1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying, and I'm Tracy P. Wilson. Uh, Tracy. 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,159 Speaker 1: One of the topics that's come up a couple of 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: times for me in recent weeks as I've just been 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: doing my own reading related to racial injustice is the 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Flexner Report. And this was a report that was issued 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century. It is often credited with 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: changing the medical field and shaping what medical education looks today. 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: I also found one article that said it's the most 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: overrated document in medical history, which made me laugh a 12 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: bit um. But there are also aspects of this document 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: that really need to be discussed in terms of how 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: they impacted the black community. So we're going to talk 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: about this one in three parts. First, we're going to 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: talk about Abraham Flexner, for whom the report is named 17 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: and who made the report. And then we're going to 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: talk about the general impact of the Flexner Report on medicine. 19 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: And finally we will talk about how this affected black 20 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: medical schools specifically. And it is a lot to unpack, 21 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: and I hope we managed to do it justice as 22 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: with anything related to any of these topics, a person's biography, 23 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: the history of any given field, and the history of 24 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: how things impact racial injustice. Like, there are always more 25 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: nuances than we could ever pack into an episode, but 26 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: we're hoping we hit all of the prominent and impertinent points. Yeah, 27 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: if you listen to the podcast Saw Bones, they did 28 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: an episode which I guess at this point will be 29 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: a few weeks ago that was about racism in medicine 30 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: and it it alludes to this without going into much 31 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: detail about it. So if you if you listen to 32 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: our show and that show, these are sort of they'll 33 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: complement one another. They do, they do. We didn't plan that, 34 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: it just happened. Uh So this starts with Abraham Flexner 35 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: and Abraham Flexner was born in Louisville, Kentucky, on November 36 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty six. His father more It's Flexner and his 37 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: mother as their Abraham, were German Jewish immigrants. More It's 38 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: had a hat business and Esther worked as a seamstress. 39 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: The Flexner family was large. Abraham was their sixth child 40 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: and they ultimately had nine. Moret's and Esther were able 41 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: to build up their finances with The plan not that 42 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: they would live lavishly, but that every one of their 43 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: sons and there were seven of them, would attend college. 44 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: But that plan fell apart when the eighteen seventy three 45 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: panic hit and they lost their savings. But Abraham did 46 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: manage to go to college. He attended Johns Hopkins University, 47 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: and the funds came from his brother, Jacob. The span 48 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: and the ages of the Flexner children meant that Jacob 49 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: was already established by the time Abraham graduated from high school, 50 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: and the money he was making as a drug store 51 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: owner was put towards Abraham's tuition. Yeah, they definitely always 52 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: prioritized education is where they put their money. Abraham earned 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: his b a In eighteen eighty six, and his hope 54 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: had been and to go into a post graduate program, 55 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: but there was not enough money for that, and though 56 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: he did try to secure a fellowship and non materialized, 57 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: so he went home to Louisville to start his career. 58 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: For the next four years, Flexner worked as a high 59 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: school teacher, heading up the Latin and Greek classes at 60 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,119 Speaker 1: Louisville High School. But during that time he was developing 61 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 1: another idea because he thought there was a better way 62 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: to structure education, and that idea manifested as an experimental school, 63 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: and Flexner founded that school in eighteen nine. That school 64 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: was simply called Mr. Flexner School, and it was incredibly progressive. 65 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: The structure probably seemed like no structure at all to 66 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: traditional educators. Flexner did away with the idea of a 67 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: set curriculum. Students did not have exams, and they did 68 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: not receive grades. The vision that Flexner had for this 69 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: school was custom tailored education to prepare students for higher learning, 70 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: and a lot of his students got into very good schools, 71 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: so this was a very successful model. The Flexner family 72 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: continued to value education and help one another in that regard. 73 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: One of the personal benefits for Abraham Flexner in creating 74 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: his school was that he could enroll his brother Simon 75 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: there and get him into JOHNS. Hopkins. He was also 76 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: able to pay for Simon's tuition. Abraham also helped his 77 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: sister Mary, he paid her way at Brent mar This 78 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: marks an expansion of the family's plan to not only 79 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: educate the men of the family, but also the women, 80 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: and education for women was something that Abraham supported throughout 81 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: his life. One of the former pupils in Flexner's preparatory school. 82 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: A young woman named Anne Crawford also became an important 83 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: part of Abraham's life after graduating and had become a teacher. 84 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: She had attended Massar in which he finished those studies. 85 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: She started working there at the school, and she also 86 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: had started to pursue a career as a playwright. Abraham 87 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: and Anne fell in love and they were married in 88 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: and they eventually had two daughters, Jean and Eleanor. In 89 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: nineteen o four, and adapted the novel Mrs Wiggs of 90 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: the Cabbage Patch, which is a comedic story about an 91 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: impoverished Southern family, into a Broadway play. Mrs Wiggs ran 92 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: from September three, nineteen o four, through January nineteen o 93 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: five at the Savoy Theater, and it was a success. 94 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: The income from Ant's work on the show made it 95 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: possible for Abraham to enroll at Harvard to get his 96 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: master's degree in psychology. He closed his school to do that. 97 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: He also spent a year in Germany as part of 98 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: his studies, again bankrolled through his wife's success in the theater. 99 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: That time spent in Germany made Flexner deeply aware of 100 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: what he saw as the failings of the education system 101 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: back home, and as a result, in nineteen o eight, 102 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: he researched and wrote an assessment of higher education in 103 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: the United States titled the American College a Criticism. Based 104 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: on his work examining colleges and identifying what he saw 105 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: as the problems at the single school level as well 106 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: as systematically, flexnerra was commissioned by the Carnegie Foundation for 107 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: an new project. He was asked by the president of 108 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, that was 109 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: Henry Smith Pritchett, to apply that same critical and analytical 110 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,119 Speaker 1: eye to the medical institutions, specifically in the United States 111 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: and Canada. There were a hundred and fifty five medical 112 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: schools in his survey. Yeah, he took two years to 113 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: basically travel around and visit all these schools and do 114 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: his assessment, and then in nt Flexner completed his report 115 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: which was titled Medical Education in the United States and Canada. 116 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: And when this report came out, it had a massive 117 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: impact on medical education in North America. A lot of 118 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: the schools that Flexner had found lacking closed as a 119 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: consequence of its publication. Others were completely overhauled and essentially 120 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: rebuilt from the ground up, and we're going to talk 121 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: more about all of that in just a moment. Following 122 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: the medical school report, Flexner produced a report at the 123 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: behest of the Rockefeller Foundation examining the sex work field 124 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: in Europe and how it was re elated. It was 125 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,679 Speaker 1: the first of many varied reports that Flexner would compile 126 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: for the Foundation. But though he had moved on to 127 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: other projects like that, Flexner did not just drop his 128 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: medical report and then move on with his life. He 129 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: actually dedicated himself to improving medical education, specifically, in nineteen thirteen, 130 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: following his report on European sex work, Flexner became the 131 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: secretary to the Rockefeller Foundation's General Education Board. During this time, 132 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: in his role, he worked on a number of other 133 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: research and reporting projects, as we mentioned, but he also 134 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: made sure that money from private donors was allocated to 135 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: medical education and improving some of the problems he had 136 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: discovered while working on his nineteen ten report. In ninety one, 137 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: Abraham Flexner wrote a memo for the Rockefeller Foundation's Board 138 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: which was titled The Usefulness of Useless Knowledge, and this 139 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: memo evolved and it became a lecture, and then, eighteen 140 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: years after he initially wrote it, it was published in 141 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: Harper's Magazine, And that piece of writing opens with the 142 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: following paragraph quote, Is it not a curious fact that, 143 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: in a world steeped in irrational hatreds which threatened civilization itself, 144 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: men and women, old and young, detached themselves wholly or 145 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: partly from the angry current of daily life, to devote 146 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: themselves to the cultivation of beauty, to the extension of knowledge, 147 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: to the cure of disease, to the amelioration of suffering, 148 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: just as though fanatics were not simultaneously engaged in spreading pain, ugliness, 149 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: and suffering. The world has always been a sorry and 150 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: confused sort of place. Yet poets and artists and scientists 151 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: have ignored the factors that would, if attended, to paralyze them. 152 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: From a practical point of view, intellectual and spiritual life is, 153 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: on the surface, a useless form of activity in which 154 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: men indulge because they procure for themselves greater satisfactions than 155 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: are otherwise obtainable. In this paper, I shall concern myself 156 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: with the question of the extent to which the pursuit 157 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: of these useless satisfactions proves unexpectedly the source from which 158 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: undreamed of utility is derived. One of the things that 159 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: Flexner touches on in this writing is the unintentional outcomes 160 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: of pursuits that were of pure intent. He specifically mentions 161 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: how the advancement of the cruelty of warfare was fueled 162 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: by scientists who were often working they thought for the 163 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: betterment of mankind. As the nineteen twenties were on, Abraham 164 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: Flexner found himself at odds with other members of the 165 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: education board at the Rockefeller Foundation, and this led to 166 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: him ultimately being pushed out of the organization in ninety eight. 167 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: In nine nine, Abraham Flexner was approached by philanthropist siblings 168 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: Lewis and Caroline Bamburger. The Bamburgers thought they could use 169 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: their wealth to establish a new medical school in Newark, 170 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: New Jersey, and they wanted Flexner as an advisor on 171 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: the project. But Flexner pointed out that Newark had neither 172 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: a teaching hospital nor a top notch university, both of 173 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: which were vital to the success of a medical school, 174 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: and Abraham Flexner was really thinking of a different sort 175 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: of project, and he was able to convince the Bamburgers 176 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: that they should instead invest in his idea, and they 177 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: did with a gift of five million dollars. Flexner envisioned 178 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: what he would later call an educational utopia that offered 179 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: the greatest minds a place where they could be driven 180 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: entirely by their curiosity, and so in nineteen thirty Flexner 181 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: founded the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey, 182 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: and served as director there until nineteen thirty nine. It's 183 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: missions stated quote, the Institute is pledged to assemble a 184 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: group of scientists and scholars who, with their pupils and assistants, 185 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: may devote themselves to the task of pushing beyond the 186 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: present limits of human knowledge, and to training those who 187 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: may carry on. In this sense, Flexner was able to 188 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: attract some of the biggest names to his institute, including 189 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: Albert Einstein, who joined in nineteen thirty three. In the 190 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: years since it's founding, the Institute has had as members 191 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: or as faculty thirty four Nobel Laureates, forty two Fields Medalists, 192 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: and eighteen Abel Prize Laureates. In addition to Einstein, notable 193 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: names on that list include Robert Oppenheimer and previous podcast 194 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: subject John von Neumann. We're going to cover the end 195 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: of Flexner's life and the impact of his work on 196 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: medical education, but we're due for a quick break to 197 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: have a word from our sponsors. The same year that 198 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 1: he opened his institute, Abraham also published another book about education. 199 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: This time it was a comparative review of how schools 200 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: ran in different countries, titled Universities American, English, German. Flexner 201 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: retired as director at the institute in nineteen thirty nine 202 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: after an internal conflict in which the school was accused 203 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: of allowing an anti Semitic climate at Princeton, a school 204 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: that they routinely worked with. They were allowing that climate 205 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: to hinder the work of a lot of the professors. 206 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: As tensions among the scholars and leadership war on. Flexner 207 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: retired in the autumn of ninety nine. Although he was 208 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: in his seventies, He stayed very busy after leaving the institute, 209 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: consulting on various projects and writing several books, including his autobiography. 210 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: During and after World War Two, several of Abraham's siblings 211 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: died by the end of the nineteen forties. Only Abraham 212 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: and his sister Gertrude were still living out of the 213 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: nine Flexner siblings. At the same time, his wife, Anne 214 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: had gradually developed vascular dementia in nine and had declined 215 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,359 Speaker 1: so seriously that she was taken to a Rhode Island sanitarium. 216 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: Their two daughters frequently visited her, and they updated their father, 217 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: but Abraham never saw Anne again. He had not coped 218 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: with her illness well and could not bear to have 219 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: the person that he had been so close to no 220 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: longer recognize him. He later told friends that he had 221 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: actually had a breakdown during this time. As he recovered 222 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: from this significant change in his life, Flexner moved to 223 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: a hotel near Central Park and enrolled in classes at Columbia. 224 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: He opted for classes in literature and history. In nineteen 225 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: fifty one, the New York Times read an article about 226 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: the eighty five year old Flexner educational reformer taking classes 227 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: alongside co Ed's, a quarter his age, and died shortly 228 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: before Abraham's ninetieth birthday, which once again sent him into 229 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: a dark period, and as he was slowly returning to 230 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: his old self, his daughter Jeane convinced him to leave 231 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: New York and moved to Falls Church, Virginia, which is 232 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: where she lived so that he could be near her, 233 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: and he spent two years there and doing a very 234 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: active social life and visiting the museums of nearby Washington, 235 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: d c. Regularly before his death on September twenty one, 236 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine. So moving on to his report about 237 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: medical schools. As we mentioned, Flexner covered a hundred and 238 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: fifty five schools in his nineteen ten report, and in 239 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: researching that report, he had visited each school and written 240 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: detailed and comprehensive notes about their entrance requirements, faculty funding, laboratories, 241 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: and connections with affiliated hospitals. In the five decades before 242 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: his research, massive advances in science and medicine had been made, 243 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: but because there was no comprehensive guidance for how medical 244 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: schools operated, a lot of them were still teaching out 245 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: of date information, basically telling future doctors stuff that wasn't 246 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: believed to be true anymore. This was in large part 247 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: because the faculty at many medical schools consisted largely of 248 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: practicing physicians who were teaching exactly as they had been 249 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: taught without updating that information with the changing times. Bacteriology, 250 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: diagnostic developments, and surgical techniques were all rapidly changing fields, 251 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: and if a school wasn't keeping up the doctors they trained, 252 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: or in danger of offering their patients poor or outdated 253 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: care at best and endangering their lives at worst. To 254 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: compound that problem, there were a lot of new medical 255 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: schools opening with totally read standards for entry. When Flexner 256 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: published to study, seventy four percent of a medical schools 257 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: that were open required only a high school education for admission. 258 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: Some were willing to accept high school equivalency certificates, which 259 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: meant that there was really no clear standard. Only a 260 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: fifth of the schools required two or more years of 261 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: college prior to entry. Many were essentially profit driven businesses. 262 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: Abraham Flexner was also very frank in his report about 263 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: how little the public really knew about the workings of 264 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: any given medical school. He wrote in the introduction quote, 265 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: educational institutions, particularly those which are connected with a college 266 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: or a university, are peculiarly sensitive to outside criticism, and 267 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: particularly to any statement of the circumstances of their own 268 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: conduct or equipment which seems to them unfavorable in comparison 269 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: with that of other institutions. As a rule, the only 270 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: knowledge which the public has concerning an institution of learning 271 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: is derived from the statements given out by the institution itself, 272 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: information which, even under the best circumstances, is colored by 273 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: local hopes, ambitions, and points of view. Flexner felt that 274 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: this work was vital and important to be doing, writing 275 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: that the information in it was of importance not just 276 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: to medical practitioners, but to quote every citizen of the 277 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: United States and Canada. Abraham Flexner, building on standards that 278 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: were already in place in Germany, established standards of evaluation 279 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: for the medical schools and his study and then judged 280 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: each one against those criteria. And we should note that 281 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: he was not the first person to do this. In 282 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: the United States, the Association of American Medical Colleges, founded 283 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy six and consisting of twenty two member schools, 284 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: had agreed on curriculum standards to provide uniformity in medical 285 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: education that had happened after an assessment of the state 286 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: of medical education. The a a m C continued to 287 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: grow and reevaluate in the years between its founding and 288 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: flex Nurse Report. The American Medical Association had similarly started 289 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: issuing reports on the status of medical education as early 290 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: as eight and some of the criteria they used were 291 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: present in Flexner's evaluation system as well, but neither of 292 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: these had oversight over all medical schools. It was an 293 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: opt in on a set of standards. All of Flexner's 294 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: work was aimed at determining, in his opinion, whether a 295 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: school was able to effectively teach its students modern medicine. 296 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: The model that he drew up for what this looked 297 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: like included admittance requirements of college level biology, chemistry, and 298 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: physics courses, a curriculum with both lecture and lab teaching 299 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: of anatomy, pathology, bacteriology, and pharmacology, among other courses, access 300 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: to teaching hospitals for hands on experience, salaried faculty who 301 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: were exclusively working in teaching and research, not practicing doctors 302 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: who just taught on the side. Flexner laid out his 303 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: finding state by state and school by school. He was 304 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: detailed calling out if he had found dirty labs or 305 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: lacks standards. He criticized the way the days were scheduled 306 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: at schools and how exhausted students were often sitting through 307 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: hours of dull lectures by part time faculty. Because he 308 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: was an outsider, an education reformer rather than a member 309 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: of the medical community. His assessment was without preconception and 310 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: it was brutally honest, offering the general public a startling 311 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: look at the way people who cared for their health 312 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: were being educated. Flexner advocated for state licensing boards to 313 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: take a more assertive role in modernizing medicine by refusing 314 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: to license graduates from schools that were not up to standards, 315 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: and he believed that a lot of schools were not 316 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: up to standards. In the end, he recommended that one 317 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: hundred twenty of the one hundred fifty five he reviewed 318 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: for the report should be closed. That recommendation was based 319 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: on his assessments that their standards were very poor and 320 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: that they were not keeping up scientifically and thus were 321 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: creating poorly educated doctors who lacked up to date knowledge 322 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: in their field, which was something he saw as a 323 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: completely obvious danger to public health. Canadian schools, we should mention, 324 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: fared much better than their US counterparts. Overall, only one 325 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: school there made Flexner's list of closing recommendations. It was 326 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: not closed, though. They did have a little bit of 327 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: a review of their curriculum and their standards and changed 328 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: up a little. Many of the schools in the US 329 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: that he recommended be closed did close. Within a decade, 330 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: there were only half as many medical schools as there 331 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: had been when Flexner's report was published. Those that had 332 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: remained had reformed their standards, and their courses and their 333 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: lab work in clinical teaching had been significantly changed and 334 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: in most cases modernized. For all of the change that 335 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: was catalyzed by the report, Flexner became famous as an 336 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: educational reformer. We're gonna pause here before we dig into 337 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: the ramifications of Flexner's work for black medical schools specifically, 338 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: so here in the meantime are some of the sponsors 339 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: that keep stuff you missed in history class going. Before 340 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: we talk about the effects of the Flextioner Report on 341 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: the black population in the US and its medical schools, 342 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: we should give a brief sense of what was going 343 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: on in that space prior to nineteen. The first black 344 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: man in the US to receive a medical degree was 345 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: David J. Peck. He received a degree from Rush Medical 346 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: School in Chicago in eighteen forty seven. As a note, 347 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: he was not the first black doctor in the US 348 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: that's usually cited as formerly enslaved. James Durham, who was 349 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: born in seventeen sixty two and learned medicine through an 350 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: apprenticeship in the thirteen years after Pack's graduation, there were 351 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: a handful of other black med students who graduated with degrees. 352 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: In the US, nine medical schools had established that they 353 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: would admit black students by eighteen sixty, including the Medical 354 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: School of Heart of Harvard University, Bowden Medical School in Maine, 355 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: and the Medical School of the University of New York. 356 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: In the late eighteen sixties, the first medical school for 357 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: black students opened. That was Howard University Medical School in Washington, 358 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: d c. And it opened in eighteen sixty eight. Eight 359 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 1: years later, Maharry Medical College opened in Nashville, Tennessee. From 360 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy six to nineteen o four, another six black 361 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: medical schools opened, including Lettern Medical School, which became Shaw 362 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: University in Raleigh, North Carolina, New Orleans University Medical College, 363 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: Knoxville College Medical Department that became Knoxville Medical College, Chattanooga 364 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: National Medical College, and University of West Tennessee College of 365 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: Physicians and Surgeons. The schools listed there are ones that 366 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: were open when Flexner compiled the report. There had been 367 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: others that had folded before the nineteen o eight research started. 368 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: That included Lincoln University in Oxford, Pennsylvania, which had opened 369 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy and closed four years later. Straight University 370 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: Medical to Artment was established in New Orleans in eighteen 371 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: seventy three, but was disbanded in eighteen seventy four. Hannibal 372 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: Medical College of Memphis, Tennessee, had opened in eighteen eighty nine, 373 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: but closed in eighteen ninety six. Louisville States University Medical 374 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: Department ran from eighteen ninety nine to nineteen o three. 375 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: Chattanooga National Medical College closed in nineteen o four after 376 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: five years in operation. The Medical Society of the District 377 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: of Columbia was founded in eighteen seventeen. That society was 378 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: for whites only. The American Medical Association was founded in 379 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: eighteen forty seven, and though black doctors applied to become 380 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: members for years, they were denied entry. We're gonna come 381 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: back to the A M and just a bit. The 382 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: Medico Turigical Society was founded as a black medical society 383 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty four because of the impossibility that black 384 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: doctors faced gaining admittance to those established groups. The National 385 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: Medical Association was founded in eighteen ninety five for black 386 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: doctors for the same reason. It was not until the 387 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties that black doctors had gained admittance to medical 388 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: societies in most states. In the midst of this clear 389 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: division and racism, the Flexner Report was released. Flexner had 390 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: often been lauded for his role as a reformer, and, 391 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: as we've discussed, reform did need to happen. He was 392 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: obviously blunt and often scathing in his critiques of individual schools, 393 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: and the schools for black men students were no different, 394 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: and his report he wrote, quote, of the seven medical 395 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: schools for negroes in the United States, five or at 396 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: this moment in no position to make any contribution of value. 397 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: While he praised both Howard and Maharry is worth developing, 398 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: the rest were deemed basically useless. This assessment did not 399 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: take into account the fact that black medical schools charged 400 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: much lower tuition than white schools, had fewer endowments, and 401 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: were operating on much narrower margins. In his assessment, he wrote, quote, 402 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,959 Speaker 1: the negro needs good schools rather than many schools. He 403 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: went on to elaborate eight that it was important for 404 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: black doctors to be well educated. He understood that black 405 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: doctors would see to the health of the black population, 406 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: and since the black population was a part of the 407 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: larger whole, their care was important. But the language that 408 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: Flexner used throughout this section where he talked about all 409 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: of this is a very mixed bag. He simultaneously speaks 410 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: of the rights and contributions of black people, but also 411 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: asserts that it is best if black doctors take care 412 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: of their own people and offers the teaching of hygiene 413 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: as one of the most important duties of black doctors 414 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: and nurses, rather than life saving skills, which is just 415 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: inherently racist. Every black medical college that Flexner called out 416 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: as subpar closed. The first four had shut their doors 417 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: by nineteen fourteen, a fifth closed in nineteen fifteen. The 418 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: last from the last list, the Medical Department of the 419 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: University of West Tennessee, lasted until Howard and Maherry remained 420 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: and they still do. The tr is Our Drew Medical 421 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: School in Los Angeles was the next predominantly black medical 422 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: school to open. That didn't happen until nineteen sixty six. 423 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: Listen to our episodes on Brown v Board Like that 424 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: seems late in the creation of a medical school um, 425 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: but that school was founded like specifically to respond to 426 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: to medical access needs within the black community. The next 427 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: was Morehouse School of Medicine in Atlanta in nineteen So 428 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: the narrowing of options for prospective black doctors left a 429 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: huge care gap for the black community. Many potential physicians 430 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: were excluded from educational opportunities due to location, which meant 431 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: that the care of black patients was often doled out 432 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: by white doctors, who, even in the best of circumstances, 433 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: met their duties with inherent racial bias. And as we 434 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: have discussed on the show before, there were definite racist 435 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: abuses of power in the medical system, and this has 436 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: had far reaching and ongoing consequences. A panel was assembled 437 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: by the American Medical Associate Institute for Ethics in two 438 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: thousand five to examine the history of racism and the 439 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: medical profession. One of their findings was that the Carnegie 440 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: Foundations project for which they hired Flexner, that had been 441 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: sponsored by the a m A as well, although that 442 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: hadn't been disclosed at the time. Flexner's line of good 443 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: schools rather than many schools, had ensured that medicine stayed segregated, 444 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: and that communities who needed doctors the most were just 445 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: left without them. Yeah, there are some question marks that 446 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: continue about whether or not someone associated with the A 447 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: m A was actually with him on some of those 448 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: school visits, and at some points in history he said 449 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: that that person was with him, and then later on 450 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 1: he was like no, no, no, no, no, like they 451 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: met me there, like it it shifted. So we don't 452 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: really know if there was even more hands on direction 453 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: of that report in that regard or not. A lecture 454 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: on the now defunct Black med schools by Dr Earl H. 455 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: Harley of Washington, d C. Was published in the Journal 456 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: of the nation No Medical Association in September of two 457 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: thousand six, and in it, Dr Harley summarized how black 458 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: medical schools, which have always been smaller with a higher 459 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: percentage of graduates going into medicine for underserved communities, have 460 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: continued to face obstacles in the century since Flexner's report, 461 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: writing quote, one of the greatest challenges of today's black 462 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: medical schools is economics. Black medical schools find it difficult 463 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: to compete with well funded majority universities with a long 464 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: standing commitment to train African Americans, such as the University 465 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: of Michigan. The result maybe the siphoning of well qualified, 466 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: highly competitive African American students who choose quote rich schools 467 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: for pragmatic economic reasons. This places an extra burden on 468 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: today's black medical schools of appealing to a higher social 469 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: calling as they seek to fulfill their historic missions. While 470 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: they search for greater endowments to become more attractive, they 471 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: must continue to position themselves as the training grounds for 472 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: those who will serve the underserved. So those brings up 473 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: a natural question. Did Flexner realize the disproportionate impact of 474 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: his report on black med students and doctors and patients? 475 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: He spoke at length about race throughout his life, But 476 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: what were his intentions with this report? And I mean, 477 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: apart from his attentions the effects that we just mentioned. Yeah, 478 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: but we don't know what his mindset was. Uh, And 479 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: there are different schools of thought on it. You can 480 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,959 Speaker 1: talk to a lot of people and they will give 481 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: you completely different answers for whether or not they thought 482 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: that there um was racism in the mix, or if 483 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: Flexner really understood this. He did know that he was 484 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: limiting the scope of black medicine. He said so in 485 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: his report, although it is part of a rather idealist 486 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: passage that reads, quote, the upbuilding of Howard and Maherry 487 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: will profit the nation much more than the inadequate maintenance 488 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: of a larger number of schools. They are, of course 489 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: unequal to the need and opportunity. But nothing will be 490 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: gained by satisfying the need, or of rising to the opportunities, 491 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: through the survival of feeble, ill equipped institutions, quite regardless 492 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: of the spirit which animates the promoters in Flexner wrote 493 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: a letter to the trustees of his Institute for Advanced 494 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: Studies and which he advocated against discrimination. Quote. It is 495 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: fundamental in our purpose and our express desire that in 496 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: the appointments to the staff and faculty, as well as 497 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: in the admission of workers and students, no account shall 498 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: be taken directly or indirectly of race, religion, or sex. 499 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: We feel strongly that the spirit characteristic of America at 500 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: its noblest, above all, the pursuit of higher learning, cannot 501 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: admit of any conditions as to personnel other than those 502 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: designated to promote the objects for which this institution is established, 503 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: and particularly with no regard whatever to accidents of race 504 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: creat or sex. It appears that Flexner's progressive ideas about equality, 505 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: particularly in relation to race, probably came from his childhood 506 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: in Louisville. One biographer who is very sympathetic to Flexner, 507 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: Thomas Neville Honor, made the case in his book about 508 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: Flexner that when Abraham was growing up in Louisville, Kentucky, 509 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: it was a time when, while there was certainly nothing 510 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: akin to equality, there were more services and opportunities for 511 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: the city's black community than in a lot of other places. 512 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: Uh there were a dozen schools for black students there 513 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: when Abraham was growing up, and professional training schools and teaching, medicine, 514 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: and law were available to black residents. And the Flexner's, 515 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: who were not wealthy, lived in a neighborhood where they 516 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: had black neighbors. Abraham noted later in his life that 517 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: he and his siblings often played with the black children 518 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: in their neighborhood. This experience may have left Abraham Flexner 519 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: a little idealistic about the realities of life for the 520 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: black families that he knew and socialized with. To him, 521 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: it seemed obvious that any of the kids he played 522 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: with could grow up to do the same kinds of 523 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: jobs that he and his siblings could do. But it 524 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: seems that he didn't really come to terms with the 525 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: fact that there were plenty of other people who didn't 526 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: see things this way. He acknowledged during his lifetime that 527 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: he didn't realize that the black students he had known 528 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: growing up were so deeply disadvantaged until later in his 529 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: life when he was researching and analyzing educational institutions after 530 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: his retirement from the Institute. Both before and after World 531 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: War Two, Flexner was pretty outspoken against prejudice. He made 532 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: a radio broadcast in which he stated his disappointment that 533 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: democracy hadn't brought more equality to the relationship between races. 534 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: After the war, he spoke about how far behind England 535 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: the US was in terms of both religious and racial prejudice. 536 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: But his feelings about prejudice are complicated. I'll also say that, um, 537 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: that's an interesting note about England in the US in 538 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:45,239 Speaker 1: terms of re I feel like Flexner always compared the 539 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: US to European countries he had visited, and he always 540 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: found the US lacking by comparison. But some of that 541 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,479 Speaker 1: is definitely a rose colored glass of situation. Yeah, yeah, 542 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know when he made that statement. Um, 543 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,959 Speaker 1: but something that is going to come up in an 544 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: episode we're gonna record shortly is like about racism uh 545 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: in England specifically. Anyway, back to the subject at hand, Uh, 546 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: His feelings about prejudice are complicated. Although he had been 547 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: raised by devout Jewish parents, Abraham and his siblings all 548 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: drifted away from the Jewish faith and they considered themselves 549 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: secular Jews. When he encountered anti semitism, he tended to 550 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: presume the person involved was ignorant instead of malicious, and 551 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: he just brushed it off and went on with his life. 552 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: But he was in a position to be able to 553 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: do that. Anti Semitism doesn't seem to have materially impacted 554 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: his career or his life. Yeah, this is definitely one 555 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: of those cases where I think he doesn't realize that 556 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: he was, you know, enjoying a certain degree of privilege 557 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: and being able to be like, oh, you don't like me, Okay, 558 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: I still have plenty of opportunities, which is not how 559 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: it works for everybody. The true depth of racism against 560 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: the black community was clearly a blind spot in his work, 561 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: and that left a lasting legacy on both black physicians 562 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: and patients that is still felt. He just thought that 563 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: medical schools and other institutions of higher learning should be 564 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: admitting students regardless of their sex, color, or religion. But 565 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: he didn't seem to recognize that there was a whole 566 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: world of obstacles that had to be addressed to get 567 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: to the point where students who weren't white or weren't 568 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: male could even be applying to medical school, let alone 569 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: get through the admission process. And in a way, it 570 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: struck me while I was researching this that his own 571 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: idealism put him in this situation not dissimilar to the 572 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: scientists that he once wrote about who accidentally advanced the 573 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: technologies of warfare. In his work for school reform, the 574 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: already disadvantaged black schools simply could not keep pace with 575 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: standards that required money and resources they simply didn't have, 576 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: and white schools were still not often admitting black medical students. 577 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: The debate over Flexner's intentions continues among medical historians, and 578 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: if you start digging, you'll find people who think of 579 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: him as everything from a benevolent but a realist. We've 580 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: talked about a lot of those on the show too 581 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: inherently racist, talked about a lot of those two um 582 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: and this this latter part is due to the discussion 583 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: of hygiene as a primary focus for black physicians. There 584 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: are examples of leaders from both Maharry and Howard using 585 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: similar language regarding the need for hygiene instruction as an 586 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: important part of the service of black doctors. They predate 587 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: Flexner's report by a couple of years, and this is 588 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,439 Speaker 1: on its surface inherently racist. Those leaders who also said 589 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: that that was an important part of a black doctor's 590 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: training we're also white. But it also suggests that Flexner's 591 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: statements were echoes of the school stated missions, rather than 592 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 1: standalone judgments that he made. And there is also an 593 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: interesting possibility, as discussed in a eleven article in the 594 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences by 595 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 1: Lynn E. Miller and Richard M. Weiss, that this language 596 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: was actually part of carving out a public health role 597 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: for the physicians from these schools in an f to 598 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: garner support for the schools across racial divides. In the 599 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: statements from Maherry and Howard in nineteen o seven and 600 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: nineteen o eight that we're talking about those sentiments of 601 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: hygiene being the highest need are followed by mentions of 602 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: how obvious it is thus that these institutions should be supported. 603 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 1: And there are some indicators that a number of medical schools, 604 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: black and white. We're already in an economic tail spin 605 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: before Flexner's report was released. Some of that was because 606 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: there were already efforts to try to meet guidelines that 607 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: had been issued by the a m A, and the 608 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: financial burdens of doing that just proved to be too 609 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: much to allow for sustainability. While the discussion of Flexner's 610 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: intentions and the real ramifications of his work continues, the 611 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: a m A, following the findings of their Ethics Council, 612 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: did issue a public apology in two thousand and eight, 613 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: quote for its past history of racial inequality toward African 614 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: American physicians, and shares its current effort to increase the 615 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: ranks of minority physicians and their participation in the a 616 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: m A. The organization also announced a number of programs 617 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 1: aimed at encouraging minorities to pursue careers in medicine. This 618 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: is one of those cases where we're still untangling all 619 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: the ten drills of all these influences on the medical 620 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: field that will probably continue for years to come. I 621 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: wanted to close with another quote from Flexner's Usefulness of 622 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 1: Useless Knowledge. I personally remain in a state of conflict 623 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: about the man and his work. Uh. It's like I 624 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: want to support an idealist who wants to make things better, 625 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: but not when that idealism blinds you so much that 626 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: you end up hurting people. Um. But when I came 627 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 1: across this passage while I was researching, it really hit 628 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: me in its pertinence to our world today. Uh. And 629 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: he wrote, quote the justified outcry of those who, through 630 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: no fault of their own, are deprived of opportunity and 631 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: a fair share of worldly goods, therefore diverts an increasing 632 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: number of students from the studies which their fathers pursued 633 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: to the equally important and no less urgent study of social, economic, 634 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: and governmental problems. I have no quarrel with this tendency. 635 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: The world in which we live is the only world 636 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: about which our senses can testify. Unless it has made 637 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: a better world, a fairer world, millions will continue to 638 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: go to their graves silent, saddened, and embittered. That is 639 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: the complicated Flexner report. Yeah, I think it's worth knowing that. 640 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: Like there's there's a question sometimes where it seems like 641 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: people are kind of asking was he racist? Or um, 642 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: was he operating from best intentions? And it can be 643 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: operating yet if he's operating from his best intentions, like 644 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: still racist though, Like it's impossible to grow up in 645 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: a position of privilege in a racist society that is 646 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: threaded all through with many layers of racist of racism 647 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: and like to not be racist, Like it is a 648 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: lifelong effort to undo all of those thinking patterns, no 649 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: matter how well intended you are. Yeah, I mean, it's 650 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: it's one of those things when you read his writing, 651 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 1: he so clearly believes that, like if we just shut 652 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: down all the bad black medical schools, these two good 653 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: ones are going to be so good that then we 654 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: can expand from there and everything will be great. And 655 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: it's like he's missing so much of the puzzle that 656 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 1: like again in an ideal world, sure, but like, um, yeah, 657 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: he's he's complicated. I have complicated feelings about him. Um, 658 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: do you have a listener mail? I do. It's much 659 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: less complicated. It's a very very lovely listener mail from 660 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: our listener, Crystal, who writes History of Science Topics is 661 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: my Jam, which I liked because it's fine too. She writes, 662 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: Dear Holly and Tracy, I'm writing to say I love 663 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: your podcast. I've always enjoyed learning about history, and you 664 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: make it easy to listen to. Over the past few months, 665 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 1: I've been catching up with you going through your catalog 666 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: of I'm a scientist working in a lab in Canada 667 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: doing research with insects, and I just love when you 668 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: do podcasts on science it's related topics. I particularly like 669 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: the mention of Thomas Say from the New Harmony episode, 670 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,359 Speaker 1: as he was an entomologist and taxonomist, and I would 671 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: like to know more about the lives of these people 672 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 1: from the past. Uh. In my work, I've been able 673 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: to help digitize historical insects specimen records. This sounds so cool, uh, 674 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: And I'm always amazed and I find collection labels that 675 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: say the specimen was collected during World War One or 676 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: World War Two. What were these scientists doing during these 677 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: difficult times and why were they continuing their research and 678 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: not involved in particular wartime efforts. I also thoroughly enjoyed 679 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: learning about Chen Chung Woo, whom I had never heard 680 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: about before. She was a pioneer in physics and has 681 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: certainly inspired me as a woman. Scientists. Please share more 682 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: of these kinds of stories. Lastly, I just finished listening 683 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: to your episode on the discovery of helium. Again. I 684 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,760 Speaker 1: just love hearing about topics like this. UM. I wanted 685 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: to read this in part because Uh it ties in 686 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: a little bit to uh Flexner's discussion of how in 687 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: that that seemingly useless knowledge becoming useful. He talks about 688 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: how sometimes science just step away from the realities of 689 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: current events to continue to do their work. But I 690 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: can't speak specifically to those specimen collectors that got those insects, 691 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: although again, that sounds super interesting. So thank you so much, Crystal. 692 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: I love that you work in in science and that 693 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: there's entomology happening under your hand. We appreciate it, and 694 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 1: we're grateful to be along with you on some of 695 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: that journey. If you would like to write to us, 696 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: you can do so at History Podcast at iHeart radio 697 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find us pretty much everywhere 698 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: on social media as Missed in History, and if you 699 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: would like to subscribe this super easy to do. You 700 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: can do that in the I heart Radio app, on 701 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever it is you listen. Stuff you 702 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. 703 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from i heart Radio, visit the i 704 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 705 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.