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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of this show.

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Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: news media, and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk here about Zoron, Mom, Donnie and the New

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Speaker 2: York Times, because this is an interesting story. So before

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Speaker 2: we jump into the New York Times piece, we have

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Speaker 2: to get a little bit of Steve Bannon's take on

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Speaker 2: zoron so Much Bannon in today's show, So Much Bannon,

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Speaker 2: And by the way, I do want to just say,

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Speaker 2: like Bannon has taken a lot of L's so I

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Speaker 2: don't want to overstate his importance, but I just I

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Speaker 2: always think it's interesting to hear his thoughts because he

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Speaker 2: does have a better grasp I think of the political

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Speaker 2: moment that many others.

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Speaker 3: Let me just say anecdotally, someone who was recently on

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Speaker 3: Warroom told me like after they went on war Room,

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Speaker 3: immediately they had I think like within a couple of minutes,

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Speaker 3: one hundred.

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Speaker 4: Plus new followers on X.

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Speaker 3: And so Bannon has like, you know, it's still true

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Speaker 3: that your average X user is exceptional from the average

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Speaker 3: American because not most people are on Twitter, and most

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Speaker 3: people aren't watching, aren't watching, most people are not watching

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Speaker 3: Steep Bannon. But he does actually have a really I

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Speaker 3: think strong tether to the mega base itself. I think

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Speaker 3: the like hardcore Maga bandon still sets the tone for them.

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Speaker 3: That is not a majority of the American public, but

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Speaker 3: it's a small group that he does have a lot

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Speaker 3: of sway with and listens to him every day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean usually what he uses his way

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Speaker 2: for is, yeah, he'll protest in advance about let's say

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Speaker 2: Medicaid cuts, or about the tax cuts for the right

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Speaker 2: Trump decides, or about Elon, and then once Trump decides

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Speaker 2: and does whatever, then Bannon's role becomes explaining to the

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Speaker 2: magabase why actually this is fine and why you have

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Speaker 2: to trust the plan and why, oh, well, he must

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Speaker 2: have attacked Aroun because he had more intelligence than we did.

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Speaker 2: We just have to trust this guy, so that is

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Speaker 2: actually the role that he starts. Nevertheless, his analysis of

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Speaker 2: Zoran Hundani was a lot more interesting and intelligent than

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Speaker 2: the people who were claiming that he's going to implement

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Speaker 2: sharreal law in Manhattan. Let's go ahead and take a

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Speaker 2: listen to a little bit of what he had to say.

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Speaker 5: That's one of the most sophisticated races, and he focused

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Speaker 5: on affordability and he addressed their issues. Now his response,

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Speaker 5: he took the anger of the moment of populism and

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Speaker 5: got engaged with people. Cuomo ran a traditional thing. This

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Speaker 5: kid ran a very sophisticated campaign, a very sophisticated campaign

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Speaker 5: on the grassroots.

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Speaker 2: And we can put the next piece up on the screen.

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Speaker 2: I mean. He talked also about how the messaging was intelligent.

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Speaker 2: He said that Mumdannie's diagnosis of New York's affordability crisis

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Speaker 2: sounds quite similar to Bannon's description of America's to seem

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Speaker 2: to agree on seventy percent panitas fifty percent, but that's

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Speaker 2: still a lot. Politics today is all about authenticity. Mam

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Speaker 2: Donnie's campaign was today's equivalent of Barack Obamas. He's walking

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Speaker 2: down grocery aisles, chatting on TikTok. He accepted every interview requests,

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Speaker 2: relied on grassroots organizing, kuomba name recognition. His campaign raised

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Speaker 2: almost forty million dollars, secured Bill Clint's endorsement. His appearances

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Speaker 2: were curated. The traditional Democratic Party is dead. I wish

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Speaker 2: that were true, Mom Donnie, blew it up. I wish

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Speaker 2: that were true. Do you share the conservative view that

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Speaker 2: an unabashed socialist and support of the Palestinian cause is

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Speaker 2: a gift to Trump? Bannon shakes his head. You shed

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Speaker 2: more tears for answered prayers than unanswered prayers. Who replies,

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Speaker 2: Mam Donnie can bring people out. Populism is the future

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Speaker 2: of politics. So he sees him as basically like And

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Speaker 2: I do think that I don't want to understate actually

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Speaker 2: the significance of Mum Donnie's victory because being able to

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Speaker 2: run as an unabashed anti zionist in New York City

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Speaker 2: and when is an earthquake and you have a huge

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Speaker 2: schism in the Democratic between the democratic base and Democratic elites.

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Speaker 2: I do not think that most people vote on gaza.

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Speaker 2: But I do think that Gaza is becoming a litmus

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Speaker 2: test issue for the Democratic base, which says to people,

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Speaker 2: does this person have a shred of integrity? Are they

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Speaker 2: willing to stand up against you know, political forces or

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Speaker 2: you know, well organized, well funded forces and actually fight

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Speaker 2: for something. And it is the sort of schism between

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Speaker 2: the base and the elite of the party that you know,

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Speaker 2: it's the sort of thing that Trump actually exploited in

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Speaker 2: his twenty sixteen victory, and I think there is going

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Speaker 2: to be a real reckoning with that in twenty twenty eight.

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Speaker 2: Not to mention, of course, the economic pieces that everyone

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Speaker 2: is like, you know, melting down on the grocery stores

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Speaker 2: and the rent freeze, et cetera, and the overt embrace

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Speaker 2: of like, yes, I'm a democratic socialist and that's just

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Speaker 2: who I am, and I'm not running away from it whatsoever. No.

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Speaker 3: I think that's right, and I think what Bannon is recognizing.

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Speaker 3: And again, like I've seen an interesting discourse on the

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Speaker 3: right about Mom Donnie since he won. Because you noticed

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Speaker 3: that Bannon was talking to Marjorie Taylor Green, who posted

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Speaker 3: the initial hilarious meme of the statue of liberty and

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Speaker 3: what like a full burku. Yeah, and there's been there

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Speaker 3: was this like initial reflex to just be completely grossed

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Speaker 3: out picked out by mom Donnie, that people like Bannon

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Speaker 3: started to I think, change a bit. And you've seen

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Speaker 3: It's not like it's the whole right is embracing Mom Donnie.

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Speaker 3: But you've seen this interesting strain, and I think it's

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Speaker 3: probably in part due to new media, this interesting strain

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Speaker 3: of people being like, whoa, look at what he did

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Speaker 3: with young voters and millennials in New York City, having like,

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Speaker 3: we have this information right in front of us. That's

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Speaker 3: like a pretty clear sign that he was speaking to something.

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Speaker 3: And it's just a not only a smart observation by Bannon.

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Speaker 4: But I don't think it's an easy one to make

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Speaker 4: right now.

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Speaker 3: He can make it because he's sort of seen this

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Speaker 3: like a godfather like figure, but not an easy point

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Speaker 3: to make at all.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's talk about the New York Times. So

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Speaker 2: they published this big scoop that they apparently raced the

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Speaker 2: process because they wanted to beat Chris Rufoy, who was

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Speaker 2: also chasing down the same story. To put this up

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Speaker 2: on the screen. They reveal exclusively that mom. Donnie identified

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Speaker 2: as both Asian and African American on his college application

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Speaker 2: to Columbia. Specifically, they says he doesn't consider himself black,

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Speaker 2: but he said the application did not allow for the

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Speaker 2: complexity of his background. They included the specific you know

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Speaker 2: form and how he checked the box showing these are

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Speaker 2: the questions be opposed to applicants about race and ethnicity

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Speaker 2: during the two thousand and nine twenty ten application cycle

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Speaker 2: when he applied and he indicated he was both black

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Speaker 2: or African American and Asian. Okay, Now a little quick

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Speaker 2: refresher on his backgrounds here. He was born in Uganda.

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Speaker 2: He was in his family had been in Uganda for generations.

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Speaker 2: There were a bunch of Indian laborers who brought were

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Speaker 2: brought over by the British in the early eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 2: to do basically like you know, slave labor in Uganda,

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Speaker 2: indentured servitor in Uganda, and it became this thriving diaspora

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Speaker 2: community that ends up being actually quite successful within Yugana.

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Speaker 2: And so his family is part of that history. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: he's also South Asian, being you know, ethnically from the

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Speaker 2: Indian subcontinent. So he marks these two boxes and they

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Speaker 2: are acting like this is sort of a giant scandal.

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Speaker 2: There were three reporters put on it. One of them

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Speaker 2: was a health reporter, by the way, at a time

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Speaker 2: when people are like losing Medicare and the hospitals or

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Speaker 2: rural hospitals are under attack, and this is what they're

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Speaker 2: focused on. In addition, you may ask yourself, well, how

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Speaker 2: did they how did they come upon this information? Emily,

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Speaker 2: where did they Where did they get us from? And

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Speaker 2: we can put C three up on the screen. They

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Speaker 2: got it from this guy who posts as CRIMEA. He

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Speaker 2: runs a sub stack. He's also very prominent on X.

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Speaker 4: Your French is beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Christ Oh, thank you very much, Mercy. He focuses a

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Speaker 2: lot Emily on race and IQ quote unquote academic who

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Speaker 2: focuses a lot on race and IQ prominently feature posts there.

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Speaker 2: Seeks to defend the argument that average national IQs very

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Speaker 2: by up to forty points, with countries in Europe and

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Speaker 2: North America and East Asia at the high end, countries

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Speaker 2: in the Global South at the low end, and several

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Speaker 2: African countries reportedly having average national IQs at a level

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Speaker 2: that experts associate with mental impairments. So basically, he's your

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Speaker 2: sort of average Twitter racist that got a hold of

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Speaker 2: these hacked documents from Colombia. Now, listen, I am not

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Speaker 2: against news organizations using hacked material, even if it comes

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Speaker 2: from a sketchy source. But you know who has been

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Speaker 2: against that in the past. That would be the New

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Speaker 2: York Times, who refused to report on, for example, the

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Speaker 2: Iranian hacks of Trump campaign documents, including the jd Vance dossier,

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Speaker 2: and refused to publish it in part apparently because of

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Speaker 2: the source of those hacks. In addition, when they first

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Speaker 2: put out this report, they really glossed over who this guy.

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Speaker 2: They called him like an academic who's opposed affirmative action,

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Speaker 2: when in reality, he's just like a brazen racist that

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Speaker 2: you know, posts like your average Twitter racist posts.

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Speaker 4: Ultimately, I didn't go back and look at his feed.

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Speaker 4: Is it bad?

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Speaker 2: It's exactly what you expect.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So it's also, I mean, this whole story, we tease

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Speaker 3: this at the beginning of the shows, so many layers

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Speaker 3: to peel back, the first of which is like, I

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Speaker 3: don't I think it's pretty clear that mom Nannie was

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Speaker 3: playing by the rules that we as a society set

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Speaker 3: for college applications.

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Speaker 4: For a very long time, correct now, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if we're if you're, if you're going to

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Speaker 3: do and say all of these different identities are important

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Speaker 3: and material to whether or not you belong academically at Colombia.

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Speaker 3: I would probably disagree with the system like that. At

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Speaker 3: the same time, that is the system that existed. What's

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Speaker 3: actually somewhat remarkable, crystals that with all of that, he

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Speaker 3: didn't get into Colombia. Apparently he's like, you couldn't come

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Speaker 3: up with like a bigger parody of like affirmative action

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Speaker 3: system on paper.

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Speaker 4: Right than the NANNI.

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Speaker 2: Application, being like, well, the Asian part might have killed.

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Speaker 4: Him, that's right, Maybe he should have left that off.

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Speaker 2: So this is really about that than that, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's what he said, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's reasonable, And I also think it's reasonable, say, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, he was putting what he thought would be

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Speaker 2: beneficial for him on a cool application, as one does.

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Speaker 2: But I think when he he was like, these boxes

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Speaker 2: don't really fit my identity, and I think that's fair.

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Speaker 2: His identity is complex. He talks about it a lot.

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Speaker 2: It's something his you know, his dad is a professor

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Speaker 2: of these sorts of things, and they clearly thought deeply

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Speaker 2: about it, so I also don't think it was casually done.

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Speaker 2: He sees himself as like he is from Uganda, his

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Speaker 2: family is from Uganda for multiple generations as he also right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but he you know also is you know, has this

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Speaker 2: Indian ethnic heritage, so to check both those boxes, like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not really sure how else he should have filled

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Speaker 2: out that for him.

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Speaker 3: I completely agree, and I think it's the problem. I

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Speaker 3: mean so from my position on this, and I bet

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Speaker 3: it would have been Rufo's position on this, I think

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Speaker 3: it exposes sort of the absurdities of the critical theory

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Speaker 3: that mom Dannie and his father actually wax poetic about

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Speaker 3: and believe really deeply in. At the same time, he

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Speaker 3: has a much stronger claim to both of these heritages

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Speaker 3: than somebody like and use this as a proxy. I

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Speaker 3: know it's cringy, but Elizabeth Warren, who many such cases, like,

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Speaker 3: she's an example of something that's happened for decades in

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Speaker 3: college admissions, and I just think it all like exposes

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Speaker 3: the absurdity of this and how immaterial and silly that

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Speaker 3: it can be to insist that by checking off these boxes.

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Speaker 3: You know a significant amount about the person based on it,

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Speaker 3: and you can make a determination as to whether they

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Speaker 3: belong at your school. I mean, I think it's all

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Speaker 3: just absurd, But The New York Times doesn't believe what

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Speaker 3: I believe.

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Speaker 4: It's funny.

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Speaker 3: It's just an incredibly funny anecdote, or not even an anecdote,

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Speaker 3: like an experiment in them having to it's because it's

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Speaker 3: the Ramm Dannie. The New York Times has decided that

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Speaker 3: they're going to apply a very critical lens.

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Speaker 2: You might say they're waging a jihad against him in

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Speaker 2: the language of Kirsten Chillibrands. Let me, I want to

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Speaker 2: jump to Curtis Lee.

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Speaker 3: Why here?

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Speaker 2: Who is the Republican nominee for you know in this race?

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Speaker 2: And by the way, there's so much billionaire pressure on him.

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Speaker 2: Bill Ackman is going to to try to get Leewah

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Speaker 2: out of this race so that Eric Adams or Andrew Kuoma.

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Speaker 2: I guess who did he get behind Adams or Quoma

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Speaker 2: I forgot anyway one of them can consolidate and ride

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Speaker 2: to victory overs or on Mom Donnie. In any case,

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Speaker 2: Leewa gets asked about this on Fox News and I'm

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Speaker 2: sure Fox News was expecting him to attack Zoron over this,

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Speaker 2: and he did not. He chose not to do that.

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Speaker 2: So let's go and take a listen to C seven.

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Speaker 6: I do know he is a practicing Muslim, and I've

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Speaker 6: advised our colleagues, which there on many on our side

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Speaker 6: of this issue, because we know Zoran will destroy this city,

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Speaker 6: do not attack his religion. Leave the religion alone. If

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Speaker 6: you don't want to see him elected. There are a

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Speaker 6: million Muslims in New York City who can vote, many

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Speaker 6: of them with conservative values, many of them who voted

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Speaker 6: for Donald Trump for president.

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Speaker 7: So he credit that background in the center of his campaign.

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Speaker 6: Right, you can criticize him as being a communist, socialist,

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Speaker 6: anti semi check, but leave the religion alone. Now, he

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Speaker 6: would consider himself Southeast Asian, although he's of Indian heritage.

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Speaker 6: His mother and father he grew up in Uganda. So

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Speaker 6: I guess you could sort of put it in the blender.

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Speaker 6: I don't have a problem with how he shall f

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Speaker 6: identify it.

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Speaker 2: Put it in a blender. Emily. That is to me also,

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Speaker 2: such a New York response. You know, and I mean,

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Speaker 2: you say a lot of things about Chris Leewa, who

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Speaker 2: I used to be on a bunch of Fox panels with.

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Speaker 2: I told you so, I've met him a few times

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Speaker 2: in real life. But he is a New Yorker hm,

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Speaker 2: and so he's looking at this, He's like, don't attack

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Speaker 2: him because he's a Musliman because of his identity, Like

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Speaker 2: you want to go after him, you know, talk about

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Speaker 2: his policies and whatever. But yeah, he's from Ugandha, he's Muslim,

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Speaker 2: he's Indian, and he's all those things. Put him in

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Speaker 2: the blender. However he self identifies whatever. Who cares? How

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Speaker 2: is this really the issue?

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Speaker 3: Producer Mac went viral for posting that video, and Sake

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Speaker 3: Sleiwa just outwoke to The New York Times.

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Speaker 4: Yeah it's true, buddy.

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Speaker 2: I mean it is a point in favor of the

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Speaker 2: like racist the social construct.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a point in favor of that, absolutely, And

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Speaker 3: I have always taken that as being a point in

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Speaker 3: favor of not using it as such material of such

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Speaker 3: material importance in certain processes like affirmative action, for example.

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Speaker 4: But we don't necessarily have to have that debate.

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Speaker 2: Is just funny, No, I mean I don't actually disagree

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Speaker 2: with you on that let's go and put let's see.

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Speaker 2: I think the New York Times response is C five

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Speaker 2: because they clearly their common section was furious with them.

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Speaker 2: They took a lot of heat over this because we

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Speaker 2: think about this. They used hack documents from a quote

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Speaker 2: unquote race realist to rush out this piece. They were

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Speaker 2: apparently rushed it out because they were trying to beat

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Speaker 2: Chris Rufo to the punch, like what are you doing?

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Speaker 2: In any case, This is one of the reporters, Patrick Keely,

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Speaker 2: talking about why they did and this is so funny.

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Speaker 2: He says, sometimes sources have their own motives or obtain

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Speaker 2: information using means we wouldn't like Trump's taxes, WikiLeaks or

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Speaker 2: Edward Snowden. It's important to share what we can about sourcing.

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Speaker 2: We always independently assess newsworthiness. Okay, you are comparing this

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Speaker 2: to WikiLeaks exposure of work crimes or Edward Snowden's exposure

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Speaker 2: of mass surveillance. That's what Zoron's Columbia application race selection.

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Speaker 2: You're comparing that to WikiLeaks. And again, just to reiterate,

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Speaker 2: it would be great if the New York Times had

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Speaker 2: a consistent standard here.

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Speaker 1: They do not.

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Speaker 2: They do not, So what is the standard ultimately, because

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Speaker 2: apparently sometimes it matters whether it's hacked and who it

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Speaker 2: comes from. And sometimes when they just you know, want

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Speaker 2: to go after a particular candidate, then it doesn't matter,

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Speaker 2: and they're happy to use hacked documents from wherever they come.

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Speaker 3: I mean, from my perspective, I can't help but enjoy

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Speaker 3: this because it's a story of such little consequence.

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Speaker 4: Yeah that I just I have to laugh my way

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Speaker 4: through the entire thing.

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Speaker 2: They are embarrassing, They're absolutely embarrassing the mess. Last piece

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Speaker 2: I'll put up here. We've got Eric Adams, you know,

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Speaker 2: grabbing onto this, and a lot of people commented to it,

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Speaker 2: could put this is c eight guys and could put

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Speaker 2: up on the screen. A lot of people were noting

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Speaker 2: that in the primary Cuomo was like a Cuomo aligned

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Speaker 2: super pac to be specific, here was like darkening Zorn's

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Speaker 2: skin and like ramping up his beard to make him

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Speaker 2: look like scarier. And now in the wake of this story,

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Speaker 2: they're trying to like lighten his skin and make him

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Speaker 2: look more like, oh, he's just you know, basically a

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Speaker 2: white guy. And so Eric Adams says or on mom

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Speaker 2: Donnie identified as Asian African American has got the picture

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Speaker 2: there of him checking Asian and African Americans. So whatever, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there you go.

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Speaker 4: It's like how you need You just have to enjoy it.

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Speaker 4: You just have to enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Incredible. All right, Let's go ahead and get to Tim

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Speaker 2: Dillan and Joe Rogan. So we have continued to see

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Speaker 2: some concerns raised from the sort of bro podcast sphere

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Speaker 2: that had been pro Trump leading up to his election,

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Speaker 2: and specifically over the issue of immigration, which, to be

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Speaker 2: honest with you, is a little bit of a surprise

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Speaker 2: to me, because there are lots of things in Trump

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Speaker 2: two point zero that I think it's reasonable to have

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Speaker 2: been surprised by. His aggressive approach to immigration is not

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Speaker 2: one of them. They were literally holding up mass deportation

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Speaker 2: now signs at the RNC. Nevertheless, it's good to see

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Speaker 2: that there are concerns being raised here, you know, with

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Speaker 2: people who maybe will be influential among a large, sort

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Speaker 2: of more independent base. Let's go ahead and start with

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Speaker 2: Tim Dillon and some of what he had to say.

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Speaker 8: You're collecting people that are law abiding, that have been

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Speaker 8: in the country a very long time, that have committed

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Speaker 8: no crime. You're picking people up in church parking lots

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Speaker 8: at high school graduations. It's inhumane, and I think a

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Speaker 8: lot of people feel that way. But in fairness to

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Speaker 8: the Trump team, they did think of this and say,

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Speaker 8: what if we put them all in a prison surrounded

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Speaker 8: by alligators? Would that make it feel more humane? Like

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Speaker 8: I think Trump and his people were like, sure, people

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Speaker 8: find these raids to be a bit abrupt and uh,

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Speaker 8: you know, soulless, unkind. But if if we then took

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Speaker 8: the people we swept up and put them in a

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Speaker 8: prison built in an alligator swamp, would that make people

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Speaker 8: feel better? It's a great way, I think, to show

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Speaker 8: that it's not just a heartless policy.

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Speaker 4: It's a policy that we've.

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Speaker 7: Put a lot of thought into.

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Speaker 2: So there you go to Tim Dllon's take on alligator Alcatraz, like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: your policy that was already dreadfully unpopular, of snatching up

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Speaker 2: like innocent people who've been paying their taxes, has been

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Speaker 2: here for years and years from a home depot. This

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Speaker 2: will make it better. I'm sure that will mess that

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Speaker 2: we're serious about this, And he goes on a whole

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Speaker 2: thing to about how you know, there are many other

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Speaker 2: types of deadly animals throughout the us, Like, why not

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Speaker 2: put them inside of like a shark literal shark tank

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Speaker 2: down in the ocean, with the sharks swimming around. Maybe

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Speaker 2: we could get some like grizzly bears involved. So in

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Speaker 2: any case, it's interesting to me, Emily that I mean,

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Speaker 2: first of all, it's interesting to me that anyone was

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Speaker 2: surprised by this direction from the Trump administration, given that

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Speaker 2: you've got Steven Miller running the show and running the show,

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Speaker 2: and even more like, I think he has completely taken

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Speaker 2: over this portfolio in a way even beyond what was

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Speaker 2: the case in the twenty sixteen Trump but given the

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Speaker 2: first administration, given the rhetoric on the campaign trail, and

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Speaker 2: you know, given the like explicit promises that were made

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Speaker 2: that this was going to be a focus. I know,

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Speaker 2: Trump claimed that, oh, well, this will just be focused

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Speaker 2: on He didn't say just be focused on criminals, but

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Speaker 2: he made it seem like the focus of the policy

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Speaker 2: would be on a mass criminal illegal alien population.

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Speaker 4: The first over and over again, Right, that's what we

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Speaker 4: want to do.

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Speaker 2: First definitely not the case, but also they projected, they

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Speaker 2: made it seem like, you know, the vast majority of

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Speaker 2: undocumented immigrants were in fact criminals, which is just not reality.

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Speaker 2: So I think that's where you know, they're running up

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Speaker 2: against the difference between the projection of the Trump campaign

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Speaker 2: and the way this was portrayed and then the actual

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Speaker 2: reality of seeing moms, dads, neighbors, people who have you know,

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Speaker 2: lived in this country and cause no problem committed, no crimes,

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Speaker 2: done all the right things, even people who were actually

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Speaker 2: following the process and trying to you know, apply for

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Speaker 2: asylum and like showing up for their hearings and all

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Speaker 2: of those things. This is the same thing that happened

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Speaker 2: really in the first Trump administration as well, where mass

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Speaker 2: immigration has never been more popular than it was during

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Speaker 2: the first Trump administration.

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Speaker 3: Which is why then you had every twenty twenty Democrat

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Speaker 3: running on a very pro immigration in a very relaxed

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Speaker 3: border policy, and you know, Biden particularly talked tough about

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Speaker 3: border security and all of that, but they were telegraphing

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Speaker 3: the signaling over and over again was that this would

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Speaker 3: be a much more lenient and welcoming administration. And so yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, we should roll this this Rogan clip as well,

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Speaker 3: because it echoes Tim Dylan. I mean, to your point, Crystal,

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Speaker 3: this is one of those political I don't want to

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Speaker 3: say conundrums, but it is kind of a conundrum for

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Speaker 3: the GOP, which the Republican base is very different from

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Speaker 3: the rest of the country. The Trump basse, I should say, actually,

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Speaker 3: it's very different from the rest of the country on

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Speaker 3: the question of mass deportation. So it pulls very differently

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Speaker 3: depending on what you're looking at when you get it,

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Speaker 3: and you've pointed this out a lot. When you get

434
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 3: into the specifics of what quote unquote mass deportation, looks like,

435
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 3: people are less supportive than when you just use the

436
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: phrase mass deportation.

437
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 4: But this is really really important to the Republican base.

438
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 3: People like Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller believe that you

439
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 3: never have the same country again if there isn't a

440
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 3: process of mass deportations over the course of the Trump administration,

441
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 3: and their definition of mass deportation is really undoing the

442
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 3: entire Biden era, which will involve basically, if you wanted

443
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 3: to take eight million, if you wanted to deport the

444
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 3: eight million estimated people who came in at least during

445
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 3: the Biden administration. First of all, that's not all illegal immigration.

446
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 3: A lot of it was legalized by the Biden administration,

447
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 3: which created the asylum process, and well not created, but

448
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 3: expanded the asylum process and made it really easy. They

449
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 3: did not detain people and let them into the interior

450
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 3: of the country while their asylum hearings waited because there

451
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 3: were so many people, and so to undo that, you're

452
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 3: talking about tens of thousands of deportations a week. If

453
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 3: you wanted to do it in a year, it would

454
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 3: be like twenty thousand deportations a day at least.

455
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 4: So it's not.

456
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 3: Going to I think they always knew it wouldn't be

457
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 3: what the public looked like. It wouldn't be conger with

458
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 3: the public's expectation. When you hear mass deportations and you

459
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 3: see that juxtaposed with concert rhetoric about criminality and all

460
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 3: of that, it's going to look different in practice.

461
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: And they want to go further than just rolling back

462
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 2: what happened during the Biden administration. By that, I mean

463
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 2: you have memo from the DOJA talking about let's prioritize

464
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 2: denaturalizing US citizens. I mean that goes that goes far

465
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: beyond you. Genuinely. I mean Stephen Miller is a genuine

466
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: ideologue who wants a white eth no state, and anyone

467
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: who doesn't fit his category of what an American should be,

468
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: he thinks should be fair game to get out of

469
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 2: the country. And so that is, you know, the project

470
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 2: that they're embarking on. And as aggressive as the raids

471
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: have been so far, you now also have the one big,

472
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 2: beautiful bill that floods ICE with resources where they're supposed

473
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: to have ten thousand ICE agents, largest federal law enforcement agency,

474
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 2: as I said before, a larger than the military budget

475
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: of places like Brazil and Israel. Just a huge influx

476
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: of resources, not to mention an extraordinary flooding of money

477
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: to private prison contractors who will be setting up these,

478
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: you know, mass detention centers. So in any case, you've

479
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 2: already got the Tim Dillons and the Joe Rogan's of

480
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 2: the world somewhat uncomfortable with what's going on. Let's go

481
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: ahead and roll what Joe Rogan had to say about

482
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: this dtwo.

483
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 9: We were told there would be no There's two things

484
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 9: that are insane. One is the targeting of migrant workers,

485
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 9: not cartel members, not gang members, not drug dealers, just

486
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 9: construction workers showing up in construction sites raiding them.

487
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 10: Gardeners.

488
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 11: Yeah, like really or passing students on college campuses or not,

489
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 11: like there's a target. Did you see this video of

490
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 11: this Turkish students at Tufts University that wrote an essay

491
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 11: and then there's a video of like Ice agents, Like

492
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 11: is that the woman? Yeah?

493
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 10: Yeah, what was her essay about? It was just critical

494
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 10: of Israel?

495
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 12: Right, yeah?

496
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 9: I mean, and that's enough to get you kicked out

497
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 9: of the country.

498
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 10: There's a long history of.

499
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 11: Anti colonial activism in the US colleges, you know, that

500
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 11: led to to you know, South Africa changing and all

501
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 11: of that, and I think this is a continuation of that.

502
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: And Emily, it seems to me like there have been

503
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: a few things that have really touched a nerve for

504
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: people in the Trump two point zero era with regard

505
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: to the immigration policy. Number one is the what they

506
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: were talking about there, the kidnapping of Ramesa Osterk which

507
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 2: happened on camera. You have these masked ICE agents. I

508
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: think they were ICE agents. I don't even know what

509
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: federal agency they came from, who came multiple of them,

510
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: grabbed her off the street and then lo and behold

511
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 2: we learn what did she do? She wrote an op

512
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: ed for the student newspaper, calling for the university to

513
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 2: divest from Israel, like the most basic First Amendment protected

514
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: called activism, you know, and she I think the visual

515
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: not at no, at all, no. And I think the

516
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 2: visual of seeing her snatch off the street for that,

517
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: I think that was really searing for people totally. I

518
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: think kill mar Abrego Garcia and what happened there. He

519
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: really became, you know, as you had him and hundreds

520
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: of others swept up, no due process, and the Trump

521
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 2: administration admits that this was they shouldn't have done this,

522
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: that this was a wrongful deportation, and yet they're so

523
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: committed to keeping him in this horrific slave labor camp

524
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: dungeon in El Salvador. I think that you can see

525
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 2: in the poll numbers that the favorability of Trump on

526
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: immigration really begins to decline there. And then the other

527
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: thing that really touched on nerve for some reason was

528
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: these home depot rates. And you have a moment with

529
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 2: you know, reportedly Steven Miller goes to Ice and yells

530
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 2: at them and says, why are you focusing on the criminals.

531
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: I want to see you go to the seven elevens.

532
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: I want to see you in name checks at home

533
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: depots specifically, and then you see an escalation in the tactics.

534
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: That's what also leads to the anti ice protests in

535
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: places like LA. But something about picking up the home

536
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: depot day laborers really struck guys like Joe Rogan, guys

537
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: like Tim Dillon, because I think it feels so familiar.

538
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: These are not like, you know, the scary theoretical gang

539
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: members who are out there terrorizing community. It's like, you know,

540
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 2: Rogan has probably been to that La home depot where

541
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: that raid happened. He may have used some of those

542
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: day laborers for some project around his house or something like.

543
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 2: It just feels so suburban and so familiar that it's

544
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: impossible to caricature these guys as some like nasty menace

545
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: to society in the way that the Steven Miller's and

546
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: the Trumps of the world want to.

547
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 3: Well, I was gonna say this is another example of

548
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: where that golf is significant. Because Rogan and Tim Dillon

549
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 3: are wealthy, independent. You talk to the kind of red

550
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 3: meat Trump bass, they are going to be all for

551
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 3: home depot right It's in the Stephen Miller and Donald

552
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 3: Trump is not quite on board with the home depot

553
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: rays by the way, because he's clearly been curing from

554
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 3: the hospitality industry, construction industry, and is.

555
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 4: Himself bigag not sold on.

556
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: What we saw from it was like the Lejoe where

557
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 3: you had workers running through the field when Ice was

558
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 3: trying to make a rest and that golf is I mean,

559
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 3: it's not going anywhere. Because you have Stephen Miller making

560
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: this his single priority. This is Bannon's like if he

561
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: if Bannon is ranking his priorities, this is probably the

562
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 3: literal top one because they actually believe that this is

563
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 3: like the the Jenga block that once it's pulled, everything crumbled.

564
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 4: They really see it that way.

565
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: And because of that, Donald Trump can you know, say,

566
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 3: we're going to be lenient with hospitality workers and agricultural

567
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: workers as much as he wants, but if they're going

568
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: to be funding a bunch more detention centers like Alligator.

569
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: Alcatraz hasn't taken any money from FEMA so far, which

570
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 3: is interesting because DeSantis did it on his own. Now

571
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 3: Ice has all of this money and is going to

572
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: be building more detention facilities, and most of those migrants

573
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 3: who came in during the course of the course of

574
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 3: the Biden administration. If they are quote unquote criminal, it's

575
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 3: because they crossed the border twice for example, like they

576
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 3: got deported and then recrossed, or they didn't go to

577
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: an asylum or whatever it is. Like that's the that's

578
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: what hasn't been followed. And for the average American, they're

579
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 3: not going to like seeing those people rounded up and

580
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: put in detention camps, let alone like shoddy ones that

581
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: were constructed in a week. But the Trump base both

582
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: demands it and loves it, and that's a huge political problem.

583
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 4: Wistration.

584
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: Here's what I would say. Yes, the Trump based they

585
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: are not going to complain. They're going to delight in

586
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: the you know, Alligator Alcatraz and the home depot raids

587
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: and the you know, whatever Trump does they're going to

588
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: be on board with. But whatever Trump does, they're going

589
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 2: to be on board with. So if he wanted to

590
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 2: moderate this policy at this point, he could, and I

591
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: don't think he'll face any significant backlash from the base.

592
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: There's no indication that there has ever been any significant

593
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: backlash from the bezo or any Trump policy. Yeah, you know,

594
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: so I don't see him as they are beholden to him.

595
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: He's not beholden to them at this point. And maybe

596
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: there was a different point where that was the case,

597
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 2: but I mean the same is like I could shoot

598
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: someone on Fifth Avenue. It's true, It's true his bas

599
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: is with him. They will justify anything that we talked

600
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: about the Epstein thing, even though there's been all this online,

601
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that Epstein and Trump's going to reveal

602
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: it and blah blah blah, him turning on a dime

603
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 2: and being like, no client list, nothing to see here.

604
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: They're going to find a way to justify it. So

605
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: I don't think he's really held hostage by the base.

606
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 3: I think he has I think, well, he's held hostage

607
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 3: to they sent that Stephen Miller is very powerful in

608
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 3: the administration, and Stephen Miller wants do it.

609
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: That's the point is. I think he has outsources to

610
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: Steven Miller and Steven Miller and other things as well,

611
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: by the way, and Steven Miller's running it, and he's

612
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: not really concerning himself too much with the details, and

613
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: you know feels like, Okay, I ran on mass deportation,

614
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: and you know the only time he cares is when, yeah,

615
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: some rich business owner calls him. I was like my

616
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: farm workers are getting rounded up, or I don't have

617
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: my seasonal hospitality workers or whatever, and he'll express some concern,

618
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: but then you know, days later he'll go back on it,

619
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: and Steven Miller is still doing his thing.

620
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 6: Yeah.

621
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 3: I think Steven Miller is obsessed with the details of

622
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: the policy but not at all concerned about the politics

623
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: of it, because they see this, at least mostly he

624
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: is as.

625
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: A one true administration ideologue.

626
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 12: Yeah.

627
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: They see this as the second term Trump doesn't have

628
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 3: to run again, and that this is their last chance to.

629
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 4: Walk a lot of this back. That walk what happened

630
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 4: back during the Biden administration.

631
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: And just as we were talking, Crystal tom Homan did

632
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 3: a gaggle at the White House and he said that

633
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 3: deporting three thousand people days quote not enough, and said,

634
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 3: for those that say three thousand a day is too much,

635
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: we have to arrest seven thousand every single day for

636
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: the remainder of this administration, just to catch the ones

637
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: Biden released into the nation. And as we were just saying,

638
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 3: I'm sure that math actually adds up, because it was

639
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: a really significant wave of immigration, the most significant since

640
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: Ellis Island. As David Leonordo had written for The New

641
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 3: York Times not too long ago. So yeah, I think

642
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 3: those numbers add up. But the only people that really

643
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 3: really is going to relish seeing that is the slice

644
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 3: of the country that's hardcore, die hard MAGA and the

645
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 3: rest of the country. It's not as though they're just

646
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 3: gonna be like whatever. They are going to be revolted

647
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 3: by it. And it is going to be a huge

648
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 3: shot in the arm for the Democratic Party in the

649
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 3: left as they try to mobilize an opposition to Trump

650
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 3: two point zero. But Stephen Miller understands that that's a

651
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 3: risk that they, from his perspective, have to take for

652
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 3: it to have the policy outcome that he and Tom

653
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 3: Holman want.

654
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, the political risks they believe are well worth taking.

655
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: Well. And Steven Miller was going to be an anti

656
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 2: immigrant sellt regardless of what happened during the Biden administration,

657
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 2: how the immigrants came in, because he thinks it should

658
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 2: be a white ethno state and he believes in that.

659
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 7: He does.

660
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: He believes. I mean, even Trump, I think has said

661
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: that that Steven Miller only wants white people here, like

662
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: that is his policy. And you increasingly have people like

663
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk who are out and not admitting like we

664
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: need to have zero immigration from the what do you

665
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: call it, the third world, which again is just like

666
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: we don't want brown people here. So, you know, the

667
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,479
Speaker 2: mask is kind of off for some of these guys,

668
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: and he is in control, like it is his ultimately

669
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: his policy, and he is running it, you know, in

670
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: terms of the you know, the political fallout. The last

671
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 2: point I'll make on this is it's not just horror

672
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: at what is being done to other people. It's also

673
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: that when you have any federal law enforcement agency with

674
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 2: this large of a budget, who are doing things like

675
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: snatching people off the street because they wrote an op ed,

676
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: and who are saying they're going to prioritize denaturalizing American citizens,

677
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: you very quickly realize that this thing does not stay

678
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: confined even among the immigrant population, even among the nationalized

679
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: citizen population. You are constructing a mass surveillance state, a

680
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 2: mass police state, and that will have reverberating impacts for everyone.

681
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: We already have seen American citizens who got picked up

682
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: and detained for hours and hours because they had the

683
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: wrong were in the wrong place, and had the wrong

684
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 2: level of melanin in their skin and look like they

685
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 2: might be an immigrant, and even if they had their papers,

686
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: they weren't believed or they weren't listened to and were detained.

687
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 2: But the increase in the ICE budget means those things

688
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: are going to be happening more and war regularly. Palenteer

689
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 2: wants to build their big database of absolutely everyone. I mean,

690
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 2: this is a mass operation that if Stephen Miller's of

691
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: the world get their way, Like I said, it's not

692
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: just going to be about the way it impacts immigrants,

693
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: although that part is important, as we you know, are

694
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 2: all human beings and deserve some level of human rights

695
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 2: and dignity. It's also going to impact everyone in this country.

696
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: So I think, you know, we're kind of on the

697
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,479
Speaker 2: cusp of seeing that, and I think that our best,

698
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 2: the best hope is just that there's a tremendous level

699
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 2: of incompetence and they're not actually able to marshal the

700
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: level of resources, the flooding of resources that they're being given.

701
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 4: I mean, that's a pretty decent bet, it's.

702
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: A pretty that's a strong possibility of that.

703
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 3: We've never seen a deportation effort on the scale now

704
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 3: modern history I mean, no, seven thousand a day. For

705
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,479
Speaker 3: Tom Holman's point, yes, they have a lot of money,

706
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: but they also only have what three and a half

707
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 3: years at this point to do it. It won't be

708
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 3: popular with the public, so it's a it's an uphill,

709
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 3: uphill climb for them to be sure that much we know.

710
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 2: All right, let's go ahead and get to Jeremy Scalhill

711
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: on Trump's meeting with Netanyahu this week. So, as we

712
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: mentioned a couple of times earlier, Benjamin na Yaho is

713
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 2: in town this week in DC to meet with Trump

714
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: once again, so to analyze this and the possibility of

715
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: any sort of a ceasefire deal, and what's going on

716
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 2: in I Run and all sorts of other things. We're

717
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 2: lucky to be joined by Jeremy Scahill, of course, co

718
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 2: founder of drop site News. Great to see you again, Jeremy.

719
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 10: Thanks for having me back.

720
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 2: So let me just start with that question. What do

721
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: you think is that the consequence what sort of things

722
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: are going to be discussed at this meeting with Nan

723
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 2: Nahou and Trump.

724
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 13: Well, you know, of course Donald Trump has said this

725
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 13: is the final proposal for a Gaza ceasefire, and what

726
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 13: we've seen over the past week or so is a

727
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 13: process where the Israelis have essentially been negotiating with themselves

728
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 13: within netnya, who's power structure, on what positions they want

729
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 13: to stake out. The proposal that Trump put forward was

730
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 13: drafted in consultation with the iss with primarily Ron Dermer,

731
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 13: who is Netnyahu's lead official dealing with these negotiations, and

732
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 13: Hamas for its side, didn't do much in terms of

733
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 13: revising the document, but they did zero in on three

734
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 13: key things that they wanted changed, and basically one of

735
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 13: them is they want a bit stronger language from Donald

736
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 13: Trump confirming that he will continue to force Israel to

737
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 13: hold its fire beyond an initial sixty day period so

738
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 13: that a permanent ceasefire can be declared. Israel has pushed

739
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 13: back very hard on that they want to be able

740
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 13: to resume the military assault on Gaza after two months

741
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 13: if Netanyahu decides that's what he wants to do. The

742
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 13: second is that they wanted to have a reversion to

743
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 13: the original ceasefire agreements map positions for Israeli forces to

744
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 13: withdraw from Gaza. Net Yahoo has been saying that he

745
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 13: wants to stay in the South of Gaza, that they

746
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 13: want to create a zone along the Egypt border and

747
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 13: try to force all of the Palestinians, two million plus

748
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 13: Palestinians into this small sliver of the Gaza Strip. And

749
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 13: then presumably they think that they would then fight a

750
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 13: guerrilla war against HAMAS fighters in the rest of the

751
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 13: Gaza Strip. And then the final term that Hamas wanted

752
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 13: changed had to do, and this is the one that

753
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 13: I'm told this morning by Hamas officials is most central

754
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 13: right now in the negotiations.

755
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 10: Hamas wants unrestricted.

756
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 13: Aid to flow into Gaza, and they don't want this

757
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 13: deadly aid scheme cynically known as the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation

758
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 13: to be in any way involved with the distribution of aid.

759
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 13: So you have a delegation right now that net Nyaho

760
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 13: grudgingly sent to Doha, Qatar, and I was told by

761
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 13: a Hamas official this morning there's been absolutely zero progress

762
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 13: in those talks. Another Palestinian close to the negotiations said

763
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 13: that if net Nyahu insists on Israel controlling the aid,

764
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 13: that it could be a deal breaker, but all parties involved,

765
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 13: including Hamas, know that it's irrelevant. What's happening right now

766
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 13: in Doha all that matters is what happens between net

767
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 13: Yahu and Trump. If Trump decides he wants a deal,

768
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 13: he's the only person in the world that can force

769
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 13: net and Yahoo to accept terms that he doesn't want

770
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 13: to accept.

771
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, as it's always been.

772
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you broke this down in your drop site report,

773
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: which folcsre saw up on the screen and can read

774
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 3: and go into great depth and detail on Jeremy. So

775
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 3: could you also flesh out for us what some of

776
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 3: that stronger language might look like? Because I think when

777
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 3: I hear that, at least I think stronger language. But

778
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 3: what is like does a stronger language still leave wiggle

779
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 3: room for netsan Yahoo? And would that be part of

780
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 3: something that Trump sort of comes to the table and says,

781
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 3: you've got to have the stronger language. Will agree to

782
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 3: the stronger language. But wink wink, that's a stronger language.

783
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: It's language at the end of the day. So can

784
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 3: you tell us a little bit more about what Hamas

785
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 3: is looking for when it comes to the language.

786
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 10: I mean, this is a really important question.

787
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 13: I think it bears repeating that Israel has constantly violated

788
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 13: ceasefire agreements, including the agreement that Donald Trump and Joe

789
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 13: Biden pushed through that original January agreement wouldn't have happened

790
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 13: without Donald Trump and Steve Whitkoff, and Israel killed more

791
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 13: than one hundred and sixty Palestinians during the ceasefire. Then

792
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 13: it unilaterally abandoned it and resumed the military assault on

793
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 13: Gaza on March eighteenth, and so as the discussions have

794
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 13: happened emily over the past couple of months since that

795
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 13: ceasefire was blown up. Hamas has been pushing US mediators

796
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 13: and there have been some direct talks between the United

797
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 13: States and Hamas, something that Joe Biden wouldn't do. Trump

798
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 13: has done. And during those talks, the Palestinians have said,

799
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 13: you know, we hear what Donald Trump says that he

800
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 13: wants to end this war, and he wants it to

801
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 13: be definitively ended, but we need to have Israel bound

802
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 13: to that agreement. And so, you know, it may seem

803
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 13: like it's splitting hairs, but what Hamas wants is for

804
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 13: very clear language that states that the United States, Egypt,

805
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,959
Speaker 13: and Kutar. Egypt and Kutar are the regional mediators dealing

806
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 13: with this ceasefire negotiation process that they want them to

807
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 13: guarantee that while Hamas and Is negotiate a final resolution

808
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 13: to the Gaza War, that the terms of the sixty

809
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 13: day Initial Truth are going to apply, meaning Israel will

810
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 13: not put a blockade on AID and meaning that Israel

811
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 13: is not going to violate the ceasefire. Hamas knows that

812
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 13: Israel will likely violate any agreement that it signs, So

813
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 13: they're sort of struggling to find what is the best

814
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 13: that we can get in this situation, and they believe

815
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 13: that by having Trump publicly state that he is going

816
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 13: to keep Israel in check because he wants a permanent

817
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 13: end to the war. Now, we can talk about Trump's

818
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 13: agenda and what he wants to see happen as a

819
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 13: result of it, but there are indications that Trump actually

820
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 13: does want this resolve. He also likely wants to expand

821
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 13: the so called Abraham Accords. He may want to make

822
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 13: a deal with the decrepit, corrupt, unpopular leader of the

823
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 13: Palestinian authority. Whatever happens next, Hamas understands that it really

824
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 13: only matters what Donald Trump wants and is willing to

825
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 13: do right now. So that's why you see what appear

826
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 13: to be kind of minor language changes actually meaning something

827
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 13: tabas And look, if you put the two versions next

828
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 13: to each other, there is a big difference because they

829
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 13: took out hedge language, they took out vague phrases like

830
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 13: if necessary, They remove just Egypt and Kutar being the

831
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 13: guaranters of that, and reinserted the United States. It's possible

832
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 13: that Trump is going to grant some concessions on this.

833
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 13: The bigger issue really is going to be where do

834
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 13: is Raeli troops withdraw to if a ceasefire is signed,

835
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 13: because not Yahu's saying they're going to remain there no

836
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 13: matter what. And then this other issue of the AID.

837
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 13: I mean, it's an unspeakable situation right now in Gaza,

838
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 13: and I'm told that that is actually the main issue

839
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 13: that is being debated and discussed right now.

840
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: So let's actually skip forward to talk more about that

841
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 2: AID situation, the quote unquote Gaza Humanitarian Foundation that has

842
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: been running these AID traps and massacre and you know,

843
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 2: corresponding massacres. There's an interview recently with the head of

844
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 2: the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Now this is the guy who

845
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: replaced the original guy who stepped away after saying I

846
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: don't think that this is the good idea anymore. This

847
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 2: is E three guys. Let's go ahead and play a

848
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: little bit of this interview and then I want to

849
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 2: get Jerry's reaction. On the other side.

850
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 12: We have spoken to doctors, British doctors, Western doctors, eyewitnesses

851
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 12: on the scene who tell us that almost every day

852
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 12: they are coming under fire from Israeli forces trying to

853
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 12: get to the aid point. Just before and as they leave,

854
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 12: they are being fired on. What are you doing to

855
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 12: ensure their safety.

856
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 14: I don't think anybody knows entirely what's happened in the

857
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 14: Gaza strip from from our from our point of view,

858
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 14: based upon our experience on the ground, we don't see

859
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 14: the impenence of this degree of of of of mass

860
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 14: casualties directly related to the people seeking seeking aid because.

861
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 12: You have absolutely zero way of verifying who's taken that aid.

862
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 14: While we can't verify that every individual pack of you know,

863
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 14: a flower, for instance, isn't somehow ending up in someplace

864
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 14: that it wasn't intended, what we can absolutely verify is

865
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 14: that there is no mass version issue.

866
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 12: Based on what Because you're not verifying the people who

867
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 12: collect the food, there is no system. Their names are

868
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 12: not anywhere, there's no id. And also we have filmed

869
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,760
Speaker 12: your food being sold at astronomical prices on the black market.

870
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 14: I just have this question for you, Deborah, do you

871
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 14: have anything positive to say whatsoever about what we're doing.

872
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 14: We've made a decision, and the decision is that it's

873
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 14: worth operating in a war zone, with all the complexity

874
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 14: and all the risk, as deadly as it is, because

875
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 14: Gazans deserve.

876
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 7: Food and that is laudable.

877
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 12: So my challenge to you is take us in. Let

878
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 12: me come and see it for myself and report the

879
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 12: good and the bad. Because if there is nothing to hide,

880
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 12: and this process is exactly how you're explaining and you're

881
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 12: saying it's a good, then let us film it be transparent.

882
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 7: That's not a decision I could. I could make a loan.

883
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 7: I mean, there are lots of different aspects of that,

884
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 7: including the diversion of resources solely dedicated to the people

885
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 7: of Gaza. I would like to see from a few

886
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 7: people in the in the in the in the press,

887
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,919
Speaker 7: a little less cynicism.

888
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 2: Little less cynicism from us. Jeremy. So that was Reverend

889
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: Johnny Moore, who is an evangelical leader and is now

890
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: the new head of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, saying there

891
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 2: are no mass casualty events. But also you can't come

892
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 2: and see and verify for yourself.

893
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean a couple of things.

894
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 13: First of all, we have to understand this not as

895
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 13: an independent entity, but as an agent of the Israeli state.

896
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 13: That's how Netanyahu and other Israeli officials have spoken about it,

897
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 13: and mainstream major news organist organizations including NPR, the BBC,

898
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 13: the Washington Post have recently done expose a's where American

899
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 13: mercenaries who went to Gaza as part of this aid

900
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 13: scam actually described the lethal actions of their own operatives.

901
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 13: We have Palestinians that have filmed the aftermath of these shootings.

902
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 13: We have doctors, including international doctors in Gaza, that have

903
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 13: described the sorts of wounds and fatal wounds that they

904
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 13: have treated in the aftermath of people desperately trying to

905
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 13: go and get what is actually a pittance of aid.

906
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 13: While this clip sort of went viral and it was

907
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 13: sort of portrayed as a gotcha moment, the journalists actually

908
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 13: engaged in what I think is a bit of journalistic malpractice.

909
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 13: She started questioning him about Hamas diverting the AID. Senior

910
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 13: US officials, including the head humanitarian officer from the biden Era,

911
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 13: have said that there's no evidence of any significant theft

912
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 13: of AID by Hamas. But just this morning and over

913
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 13: the past few days, Yaser Abu Shabab, who is the

914
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,280
Speaker 13: head of an Israeli and Palestinian authority backed militia in Gaza,

915
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 13: has openly said in Hebrew language media interviews that his

916
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 13: forces have stolen aid to then just attributed to people

917
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 13: that they want to give it to. So you know, there, yes,

918
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 13: there were really important things that came out of that interview,

919
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 13: but also the journalist wasted so much time in her

920
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 13: questioning based on an entirely false premise. The reality is,

921
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 13: and I don't think anyone can dispute this, Israel has

922
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 13: used food as a weapon of war, and the Israeli

923
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 13: Cabinet over the weekend voted to intensify the use of

924
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 13: food as a weapon of war. And they're rejecting putting

925
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 13: in charge a neutral, independent body that had a very

926
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 13: effective system for distributing AID and it was not being

927
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 13: stolen by Hamas.

928
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 10: That's just the fact.

929
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 3: So Jeremy have to get your take on this Wall

930
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 3: Street Journal piece from Elliott Kaufman that published over the

931
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 3: last couple of days.

932
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 4: This is E two. We can put it up on

933
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 4: the screen.

934
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 3: I mean, just fascinating for a lot of reasons, especially

935
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 3: from somebody who follows this, even just as a student

936
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 3: of the media coverage like yourself.

937
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 4: Jeremy.

938
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 3: So, a new Palatinian offer for peace with Israel. Hebron

939
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 3: sheikhs proposed to leave the Palastini authority join the Abraham Accords.

940
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 3: The reaction to this piece from people in the region,

941
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 3: Jeremy was really fascinating. Could you tell us, first of all,

942
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 3: what you make of the journal dropping the story a

943
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: couple of days before in nsa Yah Who's visit, and

944
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 3: basically some of the reaction that has poured out since

945
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 3: it was published.

946
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 13: I mean, throughout the history of Israel's occupation, you've always

947
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 13: had small clusters of Palestinians that have sort of appeared

948
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 13: to be more pro Israeli or maybe for their own reasons,

949
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 13: want to try to cut a deal. I mean, the

950
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 13: reality is, this is a tiny fraction of the Palestinian

951
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 13: population that is making this offer, and it's not even

952
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 13: clear that they speak for the entire community of Hebron.

953
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 13: You know, often when these stories come up that appear

954
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 13: to be presenting an alternative to established Palestinian political figures

955
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 13: or movements that are about Palestinian liberation, they get an

956
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 13: enormous amount of attention in the West. The reality is

957
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 13: that this is basically an story on the ground in Palestine,

958
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 13: people are concerned about the genocide and Gaza, and they're

959
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 13: concerned about the largest force displacement campaign in the occupied

960
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 13: West Bank since nineteen sixty seven. Fifteen members of Netnyahu's party,

961
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 13: the Li Coud Party, over the weekend wrote a letter

962
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 13: to Netnaho's saying, now is the time to seize to

963
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 13: formally annex the entire territory of the occupied West Bank. So,

964
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 13: you know, these kinds of stories may be appealing to

965
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 13: an op ed writer in the Wall Street Journal, or

966
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 13: sort of fun for coffee talk among people that delude

967
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 13: themselves into believing that somehow you can co opt the

968
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 13: Palestinian liberation struggle. But at the end of the day,

969
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 13: the vast majority of Palestinians in poll after poll support

970
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 13: the idea that they needed independent homeland, that it needs

971
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 13: to be a unified one that connects both Gaza, the

972
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 13: occupied West Bank, and Jerusalem.

973
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 10: So, you know, I think that we have to look

974
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 10: at this through.

975
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 13: The lens of who's really promoting this story, because it

976
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 13: really we're talking about a teeny tiny fraction of the

977
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 13: Palestinian population that is advocating for this solution.

978
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: Lastly, Jeremy, just to circle back to the meeting today

979
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 2: with Trump and Matnahoo, they'll obviously also be discussing Iran.

980
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson just dropped his interview with the President of Iran.

981
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 2: I haven't had a chance to watch it, but I'm

982
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: seeing some of the clips floating around. Apparently he got

983
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 2: asked about the supposed Iranian sleeper cells in the US.

984
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 2: He denies that and says this is just being used

985
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: basically to scare Americans. He also apparently revealed claimed that

986
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: Israel had tried to assassinate him, which I don't think

987
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 2: would be a big surprise to anyone. In any case,

988
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: what is your understanding of what Israel's interest is with

989
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 2: regard to Iran, what they would like to do and

990
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 2: what we would like to what they would like us

991
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 2: to do on their behalf, and what Trump Himself's orientation

992
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: towards Iran is at this point.

993
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 13: Well, I mean, I think it's pretty clear that Netanyahu

994
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 13: wants full scale regime change in Iran, and you know,

995
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 13: to his credit, even though there was a lot of

996
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 13: speculation that Trump was going to go forward and actually

997
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 13: you know, assassinate the Supreme Leader Ayatola Famani and you know,

998
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 13: bankroll and arm Israel as it actually enacted regime change

999
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 13: in Iran, it doesn't seem to be as of now

1000
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 13: the direction that the United States wants to go in.

1001
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 13: But I think it's very likely that we will again

1002
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 13: see bombing of Iran. Whether it's only Israel or Israel

1003
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 13: in the United States remains to be seen. But you know,

1004
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 13: Iran time and again has defied people's declarations that the

1005
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 13: end of the government is just on the horizon. And

1006
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 13: you know, it really speaks to the bankrupt nature of

1007
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 13: the political media in the United States that it's left

1008
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 13: to Tucker Carlson to do interviews not just with the

1009
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 13: president of Iran, but with other figures that the United

1010
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 13: States has designated as official enemies. Anytime you get to

1011
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 13: hear the perspective of the people on the other side

1012
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 13: of American missiles. It helps to inform a society that

1013
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 13: purports to be democratic, So we should have more hearing

1014
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 13: from people that live on the other side of American missiles.

1015
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 13: And at the end of the day, whether you're a

1016
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 13: conservative or a liberal, or you're a political radical of

1017
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 13: some sort, more information means a better ability to make decisions.

1018
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 13: And I think there is a fundamental question that shouldn't

1019
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 13: only belong to the MAGA movement, and that is what

1020
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 13: is fundamentally in the US interest. I would argue that

1021
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 13: none of these wars are in the US interest, and

1022
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 13: I know that there's a minority section of Trump world

1023
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 13: that also, for their own reasons, believe that same thing.

1024
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 13: We can't continue this bankrupt, neo con view of the

1025
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 13: world that the United States can be a hammer in

1026
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 13: search of nails, and we certainly shouldn't be doing Israel's

1027
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 13: agenda because what Netanyahu wants, and clearly he has a

1028
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 13: lot of support for this in Israel, is to continue

1029
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 13: setting that region on fire. What may seem to be

1030
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,399
Speaker 13: tactical victories right now in the short term could well

1031
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 13: produce a generation of people that seek to oppose the

1032
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 13: United States and Israel, that are far more radical than

1033
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 13: any of the forces that we now see in the region.

1034
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 10: It's it's born of an idea called blowback.

1035
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 13: And I think that, you know, Netanyahu can try to

1036
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 13: do his victory dance, being you know, the only leader

1037
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 13: that's been invited three times to see Trump. But Americans

1038
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 13: should really be asking, and I see increasingly conservatives asking

1039
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 13: this question. Major media figures in the conservative ecospace, you know,

1040
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 13: ecosystem are asking these questions. And I think it's important.

1041
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 13: Why is the United States doing the bidding of this

1042
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 13: rogue regime in Israel. That's a serious question that should

1043
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 13: be on the table right now for all Americans.

1044
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 2: Jeremie Skahill Well said, is always and great to see,

1045
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: so thank you so much for your reporting.

1046
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 10: Thank you both.

1047
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 2: All right, guys, that does it for us here today.

1048
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 2: I will be back for Breaking Points tomorrow and then

1049
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 2: we'll have actually Sager and for Emily on Wednesday and whatever.

1050
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 2: For sure, Yeah, absolutely, we'll just keep you guys guessing

1051
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 2: out there. Thank you guys again so much for your support.

1052
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: We're going to go ahead and do that. AMA Live

1053
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: now for premium subscribers. If you are not a premium subscriber,

1054
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 2: you can become one at breakingpoints dot com. In any case,

1055
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 2: if you guys have a great day and I will

1056
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: see you back here tomorrow.