WEBVTT - QLS Classic: Michael Brauer 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.240 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:07.040 episode was produced by the team at Pandora. 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.600 Grammy winning mix engineer Michael Brower talks about the art 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.320 of engineering, his studio secret and what. 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.439 Is this like working with artists such. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:21.599 As Coldplay, Luther and Vandross, Aretha Franklin, Grace Jones, and Moore. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:26.400 This was episode fifty six from November one, twenty seventeen. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:43.920 S Bramo, Son Son Supremo, Roll Call Subramo, Son Son Supremo, 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:50.400 Roll Call Subramo, Son Son Subramo, Roll Call Subramo. 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:54.840 Son Son Subrao Roll Quest Love a single, Yeah, Quest 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.760 Loves Free, Yeah, Quest Loves Dancing. 0:00:58.200 --> 0:00:59.880 Yeah, Wes Love is going. 0:00:59.720 --> 0:00:59.880 To be. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:07.520 So Supreme. Roll call Supremo, something so Supreme. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:12.280 Roll my name is Spante Yeah, coming through when the clutch. Yeah, 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.479 I can give you a little Yeah, but number too much, 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:16.800 number two of us, number. 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:23.559 Two Supreme, something Supreme, Roll call Suprema, Something Suprema. 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:28.360 Roll my name is Sugar. Yeah, I'm never shower. Yeah, 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.560 that Purple Room, give it back Brown. 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:39.880 Supreme, Son Son Supreme, Roll Call Supreme Supreme. 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:44.520 Roll Hospital Ain't ready Yeah, ready to start? Yeah, we 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:47.720 wrote my role call Yeah, had a change of heart. 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:56.040 Supremo, something supreme, My roll call Suprema so supreme, roll. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:01:59.520 Yeah with Mike and his hands. 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.440 Then touch Joe Cole play oh nose God damn. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:12.839 Brema Suprema Suprema roll. 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:19.160 Brower, brow I don't know what else to say, but brower. 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:36.239 Suprema, Role Supremo, Suprema roll call, Suprema so supremo roll call. 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:43.600 Well like you actually hit the on the hedge, right, 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.000 I can just name them all. Luthor, Change, made an Ingredients, 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:54.000 Cheryl Lynn, Chrace Jones, Jones, Girls, Queen Guthrie, Angelo Beaufieldtha Franklin, 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.440 James Brown, Tevin Campbell, gladst Knight, Meet Look, Tony Bennett, 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:00.880 Paul McCartney, David Byrne, Billy Joel, uh Hall of Notes, 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.520 Kick the Coconuts, Glen Jone and now the show's over 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.440 last John Right now, what they all have in common 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:16.840 is probably a very distinct sound. Most notably Luther Vandros 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.760 had such a sheene and such a clean texter to 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:26.080 his music, which I feel defined eighties FM radio brought 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.560 to you none other than the master engineer with us 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.239 today on Quest Love Supreme welcome Michael Brower to the show. 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.359 Yes, thank you, thank you. 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.320 Now, my my personal favorite shows of any shows that 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:47.440 we do are with the President Company excluded looking at 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:53.880 Sugar Steve are the engineers because they, to me, shape 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.080 the sound of the artists that we love so much. 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:01.440 You know what I'm saying, and more than you know. 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.240 Often I don't even think the artists really know that. 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:09.880 I don't think the artists know much of the science 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.640 that goes into the product that they deliver, but the 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.119 engineer can explain it. So we thank you for doing 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:20.280 this with us. Yeah, honored you. You agreed to do 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:25.520 this so for our audience that's not too detake. Yeah, 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:30.000 technical nerds, what is the role of an engineer. 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.039 To get the vision of the artists down on tape 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.839 as closely as possible, to record it in a way 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.480 that when you put the faders up, you've got the 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.480 feel of that song nailed. Okay, So it's more than 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.560 just a documentation of the event, but trying to get 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.640 the emotion and the feel across. 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.920 Now, often are you part of because people don't know 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.240 that tracking a song is different than mixing a song. 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.760 So is it important for you to actually record the 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.880 song so that you can really determine the app control 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:09.800 of what comes in. 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:11.839 We can we remind a little bit, what's the difference 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:16.320 between what is tracking? Okay, well it is tracking. There 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.240 is a big difference between tracking and mixing. Tracking is 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.520 when you're recording all the instruments to multi tracks, to 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:27.080 many different tracks that you can control the volume over later. 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:32.880 And so how you record the drums and how you 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:36.080 record the vocal and the bass, all that is very 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.960 very important to make sure that the feel of that 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:44.000 song comes out properly. And I started at a studio 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.960 called Media Sound, which was an R and B studio primarily, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:53.160 and I just spent seven days a week in there, 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.760 just you know, starting as an intern and then working 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.760 my way into an assistant. But the point that I 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.640 watched that I that was made clearly is how great 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.680 the engineers were at this studio and how well they 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.560 they recorded the sounds so that the artists would come 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:15.520 in and just go, oh my god, this is exactly 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.160 the way it should sound, and you know, and it 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.040 would change from song to song. Media is where you 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:24.960 first interned, like that was yes, Media Sound was my 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.520 first gig. What year was this? This was seventy six, 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:36.520 and then I was an assistant by seventy seven, and 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.400 then an engineer by seventy eight. So did youeer, wait, 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.200 why did that whole process take me eight years? You know, 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.760 you still you give me some more coffee? Times are different, 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.280 I mean back then everybody moved up pretty quickly. On 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:57.280 it was just I've just noticed how quickly it slowed down. 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.320 I mean, it was a time as Media sound and 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:04.080 many of the studios you had an engineering staff comprised 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:08.040 of the staff engineers, and then the assistants that were 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:11.240 being taught by the engineers, and then the interns, and 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:16.000 eventually the engineers would move on and assistants would move 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:21.320 into that slot. And then around seventy nine or eighty, 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.040 when the bottom fell out of Disco and all the 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:30.200 labels were basically getting rid of their roster, studios couldn't 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.960 afford staff engineers anymore, and they only had on payroll 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:39.280 of the assistants. So moving up to become an engineer 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.240 slowed down dramatically by two or three years because the 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.080 engineers coming through were all transient, you know, they were 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.120 just coming in for a bit and then moving on, 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.800 and so studios just wanted basically professional assistants. 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.720 So are you saying that from the mid seventies to 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.840 the very early age eight that there was actually a boom, 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:08.240 an upward mobile movement, Because when I hear any veteran 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.400 of the music industry talk, they always speak of, you know, 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.440 the slow down period of a particular part of the 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:20.280 recording industry. You know, some people think that period was 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.800 like the early eighties, you know, the industry was over. 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:28.520 It was musically almost every period every year it is 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:30.440 like it was over that year, it was over. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:35.000 So well it you know, the studios were starving because 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:39.120 there were no more acts coming in. They'd all been dropped, right, So, 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.320 but so in order for studio to stay open, they 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.880 couldn't have staff engineers also on payroll, so they forced 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.880 pretty much most of the engineers to go independent. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.160 Ah So, so when people say like Thriller saved the 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.760 record business, like that is not much of an exaggeration 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.000 because from the period that you're saying, like those yeah, 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:01.440 early eighties, like it was kind of. 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:05.040 It was a time when when bands came in and 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.960 they had carte blanche with a budget. And I remember 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:13.959 this distinctly because of our food budgets. I mean what 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:17.800 we ate during launch and dinner was amazing. And then 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.040 one day none of those bands showed up anymore. They 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:25.880 were all off the roster. Uh. And then you know, 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.800 when it started to bands were starting to come in, 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.560 it'd say, okay, so what do we do for food budget? 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:34.720 Oh no, no, no, no, no, we don't have that anymore. 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.400 Do you think do you think that MTV sort of 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:42.520 helped with that as well? I mean, of course with Thriller, Yes, 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:44.400 it was the butt. 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.720 Yeah, I think it was super important. It's also important 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:51.480 that bands that were maybe mediocre but had great presence 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.760 via MTV just became huge hits. 0:09:56.000 --> 0:10:01.040 Okay, so who do you remember your Did you get 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.319 a job at the studio as an intern because you what? 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:06.319 Were you in love with music? Or was it just 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:08.599 like I got to get a job with me. I 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:12.719 was a drummer with the band. It was just a 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:16.240 cover band, and we were out in the Midwest, and 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:20.520 I I liked what I was doing. I wasn't sure 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:22.000 that I was going to be good enough to make 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.040 a living off of it, but I had gone to 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.959 Eastman School of Music right when I graduated. For it 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.199 was like a two to three week course and it 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:37.120 was there where I met well, there were there were 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.160 a lot of a lot of people, but one of 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:52.160 them was Phil Phil Phil No, no, no, oh my god, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:57.880 it'll come back to me. But anyway, way, what was 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.679 it an engineer? No, it was a great producer. He 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.920 just recently died. I can't believe. I just Phil Ramone. 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.920 Phil Ramone, Yeah, thank you very much. And you know, 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.199 until then, I was I was pretty scared of what 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.680 they were. They were very technical, and I didn't understand 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:19.400 anything they were saying. And I was thinking, man, you know, 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.520 I just I was a performer. I want to continue 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.040 doing that, and how is this going to go on 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.760 with with people just talking about eqs and reverbs and 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:30.800 wet and dry? And I was like, oh my god. 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:36.520 And so it was after a day of lessons and 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.959 we're all sitting around and Phil Ramone is talking at 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:43.559 a table and we're just sitting around and he's, you know, 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.280 he's just talking about how when he's mixing and his 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.600 hands are moving and and I'm just at the table. 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:53.360 I go, wow, this looks like he's performing. And I thought, man, 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.800 this could be amazing. And there was at that point 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:01.360 just watching him describe how he mixes, I thought this 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:03.439 would be perfect. This is what I want to do, 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.319 you know, I want to continue performing, and it just 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.680 to me it was like instead of playing drums now 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.400 I playing the console. When did the. 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.640 Days of like I'll see old studio photos of the 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:21.480 Beatles and even some James Brown studio session photos, and 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.520 like engineers were actually dressing like engineers with the white 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:31.080 lab Like when did when did that particular period come 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:31.600 to an end? 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.160 For engineers? Like that was mostly going on in England 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:41.199 and Abbey Road. I didn't see unless there was a 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:46.079 couple of studios where the jazz studios where that was 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:51.520 very evident. But I never saw any of that. I 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.360 don't think that was really going on in uh in 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:59.360 any of the American studios. So how how important is 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.240 math and equations to you? 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.240 Like do you go, I'm a guy that goes on 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.760 feeling like I'm you know, I'm just learning about different dB. 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:11.000 Levels and hurts. 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.079 Yeah, it hurts, and you know overdriving, you know, with 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.559 hip hop, it's just like more about feel as opposed 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:20.920 to you know, science. A guy like Bob Power would say, well, 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.959 you know too much base UH four level base will 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:26.560 cause your record to skip and da da da dad, 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:28.120 So you got to balance it and take it. 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:30.760 You know, he has come up with these equations because 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:31.040 I know. 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:35.439 That your your calling card or your signature is how 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.240 you use compression, which I used to think compression was 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.720 the enemy of music, but you made it work. 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:50.400 So like how important is is percent? Feel? Everything else 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.440 is a coincidence. I mean you can analyze it and go, oh, 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.199 he does this and he does that. Or when I 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.199 started with mixed with the Masters, where I needed to 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:03.319 teach and actually verbalize what I'd been doing, That's when 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.720 I had to actually kind of study what I'm doing. 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.200 But it was always by feel. If I was looking 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:13.199 for a delay, I would just turn it till it 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.839 went ah. You know, if I slap on a vocal, 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.080 I would just keep moving it too far, too little, 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:24.440 and just then that's not right in But you know, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:26.400 I mean I'm not making a joke. 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.720 I mean that's when he gets on the board, he 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.560 just you know, he'll boost up the level and then 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:34.240 sweep sweep the frequencias. 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:35.520 So that's how I learned. 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.360 That's interesting because throughout my when I was a I 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.120 guess out of college. I was interested in being an engineer, 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.640 and then I realized the science of it, and I figured, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.960 at some point, even though you are doing it through ear, 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:48.200 at some point it's like you have to know the 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:52.000 formula of mega hurts into this, and goodness. 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.160 I didn't have to do that, because then I would 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:54.720 have never. 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:58.240 That's actually what kept me from doing it, because I 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.360 I almost was a music engineering major in college. Then 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.840 I saw all the physical class required. 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:08.040 Oh well, you know, I'll tell you what. It's interesting 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.680 you say that because I was terribly intimidated by people 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:15.680 who talked like that, I mean really really bad, and 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:18.400 I would have to leave the room when they'd start 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.040 talking like, oh my god, I'll never be like that. 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.760 They're so smart, you know. And there and I'll give 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:25.880 you the best example where I learned my lesson and 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:30.520 this they changed me forever. It was that Media Sound 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:34.400 and we have just started. It was right after outside 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.920 engineers are now being allowed into studios. Because at Media Sound, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.400 you there were no outside engineers. You came to Media 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.880 Sound to work with their engineers. But with the desk, 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:51.080 death of disco and studios opening up, there was this 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.720 engineer and so he's describing, you know, we're just in 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:56.840 the lounge or just hanging out, and he starts saying, yeah, 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.280 I've got this acoustic guitar sound, and I've got this 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.320 MS positioning where I've got it for two inches one 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.200 mic over the other. And then I bring it up 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:08.680 and I bid good bed, bid bed bed, you know, 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.200 and it's like beer and baseball to me, you know, 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.200 and I'm like, oh my god, I'm just and I 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.240 started getting that feeling in my stomach where I'm just like, 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.840 oh man, I'm never I feel when I wake up. 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:27.520 And I was just like, man, this, I just wish 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.320 it Sky would shut up because I just, you know, 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.000 it makes me feel awful. I don't know what he's 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.760 talking about, and I'll never do that. So I go, hey, 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.680 can I hear what you're doing. He goes, yeah, yeah, 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.680 come on in. It was in studio way. It's beautiful room, 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.400 I know it, you know, every inch of that room. 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:50.600 And he plays it sounds like and it was crap, 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:57.920 and I was just like, wow, that is not good 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.880 at all. And I say, okay, thanks man. No I 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.680 didn't say no. I was just like, I was likeels sketch. 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:12.280 I said, did you say that. You know, I'm just thinking, 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.120 I said, man, what an idiot. I am all being 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.280 intimidated and everything and walking in there thinking this guy 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.399 is God, you know, and it sounds like crap. And 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.840 so I left there and I thought, never again will 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.560 that happen, because it's always about feel, and I don't 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.680 anybody start talks big. Yeah. If I go in and 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:35.720 I listened to it and it sounds good, then I'm 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.840 gonna be curious to see how he did, and I'll 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.240 be interested in learning. But all the talk talk talk, 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.840 and all the numbers you need to know, and and 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.920 you know, formulas that means anything, and in R and 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:52.800 B it never meant anything. I mean, you know I learned. 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.080 You know, it was because of being around Luther, and 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.840 you know that that whole crowd and that whole field 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.520 that I started mixing in the up on the upbeat, 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.640 like I never really moved much. I used to move down, 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:09.720 and I'd be the only guy in the in the 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:15.359 room on the feeling, you know, down, and every and 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.920 I look around everybody else heads are bopping on the 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:22.520 up you know. I was like, well, you know, I 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.879 would try that and I'd fall out of him I'm like, 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:26.160 I really. 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.200 Am the only white guy in this room. You know, 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:33.680 can you can you trust your ears in a studio? 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.800 For me, the final word is when it's when it's 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.240 outside the studio. And I know, like most studio speakers 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:47.040 are intentionally built to be more dry than what your home. 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:52.240 Experience is, Like how how often can you just know okay, 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:57.280 this is this is it? I really trusted my speakers. 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.200 I would take it home, but it was never My 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.520 speakers at home were never accurate. They were kind of whacked, 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.680 and so I stopped doing that and I'd listen to headphones. 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.240 But then I was intimidated by listening to my mixesm 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.959 in my headphones because I was afraid they'd sound awful 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.520 and I'd hear stuff. So I was I never wanted 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.440 to put headphones on a lot of insecurities to get 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:28.159 where I am. But you know, I actually what I 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.720 learned to trust. I was mixing some records in Japan 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:38.840 and they had this boombox and they'd play back my 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.920 mix through the boombox. And when they first started doing that, 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.320 I was like, wow, man, this boombox sucks not good 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.920 at all. And then you go, oh, you know, maybe 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.080 we fixed this, We fixed that. Like yeah, okay, but 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.920 I mean, you know, listening to this, it's awful. And 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.359 then it got sounding really really good. And then I 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.640 listened back to on my pro acts. I was like, whoa, wow, 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:04.920 this sounds great. I thought, ah, yeah, I've never I 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.639 just learned something. And you've you've probably seen it. In 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:12.680 my room. It's like this old Sony box. Every song 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.879 I've ever mixed, I mixed through there, and I trust 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.080 that radio. So when I know it sounds good there, 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:20.720 it's going to sound good on my proacts, on my 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.840 ATC's or you know, all the other speakers, and it's 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:26.680 going to sound good outside. And I also learned a 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:31.560 lot from mastering engineer. I mean, the first ten years 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.800 or so, I mastered everything with Greg Calby at Sterling. 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.040 So you would you would you wouldn't trust the process 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:41.520 of them. You would actually go and make sure that 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.240 they didn't flatten you out or anything. 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.960 Well, I was learning. I mean, he mastered my very 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.320 first record, and so I'd go in there because back 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:58.280 then it was called Mickey and Becky was a Christian act. 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:04.399 Oh wow, okay, recorded and recorded and mixed, and uh, 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.400 they were really great. People. I mean, so many stories 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:11.960 with that record, but you know it was the first 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.240 record and the cover had a banner, big banner across 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.000 the two of them, you know, Mickey, Oh my god, yeah, 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:20.440 what first record? 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.000 Who were you an apprentice under when you finally got 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.600 to assistant? Who's your Who was your. 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:36.480 My mentors were Harvey Goldberg, okay, and Michael Deluge and 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:41.880 Fred Christie and Clear Mountain, uh, Tom, Tony bon Jovi. 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:43.639 I mean there were a lot of great guys, but 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.879 the two that really took me under the wings were 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:48.520 Michael Deluge and Harvey Goldberg. 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:51.880 In your assistant days, what were your clients like? Where 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.080 they local acts, any national. 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:59.600 Or about everything? I mean Fat Back Band, Oh talk 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:04.160 about Wait a minute, Tony BONJOI was doing Fat Back 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:07.840 and and I mean just all you know, heavy R 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:13.560 and B was name. Yeah, well good, good question. Remember 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:14.160 two of them? 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:21.800 Yeah, Fat Back, I'm like Spanish Hustle, Yeah, Kington. 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:24.639 None of them come to mind now, it was so 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.679 long ago. Let me see we did the Hustle. 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:33.520 Yeah, yeah, he was there, the Fat Back Man as well. 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:34.840 Oh they had one too, yeah oh. 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:37.320 Yeah, now it was but it was m Van McCoy 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:45.400 he was a regular. He was a great guy. Man. 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:48.160 I don't know, Okay, how old were you at this point? 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:51.160 On I started at twenty five, so at this point 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:55.400 I'm twenty six, twenty seven. I started pretty late. Were 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:57.440 you scared? I was older than most of the engineers. 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:02.000 I was even than Fire Mountain? Wow? Yeah, and Harvey 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:02.760 and all those guys. 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:06.320 Were you afraid when you finally took the reins on 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:09.480 your own or like, how do you make that that leap? 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:13.399 Most engineers I talked to either their lead guy like 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:17.400 decides to take a vacation or is sick that day, 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:18.480 and then next thing you. 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:23.000 Know, well, they were great there because you start off 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:28.920 by doing overdubs. Okay, so you would record a guitar overdub, 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:33.520 and then you move on to maybe backing vocals, and 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:37.600 then you'd eventually move towards doing all the percussion and 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:42.280 then strings and then horns all separately, and eventually, you know, 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:44.959 the day comes and I remember the day I got 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:49.080 the call. So it's gonna be you know, it's gonna 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:51.960 be an AD date. It's gonna be pretty big session. 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:55.560 It's just gonna you know, drums, bass, and you know 0:23:55.640 --> 0:24:01.880 the rhythm section and then maybe and maybe backing vocals 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:03.760 and the singing and stuff like, Okay, that's cool, I 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.040 can handle all that. And then about ten minutes later 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:11.080 the orchestra show, she calls back, well, she calls this 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:14.480 is for the next day, and Vivian Deluge calls me 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:19.119 and she goes, so listen, you know they're also going 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:24.200 to have strings and horns at the same time. It's 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:26.000 all live. It was studie way. It was a huge, 0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:28.680 huge room, and she says, you know, I don't I 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:31.879 don't think you're quite ready for that. I was like, no, no, 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:33.560 I'm ready. I'm ready. I can do it. I can 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:35.480 do it. She goes, you sure, Yeah, yeah, I'm really sure. 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:38.600 I go okay. Click. I went over to the bathroom 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:46.119 like I just ready to pass out, like, oh, I 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:47.480 can do this. I can do this. And then she 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:50.600 calls back again. She goes, look, I don't know, Michael. 0:24:50.760 --> 0:24:56.120 Now they've added also a whole whole percussion section, vibraphone, rimba, 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:01.119 you know. And I was just like, yeah, no problem, 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:05.719 it's no problem. Click. So you're saying I'm at typical 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:10.120 disco sessions. This was an AD date, Okay, an AD 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.280 date and so it was for a commercial or you know, 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:16.320 for for some kind of who knows anymore. It was 0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:19.399 a long time ago, but they had, you know, a 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:23.000 lot of musicians. I mean because the studio during the 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:27.280 day we were doing commercials and then come six o'clock 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:30.320 we were doing records because you couldn't get any of 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:32.639 the musicians during the day because they were getting doubled 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:36.160