1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: from House Stuff works dot com. This episode of Stuff 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: you Should Know is brought to you by Go to Meeting. 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: We all have to meet, but the average cost of 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: a single business trip is one thousand dollars. With just 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: one click, you can save time and money and have 8 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: your meetings online with affordable and easy to use Go 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: to Meeting. Use Go to Meeting for sales, presentations, product demos, 10 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: training sessions, collaborating on documents and more, and at forty 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: nine dollars per month for unlimited meetings, it saves time, money, 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: and travel. Try Go to Meeting free for thirty days. 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: Visit Go to Meeting dot com slash stuff. That's Go 14 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: to meeting dot com slash stuff. Hey and welcome to 15 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me as always as 16 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and our newest co star, Jerry Rowland. Yeah, 17 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: Jerry's been getting people like her more than us now, 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, can we just say that? Yeah? Yeah, Guatemala 19 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: debut there like she's getting married proposals, um. She has 20 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: been it's been suggested she should get her own Facebook 21 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: fan page, and she's taken to smacking me on the 22 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: bottom whenever I walk past her and she tells me 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: to go get her some coffee or something. Chief Yeah, 24 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: chief guy. Yeah, So it's weird. Jerry's kind of blown up. Yes, 25 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: it was hard to fit in this room with her 26 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: head in here. At the same time, I know it's 27 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: a little warm in here, isn't it. Yeah, it's hot, 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: So Chuck, Josh, Um, would you and I had a 29 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: rare opportunity recently, a perk, I guess you could say, 30 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: of working for Mother Discovery. Ure. Um, we spoke to 31 00:01:51,400 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: Ms Paula is On. Yes, uh, legendary broadcaster, journalist, newswoman, newsperson. Yeah, 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: and um. We were approached by our marketing people who said, hey, 33 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: you guys want to talk to Paula is On And 34 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: we said, of course, we want to talk to Paulazan. 35 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: When do you want to talk to Paulson? They're like, 36 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: you don't need to get all defensive and we're like, well, 37 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: would you And it just kind of went on like 38 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: that for a little while. Um, and then finally we 39 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: ended up on the phone with Paula is on and 40 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: just started talking to her. She's got a show on 41 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: UM Investigation Discovery I D for those of us who 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: work for Discovery, UM, and UH, it's called On the 43 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: Case with paul is on. It's on every Sunday at 44 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: ten pm. She'll she'll shill and UM. We we started 45 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: talking to her about true crime. Right, Yeah, it's pretty cool. 46 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: I mean we get interview UH setups like this. Sometimes 47 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: we were kind of like, I don't know about that, 48 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: but I'm way into courtroom drama and crime and really 49 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: a good hour long show like that. So I was 50 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: way way down with it, right and UM she started 51 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: talking about like, if you've gotten the impression that we 52 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: weren't really certain what we were going to do with 53 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: the interview, you were right. Um. But she started talking about, 54 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: UM this uh one case that she did an episode 55 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: on UM that the Innocence Projects factored into, and that 56 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: kind of rang a bell. But we started looking into it, 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: and UM we remembered that last October there was a 58 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 1: big kerfuffle about the Innocence Project UM out of Northwestern 59 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: University's Medill Journalism School UM and the I think the 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: Cook County UM chief prosecutor, maybe the state's attorney even stronger, 61 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: more potent UM wanted to subpoena all of the notes 62 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: and the grades of all the students on this case. 63 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: And it was just a big stinky deal. Yeah, because 64 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: the deal was as these were journalism students as opposed 65 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: to law students, So there was it's a bit of 66 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: a fine line there between. You know, journalists aren't supposed 67 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: to go up their sources telling these journalists they have 68 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: to student journalists they have to turn over all their information, 69 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: and so it's kind of a big deal as to 70 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: where the singing's upright, and uh, as far as I know, 71 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: it's gone kind of cold, right, Yeah, I think so. 72 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: But it was enough to spur our interest in UM 73 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: looking up the Innocence Project a little more and we realized, 74 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: ding ding ding, this is uh it, this is what 75 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: we're going to do it on. Yeah, this is just 76 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: a cool program. Yeah, I've heard of it before. Basically, 77 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: the Innocence Project, if you haven't heard of it is 78 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: they are those when you hear about a a murder 79 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: case where someone's been in prison for twenty years for 80 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: a murder care or rate case or doesn't really matter 81 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: what kind of case it is. As long as there 82 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: is DNA evidence that they can dig back up and 83 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: retest with modern methods, they can exonerate some uh you know, 84 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: an innocent person. Yeah, some mugs who have been in 85 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: jail for a long long time. And these are the 86 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: people that you see on the news that's like, yeah, 87 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: I was in jail for twenty eight years and now 88 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: I'm a freeman. And thanks to the Innocence Project right. Um. 89 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: The the group themselves, uh were It was founded by 90 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: a couple of guys named Barry C. Scheck and Peter J. Newfield. 91 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: He was on the o J team for a while. 92 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: Wud he Yeah, yeah, um, and uh they founded This 93 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: project is part of the Benjamin Cardoza School of Law 94 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: Yeshiva University. Right And basically what they do is poor people, 95 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: and by poor I mean both senses of the word 96 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: literally and figuratively. UM who have been incarcerated wrongly get 97 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: really top notch quality UM legal aid for free UM 98 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: from law students, mostly law students, but then in the 99 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: case of Northwestern University, it can also be journalisms to 100 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: UM who start pounding the pavement, interviewing old leads, coming 101 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: up with new ones trying to find the person who 102 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: actually did the crime. Yeah, it's based in DNA evidence, 103 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: but the students actually do a lot more investigating as 104 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: if it was just an open case. Yeah, and it's 105 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: not only DNA. It's pretty cool. Out of the d 106 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: n axoneration cases, there's been two hundred and fifty four 107 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: since the first one in But out of those two 108 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: fifty four, um in a hundred uh one hundred and 109 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: eleven of those cases, the actual perpetrator has been found 110 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: from the DNA investigation. Yeah, and that's something that Check 111 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: likes to point out. Obviously he's hanging his hat on that, right. 112 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: But the so you say, well, why do you need 113 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: a group of do good or Scooby Doo law school 114 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: kids to go do this? Uh? The reason why you 115 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: have to do is because you virtually need a law 116 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: degree or to be well on your way to earning 117 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: a law degree, to navigate the kind of um legal 118 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: waters it takes to file an innocence appeal, uh, post 119 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: conviction appeal saying I'm actually innocent and I need you 120 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: to go conduct some DNA tests that weren't conducted before 121 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: because my courter, pointed attorney was lazy, or because there 122 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: wasn't DNA testing before, or because a lot of the 123 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: original evidence was destroyed, which we'll get to, which happens 124 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: way more than I was comfortable with. Yeah. That I 125 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: think is the key takeaway for me from researching the 126 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: Innocence Project is that our legal system is fundamentally flawed 127 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways as right. Yeah, in more 128 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: than one way. You're absolutely right, as anybody who saw 129 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: them Tom Selick movie An Innocent Man knows. Cops aren't 130 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: always on the up and up. Yeah, a lot of 131 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: times you'll get it. I mean a lot of these 132 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: cases that we reviewed, and we're not knocking cops, believe me, 133 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: or detectives, but there's often a lot of pressure on 134 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: these high profile cases to find somebody, and if there's 135 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: some material evidence there or some eyewitnesses that may or 136 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: not be too credible, sometimes there's a little coercion. Sometimes 137 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: there's a snitch and all of a sudden you have 138 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: somebody that's going to prison for something they didn't do. Right. Um, 139 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: there was this a really big landmark deluge case um 140 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: out of the l A. P D. I think in 141 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: two thousand where one of the guys on this elite 142 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: crash unit. UM was busted with six pounds of stolen 143 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: cocaine that he was dealing. Yeah, and he started dropping 144 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: bombshells like nobody's business. He and other people on the 145 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: force UM have been shooting innocent people, in framing them 146 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: with guns, stealing drugs, dealing drugs, stealing money, framing people, 147 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: and as a result, between a hundred and a hundred 148 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: and fifty convicted felons were released. They had their their 149 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: convictions overturned because they've been framed. So it definitely happens. 150 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: It's not just in Los Angeles and it's not just 151 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: in Denzel Washington movies. Right, you kind of get the 152 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: idea that there's a systemic, kind of informal procedure for 153 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: railroading somebody that you are pretty sure it is guilty, 154 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: but you don't really have a slam dunk case. So 155 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: well that's the case, which we'll get to. Yeah. Remember 156 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: how like they found out that several people had been 157 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: convicted in the same manner after this guy, Yeah, which 158 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: is kind of chilling, like because you're seeing how the 159 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: investigators and the prosecutors down in Brevard County functioned in 160 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: like the early eighties. You know. Um, so, Chuck, let's 161 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: talk about how people um end up wrongfully convicted. Right, Yes, 162 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: there are many ways that this can happen, but here 163 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: are a few. Eye witnessed misidentification is a huge one. Um, 164 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: it was a factor. They've got some stats here, which 165 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: is awesome. It's uh, this kind of testimony has been 166 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: a factor in seventy of post conviction DNA exoneration. So 167 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: when they have let someone free with the Innocence Project 168 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: or you know, maybe not with the Innocence Project, at 169 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: a time, there has been misidentification. And one of the 170 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 1: big problems is uh involving race cross cross Racial identification 171 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: is usually the culprit, and they found in studies that 172 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: people are less able to recognize faces of a different 173 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: race than their own. Right. It's actually it's not Uh, 174 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: it doesn't even have Other studies have shown that it's 175 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: not linked to racial bias. It has nothing to do 176 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: with racism. It's um, we are brains aren't wired to 177 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: recognize people of other races easily. Um. So it's called 178 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: the other race effect, and uh, it's it's uh, it is. 179 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: It can be very problematic in UM court cases. So uh, yeah, 180 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: I can. I can imagine that is what you said. Yeah, 181 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: that's that's a lot. That makes it the number one 182 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: UM right for for wrongful convictions. Right. The second one, Josh, 183 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: is invalidated or improper forensic science, and that comes in 184 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: second at it played a role in fifty of the cases, 185 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: and that's basically sloppy work to a large degree. Well, 186 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: not just that. I was surprised that most of the 187 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 1: stuff you see on cs I hasn't been scientifically vetted 188 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: fully according to the Innocence Project. Right. Um, you've got 189 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: things like scerology, which is like blood typing or UM 190 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: semen sampling, that kind of stuff, fluid, sticky, gross stuff, right, Um, 191 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: that is vetted. That is hard science. But they're saying like, um, 192 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: firearm tool marks, like shoeprint comparison. Uh what else, um, 193 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: hair microscopy bite marks. Yeah, so all this stuff is 194 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: basically based on good guesses rather than a hard science, 195 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: which is one reason why the Innocence Project UM and 196 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: others rely so heavily on d n A. It's it's 197 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: cutting edges as it gets. It's the best we have 198 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: right now, and it's gotten way way better since it 199 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: even started. Uh, using DNA samples. So UM number three, 200 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: buddy is false confessions and incriminating statements and about at 201 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: a time that's been a factor. And in thirty five 202 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: of the false confessions, the defendant was eighteen years or 203 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: younger and or developmentally disabled. Yeah, there's a kind of 204 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: a there's a famous case of UM. A woman named 205 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: Victoria Banks who was in prisoned for two years in Alabama. 206 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: She UM was a mentally handicapped woman who confessed to 207 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: killing her newborn child. UM. The thing was, no one 208 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: had ever seen this child or seen her pregnant, and 209 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: she actually underwent a physical exam and they found that 210 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: she had her tubes tied at the time that she 211 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: supposedly was pregnant. She never had a kid, ergo, she 212 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: never could have killed her kid, and yet she was 213 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: still in prison for two years before she was exonerated 214 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: and released. Two years is that's pretty good for you know, 215 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: and you don't want to lose two years. But I 216 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: think what was the average? Yeah, the average amount of 217 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: time someone has been in prison and then released by 218 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: the Innocence Project is thirteen years, right, And I was 219 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: also that's something that I've always kind of wondered about, 220 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: but never got around to looking into why somebody would 221 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: make a false confession. I understand being mentally handicapped or 222 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: being under aging, either being badgered or misled by over 223 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: zealous cops forst basically like, look, just admit to it 224 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: and things are gonna go a lot more easily for you, 225 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: you know. But there's another factor that's involved. If you're 226 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: an indigent or poor um defendant and you don't have 227 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: money to make bail. When we did our bail podcast, 228 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: right um, if you don't have money to make bail, 229 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: you're sitting in jail until your court date. And if 230 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: your court date is six months from now, right right? Uh? 231 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: And they come to you with the plea deal and say, hey, 232 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: we'll let you out in three months if you if 233 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: you cop to doing this crime, which one are you 234 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: gonna do? Or cop to a lesser crime? Maybe sure 235 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: that you still didn't commit, right, So what are you 236 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: gonna do? Sit in jail for three months or six months? Well, 237 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: you're you're probably going to go for the three month things. 238 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: So that's a wrongful conviction right there too, based on 239 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: false testimony or false um confession. Well, and if you're 240 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: pouring indigent. You might not know all of your options. Um, 241 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: you might not be the most educated person in the world. 242 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: And uh, you know you're between a rock and hard 243 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: place many times. So number four Joshua snitches snitches snitches. 244 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: Nine per scent of the cases involved dirty, rotten snitches. 245 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: And I say that because most times are many times 246 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: these snitches are flat out lying and they're trying to 247 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: get themselves out of trouble in some way. Um, as 248 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: was the case. And finally we've arrived in Brevard County, Chuck. Um. Yeah, 249 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: there's a guy named Um William Dylan and he was 250 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: I think like eighteen seventeen something like that. Um down 251 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: in Brevard County, Florida, lived down there. He was a 252 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: bit of a pothead. Uh, and he already had a 253 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: drug beef against him. Um, but nothing heavier than that 254 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: right now, I don't think so. Some guy named James 255 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: Dvorak uh winds up debt. He's found beaten to death 256 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: on the beach at Canova Beach, Florida, and um, the 257 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: cops are trying to figure out who did it. Well, 258 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: Bill Dylon happens to be sitting in his brother's car 259 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: hanging out smoking a joint with his brother, Um when 260 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: the cops come up and ask him what he's doing there, right, 261 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: And then they get a little suspicious when he knows 262 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: a little too much about this case, even though the 263 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: case has been all over the news for five days. 264 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: And for some reason, the the cops and the prosecutors 265 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: liked William Dillon for this murder, so they started basically 266 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: investigating him to make their case around his guilt. Yeah right, um. 267 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: And one of the things that they used was a 268 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: prison snitch, UM who said that on the night Dylan 269 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: was booked for this murder, he was in the holding 270 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: cell and Dylan said I totally did this and here's 271 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: how he did it right, And no one else witnessed 272 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: his confession. It was just that one guy and UM. 273 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: Coincidentally or not. After this trial Dylan's trial, the rape 274 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: charges against the SNI were dropped by prosecutors. Right twenty 275 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: seven years later, I think the same snitch came into 276 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: the courtroom for Dylan's exoneration trial or hearing and he said, 277 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: I made this up. I didn't make it up. I 278 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: was told to read this um by a cop, by 279 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: an investigator who gave me the story and I went 280 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: ahead and did it, and I'm very very sorry, right 281 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: but chuck, Uh, well, here's Paulson talking about it. She 282 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: covered the case there here she is. It gets it 283 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: gets even um more outrageous than that because another woman 284 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: who testified against Bill Dylan, who was his girlfriend, h 285 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: ended up admitting that she had had an appropriate relationship 286 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: with the lead investigator on the case and made it 287 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: clear that she testified against Bill Dylan because she thought 288 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: that a potential federal drug charge she was facing was 289 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: gonna get dropped, so in exchange for having this relationship 290 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: with the lead investigator, her charge would go away. And um, 291 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: and then you know when a sum total of four 292 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: or five witnesses testified and then recanted their testimony and 293 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: number of times as this woman did. So, Um, here's 294 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: this poor guy, you know, basically convicted on live lies. Indeed, Josh, 295 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: and you want to hear some more. The night of 296 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: the murder, Uh, there was a guy driving down the 297 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: road in Brevet County, Revard County, and he told investigators 298 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: that he picked up a hitchhiker and the hitchhiker was 299 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: wearing a bloody yellow T shirt that had the words 300 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: surfeit on it. He later told the investigators that the 301 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: guy was sweaty and had blood on his shirt and 302 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: blood smeared on his leg and shorts. He agreed anyway 303 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: to drive the hitchhiker to a tavern a barged three 304 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: miles away. And this is what's the most startling part 305 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: to me, believe it or not, In that three mile 306 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: journey the two men had, there was an oral sex 307 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: act committed between the two of them, between the guy 308 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: who just picked up the stranger and the stranger who 309 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: was covered in sweat and blood. Yeah. What undermines only 310 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: guy's credibility is the fact that he was blind in 311 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: one eye. Um, And he still picked William Dillon out 312 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: and said this is the guy, even though he described 313 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: the guy at first as having a mustache and meaning 314 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: six ft Bill Dillon didn't have a mustache and he 315 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: was six ft four. Yeah. And in fact it said, 316 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: which is I love this part too, It says he's 317 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: physically unable to grow a mustache. Yeah, which he's pretty 318 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: much just slammed dunk. As far as that I witnessed 319 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 1: testimony goes, still, that guy coupled with the prison snitch, 320 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: who really kind of shut the case. Um, and the 321 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: girlfriend who slept with the lead investigator. Uh. There was 322 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: one more big play year in this and he was 323 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: a guy named John Preston and he was a scent 324 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: dog handler and he and his dog har ass too. Yeah, 325 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: who has nothing on her ass one? Um he they 326 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: were on on um, they were on Bill Dylan like 327 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: White on Rice. Yeah. I always pictured him when I 328 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: was reading this as the dude from First Blood. Remember 329 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: the old guy with the dogs, go get him, Brian dunnahy, no, no, no, 330 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: the guy that brought the dogs, remember through the woods, 331 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: and he brought the dogs to chase after Rambo the colonel. 332 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: Huh No, he was a civilian. He's an old Cadra 333 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: that had some bloodhounds. John Rambo. Anyway, that's who reminded 334 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: me of. So he brings her ass too, and they 335 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: conduct a couple of tests, one of which, well we 336 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: should say real quick that while in the car after 337 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: the sex act, the guy I guess took his shirt off, 338 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: which oh yeah, you know, and uh leaves the shirt 339 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,479 Speaker 1: and the guy in the guy's car that picked him up, 340 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: the guy realized that the shirts in there and just 341 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: throws it in the trash police come the next day 342 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: pick up the shirt from the trash. Right, which is 343 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 1: pivotal because we should probably just cut to the chase here. 344 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: Bill Dilon sentenced, He's convicted, sentenced to UM twenty six years, 345 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: right or more? He served twenty six years UM and 346 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: was he okay? So he serves twenty six years. In 347 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: that time, the fingernails, scrapings, UM, other kind of biological 348 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: samples are just completely destroyed, loss, thrown away. The only 349 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: thing remaining from this case, which was in nineteen e one, 350 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: long before any DNA testing was going on, UM, was 351 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: that T shirt. Thank God for Bill Dylan. Bill Dilon 352 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: starts representing himself per se UM and he's trying to 353 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: navigate the seeds of UH post conviction appeal UM, and 354 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: he keeps getting turned down because he's not following you know, 355 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: legal formalities that kind of stuff. UM. Finally the Innocence 356 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: Project heard about him because they had exonerated another guy 357 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: who had been convicted based on a prison snitch, fake 358 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: eyewitness testimony, and John Preston, the dog handler who turned 359 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: out to be UM. As the Arizona Supreme State Supreme 360 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: Court put it, a charlatan yeah. Well, can I say 361 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: real quick what the test was that he did with 362 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: the dog? Yeah? I can't believe they convicted a guy 363 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: based on this. He got harassed too, and they made 364 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: him sniff the T shirt and then they made him 365 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: sniff some paper that Bill Dylan had held in his hand, 366 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: and I guess harassed who reacted in such a way 367 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: where John Preston said, that's your man. Harassed two smelled 368 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: the two things and linked them. He was convicted on 369 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: a dog's sniff, which, again we should say partially dog 370 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: scent identification has never been proven, no and scientifically. And 371 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: later on when the dude called him a charlatan, they 372 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: did some testing and the dog failed. Her ass too, 373 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: failed all these tests and test. Yeah, because you know 374 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: he's got nothing against the guy, right and like I said, 375 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: he has nothing on her ass one. So Bill Dylan 376 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: sprung right, Um, because of the Innocence Project and because 377 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: of the T shirt. I don't want to steal Polzans 378 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: thunder Chuck, I assume you don't either, right. No, No, 379 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: let's let her take us home. On Bill Dylan. The 380 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: key piece of evidence that actually freed this man was 381 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: DNA evidence and miraculously, a T shirt that had been 382 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: worn the night of the murder by the alleged murderer. 383 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: Um was kept in a courtroom by some court reporter. Um. 384 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: This is long. You know, years ago they didn't do 385 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: DNA testing and she just happened to keep this piece 386 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: of evidence. Uh. William Dylan's attorneys were able to test 387 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: it and guess what it wasn't his blood on the shirt. UM. 388 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: So that that was the key part of overturning uh 389 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: this this murder conviction. But you know, once again, he 390 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: saw his countenance as he goes across the country telling 391 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: people the legal system work. I'm a freeman today. Well, 392 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: it worked been in his case, I would argue very 393 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: slowly and cost him twenty five years of adult living 394 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: that he could have enjoyed. That's unbelievable. I can't imagine 395 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: anything like that. So Chuck, you like to think that, Okay, 396 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: Bill Dylan, who by the way, um now gives lectures 397 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: on how the legal system actually works, or else he 398 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't have ever been sprang. Yeah, that's hard to believe. 399 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: He's not a better man, is on? Right? You? You 400 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: would like to think that this guy is you know, 401 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: a very he represents a very rare case. The evidence 402 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: is that that's not true, that there's actually a lot 403 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: of people in jail who are actually innocent. Right, Yeah, 404 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: I've got a few stats just from what the Innocence 405 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: Project has done thus far. Uh, there have been two 406 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty four you might have said this post 407 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: conviction exonerations thanks to DNA in thirty four states. Um, 408 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: Seventeen of those actually we're on death row or had 409 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: served time on death row. Yeah. One guy came with 410 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: him five days of being executed. Actually, that's crazy, could 411 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: you imagine? No? No, Uh, two of the cases closed 412 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: by the Innocence Project, we're closed because of lost or 413 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: missing evidence. So these people might be innocent too, but 414 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: there's nothing they can do about it because the evidence 415 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: was destroyed. Um. The the Innocence Projects d DNA exonerations, 416 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 1: it's not the only way you can be exonerated. No, right. Um. 417 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: I read a study, uh that was written in two 418 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: thousand four, and it was about exonerations from I think, 419 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: uh to two thousand three. And Um. The author of 420 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: his paper was saying that there that death row inmates 421 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: in two thousand one hit a peak in the us 422 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: representing one quarter of one percent of the entire prison population. Right, 423 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: but death row inmates represented of the total exonerations for 424 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: the fifteen years prior from four. Okay, So what this 425 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: guy was saying was, Okay, there's two ways of looking 426 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: at it. Number one, that death row inmates death row 427 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: cases are actually more likely of being um wrongly imprisoned 428 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: because of the pressure to catch somebody for a horrible 429 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: crime and kind of thing. And he's saying that's probably 430 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: correct to an extent. But he's saying the other hand, 431 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: is probably correct as well, and that there aren't necessarily 432 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: more death row inmates who are wrongfully imprisoned then in 433 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: the general prison population. If that's true, right, that of 434 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: the total population of exonerations that's true, then between Night 435 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: nine in two thousand four, there should have been twenty 436 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: eight thousand, five hundred non death row exonerations rather than 437 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: two ye so potentially that many people are are rotting 438 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: in prison right now, and thousands of people unbelievable. Another 439 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: thing to dude is the Innocence Project is part of 440 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: the larger innocence movement altogether, which is fifty nine affiliated 441 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: law schools and programs that work with US and UH. 442 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: A guy in Texas, David dow As a as a 443 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: law professor at the University of Houston, and he's seen 444 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: that in the last five years there, actually, he says, 445 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: way fewer death cases and prosecutors are asking for death 446 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: less and less because of the work of the Innocence 447 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,239 Speaker 1: Project and juries know about some of these exonerations. So 448 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: he thinks beyond the exonerations that people are starting to 449 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: become a little more careful and what they're trying to 450 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: prosecute here, and well they should. I mean, we're talking 451 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: about people's lives, you know, absolutely, let alone being incarcerated 452 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: for a couple of decades. YEA. How they decide is 453 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 1: they get thousands of letters from inmates that are sitting 454 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: in prison that you know, say that they're innocent, and 455 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: they say they range. The letters range from really formal 456 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: and well written to one that came in in two 457 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 1: thousand that said, simply, I am not the man who 458 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: did this rape. All I want is to go home. 459 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: He couldn't even like spell, and he did go home. 460 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: His name was Ricky Johnson and a goal of prison 461 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: in Louisiana, and he was freed thanks to the Innocence 462 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: Project and DNA. So they have basically a bunch of volunteers, uh, 463 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: including a high school teacher and a c l U veteran, 464 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: former journalists and a poet who plow through these letters 465 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: that they get and determined try and determine if they merit. 466 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: And they don't do it on whether or not their 467 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: heartstrings are pulled. They do it on whether or not 468 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: there's actual DNA evidence still out there that they can 469 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: work with, because if not, they're kind of, you know, 470 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: fighting a larger battle. The problem is there's only UM 471 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: only about half of all of the states have UM 472 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: laws in place that that say you have to preserve 473 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: evidence after a conviction. Right, in most cases, a conviction 474 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: is made and it gets thrown the evidence gets thrown 475 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: away or most of it does. Uh. And there's also 476 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: even in states where you have to preserve evidence, either 477 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: there's a statute of limitations where you're basically are just like, okay, 478 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: it's been five years and the we we can throw 479 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: it out and make room for more evidence, or there's 480 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: no kind of penalty or UM I guess punishment for 481 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: somebody who does throw away or destroy evidence from a case. Yeah, 482 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: they passed. Didn't Congress pass something on that? Yeah, but 483 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: it's called the uh the Justice for All Acts, the 484 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: most metallica of all the acts. It was passing two 485 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: thousand and four, and basically, UM it offers financial incentives 486 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: to states that have programs where UM evidence is is maintained, 487 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: and then they withhold money, uh from from states they 488 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: don't have these programs. So it's a pretty flimsy carrot 489 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: and stick when you're talking about something as important as 490 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: wrongful incarceration. You know, I've always thought that the metallica thing. 491 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: I always saw the Ride the Lightning Act was the 492 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: most metallica. It's it's close. Yeah, so uh innocence projects 493 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: huh Yeah, I think I had one more interesting note here. 494 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: That's right, Uh, Barry Scheck, he is what he really 495 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: wants the feather in his cap out of this. Eventually 496 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: he wants to prove that a person has wrongly been 497 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: put to death after the fact clearly. Oh, I'm sure 498 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,479 Speaker 1: he'll eventually be able to do that. And he's not 499 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: done that yet. He came close a couple of times, 500 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: but it has not yet happened. Yeah, and Chuck, look 501 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 1: for a podcast from us on Capitol Hounishment sometime. We're 502 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: gonna get into that. Yeah, man, So there's tons more 503 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: on the Innocence Project, Like we're just this is just 504 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: scratching the surface. They actually have a database of every 505 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: single um DNA exoneration case person um. You can read 506 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: about them, you can read about the work they're doing. Uh, 507 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: it's just really interesting valuable stuff. Right. You can also 508 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: watch the um Bill Dylan episode of On the Case 509 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: with Paula is on on the Investigation Discovery website. Right one. 510 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: I went and checked it out. It's from season two. 511 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: It's called Killing and Canova Beach. Uh. If you go 512 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: to uh investigation dot discovery dot com and search Canova 513 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: Beach and in their handy search bar, it'll bring it 514 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: up and you can watch it. And it's pretty cool. Yeah, 515 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: and thanks to Paula's on for class in this turkey 516 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: up a little bit. Seriously, this episode of stuff you 517 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: should know. It's brought to you by go to Meeting 518 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: the Affordable way to meet with clients and colleagues for 519 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: your free thirty day trial. Does it go to meeting 520 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: dot com slash stuff. So chuck listener, Man, Josh, I'm 521 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: gonna call this brightening days for our listeners and taking names. 522 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: This comes to us from Becca, and Becca is a 523 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: Facebook regular. She's cool, cool lady, h Hi, Josh and 524 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry. Of course, she says, you know those 525 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: days when everything you touch think seges utterly and spectacularly wrong. Yes, 526 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: that was my day to day. Here wass Becca's day. 527 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: She gives a short version here the highlights. I woke 528 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: up as awoken awakened at two am by the teenage 529 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: son of the friends that I'm currently staying with to 530 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: save on rent because I'm sleeping on a couch where 531 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: his friends need to crash. I'm not sure I get that, 532 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: but when is she's sleeping on a couch? Interesting? Since 533 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: I had gone to bed in my own room, Apparently 534 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: I started sleepwalking again because I woke up on the couch. 535 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: Get yeah. I managed to make about four and seventy 536 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: two stupid mistakes at work while also being slided, ignored, 537 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: and or flat out insulted through email and Facebook throughout 538 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: the day. Hopefully not no, no. Then I was off 539 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: for my hour long drive to work to go to 540 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: a nursing home until ten pm. She works at a 541 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: nursing home, so she can get her nursing assistance license. Well. 542 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: After five hours of being pooped on their figuratively and literally, 543 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,479 Speaker 1: I was finally the last student to finish my rounds 544 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: as everyone had to wait for me. Was quick to 545 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: point out that is having a bad day. Yeah, that's 546 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: a day. At that point, I was totally wrecked. Didn't 547 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: even make it out of the building before I burst 548 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: into tears. Hour and a half drive ahead of me, 549 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: I could barely see through the tears, and I was 550 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: beating myself up for fear that I made a huge 551 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: mistake by quitting my teaching job and changing careers. As 552 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: I just happened to grab my iPod. You see where 553 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: this is going. No, not if we made her feel 554 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: worse than this is gonna be most pressing email lever. 555 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: By the time I was finished with how midnight Regulations work, 556 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: I was actually laughing at your discussion on the number 557 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: of syllables in squirrel squirrel. Remember that one syllable squirrel squirrel. 558 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: If you're from up North, it's squirrel, two syllables. Apparently, 559 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: if you're Woody Allen, it's two syllable. Yeah he's from 560 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: up North, New York. I can honestly say, I can't 561 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 1: think of anything else that would have redeemed my otherwise 562 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 1: crappy day. Thanks for making me laugh, guys for giving 563 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: me something to do while I wait to put my 564 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 1: scrubs in the dryer so I can do it all 565 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: over again tomorrow from Rebecca. Thanks for writing in. Becca. 566 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: At the very least, you're quite a go getter, so 567 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: that's fantastic and we're glad we could turn that day around. Yeah, 568 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: leaving her job as a teacher to work in a 569 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: nursing home, so it's like she's covered either way on 570 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: the good Samaritan front very much. So. If you have 571 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,399 Speaker 1: an email about a band day, chuck or a good day, 572 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: well that's a good one too. If you have an 573 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: email about the greatest day of your life, send it 574 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: to us. We want to read it. Uh, you can 575 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,399 Speaker 1: wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send 576 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: it along on its way to stuff podcast at how 577 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands 578 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: of other topics, visit how stuff works dot com. Want 579 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: more how stuff works, check out our blogs on the 580 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com home page. Brought to you 581 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: by the Reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready. Are 582 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: you