Speaker 1: I think positivity has a time, a place, a purpose.
Speaker 1: I just think we've become so obsessed with it to
Speaker 1: a degree that it's starting to hurt us more than
Speaker 1: help us. Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today,
Speaker 1: we welcome Whitney Goodman to the show. Whitney is the
Speaker 1: radically honest psychotherapist behind the hugely popular Instagram account Sit
Speaker 1: with wit. She's the owner of the Collaborative Counseling Center,
Speaker 1: a private therapy practice in Miami. Whitney has her own
Speaker 1: calumn in Psychology Today and has been featured in The
Speaker 1: New York Times, Teen, Vogue, New York Magazine, In Style,
Speaker 1: Good Morning America, and other publications. Her most recent book
Speaker 1: is called Toxic Positivity, Keeping It Real in a world
Speaker 1: obsessed with being happy. In this episode, I talked to
Speaker 1: Whitney Goodman about toxic positivity. A happy outlook in life
Speaker 1: is a strength, but when taken too far, it can
Speaker 1: backfire and work against us. Positivity stops becoming helpful and
Speaker 1: we deny the realities of hardship and try. Whitney believes
Speaker 1: positivity is not the panacea to our proms, and then
Speaker 1: it needs to be applied at the right time and
Speaker 1: with the right purpose. She shares with us ways on
Speaker 1: how to be supportive without being dismissive of our own
Speaker 1: wellbeing and the well being of others. We also touch
Speaker 1: on the topics of authenticity, gratitude, hope, relationships, and work.
Speaker 1: It was really fun chatting with Whitney and I really
Speaker 1: appreciated her authentic style and we laughed a lot in
Speaker 1: this episode as well. So, without further ado, I now
Speaker 1: bring you Whitney Goodman. I'm really excited to chat with
Speaker 1: you today about toxic positivity as well. So I guess
Speaker 1: no pressure to smile. Come as you are, Come as
Speaker 1: you are. Yeah, I just want to jump. I just
Speaker 1: want to dive right in. You know, you're a therapist
Speaker 1: and you're also is an Instagram superstar. Thank you? How
Speaker 1: did that come about? How that did both come about?
Speaker 1: Why did you go into therapy and then why did
Speaker 1: you join Instagram? I always want to work with people.
Speaker 1: I was definitely that friend that you know, was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I thought I had all the answers to everything. So
Speaker 1: I ended up becoming a therapist and quickly learning that
Speaker 1: that was not what therapists do tell people what to do.
Speaker 1: But it's the only job I've ever had, and I
Speaker 1: love it. So I got on Instagram really just to
Speaker 1: market my private practice. I did not expect it to
Speaker 1: become this big part of my life, and a lot
Speaker 1: of people told me I was crazy for trying to
Speaker 1: market my practice on there, and now it seems to
Speaker 1: be like where every therapist is these days. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like the battle of the therapist who has more likes
Speaker 1: on Instagram. It's bizarre, it really is. I still can't
Speaker 1: get my blue check no matter what I do, Like, why,
Speaker 1: what's up with that? I got my blue check through
Speaker 1: like some campaign I did with next Door. They were like, oh,
Speaker 1: we can get it for you right now. I'm like, what,
Speaker 1: you have to know a guy? I guess. Yeah. That's
Speaker 1: the thing is, I don't know. I don't know what
Speaker 1: I don't know, and I don't know who the guy is.
Speaker 1: Other people have asked me him, like if I knew,
Speaker 1: I would tell you, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That'd be
Speaker 1: like knowing the secret to me. Okay, So I loved
Speaker 1: your new book on toxic positivity. As you state, positivity
Speaker 1: isn't toxic, it becomes toxic. I think that's a good
Speaker 1: starting point here because You're not saying that every attempt
Speaker 1: to be positive is something that should be considered toxic, right, absolutely,
Speaker 1: So it really depends on the timing, the audience, and
Speaker 1: the topic, right. What might be positive or fine in
Speaker 1: certain situations can become toxic when we use it incorrectly, Okay,
Speaker 1: And you distinguish between helpful positivity and toxic positivity, So
Speaker 1: maybe that would be that'd be useful to actually like
Speaker 1: tell me what is what falls in one category and
Speaker 1: what falls the other guy category? Give me some examples
Speaker 1: if possible. Sure. So I think with helpful positivity, we're
Speaker 1: making space for the good, the bad, and the neutral. Right,
Speaker 1: So we're saying things like today really sucked and I
Speaker 1: think tomorrow is going to be better, or I love
Speaker 1: this meal that I'm going to have at the end
Speaker 1: of the day. Toxic positivity is more like everything has
Speaker 1: to be good, and if we express any negativity or complaints,
Speaker 1: we're attracting more negativity or we're somehow a negative or
Speaker 1: a bad person, and we have to deny that any
Speaker 1: of that even exists. Yeah, the denying or the pretending.
Speaker 1: You know a lot of people feel like are pretending
Speaker 1: these days to be happy all the time, there's almost
Speaker 1: like a social pressure even when people ask how are
Speaker 1: you right? Like if I tell them the truth, they
Speaker 1: don't really want to hear that. I one, I feel
Speaker 1: like social media plays such a big role in that
Speaker 1: that we all sort of are like avatars of our
Speaker 1: own self these days, and there's this feeling of like
Speaker 1: how do I want to perform my existence right? And
Speaker 1: how do I want people to see me? And people
Speaker 1: feel like they're a burden or they're going to get
Speaker 1: abandoned if they don't have all these positive feelings. Well,
Speaker 1: you've showed shown that not to be the case, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, you keep it real on your social media
Speaker 1: and then people really resonate with it. I guess maybe
Speaker 1: you're you're saying things that people want to want to
Speaker 1: be saying. Yeah, I try to. I think I'm definitely
Speaker 1: coming from this place of like, I'm a therapist, so
Speaker 1: it's normal for me to talk about these things to
Speaker 1: some extent that people aren't as judgmental. But I hope
Speaker 1: to like model that, Yeah, we don't have to talk
Speaker 1: about everything on social media, but we can show something Yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah it just personally in your own life. Did it
Speaker 1: bother you for many years that there was kind of
Speaker 1: this pressure be positive, like is there something in your personality?
Speaker 1: What is the individual differences variable here? As well those
Speaker 1: who because there's going to be some who listening to
Speaker 1: this podcast too, they are toxic positivity carnate, but they're
Speaker 1: not going to like this conversation. They're gonna be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm oppressed, right, I'm being oppressed, you know, saying for sure?
Speaker 1: For sure? I think for me, I always noticed that
Speaker 1: there was like this performance aspect, like I was supposed
Speaker 1: to just act like everything was fine even when it wasn't.
Speaker 1: Or when I started working as a therapist, like sort
Speaker 1: of noticing the things people talk about behind closed doors
Speaker 1: and then what people are showing on social media. I
Speaker 1: even saw that with my own friends that I'm like,
Speaker 1: that's so aggravating that we feel this pressure to show
Speaker 1: up in a way that we're not and it's something
Speaker 1: that I don't like to do. It bothers me to
Speaker 1: not be at least somewhat authentic. Yeah, yeah, So when
Speaker 1: did you did you coin the term talic positivity? I
Speaker 1: am very cautious about saying that I've never seen it
Speaker 1: used anywhere before. I said it on that Instagram post,
Speaker 1: but I don't know, it could be floating out for
Speaker 1: some more. Yeah, because I know like also like yeah,
Speaker 1: like Susan David uses that term a lot as well. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well she wrote the book Emotional Agility prior to that,
Speaker 1: which I know toxic positivity wasn't used there. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: the concepts exactly. Yeah. Yeah, So okay, to tell me
Speaker 1: about this Instagram post. Okay, so tell me what what
Speaker 1: year was that? Read it to me? Yeah? So can
Speaker 1: you read it to me like what it said? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So in twenty eighteen, I put up this post that
Speaker 1: was toxic positivity in one column and I listed a
Speaker 1: lot of phrases like everything happens for a reason, never
Speaker 1: give up, things like that, And then in the right
Speaker 1: hand column I put like I think validation and hope
Speaker 1: and gave people a list of different things that they
Speaker 1: could say, like I'm here for you if want to
Speaker 1: talk about it, that we're a little more validating and
Speaker 1: less just positivity. Do you ever re up that post
Speaker 1: every now and then? Yeah? For sure, recycle that for sure?
Speaker 1: For sure. When I made it, it was like the
Speaker 1: worst graphic I with my very early days on Instagram.
Speaker 1: So I've updated it since, and I put it out
Speaker 1: when my book was published. Again, good good, I love that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you say, my clients who live the most fulfilling lives
Speaker 1: are those who can experience challenging emotions. So you find
Speaker 1: that's an important route to growth, even in the clinical setting, absolutely,
Speaker 1: especially especially in the clinical seting. Yeah, I find that
Speaker 1: my clients that and I've worked with a lot of
Speaker 1: people like this that really just want to feel good
Speaker 1: all the time or only want to feel positive, end
Speaker 1: up being the ones that struggle the most because when
Speaker 1: they are confronted with challenges, they don't really know what
Speaker 1: to do. They become really bogged down by that experience.
Speaker 1: You know, we make a lot of really interesting points
Speaker 1: in this book about positivity. You say, positive making can
Speaker 1: give us the illusion of hope and control. In fact,
Speaker 1: let me call you, can I call you? You say,
Speaker 1: the world can be cruel and random. Unfortunately, we can
Speaker 1: put out tons of positive energy and still struggle strive
Speaker 1: for a life that honors your values and as meaning
Speaker 1: do the best. You kind of know that not everything
Speaker 1: bad that comes your way is because you attracted it, right,
Speaker 1: So this is kind of a reay to the law
Speaker 1: of attraction kind of idea that goes around, right, how
Speaker 1: would you challenge that idea? The law of attraction, the
Speaker 1: way that I've come to understand it is essentially that
Speaker 1: whatever you put out there will come back to you.
Speaker 1: And so what I've found is that that type of
Speaker 1: thinking can become so victim blaming for some people, and
Speaker 1: it creates this over emphasis on the just world bias
Speaker 1: that if you do good things, but things will happen
Speaker 1: to you. But we know that bad things happen to
Speaker 1: good people every day, and so I think positive thinking,
Speaker 1: the law of attraction, it sort of presents this on
Speaker 1: a silver platter of if you just follow this, good
Speaker 1: things will always come back to you, and we know
Speaker 1: that to not be true. It's it's false hope to
Speaker 1: a certain extent. Yeah, So it, like you say, can
Speaker 1: give us the illusion of hope and control. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And when it's coincidentally working, we can it's working, it's true.
Speaker 1: But then when it's not true, when it doesn't work,
Speaker 1: it's like, uh, oh, like, how do we explain that exactly? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you say, it's not like you're saying positivity never works.
Speaker 1: You're saying it just doesn't always work. Right that I
Speaker 1: think there's been an over reliance on it. For sure,
Speaker 1: I get it. I get it. So do positive people
Speaker 1: always succeed? I want to let's just break down all
Speaker 1: these myths. Let's go down the line. Yeah, do positive
Speaker 1: people who succeed? The research on that really says that no,
Speaker 1: And that's not even one of I think we're sold
Speaker 1: this idea that mindset is the most important part of
Speaker 1: succeeding in the workplace. And what I found and the
Speaker 1: research that I did, was really that people succeed when
Speaker 1: they're able to be challenged, when they're able to find
Speaker 1: problems and solve them. Creativity is heightened when there's quote
Speaker 1: unquote negativity in the workplace, and so we really need
Speaker 1: this you know, healthy dose of like getting knocked down
Speaker 1: and problem solving to be successful. I've been watching all
Speaker 1: these shows lately about like we work in Pharahos, you know,
Speaker 1: these stories where the leaders are so overly positive that
Speaker 1: it's like delusional, right, And I think that's a perfect
Speaker 1: look into like when positivity goes unchecked and no one
Speaker 1: is allowed to say, like, hey, we have a problem
Speaker 1: here that we need to fix without getting accused of
Speaker 1: like dissent when they do that. Yeah, well, how can
Speaker 1: you avoid toxic positivity in the workplace? Like, let's say
Speaker 1: you do have a boss who's like manically egomania, manical,
Speaker 1: ego maniacal, manically egomaniacal. Do you like that? Do you
Speaker 1: like that for me? Yeah? I think that's what you're describing, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: is well how do you how in the world do
Speaker 1: you deal with that? I think that's one of the
Speaker 1: toughest situations to be in in the workplace, because if
Speaker 1: you have a leader that is not listening to you,
Speaker 1: you can really only control what's within your realm of control, right,
Speaker 1: So how can you present and talk about the things
Speaker 1: that you're concerned about to the people that have power,
Speaker 1: present them in a way that is meaningful and also
Speaker 1: at some point maybe even saying like, I don't know
Speaker 1: if I can work in these types of conditions. If
Speaker 1: it gets to a point where there's too much risk
Speaker 1: involved in not being heard, yeah, I mean that's sometimes
Speaker 1: easier than done. Absolutely, you can get fired for speaking
Speaker 1: up at all. But yeah, okay, So what if you
Speaker 1: are an I call egomaniac and you want to change
Speaker 1: Let's say, yeah, you want to dial that down a
Speaker 1: little bit. You want to be more negative, You want
Speaker 1: to be more negative? What can you do? I really
Speaker 1: think it's about being more realistic and open to feedback.
Speaker 1: So how can you create an environment where people are
Speaker 1: allowed to voice issues that they have and setting aside
Speaker 1: time to actually have space for that, and knowing that
Speaker 1: somebody having a problem with what's going on or a
Speaker 1: concern isn't a direct attack on you. It's them trying
Speaker 1: to help you make something better, trying to invest in
Speaker 1: what's going on. Yeah, I thought that was an interesting
Speaker 1: chess move you made there When I said negative, you've
Speaker 1: reframed it is realistic and actually makes me want to
Speaker 1: bring up this question because I've criticized positive psychology's use
Speaker 1: of the distinction between positive and negative emotions and have argued, well,
Speaker 1: that's that's putting a label on these class of emotions.
Speaker 1: You know, you have uncomfortable emotions, you have comfortable emotions,
Speaker 1: you've exhiling. It's more about what I want to kind
Speaker 1: of reframe it to how we feel about the emotions
Speaker 1: supposed to objectively labeling. Is that similar to how you
Speaker 1: think about it as well? Like what do you think
Speaker 1: of when I say negative? Emotions. I completely agree with
Speaker 1: you that I think classifying it in that way doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense. I think uncomfortable emotions or emotions that cause
Speaker 1: us discomfort it makes more sense just because I know
Speaker 1: as a clinician, I've seen people be uncomfortable with happiness.
Speaker 1: I've seen people be uncomfortable with peace or calm. That
Speaker 1: some emotions that we would label maybe quote unquote negative
Speaker 1: are actually easier for certain people depending on what they've
Speaker 1: experienced in life. That's a good point. Also, I'm so
Speaker 1: used to my anxiety in life that like I do
Speaker 1: in an nessorriyah a while ago to give it a
Speaker 1: try and was like calm for the first time in
Speaker 1: my life, and that made me very uncomfortable. I didn't
Speaker 1: like that feeling of being calm right right, you know, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And that would be something that people might be like, oh,
Speaker 1: but that's a positive feeling, you know, that would and
Speaker 1: that makes you feel threw the ssrise down the dream now.
Speaker 1: I was like, I want to go back to feeling alive, right,
Speaker 1: I want to feel alive. I want to feel something.
Speaker 1: I want that energy coursing for your veins again. Yes,
Speaker 1: I like my nervous energy in the right doses. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you say you have a math equation here, a very
Speaker 1: complex math equation well being greater than positive thinking. Can
Speaker 1: you explain that math equation for those who are not
Speaker 1: so math in cliss Yes. I think if we have
Speaker 1: a more comprehensive view of well being, like where you live,
Speaker 1: the people that are around you, what you're eating, you know,
Speaker 1: where you work, all of these pieces that go into
Speaker 1: who you are, it's a much better way at looking
Speaker 1: at how we're functioning than just focusing on our thoughts.
Speaker 1: I think there's this big pressure of like, if you
Speaker 1: have positive thoughts, you'll have a positive life, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't capture the whole picture, and it leaves people feeling
Speaker 1: very much like they're responsible for everything in their life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so what do you include under the umbrella of well being?
Speaker 1: What are some canuis some things? Yeah? I would include
Speaker 1: like again, where you live, who you're in relationships with,
Speaker 1: where you work, what you're putting into your body? Gotcha,
Speaker 1: you know, So it's your economic status, all of these
Speaker 1: types of things, Okay, good, good, wonderful. And then when
Speaker 1: positivity doesn't help, you have some very interesting categories here.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about illness. And disability. I really want to
Speaker 1: double click on that someone who's a big advocate of neurodiversity,
Speaker 1: advocate of neudiversity and all the different kind of ways
Speaker 1: that our minds and bodies can make a huge positive
Speaker 1: impact on the world. So how can too much positivity
Speaker 1: in that do mean bare? Because I see it all
Speaker 1: the time, but I'd love for you to explain it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all the time. This is like the biggest area that
Speaker 1: I've seen it in my career. And what we find
Speaker 1: is that people are often told that they have to
Speaker 1: have a positive mindset when they are sick with anything.
Speaker 1: I think people who are living with disabilities, we want
Speaker 1: them to be inspirational and strong, and you know, can't
Speaker 1: people go through cancer warriors and they're fighting or they
Speaker 1: lost the battle, and there's this big emphasis on like,
Speaker 1: if you're going through this really hard thing, you better
Speaker 1: do it with a smile and be trying really hard
Speaker 1: or I kind of don't want to hear about it.
Speaker 1: And we see that reflected I think throughout history in
Speaker 1: the media, et cetera. Yeah, it sucks, it does you know,
Speaker 1: because sometimes things just suck exactly, That's just it. Sometimes
Speaker 1: things just suck, And like I want to complain. I
Speaker 1: want to be around someone who will complain with me
Speaker 1: right and not try to reframe it. That actually frustrates
Speaker 1: me sometimes, Like there's you know, some people that I
Speaker 1: talked to and it's like I'm like, I'm complained by something,
Speaker 1: and there they're like, well, don't worry, you know, like
Speaker 1: it's probably for the best, you know. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: I want you to call that person a mother exactly.
Speaker 1: That's all I want. That's all I wanted is you'd
Speaker 1: agree with me that that person's a mother. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this if I get an that's
Speaker 1: how to be bleeped out when I just said, but
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying, Yeah,
Speaker 1: romantic relationship struggles. How on that to mean? You know,
Speaker 1: when you have couples and they're like, we're fine, our
Speaker 1: relationship is fine. Yeah, nobody ain't. Nobody ain't so true?
Speaker 1: And I think also just putting this pressure on people
Speaker 1: like when they're single, like oh, you're going to find
Speaker 1: the one, don't worry. You know, someone will love you.
Speaker 1: It's like people aren't allowed to be upset about anything.
Speaker 1: It always has to be turned into a positive Even
Speaker 1: when people get divorced, we're trying to put a positive
Speaker 1: spin on that immediately, and maybe that person's going to
Speaker 1: get there. I find in the moment, just like you said,
Speaker 1: they just want to be like this sucks, like it's shitty,
Speaker 1: just be with me in this moment. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay,
Speaker 1: what about in the demeanor physical appearance, you know, like, no,
Speaker 1: you're beautiful, don't worry, you haven't worked out in four years.
Speaker 1: I find that there's this pressure on, or I should say,
Speaker 1: this emphasis on talking about how great people look, especially
Speaker 1: when they're going through something hard. So when we go
Speaker 1: back to illness, like saying, but you don't even look sick,
Speaker 1: you look beautiful, and it's like, my gosh, it's kind
Speaker 1: of a compliment, but it's also very dismissive of what
Speaker 1: I'm going through. Or telling someone like you look great,
Speaker 1: you don't even look like you've gained weight or you
Speaker 1: lost weight. It's like we just need we can compliment
Speaker 1: people on such more interesting things about them. Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: certainly not saying to be like Dan, you look you're saying, no,
Speaker 1: I don't know, you're saying just emphasize without lying without
Speaker 1: life to them. Yes, oversens on, I am not telling people,
Speaker 1: I'm being clear. I'm being clear. No one misinterprets I
Speaker 1: got you, I got you with me. And then also
Speaker 1: after I'm all, you've noticed I'm a little cheeky. I
Speaker 1: like going because you know, people in our field are
Speaker 1: so serious. You notice that psychologists and can be so serious.
Speaker 1: You're like, but the clients just want to laugh. Like
Speaker 1: the clients, all the client really wants is joy, not
Speaker 1: to be like over over analyzed. They degree even feel
Speaker 1: worse about yourself. Yeah, okay, so uh after a traumatic event,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that. How can that positivity kind of
Speaker 1: go toxic there? I think this is another place where
Speaker 1: we put so much pressure on people to like find
Speaker 1: meaning and be grateful and be positive. And we know that, yes,
Speaker 1: there is a lot of value in that, but I
Speaker 1: think this is all about the timing. When someone's gone
Speaker 1: or something very difficult, it's not helpful to say to them, well,
Speaker 1: everything happens for a reason. Just be grateful that this
Speaker 1: didn't happen, or at least it's not that that really
Speaker 1: in that moment, I think what the person is hearing
Speaker 1: is like, wow, so you think it's good that I
Speaker 1: went through this, or what could possibly be the reason
Speaker 1: you know that my child died or that my spouse
Speaker 1: got cancer, Like, it's hard to conceptualize that in that moment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I completely agreed with that. A really big domain in
Speaker 1: which you see this is in the demean of shame.
Speaker 1: You see a lot of shame disguised as positivity, as
Speaker 1: you put it in your book. Can you kind of
Speaker 1: talk about us examples of how that could play out.
Speaker 1: The biggest way that I see this playing out is
Speaker 1: a lot of times when people are using positivity with themselves,
Speaker 1: it just induces shame. So saying I shouldn't be feeling
Speaker 1: this way, I need to be positive, I should be grateful,
Speaker 1: I have so much I can't complain about this when
Speaker 1: they're in a state of distress to me, just creates
Speaker 1: this gap of like, here's how I'm feeling, here's how
Speaker 1: I think I should be feeling, and I can't get there,
Speaker 1: So now I'm going to feel shameful about my emotional
Speaker 1: experience and beat myself up for it, which we know
Speaker 1: does not help, and it just ends up isolating people
Speaker 1: even more. Yeah. Yeah, you say point blank and say
Speaker 1: stop shaming yourself. This is actually if I had to pick,
Speaker 1: like the favorite favorite quote in your whole book, favorite sentence,
Speaker 1: it might be this one. Feeling depressed or anxious is hard.
Speaker 1: Pretending that you're not as much harder. I mean that
Speaker 1: is quite profound, you know, because we make our job
Speaker 1: twice as hard by acting as though we're not. And
Speaker 1: also we lose potential opportunities for connection with others who
Speaker 1: are probably feeling summarily and you'll never know if you
Speaker 1: don't tell them how you're feeling, right. I think that's
Speaker 1: the biggest threat of toxic positivity is that when we
Speaker 1: use it against ourselves or other people, it's this feeling
Speaker 1: of like I'm the only one that's going through this,
Speaker 1: no one understands me, and if I talk about this,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get shut down. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: miss out on any form of connection in this experience. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So how can you make affirmations work for you? Because
Speaker 1: do you think all affirmations are bad? Can they be
Speaker 1: used in a good way? You know, you remember the
Speaker 1: Stuart Smiley get on Staren Live. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's you're awesome, you're great? God? Do people like me. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I do not think all affirmations are bad in any way.
Speaker 1: But what I was really surprised by, you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of the very limited research on affirmations is that
Speaker 1: they typically don't help for the people that need them,
Speaker 1: who have depression or low self esteem, because they don't
Speaker 1: feel true. And so I think affirmations can work when
Speaker 1: they're backed up by action and they seem realistic. So
Speaker 1: more like I'm trying to love myself, I'm working on
Speaker 1: taking care of myself whatever it is, instead of saying
Speaker 1: I'm beautiful, I love myself, I'm perfect, good good, So
Speaker 1: that's something can be solids from these things. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: And then a big topic in the field of posit
Speaker 1: psychology is gratitude, the G word, the G word, So
Speaker 1: why can't you force gratitude? Like you mean you really can't?
Speaker 1: I mean you can't. These psychology experiments are literally forcing
Speaker 1: the subjects and then they do pre and post test
Speaker 1: analysis and they find such as significant differences in those
Speaker 1: they force versus those they didn't. So are you saying
Speaker 1: that you challenge the statistics? I think that these studies
Speaker 1: are super limited in my opinion, and only done on
Speaker 1: certain types of people. And so what I was finding
Speaker 1: in a lot of the research on gratitude is that
Speaker 1: it can't really be generalized through the entire population and
Speaker 1: give mean like white people. Yeah, it's like white women.
Speaker 1: And there were like forty of them women in the study,
Speaker 1: white middle aged women exactly. And so when I'm looking
Speaker 1: at this, I'm like, Okay, well, there's a reason why
Speaker 1: some people are not feel like these same effects. I've
Speaker 1: also found anecdotally in my own practice that people hate
Speaker 1: to be told to use these interventions like make a gratitude.
Speaker 1: Let's say I think a client's going to punch me
Speaker 1: in the face, tell them that because they've heard it
Speaker 1: from so many therapists. Yeah, oh man, I hear you.
Speaker 1: I hear you. And I've written articles about the importance
Speaker 1: for existential gratitude, which is just just be grateful that
Speaker 1: you're freaking alive and that you can breathe, like sometimes
Speaker 1: in your worst days, sometimes your worst days, you know,
Speaker 1: there's just like a basic existential form of gratitude that
Speaker 1: can get you through the day. But I hear you,
Speaker 1: I totally hear you. So how can you make gratitude
Speaker 1: work for you? Then again, can we salvage just like
Speaker 1: we did be affirmations? Can we salvage gratitude? Yeah, salvage it.
Speaker 1: Let's save gratitude. So I think when people allow gratitude
Speaker 1: to come up naturally and organically throughout their day and
Speaker 1: a lot more of that existential gratitude that you're speaking
Speaker 1: about versus like specific things or material items, it can
Speaker 1: be much more effective. So what I challenge people to
Speaker 1: do is, like, throughout your day, can you just organically
Speaker 1: recognize things of like, oh it's really nice outside today,
Speaker 1: or I really liked the meal that I had tonight,
Speaker 1: or I got to go to betterly, like just these
Speaker 1: little moments that you can cultivate a sense of gratitude
Speaker 1: in your life rather than trying to practice gratitude through
Speaker 1: exercises that are forced. Good. Good, Because you don't want
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of gratitude researchers to be out of
Speaker 1: business after listening to your podcast. We don't want we
Speaker 1: don't want to, so valuable. Don't misinterpret me there they
Speaker 1: might see as a threat, existential threat at their job. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: how can I complain more effectively? Because you say complaining
Speaker 1: can give us an expansive view of our psyche? Where
Speaker 1: did that one come from? With me? Did you just
Speaker 1: come to you like three in the morning, like you
Speaker 1: woke up? D probably give an expensive view of psyche? Okay,
Speaker 1: can you explain to us what that means? And how
Speaker 1: can I you know, how can I complain more effectively?
Speaker 1: I think complaining really shows us what's important to us,
Speaker 1: what we need to work on, where we might need
Speaker 1: connection in our lives, and so if we try to
Speaker 1: get rid of it completely, we miss out on all
Speaker 1: that data. A lot of what people are doing in
Speaker 1: therapy is a form of complaining, right, and we're taking
Speaker 1: all that information and making sense of it. So if
Speaker 1: you want to complain more effectively, it's helpful to know
Speaker 1: exactly what you want to be complaining about. So what
Speaker 1: are the facts, what's the narrative? Then what do you
Speaker 1: want to happen? I feel like a lot of people
Speaker 1: get stuck here of like do I just want to vent?
Speaker 1: Do I want there to be changed? And then that's
Speaker 1: going to dictate who can make that happen or what
Speaker 1: needs to happen for this change to happen, And then
Speaker 1: you're able to pick the right person or place to
Speaker 1: go to, which we also end up making the wrong
Speaker 1: choice here sometimes and that's when we get stuck in
Speaker 1: those complaint loops that feel never ending. Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: You say the goal is not to eliminate complaining from
Speaker 1: your life, but instead to make it more effective and adaptive.
Speaker 1: Is this related at all to healthy assertiveness versus aggressive?
Speaker 1: So you know, you know there's like all these different
Speaker 1: kinds of assertiveness that we learnt in the field of ACA. Sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you have to know what you're upset about,
Speaker 1: know what you want to complain about, and then engage
Speaker 1: in healthy assertiveness right to get your needs met. So
Speaker 1: whether it's that like your food is cold at a
Speaker 1: restaurant or whatever it is that you need to tell
Speaker 1: someone about so that they can fix it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that sounds about right. How can you support people? How
Speaker 1: can you support others in complaining effectively and in also
Speaker 1: giving polite advice to those who are toxic positivity people
Speaker 1: and being like, you know, you may want to die
Speaker 1: all that down, you know, how do you how can
Speaker 1: you do that? And then in the spirit of support
Speaker 1: not not not being an asshole? Right, So it's a
Speaker 1: paths on the relationship you know, I always tell people like,
Speaker 1: if somebody in the grocery sources to you like your
Speaker 1: babies crying and you like enjoy every minute, you might
Speaker 1: just want to say like, okay, thanks and move on.
Speaker 1: But if it's your which happens to me all the time.
Speaker 1: But if it's like your mom or someone close to you,
Speaker 1: it's okay to say, like, I I really know that
Speaker 1: you're trying to help me. I can tell that you're
Speaker 1: trying to be helpful, but that doesn't really help me,
Speaker 1: and tell them a way that they can be helpful
Speaker 1: to you instead, which is really unique for all of
Speaker 1: us across different situations. But I want people to feel
Speaker 1: empowered to share what is helpful to them and what isn't,
Speaker 1: because I think that's the only way people can learn
Speaker 1: how to be helpful to us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very
Speaker 1: very good point. You have four ingredients that people could
Speaker 1: include in their communication, curiosity, understanding, validation, and empathy. Do
Speaker 1: you want to unpack those far from me, sir, Yeah,
Speaker 1: So a lot of what happens when we use toxic
Speaker 1: positivity is we're just shutting the conversation down. So when
Speaker 1: you're able to get curious about the person's experience, ask
Speaker 1: them questions, but in a way to understand them more So,
Speaker 1: what's the hardest part for you? What are you worried out?
Speaker 1: Then you're able to get to this place where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: how can I have passion or empathy for this person?
Speaker 1: How can I show them that I hear them through
Speaker 1: validation of Like that sounds hard, I can see why
Speaker 1: you would be struggling with that. Those things make so
Speaker 1: much more of an impact than a platitude or a
Speaker 1: piece of advice. Good good, this woefully helpfully. A lot
Speaker 1: of people listening to this conversation, So, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1: You often see discrimination with a smile, right, And I
Speaker 1: thought that was an interesting phrase as well. And we
Speaker 1: talk about the ultimate gaslighting? What is the ultimate gaslighting?
Speaker 1: So I'll give an example. What I saw happening on
Speaker 1: social media when we were having a lot of conversations
Speaker 1: about race during the pandemic was all this toxic positivity
Speaker 1: that to me sounded like gaslight. So a person of
Speaker 1: color were talking about their experience, and then someone would say, gosh,
Speaker 1: can't we all just get along? I don't see color.
Speaker 1: Let's all just be nice to each other and to me,
Speaker 1: it was this way of saying, like a very nice,
Speaker 1: seemingly nice, positive way of saying, please don't talk about
Speaker 1: that anymore, or I don't really believe your experience. And
Speaker 1: I think we do this to people in marginalized identities
Speaker 1: all the time, and it sounds nice, but really it's
Speaker 1: really mean, it's terrible. Well your point, your point, which
Speaker 1: we can double click on here, is sometimes this discrimination
Speaker 1: can be disguised in the form of over niceness, but
Speaker 1: in a way that the means or or denigrate someone's
Speaker 1: lived experience, right, that ultimately shuts down the conversation. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you say, removing toxic positivity from conversations about health, illness,
Speaker 1: and disability requires us to confront a lot of difficult realities.
Speaker 1: So in a way, sometimes you think it's used as
Speaker 1: a band aid. Maybe toxic positivity. For sure. I think
Speaker 1: when we're talking about anything related to health or mortality,
Speaker 1: people get uncomfortable, and so it's almost like I want
Speaker 1: to make you feel better, but I also really want
Speaker 1: to make myself feel better by saying everything happens for
Speaker 1: a reason or it's going to be fine, Because I
Speaker 1: don't want to live in a place where this bad
Speaker 1: thing is possible. Yeah. Yeah, health and happiness are not
Speaker 1: a packaged deal. Who says they are are people saying
Speaker 1: they are. I think a lot of people think that
Speaker 1: if you are happy, if you have positive thoughts, you
Speaker 1: think positively health will be given to you, and that
Speaker 1: it's sort of like they come together in some ways.
Speaker 1: But you don't think that's the case. I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people that are very positive who struggle
Speaker 1: with their health. I think there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: that are extremely negative and live to be one hundred. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know that your mindset always dictates your physical health,
Speaker 1: you know, just riffing on the idea of the impact
Speaker 1: of social media on this and may you tend to
Speaker 1: see that correlation a lot looking at others and social
Speaker 1: media can give you a skewed perception of reality the
Speaker 1: extent to which they really go together in the real world,
Speaker 1: because people are just like showing themselves off right all
Speaker 1: the time in ways that are like, look, I'm happy
Speaker 1: and I'm healthy, you know, like look at my body,
Speaker 1: you know, look at my yoga poses. You know, do
Speaker 1: you see that as really problematic? I think that our
Speaker 1: brains are bombarded with so much of this imagery that
Speaker 1: even though we know on a logical level, like this
Speaker 1: is ten percent of that person's life, or it doesn't
Speaker 1: show the whole picture. It's very easy to forget that
Speaker 1: when your view constant images of people who appear healthy
Speaker 1: and happy, and that's what they're telling you and showing
Speaker 1: you yes, yes, thanks for making that point. So okay.
Speaker 1: So for a meaning timeless interview today, how can people
Speaker 1: opt out of the quest for happiness? So? I think
Speaker 1: living a values driven life, which a lot of people
Speaker 1: talk about this is really the most important thing. And
Speaker 1: when you're living in alignment with your values and what's
Speaker 1: important to you, you're able to accept that you're not
Speaker 1: always going to feel happy or positive emotions, but you're
Speaker 1: going to feel like your life has meaning and like
Speaker 1: you're doing the things that are important to you. I
Speaker 1: think the best example of this is like when it
Speaker 1: comes to parenting, that your kids and parenthood might be
Speaker 1: one of the most important things to you, but it's
Speaker 1: not always the thing that makes you the happiest, or
Speaker 1: it can be very frustrated sometimes, but it is often
Speaker 1: an important value for people. Yeah, the value driven life
Speaker 1: versus the happiness driven life. The value driven life is
Speaker 1: one that is would you associate that with more with
Speaker 1: meaning and happiness for sure, more with meaning, with really
Speaker 1: just knowing what's important to you, And I think what
Speaker 1: is important changes throughout our lifetime. Of course, you know,
Speaker 1: depending on how old you are and what stage of
Speaker 1: life you're in, that you can curate those values to like,
Speaker 1: this is what is important to me right now, and
Speaker 1: it's okay if that changes later, and it's more about
Speaker 1: what you believe versus these like happiness scripts that were
Speaker 1: given from society, of like, these are the things you
Speaker 1: need to do to be happy? Yeah, yeah. And then
Speaker 1: there's also a psychologist. I've identified another pathway, the psychologically
Speaker 1: rich life, which is one that's uh, I mean, does
Speaker 1: everything have to be so value driven? That sounds so serious?
Speaker 1: Like can't you sometimes just jump out of an airplane
Speaker 1: and just have fun? And that's not necessarily even they'm talking.
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about handania. I'm saying just engaging in rich, complex,
Speaker 1: interesting experiences that get you out of your comfort zone
Speaker 1: just for the sake of that, you know, right, I
Speaker 1: would say that could even be of value, like to
Speaker 1: say that spontaneity, fun excitement, like is something that you
Speaker 1: really it's an important part of your life and it's
Speaker 1: something you want to have access to. I think you know,
Speaker 1: I have dark side Sundays, right, and so I like
Speaker 1: one day of the week where I'd be like, do everything.
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit. If it's part of my
Speaker 1: value system, I love that. That's great. Okay. So one
Speaker 1: of the worst things about toxic positive is that when
Speaker 1: used in the wrong moments, it denies what we're feeling
Speaker 1: and makes us feel worse. So it is a feedback, right,
Speaker 1: It's a it's a part of a cycle. It can spile.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, toxic positive can spiral downwards. It's kind of
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Yeah, it's definitely this cycle that we
Speaker 1: can get stuck in. That I think goes back again
Speaker 1: to that feeling of like there's something wrong with me,
Speaker 1: because I am a human being who has feelings and
Speaker 1: I need to get rid of those feelings. And I
Speaker 1: think we see a lot of that on social media. Now.
Speaker 1: We really do, we really do. And yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: kudos to people like you who are pointing this out
Speaker 1: on social media and giving an alternative perspective. I mean,
Speaker 1: do you ever just scroll through the timelines and Instagram.
Speaker 1: I can imagine see, I can see your eyes were
Speaker 1: just rolling. Yeah. I didn't even know that this world
Speaker 1: really like existed on Instagram until I got on to
Speaker 1: market my own practice, and I was like, Wow, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of really interesting stuff out there, but you
Speaker 1: are really yeah, there really are. But humans are endlessly fascinating.
Speaker 1: And I feel like you also just learned a lot
Speaker 1: about what humans value in general by by scrolling through
Speaker 1: these things. I mean, you know all these like what
Speaker 1: do you think of all these inspirational videos, you know,
Speaker 1: like one after another or another with the cheesy music
Speaker 1: in the background, with the like you know, like and
Speaker 1: then we'll be Overkeeme not having any eyeballs, you know,
Speaker 1: and was able to have X ray vision, you know,
Speaker 1: and then it's like you're so inspired, right, You're like, wow,
Speaker 1: that's all. Do you do you think that ever goes
Speaker 1: too far those inspirational videos? I you know what, I
Speaker 1: think this goes back to like a little bit of
Speaker 1: what I talk in the book about, like if the
Speaker 1: person is disabled or there's something you know in their
Speaker 1: life that it kind of makes this pressure of like
Speaker 1: everything has to come to this positive ending, Like everything
Speaker 1: has to be inspirational or great in some way, because
Speaker 1: those are the only stories that we hear on social
Speaker 1: media that you know, we don't we don't hear about
Speaker 1: the person that didn't have a good ending. They're not
Speaker 1: getting the video. What a great point. I think we
Speaker 1: really should have more videos of people just be like everyone, Look,
Speaker 1: I'm really not having a good day today, Like today's
Speaker 1: kind of sucks and I just wanted to let y'all
Speaker 1: know that. And my heart goes out to all those
Speaker 1: who are suffering from the same thing. Maybe do that.
Speaker 1: That's a good idea. Oh my god, I'm hearing myself talk.
Speaker 1: I'm like, there's viral potential. There is there is you're
Speaker 1: onto something, something you say, and this is you, including
Speaker 1: you. You You say it's okay to just be you know. Wow,
Speaker 1: I wish I knew that before today. I want to
Speaker 1: save a lot of pain and suffering. Right well, now
Speaker 1: I'm noticing this thing on social media that I definitely
Speaker 1: have participated in and perpetuated that there's always something to fix,
Speaker 1: always something to obsess over. That I feel like people
Speaker 1: now are just becoming obsessed with fixing themselves. And yes,
Speaker 1: like we all need to do our own work and
Speaker 1: get to this place. But I want everyone to know
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to live and like enjoy life then
Speaker 1: not be you know, just always looking for the next
Speaker 1: trauma or attachment style or this that like it can
Speaker 1: be just a lot, Yeah, of a lot. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: it's good to just like just dial it all down
Speaker 1: and just just exist. Yeah, I totally hear you. So
Speaker 1: we would we'd be remiss not to mention Gabriel ol
Speaker 1: Engine's research because sometimes a little positive fantasy does help,
Speaker 1: you know. Don't tell me to like eradicate all positive
Speaker 1: fantasies from my head, please, because you know, also, my
Speaker 1: advisor in grad school, Jeromel Singer, studied positive constructive daydreaming.
Speaker 1: You know, So, so in what ways can can that
Speaker 1: can that be helpful? That type of like positive fantasy
Speaker 1: can help you get from like moment to moment. So
Speaker 1: they've shown like people that are in more time or
Speaker 1: in prison or things like that, fantasizing about what's next
Speaker 1: what could be can really help you or the storm
Speaker 1: of that moment of something very difficult. Even though so
Speaker 1: talk more about Gabriel Oldigen's research. She found that sometimes
Speaker 1: though fantasies can deplete you from wanting to actually make
Speaker 1: it a reality right in the real world, So be
Speaker 1: a double edged sword. Well, they talk about like how
Speaker 1: a lot of these positive fantasies don't allow you to
Speaker 1: look out for obstacles or to create a plan, right,
Speaker 1: You're just focusing on like how great it's going to
Speaker 1: be when all of this happens. And so it's like
Speaker 1: that the whoop technique that doctor a Jen talks about
Speaker 1: is really getting in touch with you know, what is
Speaker 1: your wish, what do you want the outcome to be,
Speaker 1: What problems could come up? What opportunities do you have
Speaker 1: in getting a full picture of like the attack instead
Speaker 1: of just having this positive fantasy about it. Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: So you're in no way advocating today that we need
Speaker 1: to eradicate positivity from our language and our dreams and desires.
Speaker 1: You're not, like, you know, like Satan. I'm sure some
Speaker 1: real positive people maybe have accused me of that from
Speaker 1: time to time. But I think positivity has a time,
Speaker 1: a place, a purpose. I just think we've become so
Speaker 1: obsessed with it to a degree that it's starting to
Speaker 1: hurt us more than help us. I hear you, I'm
Speaker 1: going to end with some quotes from you. Not all
Speaker 1: positivity happiness. Our good vibes are bad. Remember to look
Speaker 1: out for the timing, audience, and topic that you're discussing.
Speaker 1: This is the best way to identify if something as
Speaker 1: toxic positivity. That's basically what you just said. And then
Speaker 1: I want to end with this note. When we opt
Speaker 1: out of the predetermined path toward happiness, we gain access
Speaker 1: to so much more. You'll get to feel all that
Speaker 1: join pain, comfort and discomfort, growth and stagnation. You'll be
Speaker 1: able to ride the waves of life and know that
Speaker 1: there isn't this final happiness destination. This is it. This
Speaker 1: is what we've got, and all the feelings, ups and downs,
Speaker 1: changes and chaos certainly make the ride much more interesting. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on my podcast today
Speaker 1: and making my life more interesting today and by having
Speaker 1: this chat. Thank you so much for having me my pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to react in some way to something
Speaker 1: you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion
Speaker 1: at thus psychologypodcast dot com. We're on our YouTube page
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast. We also put up some videos of
Speaker 1: some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so you'll
Speaker 1: want to check that out. Thanks for being such a
Speaker 1: great supporter of the show, and tune in next time
Speaker 1: for more on the mind, brain, behavior and creativity.