WEBVTT - Monsters 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:06.600 After the massacre occurred, but before her arrest, mother Angela 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.880 Wagner took to social media to speak out about the victims. 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:15.720 Here's an excerpt from one of those posts. What has 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 happened to us in the past few weeks has been 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:20.040 devastating and it will follow us for the rest of 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:24.520 our lives. Hannah was a daughter to me. I loved 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:28.880 her dearly. Her laws still hurts to this day. We 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.479 want justice like everyone else. Let's try to find the 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:39.240 real monsters who've done this. Turns out she was the monster. 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.640 This is the Pike Did Massacre A production of Katie 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:56.120 Studios and iHeartRadio Season three, Episode two Monsters. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:00.040 a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:04.400 Jeff Shane, and preparation for this season, We've been speaking 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.839 to many sources in and around Pike County who would 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.360 not go on the record before, probably because they were scared, 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.880 but now they are ready to talk. In some cases 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:19.200 they were fearing retribution, including those close to Angela. There 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:23.039 are so many perspectives on Mom Angela Wagner, and it 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.959 begs the question, is it possible for a human being 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:32.280 to be all things at once. Throughout all of these 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.880 conversations and interviews, we've learned a lot more about the victims, 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:40.759 the Rodent family, and the alleged killers, the Wagners. This 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.679 includes other theories and information that goes generations deep, and 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:50.040 some of it has far reaching and sometimes nefarious tentacles. 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.200 Here's what we know about Angela Wagner. She had a 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:03.080 mother named Rita Newcome. I actually met her in person, 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.040 was in her home just days after she was released. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.360 And she was married to a man named Pug Carter, 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:14.120 Angela's father. They at some point divorced, Rita remarried and 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.800 had a second child, twenty years younger, her half brother, 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.000 Chris Newcomb. Chris has agreed to speak with us for 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.080 the podcast on the record for the very first time. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:30.200 Has now a good time? Do you have a minute? Well? 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.560 What would you wanting to know? You are Angela's half brother. 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:35.960 Explain that all to me, Like how you're related and 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.359 how much younger you are. Angela is my half sister 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.280 from my mom's first marriage. We got the same mom. 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:46.840 She is twenty years older than I am. Well, here's 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.639 my backstory that I can give for your radio thing. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.040 I grew up with George and Jake, like my brothers. 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.119 I was always closer to George than I was with Jake. 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:58.480 George would do anything in the world for anybody out 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.320 of Never in my life thought this out of him. 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.000 Jake on he has hand, I'd have never thought it 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:04.840 out of him either. But he's always been a little odd. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.160 I mean, he just always has been. My sister met 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:10.600 here never really got along that well. Jake ain't no 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.560 better in my opinion, and I got nothing for him 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:17.960 at all. Billy's Billy. He's always been Billy. I mean, 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:19.960 everybody was trying to say. And he might have been 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:22.000 the brains of the operation that some bitches stamp film. 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:23.760 He couldn't hit the ground with his hat three tries, 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.200 So you didn't really grow up with her. I never 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.240 grew up with her at all, hardly. I mean when 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:30.760 I wasn't even a year old, I was like nine, 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.960 ten months old, she got pregnant with George, her oldest boy, 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:41.080 which would be my nephew. How did you see any 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.000 of them, George, Jay, Cancel or Billy And back when 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.360 I was a kid, hell, I was always I had 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:46.800 to go over and spend the night for two three 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.400 weeks at a time. Oh wow. Hell, I spent several 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:53.400 summers over there, and when we got older and stuff 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:55.880 like that. I'd see George when every swung by or 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.280 he'd called and say, hey, we're gonna go hunting and 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.080 we're gonna move fishing. So we'd all go out and 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.880 do that. So you might grow up with Jake and 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:09.320 George being your peers. Oh yeah, yeah, we grew up 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.440 more like brothers than we did uncle and nephews. I mean, 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:13.400 we as close as hell. When of these kids, she'd 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:15.200 treat me as one of the kids. But it just, 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.400 I don't know, it seemed cold. Whenever she had to 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.320 do something for me. It wasn't like a like a 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.920 warming feeling, like you know here I want I want 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:25.520 to help you have fun, or I want to help 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.520 you out do this. It was just cold. Was she 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:30.919 liked that with the boys too? Are just yell, not 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.680 really just made Mainly, I don't think she liked me much. 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.520 Why Why do you think that is? I don't know. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:38.080 I didn't like her either, so I kind of worked 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:42.200 out I never looked into my sister was very controlling person. 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.040 Whenever rise around, she always tried to control every aspect 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:46.640 that I did, and I pretty much told her go 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:48.640 to hell and that was the end of it. But 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.440 I mean she pretty much controlled every aspect of their life, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.679 right down to their social media, their Facebook, their Message 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.280 or Twitter. They're fucking uh, their dating sites. They had 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.760 dating sites, and she actually had the information for their 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:08.040 dating sites. She had to passwords to it. No. Yes, 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:13.440 So when you were a kid and you would spend 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.400 summers there or extended periods of time, Angela was your sister. 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.640 But I imagine treated you like a mom. You should 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:22.880 probably helped cook for you and treated you like one 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.000 of the boys. Was she kind to you that or 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.680 was she always judge? Kind of a mixture of both. 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.800 She was kind of a judge, kind of fake. What 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.080 do you mean by that? It just seemed like she 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.040 would be nice, but it was all like an act 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.520 because she always told me, she said I'll never amount 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.080 to anything. And she didn't tell just me that, she 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:43.880 told other people that. She said that I would never 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.000 amount to nothing and I'd probably end up spending the 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:51.080 rest of my life in jail. I almost want to 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.560 answer a phone call from her just to laugh at her. Wow, 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.080 you mentioned you and Angela were raised differently. How would 0:05:58.080 --> 0:05:59.640 you describe how you were raised and how would you 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.280 say how she was raised. I wasn't around whenever she 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:05.360 was being raised, you know, I wouldn't even have thought 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:09.720 then mom was still married to her dad, Pug or 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.120 Eddie Edward Carter. He was always a good old guy. 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.000 I knew him, ra Will you like Pug? Oh? I 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.960 thought the world Pug Eddie Carter, better known as Pug, 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.880 was Angela Wagner's father. We didn't know much about him 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.120 or Angela's upbringing and how that might have shaped the 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:31.520 person she is until now. Here's Jeff speaking to an 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:34.960 anonymous friend of the Carter family who reached out to us. 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.440 Your message is really interesting to me. I would love 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:40.960 to just kind of like hear all of it. And 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:42.800 now you found this information out on what your take 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:46.359 on all of it is. I grew up in South Webster, 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.440 where the Wagners came back from Alaska's where they moved to, 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.479 and the actual house that they lived in was the 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.839 house of her dad. I knew him as a Pug Carter. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.000 He always wore this like metal brace and he walked 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.039 with a limp. He heard from my dad was that 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.839 he would climb electric poles and steal copper or something 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.000 off of the poles, and he's gotten electric uted and 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.720 it affected his walking. When money would get tight by 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:13.760 Black would go like pawn things to little but he 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.840 ran like a I guess it would be illegal pawnshop 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.960 where people would go take like small tools, long equitable, 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.320 you know, stuff like that. I think he'd gotten in 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.400 trouble for forgery. One time. People would take their vehicle 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.240 titles and pawned them to him for money, and he 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.440 got to where he would like he would forge the 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:36.200 titles and sell the vehicles, so people were like losing cars. 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:37.840 So somebody eventually took him to court for that. And 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:39.560 he'd done that for several years before he got in 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.960 trouble for him, and that's the reason why Dad quit 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.880 feeling with him. Explain that to me. So I would 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.520 take my car title and sell it to him. You 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:50.400 would pawn it him, so you would give him your 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.720 title and he would give you a couple hundred dollars 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:54.440 and you'd pay it back, or once you paid him back, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:56.880 he would give your title back. But then he started 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.600 like selling the vehicles before people had a chance to 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:04.680 pay him back. The whole opioid epidemics started around here, 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.280 and I guess he'd gotten into pills and stuff and 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:09.760 he was started selling drugs as well as running this 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:15.840 underground pawn shop he was doing. There isn't a lot 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.120 of information out there about Puck Carter, but what we 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.200 could find included a criminal record filled with arrests for assault, 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:30.480 receiving stolen property, and truck possession. From what I remember 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:32.600 is that there was like an undercover seeing where the 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.840 police were going to his house and purchasing and selling drugs. 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.360 So actual drug bust is how he got caught. But 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.400 the reason Michael Moran came into is Michael Moran he 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:44.319 was like the cheaper lawyer. So if you were kind 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.480 of poorer on like the lower income level, he would 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:48.920 work out a deal where you didn't have to pay 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:50.959 as much for a lawyer like he was who all 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:52.800 the poorer people went to. And I think that's really 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.319 how he got to where he could target prostitutes and stuff, 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.679 is because they were lower income and they could afford 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.600 his services. It's not a surprise to me that her 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:06.280 dad had him as a lawyer. It's important to note 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.680 that the recollections that Michael Moran was put Carter's attorney 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.040 is strictly the first hand account of our anonymous source. 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:19.000 Here's Stephanie and Jeff. We talked about Michael Moran in 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.720 season two. He's an attorney and a former city councilman 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.600 in Portsmouth, which is about twenty five miles south of 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:30.760 Pike County. He had multiple allegations against him, including sex trafficking, 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.440 the disappearance of several young women connected to him personally, 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.000 and the possible murder of another at the age of 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.439 seventy five while out on bail and awaiting trial for 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:47.280 promoting prostitution, compelling prostitution, human trafficking, and engaging in a 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:51.160 pattern of corrupt activity. Michael Moran died in November of 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:57.840 twenty twenty one. There's a place called Big Bear Lake 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.360 that has come up a lot over the year in 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:03.360 our research. It's this spot not too far from Pike 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.480 County that people go to on vacation. Essentially, it's like 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.160 a holiday location. We're going to discuss this further, but 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:14.160 it's also been alleged that it's a spot where sex 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:19.559 trafficking happens, drug trafficking happens, and potentially there's a connection 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:24.840 between Michael Moran and the Wagner family. I have to 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.400 be really honest, my mouth dropped when we heard the 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:32.080 connection between Pug Carter, Angela Wagner's father, and Michael Moran. 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:37.040 It's full circle. It just further speaks to this idea 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.040 that Pike County and the surrounding area is where people 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.320 in power continue to stay in power by abusing other people. 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:50.040 It also points to a larger plot here. Angie was 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.240 always really close with her dad, Like I remember her 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:54.679 being at her dad's often, like she took care of 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.520 her dad. What I've heard locally is that's why they 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.240 came back from Alaska's because Billy's dad had died and 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.680 her dadded night they needed to settle those estates, and 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.320 then they ended up moving into his house to Plug's house, 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.600 and that's where they lived when they were arrested. Did 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.839 you have any interaction with them when they came back. No, 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:15.920 Nobody really knew they were here until they were arrested. 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.640 People would be like, Oh, I think I saw Angela 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.680 and Jake at Jackson Walmart, which is a completely different county. 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:23.679 I think they were going there, so they weren't noticed, 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:26.439 and everybody's like, no, there's no way. Then all of 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.200 a sudden they were arrested, and we're like, oh, well, 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.680 maybe it was true. They were back into town. But 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.360 if you drive by Plug's house, like the wagoner's vehicles 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.160 are still there, it's still as if it was the 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.040 day they were arrested. Nothing has been best with or moved. 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.640 Somebody cuts the grass, but as far as like they're 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.040 stuff still being in there, it is still there. Can 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.320 you paint the picture for me? So like a brick 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.760 ranch home with you know, like a big grawl lot 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:53.160 and they're still kind of stuff out. It still kind 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.080 of looks like it did when Plug own didn't but 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.360 there's like vehicles setting outside. They had like this really 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.800 big Dodge Ram Diesel truck. When you have something like 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.079 that around here, it means you have money. It's interesting 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.360 that that stuff wasn't seized. Yeah, we kind you get 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:09.960 like a Garie feeling when you drive farther too, It's like, oh, 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.760 there's so much bad stuff that's happened in that one house. 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.760 A crime goes Yeah, I mean that's where they were 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.920 hiding out and potentially they were there planning those murders, 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:28.680 So we're going to take a break. We'll be back 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:37.760 in a moment. Sammy Joe grew up in the piked 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.480 In area and was closed with both the Wagner and 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:46.960 the Rodent families. Sammy spent a lot of time at 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.920 the Wagner's home, where she found Angela to be not 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:55.559 so much motherly as controlling. Here she is speaking with Stephanie. 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.520 I grew up with the Wagner and then I dated 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.320 Frankie wrote, where were you when you heard all of 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:08.240 the news about the murders. I was standing in my 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:13.040 living room, and I lived not tremendously far away, but 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:17.640 I heard all the sirens and everything going on. The 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.120 next thing, you know, my Facebook was all lit up 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.360 with family members found dead. And I'm thinking, there ain't 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:29.199 no way we all talk about Angela Wagner, the mom 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.640 of killers, as being in the mastermind. Oh, I wouldn't 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:39.000 put a pastor if Angela said jump and you didn't 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:44.040 say how high Angela got mapped, especially with Jake. Jake 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.520 was her baby. Like if Angela didn't like me, Jake 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.760 wasn't allowed to like me that week. I didn't come 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.800 from the right family or I did her wrong in 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.000 her eyes or something. What about Billy would you describe him? 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.080 What was he like? He was a type of guy 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.280 that he could crack a joke and you would laugh 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:05.480 for days. My dad had a stroke, a massive brain 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.800 laying a stroke, and I remember writing Angela and I said, hey, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.640 this is Samantha Brian Frederick's daughter. I need to get 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.600 ahold of Billy. And Billy got ahold of me, and 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.120 I told him my fight listened. The house that we're 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.560 living in the floor falling through. They will not let 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:23.520 my dad come home and let I get the floor fit. 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.880 Billy showed up with plywood feed for my animals. He 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:32.280 had bought me cinnamon products, a shampoo conditioner, like he 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.920 was there to help, like in his mom. I got 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.280 ahold of Billy and I'd say, listen, my mom's behind 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.800 on the electric bill. We're in disconnect. They're literally shutting 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.840 us off. We need a good amount of money. And 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.280 Frederika got ahold of us and she paid our electric bill. 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.440 They wasn't bad people. I mean they're bad people now, 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:57.360 but I honestly, in my opinion, I don't think they 0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.600 were all in vault. I think there was other people 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:07.160 in ball under Angela's demand, right, is it possible that 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:11.240 they weren't even there and that maybe other people were 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:16.360 there that night. In my opinion, yes, I think they know, 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:21.960 but they won't speak about it. I think the boys 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:26.000 know what happened, and if they speak about it, they'll 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:39.680 be dead. And that's my opinion. Jake and George was 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.480 always homeschooled, like they were never in public schools. The 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.520 public systems that Angela was not good enough for her boy, 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:51.840 so her teaching her kids was better. I don't know 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.800 how much better that was, but it was teaching them 0:15:55.040 --> 0:16:00.400 pretty much. What Angela said goes like she's off the 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:02.200 vibe of like if she said you're going to rub 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.680 a bank and you tell her no, like she gets scary. 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.280 I love the boys to death. They're a little weird, 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.880 but I love them to death. I remember decades ago 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:22.200 we all went to the bull riding thing and Billy 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.160 and her got my little argument. I've never seen a 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.640 grown man in an argument shut up so fast in 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.680 my life, Like the argument was over within seconds. It 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:37.920 was controlling, is what it was. And have you been 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:39.880 in the house when all of them were home at 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:45.160 the same time. Yeah, the house was always quiet, very quiet. 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:50.200 Normally would be Billy sitting there in a chair grinding 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.520 his teeth, just sitting there watching TV. That would be 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.440 like the living room area. Angela would normally in their 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:00.680 cooking and then off. All that in the bag was 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.920 the boys' room. To the left was Georgie's room, until 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.800 the right was Jake's room. Of course, typical boys, you're 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.200 going to have to your heads and guns in there. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:16.879 And that's pretty much the house. I can't remember a 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.560 time that they were one of the houses burnt down 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.200 and they were living in a shack and they were 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.480 all cramped up in this little living room area and 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.520 I'm standing there by the door with my dad. It 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:33.000 was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. As 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.879 a reminder, this is Sammy Joe's recollection of events. I 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.440 could tell you every place that they had, every place 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.919 that burned down. I can't prove that it was in Churce, 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:49.200 but that many houses. There's the trailer, trailer, slush house, 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:53.240 the building. There's like a good four or five places 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:58.080 at Burndale pluses in my truck. There wasn't anybody home 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:05.639 or in the houses when they burnt down. Correct We've 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.080 heard for several years about suspicious fires related to Angela 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.960 and Billy Wagner, but have never been able to speak 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:16.600 out about it. However, now these allegations have been substantiated 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:21.840 in court. On May second, twenty two, Special Prosecutor Angie 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:26.760 Kneppa references arson in connection with the Wagner family multiple times. 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.359 Some of these acts are alleged. Some of these we 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.360 have again high levels of proof, specifically number one, multiple 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.800 instances of arson of various properties for their own financial gain. 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.160 Everybody in the conspiracy has their own role, and they 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:50.480 carry out that role. Ironically. Oftentimes Angela absents herself from 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.720 the crime itself. The men Jake, George and Billy carry 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:58.800 out the crime, and then they have a story, cover 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:05.760 up story. I probably had a chance to talk to George. 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.200 I honestly would, because I just want to know why 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:13.000 I actually want fishing with George. Shortly after and it 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:17.240 got brought up, Wait, you went fishing with George Wagner 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:23.560 after the murders, I asked him. I was like, I 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.720 can't believe this happened. And because him and Frankie after 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.600 a while got row close. As terrible as it is 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.439 to say, now victim Frankie Rodin and accused murderer George 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:39.080 Wagner were known to be good friends. Sammy Job calls 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.360 the time when Frankie Rodin was standing up to Jake 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:46.480 Wagner to defend his sister Hannah May. I did hear 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:50.359 about Frankie and Jay getting into it, because I guess 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:56.160 Jake and Hannah got into it and Jake had hit Hannah. 0:19:56.800 --> 0:19:59.840 Sorry to interrupt, but just for clarity, you're referring to 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:10.400 to victim Frankie Rodin Hadame Rodin's older brother, right, Yeah, 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.280 but I don't know. I wasn't there or that's just 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:18.560 what I was told. But George like shut me out, 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.800 like he goes, how could we do it? Because they 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.360 were already being questioned who was going to be there 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.320 with the kids, And I was like, well, I don't know. 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.639 I was like, there's just something wrong. Like he totally 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.800 shut me out. Like I knew sometime was wrong that 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.040 day when we were talking about it, like our vision 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.119 trip was going good and it got run roll fucked. 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.760 Like I talked to them why they were in Alaska? 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.560 Tell me about the Alaska piece. Why Alaska that's been 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:59.040 the boys' dream since they were Mehi to Grosshopper. Do 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.560 you know if Angela and Hannah at any point had 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.720 a positive relationship, even back in the early days. Oh yeah, 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.160 one one time. They loved each other as far as 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:13.880 I know. But Angelo was the type of person if 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:16.479 you say or do something out of the way, you're 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:23.760 a bad person. Why, I think, honestly because Hannah was 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.080 the type of person. But first I know that's what 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:31.280 I mean. And Angela wasn't getting her way with the custody, 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.080 And I honestly feel like, and this was my opinion, 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.840 Angela was afraid that Hannah was going to take away 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.240 all visitations and that's how it was going to be. 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.520 Not only did Sammy Joe know the Wagner family, but 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:54.359 she also knew the Rodents intimately when they were very 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:58.160 much alive. She spent a lot of time at mother 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:02.720 Diana Roden's house sitting her boyfriend Frankie. How old were 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.480 you when you dated Frankie Rodin. I dated him from 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.960 seventh grade to like ninth grade. He was fun and 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:10.919 you just like the rest of him, like he was 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:15.200 so well going, give the shirt off his back, caring Malsee. 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.320 When you were dating Frankie, did you spend any time 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.639 at the road and home? What were they like? What 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.960 was their home like? It was fun, like it was 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:32.160 a live like that place was alive. Frankie would write 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.480 a bus home with me. Mostly I write a bus 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:36.560 home with them and just spend a lot of time 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.800 out there. I spent more time than even at my 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:46.000 own house. And was Dana close with Frankie? Oh that 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:49.040 was her baby boy? Like should hurt someone over her kids? 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:51.879 Could you physically describe her? Like? What did she look like? 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.480 Her hair was always sure? We always called her fluffy. 0:22:55.720 --> 0:23:01.320 She was about five to seven, very loud, but yeah, 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:04.080 like I never wanted to go home, like I actually 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.560 felt like I was wanted. She would go out of 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.840 your way like my dream shoes was I called him 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:15.040 Abby's shoes like they were the very long shoes that 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.560 zip up the back. I can't remember what they're called 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:23.480 now and her and Frankie Blomingham. I had those shoes 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:29.199 for years. Did you know Hannah Gilly Frankie lover? You 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:32.960 could tell Sammy Joe shared a recollection she had about 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:36.080 Hanna me roudin Hannah. She would drive past my house 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:39.960 just honking, and she drove by Honk and I was 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:41.960 on my porch. She was I'll see you later. I 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:44.840 called to see you later, and I didn't get to 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:47.720 see her later because she was dead the next day. 0:23:54.240 --> 0:24:05.920 Let's stop here for another break. While Sammy Joe's relationship 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:08.480 with Angela was similar to what we've heard from other 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:12.120 people and in childs that she was controlling and suspicious. 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:17.119 Like all people, Angela is different things to different people. 0:24:18.800 --> 0:24:21.840 Here's Howe, a family friend who knew the Wagners both 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:25.880 in Ohio and Alaska. My understanding is that you had 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:28.760 a very close relationship with the Wagner family. I grew 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:30.280 up with them and went to church and them and 0:24:30.320 --> 0:24:32.600 things like that. Tell me about them. What were they like? 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:35.439 I always thought they were great people. I've stated at 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:37.920 their house multiple times. Like I said, I've gone to 0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:39.600 church with them growing up. It's kind of like a 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:42.040 second family to me. I thought they were decent people. 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:45.040