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Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast.

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Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have.

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Speaker 3: Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 3: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 3: best start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 4: Hello Bechdel Cast listeners. Hello, here we are.

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Speaker 1: Bet you didn't expect to hear us today. Well here

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Speaker 1: we are. Well, here we are fake holiday. So we're

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Speaker 1: clocking in.

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Speaker 4: We're clocking in, and we are re releasing an episode

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Speaker 4: on Rhymes fore Young Gruls, which we recorded back in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty, kind of in the height of lockdown, if

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Speaker 4: I remember correctly.

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Speaker 1: Yes, In fact, the day this episode originally came out,

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Speaker 1: I was arrested at a protest. Just to set us

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Speaker 1: in time and place. I had kind of a fun

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Speaker 1: physical response to revisiting this.

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Speaker 4: Episode, right, yes, oh my gosh. So yeah, we're re

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Speaker 4: releasing this episode on the day that a lot of

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Speaker 4: people still observe as American Thanksgiving, which which these days,

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Speaker 4: I you know. More, it is more widely understood that

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Speaker 4: the popular narrative around this quote unquote holiday is completely false,

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Speaker 4: and that it actually celebrates genocide and settler colonialism.

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Speaker 1: Is very much in conversation with Columbus Day for that

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Speaker 1: same reason.

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Speaker 4: You know, the the.

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Speaker 1: American celebration of genocide that is just really relentless. I

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Speaker 1: agree that, like people are coming around to acknowledging it,

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Speaker 1: but it's.

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Speaker 5: Still you know, it's here, it is, and I.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to both re release an episode that we

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Speaker 1: really love with a guest that you if you're a

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Speaker 1: longtime listener of the show, you're very familiar with Jess

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Speaker 1: Merwin talking about an indigenous film that does not shy

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Speaker 1: away from these themes and is very rooted in Canadian

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Speaker 1: reservation schools. So if you haven't seen the movie yet,

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Speaker 1: this is a great week to maybe watch the movie

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Speaker 1: and then listen to our conversation. But we wanted to

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Speaker 1: just yeah, pop in at the top and make a

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Speaker 1: few notes in about the half decade that's passed.

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Speaker 4: Indeed. Yes, So during this episode we talk about a

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Speaker 4: media metric called the Ala Test that was inspired by

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Speaker 4: the main character of this movie and that was originated

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Speaker 4: by friend of the show, Ali Noddy. Since this episode

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Speaker 4: was released, that test has been renamed to the Ali

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Speaker 4: Naughty Test. So if you're trying to look up the

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Speaker 4: Ala Test or whatever, the name has changed, but it's

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Speaker 4: the same metric that examines representation of Indigenous women in media.

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Speaker 1: So shout out Ali. We love Ali she Rocks.

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Speaker 4: Be sure to check her out on social media her

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Speaker 4: YouTube channel. She's doing excellent work. And then we wanted

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Speaker 4: to provide a content warning because both our discussion and

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Speaker 4: the context of the movie involve things like sexual and

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Speaker 4: physical violence, child sex abuse, suicide, just so listeners are

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Speaker 4: aware of that.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and also for what it's worth, Unfortunately, since we

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Speaker 1: recorded this, the filmmaker has passed. Jeff Barnaby passed away

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. Yeah, so yeah, definitely. I mean,

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Speaker 1: as you'll hear, it's a movie that we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of love for and also for what it's worth,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we fully intent and would love to hear

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Speaker 1: other Indigenous and Native filmmakers that you would like for

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Speaker 1: us to cover on the show. This is not something

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Speaker 1: that we want to just discuss once a year, and

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Speaker 1: so if you have requests for or just favorite indigenous filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: If you are an Indigenous filmmaker and would like to

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Speaker 1: come on the show, just reach out d m us.

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Speaker 1: That's honestly the easiest way to do it yeah on Instagram,

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Speaker 1: and yes, if you are with family today, best of

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Speaker 1: luck with that. And yeah, and also that we are

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Speaker 1: going to be making a contribution this week to the

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Speaker 1: Native Women's Collection. Will also you know, we can link

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Speaker 1: that in the description as well.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely. In the meantime, please enjoy this slightly abridged version

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Speaker 4: of this episode. I went back through and just edited

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Speaker 4: a little bit and made sure we really focused on

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Speaker 4: the movie at hand and didn't go into tirades about

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Speaker 4: me talking about cat nipples, for example, So that stuff

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Speaker 4: from the original episode has been trimmed out a bit.

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Speaker 1: But but listen to the original if you want the

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Speaker 1: full cut.

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Speaker 4: It's so true. But yeah, enjoy this re released episode

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Speaker 4: on Rhymes for Young Guls cast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really excited for today's episode and for our guest.

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Speaker 4: Yes, our guest today is a non binary, mixed race

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Speaker 4: MIGMA artist, curator and educator. Their work focuses on reclaiming

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Speaker 4: narrative space and fusing genre with social justice and holding

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Speaker 4: space collaboration. You also might have heard and seen them

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Speaker 4: on our recent live reading of Twilight. It is Jess Merwin.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Hi, welcome, Thank you for having me. I this

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Speaker 2: is like a dream come true. Quite literally, this is wonderful.

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: Yay, We're so happy to have you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like can't wait to talk about this,

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Speaker 2: this weird native movie that nobody's heard of.

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Speaker 1: We're really excited to talk about it because it was

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Speaker 1: originally recommended to us by Ali, who spoke about it

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Speaker 1: when Ali came on to discuss Frozen two a couple

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Speaker 1: of months ago podcast. Canonically, I think, what is time?

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Speaker 1: I've lost all.

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Speaker 4: Definitely is it.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, Ali brought this movie to us originally, and

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Speaker 1: we were kind of tipped off about this movie.

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Speaker 6: I guess we should just say the name of the movie.

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Speaker 6: I don't know what we're being No, it's a secret

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Speaker 6: about We were talking, of course, about Rhymes for Young Gules,

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Speaker 6: a Jeff Barnaby movie from twenty and thirteen, and the

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Speaker 6: reason we're talking about it with Ali was first of all,

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Speaker 6: because it's a movie that Ali's a big fan of,

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Speaker 6: but also because it was the basis for the Ala Test,

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Speaker 6: which is the test that Ali created.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and we'll talk about that in a little bit,

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Speaker 4: But first, Jess, what's your relationship with Rhymes for Young Gules?

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Speaker 2: Oh Man so growing up in like the eighties and

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Speaker 2: nineties as a mixed race like Migma kid. So I

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Speaker 2: don't I didn't grow up in Reserve, and I'm Migma

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Speaker 2: through my mother's mother, through my grandmother, and she had

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Speaker 2: been she was orphaned at a very young age, so

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Speaker 2: she didn't really grow up in a like a traditional

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Speaker 2: sort of way in terms of like learning how to

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Speaker 2: do a lot of like traditional Magma things. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: I was growing up with this like identity that was

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Speaker 2: very unresolved in a lot of ways, and I felt

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Speaker 2: like very conflicted about because it's you know, being white passing,

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Speaker 2: but also being like I'm also an indigenous person and

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Speaker 2: didn't really know how I like fit. And on top

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Speaker 2: of that, being queer and being trans and just dealing

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Speaker 2: with like a lot of other stuff meant that I

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Speaker 2: ended up feeling like I couldn't really like claim to anything.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It was just sort of like it's it's too much.

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Speaker 2: You can't be queer and native and you know, mentally ill,

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Speaker 2: it's just like too many things. So so when this

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Speaker 2: film came out, I had just been back in Canada

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Speaker 2: for a couple of years because I spent some time

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Speaker 2: living overseas and it was like, we have this expression

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Speaker 2: of trench. It's like a kut food, like a lightning strike,

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Speaker 2: and like we use it a lot, like when you're

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Speaker 2: like fall in love at first sight or when you

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Speaker 2: get like an idea, and it was almost like that

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Speaker 2: for seeing this film. You know, I was in my

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Speaker 2: sort of early twenties and just moved back to Canada

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Speaker 2: or like recent moved back to Canada and was sort

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Speaker 2: of like, oh my god, here's like a film about

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Speaker 2: Migma people with people speaking Magma and it's like the

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Speaker 2: first time that I'm ever seeing this, and all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden it sort of is like this way of

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Speaker 2: starting to reconnect with Magma culture, like all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden sort of like seeing this film and being like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, there is this part of me that's

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Speaker 2: like that feels something so profound in just like hearing

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Speaker 2: people speak Migma and seeing that represented on the screen.

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Speaker 2: And then and we'll talk about this a little bit,

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Speaker 2: but there was so much other stuff going on in

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Speaker 2: terms of like indigenous rights and Indigenous culture at that time,

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Speaker 2: and so it was like this was really the catalyst

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Speaker 2: for me like reconnecting in a big way to yeah,

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Speaker 2: to to sort of like Migmaness.

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Speaker 4: That's incredible and one of so many examples we see

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Speaker 4: of why representation is so important.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my relationship with this movie is it was not

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Speaker 4: super on my radar until I knew about.

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Speaker 1: A few months Blood Quantum. I did not know about

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Speaker 1: rhymes for youngl How did you.

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Speaker 2: Know about bood Quantum, Jamie.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think it was just I was paying closer attention

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Speaker 1: to movies that were coming out last year than I

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Speaker 1: was in twenty thirteen and twenty fourteen. But then when

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Speaker 1: Ali brought up rhymes for young gouls instead of with

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Speaker 1: the same director, I was like, oh and cool. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think we did have a couple listeners as well

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Speaker 4: recommend this movie to us, So it's been on our

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Speaker 4: kind of watch list, our list of movies to cover.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for our like horror movies last year

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Speaker 1: in the request it popped up a couple of times,

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Speaker 1: and maybe that was why I was familiar with it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but I'm happy to have seen the movie now.

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Speaker 4: I watched it three times. But yeah, I'm so excited

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Speaker 4: to talk about it. Should we dive into the recap? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: let's do it all, right, So we open with text

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Speaker 4: at the beginning describing the law in Canada that states

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Speaker 4: that every Indigenous child between the age of five and

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Speaker 4: sixteen must attend an Indian residential school. There are true

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Speaker 4: ruined officers who more or less police the schools and

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Speaker 4: the community, and who are responsible for bringing into custody

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Speaker 4: more or less any child who is absent from school,

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Speaker 4: and they are allowed to use force to do.

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Speaker 2: That, any force that they see necessary.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, So we're starting off.

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Speaker 1: Chill legal wording that was Yeah, yep.

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Speaker 2: So that's an excerpt from the Indian Act. And we

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Speaker 2: can talk a little bit more about this in terms

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Speaker 2: of like context for the film, because there's a lot

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Speaker 2: to talk about because it's an act that's been around

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Speaker 2: since essentially the beginning of Canada, since confederation in eighteen

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Speaker 2: sixty seven, and it still exists today. So that's cool.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so that's an actual law that essentially governs

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Speaker 2: all of the federal government's interactions with Indigenous people. So

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Speaker 2: to say it's racist is a little bit of an understatement.

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Speaker 2: And this kind of like opening package that Jeff is

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Speaker 2: chosen here kind of helps like highlight a lot of

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Speaker 2: the issues with the Indian.

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Speaker 1: Act, absolutely, and I feel like we goofy Americans have

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Speaker 1: a tendency to really romanticize Canada as this place of

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Speaker 1: justice that it you know, clearly is not. And so

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Speaker 1: I mean, even just from the beginning frame of the movie,

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Speaker 1: you're just like, yeah, no, we are desperate to feel

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Speaker 1: a way about Canada that is not true.

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Speaker 2: No, no. And it's one of those things too that like,

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Speaker 2: you know, don't get me wrong, we have like legal

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Speaker 2: weed and free healthcare, so pretty you know, things are

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Speaker 2: pretty good. But on the other hand, yeah, we do

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Speaker 2: still have a lot of the systemic racism and discrimination

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Speaker 2: that exists in the United States, and like Canadians are

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Speaker 2: you know, aren't necessarily all like super polite and super

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Speaker 2: for you know, courteous, Like there's I think that we

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Speaker 2: have this sort of angel complex with regards to the

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Speaker 2: rest of the world where we're like, oh, we're perfect,

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Speaker 2: We're not the United States, and it's like.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the bar is on the floor, like.

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Speaker 2: All the Native people in the back are like, m well,

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, have you read that law lately?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Or even just the fact that like since this

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Speaker 2: year there's been like a half dozen high profile killings

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Speaker 2: of Indigenous people, either at the hands of police or

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Speaker 2: at the hands of our medical system. You know that

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Speaker 2: sins like January horrifying.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, So we open on the movie. It is

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Speaker 4: nineteen sixty nine. We are on a fictional reserve called

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Speaker 4: the Red Crow Indian Reservation. We meet a Migma family,

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Speaker 4: including young Ala. She's a little girl who loved to

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Speaker 4: try and she usually draws kind of like morbid horror

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Speaker 4: imagery of like zombies and ghoules and whatnot. She has

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Speaker 4: a little brother, Tyler. We meet her mother, Anna, and

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Speaker 4: her father Joseph, as well as her uncle Berner. They

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Speaker 4: are all drug dealers on the reserve. When then one night,

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Speaker 4: the adults they're all smoking weed, they're drinking heavily, and

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Speaker 4: then a bunch of tragic things happen kind of all

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Speaker 4: at once, where AILA's mother accidentally kills her little brother

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Speaker 4: Tyler in a drunk driving accident, and then her mother

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Speaker 4: kills herself. Her father takes the blame for it and

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Speaker 4: is taken away to prison.

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Speaker 2: So that's put in like the first ten minutes of

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Speaker 2: this movie that we're talking about on a humorous podcast.

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Speaker 2: You know, and it doesn't. I think that there's like

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Speaker 2: a lot of stuff even in that that we should

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Speaker 2: talk about in terms of like pictions of Indians using

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Speaker 2: drugs and being broken. But again, like all of these

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Speaker 2: parentheses are kind of like paragraphs, So it might make

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Speaker 2: more sense to finish with like the plot smur and

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Speaker 2: then get into it because otherwise, yeah, it's like, right,

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Speaker 2: we got things to say.

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Speaker 4: It is so much.

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Speaker 1: It is quite a bit of trauma in I think

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Speaker 1: ninety seconds. Yeah, it all happens very very very quickly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and then there continues to be trauma after this.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yes, So we cut to seven years later.

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Speaker 4: It is now the mid seventies. A La played by

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Speaker 4: Davey Jacobs is now a teenager living with her uncle Berner,

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Speaker 4: and we also learned that Berner is kind of a

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Speaker 4: snitch in the community where he kind of rats out

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Speaker 4: his fellow man on the reserve to these white truant officers,

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Speaker 4: the main one of those being this guy named Popper,

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Speaker 4: and Popper comes to collect quote truant taxes, which are

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Speaker 4: basically this family bribing him so that the kids don't

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Speaker 4: have to go to the nearby residential school. And we

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Speaker 4: will also provide a lot of context in our discussion

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Speaker 4: about residential schools and that system, but it's know that

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Speaker 4: it's a place that you don't want to go. So

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Speaker 4: ALA's friends Solo and Angus tell her that Solo had

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Speaker 4: gotten robbed by Stripper and can't pay the truant tax,

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Speaker 4: and Aila realizes that Popper kind of set up this

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Speaker 4: whole thing. And this I might need a little bit

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Speaker 4: of clarification on my kind of assumption, was that Popper

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Speaker 4: did that kind of like orchestrated this whole setup and

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Speaker 4: like robbed them so that they wouldn't be able to

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Speaker 4: pay the bribe so that he could justify sending them

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Speaker 4: to the school.

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Speaker 2: Is that Yeah, I think that's that's sort of the idea.

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Speaker 2: And I think that also has to do with the

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Speaker 2: fact that Joseph is coming out of prison. Like essentially

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Speaker 2: Popper sets up Burner in that first sort of scene

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Speaker 2: where he's like they're at the fish Mitten and he's like,

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Speaker 2: thanks for telling us you're here, so they'll get the

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Speaker 2: shit kicked out of him by guys in the community,

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Speaker 2: so that like Joseph will come home and stay in line, okay, right,

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Speaker 2: And so that's also part of like why Popper would

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Speaker 2: steal their money is because then you know, he can

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Speaker 2: get Scholo and Angus and Aila, you know, scoop them

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Speaker 2: up and take them to the to Saint Demfinas to

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Speaker 2: the residential school. That's sort of again like a way

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Speaker 2: of sort of being like you know, and this will

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Speaker 2: keep Joseph in.

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Speaker 4: Line, got it right, because he gets released from prison.

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Speaker 4: And we also meet Cyrus, a kind of grandmother figure

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Speaker 4: for Aila, and she tells a story about a wolf

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Speaker 4: that's kind of delirious and ends a beautiful animal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, but I didn't. I didn't.

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Speaker 4: I was.

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Speaker 1: I love when I don't see an animated sequence coming

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Speaker 1: and then it hasn't been beautiful. I loved it.

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Speaker 4: There's one. There's one like that in Blood Quantum too.

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Speaker 4: That's really cool.

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Speaker 1: Oh cool.

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Speaker 2: And in both of the cases, like Jeff's using it

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Speaker 2: as a way to sort of like insert some of

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Speaker 2: the like oral tradition and like the way that like

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Speaker 2: our traditional storytelling works and sort of differentiate and distinguish

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Speaker 2: it from the rest of the story.

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Speaker 4: Right, you know.

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Speaker 2: And it's really interesting because like talking about the animation, I,

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Speaker 2: you know, I also as an animator, like love those sequences,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, I think I think some people sort of

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Speaker 2: when they first saw the movie were like, I don't

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Speaker 2: get it. I don't get why there's like an animated sequence.

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Speaker 2: It's like, nah, you just got to like experience it

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Speaker 2: as part of the film, you know.

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Speaker 4: Like, Yeah, so we hear this story about a wolf

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Speaker 4: that is like kind of ruaming the land. It's delirious

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Speaker 4: and it ends up eating itself, which I'm interested to

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Speaker 4: kind of talk about like thematic implications of that later on.

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Speaker 4: But so Aila decides to steal the money back that

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Speaker 4: got robbed from them, and we also at this around

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Speaker 4: this time, reveal that Aila has now gotten into this

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Speaker 4: drug business ever since her father left for prison, and

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Speaker 4: her dad, Joseph, comes back and is like kind of disappointed,

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Speaker 4: disappointed to learn that Berner let her get into all this.

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Speaker 4: But because she's an artist, she's like a really skilled

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Speaker 4: kind of crafts person of like rolling the joints and

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Speaker 4: like flavoring them and like lacing them and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, damn, she's cool.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she's so very cool.

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Speaker 2: It's also she doesn't like one of the things that

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Speaker 2: keeps coming back, like and even one of the things

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Speaker 2: that like in that scene, you know, Berner's like been

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Speaker 2: drinking and smoking and stuff like that. She's like, you

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Speaker 2: can't roll for shit, Like she doesn't. She never, like

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Speaker 2: she doesn't spoke weed. And that's like also part of

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Speaker 2: like that gas mask is like this idea of sort

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Speaker 2: of like yeah, she's she's also sort of like not

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Speaker 2: she's part of this world, but she's not like in

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Speaker 2: that world in the same functioning, in the same way

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Speaker 2: as the people around her.

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Speaker 4: She's not gonna be a wolf who eats herself. She's

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Speaker 4: not gonna destroy herself. Yeah. So Ala pitches this plan

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Speaker 4: to her friend's Sholoh and Angus that they break into

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Speaker 4: the nearby residential school Saint Dez is what they like

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Speaker 4: nickname it, and they're gonna steal their money back from Popper.

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Speaker 4: So she orchestrates this heist. She draws a map. There's

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Speaker 4: this little kid, jujij who I think does he attend

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Speaker 4: the school? Yeah, and and he will kind of be

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Speaker 4: theres like the inside man. He's the man on the inside.

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Speaker 1: I think he's like ten.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what that kid is doing now, but

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Speaker 2: oh my god, what a sweet kid, like I know,

359
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Speaker 2: a star.

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Speaker 4: He always calls a La boss.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He's like, well, what now, boss, I yeah, and Tuci

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Speaker 2: is like, A, I don't know if that would be

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Speaker 2: like his given name, because that's like a nickname mgma

365
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Speaker 2: oh okay, which means like like little bug or little thing.

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Speaker 1: Ah, I'm as stand yeah.

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Speaker 4: So meanwhile, Ala is having some dreams and visions of

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Speaker 4: her dead mother and brother, sometimes as zombies, sometimes not,

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Speaker 4: but this is kind of like a recurring visual motif

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Speaker 4: throughout the film. And then one day Ala is out

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Speaker 4: with her dad and they have this violent run in

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Speaker 4: with Popper and his cronies because Berner sold them out

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Speaker 4: to Popper and let them know about ALA's plan to

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Speaker 4: break into the school. So Popper's like, you wanted to

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Speaker 4: go into the school, fine, now you're you're there. So

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Speaker 4: he sends her there as punishment, but and correct me

377
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Speaker 4: if I'm mistaken, But it feels like that's kind of

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Speaker 4: part of her plan. She gets sent there on purpose

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Speaker 4: so that she can also kind of be on the inside.

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Speaker 4: Or I might be wrong about that. I'm not totally sure.

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Speaker 2: The thing, you know what I've gone over the years,

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Speaker 2: I've gone back and forth on it, honestly. Caitlin like

383
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Speaker 2: I feel like when I first saw the film, I

384
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Speaker 2: was like, Oh, this is definitely like like she's improvising,

385
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Speaker 2: sort of like this wasn't her plan. And I sort

386
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Speaker 2: of feel like now when I'm seeing it, I'm like,

387
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Speaker 2: I feel like this was part of her plan in

388
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Speaker 2: a way, because Jiuji knows to come and let her

389
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Speaker 2: out of the hole. Uh huh, right, yeah, So like

390
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Speaker 2: I think that it was her plan, right.

391
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Speaker 1: I was also questioning that because I was like, if

392
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Speaker 1: if that was her plan? Galaxy brain genius, right, like,

393
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Speaker 1: because the first time I watched the movie, it didn't

394
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Speaker 1: even occur to me. But then on the second watch,

395
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Speaker 1: I was like, wait, she's so smart that it didn't

396
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Speaker 1: even occur to me that that might have been intentional.

397
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Speaker 2: Right, But I also think that it sort of like

398
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Speaker 2: speaks to the character that Aila is, and like because

399
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Speaker 2: I think in a way that she she talks about

400
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Speaker 2: aging a thousand years, and I think that like after

401
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 2: her mother, and I think that there is a certain

402
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: wisdom in that character that's sort of outpaced with her age,

403
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Speaker 2: you know, And and like at the end of the film,

404
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: you know, Joseph says to her, like, you know, I

405
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Speaker 2: just want you to know, you're a little girl. Yeah,

406
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Speaker 2: and she's like, I was never a little girl. I

407
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Speaker 2: think that there is a certain she knows that Berner

408
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Speaker 2: is gonna crack under pressure and wrap them out, like yeah,

409
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Speaker 2: and she knows that like there's a there's a chance

410
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Speaker 2: of that. So I think that she's kind of got

411
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Speaker 2: some ideas in her head. She knows that they're not

412
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Speaker 2: supposed to go out on the water. They've been out

413
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Speaker 2: on the water, you know, so I think that I

414
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Speaker 2: think it is planned.

415
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Speaker 4: Mm hmmmmm. She also like engages in that fight where

416
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Speaker 4: she could have just like stood back, and I think maybe, like,

417
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Speaker 4: oh if she if she's fighting there, that's going to

418
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Speaker 4: be all the more reason that they might send her

419
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Speaker 4: to the school. For sure. In any case she gets

420
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Speaker 4: sent there, they cut her hair off, they put her

421
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Speaker 4: in solitary confinement.

422
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Speaker 2: That's it. Like that's the scene that still and I've

423
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Speaker 2: seen this film so many times now throughout the years,

424
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Speaker 2: I still cry every time I watch that scene. That

425
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Speaker 2: scene is so hard to watch because they used to

426
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Speaker 2: do that to people, you know, yeah, and for us,

427
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Speaker 2: like your hair is really sacred because it's your connection

428
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Speaker 2: back to like the earth, so I'm tearing up now

429
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Speaker 2: even talking about it. So like the you know, that

430
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: was one of the things that they always used to

431
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Speaker 2: do when the kids were taking to residential schools, as

432
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Speaker 2: they would cut off their braids. And I was doing

433
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Speaker 2: this project with a bunch of youth up north here

434
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Speaker 2: in Quebec, where we were creating this like woven tapestry,

435
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: and it was all made up of these different like

436
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 2: lengths of braid that were woven together into this like

437
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: five x ten tapestry. And we had this one elder

438
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: who came and sat with us one day and was

439
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 2: like telling us about her residential school experience and was

440
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: talking about how seeing all these braids woven together was

441
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 2: like so powerful to her because and this was not,

442
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: you know, not something I had really thought about beforehand,

443
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 2: but she was talking about how like, you know, you

444
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: would see all the hair too, like after all the

445
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 2: kids had had their haircut off, just like swept to

446
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: the side, you know, like all these braids like on

447
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 2: the ground. So it holds a lot of cultural significance

448
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 2: in that way.

449
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that scene was Yeah, that scene was devastating.

450
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: And also if you don't really know whether she planned

451
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: or not to get sent to Saint Diffin as all

452
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 2: of a sudden, You're like, our hero is in this peril.

453
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 2: You know, you don't know what's going to happen to

454
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: her next.

455
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 4: Right, so it's either like a huge deliberate sacrifice or

456
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 4: just her kind of falling victim to these horrible circumstances.

457
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: Yeah.

458
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, So while this is happening, her friend's sholo Angus.

459
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 4: And then there's another friend of theirs who I'd never

460
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 4: caught the name of Maytag. Is that Maytag? Okay? Yeah,

461
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:55,479
Speaker 4: so they are prepping for this heist and they go

462
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 4: into the school, they break Ala out, they rig up

463
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 4: the plumbing so that literal human shit comes out when

464
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 4: Papper turns on the shower, which satisfying.

465
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, so satisfying, really good stuff, and like a whole

466
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 6: bunch of like male full frontal nudity.

467
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 2: Not that it was like you were wanting it, that's sailing,

468
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 2: but it's like this independent Canadian film where you get

469
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: to see like a whole lot of dick there.

470
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: Like to see a little bit of shit raining on

471
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: full frontal nudity.

472
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 4: Right, You're just like you deserve this.

473
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's just at the lowest moment in that

474
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 2: moment and you're just like, ah, so.

475
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: Good that's been.

476
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: That's been kind of a I feel like a discussion

477
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 1: that's been picking up in the last couple of years

478
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: of like how rare male nudity is shown period, and

479
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: then on top of that, when it is shown, like

480
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: the way it shown is never humiliating, which whatever speaks

481
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: to who making most movies. But it was that's true, right,

482
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: very satisfying to see him humiliated in such a like

483
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: primal way.

484
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, oh totally, and especially because you

485
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: you've sort of spent the entire movie up to this

486
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 2: point just watching him and his goons kick the shit

487
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 2: at everybody, you know, and it's like I remember seeing this.

488
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: So when I originally saw this film, I saw it

489
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: at a festival, and at that point the film when

490
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: Hopper's like lying on the bathroom floor covered in shit

491
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: just like I'm gonna get you people that the audience

492
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: were like cheering. It was amazing, you know, it was

493
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 2: like the end of Get Out. People were like full

494
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: on like being like yeah.

495
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yeah, this would have been a cool

496
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: movie to see in theaters. Yeah, god damn it.

497
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: It was. It got a really limited release. So I

498
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: was fortuned to see end a festival. But we'll talk

499
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: about that. That's that's also something we need to like, Yeah,

500
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 2: I think people need to think about sometime for sure.

501
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. So he's covered in shit. Meanwhile, they steal

502
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 4: the money out of his safe and run away. They

503
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 4: get away with I think twenty thousand dollars. But when

504
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 4: Aila gets back home, she finds out that her grandmother, Sarahs,

505
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 4: has been killed by Popper's thugs. And then when Popper

506
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 4: comes for Aila, he beats her. He's about to rape her,

507
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 4: but then little Jujij shows up with a gun and

508
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 4: another very cathartic moment blows Popper's head off. AILA's father

509
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 4: takes the fall for it again. He gets carted off

510
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 4: to prison again, and then the story ends with a

511
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 4: it is that a family friend or a relative juicegu

512
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 4: or juicegu? I wasn't sure. Oh the old man, Yeah.

513
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so he's like he's like a family friend. Okay,

514
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: there's a lot of like on small reserves. We always

515
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: joked that it's like, well, everybody's related like somehow. It's

516
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: like they're probably related.

517
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 4: Somehow, like right, Yeah, he was the guy who earlier

518
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 4: in the story had also there was talk of him

519
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 4: having aged a thousand years because he had gone to

520
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 4: fight in World War Two and came back like a

521
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 4: thousand years older because he had like lied about his age,

522
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 4: saying he was older than he was to be able

523
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 4: to fight and then you know, experience a trauma of

524
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 4: war and then came back.

525
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: And he gives Aila a really interesting piece of advice

526
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 2: during that conversation too that they're having when they talk

527
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 2: about him being a thousand years older, because he's the

528
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: only other character that we here referred to in that way,

529
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: and he says this thing that I ended up picking

530
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: up on and I ended up reading a couple of

531
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: articles about it too, of like, you know, he's like

532
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: courages sometimes moving with the dead, you know, like as

533
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: like bodies were sort of piling up. You know, it's

534
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: like you have to keep moving. And I think that

535
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: that's almost an interesting like thesis point, I think, or

536
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: like what AILA's doing in a certain way of sort

537
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 2: of like despite everything, like having to like keep moving forward,

538
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: Like you know, they are going to be casualties along

539
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: the way, but it's like you have to keep moving forward.

540
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 2: Because otherwise you're one of them, you know, right. So yeah,

541
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: so he's an interesting character. He pops up a little

542
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 2: bit in Blood Quantum too. It's interesting because Blood Quantum

543
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: also takes place on the Red Crow Reserve and yes,

544
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: but in like a parallel universe.

545
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 4: So because the Fish Mittens Strip Club is also in

546
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 4: Blood Quantum.

547
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love an expanded universe, that's the right.

548
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. So so there's like these interesting sort of like

549
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: crossover points that kind of happen where like and a

550
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: lot of the folks I think in the film weren't actors.

551
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,719
Speaker 2: I think that like some of them are just like

552
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: people who maybe had a little bit of like outside

553
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: of like the main cast, who are like Canadian indigenous,

554
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: like Film Royalty. Glenn Gould has been in everything like

555
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: you don't make it like you don't make a Native

556
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: film in Canada and not include Glenn Gould because what

557
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: are you doing? Who plays Joseph in the film.

558
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: He's incredible. I mean that like the scene that I think, like,

559
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: I mean stuck out to be I'm sure everybody was.

560
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: The scene at his wife's grave was just so oh

561
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: holy shit, It's just like, yeah, he was, He's incredible.

562
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, So then this character shows up who we've

563
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 4: seen here, and there is just saying like Aila, I

564
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 4: don't want you. I don't want you to work in

565
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 4: this drug trade anymore. And she's like, good, I don't

566
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 4: want to either. And then Juji the little Boy comes

567
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 4: back and he's like, okay, now what do we do boss?

568
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 4: And she's like, I don't know. And that's how the

569
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 4: movie ends. Let's take a quick break and then we'll

570
00:31:49,240 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 4: come back for discussion, and we're back.

571
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: Yes, where shall we begin?

572
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's probably helpful to provide some historical

573
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 4: context for the residential school system, because you really have

574
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 4: to have an understanding of what that is to appreciate

575
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 4: the events of this film and why the characters are

576
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 4: doing everything that they do to not have to go

577
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 4: to a residential school for sure.

578
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: And I think that it'd be good too to talk

579
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: a little bit about the a little bit about reserves,

580
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: and a little bit about the Indian Act, because I

581
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: think that there's like there's layers to this, right, It's

582
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: not just the residential school, it's like it's everything, you know,

583
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: And this time watching it through too, where I was

584
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: thinking a lot about like the violence in the film

585
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,959
Speaker 2: and thinking about how it's sort of it's incessant, like

586
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: it's just like around every corner, like ALA's just biking

587
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: down the road at one point and like somebody like

588
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: comes out of nowhere and punch and like yeah, and

589
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: that's you know, such a visual metaphor for I think

590
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: what it feels like sometimes to be a like a

591
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: marginalized person, whether it's you know, your you're black, Indigenous,

592
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: or like a person of color, or whether you're trans

593
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: or whether you're I think that there's like a sense

594
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: sometimes of like things can come out of nowhere and

595
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: kind of like knock you on your ass. So uh, yeah,

596
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: just to talk a little bit about and like feel

597
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: free to jump in too. But yeah, so talk to

598
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about the Indian Act because that's

599
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: kind of where it all starts off, right. So the

600
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: Indian Act was officially passed in eighteen seventy six. I

601
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: hope there's no like Canadian history buffs who are like

602
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: like checking my because like it's the one like I

603
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: can remember meeting a person ten years ago for like

604
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes, but I cannot rumber dates.

605
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: For the life well most of our most of our

606
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: listenership are Canadian history scholars.

607
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 4: So yes, but I do believe that date is correct. Yes,

608
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 4: I have that in my notes as well.

609
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: Awesome. Yeah So, but before that there had been sort

610
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 2: of a patchwork of different colonial laws that had existed,

611
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 2: and then sort of when Canada became like a country

612
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 2: as opposed to sort of different like sort of colonies,

613
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: you know, like between like New France and Upper Canada

614
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: and Lower Canada, then it was sort of brought into

615
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: law in a sort of more official sense. And the

616
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 2: Indian Act. The short version of the Indian Act is

617
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: that it was legislation that was designed to very literally

618
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 2: like legislate out of existence indigenous people, and it did

619
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 2: that through a number of ways. So the residential schools,

620
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: which we'll talk more about, were part of the Indian Act.

621
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 2: This idea that you'll civilize and, abusing air quotes, you'll

622
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: civilize indiangenous children and assimilate them into Canadian society. The

623
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: Indian Act also, you know, targeted women. So if you

624
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 2: were an Indigenous woman and you married a non indigenous man,

625
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 2: you lost your status and indigenous status our native status

626
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 2: which exists in the United States as well, is sort

627
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: of like your only pathway for being able to access

628
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 2: things like on reserve housing, like certain like educational scholarships

629
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: and benefits and things like that are only accessible through

630
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 2: your status card. There's other services and things like that

631
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: that are only accessible through your status card. So losing

632
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: your status, you know, was a big deal, and so

633
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: we often refer to when women married non indigenous men

634
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 2: has happened a lot in the you know, early days

635
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: of Canada as marrying out because it was essentially like, well,

636
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: now you're out of the culture, goodbye, one less Indian.

637
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: And you know, there were other things like the Indian

638
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: Act did. You couldn't leave the reserve to get a

639
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: higher education. You couldn't just like leave the reserve togotiate

640
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: a doctor. There was a whole system of passes that

641
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: Indigenous people had to have for a long time, Like

642
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: it was essentially like a passport that said like okay,

643
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: I'm leaving my reserve now, and that you know, there

644
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: was no thought given to It's like okay, well we

645
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 2: don't have a hospital on reserve. I have to leave

646
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: the reserve to go to the hospital, or even just

647
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: like I want to go visit a friend on a

648
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: different reserve, like you'd have to like have that passport

649
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 2: signed off on by the Indian agent, who could also

650
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 2: say no. So people's movement was really controlled. People's lives

651
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 2: were really controlled. And like I said, you know, disproportionately.

652
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: The Indian Act targeted children and women through things like

653
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: the residential school system, through things like losing status if

654
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 2: you married out, which wasn't applied to men. If men,

655
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: if Indigenous men married non Indigenous women, their non Indigenous

656
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 2: wives would get status and all their children would get status.

657
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: Oh and they were able to remain a part of

658
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: their communities. Yeah, Jesus Christ.

659
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: So like it's not even like, uh, it's so blatant.

660
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 2: It's almost like a bond villain who's like, and then

661
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to set up the laser and then it's

662
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: going to catch you in half, and then I'm going

663
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: to take over the world. It's like the Canadian government

664
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: essentially said from the beginning, we don't want any more

665
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: Indigenous people, and this is what we're gonna do to

666
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: get rid of them. However, the double edged sword of

667
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 2: the Indian of the Indian Act, you know, and you're

668
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 2: I can imagine it's sort of like, well, if it's

669
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 2: so terrible and so sexist and so racist, just get

670
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 2: rid of it. Unfortunately, it's really one of the major

671
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: legislative tools that we have in Canada as Indigenous people

672
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: to be able to hold the federal government accountable because

673
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: it defines what an Indigenous person is, so which is

674
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: just like magnitudes of frustrating.

675
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so.

676
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: Originally, and this ties into the film. In nineteen sixty nine,

677
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 2: Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who Justin Trudeau's daddy, was Prime Minister

678
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 2: at the time, and he introduced this essentially this act

679
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: that would have gotten rid of the Indian Act. This

680
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: is so this is nineteen sixty nine. This paper ended

681
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 2: up becoming called the White Paper, and it was this

682
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: really catalyzing moment for a lot of what we call

683
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 2: red power or like an Indigenous like civil rights movement

684
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: sort of stuff began happening because you know, people were

685
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: really hit to the idea that like, if we get

686
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 2: rid of the status of Indian, which is what it

687
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 2: would have been called at the time, then the government

688
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: doesn't legally have any enforceable responsibility towards Indians. If Indians

689
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 2: don't exist, they don't exist. Does that make sense right?

690
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure, yes, it makes sense the way you're explaining it.

691
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: It's just okay that that's so. There's so many layers

692
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: of mind fuckery going on.

693
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's a whole like it's a whole terror

694
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 2: issue of like fucked up, which is terrible. I shouldn't

695
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: do that to Terra Massu Taaramasus.

696
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: Delightful will recovery.

697
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 2: Tarasu's got a good rap, you know, I feel like

698
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: it can come back from this. But yeah, so so

699
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: what the solution has sort of become, you know, is

700
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 2: because we can't get rid of the Indian Act, it's

701
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: sort of amend it and a lot of these amendments,

702
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: I think sort of the most recent big push of amendments.

703
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: There's little things going through all the time, but I

704
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: think two thousand and two was like a big push

705
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: of like a whole bunch of amendments to it. In

706
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 2: the eighties, we had a big push of amendments that

707
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 2: allowed women who had lost their status through marriage to

708
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 2: get their status back, which was a huge thing. You know.

709
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: I had I have a friend who you know, at

710
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: that point in time, was already you know, like a

711
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: teenager and she talks about how important it was like

712
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 2: that moment when her mom gets status back, which meant

713
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: that she could get status, and like because even though

714
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: it isn't like like having status is not what makes

715
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 2: you an indigenous person, sure it still can feel like

716
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: a very significant thing in terms of belonging. Sure, you know,

717
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 2: of course, yeah, so is this whole sort of mess. Unfortunately,

718
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: and the Indian agents, like we see Popper in the film,

719
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: were the enforcers of this incredibly racist law. So Indian

720
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 2: agents had total, like unchecked control. It was like even

721
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: worse in some ways than sort of like you know

722
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: how we talk about like, oh, you know, the sheriff

723
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 2: and the Old West, and you know, they could sort

724
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: of make up the rules as they go along. Indian

725
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: agents were sort of that, except they were white, racist assholes. So,

726
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: you know, I've read different things over the years about

727
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: like people talking about how like, oh, well, is Popper's

728
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: attitude and behavior a little bit extreme. It's like, well,

729
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 2: like some of the stuff did happen, Like some of

730
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 2: the stuff we know has happened because we've heard stories

731
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 2: from people and it's also been documented. You know, By

732
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: the time that we get to the late sixties early seventies,

733
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: the Indian agents were starting to be phased out because

734
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 2: we were starting to move into a new period in

735
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 2: terms of like the Indian Act, and like I said,

736
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: some of those like big changes that were to come

737
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 2: in the eighties, but at the time, we still had

738
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: Indian agents that were quite sort of literally allowed to

739
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: do whatever the fuck they wanted with impunity. You had

740
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 2: Indian agents in the States as well, and they were

741
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: this may be chuckle, not because it's funny, but because

742
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: it's sort of again Macavelian. The original Indian agents were

743
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: under the US War Department initially, which is like very blatantly.

744
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: Like could you be any less like clear about how

745
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: you feel? Yeah, Jesus Christ.

746
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. So so, But what happened with the Indian agents

747
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 2: and the States is as we moved through the eighteen

748
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 2: hundreds and into the nineteen hundreds, they sort of transitioned

749
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 2: into being superintendents for what the AMIC equivalent of residential

750
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 2: schools is the Indian boarding school system, and they were

751
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: that position shifted into more of a civilian role later on,

752
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: but yeah, it was it was like a government Department

753
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 2: of War position. It was essentially like I brought up

754
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: in the Twilight Reading it was to swindle people out

755
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: of their land whatever way you could, And yeah, it

756
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: was it was about like this idea of like manifest destiny.

757
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 2: You know, it's like, well, we've we've arrived and now

758
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: it's ours. Like yeah, So that's a little bit of

759
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: a background on the Indian Act and so, like I said,

760
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: the residential school system was established as part of the

761
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: Indian Act under the mandate of kill the Indian and

762
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: educate the child sort of thing, which is just like

763
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: a real cool, chill sentiment to have. And so they

764
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: started out, you know, we had Jesuit schools, especially coming

765
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: into like New France, oh sort of what is like

766
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: Nova Scotia and Brunswick like part of Quebec, like New

767
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 2: England sort of area. So we would have had like

768
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 2: early Jesubit schools, and like you know, those were a

769
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: little bit less rigorously sort of organized than those that

770
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 2: are mostly we're in the sixteen hundreds, some in the

771
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 2: seventeen hundreds. But like I said, it functioned a lot

772
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: more sort of like what's that word as a missionary

773
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 2: sort of effort. Like it was like we're gonna go

774
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: on Christianize.

775
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: Sure, there's nothing colonial about this, No.

776
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: We're just talking about Jesus. And it's really interesting because

777
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: we from that the Migmah converted to Christianity in sixteen

778
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: oh four, and like a lot of that had to

779
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 2: do with the presence of like Jesuit missionaries in Mgmagi

780
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: in Migma Terratory at the time. But moving out of

781
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: that period, moving into the moving into the nineteenth century

782
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: is when we sort of get officially into the like

783
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 2: what we call the residential school period. And these were

784
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: schools that were government funded, managed by Christian churches. So

785
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,919
Speaker 2: there was like different denominations that were involved. The Roman

786
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: Catholic Church was a big one of course, but like

787
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 2: there were Presbyterians, I think, Anglican Anglicans. Yeah, the Church

788
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 2: of England was very big just kind of not facilitating

789
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 2: getting all tripped up on my words, but like essentially

790
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 2: administering the school. So like they were all run by

791
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 2: nuns and priests and like layered clergy as sort of

792
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: like the only attendance at the school. And we estimate

793
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: that about one hundred and fifty thousand children Indigenous children

794
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: in Canada went to residential school.

795
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: And is it safe to I just for our listeners

796
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: who are not fully clear and what the intent was.

797
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: The intent of the school is to take your culture

798
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 1: from you and replace it with something else.

799
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was essentially that it was this idea that like,

800
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 2: like I said, you know, like it's the idea of

801
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 2: like killing the Indian through education. So you'd be taken

802
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: away from your community, you'd be taken out of your language,

803
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: so you only spoke English. At residential school. They would

804
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: cut off your braids much like we see in the movie.

805
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 2: You'd be wearing Western clothing. You'd only be educated, educated

806
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 2: in sort of like European centric like history and like

807
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 2: customs and mannerisms. In the States more than in Canada,

808
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: there was also like this idea of vocational training. But yeah,

809
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: it was about westernizing indigenous Indigenous kids because they were

810
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: seen as being savages.

811
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I like it was forced assimilation. And then in

812
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 4: addition to that, it was also the like officials at

813
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 4: these schools inflicting severe amounts of emotional, physical, and sexual

814
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 4: abuse upon the children. A lot of children died in

815
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 4: the residential schoo system. Yeah. Throughout the years, there was

816
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 4: a lot of like malnutrition. I read I even read

817
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 4: some cases of like experiments being done on the children. Yeah,

818
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 4: and there was just like not really much education happening.

819
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 4: It was just abuse.

820
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 2: No, And that's sort of the problem, right, is that

821
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 2: their primary goal was forced assimulation.

822
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: You know.

823
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 2: Their goal wasn't to sort of build young people up

824
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: so that they'd be able to stand in the world afterwards,

825
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 2: you know, like like one would hope that the education

826
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: system does to some degree. It was it was really

827
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 2: about like, you are bad, you are dirty. We're going

828
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 2: to make you clean and pure, and you know, we

829
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 2: can't bleach you, but will make you as white as possible.

830
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: You know. It decimated now that about six thousand children

831
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: died as a result of the regidential school system. However,

832
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 2: those numbers don't take into account well one, you know,

833
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: the records are not complete. A lot of schools as

834
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 2: they were shutting down, you know, especially in the eighties

835
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 2: and nineties, you know, burned records just like wholesale got

836
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: rid of stuff. Was like we don't know, graves were

837
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: often not marked. So there's been a whole process even

838
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: now sort of like trying to figure out like people

839
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 2: trying to figure out where their relatives are buried. Conditions

840
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: in the school were really terrible. You know, so kids

841
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 2: were not only dying of like malnutrition, but also disease,

842
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 2: also of abuse. Like at times the abuse would be

843
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 2: so severe, Like there was one case that I was

844
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: reading about where the children were routinely like electrocuted and

845
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 2: like small doses, and sometimes they would die because they

846
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 2: were like as a punishment being electrocuted.

847
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 1: And that doesn't even take into account the I think

848
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: what we see through al as parents is like the

849
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: after effects of that abuse and how if you do

850
00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 1: make it out, what is life like after that, know,

851
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: coping with all that Yeah, trauma, Oh exactly.

852
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 2: And you know that's just it too. Like how many people,

853
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: you know, their whole lives have had to struggle with,

854
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, the weight of that abuse. Have you know,

855
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 2: people who have died by suicide, Like, yeah, it's it's

856
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: it's a very hard thing to put a number on,

857
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 2: you know, the fatalities of people coming in through the

858
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 2: residential school system because it was this terrible, terrible, terrible,

859
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: terrible machine that just like like I said, you know,

860
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: was meant to get rid of what the Prime Minister

861
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 2: at the times for John A. MacDonald, which was he

862
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 2: was like very famous Canadian prime minister from my back

863
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 2: when Cannon was sort of created as a country. You know,

864
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 2: like he was like the Indian problem, Like people were

865
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 2: seen as a problem. It was like, oh, well, we'll

866
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: just get rid of them, you know. You know, we

867
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 2: talked about this a little bit before the phone call,

868
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 2: you know, YouTube were sort of saying, like, you didn't

869
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: learn anything about this in school. I learned a little

870
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: bit about this in school, but it's really only been

871
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 2: the last like couple generations that we've even started talking

872
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: about this openly. So the last residents of school in

873
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: Canada closed in nineteen ninety six. Yeah, you know, so

874
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 2: like there are people my age whose like parents went

875
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: to residential school, you know, and their aunties and uncles

876
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: and like we're really directly impacted by that. Yeah, and

877
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 2: we just didn't talk about it. We just didn't talk

878
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 2: about it. We'd like there was a sense that for

879
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 2: a really long time, even like in two thousand and nine,

880
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister of Canada, Stephen Harper, was like Canada

881
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: doesn't have a colonial history, you know, like we don't

882
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: where everything's great, you know, when we start looking at

883
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: like the time in which the rhyme thrown guls is

884
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 2: coming out in a lot of ways. It was like

885
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 2: a big piece of media that was made about this terrible,

886
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 2: terrible system. And yeah, and so I think that a

887
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 2: lot of the violence and stuff that you see in

888
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: the film was really done with the idea of like

889
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 2: trying to convey just how distructive this was. You know,

890
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: was there anything, Caitlyn, I don't know if, like you

891
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 2: had mentioned that you had like a specific timeline for

892
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 2: residential schools. I kind of jumped all over the place.

893
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 4: Oh sure, And I mean I think what you covered

894
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 4: was really helpful context. I have just some kind of

895
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 4: dates scattered through in some additional numbers. For example, like

896
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 4: the sixties scoop was this moment in history that was

897
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 4: actually several decades long where I think an estimated twenty

898
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 4: thousand Indigenous children were taken from their families and placed

899
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 4: into foster care or adoption homes, often with non Indigenous families.

900
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 4: This was happening from like the late fifties into the

901
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 4: nineteen eighties.

902
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I know folks who were scooped and like,

903
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: which is a weird way of putting it, but in

904
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,120
Speaker 2: some cases it was literally like oh, you know, these

905
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 2: social workers arrived at your house and they loaded you

906
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 2: and your siblings in a car and then you never

907
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: saw your siblings again because you were all adopted by

908
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: different families, which you know, the term that we would

909
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 2: use for this now is child.

910
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 1: Trafficking, you know, right absolutely.

911
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: And this was a government this was government mandate that

912
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: this was like government endorsed. So that's another way in which,

913
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: like the Indian Act has been used to sort of

914
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 2: separate children from Indigenous communities, right is through things like

915
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies scoop, which really could be called

916
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 2: like you said, like started in the fifties and went

917
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 2: until the eighties.

918
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

919
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 2: And now another thing too that has become that's gotten

920
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: a lot more attention in recent years and is something

921
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 2: that there's been a lot of call to abolish is

922
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:48,919
Speaker 2: we call them birth alerts. So what can happen, unfortunately,

923
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: is that like social workers can essentially seize a newborn

924
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: from an Indigenous mother if they deem her to be

925
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 2: potentially not a good parent some way. It was a

926
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 2: couple of provinces have abolished these like birth alert systems,

927
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 2: but it's still upheld in Saskatchewan and I believe Alberta

928
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 2: as well here. So, yeah, so if you're an Indigenous woman,

929
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 2: giving birth in a hospital can be very risky because

930
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 2: if you're not, if they're like, oh you're kind of young,

931
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: you know, or are you a single mother? You know,

932
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: like essentially the staff will alert child Services and then

933
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 2: will come and take your child before even like the

934
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 2: drugs have worn off from the birth. You know, Like

935
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: it's a really, really horrific system.

936
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: I also wanted to this was Unfortunately, as I was

937
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: watching this, I was reminded of a news item that

938
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: I read not too long ago in September around just

939
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: issues that would have certainly been affecting in particular forced

940
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,720
Speaker 1: sterilization as well, which when I did a little more research,

941
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: I found out it peaked in the years that this

942
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: movie is covering. It peaked between nineteen sixty six and

943
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six. Over a thousand Indigenous women in Canada

944
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: were forced to be sterilized. And the reason that the

945
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 1: story is relevant right now is because it's still happening.

946
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, you know, it is still happening.

947
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: There's still a lot of pressure in terms of and

948
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 2: you know, in California as well, like there were a

949
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,720
Speaker 2: lot of Indigenous women sterilized in California during the sixties

950
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 2: and seventies. Not that I'm picking on California. It just

951
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 2: happened to know these statistics of California. But yeah, it's

952
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 2: it's still going on today. There's still a lot of pressure,

953
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 2: especially if women like have any sort of even minor

954
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 2: health concerns. Like a lot of times, like there still

955
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 2: is this pressure of like, well you could just you know,

956
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 2: sterilize you. If women are incarcerated, there's also pressure. Yeah,

957
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 2: you know, it disproportionately affects the indigenous community of course

958
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 2: because of colonialism, because there is still huge bias unfortunately

959
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,879
Speaker 2: with regards to with regards to Indigenous people.

960
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

961
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

962
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 2: Oh, I was gonna say in top of the sixties scoop,

963
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 2: if you want to know some other said statistics. I

964
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,839
Speaker 2: feel like we're just like, oh, and this thing that's

965
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 2: also really depressing. So today talking to about the birth

966
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 2: alert system. You know, even though the last residential school

967
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 2: closed here in Canada in the in the nineties and

968
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, which like spoiler alert, we were all alive.

969
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 2: Then wait, how.

970
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 4: Old are you, Jamie?

971
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 2: We were all alive. Then it was like Jamie's young, jamie'

972
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 2: J's scrappy.

973
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 4: I was there, but yeah.

974
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 2: So it's within our lifetimes, you know, and I think

975
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 2: that that's a really important thing to remember. However, a

976
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 2: lot of Indigenous folks will argue that the child deutrour

977
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 2: system has taken over the place of the residential schools

978
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 2: in terms of like taking kids out of communities. You know,

979
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 2: you have the birth alert system. You also just have

980
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 2: like tremendous like scrutiny and surveillance of Indigenous families. And

981
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,720
Speaker 2: you know, what should be shocking and upsetting to people

982
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: is the fact that Indigenous children represent fifty three percent

983
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 2: of the children in foster care in Canada, even though

984
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 2: they only represent seven percent of the youth population in

985
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 2: Quebecutt's estimated that one out of every Indigenous family has

986
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 2: a child that's in foster care with like non Indigenous people,

987
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,839
Speaker 2: and it's endemic. It's just like, you know, if it's

988
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 2: not something you have experienced directly, it's something that like

989
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 2: you know other people who have and when you start

990
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 2: looking at things like that, you know, with regards to

991
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: kids in the child retro system, with regards to you know, suicidality,

992
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 2: with regards to incarceration, you know, with regards to like

993
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 2: drug abuse, like all the things that we sort of

994
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 2: see in this movie. You know, you can draw a

995
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 2: straight line from one to the other and it can't

996
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 2: be an accident. At this point, you know, there's just

997
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 2: so much like paperwork and documentation of how things of

998
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 2: intentionally been done, you know, throughout the years to make

999
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 2: that this is the case. At a certain point in time,

1000
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 2: you have to kind of be like, well, it's not

1001
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 2: even a conspiracy anymore, because.

1002
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: You know it happened documented and to speak to your

1003
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 1: point from earlier, that's just the documentation that still exists.

1004
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 4: Right what what was burned and what was destroyed and.

1005
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 2: What was lost, and you know, and what will not

1006
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 2: come to light, you know, for whatever reason, and on

1007
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 2: and on and on.

1008
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:36,359
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, Let's take a quick break and then we'll come

1009
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 4: back and we'll discuss how this context informs the film.

1010
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 4: Shall we will? And we're back.

1011
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to, if it's cool with everybody's share some

1012
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: quotes from Jeff Barnaby please about the production of this

1013
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 1: movie and just kind of his motivation behind writing it

1014
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: and sort of where he was at. There was an

1015
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: interview he did, I believe around the time this movie

1016
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: was first coming out in festivals with musk Rat magazine,

1017
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: and he was asked by the interviewer, let me get

1018
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: their name, Jamais DaCosta. He was asked why he chose

1019
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 1: to have a female protagonist for this story, so I

1020
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 1: thought relevant to our interests, and here is how he replied.

1021
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: He said, my nation is a matriarchal society and paying

1022
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: respect to that archetype of a woman and the strength

1023
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: that is there, particularly in First Nations women. It's imperative

1024
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: for me, as a First Nation's man who loves his

1025
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: mom and loves his wife and loves his sisters, to

1026
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: pay reverence to their struggle and their strength. I think

1027
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: women are awesome.

1028
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 4: Great ques Wow.

1029
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 1: My mom had me as a T shirt a new

1030
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: merg stright up there with our Robert Eggers quote. Ah, Yes, women,

1031
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: I've heard of them. Jeff Farvey thinks women are awesome.

1032
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: My mom had me at such a young age and

1033
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of support around her, but still

1034
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: managed to make it work. She and my stepmam were

1035
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 1: a big influence, along with my sisters and seeing what

1036
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: they went through at such a young age gave me

1037
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: a measuring stick in terms of the things you can

1038
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: complain about in life. And then he said, kind of

1039
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: going off of that, why he chose the era in

1040
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: residential schools that he chose. I believe this movie is

1041
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: set in the year that he was born, in nineteen

1042
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: seventy six, but he says about that in the same

1043
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: interview quote, I thought, if there was ever a point

1044
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 1: in time that this residential school was going to crumble,

1045
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: it would have been in the seventies. It just made

1046
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: sense to me to have a young Native girl bring

1047
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: this institution of ugliness to its knees. It made sense

1048
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: to me because First Nations women are the language and

1049
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: cultural keepers. They are the epicenter of our matriarchal society.

1050
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 1: I've mostly only known strength come from the women in

1051
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: my life, which isn't to say that men haven't been influential,

1052
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: but the rock steady power that doesn't waiver seems to

1053
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: only come from women, and which I think. He compliments

1054
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: his wife for a long time. It's nice, but I'm

1055
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: not gonna read the whole His wife is really lovely.

1056
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 4: To very nice. Well, I think you see that in

1057
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 4: the film, this this ideology with like, of AILA's peers,

1058
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 4: who seem to be entirely boys, she is the smartest

1059
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 4: and most competent of them, not even of just her peers,

1060
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 4: of all the like adult men around her. She seems

1061
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 4: to have kind of the most awareness of what is

1062
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 4: going around, because like there's scenes where like Sholo and

1063
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 4: Angus are just like, oops, I got robbed by a stripper.

1064
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 4: Dough like t either kind of laughing about it. You know,

1065
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 4: He's like, oh, well, no big deal, We'll just sell

1066
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 4: some bottles. We'll get the money back that way. And

1067
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 4: AILA's like, no, like, do you see what's happening? Do

1068
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,280
Speaker 4: you see what we have to do? And she's by

1069
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 4: far the most competent, and and like why is this

1070
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 4: We talked about sort of having to age prematurely almost

1071
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 4: and having to be wise beyond your years, not in

1072
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 4: a like precocious child tropey way that we you know,

1073
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 4: always take guff with on the podcast, but when you're

1074
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 4: growing up in these horrible, like systematic oppression situations, there's

1075
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 4: no other choice. You can't like, it's that's just it

1076
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 4: hardens you. And it and the fact.

1077
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: That the story of the wolf eating itself that becomes

1078
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 1: so important to how she views herself and how we

1079
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: view her as the audience comes from really the only

1080
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: other woman that we get to know besides her mother

1081
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 1: in the movie of like She I mean, I guess,

1082
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: going off of what Jeff Barnaby said, she was the

1083
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: keeper of that wisdom and passed it along for sure.

1084
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 2: And I was going to say too that just like

1085
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 2: a little bit of like added Magma context. There is

1086
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 2: this huge reverence in our culture for not just women,

1087
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 2: although you know, like Jeff says, you know, it's a

1088
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 2: it's a very matriarchal, matrilineal culture, but also grandmother is

1089
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 2: in particular are really revered, you know, as elders, as

1090
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 2: elder women. There's a lot of stories of gluse Cap

1091
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 2: whose are our sort of how to describe glose Cap.

1092
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 2: He's a trickster figure and he's within traditional storytelling, but

1093
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 2: he's also like a protector figure for the Migma. You know,

1094
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 2: he was sort of helped when Creator made the Magma

1095
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 2: at the beginning, you know, to shape the landscape. So

1096
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 2: he plays this really important role throughout all of our

1097
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 2: traditional stories. And there's a lot of stories about Gluscap

1098
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 2: just like doing stuff with his grandmother. And even the

1099
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 2: word that we use for grandmother, nugumige, comes from what

1100
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 2: goluse Caap calls his grand which is nukumi and jij

1101
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 2: that like adding that ja on the end is like

1102
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 2: how you sort of like talk about like something being

1103
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 2: smaller like we talk about is like a small bug.

1104
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 2: So like our grandmothers are like a small version of

1105
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 2: Gluscap's grandmother, you know. And there's also a lot of

1106
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:23,439
Speaker 2: reverence in Bigma culture for figures like sant Anne. There's

1107
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: a very important UH cathedral called sant Enne de Beaupre

1108
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 2: where a lot of Migma folks do pilgrimages too, because,

1109
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,439
Speaker 2: like I said, we converted very early on, so Christianity

1110
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 2: has gotten very tied into our traditional culture. And St

1111
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 2: Anne in the Bible. I'm now I'm talking at my

1112
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: ass a little bit. I'll be anest.

1113
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 4: I cannot help you because I have never read the Bible.

1114
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 2: But San Anne is is Jesus's grandmother, and so you

1115
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 2: know she she remains very symbolic and very important for

1116
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 2: the Migma in that sense. So the fact that Sarah's

1117
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 2: is really the only female figure that we know in

1118
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 2: the film, I think is like is very emblematic of

1119
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 2: like Migma culture, you know. And I love those scenes

1120
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 2: so much because they're actually speaking Migma. She's making Bannick,

1121
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 2: you know, she's doing like all these things that like

1122
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 2: are so familiar and are so like grounding. And when

1123
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 2: we're in Sarah's house too, you have a sense of

1124
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 2: like Aila doesn't have to be you know, the smartest,

1125
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 2: you know, most sort of like aware person. She can

1126
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 2: just kind of be there and like is comforting.

1127
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: It feels like the closest scenes to where she feels

1128
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: like being a kid, because it's really easy to forget

1129
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: that she's a kid because she has the weight of

1130
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: the world and then some on her shoulders. But yeah,

1131
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,600
Speaker 1: in those scenes with Sarah's and I think like part

1132
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:53,919
Speaker 1: of why it's so devastating to see that Sarah's has

1133
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 1: been murdered is because that's I mean one of the

1134
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: only times you sort of see Aila relax the smallest

1135
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 1: bit and just feel, like you said, comfortable.

1136
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, big time, you know. And it's also interesting because

1137
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 2: what you're saying too about her, I really see it

1138
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 2: as after her mother's death and her father's in prison,

1139
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 2: you know, Aila kind of has to become the adult,

1140
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 2: has to become the parent, you know, and like, you know,

1141
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 2: you both mentioned like that's not rare, unfortunately for kids

1142
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 2: who grow up in circumstances where there is like substance

1143
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 2: abuse or there's like a parent absence for whatever reason,

1144
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 2: you know. And I really refer to I always think

1145
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 2: about like all the men in the film kind of

1146
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 2: as like lost boys in a sense, because there is

1147
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 2: sort of like this waywardness, this sort of sense of

1148
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 2: like there's not like any other kind of like parent

1149
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 2: like child relationships really depicted, and sometimes it can kind

1150
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 2: of like feel like that in circumstances, you know, where

1151
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 2: there is so much intergenerational traumas, like everyone's kind like

1152
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 2: lost and everyone's kind of like separated from each other,

1153
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 2: you know. And so I thought that that was really

1154
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 2: interesting the way that they treated that in film.

1155
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, particularly with AILA's relationship with her father, which I

1156
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 1: thought was the way that that was developed was I

1157
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:20,919
Speaker 1: mean it really emotionally effective, but really interesting too, where

1158
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, every character in this movie is

1159
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 1: so multi dimensional and so complex where it's like I

1160
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 1: can be mad at AILA's dad in one scene and

1161
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: then in the next scene be like, oh, but I

1162
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 1: but I understand where he's coming from. Where I mean

1163
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: when we flash forward, Aila is essentially her uncle's boss.

1164
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: She's clearly the brains behind the operation, and her dad

1165
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 1: is not able to, like I don't know, get emotionally

1166
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 1: where he needs to be, and the anger sort of

1167
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 1: is lashed out towards her when it is his anger

1168
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 1: with the circumstances, not with her. And seeing them navigate

1169
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 1: that relationship and reach i mean, go full circle in

1170
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 1: the best and the worst way by the end was

1171
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 1: just so so so impactful. It was just yeah, so

1172
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:16,960
Speaker 1: beautifully written.

1173
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and sort of you know, you're right and

1174
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 2: sort of like seeing that full There's a lot of

1175
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 2: like circular sort of narratives that happened in the film,

1176
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 2: and I think that that's very intentional in the sense

1177
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 2: of like kind of being caught in systemic racism can

1178
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 2: often feel like you can't escape this vicious circle that

1179
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 2: you're in, right, like any kind of systemic repression. But

1180
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 2: we sort of we opened the movie with her father

1181
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 2: going to prison, we close the movie with her father

1182
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 2: going to prison. You know, the amount of journey that

1183
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 2: he has to do in between, you know, in terms

1184
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 2: of his relationship with Aila is huge. Sorry, my cat's

1185
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 2: eating my notes as I am trying to read them,

1186
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 2: you know, is absolutely huge, you know. And I think

1187
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 2: that exchange at the end of the film where where

1188
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 2: Joseph like just comes out and says, you know, like

1189
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 2: you're still a kid. I want you to be a kid,

1190
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 2: you know. I think that that you finally understand in

1191
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 2: that moment what the stakes are for him, and like

1192
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 2: the fact that like, you know, he understands even though

1193
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 2: he's like, I want you to be a kid, he

1194
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 2: understands that like Dayla can never really be a kid,

1195
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 2: you know, like that's just not on the table. And

1196
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of interesting in terms of like

1197
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 2: looking at this film as like in comparison with like

1198
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 2: other films about like teenage girls, because I think there

1199
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 2: could be an argument made that in some ways Rhymes

1200
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 2: is a coming of age story. Yeah, but it's just like,

1201
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:43,440
Speaker 2: you know, you look at that and then you look

1202
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 2: at something like BookSmart and you're like, oh right. You know,

1203
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 2: you guys talk so much about like how you know,

1204
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 2: oftentimes teen movies take place in a very like narrow

1205
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 2: sort of class oh yeah, and you know, it's sort

1206
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 2: of interesting to see the way that this film steps

1207
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 2: kind of outside of that, you know, to tell this

1208
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 2: story of it's like, well, you know, sometimes coming of

1209
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 2: age means having to be your own parent at.

1210
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 1: You know, absolutely, yeah, I mean, and I feel like

1211
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: I would I would qualify this movie as I wrote

1212
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,559
Speaker 1: down all the different genres I felt like this movie

1213
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:19,680
Speaker 1: touched on at different points, which is another thing that

1214
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 1: I loved about. It was like, there's just there were

1215
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:27,639
Speaker 1: whole sequences that were a heist movie. There were whole

1216
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:30,599
Speaker 1: sequences that were very much drama. There were whole sequences.

1217
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 1: But it feels like a coming of age movie to me. Yeah,

1218
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:38,799
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I mean, maybe not at first glance,

1219
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:41,879
Speaker 1: because it's not an experience that we usually see reflected

1220
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:47,719
Speaker 1: on screen, but we definitely see her come of age and.

1221
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 4: Right, it's like, I mean, it's it's almost like you

1222
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 4: might not necessarily immediately recognize it as a coming of

1223
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 4: age story because.

1224
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:59,080
Speaker 1: There's no party at a rich kid's house, so maybe

1225
01:08:59,120 --> 01:08:59,839
Speaker 1: that's where.

1226
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 4: Right, there's no like oops, I smoked weed for the

1227
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 4: first time and now I'm true, I guess, so dizzy, Yeah,

1228
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:11,599
Speaker 4: at my friend's mansion that I'm hanging out at right.

1229
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:15,800
Speaker 4: It's like but but it's like, yeah, a movie about

1230
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:21,720
Speaker 4: a young Indigenous teen girl in the nineteen seventies in Canada,

1231
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 4: Like that is what coming of age would look like.

1232
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, you know, and even I think that, like,

1233
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,639
Speaker 2: you know, there were even things like like I think

1234
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 2: that in my own coming of it that like I

1235
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:39,879
Speaker 2: like resonated with me in terms of the film, you know, like,

1236
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 2: like I said, I didn't grow up in a res

1237
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,720
Speaker 2: but I did grow up with two parents who had

1238
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 2: serious substance of these issues. And yeah, there were definitely

1239
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:53,439
Speaker 2: things about like ALA's story that resonated so so strongly

1240
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 2: with me, like on this very prefun level. And I

1241
01:09:57,840 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 2: think that's important. I think that's so important in the

1242
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 2: media that like young people can see. You know, I

1243
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 2: was older than Ala when I saw than Ayala would

1244
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 2: have been then when I saw the film. But it's

1245
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 2: a film that like I try and like show young

1246
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:13,719
Speaker 2: people too, because it's important. You know, we're talking about

1247
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 2: like representation. You know, it's important to sort of see like, yes,

1248
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:21,600
Speaker 2: it is this very brutal, violent, I don't think particularly

1249
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 2: optimistic story. But Jeff Barnaby talks a lot about this

1250
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,760
Speaker 2: idea of like wanting to portray the res in, you know,

1251
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:32,840
Speaker 2: in a way that's like true to his experience, you know.

1252
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 2: And I think that, like whether you're Indigenous or not,

1253
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 2: if you're a young person who is living in like

1254
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:41,640
Speaker 2: in a precarious situation where you know that's because you

1255
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:44,120
Speaker 2: know it's always because of things like that you can't control,

1256
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 2: then I think that there's things you're going to relate to.

1257
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:48,120
Speaker 2: In terms of AILA's story.

1258
01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I mean even getting back to the relationship

1259
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:55,720
Speaker 1: with her dad, I mean just navigating a complicated relationship

1260
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 1: with I had a number of people in my family

1261
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 1: who had sense abuse problems, but you love them and

1262
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 1: you feel like it's not especially when you're still a kid,

1263
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 1: you can't really sever that chord. And I don't know,

1264
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 1: it's something you almost never see in teen movies, and

1265
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 1: if you do, it's kind of framed like a joke

1266
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 1: instead of you know, a problem that is something you know,

1267
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 1: very sensitive that needs to be navigated, and another thing

1268
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 1: that kind of I guess I'm curious.

1269
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 7: At what you both felt about this, But I also

1270
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 7: was really affected by the like Aila is so mature

1271
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:41,599
Speaker 7: in ways that I'm like, I currently don't even know if.

1272
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 1: I can be where the amount of grace and understanding

1273
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 1: that she's able to extend to both of her parents consistently,

1274
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:56,280
Speaker 1: even when she is, particularly with her dad, who she's

1275
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 1: often pissed off at the decision she's making, she realized

1276
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:04,759
Speaker 1: as he's lashing out, he's compartmentalizing. He's not able to fully,

1277
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, deal with what's in front of him. But

1278
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 1: she has this very I mean, there's that scene with

1279
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 1: her and her uncle where she says, the jail didn't

1280
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 1: break him, we did, which is her putting more blame

1281
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 1: on her. You know, we know as a viewer she's

1282
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:23,640
Speaker 1: putting a lot of undue blame on herself. But just

1283
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 1: the amount of grace that she extends the people in

1284
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:32,360
Speaker 1: her life because she has such a thorough understanding of

1285
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:35,760
Speaker 1: how circumstantial a lot of their problems are, I thought

1286
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 1: was like really cool, and again, just something you don't

1287
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 1: see that subtlety expressed in this genre really ever.

1288
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 4: Right, And something you mentioned about the there's this kind

1289
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 4: of ongoing discussion throughout the movie about characters kind of

1290
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:57,439
Speaker 4: having to age too rapidly on a maturity and kind

1291
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:00,680
Speaker 4: of emotional and psychological level. There's also this idea of

1292
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:07,719
Speaker 4: characters being broken, and there is that discussion between Ayla

1293
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 4: and Berner talking about Joseph saying, you know, like you

1294
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:14,680
Speaker 4: said Jamie, like Ala thinks that like we broke him,

1295
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:17,160
Speaker 4: and it's not necessarily clear if she means like we

1296
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 4: as the family or we as a community or what exactly.

1297
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:24,599
Speaker 4: But then there's another quick interaction between Aila and Joseph

1298
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 4: at the end when he's saying the whole like you

1299
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:28,600
Speaker 4: you're just a little girl, and she's like, I was

1300
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,600
Speaker 4: never a little girl. And then he says, you know,

1301
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 4: your mother was broken way before what happened, meaning like

1302
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 4: way before the accident that killed her brother, and this

1303
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:41,040
Speaker 4: has nothing to do with you, and that, you know,

1304
01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:45,400
Speaker 4: is a reference to them becoming broken, being survivors of

1305
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:49,320
Speaker 4: this residential school system and of this systemic oppression and

1306
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:55,480
Speaker 4: racism of being you know, forced into reserve life, and

1307
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:57,320
Speaker 4: it's it's just heartbreaking.

1308
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that in some ways I was

1309
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 2: thinking about this, I think a little bit closer this time,

1310
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 2: because I was thinking about the podcast, and I was

1311
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:08,800
Speaker 2: thinking about other films that you've discussed that have like

1312
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:13,880
Speaker 2: teenage female protagonists, and I think that Aila has a

1313
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 2: certain amount of like is portrayed as having a certain

1314
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:19,439
Speaker 2: amount of stoicism and a certain amount of like restraint,

1315
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 2: and a certain amount of like ability to see the

1316
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:24,800
Speaker 2: larger picture that you kind of see crack at the

1317
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:28,400
Speaker 2: end when she's like, you know, right before Popularize, when

1318
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 2: she's crying after she's found Sarah's and she sort of says,

1319
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:34,280
Speaker 2: you know, the the you know, the last rule sort

1320
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 2: of surviving in the Kingdom of the Crow is never

1321
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 2: let your emotional guard down. And I think that sometimes

1322
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 2: for kids who grow up or people just in general

1323
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:47,480
Speaker 2: who grow up in difficult situations, I think that sometimes

1324
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 2: like in order to survive, you need to kind of

1325
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:52,760
Speaker 2: compartmentalize and you need to kind of like have a

1326
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 2: very calm, steady demeanor because there's nothing else in your

1327
01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 2: life that is that way, right, you know, And so

1328
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 2: I think that there's like a certain amount of that

1329
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:04,720
Speaker 2: as well. And there's a certain amount of it too

1330
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 2: that like I kind of question how realistic it is,

1331
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 2: because I mean, I work with teenagers, you know, and like,

1332
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 2: and they're all lovely, and none of them are going

1333
01:15:16,360 --> 01:15:19,959
Speaker 2: to listen to this, but I adore them all, and

1334
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 2: you know, I think that there is a certain amount

1335
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:25,680
Speaker 2: of that that is sort of like creative license. But

1336
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:28,000
Speaker 2: it is really hard to like place ALA's age, and

1337
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:31,800
Speaker 2: it's really hard to like I think that, like a

1338
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:36,000
Speaker 2: more turbulent character wouldn't have worked for the film. So

1339
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:39,599
Speaker 2: I think that, like, also from a storytelling perspective, you know,

1340
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:43,600
Speaker 2: Ala being this rock is is sort of important for

1341
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 2: the narrative, but also sort of perhaps a little bit idealized.

1342
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 1: I see that, Yeah, yeah, and I feel like that

1343
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 1: kind of like undo. I mean that extreme strength and

1344
01:15:56,479 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 1: ability to compartmentalize also cross over into how she remembers

1345
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:08,000
Speaker 1: her mother and how which was kind of another I thought,

1346
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 1: pretty different, incredible approach by Jeff Barnabet that I totally

1347
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 1: agree if she were acting, you know, like your average teenager,

1348
01:16:17,160 --> 01:16:21,599
Speaker 1: may not have been possible. But I mean, it's I forget.

1349
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:24,439
Speaker 1: I think it's her uncle. I think it's Berner. Early

1350
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:27,839
Speaker 1: in the movie, once we flash forward and everything has happened,

1351
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:31,720
Speaker 1: who insults her mother in front of her and she

1352
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:39,559
Speaker 1: immediately because she has I mean, this understanding of the

1353
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:44,120
Speaker 1: circumstance of what happened was so tragic and so terrible,

1354
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:48,800
Speaker 1: and even though it was an accident that involves her mother,

1355
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:51,719
Speaker 1: you know, she's able to kind of see the fuller

1356
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 1: picture and protect her mother's memory.

1357
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:58,360
Speaker 4: Are you talking about the moment where he like he

1358
01:16:58,479 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 4: calls someone an old wit and then she's like, don't

1359
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 4: call her that, and then he's like, sorry, the old lady.

1360
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 4: I thought he was talking about cirus.

1361
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:09,559
Speaker 1: There was he I think he might have been Okay,

1362
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 1: then I misunderstood that.

1363
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:13,439
Speaker 4: Because I think, yeah, he's talking about because she seems

1364
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 4: to be Sarah seems to be sort of it's at

1365
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 4: her house where like they're growing all the marijuana. I

1366
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:22,799
Speaker 4: think that they sell, yeah, and he's so there's certain

1367
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 4: kind of debts to her that they oh because like

1368
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 4: she's supplying stuff and then and then yeah, so and

1369
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:32,679
Speaker 4: then they're like kind of moving the product around. But yeah,

1370
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:34,600
Speaker 4: I think he's talking to her. But even so, I

1371
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:38,519
Speaker 4: think your points still valid, Jamie. Of like, I mean,

1372
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:44,320
Speaker 4: everyone is broken and everyone's having to kind of compartmentalize,

1373
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 4: and it's.

1374
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 1: And that's something that Aila has. I feel like just

1375
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 1: you were touching on this a little bit where in

1376
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 1: a world where there is not a lot that she

1377
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 1: has control over how she views her mother and how

1378
01:17:56,280 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 1: she holds her mother's memory is something that she has

1379
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:00,759
Speaker 1: control over.

1380
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:05,960
Speaker 2: Bad time. And it's interesting too because I was going

1381
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 2: to say, you know, even though Indigenous women have been,

1382
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 2: you know, a target of colonialism and colonial violence through

1383
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:18,280
Speaker 2: the Indian Act and in other ways, you know, Indigenous

1384
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:22,200
Speaker 2: women are also at the forefront of a lot of

1385
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:25,719
Speaker 2: activism that happens and is still happening.

1386
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 3: You know.

1387
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 2: One thing that was going on when this film first

1388
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:32,880
Speaker 2: came out in twenty thirteen was the beginning of Idle

1389
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 2: No More, which is an indigenous rights movement here in

1390
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 2: Canada and in some parts of the United States as well.

1391
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 2: Like It's Standing Rock, there was Idle No More, folks,

1392
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:46,320
Speaker 2: and it was started by four women, three Indigenous and

1393
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 2: one white, ally because they wanted to stand up against

1394
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:51,519
Speaker 2: this bill that the government was introducing that would have

1395
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 2: changed not only a lot of Indigenous rights but also

1396
01:18:55,240 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 2: a lot of environmental protections. So they got together and

1397
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 2: they're like, we're not going to be anymore. And it's

1398
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:04,439
Speaker 2: spread to becoming this national protest movement. It spread to

1399
01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:07,680
Speaker 2: becoming a bigger sort of movement for Indigenous rights here

1400
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 2: in Canada, and that was started, you know, by by

1401
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:13,040
Speaker 2: four women sort of sitting around a table in the

1402
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:17,599
Speaker 2: Prairies like just like deciding, you know, we're done. So

1403
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 2: there is, like I think, in in the character Veila,

1404
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 2: like and understanding some of like Jeff's like motivations for

1405
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:28,360
Speaker 2: wanting to create a character that way, Like I think

1406
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:31,960
Speaker 2: I understand like that he's also paying tribute to women

1407
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:35,679
Speaker 2: like that, you know, who have like held it together

1408
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:39,080
Speaker 2: and who are like trying to make change and who

1409
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 2: are in so many ways taking all this garbage that

1410
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:45,320
Speaker 2: the world puts on them and trying to like make

1411
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:47,439
Speaker 2: change and do things that are different, and also like

1412
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:50,719
Speaker 2: the compassion that it takes to take all that shit

1413
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:54,519
Speaker 2: and and still turn around and be able to say, like,

1414
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:58,400
Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to march and I'm gonna I'm

1415
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,760
Speaker 2: going to write letters and I'm going to do a

1416
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:04,639
Speaker 2: hunger fast. And yeah, I think that that's really really powerful.

1417
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 2: And I think that like so I think that there's

1418
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:10,280
Speaker 2: also like that element too, of like when I say

1419
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 2: that Aila is a little bit of an idealized character,

1420
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:13,960
Speaker 2: like I think that there's also a measure of that

1421
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 2: that's like paying tribute in like a positive way to

1422
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 2: the role that Indigenous women play in politics and in

1423
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 2: their communities.

1424
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:24,080
Speaker 4: Mm hm, for sure.

1425
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:27,080
Speaker 2: There was one thing that just kind of coming off

1426
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 2: of something that I think you mentioned Caitlin about like

1427
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:35,960
Speaker 2: the selling drugs and like being broken, And I wanted

1428
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:37,720
Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about that because I'm so

1429
01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 2: I'm interested in what your first impressions of that were,

1430
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:47,800
Speaker 2: because we're so used to seeing these images of like

1431
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:52,720
Speaker 2: drunk Indians and you know, that's been so prevalent in

1432
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:59,160
Speaker 2: North American cinema since the beginning of North American cinema. Yeah,

1433
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:04,160
Speaker 2: so did you feel at all sort of did you

1434
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:05,920
Speaker 2: feel any kind of way, I guess like sort of

1435
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:07,760
Speaker 2: like seeing those scenes in the beginning.

1436
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 1: Like I honestly, I mean, I my first reaction was,

1437
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I knew that, you know, Jeff Barnaby is

1438
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:17,640
Speaker 1: an Indigenous filmmaker. I'm like, I'm gonna I'm on this

1439
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:20,559
Speaker 1: ride with him he and I knew he was speaking

1440
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 1: to his own community. It did like make me go

1441
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:29,200
Speaker 1: oh no for for a moment, only because I don't know,

1442
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:32,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like we've all seen movies where those stereotypes

1443
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 1: have played out and then you get no context for anything,

1444
01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:42,960
Speaker 1: but this movie felt like it was all context for like,

1445
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 1: what what led to those stereotypes being so widely perpetuated

1446
01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:53,760
Speaker 1: without context entirely? So yeah, I think it gave me

1447
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:57,639
Speaker 1: pause for like a second, but then when it was clear,

1448
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 1: I mean the first frame of the movie is context. Yeah,

1449
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,800
Speaker 1: So I feel like this. And I was reading in

1450
01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:08,280
Speaker 1: just this same interview with him in Muskrat Magazine that

1451
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:13,720
Speaker 1: he had experienced some pushback from other filmmakers in the

1452
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:16,520
Speaker 1: community that were just like, well, you're showing these stereotypes

1453
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 1: and like, you know, like I don't have any interest

1454
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:23,000
Speaker 1: in seeing that portrayed on screen in any way, and

1455
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:26,960
Speaker 1: his response being something you've already referenced just where he

1456
01:22:27,080 --> 01:22:30,760
Speaker 1: was just like, well, I'm showing you my community and

1457
01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:35,240
Speaker 1: reflecting my own experiences growing up, So like, how can

1458
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:38,760
Speaker 1: you tell me what I can? Wow? Like I can't

1459
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:41,000
Speaker 1: reflect my own experience, right.

1460
01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:43,559
Speaker 4: It almost it's like sort of finding a balance of

1461
01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:48,080
Speaker 4: like do I do a disservice to my community by

1462
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:52,639
Speaker 4: ignoring some very real truths of what is taking place,

1463
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 4: or do I I mean, we talked about this a

1464
01:22:56,320 --> 01:23:00,520
Speaker 4: little bit on a recent episode we recorded on the

1465
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 4: Matreon about what we Do in the Shadows, where it

1466
01:23:05,040 --> 01:23:07,960
Speaker 4: was written and directed by both take Away Titi and

1467
01:23:08,040 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 4: Jamaine Clement, who are both Maori, and we were talking

1468
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:14,720
Speaker 4: about how cool it is to see because there's like

1469
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:17,920
Speaker 4: this kind of discussion around there's a lot of pressure

1470
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:23,200
Speaker 4: on filmmakers of any marginalized community to only talk about that.

1471
01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:26,200
Speaker 4: It's like, if you're black, you can only make movies

1472
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:32,000
Speaker 4: about racism, and that's your expertise, so that's what you

1473
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:34,880
Speaker 4: have to make art about. And how it was like

1474
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:39,160
Speaker 4: really cool to see this like really goofy vampire mockumentary

1475
01:23:39,200 --> 01:23:43,000
Speaker 4: that's like so funny and just like so silly made

1476
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:47,400
Speaker 4: by these indigenous Maori filmmakers. But then there's also like

1477
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:51,160
Speaker 4: you know, Taika made Boy, which is about his upbringing

1478
01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:55,280
Speaker 4: in his like Maori community. I mean, and you can

1479
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:58,080
Speaker 4: speak to this as a filmmaker too, Jess, of feeling

1480
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:01,400
Speaker 4: this pressure of like do I make movies that I

1481
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:03,640
Speaker 4: want to make that are fun and stilly if if

1482
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 4: those are the movies I want to make, or do

1483
01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 4: I you know, it's like this kind of ongoing dilemma.

1484
01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:14,080
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. And it's I mean, like Taika also

1485
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:17,519
Speaker 2: directed one of the thor films I think, right, yes.

1486
01:24:17,560 --> 01:24:22,599
Speaker 4: You know those films, tiny little movies that no one's

1487
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:23,280
Speaker 4: ever heard of.

1488
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:28,799
Speaker 2: Right, And it's it's interesting because I think that, like, yeah,

1489
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:33,000
Speaker 2: I feel so acutely where Jeff is coming from, especially

1490
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:35,680
Speaker 2: because you know, we all kind of in terms of

1491
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:37,360
Speaker 2: like filmmaking here in Canada, we all kind of have

1492
01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:41,200
Speaker 2: to navigate the same systems of the same funders. So

1493
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:43,479
Speaker 2: you know, we're fortunate in the sense that, like we

1494
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:46,519
Speaker 2: do have public funding for the arts. You know, I

1495
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:50,519
Speaker 2: wouldn't trade that for anything, but that also means that

1496
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:53,479
Speaker 2: and you know, this is changing a little bit now,

1497
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:55,360
Speaker 2: but you know, I've been doing this for like a

1498
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 2: decade close on, and you know, a lot of the

1499
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:02,599
Speaker 2: funders are not like bipop people. They're not queer people,

1500
01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 2: they're not you know, a lot of the funders are

1501
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:09,479
Speaker 2: still like a very specific type of bureaucrat. So when

1502
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:12,840
Speaker 2: you're talking about like yeah, it can feel sometimes like

1503
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:16,640
Speaker 2: you're just ticking boxes of sort of like Okay, I

1504
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 2: want to make my film, but I want to make

1505
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:22,160
Speaker 2: it this way. And it's like, you know, a funder

1506
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:24,800
Speaker 2: is not necessarily going to be like, well, you know,

1507
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:27,720
Speaker 2: you're an indigenous filmmaker and you just want to make

1508
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 2: like a zombie movie, Like I don't know, you know,

1509
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 2: Like so it's complicated some of the way that we

1510
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:38,679
Speaker 2: have to navigate that I also make work and want

1511
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:40,800
Speaker 2: to continue to make work that is also in that

1512
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:44,519
Speaker 2: genre sort of space. Yeah, it can be really it

1513
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 2: can be really difficult at times, and there is all

1514
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:50,719
Speaker 2: this kind of like pressure sometimes to yeah, like to

1515
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:55,360
Speaker 2: not show certain things because like it always comes back

1516
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:59,559
Speaker 2: to the reality of representation, because you know, this is

1517
01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:02,200
Speaker 2: like blood Quantum. We keep talking about bloo quantum. People

1518
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:03,559
Speaker 2: are just gonna have blood quantum.

1519
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 1: We just have to do blood Quantum for Halloween next year.

1520
01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:10,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I will come back if you want me to, no, please, Yes,

1521
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 2: I waited like four years for that film. Anyway, that's

1522
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:17,080
Speaker 2: another story for another day. But when you're talking about

1523
01:26:17,120 --> 01:26:19,960
Speaker 2: rhymester Ingoules, it's such a singular film. It's a coming

1524
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:22,920
Speaker 2: of age story, it's a heist movie, it's a story

1525
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:25,240
Speaker 2: of revenge, and it's it's taking place in this you know,

1526
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:28,120
Speaker 2: it's a historical piece as well. Like it's such a

1527
01:26:28,160 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 2: particular thing that like when the pressure is on you,

1528
01:26:31,040 --> 01:26:34,120
Speaker 2: it's like you are the one that we are giving

1529
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:37,920
Speaker 2: our small amounts of Canadian money to to make this film.

1530
01:26:38,280 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 2: It's like, not only are you just like the only

1531
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:42,960
Speaker 2: like at that point in time, you know, like one

1532
01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:47,040
Speaker 2: of the most high profile like Migma filmmakers, one of

1533
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:51,360
Speaker 2: only a handful of indigenous filmmakers, right, it's also like

1534
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:55,320
Speaker 2: you know, you you've been awarded this like highly sought

1535
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:59,599
Speaker 2: after like money, you know. So yeah, so there are

1536
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:04,080
Speaker 2: all these weird pressures sometimes and sometimes like as an

1537
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:06,960
Speaker 2: indigenous filmmaker, you can feel like you're battling against like

1538
01:27:07,479 --> 01:27:10,600
Speaker 2: so many different like things that you might have to

1539
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:14,680
Speaker 2: compromise on, you know, like, Okay, not everybody's gonna like

1540
01:27:14,720 --> 01:27:16,800
Speaker 2: then I'm gonna show this in this way. At the

1541
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 2: same time, am I working with a funder who understands

1542
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:24,440
Speaker 2: my nation's culture? You know? Am I just being tokenized?

1543
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:27,920
Speaker 2: Am I like wasting this like tiny little bit of

1544
01:27:28,200 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 2: money but it's the only money we have, you know,

1545
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 2: Like right, So there's all these different things that kind

1546
01:27:33,040 --> 01:27:36,760
Speaker 2: of play into that. But you know, we're starting to

1547
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 2: talk a lot more about narrative sovereignty. Even just the

1548
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 2: idea that it should be indigenous filmmakers making indigenous films

1549
01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:47,880
Speaker 2: is very new, which it shouldn't be, but is a

1550
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:51,200
Speaker 2: very new idea in Canada and the United States. So

1551
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:55,080
Speaker 2: I'm hoping with that that they'll just be more opportunities,

1552
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:57,000
Speaker 2: you know. And if there are more opportunities and there

1553
01:27:57,000 --> 01:28:00,080
Speaker 2: can be more people making films therefore, you know, so

1554
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 2: the one Native person making a film doesn't have to

1555
01:28:02,080 --> 01:28:04,840
Speaker 2: make a film that represents all Native people, you know.

1556
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:06,559
Speaker 2: They can just make the one Native film that they

1557
01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 2: want to make, and then me over here, I can

1558
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:11,200
Speaker 2: make the Native film that I want to make, you know,

1559
01:28:11,360 --> 01:28:14,040
Speaker 2: like exactly, and they don't have to be the same thing,

1560
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:16,640
Speaker 2: and it doesn't have to fit into sort of like

1561
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:20,040
Speaker 2: this very specific expectation, you know, right.

1562
01:28:19,920 --> 01:28:22,160
Speaker 4: And they can have be all different kinds of stories,

1563
01:28:22,160 --> 01:28:24,960
Speaker 4: and they can span all different genres and they it's

1564
01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:27,880
Speaker 4: it's almost as like, well, I'm wondering if, like Jeff

1565
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:30,080
Speaker 4: Barnaby is like, this is my one chance to make

1566
01:28:30,120 --> 01:28:33,920
Speaker 4: a film, I have to just like pack in every genre.

1567
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:34,240
Speaker 3: That I can.

1568
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:34,639
Speaker 2: Yeh.

1569
01:28:34,680 --> 01:28:36,960
Speaker 4: It's not as though the movie is like feels muddled

1570
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:38,680
Speaker 4: or anything like that, but it's like we need to

1571
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:39,960
Speaker 4: get to a place where.

1572
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:43,080
Speaker 1: There just should never be that much pressure on a

1573
01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:48,240
Speaker 1: single filmmaker. Yeah, like it just it doesn't make sense.

1574
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:52,880
Speaker 1: And I'm glad that he spoke to that issue and

1575
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:57,759
Speaker 1: also just said, like, there are indigenous filmmakers that didn't

1576
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 1: like the movie I made, and I disagree with them,

1577
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:02,760
Speaker 1: and it is what it is.

1578
01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:03,800
Speaker 2: It is what it is.

1579
01:29:04,680 --> 01:29:07,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there shouldn't have been that much pressure on

1580
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:11,960
Speaker 1: his movie to represent everybody, but like you were saying,

1581
01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:16,400
Speaker 1: just that there's not enough opportunities and so that pressure

1582
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:17,800
Speaker 1: is created.

1583
01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:20,639
Speaker 2: And it just spirals up from there, and it's I mean,

1584
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:23,400
Speaker 2: I think that like even in a broader sense like

1585
01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:26,280
Speaker 2: of just like any kind of marginalized filmmaker. I mean

1586
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:28,439
Speaker 2: I would even include like female filmmakers in that. Like

1587
01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:31,480
Speaker 2: you know, when you look at somebody like a Catherine Bigelow,

1588
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:33,280
Speaker 2: you know, often people are like, oh, well, she's so

1589
01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:36,439
Speaker 2: exemplary as like a as a female filmmaker because she's

1590
01:29:36,439 --> 01:29:38,519
Speaker 2: making like action films, you know, And it should be

1591
01:29:38,560 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 2: fine for a woman to make an action film. It

1592
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:44,559
Speaker 2: should be fine for an African American filmmaker to make

1593
01:29:44,600 --> 01:29:46,880
Speaker 2: like an experimental video work. It should be fine for

1594
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:50,120
Speaker 2: an indigenous filmmaker to make an alien movie, you know,

1595
01:29:50,280 --> 01:29:54,800
Speaker 2: like it should be fine, because when a cis hit,

1596
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:58,599
Speaker 2: like a white straight you know, filmmaker wants to go

1597
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:03,280
Speaker 2: and make a film about I don't know, let's just

1598
01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:07,639
Speaker 2: pick like like a female coming of age story. Nobody's like, well,

1599
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:10,759
Speaker 2: are you sure, are you sure that you can speak

1600
01:30:10,800 --> 01:30:15,320
Speaker 2: to that? You like, nobody scrutinizes, and I know that,

1601
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:17,720
Speaker 2: like I know, we pick on white straight men an

1602
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:22,439
Speaker 2: awful lot, and they're awful fragile, but it's true, you know,

1603
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 2: Like I I've had conversations with like filmmaking friends, you know,

1604
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:30,000
Speaker 2: people that I absolutely adore, you know, who are male filmmakers,

1605
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 2: and nobody questions them about like why they want to

1606
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:34,760
Speaker 2: make a film that they want to make. They're like, oh,

1607
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:36,000
Speaker 2: I just want to tell this story.

1608
01:30:36,080 --> 01:30:38,479
Speaker 4: It's like, well, are you the person to do it? Though?

1609
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I'm like, well, you know, I want to

1610
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:45,360
Speaker 2: make like a film where it's like two dudes and

1611
01:30:45,439 --> 01:30:49,120
Speaker 2: they travel through time. People are like are you sure though?

1612
01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:51,080
Speaker 2: Are they going to be native dudes? And You're like,

1613
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:54,200
Speaker 2: you can't win, you can't win. And I feel like

1614
01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:57,439
Speaker 2: we're fed this idea of scarcity, this idea of like

1615
01:30:58,360 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 2: it has to be these like select few people who

1616
01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:05,320
Speaker 2: get to have the keys to the Kingdom, and it's

1617
01:31:05,400 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 2: just not it's just not true and like, and so

1618
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:10,400
Speaker 2: any shift away from that that we can have, I

1619
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:12,720
Speaker 2: think is a positive thing. I mean, it's unfortunate, but

1620
01:31:12,760 --> 01:31:15,679
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking so much about like Jeff's work,

1621
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:17,920
Speaker 2: you know, and like seeing his films and things like that,

1622
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:21,200
Speaker 2: and I feel like, as brilliant as this film is,

1623
01:31:21,240 --> 01:31:24,240
Speaker 2: in so many ways, more people have probably seen Pocahontas,

1624
01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:27,800
Speaker 2: more people have probably seen Dances with Wolves, more people

1625
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:30,040
Speaker 2: have probably seen Dead Man. You know, these films that

1626
01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 2: like are super dubious and do a lot of damage

1627
01:31:33,479 --> 01:31:36,360
Speaker 2: in terms of like the representation of Indigenous people. And

1628
01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:38,920
Speaker 2: yet when I'm like, oh, hey, you want to talk

1629
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:42,719
Speaker 2: indigenous cinema, people are sort of like, ah, I don't

1630
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:46,360
Speaker 2: know what that is. Yeah, or they might know, they

1631
01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:49,880
Speaker 2: might know Taika, But that's like it, you know, right,

1632
01:31:50,479 --> 01:31:53,040
Speaker 2: which is better than nothing. But it's not enough.

1633
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:54,800
Speaker 4: Sure, it certainly not enough.

1634
01:31:54,920 --> 01:31:57,760
Speaker 1: Well that I should be more Indigenous filmmakers who are

1635
01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:01,479
Speaker 1: household names, period, period, absolutely period.

1636
01:32:01,880 --> 01:32:04,559
Speaker 4: According to and I don't know exactly how accurate this

1637
01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:08,599
Speaker 4: number is, but according to box Office Mojo dot com

1638
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:14,760
Speaker 4: ever heard of it, this movie. I do consult it

1639
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:15,160
Speaker 4: a lot.

1640
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:17,200
Speaker 2: Mojo just makes me think of Austin Powers.

1641
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:19,639
Speaker 4: I know, I'm just like com paint.

1642
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:22,760
Speaker 1: That makes me be a bombshell and that makes me

1643
01:32:22,840 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: want to die.

1644
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:28,160
Speaker 4: Oh gosh. But this movie earned at the box office

1645
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:34,280
Speaker 4: basically fifteen hundred dollars because of its very limited distribution

1646
01:32:34,479 --> 01:32:37,800
Speaker 4: and exhibitions. So yeah, I mean, I think that's why

1647
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:39,479
Speaker 4: a lot of people haven't seen this movie. A lot

1648
01:32:39,479 --> 01:32:42,360
Speaker 4: of people haven't heard of this movie. Admittedly, we were

1649
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:45,920
Speaker 4: not familiar with it until quite recently, Jamie and I,

1650
01:32:46,040 --> 01:32:50,599
Speaker 4: so it's just a matter of their and I don't

1651
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:54,559
Speaker 4: even know exactly how to fix this of like getting

1652
01:32:54,680 --> 01:32:56,960
Speaker 4: the word out there. I mean, hopefully this episode of

1653
01:32:57,000 --> 01:33:00,840
Speaker 4: this podcast encourages people to watch this movie. It's it's accessible.

1654
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:05,400
Speaker 4: I watched it on develop on Hoopla and like Canopy,

1655
01:33:05,560 --> 01:33:08,000
Speaker 4: which is free if you have a library.

1656
01:33:07,560 --> 01:33:10,080
Speaker 1: Card, you can rent it anywhere and rent it if

1657
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:12,640
Speaker 1: you want to make some money back. Yes, yeah, I

1658
01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:15,559
Speaker 1: rented it on YouTube like it was.

1659
01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:20,440
Speaker 2: It's easily accessible, you know, and and increasingly easily accessible.

1660
01:33:20,840 --> 01:33:23,040
Speaker 2: I own a copy of this film because that's the

1661
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:25,840
Speaker 2: only way that I could like keep watching it after

1662
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:29,360
Speaker 2: I saw it, you know, in festival. But yeah, people

1663
01:33:29,360 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 2: can see this movie. It's it's I mean, so I

1664
01:33:32,080 --> 01:33:34,920
Speaker 2: would say that we have to do this, like we

1665
01:33:35,040 --> 01:33:38,720
Speaker 2: have to go old school on this. So this is

1666
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:40,559
Speaker 2: the plan that I've come up with in the last

1667
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:42,360
Speaker 2: like five seconds. And I don't know why I particularly

1668
01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:47,280
Speaker 2: old school, except for so everybody listening to the podcast,

1669
01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:49,200
Speaker 2: you have to watch the movie and you have to

1670
01:33:49,240 --> 01:33:51,960
Speaker 2: tell five friends about the movie, or you'll be haunted

1671
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:56,240
Speaker 2: by an ancient Indian burial ground. That's how we bring

1672
01:33:56,280 --> 01:34:00,360
Speaker 2: it around, invoke the burial ground. All.

1673
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:02,240
Speaker 1: It's a pyramid scheme for good.

1674
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:04,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right.

1675
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:07,000
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. Remember those emails though, right back in

1676
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:09,960
Speaker 4: twenty four hours and send it to five friends or

1677
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:11,519
Speaker 4: else you'll be killed.

1678
01:34:13,040 --> 01:34:16,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like Auntie's always send those.

1679
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:20,320
Speaker 1: Alongs that were the number one perpetrator of the year

1680
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:23,040
Speaker 1: abouts And it was like, I'm your niece, Why are

1681
01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:25,400
Speaker 1: you sending me this email thing? I'm going to be murdered?

1682
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:29,160
Speaker 1: Like I don't know twenty five people. I'm seven, Like.

1683
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:32,559
Speaker 4: I'm a test.

1684
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:36,400
Speaker 2: It's like I think sometimes like it's just like yeah,

1685
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:40,200
Speaker 2: I sort of miss stuff like that sometimes because it's weird.

1686
01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 2: Like it's sort of like it's paranormal in a weird way,

1687
01:34:43,439 --> 01:34:46,040
Speaker 2: but like, yeah, Auntie's being like, you gotta pass this

1688
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:48,400
Speaker 2: one on and like all your wishes will come true.

1689
01:34:48,479 --> 01:34:51,120
Speaker 4: You're like, right, your crush will fall in love with

1690
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:55,000
Speaker 4: you if you send this, but if you don't, you'll die.

1691
01:34:55,360 --> 01:34:59,719
Speaker 1: You'll be murdered tonight, do you hear? Okay, Annie?

1692
01:34:59,760 --> 01:34:59,920
Speaker 4: Did?

1693
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:03,280
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the Ala tests?

1694
01:35:03,439 --> 01:35:03,599
Speaker 3: Oh?

1695
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:05,080
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, really quickly.

1696
01:35:05,400 --> 01:35:07,280
Speaker 2: And I wanted to talk to about Ala being a

1697
01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:09,200
Speaker 2: two spirit character, but we can do that after.

1698
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:15,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, so the Ala Test. We obviously talked

1699
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:19,960
Speaker 1: with the creator of the Ala Test, but the ale

1700
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:23,439
Speaker 1: test just as a reminder to all of our listeners.

1701
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:25,559
Speaker 1: We discussed it on the Frozen two episodes. But the

1702
01:35:25,560 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 1: Ala Test was inspired by the Bechdel Test and Ali

1703
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:32,640
Speaker 1: wrote it and named it after Aila, from rhymes for

1704
01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:36,720
Speaker 1: young guls. The Ala Test asks three questions about a

1705
01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:40,840
Speaker 1: film's character. Is she an indigenous or Aboriginal woman who

1706
01:35:40,920 --> 01:35:44,000
Speaker 1: is the main character, She cannot fall in love with

1707
01:35:44,000 --> 01:35:46,800
Speaker 1: a white man, and third, does not end up raped

1708
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:51,760
Speaker 1: or murdered at any point in the story. So obviously

1709
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:55,120
Speaker 1: this movie passes the Alea Test or wouldn't be called that,

1710
01:35:57,240 --> 01:35:59,880
Speaker 1: but for all media. The al test, like the beck,

1711
01:36:00,360 --> 01:36:04,280
Speaker 1: can be applied to any kind of narrative media. And

1712
01:36:04,320 --> 01:36:06,160
Speaker 1: you can find the full list and all the updates

1713
01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:10,880
Speaker 1: that the dash Ala dash test dot tumblr dot com.

1714
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:15,000
Speaker 4: And try and follow Ellie on Twitter. She's at Ali

1715
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:18,920
Speaker 4: Noddy nahd ees how you spell her last name?

1716
01:36:19,080 --> 01:36:21,680
Speaker 1: So listen to the Frozen two episode you know what

1717
01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:23,760
Speaker 1: to do and then tell five people.

1718
01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 4: And then tell five people. Is there anything else anyone

1719
01:36:28,120 --> 01:36:31,040
Speaker 4: wants to talk about regarding I.

1720
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:36,560
Speaker 2: Mean, I still have pages and pages of terrible, sad statistics,

1721
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:39,880
Speaker 2: but we don't have to get into those. I did

1722
01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:41,800
Speaker 2: want to just add that one of the things that

1723
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:46,599
Speaker 2: I've come to appreciate about Aila is that I think that,

1724
01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:48,800
Speaker 2: whether it's intentional or not, I think she can be

1725
01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:51,400
Speaker 2: read as a queer character. And a lot of that

1726
01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:56,000
Speaker 2: has to do with some interpretations of too spirit, which

1727
01:36:56,040 --> 01:36:59,040
Speaker 2: is a Pandigenous term that was adopted in the early

1728
01:36:59,120 --> 01:37:05,280
Speaker 2: nineties to describe LGBTQ plus indigenous folks. One of the

1729
01:37:05,320 --> 01:37:09,760
Speaker 2: interpretations of too spirit is coming out of sort of

1730
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 2: like in a Jibwei perspective, is that like you have

1731
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:17,120
Speaker 2: male and female energy and they're balanced. Another interpretation of it,

1732
01:37:17,160 --> 01:37:19,960
Speaker 2: coming more sort of from like Eastern Woodlands or like

1733
01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:23,559
Speaker 2: more sort of like Migma and Showny traditions, is that

1734
01:37:23,600 --> 01:37:26,280
Speaker 2: you walk between worlds and that's what it means to

1735
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:28,439
Speaker 2: be too spirit And so you see that a lot

1736
01:37:28,439 --> 01:37:31,479
Speaker 2: in this film, where Ala sort of doesn't have like

1737
01:37:32,800 --> 01:37:35,840
Speaker 2: strict boundaries in terms of like like the visions that

1738
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:39,120
Speaker 2: she's having of her mom and you know, the dreams

1739
01:37:39,120 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 2: that she's having, and also you know she sees Tyler

1740
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:46,439
Speaker 2: at one brother. You know, she's sort of having these

1741
01:37:46,479 --> 01:37:50,800
Speaker 2: these moments where you know, worlds are not Yeah, she's

1742
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:54,880
Speaker 2: passing sort of between worlds. She's also shape shifting, which

1743
01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 2: is also a part of some of the conversations around

1744
01:37:59,240 --> 01:38:04,200
Speaker 2: queer identity. Is from a traditional perspective. So she goes

1745
01:38:04,200 --> 01:38:08,880
Speaker 2: from having long braids to having very short hair. She's

1746
01:38:08,880 --> 01:38:11,719
Speaker 2: wearing costumes. At one point she has like that which's

1747
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:14,519
Speaker 2: face like on the back of her head. Yes, yeah,

1748
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:17,280
Speaker 2: which is like also a very interesting sort of like

1749
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:19,840
Speaker 2: duality in a sense.

1750
01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:20,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1751
01:38:20,439 --> 01:38:24,320
Speaker 2: So, as I've grown with this movie, and as I

1752
01:38:25,040 --> 01:38:27,679
Speaker 2: you know, continue to watch it and continue to grow

1753
01:38:27,720 --> 01:38:29,920
Speaker 2: in terms of too, like my my own identity as

1754
01:38:29,960 --> 01:38:34,599
Speaker 2: like a queer trans indigenous person. I like understand her

1755
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:37,000
Speaker 2: better now as also an indigenous character.

1756
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:38,679
Speaker 1: That's so cool.

1757
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:42,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's like, it's interesting, like it's it's

1758
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 2: something that like I don't think I'll have to ask

1759
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:49,879
Speaker 2: Jeff about but I don't think it was ever intentional

1760
01:38:49,920 --> 01:38:52,640
Speaker 2: because it's never mentioned in anything, right, But yeah, it

1761
01:38:52,760 --> 01:38:55,960
Speaker 2: sort of fits really interestingly in that way with a

1762
01:38:55,960 --> 01:38:57,040
Speaker 2: lot of traditional beliefs.

1763
01:38:58,479 --> 01:39:00,840
Speaker 1: I love growing with movies. That's the best.

1764
01:39:01,240 --> 01:39:04,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, There's so many things that don't hold up anymore,

1765
01:39:05,439 --> 01:39:08,000
Speaker 2: So it's really nice when you can like watch something

1766
01:39:08,040 --> 01:39:14,240
Speaker 2: that's so cherished and you're like, oh.

1767
01:39:12,600 --> 01:39:13,760
Speaker 1: You won't betray me.

1768
01:39:14,280 --> 01:39:20,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could still love you. Something interesting too to

1769
01:39:20,360 --> 01:39:23,519
Speaker 2: think about in the context of this film is the

1770
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:28,639
Speaker 2: idea of unsettling. So we talk about unsettling in terms

1771
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:31,439
Speaker 2: of like something that disturbs us, right, but we also

1772
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:35,640
Speaker 2: talk about unsettling as the process of decolonizing. You know,

1773
01:39:36,080 --> 01:39:40,160
Speaker 2: you're becoming You're not a settler, you're becoming unsettled. And

1774
01:39:40,200 --> 01:39:43,200
Speaker 2: I think that this film is such an interesting and

1775
01:39:43,280 --> 01:39:46,439
Speaker 2: interesting representation of that of sort of like Jeff Barnaby's

1776
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:49,519
Speaker 2: leaning into all this very spooky imagery and all this

1777
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:53,640
Speaker 2: very like you know, very graphic imagery even you know,

1778
01:39:53,760 --> 01:39:56,800
Speaker 2: like you really do see Popper get his head blown off,

1779
01:39:56,840 --> 01:39:58,320
Speaker 2: like there's a big check of his head missing.

1780
01:39:58,520 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1781
01:39:59,080 --> 01:40:01,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's this so sort of like this desire

1782
01:40:01,920 --> 01:40:06,160
Speaker 2: to disturb and kind of like upset, but also that

1783
01:40:06,160 --> 01:40:10,920
Speaker 2: that's a path to kind of like interrupt and get

1784
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:13,120
Speaker 2: some movement in what can be of sometimes a very

1785
01:40:13,160 --> 01:40:18,240
Speaker 2: stagnant conversation with regards to Canadian history and indigenous history

1786
01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:20,759
Speaker 2: and in the country. So it's like, it's it's interesting

1787
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:23,240
Speaker 2: that that exists in this film in that way, and

1788
01:40:23,280 --> 01:40:25,559
Speaker 2: there's also a conversation to have around the idea of

1789
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:30,080
Speaker 2: like revenge or reconciliation. You know, I think that, you know,

1790
01:40:30,120 --> 01:40:32,360
Speaker 2: Indigenous people aren't a monolith. There's always going to be

1791
01:40:32,360 --> 01:40:35,000
Speaker 2: people who you know, like we were talking about earlier,

1792
01:40:35,360 --> 01:40:37,680
Speaker 2: aren't gonna like, you know, the type of films that

1793
01:40:37,720 --> 01:40:41,320
Speaker 2: Jeff Barnaby is making, and there's gonna be you know,

1794
01:40:41,439 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 2: people who do like them that don't like other types

1795
01:40:43,439 --> 01:40:45,760
Speaker 2: of films. And then like there's gonna be certain types

1796
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:48,080
Speaker 2: of discourse that like certain Indigenous people are going to

1797
01:40:48,240 --> 01:40:50,200
Speaker 2: really support, and there's gonna be other ones that they

1798
01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:53,320
Speaker 2: don't agree with, you know, but it's very interesting. This

1799
01:40:53,400 --> 01:40:57,479
Speaker 2: conversation is sort of about like revenge versus reconciliation, because

1800
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 2: in an interesting way, we can own, we really decide

1801
01:41:00,920 --> 01:41:04,280
Speaker 2: what we ourselves as individuals are going to do. And

1802
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:06,960
Speaker 2: because of that, Yeah, there's so many questions that kind

1803
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:10,800
Speaker 2: of exist out there about like whether that is even

1804
01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:14,679
Speaker 2: like meaningful, you know, if it's just like an individual

1805
01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:17,120
Speaker 2: sort of thing. But I don't know. I am a

1806
01:41:17,120 --> 01:41:20,919
Speaker 2: big believer in that, Like, our individual actions are important.

1807
01:41:21,200 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 2: So whether we go to the revenge side of things

1808
01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:26,000
Speaker 2: or the reconciliation side of things, it's just that we

1809
01:41:26,040 --> 01:41:29,759
Speaker 2: make that choice, you know, alternately in the end. Yeah,

1810
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:33,920
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of kind of all I decide. Yeah, Oh,

1811
01:41:34,280 --> 01:41:36,400
Speaker 2: I do have recommendations.

1812
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:37,599
Speaker 4: Please, yes, please, So if.

1813
01:41:37,479 --> 01:41:40,840
Speaker 2: People are interested, and I'll talk to you guys more

1814
01:41:40,840 --> 01:41:43,599
Speaker 2: about this off mic. But if people are interested in

1815
01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:48,479
Speaker 2: learning more about indigenous issues, if like this episode is

1816
01:41:48,520 --> 01:41:50,920
Speaker 2: like catching you totally off guard and you're like, I've

1817
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:56,719
Speaker 2: never heard of Indians before in my life, Well, welcome

1818
01:41:56,760 --> 01:42:00,559
Speaker 2: to twenty twenty. I don't know where you're been living,

1819
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:04,960
Speaker 2: but congratulations, I guess, but I would say that learning

1820
01:42:05,000 --> 01:42:08,799
Speaker 2: about indigenous issues isn't as difficult as we might think.

1821
01:42:09,360 --> 01:42:11,720
Speaker 2: So much of our school system, you know, has been

1822
01:42:11,720 --> 01:42:15,320
Speaker 2: set up in a way that maintains weight supremacy. So

1823
01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:17,000
Speaker 2: we have to do a lot of the work ourselves,

1824
01:42:17,080 --> 01:42:19,080
Speaker 2: and that can be intimidating, especially if you don't know

1825
01:42:19,080 --> 01:42:24,639
Speaker 2: where to start. For both, you know, Caitlin and you Jamie,

1826
01:42:24,680 --> 01:42:26,639
Speaker 2: like I feel like, you know, the process of learning

1827
01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:29,200
Speaker 2: about residential schools this past week, even though it's important,

1828
01:42:29,920 --> 01:42:31,880
Speaker 2: like history to learn about, I imagine it was also

1829
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:34,479
Speaker 2: very very taxing because it is very taxing because it

1830
01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:39,280
Speaker 2: should be. It's genocide. Yeah, you know, it's not a

1831
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:41,439
Speaker 2: fun thing to learn about. It's not a fun thing

1832
01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:43,120
Speaker 2: to discuss, but it is a necessary thing for us

1833
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:45,960
Speaker 2: to learn about because we have to stop it. It's

1834
01:42:46,000 --> 01:42:49,559
Speaker 2: actively still happening and we have to, you know, make

1835
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:52,760
Speaker 2: that decision, that personal decision whether we are are going

1836
01:42:52,800 --> 01:42:55,439
Speaker 2: to be with it or against it in a sense.

1837
01:42:56,000 --> 01:42:58,759
Speaker 2: So with all that in mind, there are a ton

1838
01:42:58,840 --> 01:43:01,360
Speaker 2: of resources out there that exists for folks who are

1839
01:43:01,360 --> 01:43:05,000
Speaker 2: interested in learning that are really easy to access free

1840
01:43:05,360 --> 01:43:10,840
Speaker 2: even you know, and I will put together some of

1841
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:13,840
Speaker 2: those maybe we can time it so that like we'll

1842
01:43:13,840 --> 01:43:16,000
Speaker 2: put like put a bunch together for like the release

1843
01:43:16,040 --> 01:43:16,679
Speaker 2: of this episode.

1844
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we can release a resource guide the whole

1845
01:43:18,920 --> 01:43:19,519
Speaker 1: thing for.

1846
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:21,240
Speaker 2: Sure, because there's like there's so much stuff out there,

1847
01:43:21,320 --> 01:43:24,160
Speaker 2: even like really little things like there's an app that

1848
01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:26,120
Speaker 2: you can download for free called native land dot Ca.

1849
01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:31,400
Speaker 2: It's a world map and like you essentially use it

1850
01:43:31,439 --> 01:43:33,360
Speaker 2: like Google Maps. You look up different locations and it

1851
01:43:33,400 --> 01:43:36,519
Speaker 2: tells you whose traditional territory you're living on. And just

1852
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:38,959
Speaker 2: even like little gestures like that are really really important

1853
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:42,840
Speaker 2: because there needs to be that recognition. There needs to

1854
01:43:42,880 --> 01:43:45,360
Speaker 2: be that starting point. You know. I think that a

1855
01:43:45,360 --> 01:43:47,400
Speaker 2: lot of us feel very attached to the places that

1856
01:43:47,400 --> 01:43:49,960
Speaker 2: we grew up in different ways, you know, whether we

1857
01:43:50,000 --> 01:43:52,120
Speaker 2: spent physically long periods of time there or whether it's

1858
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:55,439
Speaker 2: a sentimental sort of attachment. And just being able to

1859
01:43:55,479 --> 01:43:58,800
Speaker 2: recognize that it's like Okay, that's Migmap territory, or that's

1860
01:43:58,880 --> 01:44:02,320
Speaker 2: Le Nape territory, or that's Osage territory, that's you know,

1861
01:44:02,680 --> 01:44:06,519
Speaker 2: Soue territory. Then even just understanding that all of a

1862
01:44:06,560 --> 01:44:10,160
Speaker 2: sudden can be such an opening of a door, because

1863
01:44:10,200 --> 01:44:13,439
Speaker 2: then it's like, oh, when you hear about like protests

1864
01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:17,000
Speaker 2: happening at Standing Rock. It's not like, oh, those are nameless,

1865
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 2: faceless like Indigenous people protesting. We're not sure what it's like. Oh,

1866
01:44:22,160 --> 01:44:26,639
Speaker 2: I get it. Those are like the Coda and Lakota Sue.

1867
01:44:27,520 --> 01:44:29,519
Speaker 2: You know, I grew up on Sue territory. Like all

1868
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:31,639
Speaker 2: of a sudden, you have a much more personal tie

1869
01:44:31,680 --> 01:44:34,680
Speaker 2: to that. There's also tons and tons and tons of

1870
01:44:34,720 --> 01:44:38,400
Speaker 2: Indigenous activists out there, people like Pam Palmitter who are

1871
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:40,360
Speaker 2: doing great work, and all their stuff is like on

1872
01:44:40,439 --> 01:44:43,840
Speaker 2: YouTube and they're active on social media. So there's like,

1873
01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:47,200
Speaker 2: so there is hope, there's hope you can learn about

1874
01:44:47,240 --> 01:44:51,280
Speaker 2: these things. It might be uncomfortable, as any kind of unlearning,

1875
01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:55,000
Speaker 2: unsettling process is, but I would really encourage people to

1876
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:57,559
Speaker 2: do that work because you know, we've seen with this

1877
01:44:57,600 --> 01:45:02,040
Speaker 2: past year we cannot continue to live is black, Indigenous

1878
01:45:02,040 --> 01:45:05,880
Speaker 2: and people of color like we carry this tremendous weight

1879
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:09,320
Speaker 2: all the time of this violence of this system. You know,

1880
01:45:10,280 --> 01:45:15,519
Speaker 2: even though I'm not currently in Nova Scotia, I am

1881
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:18,280
Speaker 2: connected to the MIGMN Nova Scotia right now who are

1882
01:45:18,280 --> 01:45:21,680
Speaker 2: fighting for their treaty rights. You know, I am as

1883
01:45:21,680 --> 01:45:24,320
Speaker 2: an Indigenous person, I am connected to the struggles of

1884
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:26,360
Speaker 2: other indigenous people. I'm connected to the struggles of black

1885
01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:29,519
Speaker 2: people because it's all part of the same system, you know,

1886
01:45:30,280 --> 01:45:31,760
Speaker 2: And that's why you care, and that's why you have

1887
01:45:31,800 --> 01:45:34,080
Speaker 2: to be mobilized, and that's why you have to educate yourself,

1888
01:45:34,080 --> 01:45:37,360
Speaker 2: and that's why you have to speak out and try

1889
01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:38,160
Speaker 2: and do better.

1890
01:45:38,280 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 3: You know.

1891
01:45:39,240 --> 01:45:42,160
Speaker 2: My grandmother, who was migmn is like was like my

1892
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 2: anchor for my mag man has for a really long

1893
01:45:44,040 --> 01:45:47,880
Speaker 2: time passed away a couple of years ago, and her

1894
01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:52,960
Speaker 2: dying words were, I love you all. And love is

1895
01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:56,240
Speaker 2: such an important value within Migma culture that like I

1896
01:45:56,320 --> 01:45:59,400
Speaker 2: love you all is not just talking about I love

1897
01:45:59,439 --> 01:46:01,120
Speaker 2: you all as in like the people who are physically

1898
01:46:01,160 --> 01:46:03,519
Speaker 2: in the room there, but like love is something that

1899
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:07,120
Speaker 2: influences all of our actions. You know. We have a

1900
01:46:08,479 --> 01:46:12,000
Speaker 2: lot of intention and a lot of thought that goes

1901
01:46:12,040 --> 01:46:14,599
Speaker 2: towards like how we are in the world in terms

1902
01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:18,320
Speaker 2: of like how we relate to everything, you know, and

1903
01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:21,960
Speaker 2: so yeah, like starting to educate yourself is like starting

1904
01:46:22,439 --> 01:46:25,880
Speaker 2: to take responsibility as like part of that interconnectedness.

1905
01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:31,160
Speaker 8: Yes, it's like a big taint, no no, no, I

1906
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:34,880
Speaker 8: think as a lot of us who are, you know,

1907
01:46:34,960 --> 01:46:38,320
Speaker 8: on a pretty steep learning curve honestly, because they're I mean,

1908
01:46:38,360 --> 01:46:38,719
Speaker 8: like we.

1909
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:42,200
Speaker 1: Were saying, there's just so much of this. I mean,

1910
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:44,840
Speaker 1: this is just things I didn't learn in school. I

1911
01:46:44,840 --> 01:46:47,439
Speaker 1: feel like you hit the same three points in at

1912
01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:51,479
Speaker 1: least American public schools. And that's kind of it. And

1913
01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:55,600
Speaker 1: it's like the information is accessible, it's just making the

1914
01:46:55,640 --> 01:47:00,200
Speaker 1: commitment to do it like it. That is all it is.

1915
01:47:00,280 --> 01:47:05,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was going to say, there's this fantastic

1916
01:47:05,200 --> 01:47:07,559
Speaker 2: film that I just got to see it at the

1917
01:47:07,600 --> 01:47:11,280
Speaker 2: Toronto International Film Festival, but we'll hopefully get why release

1918
01:47:11,760 --> 01:47:14,160
Speaker 2: soon and everybody can check it out. It's a documentary

1919
01:47:14,600 --> 01:47:18,799
Speaker 2: based on Thomas King's book The Inconvenient Indian, which everybody

1920
01:47:18,800 --> 01:47:22,040
Speaker 2: should read. But there's this fabulous line in the film

1921
01:47:22,080 --> 01:47:27,080
Speaker 2: at the end that is I think, sort of very emblematic,

1922
01:47:27,160 --> 01:47:31,280
Speaker 2: kind of about this whole conversation, you know, And it's essentially,

1923
01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:36,040
Speaker 2: once you know this story, you can't unknow it. You

1924
01:47:36,160 --> 01:47:37,640
Speaker 2: just have to live with the fact that you know

1925
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:41,040
Speaker 2: it now. So now that you know about residential schools,

1926
01:47:41,680 --> 01:47:44,000
Speaker 2: you can't say, oh, well, I didn't know, you know,

1927
01:47:44,200 --> 01:47:46,920
Speaker 2: and therefore it was allowed to go on there are

1928
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:49,559
Speaker 2: still residential schools open in the United States. By the way,

1929
01:47:50,280 --> 01:47:52,400
Speaker 2: I don't know if you guys found that in your research.

1930
01:47:52,080 --> 01:47:53,400
Speaker 4: But I did.

1931
01:47:54,280 --> 01:47:58,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, so it's like, well, now that you know,

1932
01:47:58,439 --> 01:48:01,519
Speaker 2: you know, and go forward with that and you can

1933
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:02,760
Speaker 2: do it. I believe in you.

1934
01:48:03,160 --> 01:48:08,840
Speaker 4: Thanks Jazz. I didn't write this quote down from a

1935
01:48:08,920 --> 01:48:12,360
Speaker 4: YouTube video A wh I love watching YouTube. I love

1936
01:48:12,439 --> 01:48:18,320
Speaker 4: going to box office Mojo dot com classic Caitlin. Yeah.

1937
01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:23,479
Speaker 4: Senator Murray Sinclair, oh yes, said and again I'm going

1938
01:48:23,520 --> 01:48:26,160
Speaker 4: to paraphrase this, but he was talking about how people

1939
01:48:26,160 --> 01:48:30,639
Speaker 4: have said to him regarding oppression in the residential school system,

1940
01:48:31,120 --> 01:48:32,800
Speaker 4: saying like, you know what that was in the past,

1941
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:35,200
Speaker 4: why can't you just forget it? And his response is

1942
01:48:35,240 --> 01:48:37,720
Speaker 4: always why can't you remember? No?

1943
01:48:37,840 --> 01:48:39,519
Speaker 2: And that's just it. And like I said, you know

1944
01:48:40,160 --> 01:48:43,759
Speaker 2: earlier in our conversation, like these things are still impacting

1945
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:46,200
Speaker 2: us today. I still have friends who, you know, grew

1946
01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:49,040
Speaker 2: up in the foster care system. I still have friends

1947
01:48:49,040 --> 01:48:51,760
Speaker 2: whose parents were in residential school I. You know, this

1948
01:48:51,920 --> 01:48:56,000
Speaker 2: is an ancient history. And that's the most fundamental thing

1949
01:48:56,240 --> 01:48:59,400
Speaker 2: is that, you know, so often we portray indigenous people

1950
01:48:59,400 --> 01:49:02,080
Speaker 2: as being real and being like of the past. And

1951
01:49:02,120 --> 01:49:04,640
Speaker 2: even when I was growing up, I was like, I

1952
01:49:04,680 --> 01:49:07,400
Speaker 2: feel like the most like contact I had with Indigenous

1953
01:49:07,439 --> 01:49:10,479
Speaker 2: culture was like a racist diorama at like a history museum,

1954
01:49:10,640 --> 01:49:14,920
Speaker 2: you know, and we have to remind ourselves that like

1955
01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:22,120
Speaker 2: Indigenous people still exist and colonialism still exists, and ignoring

1956
01:49:22,160 --> 01:49:24,640
Speaker 2: it is what we have been doing and that has

1957
01:49:24,680 --> 01:49:28,599
Speaker 2: not been effective. So yeah, so it is like it

1958
01:49:28,640 --> 01:49:32,720
Speaker 2: is something that like I think people especially here in

1959
01:49:32,720 --> 01:49:36,280
Speaker 2: Canada are very are starting to become a lot more

1960
01:49:36,280 --> 01:49:39,519
Speaker 2: aware of. But it's it feels sometimes like such a

1961
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:43,160
Speaker 2: slow process, you know that, Like I wish everybody could

1962
01:49:43,160 --> 01:49:46,120
Speaker 2: get a copy of Tom King's Inconvenient Indian and a

1963
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:49,439
Speaker 2: copy of like Rhymes for Young Ghouls, and it's like

1964
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:53,040
Speaker 2: this is your homework, like citizen, you know, like this

1965
01:49:53,120 --> 01:49:54,400
Speaker 2: is what you have to do this weekend.

1966
01:49:56,200 --> 01:49:57,599
Speaker 4: Is there anything left to discuss?

1967
01:49:58,280 --> 01:50:03,200
Speaker 1: Well, we know it certainly passes the Ala test because

1968
01:50:03,400 --> 01:50:07,519
Speaker 1: it's ALA, but I believe that kaylin I had this

1969
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:09,280
Speaker 1: movie passing the Bechdel test.

1970
01:50:09,640 --> 01:50:13,639
Speaker 4: Yes, there's a scene at the end where Aila and

1971
01:50:13,800 --> 01:50:18,599
Speaker 4: her she's watching sort of like her own flashback from Afar.

1972
01:50:19,320 --> 01:50:21,800
Speaker 4: Toward the end of the movie where she and her mom,

1973
01:50:21,960 --> 01:50:26,360
Speaker 4: Anna are painting something by firelight, and they're kind of

1974
01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:28,439
Speaker 4: discussing what they're painting and why and.

1975
01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:32,200
Speaker 1: Just weaving right.

1976
01:50:32,280 --> 01:50:36,519
Speaker 4: And then it also passes between Ala in series, I

1977
01:50:36,520 --> 01:50:41,680
Speaker 4: think when she relates the story about the wolf. Yep, yeah,

1978
01:50:41,680 --> 01:50:45,200
Speaker 4: in that whole conversation. So yeah, definite Bechdel Test passing.

1979
01:50:46,600 --> 01:50:51,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like that's another reason that, like, I was

1980
01:50:51,080 --> 01:50:53,040
Speaker 2: so excited to talk about this film because I was, like,

1981
01:50:53,320 --> 01:50:55,280
Speaker 2: I know that it passes the Bechdel test because I

1982
01:50:55,360 --> 01:50:58,360
Speaker 2: was watching it with that intention, you know, seven years ago.

1983
01:50:58,760 --> 01:51:03,040
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, So that's that's awesome. Yeah.

1984
01:51:03,080 --> 01:51:05,400
Speaker 4: And then that's that brings it to our nipple scale,

1985
01:51:05,439 --> 01:51:09,040
Speaker 4: So zero to five nipples based on examining the movie

1986
01:51:09,200 --> 01:51:15,200
Speaker 4: from an intersectional feminist lens, and hmmm, it's gonna I

1987
01:51:15,240 --> 01:51:19,080
Speaker 4: mean it's very high. Yeah, I mean I I feel

1988
01:51:19,080 --> 01:51:22,720
Speaker 4: like it could be a five nipple situation. Yeah, I

1989
01:51:22,760 --> 01:51:24,920
Speaker 4: think so, And I'm interested to hear.

1990
01:51:25,120 --> 01:51:25,240
Speaker 3: Right.

1991
01:51:25,479 --> 01:51:27,519
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm trolling you guys in the video

1992
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:31,639
Speaker 2: and nobody can see it. I mean, it's five nipples

1993
01:51:31,640 --> 01:51:33,880
Speaker 2: for me. But I also feel like I'm a little

1994
01:51:33,880 --> 01:51:37,320
Speaker 2: bit biased because I mean, I just this film has

1995
01:51:37,400 --> 01:51:39,680
Speaker 2: meant so much throughout the years and I love it

1996
01:51:39,720 --> 01:51:42,280
Speaker 2: so much and just you know, have a bad ass

1997
01:51:42,479 --> 01:51:46,000
Speaker 2: MGMA female heroin fuck yeah, like.

1998
01:51:47,320 --> 01:51:50,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I don't really have any like notes for like,

1999
01:51:51,439 --> 01:51:55,120
Speaker 4: there's nothing that like rubbed me wrong or any show.

2000
01:51:55,000 --> 01:51:59,360
Speaker 1: Me a more motivated female protagonist with.

2001
01:51:59,400 --> 01:52:02,559
Speaker 2: More ata like she's running the show, you know.

2002
01:52:03,240 --> 01:52:06,439
Speaker 1: And with higher stakes. I mean this that it's wonderful

2003
01:52:06,479 --> 01:52:11,960
Speaker 1: and again that that phrase narrative sovereignty and having this

2004
01:52:12,160 --> 01:52:17,679
Speaker 1: be an indigenous filmmaker, writing, directing, editing this amazing character.

2005
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:22,240
Speaker 1: Who Yeah, I have no no, it's I think the

2006
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:24,519
Speaker 1: more we talk about it, I do feel like it

2007
01:52:24,600 --> 01:52:28,519
Speaker 1: is very squarely a coming of age film of sorts,

2008
01:52:28,600 --> 01:52:32,120
Speaker 1: just not the tone we're used to in that genre.

2009
01:52:32,200 --> 01:52:35,639
Speaker 1: But it's it's such like you said, just it's such

2010
01:52:35,640 --> 01:52:42,120
Speaker 1: a singular movie, and we are seeing a community that

2011
01:52:42,240 --> 01:52:46,080
Speaker 1: is almost never represented in movies. And on top of that,

2012
01:52:46,120 --> 01:52:49,919
Speaker 1: we're seeing Aila who is not just dealing with systemic

2013
01:52:49,920 --> 01:52:54,400
Speaker 1: oppression as it pertains to being indigenous, she's also experiencing

2014
01:52:54,439 --> 01:52:59,000
Speaker 1: sexism within her own community and navigating that and just

2015
01:52:59,080 --> 01:53:03,720
Speaker 1: navigating all this stuff, and she she makes mistakes. She

2016
01:53:04,240 --> 01:53:07,000
Speaker 1: just yeah, I feel it's it's five nips for me.

2017
01:53:07,200 --> 01:53:11,719
Speaker 4: Mm hmm. The plan where they're like, you know what,

2018
01:53:12,080 --> 01:53:15,880
Speaker 4: we're gonna make shit shower down upon this guy and

2019
01:53:15,920 --> 01:53:19,160
Speaker 4: then st try to steal the money like their plan

2020
01:53:19,280 --> 01:53:20,120
Speaker 4: wasn't maybe like.

2021
01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:25,240
Speaker 1: Danny Ocean could never can never, he could never.

2022
01:53:26,200 --> 01:53:29,479
Speaker 4: Like it's great, and the catharsis of it is great,

2023
01:53:29,479 --> 01:53:32,719
Speaker 4: but I'm just like, like, he's right there, he knows

2024
01:53:32,800 --> 01:53:36,160
Speaker 4: that you're there. Maybe like steal the money first and

2025
01:53:36,200 --> 01:53:40,760
Speaker 4: then like you know, just like teenager it's like teenagers. Yeah,

2026
01:53:40,880 --> 01:53:42,920
Speaker 4: of course they're gonna come up with a bit of

2027
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:44,439
Speaker 4: a hair brain plan and it works.

2028
01:53:45,160 --> 01:53:48,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, and it's so rewarding too, because the ship

2029
01:53:49,080 --> 01:53:50,960
Speaker 2: Like at one point when they're putting the ship like

2030
01:53:51,000 --> 01:53:53,200
Speaker 2: in the van, like getting ready to go to the school,

2031
01:53:53,240 --> 01:53:56,280
Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, everybody contributed, and I can just like

2032
01:53:57,240 --> 01:54:01,240
Speaker 2: I can just picture like everybody abody just been like, oh,

2033
01:54:01,439 --> 01:54:05,880
Speaker 2: oh you need some shit you need like we get that. Yeah,

2034
01:54:06,360 --> 01:54:07,880
Speaker 2: And it's just like the fact that it's like a

2035
01:54:07,920 --> 01:54:10,320
Speaker 2: community effort to like shit on.

2036
01:54:10,280 --> 01:54:14,840
Speaker 1: This opie, the crowdsource this shit. It's love and that

2037
01:54:15,040 --> 01:54:17,519
Speaker 1: sequence we didn't talk about it too much, but that

2038
01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:20,479
Speaker 1: sequence is it's just like another way this movie is

2039
01:54:20,520 --> 01:54:24,360
Speaker 1: so cool where there's I mean understandably so there's so

2040
01:54:24,400 --> 01:54:29,599
Speaker 1: many very very emotionally heavy scenes and plotlines in this movie.

2041
01:54:29,640 --> 01:54:33,240
Speaker 1: And then for this, I mean, it fits very well

2042
01:54:33,280 --> 01:54:35,920
Speaker 1: inside of what the movie is, but it's also this

2043
01:54:36,200 --> 01:54:39,200
Speaker 1: moment of like you're in Ocean's eleven for a second,

2044
01:54:39,240 --> 01:54:42,560
Speaker 1: but if it fits very clearly inside this world, and

2045
01:54:42,640 --> 01:54:47,160
Speaker 1: it's like fun and they win and it's exciting and

2046
01:54:47,200 --> 01:54:50,440
Speaker 1: it's just oh, that sequence is so cool.

2047
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:51,200
Speaker 4: M hmm.

2048
01:54:51,280 --> 01:54:51,640
Speaker 2: Agreed.

2049
01:54:51,840 --> 01:54:53,480
Speaker 4: I mean, and even just like we talked about the

2050
01:54:53,480 --> 01:54:56,720
Speaker 4: little bit of criticism or like some pushback that Jeff

2051
01:54:56,720 --> 01:54:59,440
Speaker 4: Barnaby received, like from his own community, like are you

2052
01:54:59,480 --> 01:55:03,520
Speaker 4: really gonna like show these stereotypes, which again like I don't.

2053
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:07,600
Speaker 4: This is an exploration of what like systemic racism and

2054
01:55:07,600 --> 01:55:11,000
Speaker 4: oppression does to an Indigenous community, does to families, and

2055
01:55:11,080 --> 01:55:14,160
Speaker 4: does to individuals, and like that's this is just an

2056
01:55:14,200 --> 01:55:19,400
Speaker 4: authentic story about this young woman, this teenage girl, and

2057
01:55:19,840 --> 01:55:26,240
Speaker 4: it's just an incredibly crafted and told story. Ask glad

2058
01:55:26,280 --> 01:55:26,800
Speaker 4: you like it.

2059
01:55:27,640 --> 01:55:29,680
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're like, because I think there's also

2060
01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:32,960
Speaker 2: like this nervousness on my part of like I'm like,

2061
01:55:33,040 --> 01:55:37,400
Speaker 2: oh no, what if they don't like it, I'm gonna

2062
01:55:37,440 --> 01:55:40,200
Speaker 2: have to sit on this call and like explain like

2063
01:55:40,560 --> 01:55:42,280
Speaker 2: why it's a brilliant film. But I'm so glad you

2064
01:55:42,320 --> 01:55:44,960
Speaker 2: guys liked it, and and and yeah, and thank you

2065
01:55:45,040 --> 01:55:48,040
Speaker 2: so much for this opportunity and for holding this space

2066
01:55:48,120 --> 01:55:52,880
Speaker 2: for indigenous film and for me and for Aila and yeah,

2067
01:55:53,000 --> 01:55:53,800
Speaker 2: thank you so much.

2068
01:55:54,120 --> 01:56:01,560
Speaker 4: Thank you for being and providing all your insights, information everything.

2069
01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:05,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, extremely grateful and just like stoked

2070
01:56:05,280 --> 01:56:06,400
Speaker 1: that you're on the show.

2071
01:56:06,880 --> 01:56:07,800
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you.

2072
01:56:08,360 --> 01:56:11,880
Speaker 4: And there you have it. That's our re released episode

2073
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:15,440
Speaker 4: on rhymes for Young Grules. You can follow our guest

2074
01:56:15,720 --> 01:56:21,520
Speaker 4: Jess on Instagram at Jess Merwin. You can follow us

2075
01:56:21,640 --> 01:56:27,560
Speaker 4: at Bechdelcast, as well as subscribe to our Patreon aka

2076
01:56:28,160 --> 01:56:29,160
Speaker 4: the Matreon.

2077
01:56:30,160 --> 01:56:32,960
Speaker 1: We love the Matreon. It is where for five dollars

2078
01:56:33,040 --> 01:56:33,640
Speaker 1: a month you can.

2079
01:56:33,560 --> 01:56:37,640
Speaker 5: Get two bonus episodes with just Caitlin and myself on

2080
01:56:37,680 --> 01:56:41,280
Speaker 5: a theme of usually yours and occasionally are choosing if

2081
01:56:41,280 --> 01:56:45,280
Speaker 5: we didn't like what you chose, So it's.

2082
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:47,000
Speaker 1: Always a weird time to join the Matreon. It's a

2083
01:56:47,040 --> 01:56:51,520
Speaker 1: really fun community of people over there. You get us

2084
01:56:51,560 --> 01:56:53,760
Speaker 1: say in the episodes, you get you know, when we

2085
01:56:53,800 --> 01:56:57,000
Speaker 1: go on tour, you get pre tickets, you get discounts,

2086
01:56:57,040 --> 01:56:59,760
Speaker 1: you get bonus merch if you come to our live shows.

2087
01:56:59,800 --> 01:57:03,240
Speaker 1: It's really fun. This upcoming month, we're going to be

2088
01:57:03,280 --> 01:57:07,520
Speaker 1: covering some holiday films you've been asking us to do

2089
01:57:07,680 --> 01:57:09,720
Speaker 1: for years and we're finally doing. We're doing The Family

2090
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:11,960
Speaker 1: Stone and Black Christmas over there, so.

2091
01:57:11,920 --> 01:57:13,200
Speaker 4: True, so meet us over there.

2092
01:57:13,280 --> 01:57:14,520
Speaker 1: The link is in the description.

2093
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:17,800
Speaker 4: It's a great way to spend five dollars. And speaking

2094
01:57:17,840 --> 01:57:21,840
Speaker 4: of spending money or not spending money, the last thing

2095
01:57:21,920 --> 01:57:26,680
Speaker 4: I want to say is I'd like to encourage listeners

2096
01:57:26,800 --> 01:57:30,520
Speaker 4: to participate in the economic blackout that is currently happening.

2097
01:57:30,880 --> 01:57:35,000
Speaker 4: I've seen different date ranges for different versions of this,

2098
01:57:35,280 --> 01:57:38,960
Speaker 4: but more or less between November twenty fifth, so it's

2099
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:44,800
Speaker 4: already started to December. Tewod there's a huge economic blackout

2100
01:57:44,880 --> 01:57:50,440
Speaker 4: where rather than participating in Black Friday and Cyber Monday

2101
01:57:50,480 --> 01:57:55,600
Speaker 4: sales from huge corporations, exercise the power you have as

2102
01:57:55,640 --> 01:58:00,320
Speaker 4: a consumer to withhold your money because that will beak

2103
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:02,880
Speaker 4: volumes if enough people do it.

2104
01:58:03,200 --> 01:58:05,920
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and in addition to as we've discussed in the

2105
01:58:05,920 --> 01:58:11,240
Speaker 1: show before, keeping up with and observing the BDS boycott

2106
01:58:11,760 --> 01:58:16,640
Speaker 1: list as well and rerouting maybe some of that money

2107
01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:20,680
Speaker 1: that you would have been spending at business Corp or

2108
01:58:20,760 --> 01:58:24,280
Speaker 1: wherever the fuck you you spend your money and rerouting

2109
01:58:24,320 --> 01:58:27,320
Speaker 1: at two places like the Native Women's Collective, which we

2110
01:58:27,440 --> 01:58:29,400
Speaker 1: mentioned at the beginning of the episode. You can give

2111
01:58:29,440 --> 01:58:33,240
Speaker 1: to them in the description or you know, in addition,

2112
01:58:34,080 --> 01:58:37,280
Speaker 1: you know, get involved in it or at very least

2113
01:58:37,320 --> 01:58:41,960
Speaker 1: aware of mutual aid efforts in your community. You know,

2114
01:58:42,040 --> 01:58:44,840
Speaker 1: you can obviously, if you're not able to donate your money,

2115
01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:48,720
Speaker 1: you can donate your time. There's just a massive, massive

2116
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:51,920
Speaker 1: need for you and whatever you are able to do,

2117
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:55,680
Speaker 1: whether that's financial, whether that's donating your time, and just

2118
01:58:55,760 --> 01:58:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, get involved in your community because that's the

2119
01:58:59,200 --> 01:59:03,440
Speaker 1: only way that we weather these kinds of horrific times

2120
01:59:03,440 --> 01:59:06,080
Speaker 1: that we find ourselves in. So if you're able to

2121
01:59:06,120 --> 01:59:09,040
Speaker 1: do it, you absolutely should, and it's just you know,

2122
01:59:09,400 --> 01:59:12,200
Speaker 1: a great way to build community and focus on community.

2123
01:59:13,000 --> 01:59:13,640
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

2124
01:59:13,720 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 1: My last plug is listen to We the Unhoused. It's

2125
01:59:18,520 --> 01:59:22,760
Speaker 1: a show I also produce on iHeartRadio that discusses specifically

2126
01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:27,600
Speaker 1: issues that affect the unhouse, told by unhoused people and

2127
01:59:27,760 --> 01:59:28,720
Speaker 1: their advocates.

2128
01:59:29,600 --> 01:59:30,640
Speaker 4: There's a really great.

2129
01:59:30,440 --> 01:59:35,560
Speaker 1: Episode coming out this coming Tuesday that interviews a wonderful

2130
01:59:35,560 --> 01:59:40,760
Speaker 1: filmmaker named Caitlin Crenn who just released a wonderful documentary

2131
01:59:41,200 --> 01:59:46,040
Speaker 1: on PBS about the queer unhoused community in New York.

2132
01:59:46,720 --> 01:59:49,920
Speaker 1: It's a really great movie. It's called Outcast Nation. It's

2133
01:59:49,920 --> 01:59:52,240
Speaker 1: a great interview with her and.

2134
01:59:52,600 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, amazing. That's my It's my little plug with that.

2135
01:59:56,200 --> 02:00:00,760
Speaker 4: Thank you for listening. Be safe, take care of yourself,

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02:00:00,840 --> 02:00:06,960
Speaker 4: and take care of each other. Bye bye.

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Speaker 1: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and

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Speaker 1: produced by Me Jamie Loftus.

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Speaker 4: And me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by

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Speaker 4: Sophie Lichtermann and.

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Speaker 1: Edited by Caitlyn Dorante. Ever heard of them?

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Speaker 4: That's me and our logo and merch and all of

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Speaker 4: our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftis, Ever

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Speaker 4: heard of her? Oh my God?

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Speaker 1: And our theme song, by the way, was composed by

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Speaker 1: Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski Iconic and a

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Speaker 1: special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

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Speaker 4: For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash

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Speaker 4: Bechdel Cast