communities who needed 429 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,110 Speaker 1: doctors the most were just left without them. Yeah, there 430 00:26:29,140 --> 00:26:33,149 Speaker 1: are some question marks that continue about whether or not 431 00:26:33,490 --> 00:26:36,350 Speaker 1: someone associated with the AMA was actually with him on 432 00:26:36,410 --> 00:26:40,290 Speaker 1: some of those school visits. And at some points in history, 433 00:26:40,970 --> 00:26:42,820 Speaker 1: he said that that person was with him. And then 434 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,340 Speaker 1: later on, he was like, no, no, no, no, no. 435 00:26:44,380 --> 00:26:46,899 Speaker 1: Like they met me there. Like it it shifted. So 436 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: we don't really know if there was even more hands 437 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,220 Speaker 1: on direction of that report in that regard or not. 438 00:26:52,780 --> 00:26:55,750 Speaker 1: A lecture on the now-defunct black med schools by Dr. 439 00:26:55,850 --> 00:26:59,250 Speaker 1: Earl H. Harley of Washington, D.C., was published in the 440 00:26:59,290 --> 00:27:02,410 Speaker 1: Journal of the National Medical Association in September of 2006. 441 00:27:02,410 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: And in it, Dr. Harley summarized how black medical schools, 442 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,419 Speaker 1: which have always been smaller, with a higher percentage of 443 00:27:09,460 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: graduates going into medicine for underserved communities, have continued to 444 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,050 Speaker 1: face obstacles in the centuries since Flexner's report, writing, quote, 445 00:27:17,530 --> 00:27:20,409 Speaker 1: One of the greatest challenges of today's Black medical schools 446 00:27:20,550 --> 00:27:24,070 Speaker 1: is economics. Black medical schools find it difficult to compete 447 00:27:24,130 --> 00:27:27,930 Speaker 1: with well-funded majority universities with a long-standing commitment to train 448 00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:32,130 Speaker 1: African Americans, such as the University of Michigan. The result 449 00:27:32,210 --> 00:27:36,250 Speaker 1: may be the siphoning of well-qualified, highly competitive African American 450 00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:40,629 Speaker 1: students who choose, quote, rich schools for pragmatic economic reasons. 451 00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:44,770 Speaker 1: This places an extra burden on today's Black medical schools 452 00:27:44,910 --> 00:27:47,990 Speaker 1: of appealing to a higher social calling as they seek 453 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,619 Speaker 1: to fulfill their historic missions. While they search for greater 454 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: endowments to become more attractive, they must continue to position 455 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: themselves as the training grounds for those who will serve 456 00:27:58,300 --> 00:28:01,740 Speaker 1: the underserved. So this brings up a natural question. Did 457 00:28:02,380 --> 00:28:07,140 Speaker 1: Flexner realize the disproportionate impact of his report on Black 458 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: med students and doctors and patients? He spoke at length 459 00:28:10,820 --> 00:28:13,940 Speaker 1: about race throughout his life, but what were his intentions 460 00:28:13,980 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: with this 1910 report? And I mean, apart from his intentions, 461 00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:20,390 Speaker 1: the effects that we just mentioned. Yeah, but we don't 462 00:28:20,430 --> 00:28:23,369 Speaker 1: know what his mindset was. And there are different schools 463 00:28:23,430 --> 00:28:25,050 Speaker 1: of thought on it. You can talk to a lot 464 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,129 Speaker 1: of people and they will give you completely different answers 465 00:28:27,190 --> 00:28:30,940 Speaker 1: for whether or not they thought that there was racism 466 00:28:30,980 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 1: in the mix or if Flexner really understood this. He 467 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: did know that he was limiting the scope of Black medicine. 468 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,940 Speaker 1: He said so in his report, although it is part 469 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,820 Speaker 1: of a rather idealist passage that reads, quote, the upbuilding 470 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: of Howard and Meharry will profit the nation much more 471 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: than the inadequate maintenance of a larger number of schools. 472 00:28:50,740 --> 00:28:53,740 Speaker 1: They are, of course, unequal to the need and opportunity, 473 00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:56,860 Speaker 1: but nothing will be gained by satisfying the need or 474 00:28:56,940 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: of rising to the opportunity through the survival of feeble, 475 00:29:00,380 --> 00:29:05,140 Speaker 1: ill-equipped institutions, quite regardless of the spirit which animates the promoters. 476 00:29:06,090 --> 00:29:09,110 Speaker 1: In 1930, Flexner wrote a letter to the trustees of 477 00:29:09,170 --> 00:29:14,250 Speaker 1: his Institute for Advanced Studies in which he advocated against discrimination. Quote, 478 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: no account shall be taken directly or indirectly of race, religion, 479 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,410 Speaker 1: or sex. We feel strongly that the spirit characteristic of 480 00:29:31,470 --> 00:29:34,870 Speaker 1: America at its noblest, above all the pursuit of higher learning, 481 00:29:35,230 --> 00:29:38,790 Speaker 1: cannot admit of any conditions as to personnel other than 482 00:29:38,830 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: those designated to promote the objects for which this institution 483 00:29:42,260 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: is established, and particularly with no regard whatever to accidents 484 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,090 Speaker 1: of race, creed, or sex. It appears that Flexner's progressive 485 00:29:50,170 --> 00:29:54,450 Speaker 1: ideas about equality, particularly in relation to race, probably came 486 00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:58,210 Speaker 1: from his childhood in Louisville. One biographer who is very 487 00:29:58,270 --> 00:30:01,130 Speaker 1: sympathetic to Flexner, Thomas Neville Bonner, made the case in 488 00:30:01,190 --> 00:30:04,190 Speaker 1: his book about Flexner that when Abraham was growing up 489 00:30:04,250 --> 00:30:07,230 Speaker 1: in Louisville, Kentucky, it was a time when, while there 490 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,420 Speaker 1: was certainly nothing akin to equality, there were more services 491 00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:13,980 Speaker 1: and opportunities for the city's Black community than in a 492 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: lot of other places. There were a dozen schools for 493 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,380 Speaker 1: Black students there when Abraham was growing up, and professional 494 00:30:20,460 --> 00:30:23,530 Speaker 1: training schools in teaching medicine and law were available there. 495 00:30:24,370 --> 00:30:26,850 Speaker 1: to Black residents, and the Flexners, who were not wealthy, 496 00:30:27,050 --> 00:30:29,990 Speaker 1: lived in a neighborhood where they had Black neighbors. Abraham 497 00:30:30,050 --> 00:30:32,110 Speaker 1: noted later in his life that he and his siblings 498 00:30:32,630 --> 00:30:35,620 Speaker 1: often played with the Black children in their neighborhood. This 499 00:30:35,650 --> 00:30:39,020 Speaker 1: experience may have left Abraham Flexner a little idealistic about 500 00:30:39,060 --> 00:30:41,420 Speaker 1: the realities of life for the Black families that he 501 00:30:41,460 --> 00:30:44,700 Speaker 1: knew and socialized with. To him, it seemed obvious that 502 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: any of the kids he played with could grow up 503 00:30:46,540 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: to do the same kinds of jobs that he and 504 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,170 Speaker 1: his siblings could do. But it seems that he didn't 505 00:30:51,290 --> 00:30:53,070 Speaker 1: really come to terms with the fact that there were 506 00:30:53,130 --> 00:30:56,190 Speaker 1: plenty of other people who didn't see things this way. 507 00:30:56,970 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: He acknowledged during his lifetime that he didn't realize that 508 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,900 Speaker 1: the Black students he had known growing up were so 509 00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:05,180 Speaker 1: deeply disadvantaged until later in his life when he was 510 00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:10,730 Speaker 1: researching and analyzing educational institutions. After his retirement from the Institute, 511 00:31:10,810 --> 00:31:13,770 Speaker 1: both before and after World War II, Flexner was pretty 512 00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:17,590 Speaker 1: outspoken against prejudice. He made a radio broadcast in which 513 00:31:17,650 --> 00:31:21,190 Speaker 1: he stated his disappointment that democracy hadn't brought more equality 514 00:31:21,290 --> 00:31:24,770 Speaker 1: to the relationship between races. After the war, he spoke 515 00:31:24,810 --> 00:31:27,530 Speaker 1: about how far behind England the U.S. was in terms 516 00:31:27,570 --> 00:31:31,420 Speaker 1: of both religious and racial prejudice. But his feelings about 517 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: prejudice are complicated. I'll also say that that's an interesting 518 00:31:37,780 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: note about England and the U.S. in terms of religious 519 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,100 Speaker 1: and racial prejudice. Right. I feel like Flexner always compared 520 00:31:45,140 --> 00:31:48,180 Speaker 1: the U.S. to European countries he had visited, and he 521 00:31:48,260 --> 00:31:50,810 Speaker 1: always found the U.S. lacking by comparison, but some of 522 00:31:50,830 --> 00:31:56,390 Speaker 1: that is definitely a rose-colored-glasses situation. Yeah, yeah. I don't 523 00:31:56,430 --> 00:32:00,330 Speaker 1: know when he made that statement, but something that's going 524 00:32:00,350 --> 00:32:02,230 Speaker 1: to come up in an episode we're going to record 525 00:32:02,290 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: shortly is, like, about racism in England specifically. Anyway, back 526 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,620 Speaker 1: to the subject at hand. His feelings about prejudice are complicated. 527 00:32:13,540 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: Although he had been raised by devout Jewish parents, Abraham 528 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: and his siblings all drifted away from the Jewish faith, 529 00:32:18,820 --> 00:32:23,670 Speaker 1: and they considered themselves secular Jews. When he encountered antisemitism, 530 00:32:23,770 --> 00:32:27,250 Speaker 1: he tended to presume the person involved was ignorant instead 531 00:32:27,290 --> 00:32:29,270 Speaker 1: of malicious, and he just brushed it off and went 532 00:32:29,330 --> 00:32:32,020 Speaker 1: on with his life. But he was in a position 533 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,180 Speaker 1: to be able to do that. Antisemitism doesn't seem to 534 00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:38,710 Speaker 1: have materially impacted his career or his life. Yeah, this 535 00:32:38,770 --> 00:32:40,810 Speaker 1: is definitely one of those cases where I think he 536 00:32:40,850 --> 00:32:45,710 Speaker 1: doesn't realize that he was, you know, enjoying a certain 537 00:32:45,750 --> 00:32:47,620 Speaker 1: degree of privilege and being able to be like, oh, 538 00:32:47,630 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: you don't like me? Okay. I still have plenty of opportunities, 539 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,180 Speaker 1: which is not how it works for everybody. The true 540 00:32:54,260 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: depth of racism against the Black community was clearly a 541 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,530 Speaker 1: blind spot in his work, and that left a lasting 542 00:32:59,570 --> 00:33:02,990 Speaker 1: legacy on both Black physicians and patients that is still 543 00:33:03,090 --> 00:33:05,940 Speaker 1: felt today. He just thought that medical schools and other 544 00:33:05,980 --> 00:33:09,260 Speaker 1: institutions of higher learning should be admitting students regardless of 545 00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:12,180 Speaker 1: their sex, color, or religion. But he didn't seem to 546 00:33:12,260 --> 00:33:14,700 Speaker 1: recognize that there was a whole world of obstacles that 547 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,810 Speaker 1: had to be addressed to get to the point where 548 00:33:16,850 --> 00:33:19,170 Speaker 1: students who weren't white or weren't male could even be 549 00:33:19,210 --> 00:33:23,510 Speaker 1: applying to medical school, let alone get through the admission process. 550 00:33:24,490 --> 00:33:26,969 Speaker 1: And in a way, it struck me while I was 551 00:33:27,030 --> 00:33:29,650 Speaker 1: researching this that his own idealism put him in this 552 00:33:29,690 --> 00:33:33,180 Speaker 1: situation not dissimilar to the scientist's that he once wrote 553 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: about who accidentally advanced the technologies of warfare. In his 554 00:33:37,340 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: work for school reform, the already disadvantaged Black schools simply 555 00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: could not keep pace with standards that required money and 556 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: resources they simply didn't have, and white schools were still 557 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: not often admitting Black medical students. The debate over Flexner's 558 00:33:52,140 --> 00:33:55,900 Speaker 1: intentions continues among medical historians, and if you start digging, 559 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,900 Speaker 1: you'll find people who think of him as everything from 560 00:33:59,020 --> 00:34:02,450 Speaker 1: a benevolent paternalist We've talked about a lot of those 561 00:34:02,510 --> 00:34:05,770 Speaker 1: on the show. To inherently racist. We've talked about a 562 00:34:05,780 --> 00:34:09,100 Speaker 1: lot of those, too. And this latter part is due 563 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,219 Speaker 1: to the discussion of hygiene as a primary focus for 564 00:34:12,260 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: Black physicians. There are examples of leaders from both Meharry 565 00:34:16,420 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: and Howard using similar language regarding the need for hygiene 566 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,819 Speaker 1: instruction as an important part of the service of Black doctors. 567 00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:27,150 Speaker 1: They predate Flexner's report by a couple of years. And 568 00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: this is, on its surface, inherently racist. Those leaders who 569 00:34:30,940 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: also said that that was an important part of a 570 00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:36,900 Speaker 1: Black doctor's training were also white. But it also suggests 571 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: that Flexner's statements were echoes of the school's stated missions 572 00:34:40,140 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: rather than standalone judgments that he made. And there is 573 00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:48,050 Speaker 1: also an interesting possibility, as discussed in a 2011 article 574 00:34:48,130 --> 00:34:50,130 Speaker 1: in the Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied 575 00:34:50,170 --> 00:34:53,730 Speaker 1: Sciences by Lynn E. Miller and Richard M. Weiss, that 576 00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:56,610 Speaker 1: this language was actually part of carving out a public 577 00:34:56,650 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: health role for the physicians from these schools. in an 578 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,380 Speaker 1: effort to garner support for the schools across racial divides. 579 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,140 Speaker 1: In the statements from Meharry and Howard in 1907 and 580 00:35:07,140 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: 1908 that we're talking about, those sentiments of hygiene being 581 00:35:11,060 --> 00:35:14,900 Speaker 1: the highest need are followed by mentions of how obvious 582 00:35:15,060 --> 00:35:18,739 Speaker 1: it is, thus, that these institutions should be supported. And 583 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,300 Speaker 1: there are some indicators that a number of medical schools, 584 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: Black and white, were already in an economic tailspin before 585 00:35:25,219 --> 00:35:28,620 Speaker 1: Flexner's report was released. Some of that was because there 586 00:35:28,660 --> 00:35:31,180 Speaker 1: were already efforts to try to meet the guidelines that 587 00:35:31,219 --> 00:35:33,930 Speaker 1: had been issued by the AMA, and the financial burdens 588 00:35:33,989 --> 00:35:36,069 Speaker 1: of doing that just proved to be too much to 589 00:35:36,110 --> 00:35:40,069 Speaker 1: allow for sustainability. While the discussion of Flexner's intentions and 590 00:35:40,090 --> 00:35:44,250 Speaker 1: the real ramifications of his work continues, the AMA, following 591 00:35:44,290 --> 00:35:47,070 Speaker 1: the findings of their ethics council, did issue a public 592 00:35:47,130 --> 00:35:50,980 Speaker 1: apology in 2008, quote, for its past history of racial 593 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,529 Speaker 1: inequality toward African-American physicians. and shares its current effort to 594 00:35:55,570 --> 00:35:58,810 Speaker 1: increase the ranks of minority physicians and their participation in 595 00:35:58,850 --> 00:36:02,870 Speaker 1: the AMA. The organization also announced a number of programs 596 00:36:02,989 --> 00:36:06,899 Speaker 1: aimed at encouraging minorities to pursue careers in medicine. This 597 00:36:06,980 --> 00:36:09,540 Speaker 1: is one of those cases where we're still untangling all 598 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: the tendrils of all these influences on the medical field. 599 00:36:13,060 --> 00:36:15,959 Speaker 1: That will probably continue for years to come. I wanted 600 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,610 Speaker 1: to close with another quote from Flexner's usefulness of useless knowledge. 601 00:36:20,430 --> 00:36:23,150 Speaker 1: I personally remain in a state of conflict about the 602 00:36:23,170 --> 00:36:26,110 Speaker 1: man and his work. It's like I want to support 603 00:36:26,170 --> 00:36:29,049 Speaker 1: an idealist who wants to make things better, but not 604 00:36:29,070 --> 00:36:31,230 Speaker 1: when that idealism blinds you so much that you end 605 00:36:31,290 --> 00:36:34,770 Speaker 1: up hurting people. But when I came across this passage 606 00:36:34,790 --> 00:36:37,230 Speaker 1: while I was researching, it really hit me in its 607 00:36:37,290 --> 00:36:40,970 Speaker 1: pertinence to our world today. And he wrote, quote, The 608 00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:43,930 Speaker 1: justified outcry of those who through no fault of their 609 00:36:44,030 --> 00:36:47,029 Speaker 1: own are deprived of opportunity and a fair share of 610 00:36:47,090 --> 00:36:51,049 Speaker 1: worldly goods, therefore diverts an increasing number of students from 611 00:36:51,090 --> 00:36:54,590 Speaker 1: the studies which their fathers pursued to the equally important 612 00:36:54,730 --> 00:36:59,109 Speaker 1: and no less urgent study of social, economic, and governmental problems. 613 00:36:59,790 --> 00:37:02,830 Speaker 1: I have no quarrel with this tendency. The world in 614 00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:05,130 Speaker 1: which we live is the only world about which our 615 00:37:05,150 --> 00:37:08,430 Speaker 1: senses can testify. Unless it is made a better world, 616 00:37:08,570 --> 00:37:11,529 Speaker 1: a fairer world, millions will continue to go to their 617 00:37:11,550 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: graves silent, saddened, and embittered. That is the complicated Flexner Report. Yeah. 618 00:37:21,380 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: I think it's worth knowing that, like, there's a question 619 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,660 Speaker 1: sometimes where it seems like people are kind of asking, 620 00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:32,620 Speaker 1: was he racist or was he operating from best intentions? 621 00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:36,900 Speaker 1: It can be both. Yeah, if he's operating from his 622 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,980 Speaker 1: best intentions, like, still racist though like it's impossible to 623 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 1: grow up in a position of privilege uh in a 624 00:37:46,430 --> 00:37:49,950 Speaker 1: racist society that is threaded all through with many layers 625 00:37:50,010 --> 00:37:52,770 Speaker 1: of racist yeah of racism and like to not be 626 00:37:52,810 --> 00:37:56,630 Speaker 1: racist like it is a lifelong effort to undo all 627 00:37:56,650 --> 00:37:59,250 Speaker 1: of those thinking patterns no matter how well intended you 628 00:37:59,410 --> 00:38:02,689 Speaker 1: are yeah i mean it's it's one of those things 629 00:38:02,730 --> 00:38:05,990 Speaker 1: when you read his writing he so clearly believes that 630 00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:08,510 Speaker 1: like if we just shut down all the bad Black 631 00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:10,940 Speaker 1: medical schools, these two good ones are going to be 632 00:38:11,060 --> 00:38:13,540 Speaker 1: so good that then we can expand from there and 633 00:38:13,660 --> 00:38:16,300 Speaker 1: everything will be great. And it's like he's missing so 634 00:38:16,420 --> 00:38:22,950 Speaker 1: much of the puzzle piece Like, again, in an ideal world, sure. 635 00:38:23,010 --> 00:38:29,590 Speaker 1: But like, yeah, he's he's complicated. I have complicated feelings 636 00:38:29,650 --> 00:38:33,330 Speaker 1: about him. Do you have listener mail? I do. It's 637 00:38:33,390 --> 00:38:36,250 Speaker 1: much less complicated. It's a very, very lovely listener mail 638 00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:39,730 Speaker 1: from our listener, Crystal, who writes history of science topics 639 00:38:39,790 --> 00:38:42,450 Speaker 1: is my jam, which I liked because it's mine, too. 640 00:38:43,230 --> 00:38:45,009 Speaker 1: She writes, Dear Holly and Tracy, I'm writing to say 641 00:38:45,050 --> 00:38:47,590 Speaker 1: I love your podcast. I've always enjoyed learning about history 642 00:38:47,660 --> 00:38:50,590 Speaker 1: and you make it easy to listen to. Over the 643 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,620 Speaker 1: past few months, I've been catching up with you, going 644 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: through your catalog of 2019. I'm a scientist working in 645 00:38:55,739 --> 00:38:58,380 Speaker 1: a lab in Canada, doing research with insects, and I 646 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: just love when you do podcasts on science-related topics. I 647 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,819 Speaker 1: particularly like the mention of Thomas Say from the new 648 00:39:03,860 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: Harmony episode, as he was an entomologist and taxonomist, and 649 00:39:07,140 --> 00:39:08,500 Speaker 1: I would like to know more about the lives of 650 00:39:08,540 --> 00:39:11,460 Speaker 1: these people from the past. In my work, I've been 651 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: able to help digitize historical insect specimen records. This sounds 652 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,180 Speaker 1: so cool. And I'm always amazed when I find collection 653 00:39:18,219 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: labels that say the specimen was collected during World War 654 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,350 Speaker 1: I or World War II. What were these scientists doing 655 00:39:23,390 --> 00:39:25,870 Speaker 1: during these difficult times and why were they continuing their 656 00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:30,049 Speaker 1: research and not involved in particular wartime efforts? I also... 657 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: thoroughly enjoyed learning about Chen Xiong Wu, whom I had 658 00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:35,430 Speaker 1: never heard about before. She was a pioneer in physics 659 00:39:35,489 --> 00:39:38,129 Speaker 1: and has certainly inspired me as a woman scientist. Please 660 00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:40,790 Speaker 1: share more of these kinds of stories. Lastly, I just 661 00:39:40,830 --> 00:39:43,790 Speaker 1: finished listening to your episode on the discovery of helium. Again, 662 00:39:43,830 --> 00:39:47,469 Speaker 1: I just love hearing about topics like this. Um... I 663 00:39:47,530 --> 00:39:50,810 Speaker 1: wanted to read this in part because it ties in 664 00:39:50,850 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: a little bit to Flexner's discussion of how in that 665 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: seemingly useless knowledge becoming useful, he talks about how sometimes 666 00:39:59,660 --> 00:40:03,700 Speaker 1: scientists just step away from the realities of current events 667 00:40:03,780 --> 00:40:06,180 Speaker 1: to continue to do their work. But I can't speak 668 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:10,629 Speaker 1: specifically to those specimen collectors that got those insects. Although again, 669 00:40:10,690 --> 00:40:13,910 Speaker 1: that sounds super interesting. So thank you so much, Crystal. 670 00:40:14,010 --> 00:40:18,029 Speaker 1: I love that you work in science and that there's 671 00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:21,770 Speaker 1: entomology happening under your hand. We appreciate it. And we're 672 00:40:21,830 --> 00:40:23,819 Speaker 1: grateful to be along with you on some of that journey. 673 00:40:24,739 --> 00:40:26,330 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us, You can 674 00:40:26,370 --> 00:40:30,089 Speaker 1: do so at HistoryPodcast at iHeartRadio.com. You can also find 675 00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:32,870 Speaker 1: us pretty much everywhere on social media as Missed in History. 676 00:40:33,010 --> 00:40:35,430 Speaker 1: And if you would like to subscribe, it's super easy 677 00:40:35,469 --> 00:40:37,430 Speaker 1: to do. You can do that in the iHeartRadio app, 678 00:40:37,610 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, or wherever it is you listen. Stuff 679 00:40:45,140 --> 00:40:47,980 Speaker 1: You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 680 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,830 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 681 00:40:52,989 --> 00:40:54,930 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.