Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. This is the story of a man who's
Speaker 1: fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's
Speaker 1: a name you don't forget. He was a visionary who
Speaker 1: built a fortune as a black man during Jim Crow
Speaker 1: during the Depression, but today not many people know about him.
Speaker 1: The race sort of wiped out, and I wonder if
Speaker 1: this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Free and I'm rthy. We have spent the last
Speaker 1: twenty years building and working at some of the largest
Speaker 1: companies in the world. We worked with some remarkable people.
Speaker 1: Rob mcalinney. When I see the people of Wrexham, I
Speaker 1: grew up exactly like them. Check out the Arthi and
Speaker 1: Trrom show. That is a R D HI and s
Speaker 1: R I R A M show. Listen to the acdaanstry
Speaker 1: On show on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast Oh, whenever
Speaker 1: you get to your podcast, what stands out to me
Speaker 1: is just the sheer massiveness of this thing and the
Speaker 1: absolute metality in this thing. These were real human beings
Speaker 1: who lost their lives and it's not just what happened
Speaker 1: to them, but they were actual people. Legal fireworks erupted
Speaker 1: in court as George Wagner, the Force attorneys try to
Speaker 1: put a sudden end to his trial in the Pike
Speaker 1: County massacre, we would ask for this trial basically cruso
Speaker 1: photos and shown to the three. He knows these photographs
Speaker 1: from coming. So I don't know how much of this
Speaker 1: was rooted in legal practice and how much of it
Speaker 1: is rooted in theatrics. This is the Pike to Mascar
Speaker 1: Returned to Pike County Season four, Episode seven, Everybody Has
Speaker 1: a Story. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie
Speaker 1: Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. It's the middle
Speaker 1: of George Wagner the Fourth's trial, and it's important to
Speaker 1: note that he has pleaded not guilty and has maintained
Speaker 1: he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose
Speaker 1: trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all charges.
Speaker 1: Hours of testimony from investigators and relatives has painted a
Speaker 1: very real portrait of what the crime scenes look like.
Speaker 1: But on this day of the trial, no one could
Speaker 1: have imagined the gruesomeness they would face. Listener warning, This
Speaker 1: episode covers a particularly graphic portion of the court testimony.
Speaker 1: Discretion is strongly advised from the fetter. When you were
Speaker 1: about to go showing the truth, the whole truth and
Speaker 1: nothing but the truth, did you show answer? Unto god?
Speaker 1: I do? Prosecutor Anti Kneppa and her team called doctor
Speaker 1: Karen Lumin to the stand. Luman is a forensic pathologist
Speaker 1: who carried out autopsies on all eight of the victims. Wednesday,
Speaker 1: she talked about examining Chris Sen, your son Frankie Rodin
Speaker 1: and as fiance Hannah Gilly. Both were found shot to
Speaker 1: death in their bed inside a mobile home, with their
Speaker 1: infant son left alive between them. The eight deceased members
Speaker 1: of the Roden family were discovered on a Friday. Once
Speaker 1: investigators for BCI were done processing the crime scenes, the
Speaker 1: bodies were removed and transported for autopsy. And that you
Speaker 1: did the females first on April twenty third. That seems Saturday, Yes, okay?
Speaker 1: And would you have done that first thing in the morning?
Speaker 1: Yes okay? And what time is six o seven am?
Speaker 1: Here's James Pilcher, longcome investigative reporter in Cincinnati now with
Speaker 1: Local twelve. She got the call first thing Saturday morning.
Speaker 1: She starts in she had to do eight autopsies in
Speaker 1: three days, but she actually did three on one day,
Speaker 1: and then another four on another day, and then another
Speaker 1: one on Monday. And these weren't just you're running the
Speaker 1: mill autopsies. I don't know what she must have gone
Speaker 1: through that weekend. And knowing they're all one family, we're
Speaker 1: all like talking amongst ourselves, how are we going to
Speaker 1: handle our own mental health through all of this? I
Speaker 1: can imagine what she's going through. Here's forensic medical examiner
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. You're talking about multiple gunshot wounds and
Speaker 1: lots of evidence, trace evidence. To recover each one of
Speaker 1: these autopsy would have taken a couple of hours because
Speaker 1: it would have been X rays, external photographs, removal of clothing,
Speaker 1: searching for trace evidence on the clothing in place, documentation
Speaker 1: of the clothing, documentation of the holes in the clothing,
Speaker 1: the defects and the clothing, the bloodstains on the clothing,
Speaker 1: all of those measurements, and we haven't even made it
Speaker 1: to the body yet. Just let that sink in. So
Speaker 1: can you imagine how exhausting this would be and how
Speaker 1: draining this is psychically? Based on a quick review of
Speaker 1: doctor Lemon's work. She does not shy away from emotionally
Speaker 1: challenging cases. She has performed autopsies and testified in many
Speaker 1: murder trials, including those of toddlers. On the stand, she
Speaker 1: appears relaxed and direct. Can you tell us what we
Speaker 1: are looking at the This is a photograph of Hannah
Speaker 1: Hazel as we opened the body bag. That's a picture
Speaker 1: of Hannah's chest showing her bra and she has a
Speaker 1: maternity bra and the hooks for the front of the
Speaker 1: bra are open and her breast is exposed in that, yes, photograph.
Speaker 1: And do you see livermortis in that picture? There is
Speaker 1: some livermortis in the picture. Yes, here again, Joseph Scott Morgan. Well,
Speaker 1: when you begin to think about libra mortis is probably
Speaker 1: one of the most solid fallback positions when it comes
Speaker 1: to judging postmortem interval. And the reason is is that
Speaker 1: it's totally gravitationally dependent. It's not impacted by temperature. Sadly,
Speaker 1: the blood is impacted only only by gravity, so the
Speaker 1: blood will actually pool in the lowest depended area. And
Speaker 1: it's very simple to explain. Just just think for a moment,
Speaker 1: if you've got a cup of water. If you pour
Speaker 1: that cup of water out into the sink, well, what's
Speaker 1: it going to seek. It's going to seek the lowest
Speaker 1: point of gravity, and in the case of the sink,
Speaker 1: it's going to be the drain. So just imagine, if
Speaker 1: you will, there's a body lying flat, which we would
Speaker 1: call the suphine position line, flat on the back, face upwards. Well,
Speaker 1: the blood is going to pool into those dependent regions
Speaker 1: in the back on the posterior. We can tell how
Speaker 1: long someone has been down within two to three hours essentially,
Speaker 1: when we apply all of these components, whether it's the
Speaker 1: rigidity of the body, the temperature of the body, and
Speaker 1: more specifically the postmorum mobility to settling the blood. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us if the liver mortist that you see
Speaker 1: in that is consistent with her laying mostly on her
Speaker 1: stomach kind of to the right side, on the right, yes,
Speaker 1: on the right side, yes. About what parts of the
Speaker 1: body did you notice injuries too? I'm miss Gilly Hannah
Speaker 1: Hazel head injuries only to her head? How many gunshot
Speaker 1: winds did Hannah Hazel have? Five lumin examines an X
Speaker 1: ray of Hannah Hazel Gilly's head and explains you can
Speaker 1: see the round orbits where the eyes are. You can
Speaker 1: see where teeth are at the bottom, and then you
Speaker 1: can see four relatively larger white radio opaque things on
Speaker 1: the right side of the head. Those are bigger bullets.
Speaker 1: They are deformed, so you see their funny different shapes.
Speaker 1: They're deformed because they struck the bone. And then you
Speaker 1: see there's tins of little pieces of metal above those
Speaker 1: four pieces. And on the other side by the left eye,
Speaker 1: those are all tin of little fragments of bullet. Joseph
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. You know they won't show certain photographs in court,
Speaker 1: or they'll because the defense will say they're prejudicial. One
Speaker 1: of the most beautiful things that you can do is
Speaker 1: show X rays. Because X rays don't have blood, they
Speaker 1: don't have gore. You don't see bodies blown apart. You
Speaker 1: might see fractured bone, but it's black and white. And
Speaker 1: then anything that is radio opaque, you see that, and
Speaker 1: suddenly the snowstorm appears before you and they look like
Speaker 1: little white dots everywhere, and those are fragments of bullets,
Speaker 1: and that is powerful when the jury looks at that,
Speaker 1: and everybody knows their brain is in the top part
Speaker 1: of their head, inside of their skull, and you see it.
Speaker 1: You know, white bulb goes off and said, oh my god,
Speaker 1: look in the brain. You can see the little dots
Speaker 1: where all of that the bullet fragment, and just rip
Speaker 1: this body to shreds. But photographic evidence follows warning. Some
Speaker 1: of this discussion is incredibly graphic. In that photograph, I'm
Speaker 1: looking at her left eye. There's some clotted blood that
Speaker 1: you see along the margin of her eye. The blood
Speaker 1: that's in her mouth is not an injury. It's blood
Speaker 1: that's there because of the fractures to the skull. It
Speaker 1: actually fractures the sinus bones and then the sinuses bleed
Speaker 1: down the back of the throat passively. Okay, and it
Speaker 1: almost looks like her tooth is black, But that's actually
Speaker 1: blood that's clouded blood. Yes, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: people that you know, want to turn a blind eye
Speaker 1: to the horror of this. You cannot escape it. There's
Speaker 1: no way to, you know, church this up. Within the
Speaker 1: context of the graphic detail lies the story, and you know,
Speaker 1: people as desperately as they want to turn away from it,
Speaker 1: you have to stare at it. You have to stare
Speaker 1: at it and assess it. You have to get past
Speaker 1: the horror of it. But you have to understand this.
Speaker 1: Every person that died deserves deserves to have their story told.
Speaker 1: I think that it is unmanagable for the family. Hearing
Speaker 1: this graphic testimony from the corner, and also hearing Joseph
Speaker 1: Morgan's take on it, we forget they too are human
Speaker 1: beings who were seeing carnage and blood and bodies so regularly.
Speaker 1: We assume anybody who works in this space get used
Speaker 1: to seeing in that level of gore. But that's simply
Speaker 1: not the case here. Again, Special Prosecutor Angie Kneppa, you
Speaker 1: have an opinion as to whether or not her eye
Speaker 1: would have been opened or closed at the time that
Speaker 1: she was shot her eyes because it at least got
Speaker 1: part of her eyelids. I believe her eyelids were mostly closed.
Speaker 1: The fact that it didn't get the upper eyelid, it
Speaker 1: could be. You know, some people sleep with their eyes
Speaker 1: slightly open. It could be that our eyes are slightly open.
Speaker 1: It could also be their eyes are fully open and
Speaker 1: it only got the bottom lid, so it did not
Speaker 1: go through the top eyelids. That's correct, So I can't
Speaker 1: tell technically if she was asleep or awake. And did
Speaker 1: you ultimately or can you tell us what distance did
Speaker 1: you determine that was because we could see stipling, that's
Speaker 1: an intermediate gunshot wound. Okay. And that intermediate again, is
Speaker 1: that three inches to three feet dish range? Yes? And
Speaker 1: do you have an opinion as to the effect that
Speaker 1: would have had on Hannah Hazel? Yes? And what is
Speaker 1: that opinion? She would have been immediately unconscious, okay? And
Speaker 1: why do you say that the bullet not only causes injury,
Speaker 1: but there's also kinetic energy that travels with the bullets.
Speaker 1: It's shaking up the brain. It takes a lot to
Speaker 1: break the bones in the skull too. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of concussion trauma. So not only is it damaging her eye,
Speaker 1: but the brain is damaged as well, and so she
Speaker 1: would become unconscious. This is only the description of the
Speaker 1: first gunshot. The bullet ended up in the frontal lobe
Speaker 1: of the brain. You can also see she's got some
Speaker 1: blood coming from her left ear. That's a sign that
Speaker 1: the bones inside the head, especially the bone where your
Speaker 1: inner ear, is broken, then you bleed outside your ear,
Speaker 1: So that's what you're seeing Caneppa and Luman go through
Speaker 1: each individual round, all five shots, and the damage each
Speaker 1: bullet did to Hannah Hazel Gilly's body. Here's legal analyst
Speaker 1: Mike Allen. What stands out to me is just the
Speaker 1: absolute brutality of this thing. I mean, it's stunning how
Speaker 1: brutal it is. Shot in the face. I mean, testimony
Speaker 1: about a baby nursing at his mother's breast and she's shot.
Speaker 1: I mean, you think about Hannah laying in bed with
Speaker 1: that child, and just the pravity of someone doing that.
Speaker 1: It's really hard to imagine. All in all, doctor Luman
Speaker 1: extracted four bullets from Hannah Hazel's head. The fifth grazed
Speaker 1: her skull, creating a hole and a partial bullet wound.
Speaker 1: During testimony, reporter James Pilcher reported live from outside the courtroom.
Speaker 1: Frankie was shot three times in the head. Earlier Wednesday,
Speaker 1: Todd Fordner with the Oha Bureau of Criminal Investigation finished
Speaker 1: testifying about processing that crime scene on Union Hill Road,
Speaker 1: saying he found five spent shelf casings in the couple's bedroom.
Speaker 1: Frankie Rodin was lying in bed with Hannah Hazel Gilly
Speaker 1: a pair of blue boxer shorts the only clothing he
Speaker 1: was wearing. They were soaked with blood. Doctor Luman holds
Speaker 1: up a paper bag with this evidence inside, but does
Speaker 1: not open it. She then picks up a box. This
Speaker 1: is our bullet box where we put all of the
Speaker 1: projectiles in. I have it labeled from the head for Frankie,
Speaker 1: and those represent the projectiles that you recovered from the
Speaker 1: head of Frankie Roding on eight twenty four, sixteen. And
Speaker 1: can you tell us did you notice any differences or
Speaker 1: similarities between those projectiles and the projectiles that you recovered
Speaker 1: from Hannah Hazel Gilly. Yes, Frankie was lying face up
Speaker 1: and was shot through the cheek, left temple and air.
Speaker 1: Hannah Hazel was at his side facing him. The shooter
Speaker 1: came into their room, facing the left side of the
Speaker 1: bed and opened fire. Despite the graphic nature of the
Speaker 1: work at hand, there were only positive reviews of Luman's testimony.
Speaker 1: Here again, James Pilcher, I can tell you, at least
Speaker 1: from the feedback I've gotten from watching her, that she
Speaker 1: has really a lot of respect in the community for
Speaker 1: the respect she's treated the victims in their bodies and
Speaker 1: the autopsy and everything else. But the next morning. It's
Speaker 1: not Luman's testimony that is making news. Legal fireworks are
Speaker 1: upted in court as George Wagner, the Force attorneys trying
Speaker 1: to put a sudden end to his trial and the
Speaker 1: Pike County massacre. We would ask for a mistrial based
Speaker 1: on gruesome photos that have been shown to the jury.
Speaker 1: Photos are only missile, irrelevant, and pot of disputation. George
Speaker 1: Wagner's defense attorney, John Parker claims continuing to show the
Speaker 1: jury gruesome photos of the crime scenes and autopsies is inflammatory,
Speaker 1: specifically since the actual facts of how the victims died
Speaker 1: are not in question. We're going to take a break.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher,
Speaker 1: and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girl Friends. Back
Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of
Speaker 1: us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He
Speaker 1: spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he
Speaker 1: was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted into the point she went unconscious.
Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one
Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for bob Us
Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to
Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
Speaker 1: the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney hell is
Speaker 1: going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted
Speaker 1: a situation like this. I just thought it was just
Speaker 1: a really terrible immoral thing, a line they won't cross.
Speaker 1: I was, and I just said, no, we're killing people.
Speaker 1: You may never have to face that decision when you
Speaker 1: find yourself at that line. Thoughts ricin, arn't ricin, And
Speaker 1: somebody needs to just for once give everybody the whole truth,
Speaker 1: like this is evil and the only person who can
Speaker 1: sound the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to
Speaker 1: sit silently. Buy from iHeart podcasts. These are the whistleblowers.
Speaker 1: If you are disloyal, things are going to happen to
Speaker 1: speak out disgrace to our cut. Evil play should be
Speaker 1: prosecuted when power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense.
Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's
Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my wart winning
Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to
Speaker 1: toatch incredible guests about important things. People like me have
Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil.
Speaker 1: They will take things away. And I can only hope
Speaker 1: that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment, girl, You
Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get
Speaker 1: through the day in New York City and get home
Speaker 1: in one piece. And so the fact that we're here
Speaker 1: and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know,
Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills.
Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said,
Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us.
Speaker 1: And we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The Laverne Cox
Speaker 1: Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share How Rude.
Speaker 1: Tanta Rito's is the Full House rewatch podcast you've been
Speaker 1: waiting for. Each week, get together with iconic characters Stephanie
Speaker 1: Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, also known as actresses Jody Sweeten
Speaker 1: and Andrea Barber, as they team up to relive every
Speaker 1: episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show. We spent
Speaker 1: our entire childhoods on a little show called Full House,
Speaker 1: playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling,
Speaker 1: and now thirty five years later, it's our biggest adventure yet.
Speaker 1: Get ready for Jody and Andrea to tell all as
Speaker 1: they take an in depth book back at life in
Speaker 1: and around the Tanner Home from the very very beginning.
Speaker 1: So if you think you know everything there is to
Speaker 1: know about Full House, How Rude, We'll be reliving every
Speaker 1: moment with you, and we'll be joined by our Full
Speaker 1: House family, including all your favorites from one hundred and
Speaker 1: ninety two episodes. We'll reveal the hidden treasures you may
Speaker 1: have missed within the show, and we'll take a trip
Speaker 1: down memory lane together. Listen to how Rude Tannertos on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio appable podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Here's Jeff speaking with James Pilcher. The defense is asking
Speaker 1: for a Mistriald, What do you make of that? Is
Speaker 1: that its something that's valid? Could they possibly get one?
Speaker 1: They are pulling every trick in the book that they
Speaker 1: can to try to get this to start over, to
Speaker 1: delay it, to get the juryman to do whatever. The
Speaker 1: latest thing. They don't want the prosecution to be able
Speaker 1: to show the pictures up on the screen. Here again,
Speaker 1: Joseph Morgan. What is kind of out of left field
Speaker 1: is the idea that the defense attorney would ask for
Speaker 1: a mistrial based on the nature of the photographs. Most
Speaker 1: of the time that that kind of stuff is handled
Speaker 1: in pre trial motion. You come to an agreement as
Speaker 1: to what photography is going to be used, and in
Speaker 1: the free child motions, there'll be a hearing. And they
Speaker 1: knew this was coming. This is not like this just
Speaker 1: fell from the heavens and they're unaware. He know that's
Speaker 1: these photogram coming, So I don't know how much of
Speaker 1: this was rooted in legal practice and how much of
Speaker 1: it is rooted in the address. It appears that Judge
Speaker 1: Deering agrees with the request for a mistriald denied. The
Speaker 1: prosecution moves on to crime scene three, the home where
Speaker 1: Dana Roden, Hanname Roden, and Chris Roden Jr. Were killed.
Speaker 1: The prosecution recalled BCI special agent Todd Fortner to the stand.
Speaker 1: Fortner had already testified earlier in the trial about evidence
Speaker 1: at Chris Senior and Gary's trailer. He took many of
Speaker 1: the photographs at Frankie Roden's house as well. When nicought
Speaker 1: the eye of both the prosecution and defense. Was an
Speaker 1: open window on the backside of the home. If you
Speaker 1: look at States and did at B one thirty five,
Speaker 1: you testified about that air conditioner that appeared to have
Speaker 1: some grass on it out back. Can you see that
Speaker 1: air conditioner in that picture? Yes, just outside the window.
Speaker 1: The back of Frankie Roden's home has two windows. The
Speaker 1: open window in questions it's about five to six feet
Speaker 1: up from the ground with two HVAC units below. In
Speaker 1: interior photos are shown next show the jury where that
Speaker 1: pictures taken from the what you're de packing in that picture.
Speaker 1: This again from the doorway here looking into the bedroom.
Speaker 1: You can see the clutter and the open window. Here
Speaker 1: Stephanie looking at these photographs and picturing this room and
Speaker 1: where these windows are. An interesting detail too, I thought
Speaker 1: was that there was a bathtub and they must have
Speaker 1: been raising baby chicks because to keep them warm, there
Speaker 1: were little wood chips in the bathtub where the chicks
Speaker 1: were growing. And right beside that there was you know,
Speaker 1: a toddler's packing play, which we've all seen before, just
Speaker 1: kind to a hunting image against the grizzliness that took
Speaker 1: place soon after. Also, you know, it raises the question
Speaker 1: there was so much stuff in and around where the
Speaker 1: windows are, it seems like it would have been very
Speaker 1: clumsy to get through that window, specially agent Todd Fortner.
Speaker 1: And when you initially viewed that picture, did you think
Speaker 1: it was unlikely that anybody had come through that window? Yes,
Speaker 1: so I felt it was less likely that someone came
Speaker 1: in without disturbing some of these items. However, it was
Speaker 1: not impossible, Okay, so clearly somebody could have come through
Speaker 1: that window. But based on the way that those items
Speaker 1: appeared nothing was knock over or disturbed or upside down.
Speaker 1: That correct. Correct. He gave it some thought and listened
Speaker 1: very carefully, and he opined that he didn't believe that
Speaker 1: that was case. He said, it's not off the table.
Speaker 1: But you know the space is so tight this window.
Speaker 1: You know that you would gain acts through and there
Speaker 1: is no underlying area to kind of leverage yourself up
Speaker 1: all into the one to seal. The defense tries to
Speaker 1: drive a wedge between the certainty of the prosecution and Fortner,
Speaker 1: alluding to one Wagner who could have fit through that window,
Speaker 1: admitted murderer, Jake Wagner. You prepare a report in this case, right, yes,
Speaker 1: And in your report you discussed looking for points of entry.
Speaker 1: Do you recall that I do, And what is it
Speaker 1: you said about that as a potential point of interest,
Speaker 1: As I've already testified, I said, with the items there
Speaker 1: inside the window, I felt it was less likely to
Speaker 1: be a point of entry because it's such a tight
Speaker 1: squeeze to get through there and not disrupt those items.
Speaker 1: Even though you said it was unlikely based on your observations,
Speaker 1: was it impossible, No, it was possible, Like I said,
Speaker 1: it would take somebody smaller and more agile, but not impossible.
Speaker 1: When he said that, I went back and counter reflectively
Speaker 1: looked at the images of Jake, you know, back during
Speaker 1: that period of time. On some level, he's bulk here now,
Speaker 1: but back in sixteen he was a smaller person. Jay
Speaker 1: could have made through it back then, but I think
Speaker 1: it's highly unlikely. There's another point that we have to
Speaker 1: consider here. If you go through a window, particularly when
Speaker 1: you have to leap up to and kind of pull
Speaker 1: yourself through there, there would be some remnant of you.
Speaker 1: Potentially a much higher probability is some remnant of you
Speaker 1: left behind in that small space you're trying to wiggle through.
Speaker 1: You testified that you didn't do any swabbing or DNA
Speaker 1: of that open window area as part of your work
Speaker 1: out there on that day. Is that correct? Correct? But
Speaker 1: did you find out or do you know that later
Speaker 1: as part of the investigation eventually that area was swabbed
Speaker 1: for DNA. Yes, it was. There was no DNA and
Speaker 1: no fingerprints were covered in or around the window. Every
Speaker 1: contact leaves a trace, So everything that we do physically
Speaker 1: within the construct of a crime scene, if we touch surface,
Speaker 1: we're gonna leave some element of ourself behat, whether it's
Speaker 1: an early fingerprint, whether it's a bit of fiber, whether
Speaker 1: it's a bit of touch DNA which is shed and skin,
Speaker 1: and to my way of understand, they didn't find any
Speaker 1: of that. The next morning, another attempt by the defense
Speaker 1: to shut down the trial. Here's Judge Deering motion was
Speaker 1: filed earlier this morning, motion number one eleven entitled motion
Speaker 1: for this mistrial. Thursday began with another attempt by Wagner's
Speaker 1: defense team to get a mistrial in the case. But
Speaker 1: as you did Wednesday, Judge Randy Deering overruled that motion.
Speaker 1: Here again Mike Allen on why the defense would file
Speaker 1: motions on back to back days. They're making a record.
Speaker 1: From what I understand, it was an oral motion the
Speaker 1: day before, yet yesterday it was put in writing yesterday
Speaker 1: and filed and the judge heard the one that is
Speaker 1: in writing today. It's all about making a record in
Speaker 1: case there's an appeal again, Joseph Scott Morgan, if George
Speaker 1: has found guilty, it's immediately going to go up on appeal.
Speaker 1: And I can promise you this is going to be
Speaker 1: a point which they're going to argue on appeal. They're
Speaker 1: gonna say these photographs were so prejudicial, so over the top,
Speaker 1: that it's swayed in an inappropriate manner. A painted my
Speaker 1: client is some kind of monster. Soon after the exchange,
Speaker 1: Hamilton County Chief Deputy corner Doctor Karen Lohman returned to
Speaker 1: the stand, Doctor Lowman, can you tell us what we
Speaker 1: are looking at there? So this is a side X
Speaker 1: ray of Dana's head. You can see she has some
Speaker 1: fillings in her teeth, and she has one, two, three, four,
Speaker 1: about six large pieces of bullet and bullet fragments in
Speaker 1: her head. Kneppa, seeing the graphic nature of the photo,
Speaker 1: pauses for many awkward seconds. Lumen grimaces and looks down
Speaker 1: while Caneppa decides what to do. She asked the judge
Speaker 1: to remove the photo from the in room screen. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna can you minimize seis. I'm going to approach the
Speaker 1: exhibit with this next photo. If that's okay with the chord,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm going to approach the victim with this next.
Speaker 1: From here on in, she only shows doctor Lumen and
Speaker 1: the jury printed photos of the autopsies. Doctor can you
Speaker 1: tell us when you did your examination of Dana? Roden.
Speaker 1: How many gunshot wounds had she received? Five? Matriarch Dana
Speaker 1: Rodin was in a nightgown in bed when she was shot.
Speaker 1: And can you tell us we are was gunshot wound
Speaker 1: number one located on the diagram? Number one is on
Speaker 1: the far left. It looks like it's on the right forehead.
Speaker 1: It's a little more on the side of the forehead.
Speaker 1: It traveled across, following a relatively straight path to the
Speaker 1: left side of her head, struck the bone on the
Speaker 1: left side of her head, did not exit, and then
Speaker 1: fell inside her skull to underneath her brain. And a
Speaker 1: gunshot wound number two? Where was that located? That is
Speaker 1: closer to the center of the right forehead? Shot three
Speaker 1: was similar the other two grazed her skull and shattered
Speaker 1: her jaw. And can you tell us do you have
Speaker 1: an opinion? Were the bullets in projectile that you recovered
Speaker 1: from Dana Rodin? Was that consistent with the bullets and
Speaker 1: projectiles that you removed from Frankie Rodin and Hannah Hazel Kelly, Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: And inconsistent with the bullets and projectiles that you recovered
Speaker 1: from Chris Senior and Dary Roden. Yes. That's correct. When
Speaker 1: initial photos of Hannah may Rodin in a body bag
Speaker 1: are presented to doctor Luman, Angie Kneppa immediately draws attention
Speaker 1: to a tattoo. There is what appears to be a
Speaker 1: tattoo close to the underwear line or the bikini line.
Speaker 1: And can you tell us what those initials are? The
Speaker 1: initials are E JW kre Stephanie, Hannah may rode In
Speaker 1: on her body. She has a little tattoo with the
Speaker 1: initials E J W on her hip. Those initials, of
Speaker 1: course afore Edward Jake Wagner. That's Jake Wagner's legal name,
Speaker 1: and it just paints a picture. At one point she
Speaker 1: was deeply, deeply in love with him. This is a
Speaker 1: side view of Hannah's head. You can see that this
Speaker 1: a long belt gated piece of metal and a shorter
Speaker 1: one there. Those are the earrings that we saw previously
Speaker 1: in the previous picture. And then you can see some
Speaker 1: small radio paque white pieces of bullet in her head.
Speaker 1: And when you conducted your examination of Hannah rode In,
Speaker 1: how many gunshot wounds did you observe her to have? Two?
Speaker 1: Here again, Reporter James Pilcher, Hannah was the main target
Speaker 1: because she was the one holding up the issues with
Speaker 1: the custody, And yet she only got shot twice and
Speaker 1: the rest were you know, Dana got shot five times.
Speaker 1: It makes no sense. Hanname Rodin was shot in the
Speaker 1: upper left back of her head and behind her left ear.
Speaker 1: She was found resting facing away from the door to
Speaker 1: her bedroom. So if for instance, somebody comes in through here,
Speaker 1: this individual sees that person and then turns away either
Speaker 1: instinctively to because they see a gun, in order to
Speaker 1: protect the child that's laying and better them. Are the
Speaker 1: injuries in the pathways that you saw to her head
Speaker 1: consistent with that? Yes? Did you observe the shirt to
Speaker 1: be in any certain position? Yes? And what was that position?
Speaker 1: The shirt was pulled up over the right breast. And
Speaker 1: did you actually have some other abnormal finding when you
Speaker 1: did the internal examination of Hannah Rodin or an additional finding? Yeah,
Speaker 1: not necessarily abnormal, but yes, additional finals And what was that?
Speaker 1: One of them was that she was lactating and the
Speaker 1: other was that her uterus was enlarged because she'd just
Speaker 1: given birth several days before, so it takes a while
Speaker 1: for your uterus to shrink back down so I could
Speaker 1: tell that she had recently given birth. Back in twenty six,
Speaker 1: the weekend after the murders, Karen Lehman returned to the
Speaker 1: marg on Sunday after spending an entire Saturday with the
Speaker 1: bodies of Dana, Hannah Hazel and Anime. Chris Junior was
Speaker 1: the first body she examined that day. The fifteen year
Speaker 1: old was found lying on his stomach, covered by a comforter.
Speaker 1: There were four shots to the right side of his
Speaker 1: head and face. And is that consistent with the body
Speaker 1: being positioned this way and somebody coming up and shooting
Speaker 1: him from this site? Yes? Yes? Did you observe any
Speaker 1: exit wounds to Christopher Jr? No? Did you collect the
Speaker 1: projectile that you recovered from within his head? Yes? Okay,
Speaker 1: showing you what's been Marcus dates Exhibit K ninety three.
Speaker 1: If you can tell me about this. This is a
Speaker 1: bullet box labeled from the head and it's holding all
Speaker 1: of the bullets in one box that we collected at autopsy.
Speaker 1: Here again, James Pilcher seeing the crime scene photos of
Speaker 1: Chris Junior. About me cry, I'm a parent of a
Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen year old and to see him just lying
Speaker 1: dead in bed with a blood hole in his forehead
Speaker 1: and purple was just not something I'd ever want to
Speaker 1: see again. That afternoon, court adjourns for the week after
Speaker 1: hours of grilling testimony about crime scene. Three jurors who
Speaker 1: will decide George Wagner's Guilder innocence have a lot to
Speaker 1: think about this weekend. Let's stop here for another break. Oh.
Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The
Speaker 1: girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she
Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes
Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob,
Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him
Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put
Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw
Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call
Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister.
Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can
Speaker 1: listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney,
Speaker 1: hell is going on here. Everyone has their limits. I'd
Speaker 1: never confronted a situation like this. I just thought it
Speaker 1: was just a really terrible, immoral thing, a line they
Speaker 1: won't cross. I was stunned, and I just said, no,
Speaker 1: we're killing people. You may never have to face that
Speaker 1: decision when you find yourself at that line. Thoughts ricin,
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Speaker 1: only person who can sound the alarm is you. I
Speaker 1: wasn't just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart podcasts.
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Speaker 1: Evil play should be prosecuted when power corrupts, conscience is
Speaker 1: the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to
Speaker 1: the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer,
Speaker 1: fashionista and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may
Speaker 1: remember my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy.
Speaker 1: There's always time to talk to incredible guests about important things.
Speaker 1: People like me have been screaming for years. We've got
Speaker 1: to watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong,
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Speaker 1: Pearl Harbor moment, girl, You and I both know what
Speaker 1: it took to just get through the day in New
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Speaker 1: the fact that we're here and what you've achieved and
Speaker 1: what I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just
Speaker 1: sitting around complaining about some bills. The only reason that
Speaker 1: you might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable
Speaker 1: is because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly
Speaker 1: noticing it. Listen to The Laverne Cox Show on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe and share in our twenty two
Speaker 1: years of friendship, Andy, this has to be the most
Speaker 1: bizarre thing we've ever done. I know, I love it.
Speaker 1: Our podcast, My Vagina Said is a podcast where we
Speaker 1: ask our everyday vagina listeners to pull up a seat
Speaker 1: at the best Friend's table as we share our most
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Speaker 1: We are going to discuss all body things like what
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Speaker 1: podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts what. Monday morning comes quickly for a
Speaker 1: tired panel of jurors. Doctor Lumin arrives for her final
Speaker 1: day of testimony. It's the final day bearing witness to
Speaker 1: the most grisly details of how an entire branch of
Speaker 1: the family tree was chopped off in one night. In
Speaker 1: a previous episode, we analyzed Kenneth Roden's crime scene, known
Speaker 1: as crime Scene four, in depth, but Karen Luman adds
Speaker 1: an additional detail we had not heard about Kenny Rowden's murder.
Speaker 1: Do you have an a painting within a reasonable degree
Speaker 1: medical certainty as to the cause of death of Kenneth? Yes? Hey,
Speaker 1: what would that be? Doctor? There was a single gunshot
Speaker 1: wound to the head. His eyes were closed because the
Speaker 1: bullet went through his eyelids. This is where we found
Speaker 1: the bullet. It is a refrain she touched upon. Across
Speaker 1: her testimony, James Pilcher Loman said she could tell many
Speaker 1: of the victims died in their sleep. It became apparent
Speaker 1: looking at where the wounds were that it seemed that
Speaker 1: many of them were shot multiple times and never moved,
Speaker 1: never appeared to have reacted to other people in the
Speaker 1: house being shot as well. Here's Jeff speaking with Mike Gallen.
Speaker 1: It's more detail than we've ever gotten about the brutality
Speaker 1: of what happened to the Rodent family. And you know,
Speaker 1: there didn't appear to be much of a struggle, And
Speaker 1: she said that's not normally the case, my guess is
Speaker 1: that there they probably were asleep because I mean, if
Speaker 1: you hear a gun shot or if you see somebody
Speaker 1: coming at you holding a gun or anything at that
Speaker 1: time of night, I think your suspicions would be raised.
Speaker 1: And you didn't have any defensive wounds and nobody really resisted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's hard to like picture it. I mean,
Speaker 1: for sure to many points too, that that Jake was
Speaker 1: not alone in shooting them, like there had to have
Speaker 1: been more than one shooter. I mean, if you think
Speaker 1: about if everyone was in bad if you go to Dana's,
Speaker 1: it's Dana, Hannah and little Chris. So were there three
Speaker 1: shooters at the same time? You know, I'm all counting
Speaker 1: down or could there be another reason no one woke up.
Speaker 1: They're getting further and further away from tying it to
Speaker 1: the actual defendant. Here, we really got to get to
Speaker 1: the beginning when the plotting and planning in real conspiracy
Speaker 1: took place. And this is a fired bullet, a forty caliber.
Speaker 1: So the focus of testimony now is ballistics, the bullets
Speaker 1: that were found at each of those four crime scenes.
Speaker 1: It's part of a number of experts the state will
Speaker 1: be calling to show the jury the evidence to tie
Speaker 1: it to the Wagner family. They have to show this
Speaker 1: because we learned today there was no Wagner family members
Speaker 1: DNA at any of those four crime scenes. More on
Speaker 1: that next time. For more information on the case and
Speaker 1: relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
Speaker 1: The Piked and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane,
Speaker 1: Scott DeGraw, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ta Music by Jared Aston.
Speaker 1: The Piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and
Speaker 1: Katie Studios. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit
Speaker 1: the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting
Speaker 1: a podcast called The Girl Friends. It's Las Vegas, it's
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find a husband.
Speaker 1: There were four Jewish doctors who were felt to be
Speaker 1: eligible bachelors. One of them was of the Baron Matt
Speaker 1: On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, this guy's
Speaker 1: a wacko. He shouted to the point she went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to the Girlfriends
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years have been on
Speaker 1: the road, playing shows and seeing America through live music.
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Speaker 1: This is the story of a man who's fascinated me.
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