WEBVTT - How the Innocence Project Works 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.880 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.480 It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:14.680 from House Stuff works dot com. This episode of Stuff 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:16.760 you Should Know is brought to you by Go to Meeting. 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:18.959 We all have to meet, but the average cost of 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.600 a single business trip is one thousand dollars. With just 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:23.959 one click, you can save time and money and have 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:26.920 your meetings online with affordable and easy to use Go 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.800 to Meeting. Use Go to Meeting for sales, presentations, product demos, 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.360 training sessions, collaborating on documents and more, and at forty 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:37.879 nine dollars per month for unlimited meetings, it saves time, money, 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.760 and travel. Try Go to Meeting free for thirty days. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.000 Visit Go to Meeting dot com slash stuff. That's Go 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:49.159 to meeting dot com slash stuff. Hey and welcome to 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.320 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me as always as 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:58.840 Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and our newest co star, Jerry Rowland. Yeah, 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:01.880 Jerry's been getting people like her more than us now, 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.880 Oh yeah, can we just say that? Yeah? Yeah, Guatemala 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:11.360 debut there like she's getting married proposals, um. She has 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.360 been it's been suggested she should get her own Facebook 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.800 fan page, and she's taken to smacking me on the 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:21.520 bottom whenever I walk past her and she tells me 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:23.960 to go get her some coffee or something. Chief Yeah, 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:29.880 chief guy. Yeah, So it's weird. Jerry's kind of blown up. Yes, 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:31.520 it was hard to fit in this room with her 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.680 head in here. At the same time, I know it's 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:36.720 a little warm in here, isn't it. Yeah, it's hot, 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:42.280 So Chuck, Josh, Um, would you and I had a 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.880 rare opportunity recently, a perk, I guess you could say, 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:50.800 of working for Mother Discovery. Ure. Um, we spoke to 0:01:51.400 --> 0:02:00.000 Ms Paula is On. Yes, uh, legendary broadcaster, journalist, newswoman, newsperson. Yeah, 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:05.960 and um. We were approached by our marketing people who said, hey, 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.000 you guys want to talk to Paula is On And 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.000 we said, of course, we want to talk to Paulazan. 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.160 When do you want to talk to Paulson? They're like, 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.560 you don't need to get all defensive and we're like, well, 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:16.360 would you And it just kind of went on like 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.400 that for a little while. Um, and then finally we 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:21.400 ended up on the phone with Paula is on and 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:23.680 just started talking to her. She's got a show on 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.720 UM Investigation Discovery I D for those of us who 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.440 work for Discovery, UM, and UH, it's called On the 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.120 Case with paul is on. It's on every Sunday at 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:38.720 ten pm. She'll she'll shill and UM. We we started 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.960 talking to her about true crime. Right, Yeah, it's pretty cool. 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.080 I mean we get interview UH setups like this. Sometimes 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:46.520 we were kind of like, I don't know about that, 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:51.280 but I'm way into courtroom drama and crime and really 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.240 a good hour long show like that. So I was 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.360 way way down with it, right and UM she started 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.680 talking about like, if you've gotten the impression that we 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:01.840 weren't really certain what we were going to do with 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:06.240 the interview, you were right. Um. But she started talking about, 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:10.000 UM this uh one case that she did an episode 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:14.400 on UM that the Innocence Projects factored into, and that 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:16.720 kind of rang a bell. But we started looking into it, 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:21.520 and UM we remembered that last October there was a 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:26.639 big kerfuffle about the Innocence Project UM out of Northwestern 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:31.800 University's Medill Journalism School UM and the I think the 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:39.480 Cook County UM chief prosecutor, maybe the state's attorney even stronger, 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:43.320 more potent UM wanted to subpoena all of the notes 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.520 and the grades of all the students on this case. 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.040 And it was just a big stinky deal. Yeah, because 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.160 the deal was as these were journalism students as opposed 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.840 to law students, So there was it's a bit of 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.240 a fine line there between. You know, journalists aren't supposed 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.000 to go up their sources telling these journalists they have 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.960 to student journalists they have to turn over all their information, 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.040 and so it's kind of a big deal as to 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.200 where the singing's upright, and uh, as far as I know, 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.320 it's gone kind of cold, right, Yeah, I think so. 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.720 But it was enough to spur our interest in UM 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.120 looking up the Innocence Project a little more and we realized, 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.960 ding ding ding, this is uh it, this is what 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:25.920 we're going to do it on. Yeah, this is just 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.680 a cool program. Yeah, I've heard of it before. Basically, 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.120 the Innocence Project, if you haven't heard of it is 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.760 they are those when you hear about a a murder 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.400 case where someone's been in prison for twenty years for 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.839 a murder care or rate case or doesn't really matter 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:40.560 what kind of case it is. As long as there 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.160 is DNA evidence that they can dig back up and 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:49.200 retest with modern methods, they can exonerate some uh you know, 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.480 an innocent person. Yeah, some mugs who have been in 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:54.960 jail for a long long time. And these are the 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:56.640 people that you see on the news that's like, yeah, 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.560 I was in jail for twenty eight years and now 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.279 I'm a freeman. And thanks to the Innocence Project right. Um. 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:06.160 The the group themselves, uh were It was founded by 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:11.120 a couple of guys named Barry C. Scheck and Peter J. Newfield. 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:13.599 He was on the o J team for a while. 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:18.160 Wud he Yeah, yeah, um, and uh they founded This 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:22.839 project is part of the Benjamin Cardoza School of Law 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:27.960 Yeshiva University. Right And basically what they do is poor people, 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.279 and by poor I mean both senses of the word 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:37.640 literally and figuratively. UM who have been incarcerated wrongly get 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:44.360 really top notch quality UM legal aid for free UM 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.479 from law students, mostly law students, but then in the 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.640 case of Northwestern University, it can also be journalisms to 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:56.440 UM who start pounding the pavement, interviewing old leads, coming 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.680 up with new ones trying to find the person who 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.719 actually did the crime. Yeah, it's based in DNA evidence, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.440 but the students actually do a lot more investigating as 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:08.920 if it was just an open case. Yeah, and it's 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.440 not only DNA. It's pretty cool. Out of the d 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.240 n axoneration cases, there's been two hundred and fifty four 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.360 since the first one in But out of those two 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:22.440 fifty four, um in a hundred uh one hundred and 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.480 eleven of those cases, the actual perpetrator has been found 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.880 from the DNA investigation. Yeah, and that's something that Check 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.160 likes to point out. Obviously he's hanging his hat on that, right. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.400 But the so you say, well, why do you need 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.480 a group of do good or Scooby Doo law school 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.839 kids to go do this? Uh? The reason why you 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.120 have to do is because you virtually need a law 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.520 degree or to be well on your way to earning 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.040 a law degree, to navigate the kind of um legal 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:54.279 waters it takes to file an innocence appeal, uh, post 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.560 conviction appeal saying I'm actually innocent and I need you 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:02.680 to go conduct some DNA tests that weren't conducted before 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:07.760 because my courter, pointed attorney was lazy, or because there 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.800 wasn't DNA testing before, or because a lot of the 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.200 original evidence was destroyed, which we'll get to, which happens 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:18.160 way more than I was comfortable with. Yeah. That I 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:22.640 think is the key takeaway for me from researching the 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:28.680 Innocence Project is that our legal system is fundamentally flawed 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.040 in a lot of ways as right. Yeah, in more 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.600 than one way. You're absolutely right, as anybody who saw 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:40.400 them Tom Selick movie An Innocent Man knows. Cops aren't 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:42.880 always on the up and up. Yeah, a lot of 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:44.560 times you'll get it. I mean a lot of these 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:48.760 cases that we reviewed, and we're not knocking cops, believe me, 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.200 or detectives, but there's often a lot of pressure on 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.960 these high profile cases to find somebody, and if there's 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.680 some material evidence there or some eyewitnesses that may or 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.960 not be too credible, sometimes there's a little coercion. Sometimes 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.040 there's a snitch and all of a sudden you have 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.760 somebody that's going to prison for something they didn't do. Right. Um, 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:16.720 there was this a really big landmark deluge case um 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.000 out of the l A. P D. I think in 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.920 two thousand where one of the guys on this elite 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:29.040 crash unit. UM was busted with six pounds of stolen 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:34.400 cocaine that he was dealing. Yeah, and he started dropping 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.880 bombshells like nobody's business. He and other people on the 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:44.520 force UM have been shooting innocent people, in framing them 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:49.760 with guns, stealing drugs, dealing drugs, stealing money, framing people, 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.720 and as a result, between a hundred and a hundred 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:57.160 and fifty convicted felons were released. They had their their 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:01.720 convictions overturned because they've been framed. So it definitely happens. 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.360 It's not just in Los Angeles and it's not just 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.400 in Denzel Washington movies. Right, you kind of get the 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:14.040 idea that there's a systemic, kind of informal procedure for 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:19.680 railroading somebody that you are pretty sure it is guilty, 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.080 but you don't really have a slam dunk case. So 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.000 well that's the case, which we'll get to. Yeah. Remember 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.600 how like they found out that several people had been 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.440 convicted in the same manner after this guy, Yeah, which 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.880 is kind of chilling, like because you're seeing how the 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:39.360 investigators and the prosecutors down in Brevard County functioned in 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.600 like the early eighties. You know. Um, so, Chuck, let's 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:48.480 talk about how people um end up wrongfully convicted. Right, Yes, 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.520 there are many ways that this can happen, but here 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:57.080 are a few. Eye witnessed misidentification is a huge one. Um, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.000 it was a factor. They've got some stats here, which 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.720 is awesome. It's uh, this kind of testimony has been 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:07.040 a factor in seventy of post conviction DNA exoneration. So 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.240 when they have let someone free with the Innocence Project 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:13.679 or you know, maybe not with the Innocence Project, at 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.680 a time, there has been misidentification. And one of the 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:23.319 big problems is uh involving race cross cross Racial identification 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.800 is usually the culprit, and they found in studies that 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.520 people are less able to recognize faces of a different 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.520 race than their own. Right. It's actually it's not Uh, 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.959 it doesn't even have Other studies have shown that it's 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.120 not linked to racial bias. It has nothing to do 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:43.040 with racism. It's um, we are brains aren't wired to 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.440 recognize people of other races easily. Um. So it's called 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:51.040 the other race effect, and uh, it's it's uh, it is. 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:56.480 It can be very problematic in UM court cases. So uh, yeah, 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.520 I can. I can imagine that is what you said. Yeah, 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.840 that's that's a lot. That makes it the number one 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:08.839 UM right for for wrongful convictions. Right. The second one, Josh, 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.480 is invalidated or improper forensic science, and that comes in 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.840 second at it played a role in fifty of the cases, 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.800 and that's basically sloppy work to a large degree. Well, 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.000 not just that. I was surprised that most of the 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:28.439 stuff you see on cs I hasn't been scientifically vetted 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:33.520 fully according to the Innocence Project. Right. Um, you've got 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.360 things like scerology, which is like blood typing or UM 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:42.480 semen sampling, that kind of stuff, fluid, sticky, gross stuff, right, Um, 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:48.319 that is vetted. That is hard science. But they're saying like, um, 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:57.880 firearm tool marks, like shoeprint comparison. Uh what else, um, 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.600 hair microscopy bite marks. Yeah, so all this stuff is 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.120 basically based on good guesses rather than a hard science, 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.160 which is one reason why the Innocence Project UM and 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.679 others rely so heavily on d n A. It's it's 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.960 cutting edges as it gets. It's the best we have 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:17.760 right now, and it's gotten way way better since it 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.280 even started. Uh, using DNA samples. So UM number three, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:27.920 buddy is false confessions and incriminating statements and about at 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.960 a time that's been a factor. And in thirty five 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.920 of the false confessions, the defendant was eighteen years or 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:39.520 younger and or developmentally disabled. Yeah, there's a kind of 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:43.720 a there's a famous case of UM. A woman named 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.600 Victoria Banks who was in prisoned for two years in Alabama. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.840 She UM was a mentally handicapped woman who confessed to 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.840 killing her newborn child. UM. The thing was, no one 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.720 had ever seen this child or seen her pregnant, and 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.600 she actually underwent a physical exam and they found that 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:07.320 she had her tubes tied at the time that she 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.200 supposedly was pregnant. She never had a kid, ergo, she 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.280 never could have killed her kid, and yet she was 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.720 still in prison for two years before she was exonerated 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:21.160 and released. Two years is that's pretty good for you know, 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:23.160 and you don't want to lose two years. But I 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.360 think what was the average? Yeah, the average amount of 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.080 time someone has been in prison and then released by 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.960 the Innocence Project is thirteen years, right, And I was 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.360 also that's something that I've always kind of wondered about, 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:39.200 but never got around to looking into why somebody would 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:43.360 make a false confession. I understand being mentally handicapped or 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.800 being under aging, either being badgered or misled by over 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:51.760 zealous cops forst basically like, look, just admit to it 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.480 and things are gonna go a lot more easily for you, 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.079 you know. But there's another factor that's involved. If you're 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.840 an indigent or poor um defendant and you don't have 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.360 money to make bail. When we did our bail podcast, 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.800 right um, if you don't have money to make bail, 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.080 you're sitting in jail until your court date. And if 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:14.760 your court date is six months from now, right right? Uh? 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.760 And they come to you with the plea deal and say, hey, 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.880 we'll let you out in three months if you if 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.560 you cop to doing this crime, which one are you 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.080 gonna do? Or cop to a lesser crime? Maybe sure 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:28.960 that you still didn't commit, right, So what are you 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.360 gonna do? Sit in jail for three months or six months? Well, 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.320 you're you're probably going to go for the three month things. 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:38.200 So that's a wrongful conviction right there too, based on 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:43.120 false testimony or false um confession. Well, and if you're 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.600 pouring indigent. You might not know all of your options. Um, 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.840 you might not be the most educated person in the world. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.120 And uh, you know you're between a rock and hard 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:57.960 place many times. So number four Joshua snitches snitches snitches. 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:03.280 Nine per scent of the cases involved dirty, rotten snitches. 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:08.200 And I say that because most times are many times 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.800 these snitches are flat out lying and they're trying to 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.360 get themselves out of trouble in some way. Um, as 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:24.600 was the case. And finally we've arrived in Brevard County, Chuck. Um. Yeah, 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:29.440 there's a guy named Um William Dylan and he was 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:34.840 I think like eighteen seventeen something like that. Um down 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.560 in Brevard County, Florida, lived down there. He was a 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.720 bit of a pothead. Uh, and he already had a 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.920 drug beef against him. Um, but nothing heavier than that 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.080 right now, I don't think so. Some guy named James 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.960 Dvorak uh winds up debt. He's found beaten to death 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:57.040 on the beach at Canova Beach, Florida, and um, the 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.720 cops are trying to figure out who did it. Well, 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.640 Bill Dylon happens to be sitting in his brother's car 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.840 hanging out smoking a joint with his brother, Um when 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.240 the cops come up and ask him what he's doing there, right, 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.360 And then they get a little suspicious when he knows 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.040 a little too much about this case, even though the 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.200 case has been all over the news for five days. 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.920 And for some reason, the the cops and the prosecutors 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:28.200 liked William Dillon for this murder, so they started basically 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:34.680 investigating him to make their case around his guilt. Yeah right, um. 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.480 And one of the things that they used was a 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:41.640 prison snitch, UM who said that on the night Dylan 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.120 was booked for this murder, he was in the holding 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:48.360 cell and Dylan said I totally did this and here's 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.480 how he did it right, And no one else witnessed 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.640 his confession. It was just that one guy and UM. 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:58.880 Coincidentally or not. After this trial Dylan's trial, the rape 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.320 charges against the SNI were dropped by prosecutors. Right twenty 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.920 seven years later, I think the same snitch came into 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:11.720 the courtroom for Dylan's exoneration trial or hearing and he said, 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.760 I made this up. I didn't make it up. I 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.400 was told to read this um by a cop, by 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.800 an investigator who gave me the story and I went 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.480 ahead and did it, and I'm very very sorry, right 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:29.320 but chuck, Uh, well, here's Paulson talking about it. She 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.879 covered the case there here she is. It gets it 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:38.480 gets even um more outrageous than that because another woman 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:43.840 who testified against Bill Dylan, who was his girlfriend, h 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:50.320 ended up admitting that she had had an appropriate relationship 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.040 with the lead investigator on the case and made it 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:57.520 clear that she testified against Bill Dylan because she thought 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.080 that a potential federal drug charge she was facing was 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.280 gonna get dropped, so in exchange for having this relationship 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:09.119 with the lead investigator, her charge would go away. And um, 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.400 and then you know when a sum total of four 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.359 or five witnesses testified and then recanted their testimony and 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.760 number of times as this woman did. So, Um, here's 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:26.480 this poor guy, you know, basically convicted on live lies. Indeed, Josh, 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:30.040 and you want to hear some more. The night of 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.199 the murder, Uh, there was a guy driving down the 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:38.399 road in Brevet County, Revard County, and he told investigators 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.240 that he picked up a hitchhiker and the hitchhiker was 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.480 wearing a bloody yellow T shirt that had the words 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.600 surfeit on it. He later told the investigators that the 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.320 guy was sweaty and had blood on his shirt and 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.920 blood smeared on his leg and shorts. He agreed anyway 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.000 to drive the hitchhiker to a tavern a barged three 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.360 miles away. And this is what's the most startling part 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:05.920 to me, believe it or not, In that three mile 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:10.679 journey the two men had, there was an oral sex 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.760 act committed between the two of them, between the guy 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.480 who just picked up the stranger and the stranger who 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:20.080 was covered in sweat and blood. Yeah. What undermines only 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:22.720 guy's credibility is the fact that he was blind in 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:28.240 one eye. Um, And he still picked William Dillon out 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.800 and said this is the guy, even though he described 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.320 the guy at first as having a mustache and meaning 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.199 six ft Bill Dillon didn't have a mustache and he 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:38.760 was six ft four. Yeah. And in fact it said, 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:40.520 which is I love this part too, It says he's 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.879 physically unable to grow a mustache. Yeah, which he's pretty 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.160 much just slammed dunk. As far as that I witnessed 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.719 testimony goes, still, that guy coupled with the prison snitch, 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.240 who really kind of shut the case. Um, and the 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:58.480 girlfriend who slept with the lead investigator. Uh. There was 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.720 one more big play year in this and he was 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:05.920 a guy named John Preston and he was a scent 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:10.000 dog handler and he and his dog har ass too. Yeah, 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.440 who has nothing on her ass one? Um he they 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.840 were on on um, they were on Bill Dylan like 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.840 White on Rice. Yeah. I always pictured him when I 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.240 was reading this as the dude from First Blood. Remember 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.520 the old guy with the dogs, go get him, Brian dunnahy, no, no, no, 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:30.240 the guy that brought the dogs, remember through the woods, 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:32.840 and he brought the dogs to chase after Rambo the colonel. 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.639 Huh No, he was a civilian. He's an old Cadra 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.840 that had some bloodhounds. John Rambo. Anyway, that's who reminded 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.400 me of. So he brings her ass too, and they 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:44.840 conduct a couple of tests, one of which, well we 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.600 should say real quick that while in the car after 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.480 the sex act, the guy I guess took his shirt off, 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.560 which oh yeah, you know, and uh leaves the shirt 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.479 and the guy in the guy's car that picked him up, 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:58.320 the guy realized that the shirts in there and just 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.040 throws it in the trash police come the next day 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.159 pick up the shirt from the trash. Right, which is 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.719 pivotal because we should probably just cut to the chase here. 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:12.040 Bill Dilon sentenced, He's convicted, sentenced to UM twenty six years, 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:17.960 right or more? He served twenty six years UM and 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:22.119 was he okay? So he serves twenty six years. In 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:27.400 that time, the fingernails, scrapings, UM, other kind of biological 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:32.280 samples are just completely destroyed, loss, thrown away. The only 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.840 thing remaining from this case, which was in nineteen e one, 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.159 long before any DNA testing was going on, UM, was 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:42.320 that T shirt. Thank God for Bill Dylan. Bill Dilon 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:47.879 starts representing himself per se UM and he's trying to 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:54.199 navigate the seeds of UH post conviction appeal UM, and 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.040 he keeps getting turned down because he's not following you know, 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.840 legal formalities that kind of stuff. UM. Finally the Innocence 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:05.640 Project heard about him because they had exonerated another guy 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:10.240 who had been convicted based on a prison snitch, fake 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.640 eyewitness testimony, and John Preston, the dog handler who turned 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.959 out to be UM. As the Arizona Supreme State Supreme 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:20.640 Court put it, a charlatan yeah. Well, can I say 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:22.080 real quick what the test was that he did with 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:24.200 the dog? Yeah? I can't believe they convicted a guy 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:28.160 based on this. He got harassed too, and they made 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.840 him sniff the T shirt and then they made him 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:35.040 sniff some paper that Bill Dylan had held in his hand, 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:38.240 and I guess harassed who reacted in such a way 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:42.520 where John Preston said, that's your man. Harassed two smelled 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:45.560 the two things and linked them. He was convicted on 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:50.040 a dog's sniff, which, again we should say partially dog 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:55.520 scent identification has never been proven, no and scientifically. And 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:58.480 later on when the dude called him a charlatan, they 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.960 did some testing and the dog failed. Her ass too, 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:05.960 failed all these tests and test. Yeah, because you know 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:08.880 he's got nothing against the guy, right and like I said, 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:12.480 he has nothing on her ass one. So Bill Dylan 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:16.119 sprung right, Um, because of the Innocence Project and because 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:18.400 of the T shirt. I don't want to steal Polzans 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:20.879 thunder Chuck, I assume you don't either, right. No, No, 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:23.639 let's let her take us home. On Bill Dylan. The 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.000 key piece of evidence that actually freed this man was 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:32.720 DNA evidence and miraculously, a T shirt that had been 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:37.520 worn the night of the murder by the alleged murderer. 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:43.080 Um was kept in a courtroom by some court reporter. Um. 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:46.560 This is long. You know, years ago they didn't do 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:48.840 DNA testing and she just happened to keep this piece 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:53.160 of evidence. Uh. William Dylan's attorneys were able to test 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:57.560 it and guess what it wasn't his blood on the shirt. UM. 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:00.600 So that that was the key part of overturning uh 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:04.200 this this murder conviction. But you know, once again, he 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:07.520 saw his countenance as he goes across the country telling 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:10.520 people the legal system work. I'm a freeman today. Well, 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:13.880 it worked been in his case, I would argue very 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:17.080 slowly and cost him twenty five years of adult living 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:21.480 that he could have enjoyed. That's unbelievable. I can't imagine 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:25.800 anything like that. So Chuck, you like to think that, Okay, 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:30.080 Bill Dylan, who by the way, um now gives lectures 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:33.000 on how the legal system actually works, or else he 0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:35.760 wouldn't have ever been sprang. Yeah, that's hard to believe. 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:41.800 He's not a better man, is on? Right? You? You 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:45.359 would like to think that this guy is you know, 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:50.639