1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Hmm, what's still in the zevia on my work laptop 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: and fucking my life up for days? My me at 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: thirty when I finished working last night. This is Robert 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: Evans hosted Behind the Bastards, recording immediately after the worst 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: disaster to happen to me in in tens of hours, 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: just a just a tremendous funk up last night as 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: I was standing up from my work desk and uh, 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: I am, I am, I am in a bad way. 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: Friends and fam Lee my guest today to help me 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,639 Speaker 1: through this this tragically difficult time is Sharene, Lonnie, Unice, Sharine, 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: how are you doing? Thank you for waiting forty minutes 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: for me to get my gaming laptop ready to be 13 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: my working laptop. It is okay. Me and Sophie had 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: a much needed catch up. And I mean, yeah, you're 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: having a much better worse day than I am. And 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: I am I'm having a trash day. Yeah, I'm very sorry, 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: and I mean, honestly, I commend you for even recording 18 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: with me today. You know, oh no, no, no, the 19 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: show must go on, even if the laptop that wrote 20 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: it seems to be permafued um. But I guess, well, 21 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: time will tell on that one. Yeah, I do think 22 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: it's funny that you were drinking a zvia though those 23 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: are great. That's Robert's favorite thing. I don't know what 24 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: I have all the flavors in the house. I don't 25 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: know which one I was. I thought your favorite was 26 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: the ginger. That's probably my favorite. But there's different zvias 27 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: for different times. There's like a squirt style zvia that's 28 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: like kind of citrusy. That's very good. Um, the grape 29 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: one is quite nice. That's one of my favorites one 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: if I'm kind of a the ginger ailes great. I 31 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: have the Cherry Cola and the dr Pepper knockoffs for 32 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: when I'm like because they have caffeine that's like my 33 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: my during the day drink. There's a there's a there's 34 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: a decaf cola that I'll have later in the evening 35 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: before I switch over to my nighttime zvia. Is that 36 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: I take you ever water in between? No? Why would 37 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: I fish fucking that? Do you want come in your 38 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: in your in your body? No? No, thank you. I 39 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: was gonna say. I brought that up because I thought 40 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: it was might maybe one of those things where like 41 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: you were you're gonna hate Zevia forever now, but you 42 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: can't do that. You're not the Zvia's fault that I 43 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: dropped a beverage that that that can't be blamed upon 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: the Zvia. There have been hundreds of zebas on this 45 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: desk that did not trash my laptop, So the fault 46 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: must lie with me or I don't know if the 47 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: government feels like a good thing to blame the government for. 48 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: It's on every day a white man takes responsibility, So 49 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: I really applauded you for that. It's it's definitely an 50 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: even mix of me and the government. How do you 51 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: feel about con artists con artists con artists? I mean, 52 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: depending on the con I'm okey kind of respect a 53 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: fascinated by then yeah, um, because I think it's like 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,399 Speaker 1: there's a I don't know what it is, but there's 55 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: probably a particular personality type or something. It's like equivalent 56 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: of pathological lying to me, and they're very good at it, 57 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: and there's something very like scary interesting to me about that, 58 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: you know. And there you know, there's con artists in 59 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: every society. And we will in part to talk about 60 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: a con artist in India, but I think con artists 61 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: are the most American thing you can be, because this 62 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: is a nation. As a song I partly remember said 63 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: Americans love freedom, and nothing says freedom like getting away 64 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: with a crime. And that's like what we love con 65 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: artists like even when they're fucking as as long as 66 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: it's not like we hate them when they've specifically fucked 67 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: us over, but as long as they haven't specifically sucked 68 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: us over, we love them. And I didn't mean respect, 69 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: like a loving respect. I just meant like, depending on 70 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: the cont Like, that's what I'm saying, Like, like, if 71 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: it's like a funny scam that doesn't hurt anyone, I'm 72 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: all about that. But obviously the majority, You're right, it's 73 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: the most American thing to do is to exploit people 74 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: and then benefit from it, you know, Yeah, I mean 75 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: they mostly hurt people. Like I love l Ron Hubbard. 76 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm very on the record about my my 77 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: deep appreciation for that man and his schemes. Um, because 78 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: they're just so I don't love l Ron Hubbard. How 79 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: did you say that with a straight face? He's the 80 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: absolute best. He stole his own baby, He stole his 81 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: own baby. He stole his own baby and made himself 82 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: a god and then had teenagers search for gold in 83 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: the ocean. He was a sick, sick person. He was wonderful. Um, 84 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: Yes he did. He left an unthinkable amount of human 85 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: shrapnel in his wake, but he's so fun to read about. Uh. 86 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: And the guy we're talking about today is a better person. Um. 87 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: And if we're being entirely honest, both of our characters today, 88 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess you could probably if if 89 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: there if they count as among the worst people in history, 90 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: they're on the very low end of that bar. You're 91 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: not you know, mass probably not mass rapists, definitely not 92 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: mass murderers. Um. But they did scam and destroy the 93 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: financial lives of a lot of people, depending on your 94 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: they both targeted rich people, so it's gonna be pretty 95 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: easy to sympathize with both of them. I felt like 96 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: we needed a little bit of a break. Um. And 97 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: I love a good connartist story. That's the thing I'm 98 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: all about, a Robin Hood story. You know, like if 99 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: you're scamming from corporations or very rich people, Like if 100 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: you're scamming Jeff Bezos, keep doing that, you know what 101 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: I mean? Like, I would love you to keep that. Um, 102 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm a robin Hood kind of scammer. I 103 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: like that. Both the guys were talking about today loved 104 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: to portray themselves as robin Hood style characters. They were not. 105 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: They did steal from the rich to give to themselves, 106 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,559 Speaker 1: like and generally more like stell from the upper middle 107 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: class to give to themselves. Um, robin Hood would be 108 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: taking it a bit far. But they're both very entertaining men. 109 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: And we're going to start with the tale of Victor Lustig. 110 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of Victor Lustig? I don't know, 111 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Yeah, he's he's a hoot. So 112 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: Victor was born on January four, probably in Hostine, Austria, Hungary. 113 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: So this is back when you know that country existed 114 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: before they made a series of bad decisions. Why are 115 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: we saying probably, well, because he's a con artist. And 116 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: there's a debate as to whether I mean to be honest. 117 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: Does they also say he's six to there's no hard 118 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: evidence this man was born at all. He definitely existed, 119 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: but we have no idea where he was born. I 120 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: like Sharnes. I like Sharnes comment. So he also say 121 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: six too, and he got his degree from insert faith 122 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: university here. Who are we talking about here? I was 123 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: just teasing about how you can't rely on what people 124 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: like you care, why on the age or whatever, And 125 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: I was just making jokes that men live out their height, 126 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: that's all. Yeah. I mean he he lied about absolutely 127 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: every aspect of his life. And it's probably That's why 128 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: I say probably he claimed for his whole life to 129 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: have been born in haustin Austria, Hungary. There's no evidence 130 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: that he was born there. Um, there's no evidence that 131 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: he was born at all, although he absolutely existed. Um, like, 132 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: there's no evidence of where specifically he was born. I 133 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: should say. That's so interesting when you think about that. Yes, 134 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: it is interesting he covered his Yeah, it's also he 135 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: was born in the eighteen nineties, which is like it 136 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: was a lot easier to cover your ship back then 137 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: because all public records were just like a guy with 138 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: a sheet of paper inside of building downtown and then 139 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: all of Europe burned down several times, so it's a 140 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: lot of people were able to hide ship as a 141 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: result of the World Wars or anything. Yeah, exactly, Like 142 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: it's just a piece of paper with a description of 143 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: you as a baby on it. It's pretty easy to 144 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: to escape back in those days. So the most credible 145 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: version of his early life that we have suggests that 146 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: he was a very intelligent young boy born to a 147 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: nearly impoverished family. UM, something of a genius, and based 148 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: on the rest of his life, I believe this. Like 149 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: obviously he was a narcissist who lied constantly, he was 150 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: also a genius, so I have no no doubt that 151 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: he was a very intelligent boy. Um. He himself described 152 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: his parents, Ludwig and Emma, as quote poor peasant people 153 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: who scraped out a living on a rough land, uh 154 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: in a grim stone house. So these are like poor 155 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: peasants living off the land. And he's a very gifted boy, 156 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: noted by all of his teachers, who have been very intelligent. Again, 157 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: Victor is our source, but you know, his life kind 158 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: of does back this up. And I have no trouble 159 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: seeing him as a brilliant youth who was stifled by 160 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 1: the demands of his peasant life and its lack of opportunity. 161 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: So he's he's smart, he wants more out of life. 162 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: His parents are dirt poor farm and pigship in the 163 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, right, that's kind of the way this 164 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: kid grows up. He must have been bored and somewhat 165 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: desperate as a young man now. According to Victor, his 166 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: parents separated when he was eight because they could not 167 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: afford to take care of him or his older and 168 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: younger sibling. He was sent to live with his father's relatives, 169 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: a situation he found even worse than his previous life. 170 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: By age twelve, he had run away from his second 171 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: home and decided to make a life for himself somewhere 172 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: else in Europe. Within a year, he had made it 173 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: to Budapest, a beautiful and exciting city that offered much 174 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: more in terms of opportunity and stimulation. Victor would later 175 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: tell a secret service agent who was interrogating him that 176 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: one specific event in Budapest inspired his subsequent criminal career. 177 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: In the spring of nineteen o three, he was scavenging 178 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: for food in the dumpster of a Budapest hotel. It 179 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: was nighttime, the moon was out, and he saw a 180 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: young rich woman on the balcony of that hotel wearing 181 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: a golden evening gown. He later recalled to me, she 182 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: was a fairy princess. She was with a man much 183 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: older than she. I saw the waiter come and take 184 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: their order. My mouth began to water because all I 185 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: had had to eat for three weeks had come out 186 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: of garbage cans. So, you know what, I'm already getting 187 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: the bullshit meter. And again he there's good chance he 188 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: grew up poor. He's also a consummate liar. We'll get 189 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: to that in a second. So as he claims, he's 190 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: watching like as from the dumpster, watching this rich couple. 191 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 1: And the food gets delivered, but instead of eating it, 192 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: they leave it on the table. The man pulls out 193 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: a lot of cash, gives it to the more money 194 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: than Victor had ever seen in his whole life, and 195 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: he gives it to the woman, who Victor slowly realized 196 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: was a prostitute um and then the too depart for 197 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: the bedroom, leaving this fancy meal on the table to 198 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: be thrown out. Uh quote. They both got up without 199 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: touching a morsel of that delicious food. What I saw 200 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: that night shattered my faith in women forever. That's the takeaway. Yeah, 201 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: that's the takeaway. That's that's well, that's one of his takeaways. Yeah, 202 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: we can't trust women because some of them are rich 203 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: people wasting ship. It's about women. Some of it's about 204 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: rich people wasting ship, Like it's all of that. Um, 205 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: I don't like that first takeaway at all. No, it's terrible. Again, 206 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: this is a man talking in like the twenties is 207 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: when he's relating a story to a secret service agent. 208 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: So again, this backstory comes courtesy of a criminal being 209 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: interrogated after he was caught for his many crimes talking 210 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: to a cop. So grain assault here, that's very maybe 211 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: I just I'm thinking about this because I just realized 212 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: the last time I heard your voice was and when 213 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: I was listening to the Elita podcast. But that's very like, uh, 214 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: the protagonist name, like, Yeah, the whole book is him 215 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: re talking to someone about his life, and it's just like, 216 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: and that's fully half of this guy's life story. Right. 217 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: We do have objective facts about him because he committed 218 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: a bunch of well documented crimes, but in terms of 219 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,239 Speaker 1: his early life, we're just kind of trusting Victor here. Um. 220 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: And I'm sure there are elements of truth to this, 221 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: because any really good lie is based on elements of truth, 222 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: and he was a good liar. But also he's talking 223 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: to a cop This is the story he gives to 224 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: a cop. Victor claims, in addition to convincing him that 225 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: women could not be trusted, this also convinced him that 226 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: no person with enough money to waste a meal deserved 227 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: to keep their wealth. He dedicated himself batman like to 228 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: relieving the rich from their money from that point forward. 229 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: Not only that, but he would spend the rest of 230 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: his life pursuing beautiful women as many as he could 231 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: sleep with, because obviously they were willing to suck anyone 232 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: with money and he was going to have a lot 233 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: of it. So he takes a couple of lessons out 234 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: of this moment. Moment, Yeah, I agree with you up 235 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: until the beautiful woman thinks to be honest absolutely, like, 236 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: I don't agree. If you're going to waste a meal, 237 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: you shouldn't. You shouldn't be you deserve exactly you. I 238 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: would love to lift some wealth off of the wealthy, 239 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, Like, I agree with that. And then realizing 240 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: at the very end it's just he wants to get 241 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: late a bunch, you know. That's and again, as another spoiler, 242 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: by the time he tells this story, he's the most 243 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: famous con man in America. UM and he is telling 244 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: us to a cop, but he is also telling us 245 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: because he knows this is going to become the public 246 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: story of his life and he wants as much sympathy 247 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: as he can get. And this interrogation where he else 248 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: his life story happens during the apex of the Great Depression. 249 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: Most working people could sympathize with a story like this, Oh, 250 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: he's not a bad like all of the great get 251 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: Like my cousin Pretty Boy, Floyd's whole story is, yeah, 252 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: he robbed banks, but he did it to give money 253 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: to the little people. And there's evidence that he did. 254 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: You can argue a lot of that was him protecting 255 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: himself by making sure that regular people wouldn't want to 256 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: turn him in. Um and that Victor's got a similar 257 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: story a lot of these con artists too, So he's 258 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: trying to frame himself as I'm a crusader for the 259 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: little guy fighting the corrupt rich, you know, I mean, 260 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: if you have the opportunity to leave your own narrative. 261 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: Of course, more like, especially during the time, a good 262 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: card artist would know that, like, people are going to 263 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: sympathize with this, you know, It's it's very layered. It 264 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: still happens. We're selling this. The same week as eight 265 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: women or eight people, including six Asian women, were shot 266 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: to death at a series of massage parlors in Atlanta, 267 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: and the police uncritically reported the shooters claims that, like 268 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: it was, obviously Victor is a much better person than this. 269 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: Victor does not murder anybody. Um, it is the story 270 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: of Okay, law enforcement has caught me. I'm going away. 271 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: But at least if I tell if they repeat the 272 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: story I tell them, maybe I will at least be 273 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: able to like set up a better narrative about myself, 274 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: you know, Um, that's what's happening here as well. Obviously 275 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: a much better person than that. Yeah, I mean thing, 276 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: even thinking about it makes my blood boil. And just 277 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: just the idea that the cops were like, you tell 278 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: us if you were a racist, right, Like I was like, yeah, not, 279 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: Like racists don't decide if they're racist. The racist in 280 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: that case is trying to He's specifically trying to set 281 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: him self up to be more sympathetic for both cops 282 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: and sort of like other white supremacists in Georgia, you know, like, oh, 283 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: he's just a guy with a sexual addiction. And these 284 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: damn you know, these evil interlopers coming into our country, uh, 285 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: fucking up our morals. Victor is playing towards the impoverished 286 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: masses of the Great Depression, being like, look, you guys 287 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: got sucked over by the banks. All I did was 288 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: steal from bankers because as a child starving in the street, 289 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: I knew that I needed to get revenge, you know. Yeah, 290 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: it's smart. He's a very smart man. Um. Yeah, and 291 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: again I should note also profoundly anti woman, although for 292 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: the time I don't think this would have stood out. 293 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: Um because again talking like the twenties and thirties, you know. Um. So, 294 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: I don't doubt though that Victor did spend time poor 295 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: and developed an anger at the wealthy, because he did 296 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: focus on the wealthy his entire career here was not 297 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: conning farmers out of their homes, um, and his frustration 298 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: with the wealthy probably did have an influence on his career. 299 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: I would that there. I would, however, be very shocked 300 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: to hear that the exact story he told during his 301 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: interrogation was true in any way. Um, there's probably aspects 302 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: of truth to it. He was in Budapest, probably, but yeah, 303 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: so Victor claims that his younger brother Emile, had moved 304 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: to Budapest it around the same time and had taken 305 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: to the life of a small time crook, and they're 306 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: both in their early teens at this point. Victor claims 307 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: to have followed after him, starting with simple panhandling and 308 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: moving on to picking pockets, and then to burgling homes 309 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: and businesses, and then finally to the noble trade of 310 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: a street hustler. Have you ever seen one of those 311 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: movies where there's like a guy in New York or 312 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: whatever playing one of those games where you guess which 313 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: cup has the ball in it for money. That's the 314 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: kind of ship Victor was doing, usually with cards. Like 315 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: he was kind of a card shark um and he 316 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: loved doing this kind of thing. He loves street hustling. 317 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: He has fast little hands, and before long he had 318 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: become an expert card shark, learning how to cheat at 319 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: various games in a hundred different ways. It was said 320 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: he could make a deck of cards, quote do everything 321 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: but talk. So he's very good with cards. There's an 322 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: element of performance there, right, like he likes to perform. 323 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: He yea in a different time he might have been 324 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: an actor. He was a good actor. Um, you have 325 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: to be to be this kind of kind artist. So 326 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: he was. However, especially you know, early teens into his 327 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: late teens, he was caught several times. You know, he's 328 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: learning how to do this right, and you're gonna sunk up. 329 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: In nineteen o eight, when he was eighteen, he spent 330 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: two months in a Prague prison for stealing. In November 331 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: of that year, he was arrested in Vienna for larceny, quote, 332 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: attempted false pretenses and being a hobo. So by this 333 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: point we know a few things. The tricks that had 334 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: worked for him in Budapest apparently had not translated well 335 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: to other cities, and as a young adult, Victor was 336 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: not exactly raking in the big bucks. He never gave 337 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: up on being a con man, though, and he spent 338 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: the next four years working a series of schemes in Vienna, Prague, 339 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: in Zurich. He was arrested and jailed for periods in 340 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: all three cities. In nineteen twelve, eventually he made the 341 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: call to move to Paris, where he scammed people in 342 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: bridge and poker and got in trouble over his constant 343 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: flirtation with the girlfriends of his marks. In the book 344 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: Handsome Devil, Jeff Mache writes, quote, he paid too close 345 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: attention to the girlfriend of a French sailor who snapped 346 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: a wineglass from its stem and slashed his handsome face. 347 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: The resulting scar, Lusted would later boast to spell bound 348 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: audiences came from a duel of honor at Heidelberg. So 349 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: he gets he's he's like in a bar being a 350 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: card and he starts like flirting with the girlfriend of 351 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: a French sailor who slashes his fucking face with a 352 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: wide bress just but like further drives home like I 353 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: hate women. I don't know that it does because he 354 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: doesn't is a spelling for the rest of his life. 355 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: He's cheats on women constantly. I don't have any of it. 356 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: He's I don't think he beats them. He's just kind 357 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: of like a sleazy guy. Hate beats Okay, he hates 358 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: Did I say beats on accident? No? No, no, no hate. 359 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: I just I think of, like, I don't know, probably 360 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: he's definitely misogynist. Yeah, I just feel like it's a 361 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: very instell mentality, right, Like he blames the prostitute for 362 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: whatever he saw when he was a kid, apparently, and 363 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: then a woman doesn't like her his coming onto him, 364 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: and she's probably a bit you know, here's here's the thing. 365 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: We'll see how you feel about this. He might have 366 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: been lying about all of that just because he thought 367 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: that Americans were misogynistic enough that that would be a 368 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: productive lae to tell. I don't know, we'll see how 369 00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: you think about it from the because he's he's got 370 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: an he's got a really interesting relationship with his daughter. Interesting, Okay, 371 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: has a daughter daughter. Yeah, and he's he's apparently anyway, 372 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: we'll we'll get to that. So this lie about the 373 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 1: scar in his face is really smart and an example 374 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: of how resource believes. You get slashed into the face, 375 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: you turn it into something that can make you money. 376 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: And having a dueling scar at this time, especially in 377 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: Germanic parts of Europe, was a huge deal. This was 378 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 1: something that if if you went to a school in 379 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: Germany or the Austro Hungarian Empire in particular, if you 380 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: were a noble child, like an aristocrat, you would not 381 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: make it out of college without a facial scar. You 382 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: had to get one, otherwise you would be mocked the 383 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: rest of your life. It was de rigor um. It 384 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: was a thing that you did. In particular, there were 385 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: all these these fencing clubs, dueling clubs in colleges, all 386 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: of the colleges and kind of the Germanic and like 387 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: Eastern European world. And it started just the thing. If 388 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: you're going to be dueling, you're dueling often with live blades, 389 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: you're gonna get slashed. But it became such like a 390 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: There were so any men who got famous who would 391 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: have dueling scars that every man who was anyone had 392 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: to get a dueling scar. And so it would happen 393 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: in these clubs is that young men would mutually agree 394 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: to scar each other and then lie they would like 395 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: slash each other's faces so that they would make sure 396 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: they got out of college with a nice scar on 397 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: their face. If you look at pictures of like officers 398 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: and the German and Austro Hungarian military, um, if the 399 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: early part of World War One in particular, almost all 400 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: of them are going to have some sort of mark 401 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: on their face because it's just like what you did 402 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: at the time. Otherwise you weren't really a man, You 403 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: weren't really a man of class, you know. Um, that's 404 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: interesting and when you learn ship like that, World War 405 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: one makes a lot more sense. Just how like stupidly modular. Yeah, 406 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: we all got to get a scar on our faces. 407 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: That is very that's that's a very good point. Back 408 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: then especially, it was probably just like, yeah, yeah, I 409 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: don't want to be I don't want to be emasculated 410 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: by not having this this wound that shows I can fight. Yeah, 411 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: so this is a good of myself. This, this is 412 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: a big deal for Victor because the fact that he 413 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: gets a facial scar makes it easy for him to 414 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: claim that, especially since he comes from Austria Hungary. Now 415 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: that he's got a facial scar, it makes it easier. 416 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: As long as he dresses nice, nobody's gonna doubt that 417 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,239 Speaker 1: he's an aristocrat, which is kind of becomes a big 418 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: part of his life after this. So this this really 419 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: having this scar. It's like the fact that this he 420 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: gets this scar in a drunken brawl is the best 421 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: thing that could have happened to him. Um So, during 422 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: his time in the bars and brothels of Paris, Victor 423 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: heard lurid stories of the riches and opportunity in the 424 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: United States and what might be one of the first 425 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: signs that he really was brilliant. Victor did not immediately 426 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: commit to moving to the New World. Instead, he started 427 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: booking passage on first class cruise ships, listening that the 428 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: board rich people hanging out on those cruise ships would 429 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: be a captive audience for his scams. So he's like, yeah, 430 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: that's that's exactly what he's doing, right, like and that 431 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: that was a whole a type of guy, like the 432 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: dude and like Jack and Titanic, right, he's like a 433 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: scammer trying to get ship out of rich people on 434 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: the Titanic. There was a whole class of man who 435 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: would do that because there's all these different boats that 436 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: are going from um from Europe to the United States. 437 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: And that's really the best place to call rich people 438 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: out of their money because their board, they've got all 439 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: their cash with them, um, and you're not going to 440 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: if you can get them too, you can con them 441 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: into investing in something in you know, New York or whatever. 442 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: They're not gonna you're gonna have weeks on that boat 443 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: before they realize you're lying to them. Um. It's a 444 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: great place to do a scam. Stewart Donnelly who was 445 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: a con man who worked the same racket later recalled quote. 446 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: Victor had managed to fleece quite a number of smart 447 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: American businessmen, and he did it with a handicap of 448 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: knowing only a few words of English. He was the 449 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: only swindler I ever knew who could do his fast 450 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: talking through an interpreter. And I have to imagine that 451 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: the interpreter was actually something Victor found a way to 452 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: use to his advantage. He would often later in life 453 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: claim to have been a wealthy count, And I can 454 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: see how if he was dressing really well and hiring 455 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: a slick interpreter, he could call rich guys into investments 456 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: and purchases they thought were completely legitimate. Um, just because like, oh, 457 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: there's this rich count and he's got his interpreter who's 458 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: going to like help him make deals. Gives him more credibility, 459 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: gives him more credibility. Yeah, he's good at this. Victor 460 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: took the voyage across the Atlantic and back four times 461 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: before he met the man who would become his mentor, 462 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: Nikki Arnstein. Nikki was an enormous He's like six ft six, 463 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: half German jew from New Jersey. Nikki recognized talent in Victor, 464 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: and rather than try to protect his territory, Nicky took 465 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: the other scammer under his scammy wing. Jeff Mash explains 466 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: the crash course he gave and con artistry quote. You 467 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: always always let the sucker suggest the game, the master explained, 468 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: as the two men leaned on the ship's rail, staring 469 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: out over the vast oat but ocean. He must press 470 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: you to get you to play. Victor copied his mentors 471 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: every move, adopted his fancy clothing and manners, and studied 472 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: his effortless swagger. So he basically goes to con college 473 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: on these boats. He meets this guy is really good 474 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: at it, and like, yeah, it works out well for him. 475 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: The experience got LUSTI thinking about the rules to successful 476 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: conning and trying to actually develop kind of a scientific 477 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: list of what allowed you to con well, and he 478 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: would spend the next several years refining this list. Unfortunately 479 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: for him and unfortunately for a couple of other people, 480 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: World War One started in nineteen fourteen, in part due 481 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: to the aforementioned German rich kids with facial scars. We 482 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: don't know what Victor got up to during the war years, 483 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: but pretty much everyone who studies him seems to agree. 484 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: There's absolutely no way he fought for any side in 485 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: that war, but just not a chance to self serving 486 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: for that. You know who else wouldn't fight in World 487 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 1: War One? Hubbard? No, Hud Debt, Well, no, he fought 488 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: kind of kind of fought world don't defend him. He 489 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: bombed Mexico during World War two? Just stop it? Uh? 490 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: And you know who else would have bombed Mexico during 491 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: World War Two? I was gonna say, Raytheon. Yeah, and 492 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: there's a hell of a lot of weddings in Mexico 493 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: and Raytheon. If there's one thing Raytheon hates, it's a wedding. Uh. 494 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: Good times. This is a very long way for you 495 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: to say those. It is time for ads. We're back, Okay. 496 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: So by the time he was twenty eight years old 497 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: and by the time World War One ended, Victor was 498 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: in New York City, which suggests that all of the 499 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: violence and the evident collapse of the old European social 500 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: order convinced him that the United States was going to 501 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: be a better place to con people for the foreseeable future. 502 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: Moving to the USA had a number of benefits, aside 503 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: from its separation from the violence. For one thing, he'd 504 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: learned English and his time conning rich Europeans meant he 505 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: was already pretty good at pretending to be one of those, 506 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: and so in America, Victor Listig became Count Victor Listick. 507 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: He claimed to have been exiled from his domain due 508 00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: to the fighting in the Balkans. He said he lost 509 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: all of his castles and a revolution now, despite the 510 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: finery with which he draped himself in order to play 511 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: this role, Victor's first u S schemes were distinctly middling 512 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: an ambition. His first was the pocketbook scam. He would 513 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: be friend to Mark on a train or in some 514 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: other transitory point. After talking for a while, the two 515 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: would find a wallet and work together to return it 516 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: to its rightful owner, a wealthy gambler who was also 517 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: Lustig's accomplice in the scheme. Listed would convince his new 518 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: friend to turn down the cash reward from the gambler, 519 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: but agree to let the gambler gamble the cash in 520 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: the wallet on a horse race, and that he and 521 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: his new friend would take the proceeds from that, which 522 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: were expected to be somewhere around twenty five dollars. During 523 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: this process, Listing would get the mark excited one way 524 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: or the other and convince him to add his own 525 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: money to the bet in order to increase the payout. 526 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: At the end of the con Victor would hand his 527 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: friend a bag that was supposed to be full of 528 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: cash but was really full of old newspapers, and then 529 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: of course walk away, pocketing the money and splitting it 530 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: with his partner. So that was his con. Is his 531 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: early first us con a first grift. Yeah. We all 532 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: got to start somewhere, right, You know, before I was 533 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: podcasting professionally, I would just shout at people from street corners. 534 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: Why did you say, before you started podcasting, you still 535 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: do that? Yeah? I love It's an art form shouting 536 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: at people from street corners. It's it's a it's a 537 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: calling in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah, Well it's 538 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: everyone's got to start somewhere, you know, Victor, you, um, yeah, 539 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: at World War One had to start somewhere. Which was 540 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: anybody to bring it back? Yeah? So Victor was arrested 541 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighteen, a little before the war's end, for 542 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: one such pocketbook scheme. He jumped bail rather than go 543 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: to trial and this happened in Kansas City. But even 544 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: though Kansas City is kind of where he it's is 545 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: the first place we have on record of him getting 546 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: in trouble in the US. It also held a prize 547 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: for him the only woman he would ever probably maybe love, 548 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: Roberta Norik. Now. Roberta had grown up in a small 549 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: town in Kansas and after her father's death, had nearly 550 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: been forced into child labor because you know, this is 551 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: that's what you do with kids, as you make them 552 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: work to death if they don't have rich parents. Uh. 553 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: She got out of that barely. And she meets Victor. 554 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: And by the time she meets him, she's like still 555 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: in her late teens. I think she's probably an adult. Um. 556 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: Victor's like a decade older than her. He is much 557 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: more experienced. He's already a veteran con man. So clearly 558 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: there's a power and balance here. Um. And he he 559 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: tells her a bunch of really pretty lies he paints 560 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: he claims to be a count to her. Uh. And 561 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: he paints her a picture that, Oh, if you leave 562 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: with me, we can leave Kansas behind, well, visit the 563 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: great cities of the world. You'll be wealthy and pampered, 564 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: and he's not lying about like he's lying about being 565 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: account but he's not lying about taking her out of 566 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: Kansas and giving her a bunch of fine things. Um, 567 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: they go to Paris immediately, and obviously, like, of course 568 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: she goes with him, right, You're a teenager in rural 569 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: Kansas in nineteen eighteen who's barely escaped slave. Um, Kansas 570 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: is isn't great today, It was even worse back than 571 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: And some dashing European count says, I'm going to give 572 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: you all the finery in the world to take you 573 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: to Europe. Of course you go with him, right, And 574 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure like once you're there, and you're like, oh, 575 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: he wasn't just I'll talk like once you know he 576 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: has money there in Paris. He's got a scar on 577 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: his face and a weird European accent. There's no way 578 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: for her to not know he's account And for a 579 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: while things are great. He buys her elegant dresses, he 580 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: tells her sweet things, and by late nineteen nineteen the 581 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: two were married in New York City. Together, they made 582 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: quite a site at society gatherings. A European count in 583 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: his American countess very few Americans knew enough about where 584 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: the Balkans were or what they were to ask any 585 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: questions about listings supposed domain. Eventually, Victor did come clean 586 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: about the fact that he was not a European count, 587 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: and she does not seem to have cared. She was 588 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: in love with him either way, and just as importantly, 589 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,959 Speaker 1: he had rescued her from a life of Midwestern poverty, 590 00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: and I think pretty much anyone would have made the 591 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: same all in her shoes, like a real one. Of course, 592 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: of course, so for a few blissful years, Victor and 593 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: Roberta conned their way up and down the Eastern seaboard. 594 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: Victor was a contemporary of men like Charles Ponzi, who 595 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: will do an ex episode on someday. Ponzi was an 596 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: immigrant from Italy, and in fact, a lot of American 597 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: convent all of the best ones in this period are 598 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: European pretty much their guys who come here. And maybe 599 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: it's just a matter of like, if you don't grow 600 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: up in American society, you're better able to manipulate it, 601 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: just because you see the culture from a different angle. Um, 602 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. Some of this probably has to do 603 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,239 Speaker 1: with yeah, I think there's I think it also has 604 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that a lot of Americans 605 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: will trust anything a stranger with an accent tells them, 606 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: especially in the nineteen twenties. Yeah, especially if it's like 607 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: like a more western e or like European accent. You know, 608 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: they like far than I am. Count wouldn't lie to me. 609 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: In nineteen twenty two, Roberta and Victor had their first child, 610 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: a daughter. Her name was Betty Gene, but Victor nicknamed 611 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: her Skeezicks for reasons I could explain, but I am 612 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 1: not going to because it's funnier if I don't um. So. 613 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: This was broadly a good time for the family, but 614 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: the law was never very far behind them, and as 615 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: a result, Skeezis grew up with a father who constantly 616 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: warned her about the man. He taught her Morse code 617 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: so that if they got questioned, he could tap the 618 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: message do not talk into her hand and she would 619 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: know to shut up, which is pretty cool. I mean, 620 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: you're not wrong, cool, but creepy is what's her name? 621 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: The nickname Betty Jane. The nickname is sk sis sis Jesus. 622 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: What do you want to guess? Why she's got that nickname. 623 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: Just give me a guess, sez its um, it's not 624 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: actually that funniest story, but I want to know what 625 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: your guests would be. I don't even know the sez 626 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: It's maybe she's what is say it again? Sis, I'm 627 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: saying it right? Um? Maybe she uh. I saw a 628 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: pair of skis at a shot and she was like 629 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: that was her first word she saw the skis. I 630 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: gotta have a ski, Papa ski. And then he was like, 631 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: you know what for you where you're gonna have Let's 632 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: just pretend that's the truth and move on. Tell me truth. 633 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,719 Speaker 1: It's it's a character from a comic strip called Gasoline 634 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: Alley that was popular at the time. Characters like a 635 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: baby who's found in a bassinet by one of the 636 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: characters in the comic. I never read Gasoline Alley. I 637 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: think it was a big influence on Bill Waterson, the 638 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: guy who did um uh capolent Hobbs was one of 639 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: the first great really popular newspaper. Yes, nobody, nobody would 640 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: um it's funny or if you don't know the truth 641 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: is just like, oh, he liked this comic. He named 642 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: his daughter after the character. Yeah. Now, Victor having grown 643 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: up poor had vowed that his daughter would never eat 644 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: from the trash, is he ad uh? And he kept 645 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: this promise. His daughter would spend her life wearing fine furs, 646 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: going to private schools uh. And it is unclear the 647 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: extent to which Victor came clean to his wife about 648 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: his background. She definitely knew he was a con man, 649 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: but she seems to have believed for some time that 650 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: he was also a count. Um Now, Lustig was, if 651 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: nothing else, consistent about maintaining his cover. When he would 652 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: make friends and new cities, he would forbid them from 653 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: sharing gossip or telling dirty jokes around him. He treated 654 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: all women as ladies in the European sense, and he 655 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: acted with the kind of dignified air that Americans expected 656 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: from their nobility. So when he pretends to be a noble, 657 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: he's not hamming it up. He's very reserved and restrained, 658 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: and he's very consistent about the performance that he puts on. 659 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: Part the way, it's like this guy is a very 660 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: good actor. He goes method on this ship. Um. He 661 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: will like like people will like tell jokes that he'll 662 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: be playing cards with a group of shady characters and 663 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: we'll say something dirty and he'll yell it'll be like, 664 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: you don't I am like, you don't say those words 665 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: around me. I'm a nobleman, you know. Um deep deep 666 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: scale deep scam with a dud or defeat. Count Listig 667 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: increased the grandiosity of his schemes. The year she was born, 668 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: he presented himself to a bank in New York, pretending 669 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: to own a company that wanted to buy land to 670 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: make a chemical plant. He goes to his banks like, 671 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: I need some land. The banker shows him a plot 672 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: of land that is completely worthless because he thinks like 673 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: this European doesn't know the value of any land. And 674 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: sure enough, Count Listig agrees to pay twenty five dollars 675 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: for this useless land. Um. So they agree to do 676 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: the deal, but Listing tells the banker he could only 677 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: pay in a fifty thou dollar liberty bond. So he's like, 678 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: I'll give you this fifty dollar bond, you'll give me 679 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: twenty granded cash. That seems like a good deal, right, 680 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: And the president of the bank agrees. So while they're 681 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: settling out the paperwork, so like he gives the liberty 682 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: bond to the banker. The banker gives him the cash. 683 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: He puts the liberty bond in a in a like 684 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: a filing cabinet behind him, and while they're settling on 685 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,919 Speaker 1: the paperwork, Listing fakes a heart attack, so the bank 686 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: president runs out to fetch help, and Listing opens the 687 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,479 Speaker 1: file cabinet and takes the original liberty bond back out. 688 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: Then he closes it and departs for his cab to 689 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: see medical aid and just fleece town with his family, 690 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: having taken both the liberty bond and grade in cash 691 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: for the bank. That is not where I thought the 692 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: story was headed. Yeah, is incredible, wonderful scam. I also 693 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: just this should be a video podcast sometimes only because 694 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: when you say things, my face is contorts most like 695 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm just speechless. But yeah, that is elaborate, and you 696 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: know what, I respect it and you kind of respect it. 697 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: And his his daughter. We have a number of interviews 698 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: from his daughter, and she she would for her whole 699 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: life stick to the idea that her father's her father 700 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: was a con man, yes, but his victims were the 701 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: real villains. Um she described them using. His language is 702 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: researched MISCREANTSS and he's researches the people he calls to 703 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: make sure they deserve it. His cons were then a 704 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: good deed to uncover their misdeeds. Um. And in the 705 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: case of this banker, it was he's trying. He was 706 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: trying to ski him, this poor European and out of like, 707 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: out of twenty grand to buy a worthless plot of land. 708 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: He needed to be hurt, you know, he needed to 709 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: have his money taken, and it was ensured anyway, which 710 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: is fair. It was. That's why it's again never immoral 711 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: to rob a bank. Um, you said it, I said, 712 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: of course, we have a T shirt that says it. Um. Sorry, 713 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: I'm not cut up on your merch, Robert, thank you. 714 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: There are always rob ensured banks. T shirts are very popular. Um. 715 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: So yeah. And she has a little bit of a 716 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: point here. Victor's cons did always center around exploiting the 717 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: greed of his marks um, and that is one of 718 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: the reasons why it's easier to be sympathetic with him. 719 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: He was not. He was not like getting a conning 720 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of like poor people into getting in like 721 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: a Ponzi scheme or something. Um. He was he was 722 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: stealing from bankers and ship most of the time, and 723 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: in gamblers and whatnot. Um, so yeah, I don't know. 724 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: It was Victor's next great con that truly elevated him 725 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: to the level of a legend. He took a pile 726 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: of his ill gotten winnings and exchanged them for fifty 727 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: thou dollars and freshly minted banknotes with serial numbers in 728 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,240 Speaker 1: sequential order, and then, using like a razor blade and stuff, 729 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 1: he would painstakingly set to work scraping off the last 730 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: digit of each serial number and replacing it so that 731 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: all five hundred bills five hundred dollar bills had the 732 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: exact same serial number on them, so they appeared to 733 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: be identical bills. Right, we get where we're going so far? Okay. 734 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: Listed been paid a wood worker to make a series 735 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: of small boxes two ft long, nine inches wide and 736 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: a foot deep. All the boxes had bronze knobs and 737 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: dials which did nothing, and they were weighted with lead 738 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 1: so that they would feel heavy and thus valuable. In 739 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: doing this, Listed was appropriating an old scheme created by 740 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: a British con man called the Roumanian money box scheme. 741 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: Victor brought it to the US, but he added a 742 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: commitment to detail that made it truly special. So he 743 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: would start this con the way all goods cons do start. 744 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: He would meet some guy and like somebody with money, 745 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: usually like a wealthy business owner, and over course of 746 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: some small talk, establish a baseline of trust and understanding. 747 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: Then at some point in the conversation he would ask 748 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: his mark, you've heard of Himile Debray right now? They hadn't, 749 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: because Emil Debray never existed, But Listing would explain that 750 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: Dubray was a genius from Serbia who was quote a 751 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: little unbalanced. Uh. And he would go for the I'm 752 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: gonna read like, we have an exact copy of his 753 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: spield that he gives to the secret Service, So I'm 754 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 1: gonna read that. Now this is him what he would 755 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: tell his marks about this fake person, Emile Debray. Emile 756 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: Debray was in Sarajevo on that fateful day in nineteen 757 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: fourteen when Archduke Francis was assassinated. In fact, there was 758 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: some suspicion he wasn't on the plot, for he was 759 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: a Serb patriot. In any event, the Central Powers captured him, 760 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: but instead of putting him in prison, they took him 761 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: to Berlin and installed him in a luxurious apartment stocked 762 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: with vintage wines and a quite delicious housemaid, and gave 763 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: him the facilities of their most modern laboratory. He had 764 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 1: only one instruction, produce a quick, full proof method, full 765 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: proof method of duplicating four in currency. You see, as 766 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 1: the German armies overran the low countries, they had to 767 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: maintain them, and they wished to use British and French 768 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: and Dutch Dutch currency rather than their own. So at 769 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: this point in the scam list it would take out 770 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: the box, which he would claim was an evolution of 771 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: Dubray's chemical method of duplicating currency that he developed for 772 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: the Germans. He'd say that the genius had only completed 773 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: his research at the very end of the war, so 774 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: Germany never had a chance to use it. The inventor 775 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: had grown frightened that he'd be executed as a collaborator, 776 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: and of course he'd gone to the count's like Count 777 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: Listig's royal father, and his father had taken Debray in 778 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: and protected him. Debray had died soon after the war, 779 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: and Listic had found the formula for this money duplicating 780 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,720 Speaker 1: box in the man's possessions and he'd crafted this box 781 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: to the inventor's specifications. At this point, Listig would take 782 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,240 Speaker 1: a real hundred dollar bill one of his clone notes 783 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: out of the box. He'd put in a blank piece 784 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: of white currency paper with it, and then he would 785 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: turn a crank on the box. He would tell his 786 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: mark that machine worked by using a radium roller, and 787 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 1: since radium was so expensive, the boxes cost fifty dollars 788 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: each just to as symbol. He would then claim that 789 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: the way the special chemical process worked would allow men 790 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: to make perfect duplicates of any bank note or liberty 791 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: bond in circulation. It just took eighteen twelve to eighteen 792 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: hours for the copy to be fully printed. Showing a 793 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: true commitment to the scheme, lest It would wait with 794 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: his mark into the until the new bill was ready. 795 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: Using sleight of hand, he'd replaced the blank paper with 796 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: one of his identical hundred dollar cloned bills. The mark 797 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 1: would then walk away, convinced he'd seen Listing duplicate perfectly 798 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: a hundred dollar bill. To further submit his legitimacy, he 799 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: would go with them to the bank to cash the 800 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,319 Speaker 1: cloned bill, and since the bills were legitimates, save for 801 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: the serial number. The clerks never noticed anything. MOSTI would 802 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: then sell the box to the mark, and of course 803 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: the mark would immediately put a blank like currency paper 804 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: in there. And but he'd have to start that twelve 805 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: to eighteen hour like waiting period, which would good lusted, 806 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: plenty of lustig, plenty of time to escape with the 807 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: money that they'd given him. Uh. Well, it's a pretty 808 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: great con right. That is an elaborate asspot And again 809 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: I respect it. He's not a lazy con man. That 810 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: is a lot of work. That is groundwork. You know, 811 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: you gotta respect the groundwork, the fucking labor. Uh. He 812 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 1: thought about everything. He thought about everything, Like he established 813 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: his trust. He stays with them. You know, he goes 814 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,280 Speaker 1: to the bank with them. There's no way he's gonna scam, 815 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: you know this. Not this guy looks at how much work. 816 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: This has to be legitimate. Yeah, So he sold boxes. 817 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: This was a very successful scheme. He made a fortune 818 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: off of this. He sold boxes for varying prices, like 819 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: kind of whatever they would put in. He'd be like, well, 820 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: i'm your friend. You know it costs me this much, 821 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 1: but I okay, I have extras. I'll give you whatever 822 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: it like you can. So he sold one for forty 823 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: three thousand dollars to the owners of a pool hall 824 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: in Montana. He sold another for ten thousand dollars to 825 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: merchants in Chicago, one grand to a cans and businessman. 826 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 1: A crime syndicate in New York paid forty six thousand 827 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,720 Speaker 1: for one, and a banker and Lafornia paid a hundred thousand. 828 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: Just like, that's like a million dollars in this time 829 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: he is making. He would have to leave town every time, right, yes, absolutely, 830 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: he immediately books at the funk out of there. And 831 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: is he with his family during this time? Like they 832 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: we'll talk about sometimes often he had We'll talk about 833 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,839 Speaker 1: this a little bit later. The best thing about this 834 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: scam from a con man's point of view is that 835 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,720 Speaker 1: very few of his victims could go to the police 836 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: because doing so it did mean admitting that they had 837 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: intended to counterfeit US currency. I mean everything. It's a 838 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: great scam. It's really great scamp. It's really great. It's 839 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: so good respect that your respect. I hate to say it, 840 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it's very very good. One of his 841 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: marks did catch him once, but hilariously, the man was 842 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: so convinced that the box was real that he thought 843 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 1: he had fucked up the machine by turning the crank 844 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 1: early and as soon he says like, man, I'm so like, 845 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: I'm glad I caught you. I'm so sorry I turned 846 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,280 Speaker 1: it early and it didn't work incally. Oh, you idiot, 847 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,280 Speaker 1: you've destroyed the machine. You have to give me another 848 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: twenty five grand for a new box. Oh my god, 849 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: he's so good at this. Yeah, he is amazing. He 850 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: was only arrested once for the scheme, and he likely 851 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: escaped conviction that time by bribing the cops with some 852 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: of the fortune that he had accumulated at that point. 853 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: Listig spent his money as quickly as he made it. 854 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: Of course, he could lose tens of thousands of dollars 855 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: in a manner of days gambling. Uh, and he also 856 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: developed a penchant for setting up well, we'll talk about 857 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: his secret family later. By Victor, Listig was at the 858 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: absolute height of his powers. He had paid his tailor 859 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: to sew fifteen thousand dollars into the lining of his 860 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: suit so he'd have cash to bribe his way out 861 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,879 Speaker 1: of emergencies. When he was arrested for swindling a real 862 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: estate man out of ten thousand dollars. Listick was sent 863 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 1: to a jail that he immediately broke out of, and 864 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: we don't know how he broke out of. It said 865 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:54,840 Speaker 1: that he broke out of a bunch of jails. The 866 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: reality he's probably just paying people, like he was just 867 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: bribing guards and stuff to get out. Money talks, money talks, 868 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: money talks, and a good current artist walks. That was 869 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: very good. Wait did you just make that up? Thank you? 870 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: Thank you? Are you about to do a really cool 871 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 1: I mean it was like the perfect It was a 872 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: perfect time. You know what else walks the good people 873 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: at Raitheon, because it is not a crime to sell 874 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 1: weapons of war if you are raytheon we're back from 875 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: outer space. So by nineteen Victor Lustig is like he's 876 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 1: he's doing the best that he's ever been doing. And 877 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: it was around this period that Victor, who was probably 878 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: the premier con man of at least the United States, 879 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: maybe the whole western world, it authored a list of 880 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: rules that he believed all successful con men ought to follow. 881 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: These are like his Tin Commandments of Conning, Motherfucker's. Here's 882 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 1: how they were reported in an article I found in 883 00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian magazine. Quote be a patient center. It is this, 884 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: not fast talking, that gets a con man his coups. 885 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: Number two never look bored. Number three. Wait for the 886 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: other person to reveal any political opinions, then agree with them. 887 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: Number four. Let the other person reveal religious views, then 888 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 1: have the same ones. Number five hint at sex talk, 889 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: but don't follow it up unless the other person, unless 890 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:27,479 Speaker 1: the other fellow shows a strong interest. Number six. Never 891 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,760 Speaker 1: discuss illness unless some special concern is shown. Number seven 892 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 1: never pry into a person's personal circumstances. They'll tell you 893 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: all eventually. Number eight never boast, Just let your importance 894 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 1: be quietly obvious. Number nine never be untidy, and number 895 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:50,520 Speaker 1: ten never get drunk. Good good rules for conning people. Yeah, 896 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly not bad rules for being a journalist. 897 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: Not because do you want them to do you want 898 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 1: to just mirror them? You know you want you have 899 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,719 Speaker 1: to feel comfortable in every way, so you don't you 900 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,240 Speaker 1: wait for them to share information, then you just agree 901 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 1: with it. Yeah. Well, and I mean that part is 902 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,800 Speaker 1: not the good journalism stuff, but the never look board 903 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 1: wait for the other person to reveal things. Um don't 904 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: pry into their personal circumstances, Like what about don't drink it? Yeah, no, absolutely, 905 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 1: you drink when you're writing, you drink when you're recovering 906 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: from doing journalism. You don't want to be drunk conducting 907 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: an interview. It's not helpful. Um, sometimes you might have 908 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,839 Speaker 1: a beer or two because like sometimes you that's that's 909 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 1: the circumstances in which you're conversing with the person. And 910 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 1: if they don't drink, But don't you think like there 911 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 1: is an element if you are if you know, if 912 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:40,840 Speaker 1: you know that you're gonna be talking to someone that 913 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 1: maybe it has a different view than you, you're not 914 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,359 Speaker 1: gonna just straight out say you have a different view. 915 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 1: You're just gonna let them share and just like not right, Yeah, 916 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: well you're going to share. You ask them, You ask 917 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: them questions when those questions are relevant. You don't need 918 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: to disagree with them because that's not your job in 919 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 1: that instance. Yeah, but yeah, no, I mean this is 920 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: just good, Like he's he's right about all of this. 921 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: None of this is like yeah, very reasonable stuff. Yeah. Now, 922 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 1: Listen shared his success with his family, buying his wife 923 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 1: and daughter whatever they desired and filling cash boxes at 924 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,960 Speaker 1: various banks with money for them. He also acquired a mistress, 925 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: Ruth Etting, who was a famous singer at the time. 926 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,880 Speaker 1: Victor kept his wife and his daughter out of his 927 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: life on the road as much as possible. He justified 928 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 1: this to them by claiming that they needed to be 929 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,799 Speaker 1: hidden both from his marks and from the laft for 930 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: their own protection. He hired a bodyguard and a maid 931 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,880 Speaker 1: to watch over them while he was away, which had 932 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: the added benefit of ensuring his by now very suspicious 933 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,919 Speaker 1: wife was always watched by two employees who answered to him. 934 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: And of course he is fucking around constantly on them. 935 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: And he keeps his family a secret from this is 936 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: like his secret family. Most people who meet the Count 937 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,480 Speaker 1: don't know that he has a wife and kid um, 938 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 1: so his actual wife and child are his secret family. 939 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: But he has a string of mistresses and he also 940 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: sleeps with a tone of prostitutes that he meets at 941 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: various bronthlos because brathlos are the best place to meet 942 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,280 Speaker 1: rich people that you can con right. And his trips 943 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 1: to brothels there was a pleasure aspect. It was also 944 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,719 Speaker 1: a business aspect because, as he later recalled quote, there 945 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,879 Speaker 1: is no better place to find a mark than at 946 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: a madam's. They are the best people in the world 947 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: to point out a mark to you. They know them all. 948 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,839 Speaker 1: Like again, you find him Adam at a brothel, she's 949 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,279 Speaker 1: gonna know who's got money and who is dumb, you know, 950 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:26,000 Speaker 1: like yeah, like that's that's as like. And also and 951 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,399 Speaker 1: also networking. And he's getting late, although I don't think 952 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,760 Speaker 1: he pays off. And he's a very good looking, charming 953 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: man and he's making the money. So my guess is 954 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: that a lot of this was just like ship, we're 955 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,880 Speaker 1: both in deconning rich guys, and you're hot, let's do it. 956 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,319 Speaker 1: You know, how good looking I want to see? I mean, 957 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,359 Speaker 1: I don't think is by modern standards, but yeah, he was. 958 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 1: He was considered to be very handsome. So most of 959 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: the pictures we have of him are older when he 960 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 1: was kind of balding. But he's got a very he's 961 00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: got a very like distinctive face. Um. And again, most 962 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,359 Speaker 1: people at the time, okay, here's a decent one. Yeah, 963 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,080 Speaker 1: and most people at the time considered him handsome. He's 964 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,360 Speaker 1: got like a nice, nice jawline and stuff. Um. The 965 00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:10,839 Speaker 1: standards were lower in the twenties. Uh yeah, so yeah. 966 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,760 Speaker 1: This tactic, his tactic like kind of going into brothels 967 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,000 Speaker 1: and using them to find Marx, eventually led him to 968 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,240 Speaker 1: fall in love with yet another woman, Billy May Schibel, 969 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: a famous Philadelphia madam, and I'm gonna quote from the 970 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,040 Speaker 1: book Handsome Devil here about their relationship. She handed Listing 971 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: the menu a book of nudes. These girls toiled day 972 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,000 Speaker 1: and night, earning Sibel two hundred and fifty thousand dollars 973 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,759 Speaker 1: a year. Listing soon discovered Pittsburgh's Grand Duchess Advice had 974 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,280 Speaker 1: piqued his interest. Naturally listed contor using his money making machine, 975 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,520 Speaker 1: but Schibel tracked him down rather impressively to a hotel 976 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,600 Speaker 1: room in another city. There, Listing did something he'd never 977 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,560 Speaker 1: done before. He gave the money back. Sibel was everything. 978 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,800 Speaker 1: His homemaking wife, Roberta was not. Loud, body sharp as attack. 979 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: They shared an innate desire to exploit American greed to 980 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: separate those of high net worth and low more world 981 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 1: value from their cash Lustig and Scheibel became lovers and 982 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,720 Speaker 1: partners in crime, maintaining apartments on New York's Park Avenue 983 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: Chicago's Lakeshore drive and a mansion in Beverly Hills, the 984 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:15,279 Speaker 1: homes Lustig's wife yearned for. So he yeah, this this 985 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,279 Speaker 1: is maybe more maybe his soul mate. Right, Like he 986 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: gives the money back that he cons because he's so impressed. 987 00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,319 Speaker 1: How good at this woman is at conning people, and 988 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: they go on a conning spree they buy the houses 989 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,840 Speaker 1: that he'd always promised his actual wife. Um, it's a 990 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,960 Speaker 1: bummer of a tale in some ways, but like this 991 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,840 Speaker 1: is he does seem to really love this woman. He's 992 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,719 Speaker 1: low key and romantic, you know, like that's he met 993 00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:40,880 Speaker 1: her and he was like you're you get me. He 994 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,280 Speaker 1: was smooth as hell. Like Yeah. Now, Victor stayed married 995 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,799 Speaker 1: to his wife, but emotionally and largely physically, he abandoned 996 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,640 Speaker 1: her at this point. Now, he did not do that 997 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,439 Speaker 1: abandon her financially. He kept her and his daughter well 998 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 1: supplied with money. But the whirlwind romance that had swept 999 00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 1: Roberta out of Kansas was over. One night, he had 1000 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 1: a dates edjeweled with his wife, but he forgot to 1001 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 1: pick her up at the hotel for an elaborate planned 1002 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 1: night out. She drank all the wine alone and when 1003 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,520 Speaker 1: he finally arrived she screamed at him. By the end 1004 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 1: of nine, the two were divorced. His daughter never understood, 1005 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: later asking how could a man who had so often 1006 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 1: vowed eternal love for his wife, whom he really loved, 1007 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,799 Speaker 1: have an affair with another woman. She's a bummer now 1008 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,200 Speaker 1: While Roberta headed into an unhappy marriage with some other guy, 1009 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,520 Speaker 1: Victor sent his daughter off to an expensive convent boarding 1010 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,759 Speaker 1: school near Pittsburgh. Now he was, it must be said, 1011 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,959 Speaker 1: a doting father, and he visited her constantly. He also 1012 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,600 Speaker 1: formed a deep friendship with the mother Superior, who he 1013 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,279 Speaker 1: bought expensive jewelry for in spite of the fact that 1014 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,759 Speaker 1: she could not wear it. Betty said that her father 1015 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,880 Speaker 1: loved the nuns but hated the priests because they pressured 1016 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,799 Speaker 1: the nuns to do bullshit work around the church. So 1017 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,479 Speaker 1: kind of an interesting little detail about him. I feel 1018 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,640 Speaker 1: like he just always plays like I like the underdog here. Yeah, 1019 00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,440 Speaker 1: he's he's definitely like has a has a has a 1020 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,280 Speaker 1: has a thing for that. In May of Night eighteen 1021 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 1: twenty five, his marriage like this is back when his 1022 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 1: marriage is on the rocks a little bit before he 1023 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,680 Speaker 1: gets divorced, Victor headed back to Paris by luxury steamer 1024 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,640 Speaker 1: with one of the true few men he would ever 1025 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:14,719 Speaker 1: trust as a partner, Dapper Dan Collins Collins, Dapper Dan, 1026 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,560 Speaker 1: Dapper Dan, that's his nickname. Dapper Dan Collins. Dapper Dan 1027 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,439 Speaker 1: was an infamous trickster. He'd started off his working life 1028 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,120 Speaker 1: as a lion tamer and a bicycle writer in the circus, 1029 00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,839 Speaker 1: but had graduated to counterfeiting, fitting and eventually running rum 1030 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,080 Speaker 1: into the United States during Prohibition via a submarine he 1031 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,640 Speaker 1: piloted from the Bahamas to Philly. This is Dapper Dan 1032 00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 1: is a fascinating man, definitely more of a piece of 1033 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,640 Speaker 1: ship than Victor. He cons a lot of women who 1034 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,120 Speaker 1: don't have much like. He's a I don't know if 1035 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,120 Speaker 1: you call him the sexual predator, but definitely takes significant 1036 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,360 Speaker 1: sexual like uses sex to take financial advantage of women, 1037 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,640 Speaker 1: which Victor does not do. He definitely lies and cheets 1038 00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 1: on women constantly. He always pays them well, he's never 1039 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,279 Speaker 1: stealing from them, So I don't know. I don't know 1040 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,200 Speaker 1: how that I think morally. Dapper Dan is a creepier 1041 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,200 Speaker 1: guy than Victor. Um. Neither of them are very good men. 1042 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,160 Speaker 1: The two traveled to Paris intent on pulling off a 1043 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,960 Speaker 1: big deal, but without a clear idea of what precisely 1044 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,600 Speaker 1: it would be. After a few days of walking around 1045 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,399 Speaker 1: and plotting, the count figured it out. He was going 1046 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,120 Speaker 1: to sell the Eiffel Tower. Now, of course the building already. Yes, 1047 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:28,720 Speaker 1: I don't understand. Every time I'm more surprised, like I 1048 00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:33,760 Speaker 1: sell the Eiffel Towers, sell the Eiffel Tower. On that's 1049 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,280 Speaker 1: all of the great con artists have leaps of evolution 1050 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,919 Speaker 1: like that, lu Hub. I'm gonna I'm gonna write pulp 1051 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:43,360 Speaker 1: stories for cheap little comic books, and then I'm gonna 1052 00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: create a new mental science, and then I have become 1053 00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:52,239 Speaker 1: the prophet of my own religion. I just respect. He 1054 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:57,600 Speaker 1: just has a man crush on Alron, you know. Really, 1055 00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,040 Speaker 1: it's the way he stole his own baby that that 1056 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,279 Speaker 1: impressed me most. That's a that's a that's a champion move. 1057 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,040 Speaker 1: Not a lot of people. He's a horrible he's able person. 1058 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,600 Speaker 1: You've got to respect. The grift, is what you're saying. 1059 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,279 Speaker 1: I like the way he made all of those young 1060 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,680 Speaker 1: people live on boats for ten years and search for 1061 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,879 Speaker 1: gold that he buried in past lives. I mean, yeah, 1062 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:24,919 Speaker 1: that's funny. Now he would throw them off the boat 1063 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,719 Speaker 1: when he got bored because he was lunatic. I love 1064 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,320 Speaker 1: the man, Robert. I want everyone to know, has the 1065 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,160 Speaker 1: biggest smile I've ever seen. He talks about Hubbard, he 1066 00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,440 Speaker 1: looks so happy. It is story. Can you please let 1067 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,480 Speaker 1: the listeners know what my face looks like right now? Sophie, 1068 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,160 Speaker 1: she has she's concerned, she's disappointed, she's shaking her head. 1069 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,200 Speaker 1: I'm bummed out whenever I realized that we've covered l 1070 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,839 Speaker 1: Run Hubbard in such detail that there's really nothing left 1071 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,239 Speaker 1: for me to say about him on this show. But 1072 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 1: you still do. But I mean, I'm always thinking about him. 1073 00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,880 Speaker 1: To stick with Koresh, Robert, that was a better ta 1074 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,400 Speaker 1: I do love. I do love David Koresh and his 1075 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,560 Speaker 1: incredible cum gutters. But that is a story for another 1076 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:13,120 Speaker 1: day or for the HBO miniseries um where we were 1077 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:20,000 Speaker 1: the Eiffel Tower. So Victor Lust goes to Paris looking 1078 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,000 Speaker 1: for a con right. He and his friend go there, 1079 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 1: Dapper Dan, and they know they're gonna scam, but they 1080 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,160 Speaker 1: don't know what scam they're gonna do. And they spent 1081 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,000 Speaker 1: a couple of days just kind of walking around talking 1082 00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 1: to people, getting the light of the land, and Victor 1083 00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,440 Speaker 1: keeps seeing the Eiffel Tower in the skyline and he's like, 1084 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna fucking sell that to somebody, because he's he rules, 1085 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,479 Speaker 1: that's ambitious, that is ambitious, and he's invincible. At that point, 1086 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,080 Speaker 1: he does right, like he's like, I could do anything. 1087 00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,320 Speaker 1: I can sell the Eiffel Tower. Fuck it. So I 1088 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:49,759 Speaker 1: should note that at the time, the idea that the 1089 00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,239 Speaker 1: Eiffel Tower would be for sale was not as preposterous 1090 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,920 Speaker 1: as it seems now. The Eiffel Tower was built for 1091 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,399 Speaker 1: the eighteen eighty nine World's Fair, and at the time 1092 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,960 Speaker 1: it was the tallest wrought iron billing on earth. It 1093 00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 1: was hated by the art community in Paris for being 1094 00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:05,920 Speaker 1: a threat to the art and history of France and 1095 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,840 Speaker 1: a slight upon the hitherto untouched beauty of Paris. It 1096 00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:14,480 Speaker 1: was very unpopular with like I have an art history miner, 1097 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,239 Speaker 1: I should have I should have remembered this sooner. But 1098 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,800 Speaker 1: it's like it was represented of this like really cold 1099 00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:24,919 Speaker 1: metal industrial things. Yeah, And the reason it had gotten 1100 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:26,919 Speaker 1: greenlit and big part was that, like we talked about 1101 00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,440 Speaker 1: this in the Krup episodes the late eighteen hundreds, early 1102 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,239 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, everybody is like making as many things out 1103 00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:37,279 Speaker 1: of steel? Is the possibly it's the industrial revolution. Yeah, like, 1104 00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 1: look at what we can do. Look at how big 1105 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,040 Speaker 1: an iron building we can we can make um. So 1106 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,279 Speaker 1: the building was unpopular with a lot of folks, and 1107 00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,440 Speaker 1: by nine it was also badly in need of repairs. 1108 00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:52,440 Speaker 1: Listigs con revolved around convincing the right man that the 1109 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,160 Speaker 1: government had decided not to repair it. His mark, he decided, 1110 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: would be an iron monger, someone in the salvage business 1111 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,560 Speaker 1: with a lot of cats. The Count and his partner 1112 00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,120 Speaker 1: would convince the right man that the tower was being 1113 00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,160 Speaker 1: torn back down and the city was soliciting bids for 1114 00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,600 Speaker 1: people who would salvage the scrap metal once it was destroyed. 1115 00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:12,160 Speaker 1: So that's the way in which he was selling it, 1116 00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:13,920 Speaker 1: is like they're gonna tear it down. There's gonna be 1117 00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,560 Speaker 1: all this perfectly usable scrap metal. Who's going to buy it? Right? Like, 1118 00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,680 Speaker 1: you've got an opportunity to get a lot of of 1119 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:23,120 Speaker 1: scrap iron here for a good price. The Smithsonian writes 1120 00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:27,320 Speaker 1: about the next stage in this con quote listed commissioned 1121 00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,720 Speaker 1: to stationary carrying the official French government seal. Next, he 1122 00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,520 Speaker 1: presented himself at the front desk of the Hotel de Creon, 1123 00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,800 Speaker 1: a stone palace on the Palace de la Concorde. From there, 1124 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,280 Speaker 1: pretending to be a French government official, Listing wrote to 1125 00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,160 Speaker 1: the top people in the French scrap metal industry, inviting 1126 00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,520 Speaker 1: them to a hotel for a meeting. Because of engineering faults, 1127 00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,720 Speaker 1: costly repairs and political problems, I cannot discuss, the tearing 1128 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:52,000 Speaker 1: down of the Eiffel Tower has become mandatory. He reportedly 1129 00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:54,479 Speaker 1: told them in a quiet hotel room, the tower would 1130 00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,920 Speaker 1: be sold to the highest bidder. He announced, his audience 1131 00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:02,280 Speaker 1: was captivated and their bids flowed in. Now, listen, I 1132 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,320 Speaker 1: was gonna say that it really is a huge benefit 1133 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,960 Speaker 1: to like conning people. Was so much easier without the Internet, 1134 00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,480 Speaker 1: without being able to confirm things, even with good telephone 1135 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,640 Speaker 1: service or telegraphs wherever the fun they had back then, 1136 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,920 Speaker 1: Like it's just of course you're gonna look at an 1137 00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:22,880 Speaker 1: official seat, like you know what I mean, it's yeah, 1138 00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:28,240 Speaker 1: guy with an accent, he's dressed well, he has money. Yeah, 1139 00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:30,960 Speaker 1: you know, Like it's of course it's easy to do that. 1140 00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:33,560 Speaker 1: It's like it's like how easy it is for murderers 1141 00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,280 Speaker 1: to get away with it before. DNA is the same 1142 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,919 Speaker 1: same thing. It's not hard for them. Now about half 1143 00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,600 Speaker 1: of murderers do get away with it in the United States. 1144 00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,280 Speaker 1: It's something like that. But yeah, like you said that 1145 00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,320 Speaker 1: with a smile. But continue, Look, I mean we canna 1146 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,600 Speaker 1: talk about stumping some day anyway. Um Listig pretended that 1147 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,560 Speaker 1: he was the deputy director of the French Ministry of 1148 00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,720 Speaker 1: the Post and Telegraph. This was another brilliant move. If 1149 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: he pretended to be too high ranking, his marks might 1150 00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:00,960 Speaker 1: have recognized the lie. Right, you pretend I'm the head 1151 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,160 Speaker 1: of the French ministry, Well they might know that guy's name, 1152 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:04,520 Speaker 1: you know, just kind of like how you know that 1153 00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:05,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people know that the head of the 1154 00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,480 Speaker 1: Department of education. Do you know the deputy deputy director 1155 00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:12,800 Speaker 1: of Department of Education? Probably not? Um so Uh. The 1156 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,360 Speaker 1: whole scam was as meticulous as you would expect from 1157 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,160 Speaker 1: a guy like Listing, right, that's his whole thing, is 1158 00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,600 Speaker 1: he He is meticulous in his preparations. So for example, 1159 00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,800 Speaker 1: he made sure they were really fancy refreshments. There truffles 1160 00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 1: in patte but he made sure they were the cheapest 1161 00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:31,040 Speaker 1: brands of fancy refreshments, because this is a government meeting, right, 1162 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,440 Speaker 1: the Government's gonna put out freffles and patte for these 1163 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:35,400 Speaker 1: rich businessmen. But they're not going to buy the knife ship. 1164 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,240 Speaker 1: It's the government. You know. He thinks about all this ship. 1165 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,120 Speaker 1: You can't try too hard, you know, he put he 1166 00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,200 Speaker 1: that's the thing that makes them specially. He thinks of everything. Yeah. 1167 00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,160 Speaker 1: After evaluating all of the businessmen in the in the room, 1168 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,440 Speaker 1: all of whom are putting in bids, Listing settled on 1169 00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:53,120 Speaker 1: one man in particular, Andrew Poissan. Now, Andre had not 1170 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,680 Speaker 1: given the highest bid, but he was the right man 1171 00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,040 Speaker 1: to con the fact that he was new to the 1172 00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,040 Speaker 1: being wealthy and new to being influential also meant that 1173 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,240 Speaker 1: he would have fewer connections, which would mean he would 1174 01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:07,919 Speaker 1: not be as good at pursuing Listig afterwards. So once 1175 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,960 Speaker 1: the big meeting was over, Listig informed Poisson that he 1176 01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,960 Speaker 1: had been selected, and the two met privately. This was 1177 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,040 Speaker 1: where the actual closure to the con came. Listig pointed 1178 01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,720 Speaker 1: out that Poissan's bid wasn't the best, but he wanted 1179 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,040 Speaker 1: to support the young upstart in his new business. Unfortunately, 1180 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,959 Speaker 1: list It was a poor man. His government salary didn't 1181 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:27,880 Speaker 1: go far, and he was going to need a bribe 1182 01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,200 Speaker 1: to give Poissan the deal to buy the Eiffel Tower 1183 01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:33,480 Speaker 1: scrap metal. Now, the whole scrap industry worked by bribes 1184 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:35,200 Speaker 1: at this point, so this was not seen as odd 1185 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:37,160 Speaker 1: at all, and the fact that Listig asked for a 1186 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,320 Speaker 1: bribe actually made Poissan less suspicious because he's been wondering, like, 1187 01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:41,960 Speaker 1: where were we meeting at a hotel instead of a 1188 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,920 Speaker 1: government office. Oh, it's because he wants a bribe. Okay, 1189 01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:46,680 Speaker 1: I know how to do with bribe. This is how 1190 01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,959 Speaker 1: business is done in Paris, you know. So Poissan writes, 1191 01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,520 Speaker 1: listing a sizeable check in exchange for the tower, and 1192 01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,880 Speaker 1: Listig skips put down with his business partner as soon 1193 01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,480 Speaker 1: as it clears. They expected to have to lie low 1194 01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,680 Speaker 1: for a while. But that's not the way things went. 1195 01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,840 Speaker 1: As the magazine Proghetto summarizes, After a few days, he 1196 01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,439 Speaker 1: realized that something didn't add up. There wasn't a word 1197 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,240 Speaker 1: in newspapers about the barely occurred fraud. Humiliated and offended, 1198 01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:14,200 Speaker 1: the unfortunate Andrew Poissan decided to maintain absolute silence, not 1199 01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,080 Speaker 1: making a complaint and preferring to accept the scam rather 1200 01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:20,680 Speaker 1: than exposing himself to a certain humiliation. The unthinkable had 1201 01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:23,320 Speaker 1: been accomplished, and so with the ardor of a seasoned 1202 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:27,000 Speaker 1: and limitless gambler, Gambler Listig resumed once again. He returned 1203 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:36,240 Speaker 1: to Paris to sell the Eiffel Tower again. Wow's giving 1204 01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,880 Speaker 1: a shot. And you know this actually shows how smart 1205 01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:40,920 Speaker 1: he is, because a lot of sources will describe Lusting 1206 01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 1: as the man who sold the Eiffel Tower twice. That 1207 01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,760 Speaker 1: is not accurate. His second mark was a lot saffier 1208 01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,640 Speaker 1: than Poissan and started asking for too many guarantees, asked 1209 01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,000 Speaker 1: to meet in a government building to do the final deed, 1210 01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,640 Speaker 1: and Listig bail's he realizes, like this, my I'm I'm 1211 01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:57,680 Speaker 1: gonna get in trouble for this, Like this guy is 1212 01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,120 Speaker 1: a little bit too bright for me to con. He 1213 01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:02,439 Speaker 1: fucking bails and goes back to the United States because 1214 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:07,200 Speaker 1: he's he's at this point very smart con artist. Throughout 1215 01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,280 Speaker 1: the late nineteen twenties, Victor continued to con without pause. 1216 01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,440 Speaker 1: He was such a big name in the world of 1217 01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:16,120 Speaker 1: charming criminals that he soon had imposters copycat counts who 1218 01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:19,120 Speaker 1: would pretend to be him or someone like him in 1219 01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:22,880 Speaker 1: order to carry out their own schemes. Count Boris Dobrinsky 1220 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,760 Speaker 1: developed a sleight of hand money boxed scam that included 1221 01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:29,320 Speaker 1: fireworks for some weaks reasons. So many men imitated Count 1222 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:31,480 Speaker 1: Listing that it is difficult to say for certain which 1223 01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:34,000 Speaker 1: scams were him and which were made by impostors. After 1224 01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:37,920 Speaker 1: this point, things become clearer in Thecember of ninety when 1225 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:42,120 Speaker 1: Victor Listig finally made a bad decision, probably the worst 1226 01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:44,920 Speaker 1: one of his life, and decided to rob a businessman 1227 01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,720 Speaker 1: named Thomas Karns. Now, you will note that I said 1228 01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,240 Speaker 1: rob and not con. Victor clearly had plans to con 1229 01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,640 Speaker 1: the man because they were meeting in Victor in in 1230 01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:55,720 Speaker 1: karns his house. But he seems to have been in 1231 01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,040 Speaker 1: some sort of financial jeopardy at this point, probably as 1232 01:02:58,040 --> 01:02:59,960 Speaker 1: a result of all of his mistresses and his daughter 1233 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,080 Speaker 1: her in his gambling. He had expenses and he got greedy, 1234 01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,400 Speaker 1: and whatever the reason, he sneaks upstairs in this guy's 1235 01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,960 Speaker 1: house during their meeting and just takes sixteen grand from 1236 01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:12,160 Speaker 1: a box in a drawer, just robs him. Right, Um, 1237 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:13,920 Speaker 1: I think this is the only time he does it, 1238 01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:18,080 Speaker 1: and it's a horrible decision because it seems so unlike, 1239 01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,800 Speaker 1: unlike him, and very impulsive versus calculated, which is what 1240 01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:24,640 Speaker 1: he usually was. I think it's a mix of thing. 1241 01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:26,920 Speaker 1: So it's probably financial inspiration. You know, he gets to 1242 01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,000 Speaker 1: do a bad spot. He needs cash quick, he doesn't 1243 01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:30,840 Speaker 1: have time to work the con. I think some of 1244 01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,400 Speaker 1: it's just ego. You know, you have so many hits, right, 1245 01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,320 Speaker 1: you get away with so much for so long. I'm 1246 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,040 Speaker 1: sure that. I'm sure the success of the Eiffel Tower 1247 01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:41,800 Speaker 1: scam played a factor to this, because like that could 1248 01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,360 Speaker 1: have report me I can do anything. Um, So he 1249 01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,280 Speaker 1: he fucks up, He fox up bad uh, and Thomas 1250 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,040 Speaker 1: Currens goes immediately to the cops. They started a man 1251 01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,280 Speaker 1: hunt for this guy, who was by this point very 1252 01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:56,880 Speaker 1: prominent and hard to miss. Listed left town quickly, but 1253 01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,520 Speaker 1: he almost immediately got into trouble in Texas again when 1254 01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,919 Speaker 1: he picked Shareff as the latest victim of his money 1255 01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:05,400 Speaker 1: box scam. This scam worked, but again Victor got greedy 1256 01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,720 Speaker 1: and he passed the sheriff a number of actual counterfeit bills, 1257 01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,680 Speaker 1: and this is what finally brought the Secret Service down 1258 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,240 Speaker 1: on Listig's head. Smithsonian Magazine reports on what happened next, 1259 01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:18,080 Speaker 1: and how Listing advanced from pretending to counterfeit money with 1260 01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:21,360 Speaker 1: the cash box scam to actually counterfeiting money, which would 1261 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,560 Speaker 1: be his ultimate downfall. Quote. It was secret service agent 1262 01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,280 Speaker 1: Peter A. Rubano who vowed to put Listing behind bars. 1263 01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:31,320 Speaker 1: Rubano was a heavy set Italian American with a double chin, 1264 01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,560 Speaker 1: sad eyes, and endless ambition. Born and raised in the Bronx, 1265 01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:36,920 Speaker 1: Rubano had main has made his name by trapping the 1266 01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:41,280 Speaker 1: notorious gangster Ignazio the Wolf Lupo. Rubano delighted in seeing 1267 01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:43,200 Speaker 1: his name in the newspapers, and he would dedicate many 1268 01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:46,120 Speaker 1: years to catching Listed. When the Austrian entered the counterfeit 1269 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:50,040 Speaker 1: banknote business in nineteen thirty, Listing fell across Rubano's crosshairs. 1270 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,400 Speaker 1: Teaming up with the ganglin forger William Watts. Listed created 1271 01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:57,360 Speaker 1: banknotes so flawless they fooled even bank tellers. Listed Watts 1272 01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,200 Speaker 1: notes were the super notes of the era, says Joseph Ling, 1273 01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:04,000 Speaker 1: chief judge of the American Numismatic Association, a specialist in 1274 01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,960 Speaker 1: authenticating notes, Listed daringly chose to copy hundred dollar bills 1275 01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:11,280 Speaker 1: those scrutinized most by bank tellers. And became like some 1276 01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:15,320 Speaker 1: other government issuing money in rivalry with the United States Treasury. 1277 01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,880 Speaker 1: A judge leader commented it was feared that a run 1278 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,120 Speaker 1: of fake bills this large could wobble international confidence in 1279 01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:24,160 Speaker 1: the dollar. Catching the count became a cat and mouse 1280 01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:26,920 Speaker 1: game for Rubano in the Secret Service. Listig traveled with 1281 01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,800 Speaker 1: the trunk of disguises and could transform easily into a rabbi, 1282 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,800 Speaker 1: a priest, a bellhopper reporter. Dressed like a baggage man. 1283 01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:34,880 Speaker 1: He could escape any hotel in a pinch, and even 1284 01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,200 Speaker 1: take his luggage with him. But the net was closing in. 1285 01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:40,080 Speaker 1: Listig finally felt a tug on the velvet collar of 1286 01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,440 Speaker 1: his Chesterfield coat. On a New York street corner on 1287 01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,920 Speaker 1: May tenth, nineteen thirty five, a voice ordered hands in 1288 01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,720 Speaker 1: the air. Listig studied the circle of men surrounding him 1289 01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:51,480 Speaker 1: and noticed Agent Rubano, who led him away in handcuffs. 1290 01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:56,160 Speaker 1: So Listig start the man hunt for him. Starts heavily 1291 01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,160 Speaker 1: in n when he robs this guy, and instead of 1292 01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,360 Speaker 1: laying low, he goes on to start counterfeiting, and counterfeiting 1293 01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,280 Speaker 1: so well that the US government worries he might collapse 1294 01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,440 Speaker 1: the national economy because how does he count? How does 1295 01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:12,640 Speaker 1: he how does he churn out? Also, so many counterfeit bills. Um, 1296 01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,000 Speaker 1: he's he's you know, it's it's the attention to detail 1297 01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:17,880 Speaker 1: that he uses with all of his schemes. He he 1298 01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:21,200 Speaker 1: applies that to counterfeiting. He picks the best counterfeitter and 1299 01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:24,280 Speaker 1: he gets the bills almost perfect. Um. You can find 1300 01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:26,040 Speaker 1: pictures of his notes today. There's still some of the 1301 01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,560 Speaker 1: best forgeries that have ever been made. And again, this 1302 01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:31,240 Speaker 1: is happening during the Great Depression, and he's gotten he 1303 01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,160 Speaker 1: gets to be so good at making fake bills that 1304 01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,760 Speaker 1: they're worried he's going to crash a confidence in the U. S. Economy. 1305 01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,600 Speaker 1: So it becomes kind of a matter of national security 1306 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:42,840 Speaker 1: to catch this guy. And again he just got too 1307 01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,280 Speaker 1: big for his bridges, you know, all those costumes and stuff. 1308 01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:48,640 Speaker 1: I feel like, who's going to play him in the movie, 1309 01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:52,720 Speaker 1: you know, like Leotocaprio or I think, yeah, DiCaprio could 1310 01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,200 Speaker 1: probably pull it off, you know, just natural succession from Jack. 1311 01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,240 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, Well, and he played a Frank abcnail 1312 01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,800 Speaker 1: and catch me if you can. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, 1313 01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:03,200 Speaker 1: he's good at doing that. That kind of con man 1314 01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,640 Speaker 1: I would also accept George Clooney. They don't look alike, 1315 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:07,600 Speaker 1: but George Clooney can do a hell of a con man. 1316 01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:12,320 Speaker 1: I would always accept George Clooney. We we Yeah, of 1317 01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,680 Speaker 1: course now looks take it. I would agree with you 1318 01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:20,200 Speaker 1: on that. Um. I'm a fan of his love of pigs. 1319 01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,360 Speaker 1: I'm a fan of his face. But go ahead, he 1320 01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,600 Speaker 1: does his his life was saved by a pig. Okay, 1321 01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:31,080 Speaker 1: just have to look it up that that is a fact. 1322 01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:36,520 Speaker 1: George when he was a young man, he had he 1323 01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:39,640 Speaker 1: He's always loved pigs, populade pigs, I think, And he 1324 01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:41,400 Speaker 1: was a young man, he hadn't made it big yet 1325 01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:43,840 Speaker 1: and he was sleeping with his pig in his tiny 1326 01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:47,400 Speaker 1: apartment and his pig started freaking out, and George took 1327 01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:49,400 Speaker 1: the pig out for a walk, thinking that it needed 1328 01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:51,320 Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom. And it turned out the 1329 01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:53,360 Speaker 1: pig had since that there was going to be an earthquake, 1330 01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:55,680 Speaker 1: and the earthquake collapsed the building that he had been 1331 01:07:55,720 --> 01:08:03,400 Speaker 1: sleeping in. Wow. Yeah, so thank you pigs forgiveness. George Clooney. Yeah, 1332 01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,280 Speaker 1: I wonder if he eats bacon. I don't know. I 1333 01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:10,320 Speaker 1: know he cuts his own hair a great man with 1334 01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:13,480 Speaker 1: a weird like nineteen eighties contraption that you put around 1335 01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:15,560 Speaker 1: your head and it gives you a bus cut me. 1336 01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:21,439 Speaker 1: I thought, I love and I'm over here like great face. Yeah, 1337 01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:25,519 Speaker 1: he's like he's hot, he's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, his wife 1338 01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:31,360 Speaker 1: is there anything about? So Listig was taken to the 1339 01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:35,240 Speaker 1: Federal Detention Center in Manhattan, which was supposed to be inescapable. 1340 01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:39,120 Speaker 1: Of course, he immediately escaped. In September. Listed crafted a 1341 01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:42,360 Speaker 1: rope from prison bedsheets, cut through his bars using items 1342 01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,519 Speaker 1: he'd had smuggled in, and swung down out his window 1343 01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:49,120 Speaker 1: and repelled downwards. This was extremely visible, and a crowd 1344 01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:51,400 Speaker 1: form to watch him repelling down the side of the 1345 01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:54,160 Speaker 1: of the prison, so Listig took a rag from his 1346 01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:57,040 Speaker 1: pocket and started pretending to be cleaning the windows. When 1347 01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:59,439 Speaker 1: he reached the ground, he bowed to his audience and 1348 01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:07,000 Speaker 1: darted a quote like a deer. He's a performers so good. Yeah, 1349 01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,280 Speaker 1: he loves he loves the stage. He loves the stage. 1350 01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:13,879 Speaker 1: He would have been a great actor. When police realized 1351 01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:16,439 Speaker 1: that Listing had escaped, they found a note on his pillow, 1352 01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:19,680 Speaker 1: a handwritten extract from the book Limiserab and This is 1353 01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:21,800 Speaker 1: the quote from the book that he put on his pillow. 1354 01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,200 Speaker 1: He allowed himself to be led in a promise. Jean 1355 01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:28,680 Speaker 1: Valjean had his promise even to a convict, especially to 1356 01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,679 Speaker 1: a convict, and may give the convict confidence and guide 1357 01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,559 Speaker 1: him on the right path. Law was not made by God, 1358 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,880 Speaker 1: and man can be wrong, which is like, I mean, 1359 01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:41,720 Speaker 1: you were counterfeiting bills. Yeah, he's still trying to cry. 1360 01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,200 Speaker 1: He's crafting so narrative still like he knows people are 1361 01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:47,080 Speaker 1: going to talk about that. He's like, oh, he's he's 1362 01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:49,720 Speaker 1: well read and cultured. And he looked at this. Look 1363 01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:52,639 Speaker 1: he's the He's like Jean Valjean. You know he's a convict, 1364 01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:56,720 Speaker 1: but he's a hero. Listing stayed free for more than 1365 01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:59,400 Speaker 1: three weeks. He was eventually caught in Pittsburgh by a 1366 01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:02,720 Speaker 1: joint b I Secret Service task force. They spotted him 1367 01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:05,639 Speaker 1: getting into a car and gave chase. His driver attempted 1368 01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,439 Speaker 1: to escape, and the police eventually rammed the car, locking 1369 01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:11,000 Speaker 1: their wheels together and grinding both wheels to a halt. 1370 01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:13,599 Speaker 1: The agents ripped the doors open and pointed their guns 1371 01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:17,120 Speaker 1: at the men inside. Listing told the agents, well, boys, here, 1372 01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:23,120 Speaker 1: I am never clustered. He's he's he's a great character. Yeah. 1373 01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:27,080 Speaker 1: He was taken before a judge in November of ninety five. 1374 01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:30,400 Speaker 1: The New York Herald Tribune described him thus, his pale, 1375 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,040 Speaker 1: lean face was a study, and his tapering white hands 1376 01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,519 Speaker 1: rested on the bar before a bench. Another journalist overheard 1377 01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:39,639 Speaker 1: a Secret Service agent tell Listig Count, you're the smoothest 1378 01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:43,880 Speaker 1: con man whoever lived. All the sympathy and his undeniable 1379 01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:47,000 Speaker 1: smoothness was not enough to save the Count from Alcatraz Island, 1380 01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:49,920 Speaker 1: where he was sent. His body was searched when he arrived, 1381 01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,120 Speaker 1: and he was hustled or hose down with freezing water, 1382 01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:55,400 Speaker 1: and then interned in one of the most brutal prisons 1383 01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:59,040 Speaker 1: the US justice system ever derived. To to humiliate him, 1384 01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:02,040 Speaker 1: the Count was marched naked to his cell, and I 1385 01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:04,240 Speaker 1: think as a result of getting spread with cold watering 1386 01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:07,640 Speaker 1: march naked, he gets sick. He gets very sick, almost immediately, 1387 01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:10,760 Speaker 1: and he remains sick for the entire time he's in Alcatraz. 1388 01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:13,439 Speaker 1: He makes nearly twelve hundred medical requests and has issued 1389 01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:17,080 Speaker 1: five hundred seven prescriptions. His guards assumed he was faking 1390 01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,400 Speaker 1: an illness as part of an elaborate escape plan, but 1391 01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:22,880 Speaker 1: he was not. He was genuinely ill. His ex wife, Roberta, 1392 01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:25,280 Speaker 1: who had divorced her husband by this point, was still 1393 01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:27,840 Speaker 1: in love with him, and she repeatedly tried to free him, 1394 01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:31,800 Speaker 1: even offering the director of prison seventy dollars. Eventually, his 1395 01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,360 Speaker 1: release was set for August of nineteen forty eight. Lustig 1396 01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:37,839 Speaker 1: did not think he could make it that long. November 1397 01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:40,599 Speaker 1: twenty nine, nineteen forty six, he woke up with massive 1398 01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:43,240 Speaker 1: swelling on the left side of his head. The Alcatraz 1399 01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:46,040 Speaker 1: doctors finally took his sickness seriously and shipped him to 1400 01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:49,040 Speaker 1: a secure medical facility in Missouri. It turned out he 1401 01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:52,200 Speaker 1: had severe pneumonia, which had not been adequately treated over 1402 01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:54,880 Speaker 1: his time in prison. He was attempted. They attempted to 1403 01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,519 Speaker 1: help him, but it was far too late. Betty, his 1404 01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,200 Speaker 1: daughter by this point an adulter's self, managed to track 1405 01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,280 Speaker 1: her father down to the hospital, where she arrived in 1406 01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:06,600 Speaker 1: March of n from the book Handsome Devil quote, she 1407 01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:09,200 Speaker 1: knew instantly that she had waited too long. That he 1408 01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:12,599 Speaker 1: found her father paralyzed. Watched carefully by guards, she took 1409 01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:15,760 Speaker 1: his hand and whispered in his ear Morse code. I 1410 01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:19,160 Speaker 1: love you, daddy. She tapped onto his palm his his 1411 01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:22,960 Speaker 1: fingers tapped back faintly, I love you too. Sis. He 1412 01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:28,040 Speaker 1: died two days after her visit. Wow. Yeah, it's bummer. 1413 01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:33,000 Speaker 1: I mean it really is like the very extreme case 1414 01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:35,360 Speaker 1: of like the boy who cried Wolf, right, Yeah, yeah, 1415 01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:38,360 Speaker 1: I mean right, Like, of course they didn't believe. I'm 1416 01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:41,160 Speaker 1: not one to defend the prison system, but like kind 1417 01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,439 Speaker 1: of hard to believe the man who did nothing but 1418 01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:46,559 Speaker 1: life for seventy years around. I mean, I will say 1419 01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:48,519 Speaker 1: that's a very good call back to the Morse code 1420 01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:53,920 Speaker 1: to happen. It's a perfectly cinematic. I'm sure there have 1421 01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:56,200 Speaker 1: been movies made about this guy. Wait, I have a question. 1422 01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:59,280 Speaker 1: Did I miss what happened to the soul Nate lady? Oh? 1423 01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:02,040 Speaker 1: I mean they just split up at some point. Oh okay, Yeah. 1424 01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:05,400 Speaker 1: You know he's he's never really able to stay with 1425 01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:08,679 Speaker 1: anybody because his true love is conning people. You know, Yeah, 1426 01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:12,599 Speaker 1: it is daughter. He is as good a father as 1427 01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:17,640 Speaker 1: a man who does the things he does can be. Right. Yeah. So, 1428 01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:21,840 Speaker 1: I mean that's the story of Victor Lustig. I don't 1429 01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:24,360 Speaker 1: hate him. It's hard to hate him. Right, he's not 1430 01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:27,000 Speaker 1: a good man, but he's not a monster, you know, 1431 01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:30,760 Speaker 1: he's he's he was a great con man, and he's 1432 01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:34,799 Speaker 1: an interesting, an incredible con man. He thought about everything, 1433 01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:37,840 Speaker 1: he caned people, and they wouldn't go to the police 1434 01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:43,599 Speaker 1: because they were also like that scam is fucking boss. Yeah, 1435 01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:47,839 Speaker 1: he's present. I do respect that he targeted the wealthy, 1436 01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:53,640 Speaker 1: eat the rich. I'm all for it. Um. Yeah, I 1437 01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,120 Speaker 1: don't hate him. Yeah, all con men target greed. Unfortunately, 1438 01:13:57,160 --> 01:13:58,960 Speaker 1: a lot of them target the greed of people who 1439 01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,920 Speaker 1: are also very more and less. Dig seemed to pretty 1440 01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:04,720 Speaker 1: much just go after people who were greedy and rich. Yeah, 1441 01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,960 Speaker 1: and to hate that hard, to hate that. Not great 1442 01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:11,439 Speaker 1: to women. She slept around, constantly, treated his wife like 1443 01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:15,240 Speaker 1: ship and she really loved him. Um. But he taught 1444 01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,800 Speaker 1: his daughter morse quote. He did teach his daughter morse code. Um. 1445 01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:24,040 Speaker 1: That is not nothing. Um wow. Yeah, that's the story 1446 01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:26,559 Speaker 1: of Victor Lustig. And now it's time for the story 1447 01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:30,400 Speaker 1: of Sharine's pluggables. Yeah, oh me, oh my god, thank 1448 01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:32,920 Speaker 1: you so much. That was an interesting segway. I'll give 1449 01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:38,400 Speaker 1: you that. It's pronounced segua. I'm Sharine. Well you and s. 1450 01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,720 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram at Shiro hero S 1451 01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:44,320 Speaker 1: h E E r O h E r O, and 1452 01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:47,519 Speaker 1: then on Twitter at Shiro hero six six six. Uh 1453 01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:52,519 Speaker 1: called ethnically ambiguous on a host name, But that was honestly, 1454 01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:55,640 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed hearing about this man. I wanted to 1455 01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:58,320 Speaker 1: give you a fun one, Sharine. We've had some we've 1456 01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:03,320 Speaker 1: had some heavy conversations on this show. Put me so, 1457 01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:07,040 Speaker 1: here's a guy who never murdered any babies or destroyed 1458 01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:10,760 Speaker 1: anybody's bodies, just con some some rich folks. And that's 1459 01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:13,559 Speaker 1: a good time, right, everybody needs It's it's a rough 1460 01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:16,240 Speaker 1: world out there. This show is always pretty heavy. Let's 1461 01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:17,960 Speaker 1: talk about some con artists for a week, you know, 1462 01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:21,639 Speaker 1: let's have a good That was my thinking with this episode. Well, 1463 01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:25,280 Speaker 1: thank you for letting me talk about it. Yeah, it 1464 01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:28,120 Speaker 1: was very refreshing. It's always good to talk about a 1465 01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:30,839 Speaker 1: con artist talk about another con artist on Thursday,