1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. This week we talked about 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 1: the Princes in the Tower. Uh. I think I have 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: said before that I find episodes on Royals where everyone 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: has the same name and there's just a bunch of intrigue. 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 1: I just I find them to be very frustrating. But 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: I chose to do the Princess in the Tower because 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: somehow in my head I thought there would be less 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: of that and that I would get to focus more 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: on the princes. And that was incorrect. Uh. Instead, there 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 1: was a lot of intrigue and only four names in 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: use in the entire episode. There's Richard and Edward and 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: Henry and Elizabeth, and that's pretty much all I got 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: to work on. And boy did I just mess up 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: Edward and Richard in the outline a bunch of times. 17 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: Writing this episode took a full day and a half 18 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: longer than it should have, and I had a really 19 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: hard time, I know, for a lot of people myself 20 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:20,839 Speaker 1: included living through a pandemic and also multiple other intersecting 21 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: social and political and climate crises has made it really 22 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: hard to concentrate. So when I was not done with 23 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: this episode in time to record it on the day 24 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: we were planning to record it, I was really like, 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: is this pandemic brain? Or is it just that there 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: is too much Edward and Richard and it's taking me 27 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: too much time to hopefully correctly sort through it all. 28 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: It can also be a layering of all those things 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: that sure could. Every time we do an episode like this, 30 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: I once again thank my lucky stars that I am 31 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: not part of any royal family that might have such intrigues, 32 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: because who wants that life hoof Nope, not me. There 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: were a lot of different sources that went into this episode, 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: but there were two books in particular that were like 35 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: the actual whole book length books. One that seemed to 36 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: me written clearly from this perspective of someone who thought, um, 37 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: Richard the Third definitely did not do it, and the 38 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: tone of it was almost angry that anyone would ever 39 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: believe that Richard the Third had done it, Like it 40 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: would have these passages in it. This was by Dr 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: John ash Downhill, but it would have these passages in 42 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: it that were like and this was totally normal medieval 43 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: precedent and anyone who thinks otherwise does not know anything 44 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: about medieval precedent. And I was like, WHOA, Okay, I 45 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: should have also another book just to balance out the perspective. 46 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: And so the other book was just called The Princess 47 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: and Tower and it was by Alison Weir, and uh, 48 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: that one took a more neutral perspective, but also acknowledged like, 49 00:02:57,840 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people now and we're a 50 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: lot of people at the time that thought that Richard 51 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: the Third stole the throne. And a thing that's still 52 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: kind of like stuck in the back of my head 53 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: about that one is like, I, as a forty six 54 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: year old adult human being, have lived through multiple incidents 55 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: in world history where everyone thought something was happening and 56 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: that's not what was happening. So I don't really know 57 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: that everyone thought Richard the Third did it necessarily means 58 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: that Richard the Third did it. And after having picked 59 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: through all this stuff, I don't know that I really 60 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: knew what the real answer is. There is just a 61 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: whole lot of circumstantial evidence though, that Richard the Third 62 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: really did take the throne from his nephew. Yeah, I 63 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: mean that's the thing, right. I feel like with stories 64 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: like this, where people do get very attached to it, 65 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: it becomes a matter of faith, and like, I believe this, 66 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: here is my here's how I substantiate that belief. But 67 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: like you said, we're ever gonna know. There's no there's 68 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: no certainty, particularly because there is so little that we 69 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: know about what was going on in the tower at all. Um. 70 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: There's just really I mean, listen the second I say, 71 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: we're never going to see it seeing on Earth at 72 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: the end of the year, but they literally found Richard 73 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: the Third's remains under that car park, right, So you 74 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: never ever know, But it does seem like, you know, 75 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: thoughts get longer every day. Yeah, yeah, And I should 76 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: also note that they're like there are two different questions, 77 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: one being did Richard the Third you surp his nephew, right? 78 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: And the other being did Richard the Third order his 79 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: nephew to be murdered? And those are like two different 80 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: but interconnecting questions. Also, we're not putting it into the 81 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: feed as a Saturday Classic for various reasons, but there 82 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: is an episode, a full episode about Richard the Third 83 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: in the archive. It's one of the first episodes that you, 84 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: Holly were ever on. Uh and it is from when 85 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: they found the remains under the car park. Yes, um, 86 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: that talks a lot more about Richard the Third and 87 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: how a lot of what was written about him during 88 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: the Tutor era makes him increasingly evil, seeming and physically 89 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: grotesque from those writer's point of view, which makes it 90 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: hard to then sweet out what seems like factually correct 91 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: versus what seems more like trying to make the Tutors 92 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: look like they were definitely the correct people to be 93 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: on the throne. Well, and that's the thing too, right, 94 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: There is a level of unconscious bias even in measured 95 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: and well researched histories. So even people that aren't necessarily 96 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: even aware that they're positioning things based on a presumption, 97 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: whether that be conscious or subconscious of guilt or innocence 98 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: or question marks, will still inform that text as they 99 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: write it. So it makes a whole other layer of 100 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: untangle ability because it's somebody else's psychology that they may 101 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: or may not even be aware is impacting their work. 102 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:20,119 Speaker 1: So yeah, unless the time machine gets built in a hurry, 103 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,559 Speaker 1: we're not gonna know we go back there. Yeah, Yeah, 104 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that would be where I went. No, 105 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: probably not for me, although I do love, you know, 106 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: other not so much about the royalty things about like 107 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: that era of history, but you know, it's probably not 108 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: the first place that I would go. UM. I am 109 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: glad that we did an episode on the Princess in 110 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: the Tower because now it's done and I don't have 111 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: to do it in the future. That's perfectly valid takeaway 112 00:06:53,680 --> 00:07:05,119 Speaker 1: in my book. This week on the show, we talked 113 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: about Olivia Ward Bush Banks, which is the name I 114 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: stumbled across and had never heard it before and immediately 115 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: was like, I want to know more about this person 116 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: who has this combination of like social worker and teacher 117 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: and speaker and activist and tribal historian for the Montacket Nation, 118 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: all of that. UM, and I really had concerns about 119 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: whether I was going to be able to find enough 120 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: information about her. I do not know how many feet 121 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: of documents are in the library at Tulane, But pulling 122 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: together the information UM for the the episode took a 123 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: lot of digging and reading PhD theses, which are not 124 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: you know, I don't normally spend a lot of time 125 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: reading PhD dissertations for the show. That's just not typically 126 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: one of the sources of information, but it was this time, 127 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: and little did you know that you were stumbling onto 128 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: a super angry making thing. Yeah, I the whole part 129 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: about the Montaucket Nation's land being stolen and then the 130 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: New York Legislature passing legislation about it three times and 131 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: Cuomo vetoing it three times. Uh, if we swore on 132 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: the podcast, that part would have been all swearing. Um. 133 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:36,839 Speaker 1: I did not find his rationales for vetoing the legislation 134 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: to be acceptable. What were they? Well, one of them 135 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: was something along the lines of I haven't really reviewed 136 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: it yet, and I was like, well, then review it. 137 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: That's literally your job. And one of the one of 138 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: the vetos at one point it was sort of referred 139 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: to the I guess the New York State Department, because 140 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: there are genuinely complicated issues that that go on in 141 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: the relationship between states and sovereign indigenous nations and the 142 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: federal government and indigenous nations, and like some of those 143 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: things require some sorting out. But it really seemed like 144 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: he just kind of passed the book on that and 145 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: then it didn't go anywhere after that, which is why 146 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: it then was reintroduced as additional legislation. I was doing 147 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: the thing where I like recap my my spouse on 148 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: on what I'm talking, what I'm researching on the podcast. 149 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: We were walking to the farmers market and I was 150 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: telling him this whole saga about about the you know, 151 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: the dividing up of the land and the coercing people 152 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: off of it, and he said, skipped to the end. 153 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: Did they get their recognition back? And I was like no, 154 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: and um, what he yelled on the street was also 155 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: something we could not put on our podcast. Um, so yeah, 156 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: he said, well now that quota was not governor anymore, 157 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: like well things changed, And I was like, I honestly 158 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 1: don't know, Like I'm not very that all about New 159 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: York state politics beyond what I read researching this show 160 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: about this issue. I don't So I don't know. Bills 161 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: do sometimes get referred to committee and they kind of 162 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: get kind of stuck there in pretty much all legislatures 163 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: in the US. So it's like a question marks at 164 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: this point, right, frustrating question marks. I also don't think 165 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: I said this in the episode, but Olivia word bush 166 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: Bank's great granddaughter, who's the person who UH compiled and 167 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: edited the collection of her work that was put out 168 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: in UM also an enrolled an enrolled member of the 169 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: Montacket Nation. So this is clearly something that is still 170 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: affecting a lot of people living today. UM. And greater 171 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: questions and conversations about people who have both indigenous and 172 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 1: black ancestry continue to affect people in multiple different indigenous 173 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: nations all over the Need States. And there's a whole 174 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: long history about that, a lot of it very complicated. 175 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's continuing to be relevant today. A thing 176 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: I did not expect when I got into this episode, 177 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: because it did not come up in any of the 178 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: brief little biographies that I saw about Olivia Ward Bush 179 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: Banks was the efforts to get the film Birth of 180 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: a Nation taken out of theaters in Boston. UM totally 181 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: unaware that that had been part of her work at all. 182 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: But this was a huge movement all over the United States. 183 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: And while I am sure there were some white people 184 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: who also argued that the film should not be shown, 185 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: in large part the like white communities supported it and 186 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: communities of color were like, this has got to stop, 187 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: Like this is gonna hard to harm people, UM, which 188 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: then turned out to be absolutely true. Yeah, if folks 189 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: are interested in more more of Olivia Word bush Bank's work, 190 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: that book that came out in is from the Chamberg 191 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: Library of nineteenth Century Black Women Writers. It can be 192 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: a little tricky to find because it came out thirty 193 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: years ago, but it does have all of her work 194 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: in there, and uh and discussion about that work. I 195 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: didn't I was not actually aware of this particular collection, 196 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: like this particular collection specifically of black women writers. But 197 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: there are a lot of books in that collection, a 198 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: lot of stuff that that was put out basically to 199 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: to fill a hole in published knowledge. And as I 200 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: was just skimming through the other books that are part 201 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: of it, some of them are ones that are totally expected. 202 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: Like the first book on this list is Phillis sweet 203 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: Lee Collected Works of Phillis sweet Lee, Right, I would 204 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: expect that to be. They're also stuff by so Journer 205 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: Truth and Mary C. Cole and Elizabeth Keckley. So a 206 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: lot of books by names that I recognize, but also 207 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: some like names that I've never heard of before. And 208 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: so I kind of want to dig up a lot 209 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: more of these women and see what I can find. 210 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: Out about their lives and their work. Um, because some 211 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: of them were just not not nearly as familiar to me. 212 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: That sounds like a good plan. Yeah, um. Eliza Potter, 213 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: a hairdresser's experience in high life. I'm all over it. 214 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm intrigued. So if you'd like to write to us 215 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: about this or any other podcast or history podcast, I 216 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: heart radio dot com and alub social media miss in history. 217 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: It's Friday. Hope everybody has an amazing weekend whatever is 218 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: on your plate, and we'll be back with an episode 219 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: from a Saturday classic tomorrow and then on Monday with 220 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: a brand new show. Stuff You Missed in History Class 221 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 222 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 223 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.