WEBVTT - Bonus: The View from Musk Watch 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:05.880 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:08.559 Let me tell you we have a new star. 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:11.360 A star is born Elon. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:13.720 Up On, Mars, Juth and Kennemy. 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:17.200 He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus. 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:17.520 Of our age. 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.080 Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.200 I feel for the guy. I would say ninety eight 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.360 percent really appreciate what he deesk. 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.760 But those two percent that are nasty, they I'll pay 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:30.600 in four post. We were meant for great things in 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.519 the United States of America, and Elon reminds us of 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:38.600 that we don't have a fourth branch of governments called Elon. 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:49.040 Musk Hi everyone Sarah Fryar here. The day of Donald 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:53.720 Trump's inauguration, jud legoom launched a publication called musk Watch, 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.120 an offshoot of a successful newsletter, Popular Information. This caught 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:00.720 my eye because we had Elon Inc. Made similar bet 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.440 that the most powerful person in the world was getting 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:07.320 more powerful and deserved deeper discussion long term. I wanted 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:09.200 to invite Judd to talk about why he made a 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.600 decision and what he has learned so far. Jud has 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.840 had a clear perspective in his work critical of Mustage, 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.440 but he backs up those opinions with exclusive data and 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.479 scoops that make his newsletter worthy of reading no matter 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.840 what you think about Musk. So, without further ado, here's 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.640 the interview with jud for the record in these fast 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:29.279 moving times. 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:30.600 It was reported last. 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:37.160 Friday, jud Legoom, thank you so much for being here 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:38.120 with us today. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:39.720 Well, thanks for having me. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.959 The thing that strikes me as a challenge for something 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.119 like musk Watch, which you launched, I think in right 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:47.960 around inauguration correct. 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.160 Yeah, the inauguration day is why not launch. 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.880 An inauguration day this was this is an opportunity to 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.720 have this macro view of the richest man in the 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.680 world slashing US buyd. We initially thought it might be 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.520 like an advisory committee to the President, but then it 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.480 turned into something that was just so embedded with every 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.680 US agency and you've been getting a lot of very 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:16.440 detailed inside scoops. But then you also have the big picture. 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.360 How can you possibly keep track of everything happening at 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:24.000 all of these different agencies and come to a conclusion 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.400 of the through line here, like what's actually happening? 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:27.280 How do we keep track? 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:29.760 It's difficult. 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.519 I think it's difficult because we've never had one person 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:40.560 with this combination of extreme wealth and political power married together. 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:42.919 I did some reading of some other folks who you 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.280 might throw into that conversation, like a John D. Rockefeller, 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.240 who was very wealthy, maybe almost as wealthy as Musks 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.079 now if you adjusted all for inflation, and he had 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.079 political influence, but he wasn't embedded in the way. He 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.320 didn't have an office in the White House, he wasn't 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.840 going through individual department's figuring it out what he wanted 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.639 to keep and what he didn't. It's really unprecedented, and 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:09.960 I think, how do you keep up with it? I 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.480 don't think you can. It's a matter of figuring out 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:18.680 what are the key important parts, what are the things 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.920 that are most consequential. And that's really been our task 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:23.160 with Musk Watch as well. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:24.000 We're not gonna be able to. 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:28.639 Get to everything, but we're trying to isolate the things 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.760 that really are having the biggest impact. 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.280 It feels like that's part of the strategy, is to 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:39.560 do so much at once that it becomes difficult for 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.560 folks to do much more than say, you know, I 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.600 want to figure out what's even happening before I know 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.120 how to react to it. How do you think this 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.640 is feeling from a strategy perspective for a Musk, why 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:53.040 is he going about it this way? 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.000 Well, you can see part of it if you look 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.120 at how the lawsuits progress. Obviously there's a number of lawsuits, 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.360 dozens of laws suits that have been filed, many of 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:06.640 which involve, if not Musk personally, than DOGE, and often 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:12.200 they are acting more rapidly than the legal system can 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.520 keep up with. So, for instance, there's challenges based on 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.839 the fact that the DOGE operatives were not part of 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:25.279 various departments and so therefore their actions within this departments 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:26.839 were illegal. 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:28.280 Then there's been a. 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.200 Reason filing says, oh, actually, now they're all part of 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.400 the departments. We've signed them up and they're all a 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.520 bit assigned and are now officially a part of it. 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:37.000 So you see that playing out. 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.279 I do think that is part of the strategy, and 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.760 I do also think it matches up both with Musk's 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:49.039 business career, which is just work as fast as possible 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.039 to make the biggest changes you can. You know, if 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:53.600 you look at what he did at Tesla, if you 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.760 look at what he did with SpaceX, takes these big risks. 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.920 You know, SpaceX almost went bankrupt Tesla almost bankrupt, but 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.960 you just push as fast and as hard as possible, 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.920 take these big risks, and it's worked out for him. 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.920 I think what we're seeing now is government is fundamentally different. 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:14.279 The capitalist system is set. 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.440 Up to reward these big risks for a Tesla, for 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.520 a SpaceX, but people, I think have less of an 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.919 appetite for a big risk with social security or the 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.080 school system or all these other things that the government 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.840 deals with. And that's really what we're sorting through right now. 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.040 If you are a lay person, if you're just a 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.560 regular maybe even a fan of Elon Musk has watched 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.320 him for years. He said, listen, everyone said it was 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.640 chaos what he was doing at Twitter. Everyone said it 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:45.160 was chaos what he was doing at Tesla, in SpaceX 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:48.080 and all of these companies that he's touched. It has 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:52.240 gone through this sort of painful period or continues to 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.480 go through painful periods, and then came out the other side, 0:05:56.240 --> 0:06:01.279 enriching Elon Musks and his companies and leading to some 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.000 positive endgame. 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:03.479 Right. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.680 So, is there out of the cocoon emerging as a 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:11.560 butterfly moment for the US government or does it just 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:13.760 keep getting more chaotic. 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.279 I think you could imagine theoretically at working well. I 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.239 think it's undeniably true that there is waste and fraud 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:26.680 embedded in the federal government. In fact, the Inspectors Generals, 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.200 which Trump got rid of shortly after getting into office, 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.040 have uncovered a lot of that in their reports. They 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:34.960 don't necessarily get rid of it, but they say, we've 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:39.000 tracked this, and these payments are fraudulent. And you could 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:43.160 imagine someone like Musk doing a good job of figuring 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.880 out where those things are through technical knowledge or something 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:53.080 like that. I think that the key differentiator between what 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.159 must did at a Tesla or a SpaceX is he 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:02.400 was working with people who knew about space exploration and 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.839 knew about rockets and knew about cars, and he was 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:12.320 adding his intensity to that process and risk taking, his 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.040 appetite for risk taking to that process, and they came 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.040 out with a good result, at least for a period 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:18.440 of time. 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:20.920 I think DBD on both of those companies. 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:26.320 But here he's just taken the same people who know 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:31.280 about space exploration and he's dropped them into the Social 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.800 Security Department or the Department of Energy or the EPA, 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.640 and in many cases he's not even putting in his experts. 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:47.000 He's finding these very i'll say charitably early career software 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:51.240 people who have shown I think little interest or even 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.640 curiosity about how the government works, dropping them into these 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.840 agencies and just sort of letting them run wild, also 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:03.160 pairing it with sort of this kind of paranoid fantasy 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.000 about what's happening in a lot of these places, and 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:10.600 having that drive a lot of the activity. I think fundamentally, 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:15.240 what we're seeing is much more destructive rather than something 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:16.520 that has a lot of potential. 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:23.240 How is your opinion of Elon Musk changed during this 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:24.120 Doge process? 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.840 I think fundamentally, I'm skeptical of anyone with power, so 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.000 that's how I came into it. That's good when you're 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:34.880 writing working as a journalist. But I do think that 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:40.080 he is different than a businessman like Trump because he 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:45.120 does have real accomplishments. Tesla did fundamentally change the electric 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:50.240 car industry and mainstreamed a lot of electric cars. SpaceX 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.080 did a lot of things making space exploration cheaper and 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:58.880 more efficient, So these are real accomplishments. I think that 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:05.680 what has surprised me, or at least to the extent 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.880 that it's happened, is just how reckless he's willing to 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:16.240 be in this new position, and how deeply ingrained this 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:22.640 idea of power maximization Elon has in all of his activities. 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.160 And I think that's where he and Trump really see 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.319 eye to eye, is that they are both trying to 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:32.959 maximize their power and they're willing to cross over the line. 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.440 The way they figure out where the line is is 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.360 by crossing over it and then seeing what happens. 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.640 So I think recklessness is actually not a part of 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.760 it that surprises me at all. We've seen recklessness be 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.920 kind of a recipe for transformation at all of his companies, 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:53.360 at X, at Tesla, as we've talked about like getting 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:57.439 rid of the unnecessary rules, at least in Elon Musk's mind, 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.559 what rules are unnecessary for change to happen more quickly. 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.920 What's surprising here to me is like, this is an 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.520 Elon's money, this is our money, this is taxpayer money 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:16.040 that's being appropriated by this one person. The usual process 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:19.920 obviously go through Congress, Like that's just the part of 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.199 it where you would expect to see some legal resistance, 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.080 but it's been kind of piecemeal. We haven't seen like 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.040 a broad fight back at all. 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:30.839 Why not. 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.080 There has been a good amount of legal resistance, just 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.640 in the sense of a lot of lawsuits have been filed. 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:44.280 But I think that fundamentally Trump has handed elon the 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:46.640 keys to the whole government. 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.040 That was something I did not anticipate. 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:54.719 He's unilaterally making these cuts. What you've seen is some 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:59.480 of these judges will issue a temporary restraining order, which 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.199 is basically the quickest kind of order that they can issue, 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.400 saying you can't implement this policy. 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.679 You can't just cut off all of the funding. 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.560 For nih for example, because you've decided you don't like 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.560 DEI like, that's not something you can do. And then 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.160 what you've seen the reaction to be is just make 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.520 a little tweak or do something else like cut off 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.920 every single government credit card to have the same impact 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.320 as the first thing, and then it cycles back to 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.000 court and then they issue a new temporary strating order 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:37.840 and then another little change happens. So it's very difficult 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.280 as long as Trump is willing to let him do 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.560 what he wants in each of these agencies, for the 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.760 legal system to keep up with it. So I think 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.240 that is the dynamic that's at play, and also the 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:56.640 other entity that could do something potentially is you could 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.960 have Congress step in and sit and try to raise 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.480 him in more and essentially empowered these judges more to 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:08.120 make quicker decisions and create clearer legal lines about what 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:11.599 is appropriate and what is inappropriate. 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:13.240 And that's not happening either. 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.520 I feel like that's such a huge challenges or reporters, 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.600 like you're writing these things Doge is doing. This does 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.880 is cutting off that and you of course need to 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.040 include in the story the context that this is the 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.320 law doesn't allow those to do this, but the structure 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.160 of the government as it currently stands, and the way 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:33.360 Trump has allowed Doge access, you know, it's kind of 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.679 making it happen anyway. I find that to be a 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.760 challenge in like writing about this, the certainty that we 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.520 need to have about like, you know, what Trump says 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.960 is happening, what's actually happening, and then whether legally it 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.240 can happen, or whether they have the authority to do 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.840 what they say they're doing. Even just Trump saying that 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:57.400 he will label vandalism of Tesla's domestic terrorism, like is 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:58.720 there going to be EO on that? 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:00.000 In Executive order. 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.920 Are we going to see a law change to that 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.160 respect because Trump doesn't really. 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.240 Have the authority to declare that for maybe he does. 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.200 Here's something I also think that's going on as we 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.120 go through this process. This is extraordinary process that I 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.600 don't think we've ever seen before, is that the law 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:23.720 is the law, but it's not self enforcing, and ultimately 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:24.520 the courts are there. 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:26.679 Lawyer, I just want to I just want to let 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:28.240 our listeners there, you are, you are, you have a 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:29.040 lot of grade, go. 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:29.600 To law school. 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:34.079 Yeah, for better or for worse. But it's not self enforcing. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.679 And I think that the courts, especially their best position 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:43.920 to constrain this. But if they issue an order, they 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:48.200 are going to be extremely reluctant to come to the 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:53.720 conclusion that the executive branch is violating their order because 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.240 once they once they say that, what are they going 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.720 to do? What is the recourse that they have? The 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:06.160 whole system is premised on everyone respecting everyone's role, and 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.720 when the court issues the order, the expectation is that's 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.240 taken seriously and the executive branch follows it. They follow 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.120 the purpose of the order, not just saying, oh yeah, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.520 we technically recognize this order and now we're going to 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:21.960 do the same thing, just in a slightly different way, 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:23.960 which is a lot of what we're seeing right now. 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:26.560 So then that puts the Court in a really difficult 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.520 position because they don't want to put a spotlight on 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.000 the fact that they have not their authority is now 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.600 being ignored because. 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:36.680 Where does that leave the court? 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:37.160 Right? 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.280 Where does that leave the whole system? So that's really 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.120 the dance that's going on there. 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.400 And then we're seeing from Musk, from Vans, from a 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:47.560 lot of the folks involved, like all of us, talk 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:53.440 of court reform, judicial reform, How bad slash complicated could 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.520 things get from here? In terms of this dance between 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.080 the executive branch the legislature of the courts, I. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.840 Would say it's already very bad. I think it's very bad. 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.600 And the authority of the courts, whether they want to 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:08.920 admit it or not, is being eroded. 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.120 If you want to take a slightly more positive view. 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.560 When the one issue that has gotten all the way 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.960 to the Supreme Court, we're likely to see several more 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.680 make it there. The Court did end up and they 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:23.680 may not do this next time. But for this particular 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:28.200 instance involving USAID and funding that had been already approved. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.320 It was all the way over there and then cut off. 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.480 They said, well, you do have to fund that, and 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.600 a couple of the conservatives went over with the three 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:39.800 liberals and formed the majority there. And it does appear 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.720 that the Trump administration said we're going to listen to 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.480 that and release that very limited amount of funding. So 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:51.440 maybe that's a line that they will draw. But even so, 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.440 it's not supposed to be that you only respect the 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.480 Supreme Court. Most cases don't even get to the Supreme Court. 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.040 They take a very small number of cases, and we're 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:03.760 in a position where the authority of the courts is 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:05.440 deeply in question. 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.200 And I hear from people every day at these ages. 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.000 I've talked to more people who worked. 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.520 At the federal government between January twentieth today that I 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:16.440 think I have in my whole career writing until then. 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.800 And things are happening and I can't even write about 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.200 them all. But things are happening every day that appear 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.760 to violate these orders, and there's just very little that 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.680 could be done. A lot of it isn't even getting 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:31.120 out there. 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.520 I mean, even as a journalist, there's very little that 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:37.240 you feel you can do given the amount of violation. 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.560 You're saying, yes exactly. When you go through these things, 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:42.440 you can't just take one person's word for it. If 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.280 someone's telling you something, you've got to then go to 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.200 your other sources see if they can confirm that, or 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.120 find somebody else who knows about that. So it's a 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.440 whole process and you have to figure out what's significant. 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.160 But the kinds of things that are happening, I would 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:59.040 say there's really very little deference being. 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.280 Shown to the what consequences do you think there should 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:08.560 realistically be for what's happening, this erosion of the court's authority, 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:14.040 the getting a legal order and then kind of editing 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.760 their approach but doing the same thing that the court's 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.560 objected to. Where do we end up a few months 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:22.800 years down the road. 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.040 I think that there are things that the courts could do. 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.720 They could hold someone in contempt of court. They could 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.760 hold a cabinet secretary or an assistant secretary in contempt 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.720 of court for not following their orders. I don't think 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.879 many judges are going to haul off Trump appointees to jail. 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:43.240 Like I just don't think they're in the business of 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:43.760 doing that. 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:49.480 So I think that there's two directions. Either the Trump 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:53.600 administration will push this to a certain line but then decide, well, 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.439 if it gets to the Supreme Court, or maybe if 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.320 it gets to the Appeals Court, we're going to follow 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:59.760 those decisions. We'll just keep challenging them into one of 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:04.679 these courts say so, or they just do whatever they 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:10.000 would like to do and you have a complete breakdown 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:14.000 of the constitutional system of government. 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:19.080 But I think that's I think that that is definitely 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:20.280 on the table. 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.600 Complete breakdown of the constitution is on the table. 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.120 Okay, yeah, I'm not going to say that we're we're there, 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.960 but that's the process. That's the dance that we're involved 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.800 in now. Elon Musk is testing the limits, seeing how 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:35.520 far he can go. And once that limit is clearly 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.600 defined by the court and the dance is over, will 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:42.399 they then say, Okay, we understand now where the limit 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.159 is and back off, or will they just continue pushing ahead. 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.199 And that's the thing that we'll find out over the 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.280 next I don't know how long it's going to play out, 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.400 six months, a year, two years, but that's what's playing out. 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:57.760 I even wonder how long Musk can afford to keep 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.399 running this the way he's running it, it sounds like 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.520 he's starting to have tension with Trump's cabinet. He's starting 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.679 to have big consequences for his businesses. And in the 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:12.199 beginning of this process, one of our big questions that 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:16.359 we had was, is this whole relationship with Trump something 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.680 that's going to enriched Musk and his companies or hurt them? 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.960 Right the foundation of his wealth, everything he's built to 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:30.959 this point. Does Tesla benefit from Trump selling cars on 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:35.199 the White House lawn or is that a stain on 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:40.040 their brand down the line. It's so interesting to see 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.359 this push and pull not just between the executive branch 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.840 and the other branches the government, but between Elon Musk 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:48.880 and his legacy. 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.040 Is this his legacy? Is that his legacy? 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.480 And if you look at places like Germany where Tesla 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:59.040 sales are down because following Musk's support of the fire 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:03.040 right there, we could see people start to treat Musk's 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:07.920 companies as extensions of the US government and vice versa, 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.240 or use them to appeal to Trump. That's the other 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.399 option is that he could be given a lot personally 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.560 just because he is a representative of the US government. 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.480 Yeah, I mean, I think once you get to the 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.680 point where you're selling cars at the White House, that's 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.240 not a good sign. The value of Tesla and how 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:29.919 must become the richest person in the world is not 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:33.240 because people think that another car company, even a car 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.000 company that only sells electric cars, is that valuable. It's 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.080 based on the idea that this is just the beginning, 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:43.400 and he's going to launch into this whole new world 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:49.040 of autonomous vehicles and the robots, the humanoid robots that 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.520 are going to be our company. Yeah, Butler's or whatever 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:55.879 is going to happen next. That's where the value is. 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.400 So but I think one thing that is the problem 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.320 is that right now he doesn't sell any of those things, 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.280 and it's a public company. So if your car sales 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.120 are dropping, you know, seventy five percent in Germany and 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:11.919 fifty percent in other places in Europe and forty percent 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.080 in California and all these major drops, are you even 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:17.920 going to get to the point where you can develop 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.720 those autonomous vehicles and robots and things like that. I 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:24.560 think that's a that's a big question market so far, 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.200 I think it has not been nearly as beneficial as 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:29.960 most people thought. Certainly the market gave him a big 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:32.080 bump as soon as Trump got elected, and he went 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:33.840 up and up, and then they were thinking they saw 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:36.960 maybe this isn't working out as well. We are seeing 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:41.160 some things where the ways in which Musk, and we've 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.080 done quite a bit of a reporting on this, can leverage. 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.480 His position to help his businesses. 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:51.280 So you've seen Musk use the White House complex meet 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.480 with the Prime Minister of India and then finally they 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.520 get in and Starlink now has the means to operate 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.920 in India. We've seen Musk push into the FAA with Starlink. 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:07.639 We've seed Musk push to get the International Space Station decommissioned, 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:10.960 maybe a year or two early, so that he can 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:15.840 start using SpaceX to service the commercial space stations that 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.840 will replace the International Space stations early and generate more 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:22.720 revenue this way. So how does that balance out? You're 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:26.840 selling less cars, maybe you're having more rocket launches and 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:31.199 selling more Starlink terminals. I don't know, you that's definitely 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:32.520 outside of my expertise. 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.119 I guess the big question is, like, is you just 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:43.320