1
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:10,600
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

2
00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,480
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at

3
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,200
Speaker 1: noon Eastern on Applecarplay and then Roun Auto with the

4
00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,079
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts,

5
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,320
Speaker 1: or watch us live on YouTube.

6
00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,160
Speaker 2: Ballots and Power on Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines in Washington,

7
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,400
Speaker 2: where there's so much talk about the Doge. Kayleie, we

8
00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,320
Speaker 2: all remember when Elon Muskin, the aik Ramaswami came to town.

9
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,600
Speaker 2: This has been a massive conversation and there are a

10
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,320
Speaker 2: lot of questions about, well, how could this become policy.

11
00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,839
Speaker 2: We've asked a lot of those questions, Connecting the dots.

12
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320
Speaker 2: Is it possible to cut two trillion dollars in government spending?

13
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,960
Speaker 2: As Elon Musk had said at one point? The Governor

14
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,720
Speaker 2: of New Hampshire has the answer. He says, the mission

15
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,880
Speaker 2: of the Doge is achievable.

16
00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:56,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

17
00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,840
Speaker 3: Writing a new opinion piece in the Hill today for

18
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,279
Speaker 3: models of efficiency, Musk and Doge should ignore DC and

19
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,160
Speaker 3: look to the States. And I'm pleased to say joining

20
00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,920
Speaker 3: us live here in our Washington, d C studio is

21
00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,640
Speaker 3: the new Hampshire Governor Republican Kristin, you know, is here

22
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,720
Speaker 3: with us on Bloomberg TV and radio. Governor, and nice

23
00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 3: to see you again.

24
00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,040
Speaker 4: Nothing like a governor coming to Washington.

25
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly your favorite town.

26
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,039
Speaker 3: Well, and you don't necessarily speak kindly of Washington in

27
00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,920
Speaker 3: this piece in tern fiscal functioning, My question, I guess is,

28
00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,000
Speaker 3: if we're looking to the states, we're dealing with smaller numbers. Right,

29
00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,039
Speaker 3: State budgets are measured in billions, whereas the US federal

30
00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,120
Speaker 3: budget is measured in trillions, and they want to cut

31
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,400
Speaker 3: two trillion of that? Is that really realistic?

32
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,000
Speaker 5: It's realistic, probably not tomorrow, and you know, structurally they're

33
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,480
Speaker 5: going to have to get into the big things that

34
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 5: nobody wants to talk about, Social Security and medicare. Again,

35
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 5: that is not likely going to happen tomorrow, unfortunately, but

36
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,720
Speaker 5: it has to be dealt with kind of the crux

37
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 5: of this pieces. As a lot of folks and you

38
00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,680
Speaker 5: guys have discussed, in about eight years, one trillion in

39
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,360
Speaker 5: interest payments goes to one point eight trillion, right, just

40
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 5: in interest payments, So Security, Medicare go, and solvent a

41
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 5: lot about the same time. So you're gonna have kind

42
00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,560
Speaker 5: of this perfect storm of financial crisis if Washington does

43
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,880
Speaker 5: what they typically do and wait till the last minute.

44
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,399
Speaker 5: That's not a solution, that's just reacting to the crisis.

45
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,480
Speaker 5: Does is very interesting and this election is very interesting

46
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 5: that it has created a very unique situation where you

47
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,760
Speaker 5: have an outsider in Elon, an engineer obviously very partial

48
00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,280
Speaker 5: to engineers, as I am one myself, so he's not

49
00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,040
Speaker 5: beholden to the establishment. He's all about fixing and big

50
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,919
Speaker 5: challenges and fixing and finding efficiencies in big systems, so

51
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,800
Speaker 5: he's ideal to do it. The key is, you, like

52
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,800
Speaker 5: anything as an engineer, you have to know how the

53
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 5: system works before you can really figure out how to

54
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,800
Speaker 5: tinker with it. Well, there's gonna be some low hanging

55
00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,760
Speaker 5: fruit with potential executive orders, but you're gonna have to

56
00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 5: use political capital, and he actually does. He's an outside

57
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,480
Speaker 5: of Washington that brings political capital with him. When Elon

58
00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,760
Speaker 5: Musk walks in your office and you're a congressman, believe me,

59
00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:53,720
Speaker 5: you're going to listen, not just do whatever he says,

60
00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,800
Speaker 5: but you've got their attention. So if he uses that

61
00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,840
Speaker 5: capital in the right way, and the best part about

62
00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:01,720
Speaker 5: what they've done, which gives me a lot of optimism

63
00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,600
Speaker 5: is they've put a time window on it, right, they

64
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 5: got two years till July of twenty six to get

65
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 5: this stuff done, get it all moving in the right direction.

66
00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,160
Speaker 5: So and because it won't be some long lasting additional

67
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,200
Speaker 5: piece of government. But as I warned in the piece,

68
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 5: a lot of presidents have failed at this attempt. This

69
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,480
Speaker 5: is a highlight, pivotal moment for Trump for his administration.

70
00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 5: They can't blow it. And the last big piece here

71
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,160
Speaker 5: is Washington has to look to the states. Because states,

72
00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,800
Speaker 5: especially Republican states, but really all states, they make tough decisions.

73
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 5: They've found efficiencies. You know, one example I give is

74
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,119
Speaker 5: in Iowa, they went from thirty seven agencies to sixteen.

75
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,560
Speaker 5: Did Kim Reynolds get penalized through that, No, she got champion.

76
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,400
Speaker 5: The voters thanked her for doing it. So what was

77
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,720
Speaker 5: traditionally seen as making tough decisions and getting politically penalized

78
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 5: in the past, if you don't make those tough decisions

79
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,440
Speaker 5: now to Congress, you're going to get penalized. And that's

80
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,600
Speaker 5: what the Speaker has to understand. It's in his political

81
00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 5: interest to do the hard work that no one's been

82
00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:00,720
Speaker 5: able to do before.

83
00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 2: We can nibble around the edges here for a while,

84
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 2: but to your point, long term, a balanced budget amendment

85
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 2: should be reconsidered. There are a couple of them that

86
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,480
Speaker 2: have been proposed. They tend to not get as far

87
00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 2: as you want them to hear. But the question is

88
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,159
Speaker 2: can you do that and make it work without getting

89
00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,200
Speaker 2: to You just talked about it. Social Security and medicare

90
00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 2: That's why this never goes any further.

91
00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 5: So again, those things are going to become insolvent in

92
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 5: very very short term, so at some point they're going

93
00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:30,200
Speaker 5: to need.

94
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 2: To trust this administration to deal with it.

95
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,919
Speaker 5: I trust this administration more than the next one, and

96
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,359
Speaker 5: I don't even know even who the next one is.

97
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 5: And that look, Trump was elected not just on policy.

98
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,800
Speaker 5: He was elected to be a disruptor, to break that

99
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,760
Speaker 5: establishment mold as an outsider, and he's brought outsiders with

100
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:46,720
Speaker 5: him to do it. And he's got a lot of

101
00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,159
Speaker 5: a very significant political mandate and more experience than he

102
00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,480
Speaker 5: did even in the first term. So the wins are

103
00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,760
Speaker 5: in the sales to get it done. My argument on

104
00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,039
Speaker 5: a balanced budgetment, it's so critical. By the way, forty

105
00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,800
Speaker 5: nine states have balanced budget moments. We all live in those.

106
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 5: I could tell you there's no state that's a bigger

107
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,440
Speaker 5: financial mess than California, right, But even they have a

108
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,920
Speaker 5: bounced budget amendment. I mean, they end up taxing their

109
00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,800
Speaker 5: citizens and not handling it very well. But they are

110
00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 5: managed better on a fiscal basis than the federal government,

111
00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,880
Speaker 5: and that should be a warning shot across the Republican's bow.

112
00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,120
Speaker 3: I want to return to something you were saying about

113
00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,039
Speaker 3: Elon Musk, specifically that he might be uniquely suited to

114
00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,480
Speaker 3: this role because of his nature of being a political

115
00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,640
Speaker 3: outsider but still having political capital. He also has just

116
00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,440
Speaker 3: normal capital. His worth went to four hundred billion dollars yesterday.

117
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,120
Speaker 3: Is there not some conflict of interest here you are

118
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,120
Speaker 3: worried about in him? Specifically, who has companies that contract

119
00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 3: with the US government having a say in this?

120
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 5: So surprisingly know and I'll tell you why, because he's

121
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,000
Speaker 5: so rich. I mean four hundred billion, a couple billion

122
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:47,640
Speaker 5: more here or there.

123
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,280
Speaker 4: This isn't a guy that lives.

124
00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,640
Speaker 3: Extravagantly cares about the fate of say SpaceX.

125
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,840
Speaker 5: Of course he does, but that's not doge right. So

126
00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,839
Speaker 5: you can talk about Grant programs and all of this

127
00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,080
Speaker 5: sort of thing. But this place needs a complete structural overhaul.

128
00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,599
Speaker 5: And that's what he's actually really really good at taking

129
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,120
Speaker 5: on giant challenges. People didn't think there was going to

130
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,880
Speaker 5: be a privatization of going to space. He said, no,

131
00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:09,800
Speaker 5: we can do it, and he figured it out. So

132
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,320
Speaker 5: it's not all on him, but he provides the political capital,

133
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,240
Speaker 5: and in a way, because he's so wealthy, he doesn't

134
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,640
Speaker 5: have a direct financial interest in this per se that

135
00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,360
Speaker 5: is appreciable to him at all. Everybody in DC does.

136
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 5: Everybody in DC wants to keep their job. They're all

137
00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,279
Speaker 5: elected official, they are all have a bigger conflict of

138
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,200
Speaker 5: interest to do nothing than to actually listen to someone

139
00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 5: like Elon and the recommendations that come out of this group.

140
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,920
Speaker 4: You got to find efficiencies everywhere. I think you can.

141
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,600
Speaker 5: What they're doing with defense is going to be great.

142
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,000
Speaker 5: Having an audit, I think that's very important. You don't

143
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,599
Speaker 5: have to lose a single gun, bullet or soldier just

144
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,120
Speaker 5: by becoming more efficient, creating more competition within what is

145
00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,320
Speaker 5: kind of a cabal right now of contractors and contracts

146
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,680
Speaker 5: within the Department of Defense. I mean, you could save

147
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 5: one hundred billion there about. I didn't do the details,

148
00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,120
Speaker 5: but there's about sixteen executive orders alone that I counted

149
00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,400
Speaker 5: over ten year, one and a half trillion, just on

150
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,520
Speaker 5: Biden's executive wards, by the way, So there's a lot

151
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 5: of low hanging fruit there. But structurally they're gonna have

152
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,440
Speaker 5: to to take up something more substantive at some point.

153
00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 5: Doesn't mean it all happens tomorrow, and getting too A

154
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,720
Speaker 5: bounce A bounced budget amendment agreement basically says this, we're

155
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,240
Speaker 5: going to go forward in such a way that we

156
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 5: eventually get to a balanced budget. We bring things back

157
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 5: into the into the fold the right way. We make

158
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,640
Speaker 5: that compact with America that says your family has to

159
00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,880
Speaker 5: live by a balanced budget, and so don't we That

160
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 5: in itself will reinstore so much trust that Washington doesn't have.

161
00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,800
Speaker 5: They have it with governors and state legislators and mayors,

162
00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,240
Speaker 5: but they don't have it with Washington. So it's in

163
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:38,720
Speaker 5: their political interests to.

164
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:39,640
Speaker 4: Do the hard work.

165
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:40,120
Speaker 1: Now.

166
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,120
Speaker 5: I think it's gonna take time, of course, But you

167
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,040
Speaker 5: know what I hear, I get a little concern. I

168
00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,120
Speaker 5: hear Republicans say, well, we're gonna cut that program and

169
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 5: that program well, that sounds fine. You want to cut them,

170
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,360
Speaker 5: cut them, I don't care. But that's nipping on the edges.

171
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:53,520
Speaker 4: That's political speak.

172
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,880
Speaker 5: You need real structural of financial structural reform here, and

173
00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,160
Speaker 5: now's the time to do it.

174
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,960
Speaker 2: And this administration wants to advance the Trump tax cuts,

175
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,480
Speaker 2: make them permanent, likely add to the deficit in the process.

176
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 2: Where do you draw the line how much is palatable

177
00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,640
Speaker 2: until the cuts start to kick in.

178
00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,240
Speaker 5: So I think the cuts they have now and continuing

179
00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,440
Speaker 5: them is very, very important because you need a growth

180
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,160
Speaker 5: model here too. And what as you guys I think

181
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,640
Speaker 5: have talked about, there's so much cash being held by

182
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,720
Speaker 5: so many of these large corporations right where it's four

183
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,200
Speaker 5: and fifty billion just being held by Berkshire, Hathaway or

184
00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,240
Speaker 5: whatever it is, right, and then you multiply that with

185
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,160
Speaker 5: all these other large because these companies were holding onto

186
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 5: it because all the inflationary risk that comes with the

187
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,240
Speaker 5: regulation of a bit of the change or not change.

188
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 5: If Kamala were to win of administrations, right, there was

189
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,480
Speaker 5: so much regulatory inflation there. They were holding their cash

190
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,040
Speaker 5: because they didn't know where things were going to go.

191
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,600
Speaker 5: Hopefully with the tax cuts in this administration, private equity

192
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,599
Speaker 5: starts moving a little more, deal flow starts moving a

193
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 5: little more, cash starts being released and.

194
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:55,800
Speaker 4: Really promotes that growth.

195
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,400
Speaker 5: So while we're making some tough cuts, while we're making

196
00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,680
Speaker 5: the tough decisions, block ranting things back to the states.

197
00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,800
Speaker 5: I mean, think about it. Department of Education is the

198
00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,319
Speaker 5: one they talk about all the time. You can get

199
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,640
Speaker 5: rid of ninety percent of that bureaucracy, save tons of money,

200
00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:10,800
Speaker 5: and still block rent the same money back to states

201
00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,000
Speaker 5: and allow states have the efficiency of reinvesting those funds

202
00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,080
Speaker 5: how they see fit. What's good for Massachusetts is different

203
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,679
Speaker 5: than Minnesota, or Nebraska or New Hampshire. So let them decide.

204
00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 5: I can tell you as a governor, when we look

205
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,240
Speaker 5: at all these programs and all this money that comes

206
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,640
Speaker 5: from DC, there are so many strings attached. We have

207
00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,120
Speaker 5: to say no to some of this money sometimes because

208
00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,040
Speaker 5: it's so not in New Hampshire's interest to take the

209
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 5: money because of all the additional attachments to it.

210
00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 4: You block rerant things back.

211
00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,559
Speaker 5: Believe in the States, as you've probably heard me say

212
00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,720
Speaker 5: before them founding fathers, they were wicked smith As we

213
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,520
Speaker 5: say in New Hampshire, they really were Federalism works States

214
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,160
Speaker 5: have done already done a lot of what DOGE is

215
00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,520
Speaker 5: looking to achieve on a smaller level, to be sure,

216
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,560
Speaker 5: but a lot of it is just copy and paste.

217
00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,080
Speaker 5: We've done the hard work. It's not some newfound crazy idea.

218
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,880
Speaker 5: It's actually Washington is the last one at the table

219
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:02,200
Speaker 5: to try to figure this out.

220
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,480
Speaker 3: Well, you obviously are still speaking with us as an

221
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,520
Speaker 3: incumbent governor, but your term is almost done.

222
00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,959
Speaker 5: TikTok, twenty nine days August ticking.

223
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,400
Speaker 3: So of course we're wondering what the future holds for you,

224
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,240
Speaker 3: and I do wonder, given that it does seem the

225
00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,080
Speaker 3: American people delivered this mandate of more efficiency in government,

226
00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,720
Speaker 3: more disruptions, not just with the election of Donald Trump,

227
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,160
Speaker 3: but with the Republican majority in both the House and

228
00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,080
Speaker 3: the Senate. With that kind of Republican leadership mandate, does

229
00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,000
Speaker 3: that make you rethink how much you want to be

230
00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,320
Speaker 3: involved in politics in the next four years or no, twenty.

231
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,120
Speaker 4: Ye maybe long term.

232
00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,200
Speaker 5: I would come back into thinks long is longer. Nothing

233
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:37,719
Speaker 5: I'm thinking about. I can tell you I do want

234
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:39,760
Speaker 5: to stay involved, and that's why I'm going to keep

235
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,560
Speaker 5: writing off eds and maybe do some media and all

236
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,400
Speaker 5: that sort of thing. I left to resume at the

237
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,200
Speaker 5: front desk for y'all. But you know, I'm economically driven,

238
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 5: I'm a business guy. I'm an engineered That's why I'm

239
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 5: so passionate on the dose thing. And again I go

240
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,800
Speaker 5: back to governor, not just myself, but governors all across

241
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,960
Speaker 5: the spectrum have really done a lot of this hard work.

242
00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:57,960
Speaker 5: I think that needs to be championed. We talk too

243
00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 5: much on the national level of just what happens in

244
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,760
Speaker 5: this bub DC, but frankly, the bubble of DC, both

245
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,160
Speaker 5: media and otherwise, is never talks to the real people

246
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,320
Speaker 5: out in the rest of the country. That's why when

247
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,800
Speaker 5: around mid September it was clear to a lot of

248
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,559
Speaker 5: us that Trump was going to win handily, and it

249
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:15,880
Speaker 5: was like, well, how can you say that? How can

250
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:17,880
Speaker 5: you say that? The people that were questioning that were

251
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:19,880
Speaker 5: in New York and Washington, the rest of America was

252
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,720
Speaker 5: going Just talk to your neighbors. You could see it coming,

253
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,160
Speaker 5: you could see where this was all going. So again,

254
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,480
Speaker 5: I like to keep that political itch scratch a more

255
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,880
Speaker 5: of an economics guy and a private equity guy and

256
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 5: a market sky. So I'll stay involved somehow and I'm obviously.

257
00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,240
Speaker 5: I think the first of the nation primary in New

258
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,480
Speaker 5: Hampshire is going to be really big with an open

259
00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,840
Speaker 5: race in just four years, and maybe both parties about yeah, right,

260
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:43,880
Speaker 5: undoubtedly both.

261
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:45,720
Speaker 2: I think you have a new cause. Though, if you

262
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 2: read to the bottom of this op ed about the Doge,

263
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 2: you write, by the way, eliminating daylight savings time big Well,

264
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,440
Speaker 2: let's not forget that. I could see you and Ed

265
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,079
Speaker 2: Markey joining together on this issue. You got to be

266
00:11:58,160 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 2: kidne meed though it's dark till noon in New Hampshire.

267
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,079
Speaker 2: Know what, I'm fraid to New England that you're you're

268
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:02,720
Speaker 2: ready to do that?

269
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,240
Speaker 4: Does anybody want to keep daylight saving time? Have we

270
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,360
Speaker 4: found that guy yet?

271
00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,199
Speaker 2: I don't know, Jesus, I think so, don't really what

272
00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:09,640
Speaker 2: you want to?

273
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 6: Like?

274
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,000
Speaker 2: See on the kids see so they can get on the.

275
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:12,880
Speaker 4: School yester the morning.

276
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,440
Speaker 5: Oh there's there's we can handle all that.

277
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:16,080
Speaker 4: We can handle that.

278
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,960
Speaker 5: That going back and forth is just it's antiquated.

279
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,439
Speaker 4: It was created for farmers. It's just completely antiquated.

280
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,640
Speaker 2: So the farmers of New Hampshire are talking.

281
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:24,319
Speaker 4: And I'm listening.

282
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,280
Speaker 5: I'm for one m listening, as is my successor Kelly aot.

283
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:27,880
Speaker 4: She's listening to.

284
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,480
Speaker 2: What's your advice for Kelly at the first challenge she's

285
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,000
Speaker 2: going to face when she comes in. We've only got

286
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:33,719
Speaker 2: about a minute left.

287
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,000
Speaker 5: The advice is, uh, do right by New Hampshire first

288
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,200
Speaker 5: and foremost. Call the balls and strikes like you see him.

289
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,199
Speaker 5: If it's a Trump thing and he does right, give

290
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,439
Speaker 5: him credit. If Trump at the administration Republicans don't do right,

291
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 5: call him out on it.

292
00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:45,480
Speaker 1: Right.

293
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,959
Speaker 5: She has a platform as a governor, as someone who

294
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,040
Speaker 5: who understands how these things work and has is going

295
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,959
Speaker 5: to undoubtedly be working hard to keep that keep that

296
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 5: lift for your die spirit strong to just call the

297
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,880
Speaker 5: balls strike. Don't over I say this, don't overthink the politics.

298
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,240
Speaker 5: Just do right by your state, right by your constituents,

299
00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,400
Speaker 5: and it all work out in the end. The politics

300
00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,360
Speaker 5: takes care of itself when you get stuff done.

301
00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,280
Speaker 2: Twenty ninety is you're going to be on an island.

302
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,920
Speaker 4: What's the now, I'm getting a job. I'm listening to

303
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 4: get a job.

304
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,960
Speaker 5: A wealthy man I a as a civil engineer and

305
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,040
Speaker 5: a guy who ran a ski resort. Neither of those

306
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,160
Speaker 5: actually paid very well, so well looking for a real.

307
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,720
Speaker 2: Job stay in touch with us. We'd like to keep

308
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,079
Speaker 2: this conversation going absolutely.

309
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:22,560
Speaker 4: Thank you guys.

310
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,960
Speaker 2: Great to have us, of course, Governor for now of

311
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 2: New Hampshire, Christan Nunu, the Republican from the Granite State.

312
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,280
Speaker 2: Great conversation you'll only hear right here on Bloomberg TV

313
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 2: and radio.

314
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,320
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Can

315
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 1: just live weekdays at noon Eastern on Apple car Play

316
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,760
Speaker 1: and then royd Otto with the Bloomberg Business App. You

317
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,000
Speaker 1: can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship

318
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:52,200
Speaker 1: New York station, just Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty.

319
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,880
Speaker 3: New York is a popular place to be if you

320
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,079
Speaker 3: are an incoming member of the second Trump administration, or

321
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 3: at least a secretary designate. As we saw this morning

322
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,640
Speaker 3: ringing the opening bell at the New York Stock Exchange

323
00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 3: was President elect Donald Trump, and he brought along with

324
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,640
Speaker 3: him some of those who will comprise the most senior

325
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 3: levels of his cabinet, assuming of course, they get confirmed,

326
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 3: including the likes of Treasury Secretary Designate Scott Bessant. RFK Junior.

327
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 3: Was there others as well that we could talk about,

328
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,200
Speaker 3: but he of course was there because he was selected

329
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 3: as Times Person of the Year this year, the second

330
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,800
Speaker 3: time that he has been awarded that, but he used

331
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,560
Speaker 3: it as an opportunity to make his case once again

332
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,400
Speaker 3: about what he intends to deliver for Wall Street.

333
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,400
Speaker 7: The economy, I believe is going to be very strong.

334
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 7: We do have to solve some problems. We have wars

335
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,400
Speaker 7: going on that we didn't have. We have a lot

336
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 7: of things happening that we didn't have that would have

337
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,720
Speaker 7: never happened. They would have never happened, but now they

338
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 7: have happened, and I want to get him solved.

339
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 2: Interesting if you're with us on Bloomberg Radio, to look

340
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 2: at the cadre of officials behind Donald Trump. To your point, Kallie,

341
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,640
Speaker 2: it's interesting who was invited RFK Junior standing behind him,

342
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,160
Speaker 2: Scott Besant, We saw Kelly Leffler. Interestingly, Howard Lutnik was

343
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 2: just off to the side. He was cropped out of

344
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,560
Speaker 2: that image. And Brooke Rollins, I thought was interesting to

345
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 2: pick for agriculture, reminding us of how close they are

346
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,200
Speaker 2: in the roles that they're all potentially going to play

347
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,280
Speaker 2: here when it comes to setting policy in the new

348
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,880
Speaker 2: White House. Gregory Coording is with us now Bloomberg Politics

349
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,320
Speaker 2: reporter at the table here in Washington. It's good to

350
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:30,280
Speaker 2: see you, sir, with the New York Stock Exchange display

351
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 2: this morning. Speak to the optics here of this incoming

352
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,400
Speaker 2: president being there for the markets.

353
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think this. We hadn't seen Trump in public

354
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 8: for quite a while. Perhaps this is the most we've

355
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 8: seen of him since the election, unless I'm forgetting something.

356
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,360
Speaker 8: But it was a moment for him because, on the

357
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,440
Speaker 8: one hand, he could go to the stock exchange and

358
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,200
Speaker 8: tut this remarkable year that we've had in the stock market,

359
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,960
Speaker 8: which he takes credit for not even being in office.

360
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 8: He has made the case. This is something he attributes to

361
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,120
Speaker 8: Scott Pisent is coming Secretary of Treasury, this idea that

362
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 8: this stock market xuberance we've seen this year is entirely

363
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,000
Speaker 8: due to the fact that people predicted that Trump would

364
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 8: win the election. We've crunched the numbers on that, and

365
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,000
Speaker 8: there's not a whole lot of statistical evidence that that's

366
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,480
Speaker 8: the case if you look at the poll numbers and

367
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,600
Speaker 8: how they're correlated to what the market's done. But has

368
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 8: been an extraordinary year, and he wants to sort of

369
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,240
Speaker 8: tout that but also he was in New York because

370
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,280
Speaker 8: he's the time Man of the Year, and that gives

371
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,840
Speaker 8: that's something that cover is something that he's always coveted.

372
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,240
Speaker 8: He's gotten it twice now when he was elected the

373
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 8: first time and now the second time. So it was

374
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,960
Speaker 8: a good moment for him to come out and basket

375
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,359
Speaker 8: a little bit in the transition.

376
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,720
Speaker 3: Well and talk more about things that we imagine a

377
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,360
Speaker 3: Wall Street audience is pretty receptive to, like say, lower

378
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 3: corporate taxes. He talked about that fifteen percent rate once again.

379
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,440
Speaker 3: But we're reporting now here at Bloomberg that his team

380
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 3: is considering a lift to the self cap, which many

381
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 3: gathered there at the Nicey also care about, but only

382
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,320
Speaker 3: to twenty thousand dollars. And I wonder how that's going

383
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:55,800
Speaker 3: to go over.

384
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, obviously there are people in the higher

385
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,680
Speaker 8: tax jurisdictions in this country, and the New York metropolitan

386
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 8: area is one of them, which should say that the

387
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 8: Washington DC area is also one of them, where people

388
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 8: pay a higher proportion their incomes in property and state

389
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,639
Speaker 8: income taxes they had been able to write off on

390
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,439
Speaker 8: their federal taxes. Trump's Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of

391
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,680
Speaker 8: twenty seventeen took away that deduction, or at least capped

392
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,240
Speaker 8: it at ten thousand dollars, made it really unfeasible for

393
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 8: most people to claim it. Most people then took the

394
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 8: standard deduction. This was a thornon Democrat side because who

395
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,560
Speaker 8: lives in New York and Washington mostly Democrats. But when

396
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,200
Speaker 8: Trump was campaigning, he went to Long Island, where there's

397
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,119
Speaker 8: maybe a little bit more of a reddish tint than

398
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:40,920
Speaker 8: the city, and this is an issue there as well.

399
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,479
Speaker 8: He promised to do something on it. We'll see how

400
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 8: this all mix comes into the mix, because he also

401
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,960
Speaker 8: promised no tax on tips, no taxes on Social Security benefits,

402
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,000
Speaker 8: no taxes on overtime. There's a lot that he wants

403
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 8: to do in addition to extending the tax cuts of

404
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:53,400
Speaker 8: twenty seven.

405
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,000
Speaker 2: That's for sure. Stephen Moore, talking to Bloomberg about this idea,

406
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,880
Speaker 2: by the way, said they're opposed to an unlimited deduction, which,

407
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 2: as Kaylee mentions, is kind of the news here because

408
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,359
Speaker 2: that would amount to quote, the biggest tax cut for

409
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,520
Speaker 2: millionaires and billionaires ever unquote. So did they just find

410
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 2: the number that they think could pass.

411
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 8: There is one sort of policy disagreement with this from

412
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,040
Speaker 8: the beginning is that, unlike other deductions, it's not doubled

413
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,360
Speaker 8: when you are married filing jointly. There is a marriage

414
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,439
Speaker 8: penalty to this salt tax cap that stuck in a

415
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,119
Speaker 8: lot of people's across so effectively doubling it to twenty

416
00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,200
Speaker 8: thousand dollars kind of lets you perhaps that's the mechanism

417
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,439
Speaker 8: to do it, or maybe they just double it. But

418
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 8: that was one I think legitimate policy question around the

419
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:38,800
Speaker 8: whole salt tax cap.

420
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,959
Speaker 2: But unlimited wouldn't have been palatable too a lot of states.

421
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,159
Speaker 8: I mean, OK, when you talk to people at the

422
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,199
Speaker 8: higher end, now, you know, the fact is that a

423
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 8: lot of people on the higher end structure their income

424
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 8: in such a way they don't pay a whole lot

425
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,679
Speaker 8: of taxes anyway. And you know, one thing that did

426
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 8: benefit them was a sell tax cap, but they had

427
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,720
Speaker 8: other ways of reducing their income as well. We do

428
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,520
Speaker 8: get some data on how it's structured. Yeah, absolutely, people

429
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 8: at the top of the top death style of incomes,

430
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,200
Speaker 8: not surprisingly got the biggest.

431
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 2: Benefit from it.

432
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: All right.

433
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 3: Gregory Cording, Bloomberg White House and Politics reporter, thank you

434
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 3: as always for joining us as we consider something so

435
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 3: important to our audience here on Bloomberg TV story that

436
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,440
Speaker 3: salt cap pretty much everything related to salt, I feel

437
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 3: like always rockets to the top of most read on

438
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:25,879
Speaker 3: the terminal.

439
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,480
Speaker 2: Gregory Cordy, Salt correspondent, H it's the best job in

440
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 2: the room.

441
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, function of the day read go on the terminal.

442
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,199
Speaker 3: You see what people are reading, and we certainly know

443
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 3: our political panel is paying attention to these stories. To

444
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,680
Speaker 3: you joining us today, Rick Davis, Bloomberg Politics contributor, Stone

445
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 3: Court Capital partner and Republican strategist, alongside Democratic strategist Brad Howard,

446
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,720
Speaker 3: who is founder at Corkoran Street Group. Thank you both

447
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 3: for being here. Brad, I would love to have you

448
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,159
Speaker 3: weigh in on this salt question because, as Gregory was

449
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,880
Speaker 3: just telling us, this is actually something that a lot

450
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 3: of Democrats in blue states would like to see go higher.

451
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 3: Is this Donald Trump's way of making sure he has

452
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,199
Speaker 3: the requisite votes to get whatever other tax cuts he

453
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:04,160
Speaker 3: wants through.

454
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,680
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I was on My boss was a ways

455
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,480
Speaker 9: it means committee member, and we were part of the

456
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,399
Speaker 9: negotiations on a lot of the you know what we

457
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 9: did in the Inflation Reduction Act and there was a

458
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,320
Speaker 9: big push for salt thin. If you recall, the problem

459
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,679
Speaker 9: with salt is that it's incredibly expensive once you repeal it.

460
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 9: And you know, I think when the Republicans did it

461
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 9: in twenty seventeen, they thought they were doing a a

462
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,200
Speaker 9: I guess a dig at, like you know, high tax

463
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 9: states like New York and California and trying to send

464
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,199
Speaker 9: them to states like Texas and Florida. So as a

465
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 9: Florida member, you know, we supported the reinstatement of the

466
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,120
Speaker 9: tax or you know, getting rid of the cap there

467
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 9: or keep supported that effort anyway, like we're not. What

468
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 9: I'm saying is that when you're from a low tax state,

469
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 9: this doesn't really impact you, but the high tax state.

470
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 9: So you talk about there's Orange County Republicans that lost

471
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 9: elections over this issue. So it's a very real thing.

472
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 9: And you've got this interesting bedfellows of Democrats and Republicans

473
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 9: in New Jersey, in New York and California that are

474
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 9: pushing this. And keep in mind, again one to four

475
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 9: seat majority that Johnson's got to do. You're not going

476
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,120
Speaker 9: to get a single Democratic vote on reconciliation none, because

477
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 9: it's a purely partisan process. So I don't know how

478
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 9: they put this together and compromise on this and keep

479
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 9: it in and within a reasonable price tag.

480
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 2: Rick, you know the importance of this issue as someone

481
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 2: who spends as much time as you do in the Washington,

482
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 2: DC and New York City areas. What lines, however, will

483
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 2: the Trump team find when it comes to all of

484
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 2: these tax proposals. We can talk about salt all day long,

485
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 2: but as Greg RECORDI reminded us, it was no tax

486
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 2: on tips, on overtime, on so many other issues that

487
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 2: when it comes time to sit down and talk about

488
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 2: extending the twenty seventeen tax cuts, it could get to

489
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 2: be a more complicated conversation.

490
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 7: No.

491
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 10: Yeah, because then you're talking about the deficit. And the

492
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 10: reality is that Donald Trump campaigned as much on trying

493
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 10: to reign in government spending as he did on these

494
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 10: tax cut giveaways. Now maybe not, maybe he said more

495
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 10: about tax cut giveaways than anything else combined, But the

496
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 10: reality is all this costs us an enormous amount. As

497
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 10: bad points out, this is massive budget impact. I mean,

498
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 10: this is how he paid for a large portion of

499
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 10: the twenty seventeen tax cuts was by putting a cap

500
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 10: on salt and reaping the benefits to the treasury. So

501
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 10: how you replace that, especially if you are adding additional

502
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 10: tax cuts beyond the core twenty seventeen tax cuts. And

503
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 10: we've heard nothing really from the team around Trump about

504
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 10: maybe excluding and letting fall by the wayside some of

505
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 10: the twenty seventeen tax cuts to try and maybe upgrade

506
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 10: the policy to be more relevant to tax reform than

507
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 10: just tax cuts. And so it's a real problem for them.

508
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 10: They can't look like they've come into the office and

509
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 10: spent hundreds of billions of new dollars on defense, hundreds

510
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 10: of billions of new dollars on the border, tax cuts everywhere,

511
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 10: and they wound up spending more into the deficit than

512
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 10: Joe Biden did in his four years. And that would

513
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 10: be a real problem for MAGA and the Republicans.

514
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 3: But that's the point of the doge, right Rick Gett,

515
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 3: Elon Musk and the vacant there to recommend a lot

516
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 3: of spending cuts that could help offset this.

517
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 10: Well, yeah, but if you're adding hundreds of billions of

518
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 10: dollars to the to the to the pile, it's not

519
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,479
Speaker 10: just cutting this, but you know, making up for it

520
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 10: in addition to the cuts that you're already planning on. Look,

521
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 10: I mean in the budget today is the expiration of

522
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 10: the Trump tax cuts twenty seventeen in twenty twenty five.

523
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 10: So you know, it's a huge windfall right now for

524
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 10: the federal government if you look at how you plan

525
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 10: for the next ten years. The more they take out

526
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 10: of that planning for the next ten years, the bigger

527
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,719
Speaker 10: that deficit's going to get. And of course, you know,

528
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 10: we haven't proven yet whether or not the dogs will work,

529
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 10: and you can actually go find trillions of dollars in cuts.

530
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: Fair enough talk to us about the doge Brad Howard.

531
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: You spent enough time in the House to see a

532
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: couple of blue ribbon panels go by. What makes us

533
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 2: think any of this will actually end up in policy?

534
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think when you look at so it's not

535
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 9: a real department. You know, it's called Department of an Efficiency,

536
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 9: but it's not and you would have to create it

537
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 9: by statute, of which Democrats could filibusters. So I don't

538
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 9: see it coming to fruition as as an agency. It

539
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 9: may just stay this quasi kind of working group. There

540
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 9: is a subcommittee under oversight that's going to come to

541
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 9: fruition on the House side, but they don't really have

542
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 9: much jurisdiction over the you know, able to introduce bills

543
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 9: in this space because it's strictly kind of an appropriations thing.

544
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,479
Speaker 9: So you're going to see appropriators kind of balk their

545
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 9: heads at this effort. But you've got a pretty powerful

546
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 9: duo in that Roaminswamy and Elon Musk, and with Elon

547
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 9: Musk threatening to fund primary challenges against Republicans now who

548
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 9: don't fall in line, they it's could have some real weight.

549
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 9: We'll see the problem is that Democrats are very concerned

550
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 9: that the Republicans are going to drive up deficits so

551
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 9: high in the national debts, so high that they're then

552
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 9: going to demand or force spending cuts. And so essentially

553
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 9: what you're doing is cutting taxes for the wealthy and

554
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 9: multinational corporations, and you're strip You've already seen Republicans talk

555
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 9: about cutting social security benefits, they're going to cut food stamps,

556
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 9: they're going to cut all infrastructure dollars, they're going to

557
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 9: cut all this investment in green energy. So we really

558
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 9: start to see massive deficits and massive cuts, and Americans

559
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 9: are just left high and dry, and I think that's

560
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 9: the concern when you have billionaires running the presidency.

561
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: I want to ask you both about something else. As

562
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 3: we mentioned, the reason that Donald Trump was at the

563
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 3: New York Stock Exchange today talking about these ideas around

564
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 3: taxes was because he was selected as Times Person of

565
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 3: the Year and sat down with an interview with time

566
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 3: for an interview because of that, and in part they

567
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 3: talked about the war in Ukraine, and Trump said, quote,

568
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 3: I want to reach an agreement, and the only way

569
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 3: you're going to reach an agreement is not too abandoned.

570
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 3: When he was asked directly if he would abandon Rick,

571
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 3: what is that signal to you?

572
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: Yeah?

573
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 10: Look, I mean he's a negotiator, and he knows that

574
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 10: Biden's in the process of chunking as much cash and

575
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 10: weapons into Ukraine as he can get done between now

576
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 10: and January twentieth, and that that's tens of billions of

577
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 10: dollars on top of everything else we've already spent, you know,

578
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 10: to get the number closer to one hundred billion. And

579
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 10: Donald Trump sees at his leverage. And the point about

580
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 10: his leverage of this shouldn't be mistaken is it's only

581
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 10: leverage if you agree to suspend those payments or those

582
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 10: weapons shipments if there is peace. Right In other words,

583
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 10: you know, it's great to say, hey, I've got you know,

584
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 10: fifty billion dollars in the pipeline that I can cut

585
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 10: off if you make peace with me. The problem with

586
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 10: that is it's cutting off that economic aid too. And

587
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 10: so yeah, I think it's a positive in the sense

588
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 10: that we've always thought that this would be the approach

589
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 10: that Donald Trump would would make, is that you know,

590
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 10: we've got all this work and effort and weapons and

591
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 10: money going toward helping Ukraine beat back the invasion of Russia.

592
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 10: And that's a great negotiating position until at which point

593
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 10: in time you give it away, and then the question

594
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 10: is what guarantees did you get that Russia isn't going

595
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 10: to play bad actor in the region Again, Brad.

596
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: Howard, we're just about out of time, so I'm going

597
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: to set you up here. It's only a minute left.

598
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: We're going to be talking later this hour with New

599
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: Hampshire Governor Chris Sanunu, who is calling for a balanced

600
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: budget amendment. He says it's time to reconsider the idea

601
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: as somebody who has spent enough time on Capitol Hill

602
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: to know better. Does it stand a chance?

603
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 9: Well, no, and here it's mainly the public opinion is

604
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 9: there for it. My boss was introduced a balanced budget

605
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 9: amendment when she was in Congress nearly every term and

606
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 9: fought hard for it. The problem is a constitutional men

607
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 9: requires two thirds vote in the House and Senate and

608
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 9: then ratification among the states. The President actually has no

609
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 9: role here other than the champion to oppose it. H

610
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 9: But when you look at the question is there's several

611
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 9: bounced budget minutes out there, the real question is do

612
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 9: you protect Social Security Medicare in those amendments or do

613
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 9: you ban for instance, Republican BBAs with your bounced budget amnutes.

614
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 9: They opposed tax increases, which you're gonna need to bounce

615
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 9: the budget. Democrats opposed cutstant programs like earned benefits like

616
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 9: SOB Security Medicare. So there's never an agreement and it's

617
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 9: an impossible test.

618
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 2: No easy answer. Brad Howard and Rick Davis, great panel,

619
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: Thank you for the great conversation.

620
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 1: You're listening to. The Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast catches

621
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: live weekdays at noon Eastern onmo car Play and then

622
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: rout with the Bloomberg Business App, Listen on demand wherever

623
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube.

624
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 3: I'm kiddy lines alongside Joe Matthew here in Washington, which

625
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 3: was absolutely rocked a week ago Sunday by the news

626
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 3: that President Biden was pardoning his son Hunter, despite of

627
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: course insistence for an extended period of time that he

628
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 3: would not do so, and it opened up a question

629
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: as to what more pardons could be coming from this

630
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 3: president before he leaves the Oval office. We've of course

631
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 3: heard rumblings about the notion that he could, for example,

632
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 3: pardon the likes of former Congresswoman Liz Cheney or former

633
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 3: Congressman Adam King Singer. But those aren't the pardons we

634
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: got today, though we did get a lot of them,

635
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: thirty nine to be exact, and nearly fifteen hundred sentences

636
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 3: commuted by the President Jack.

637
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: It's a number that jumps off the page. And Donald Trump,

638
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: I should say, Joe Biden pardon me made clear that

639
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: he's not done. The quote from the President of the

640
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: United States, I will take more steps in the weeks

641
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 2: ahead unquote. We do have questions about what this means

642
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: for the rest of course, the Biden administration and the

643
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,479
Speaker 2: incoming Trump administration, and Kaylee and I have really been

644
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: taken since that Hunter Biden pardon by the work of

645
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: Kim Whaley with some of the best analysis. She literally

646
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: wrote the book on this law professor at the University

647
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: of Baltimore School of Law, author of Pardon Power, How

648
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: the pardons system works, and why Kim, it's great to

649
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: see you. Welcome to Bloomberg TV and Radio. I don't

650
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: know if we're done yet, it's sounding like we're not.

651
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: But these fifteen roughly one hundred people released from prison

652
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 2: placed on home confinement during COVID was this an appropriate

653
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: use of the pardon power.

654
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 6: It looks like this was to allow these folks to

655
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 6: not be reverted back to prison in this moment. So

656
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 6: the idea behind the pardon power is primarily mercy. That

657
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 6: the president has a tremendous amount of discretion to assess

658
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 6: what the conviction was, what the sentence was, and whether,

659
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 6: in fairness it makes sense to lift some conditions of

660
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 6: that criminal conviction. So this does not, you know, I think,

661
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 6: fall into a troubling pardon, although it's unusual for a

662
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 6: president to do it in these numbers of course, Joe

663
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 6: Biden had done it once before with non violent, low

664
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 6: level marijuana convictions as well well.

665
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 3: So let's talk about a pardon then that many did

666
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 3: find troubling, which was the pardon of his son Hunter,

667
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 3: not just because of the fact that he said he

668
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 3: wasn't going to go ahead with that, but also because

669
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 3: of the unique nature of that pardon. He wasn't just

670
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: pardoning him for the crimes he was convicted of, but

671
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: essentially giving him a year's long period of time for

672
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: which anything he did he could not be prosecuted for.

673
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: He was pardoned for Kim, and I wonder what precedent

674
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 3: has now been said as we consider whether or not

675
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: Joe Biden might look to issue a similar pardon to

676
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 3: the one he gave his son.

677
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 6: Well, it was actually, I think longer, it might have

678
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 6: been ten years. It's not unique, however, in that there

679
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 6: have been presidents in the past that have issued general

680
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 6: pardons without anything specific. For example, Jimmy Carter issued pardons

681
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 6: for people who dodged the draft. The pardon is actually

682
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 6: quite vague. It doesn't identify any people in particular, and

683
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 6: something more I tailored to an individual would be of course,

684
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 6: Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon, which was not just

685
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 6: for the crimes that were ready to go in an

686
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 6: indictment against Nixon that wasn't actually filed against him, but

687
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 6: it was ready to go, but any crimes additional crimes

688
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 6: that he could have been charged with within that particular

689
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 6: time period around Watergate. I believe that the Biden part

690
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,719
Speaker 6: in the Hunter Biden what you're identifying as unusual was

691
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 6: likely an anticipation of the incoming president, Donald Trump's promise

692
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 6: to use the Department of Justice as an arm of

693
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 6: retribution and to go after folks that he believes just

694
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 6: should be should be prosecuted for having taken action that's

695
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 6: inconsistent with Donald Trump's interest. Now that's not Hunter Biden,

696
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 6: but Hunter Biden by virtue of being Hunter Biden has

697
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 6: definitely been had a target on his back politically in

698
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 6: ways that other folks that engaged in the kind of

699
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 6: behavior that gave rise to his plea deal, his plea

700
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 6: deal as well of his conviction for lying on a

701
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 6: gun application in Delaware about his drug addiction, and then

702
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 6: in California some tax problems that he later paid back

703
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 6: with interest. These are not big, high level crimes of violence.

704
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 6: But I think the concern across the board is what's

705
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 6: the Justice Department going to look like under a second

706
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 6: Trump administration.

707
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, just the idea of these preemptive pardons, if

708
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: we can call on that, has been getting a lot

709
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: of talk around Washington. Some folks are raising their hands.

710
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: Benny Thompson was asked about it, the former chair of

711
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: the January sixth Committee in the House, concerned about being targeted.

712
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: We've heard Liz Cheney's name banded about Adam Kinzinger. What

713
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: would that mean for the precedent in this administration if

714
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: Joe Biden went there.

715
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 6: So those people actually to the extent to which they

716
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 6: were taking actions in connection with the speech and debate clause,

717
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 6: there's arguably some immunity they already would have. I think

718
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 6: the bigger concern really is the lower level folks that

719
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 6: maybe participated as witnesses. You know, these documents, some of

720
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 6: it is probably not even public that Donald Trump would

721
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 6: then have access to that kind of retribution. But absolutely

722
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 6: this would be a precedent setting action. But my view

723
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 6: is that it would be in response to a precedent

724
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 6: setting plan for the Department of Justice. You know, arguably

725
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 6: under Hoover, there was a JEdgar Hoover. There was the

726
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 6: Justice Department used to spy on political enemies, famously Martin

727
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 6: Luther King, for example. That was a you know, not

728
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 6: a proud position part of American history. What Donald Trump

729
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 6: and what looks like his cabinet it picks, seemed to

730
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 6: promise is widespread, potentially vindictive prosecutions. And for that, yeah,

731
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 6: this is would be setting a brand new president with

732
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 6: a lot of problematic implications around the across the board.

733
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 3: Well, so as we consider what future preemptive pardons might

734
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 3: be given to, say members of the January sixth Committee,

735
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 3: there's also the question of pardons for people who have

736
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 3: been convicted of crimes on January sixth. Just today, in

737
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 3: an interview published with Time, the President elect, who of

738
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 3: course is Times Person of the Year, was asked if

739
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: he would pardon all January six defends. He said yes.

740
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 3: When asked, you're going to do all of them, he said,

741
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 3: I'm going to do case by case and if they

742
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 3: were nonviolent, I think they've been greatly punished, And the

743
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 3: answer is I will be doing that. I'm going to

744
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 3: look to see if there were some that were really

745
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 3: out of control. Keeping in mind here, Kim, that there

746
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 3: are already hundreds of people who have been convicted or

747
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 3: pleaded guilty to crimes related to their activities on January sixth,

748
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 3: with the majority of those receiving some time behind bars.

749
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 3: But given there have been different crimes and different sentences here,

750
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 3: can he just do this in a blanket way or

751
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 3: will it have to be case by case, single names.

752
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 6: He could do it in a blanket way, or it

753
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 6: could be case by case. The pardon power in the

754
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 6: constitution's extremely broad. There's very few cases that have made

755
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 6: it to the Supreme Court to narrow it or put

756
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 6: any limitations on it. And of course, in the Trump

757
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 6: versus us Immunity case, where the Court created criminal immunity

758
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 6: for presidents, it went out of its way to get

759
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 6: out of black sharpie and underscore that the pardon power

760
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 6: is extremely broad as far as the president's authority, you know,

761
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 6: to answer your question on January sixth, that would be about,

762
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 6: you know, lawyers crafting the language of a more generic

763
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 6: pardon to be sure that it captures the folks that

764
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 6: Donald Trump would want to be included in that. I

765
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 6: think there are over eighteen hundred prosecutions at this point.

766
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 6: If he's talking about violent offenses, that kind of language

767
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 6: sort of accepting maybe people from the part in if

768
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 6: they engaged in violence, maybe that would be in there,

769
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 6: or he could give a list. I think it's on

770
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 6: the Justice Department's website fairly straightforward to easy. But that

771
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 6: kind of pardon I think is of a concern in

772
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 6: a way that say, the Hunter Biden pardon was not

773
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 6: because of the nature of January sixth and the violence

774
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 6: that was part of that. We have to ask ourselves

775
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 6: with pardons, going back to George Washington, is a pardon

776
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 6: being issued going to make the country less safe, either

777
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 6: because that person will go on to commit crimes or

778
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 6: because the pardon is being done in a self interested way,

779
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 6: in a corrupt way, in a way to allow the

780
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 6: president to commit crimes. Those are different categories I think

781
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 6: of pardons than pardons under the traditional way for mercy

782
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 6: that go back before the King of England, back to

783
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 6: the Bible. Jesus Christ was denied a pardon and that

784
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 6: gave birth of the Christian religion. The whole idea is

785
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 6: the criminal justice system, people fall through the cracks and

786
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 6: there needs to be a fix survey done this summer,

787
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,879
Speaker 6: both Republicans and Democrats, a majority of both did not

788
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 6: want to see pardons for the January six and people

789
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 6: that participated in that because of the concern of violence

790
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 6: around elections and an emboldening of the energy around what

791
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 6: happened on that day.

792
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: Kim, you're writing in an op ed in The Hill today,

793
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 2: say goodbye to federal protections and hello to Trump's advancing

794
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 2: loyalist army. You're writing about Schedule F, which we've heard

795
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 2: a lot about, and of course some of the names

796
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: that could be coming into government here and the many

797
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 2: that could be leaving as Donald Trump promises to drain

798
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 2: the swamp. What would it mean for the Justice Department, for.

799
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 6: The SCHEDULEF for the Justice Department, That's a great question.

800
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 6: There are scheduled officials within the Justice Department. And when

801
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 6: I say that and explain in the op ed, what

802
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 6: does that mean. Basically, in the there was what was

803
00:38:55,239 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 6: known as the spoils system that kind of took hold

804
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 6: of the federal government early in the late nineteenth early

805
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 6: twentieth centuries, where presidents just put their cronies and loyalists

806
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 6: in across the board, populating the American federal government, and

807
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,919
Speaker 6: Congress responded that to that and said, no, we don't

808
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 6: want that. That doesn't create an effective workforce. There's a

809
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 6: lot of incompetence, and loyalists don't breed a democratic spirit.

810
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 6: So they passed a law and said we want competent,

811
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 6: neutral civil servants, and that's pretty much been the standard

812
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 6: since then. But there's exceptions. Those are called schedules that

813
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 6: schedule a E and then F is what Donald Trump

814
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 6: promises to add, which would be converting some of these

815
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 6: folks into basically people that aren't protected by the other

816
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 6: protections for the civil service workers and could be fired

817
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 6: at will. But you raise a great question, which is

818
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 6: how will the Justice Department operate under Donald Trump? Number two?

819
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 6: Will they be loyalists or they uphold the rule of law.

820
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 3: We all have to wait to find out. Kim, thank

821
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 3: you so much for joining. Kim Wailey is author of

822
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: Pardon Power, How the Pardon System Works and Why, also

823
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 3: law professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law.

824
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 3: Here on Balance of Power. Some quick breaking news to mention,

825
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 3: Emmanuel mccrone's office says a new French premier will be

826
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 3: announced Friday, morning, so we'll learn the replacement of Michelle Barniery.

827
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: We'll have more here on Bloomberg.

828
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast kens

829
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and then

830
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: roun Oo with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also

831
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station,

832
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

833
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: One of the best pieces of news I heard today

834
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 2: was that Jessica Roth was coming on. And I'm pretty

835
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 2: sure I could talk to Jessica Roth about anything, but

836
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: she is not here to talk salt. We have another

837
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: big story when it comes to the pardons and commutations

838
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: here out of the White House with my gosh, these

839
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 2: numbers jumps off the page. When you start reading into

840
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: the names though, and the justification, it might not be

841
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 2: quite as fun as it seems. The President, though, is

842
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: commuting the sentences of some fifteen hundred people released from

843
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 2: prison and placed on home confinement during COVID. He's also

844
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: pardoning thirty nine Americans convicted of nonviolent crimes, and he says, well,

845
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 2: he's not done yet. Co director the Jacob Burns Center

846
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: for Ethics to the practice of law at Cardozo Law.

847
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: Former federal prosecutor sd NY, Jessica Roth, It's great to

848
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: see you, Jessica. Thank you so much for coming in.

849
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,240
Speaker 2: This got your attention. Surely were these justified?

850
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 11: Well, it appears that they were, and were consistent with

851
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 11: the way in which the extraordinary power entrusted to the

852
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 11: president by the Constitution to grant pardons and clemency has

853
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 11: been exercised. Obviously, I haven't gone through and looked at

854
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 11: the details about every individual, but in terms of the

855
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 11: reasons that the President gave for granting his power as

856
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 11: he did for these groups of individuals, these are traditional

857
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 11: reasons to exercise these extraordinary powers. Some of these people

858
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 11: were home sent home from prison during the COVID pandemic

859
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 11: and conducted themselves in an exemplary manner, suggesting that they

860
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 11: did not require being returned to prison. Other people were

861
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 11: convicted of crimes that might have been prosecuted differently today

862
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 11: under current rules or laws or norms about prosecution with

863
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 11: respect to drug offenses. So these are the kinds of

864
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 11: considerations that have typically been taken into account by the

865
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 11: presidency and also those working with the president to help

866
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 11: the president exercise this power. There is a whole apparatus

867
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 11: within the White House and the Department of Justice for

868
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 11: reviewing petitions for pardons and clemency to really look at

869
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 11: the individual records and the circumstances and also some of

870
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 11: these issues about whether laws and norms have changed. So

871
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 11: these seem to be consistent with that tradition.

872
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: Josh Wingrove just said, these aren't fifteen hundred hunters. Well, well,

873
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 2: the President says he will take more steps in the

874
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 2: weeks ahead. And I want to ask you about this

875
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 2: idea of preemptive pardons in a minute. But the previous record,

876
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 2: I didn't know this was a Barack Obama three hundred

877
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: and thirty in one day before he left office in

878
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. But this is a COVID phenomenon, right, I

879
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 2: guess these are extreme times that call for an extreme number.

880
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 11: Professor, Yes, my understanding is that the vast majority of

881
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 11: those pardons and clemencies that were announced today, the clemencies

882
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 11: were for people who were sent home to home confinement

883
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 11: during COVID and so obviously that is an extraordinary set

884
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 11: of circumstances.

885
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: What do you think about what we're about to hear

886
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: Benny Thompson, who chaired the January sixth Committee, Democrat in

887
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 2: the House, says he's open to a pardon. I believe

888
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 2: the quote was, it's his barrogative. If he offers it

889
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 2: to me, I would accept it, but it's his choice.

890
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 2: Liz Cheney has been on the list, along with a

891
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 2: few O there's what do you think of the concept

892
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 2: of a preemptive pardon, doing this for somebody who's technically

893
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: not in any trouble.

894
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 11: Yeah, I'm troubled by the concept of the preemptive pardon.

895
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 11: I was troubled by it, frankly when the President did

896
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 11: it for Hunter Biden, although I understood in that circumstance

897
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 11: why he would do it, given what some of the

898
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 11: statements by President elect Trump and by his prospective nominees,

899
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 11: for example, to run the FBI about intending to go

900
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 11: after Hunter Biden and some of these individuals on the

901
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 11: so called enemy's list. So I understand the rationale for

902
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 11: doing it. That said, that is not the norm for

903
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 11: how the pardon power has been exercised. The fifteen hundred

904
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 11: people we were just talking about. That is the norm

905
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 11: and how the pardon power has been exercised not to

906
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 11: do it preemptively in language that essentially gives people immunity

907
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 11: for everything they might have done, every crime they could

908
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 11: have possibly committed during a period of time. I'm troubled

909
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 11: by that becoming normalized. It also, frankly wouldn't insulate people

910
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 11: from all harassment. So, for example, a congressional committee could

911
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 11: still investigate individuals who had been granted a pardon, subjecting

912
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 11: them to sort of the difficulties of responding to subpoenas

913
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 11: and having to testify before Congress, having to retain lawyers

914
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 11: to represent them in that regard. Other agencies government agencies

915
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 11: could investigate them like the irs. So it's not like

916
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 11: a pardon accomplishes everything that people might think that it would.

917
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 11: It does pre empt a criminal prosecution of the individuals

918
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 11: who are named, but it doesn't accomplish everything. And so

919
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 11: because of the practical considerations of just how effective is

920
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 11: it and its intended aims, and normalizing this idea of

921
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 11: a preemptive pardon, and also suggesting that the people involved

922
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 11: did anything wrong, for all of those reasons, I am

923
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 11: terribly concerned by it, even though I do understand the

924
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 11: rationale for doing it given these extraordinary times we find

925
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 11: ourselves in where people are literally on an announced enemies list.

926
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 2: You know, even Bill Clinton doesn't think it's a good idea.

927
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: He was asked about this on ABC TV. It was

928
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: on the View as a matter of fact, he said,

929
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 2: I think it's a very personal thing. But then he

930
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 2: stopped himself and he said, I hope he won't do that,

931
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 2: this idea of preemptive pardons. And I wonder if it

932
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 2: has to do with precedent. Professor. I know we're not

933
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 2: in Bill Clinton's head here, but if Joe Biden goes there,

934
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 2: what does that mean for Donald Trump in his nextern.

935
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 11: Yeah, So when I said a moment ago, I'm troubled

936
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 11: by the idea of normalizing this, I mean, that's really

937
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,760
Speaker 11: what I'm talking about is sort of setting a norm,

938
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 11: a new norm about the use of the pardons in

939
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 11: this preemptive broad way, setting the precedent that other presidents

940
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 11: then would cite as essentially making it normal and something

941
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,959
Speaker 11: that is not extraordinary if they were to do so.

942
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 11: I don't know in the case of former President and

943
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 11: President elect Trump, to what extent the precedent set by

944
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 11: Joe Biden would actually affect what Trump would do himself

945
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 11: in terms of granting preemptive pardons, but in terms of

946
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 11: how the public receives it, the media receives it, how

947
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 11: people in our country think about it. I think it

948
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 11: does matter whether Joe Biden does it first, and whether

949
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 11: it becomes essentially an accepted part of political and legal

950
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 11: actions that we just grow accustomed to.

951
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 4: I hope it won't.

952
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: As we spend some time with Jessica Roth here on Bloomberg,

953
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: I have to ask you about Donald Trump's legal situation

954
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 2: is personal legal situation, because Professor, we spent so many

955
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: months talking about the four cases, the four federal cases

956
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 2: or two federal cases against him. We had Georgia, we

957
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 2: had New York, and it's interesting to see what's going

958
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 2: on here. Jack Smith may be out of business for now,

959
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: but Alvin Bragg says he's not opposing Trump's motion to

960
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: have his hush money case dismissed. Is this going to

961
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 2: follow him into his presidency or is his next term,

962
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: I should say, or be waiting for him when he's done.

963
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 11: Well, we don't know yet. I mean, we're waiting to

964
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 11: hear the ruling from the trial court on these very issues,

965
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 11: and then whatever the trial court decides would be subject

966
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 11: to appellate review at the Intermediate Court in New York,

967
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 11: and then the New York Court of Appeals, which is

968
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 11: the highest court in New York, and then in theory

969
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 11: before the United States Supreme Court. So we don't know

970
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 11: yet what's going to happen. Certainly it appears from the

971
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 11: filings by the District Attorney's office that they are not

972
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 11: intent on going ahead a full steam. They are open

973
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 11: to the idea of holding the whole case in abeyance

974
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 11: while Trump serves out his four year term. They're also

975
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 11: open to the sentencing going forward and whatever sentence is imposed,

976
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 11: having that held in abeyance for the four years. They're

977
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 11: also open to having the sentencing proceed and then there

978
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 11: would only be essentially appeals and the service of the sentence,

979
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 11: although again the District Attorney's Office is open to a

980
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 11: variety of ways in which that fashion that sentence could

981
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 11: be fashioned, including no prison sentence, a fine instead perhaps,

982
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 11: or just essentially unconditional discharge. Would be no further action

983
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 11: at all, and so the District attorneys offices laying out

984
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 11: a whole host of options for the trial court in

985
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 11: terms of how to proceed if the court is inclined

986
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 11: to proceed currently, or how to essentially hold the case

987
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 11: in abeyance for four years. And so we just need

988
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 11: to see what the trial court's going to do, and

989
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 11: then if there are appeals that ensue before even the

990
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,720
Speaker 11: next step at the trial court level, and I suspect

991
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 11: that's going to happen. What's going to happen. I don't

992
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 11: expect the trial court is going to dismiss the case outright,

993
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 11: which is what Trump's lawyers are asking for. And so

994
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 11: if that's the case, then I expect we're going to

995
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 11: see immediate appeals before any sentence.

996
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 2: Fascinating. I want to take one of your classes someday.

997
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: You think I could pass her class, James, I'm thinking

998
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 2: I'd get confused really quickly, but I know I'd learn

999
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: a lot. It's like going to school. Whenever we talk

1000
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 2: to Professor Jessica Roth, I only have a minute left, Professor.

1001
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 2: Let's come full circle back to where we started. Would

1002
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 2: it not be whove Joe Biden to pardon Donald Trump

1003
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 2: on his way out?

1004
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 11: Well, that's interesting. Obviously he doesn't have the authority to

1005
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 11: do that for the state prosecutions. He would only have

1006
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 11: authority to pardon him for the federal cases.

1007
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 2: And no will be talking about Hunter anymore.

1008
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 11: It's true. I think people are going to be talking

1009
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 11: less about Hunter now that the president has exercised his

1010
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 11: authority to pardon many other individuals who are not related

1011
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 11: to him. The cases against Trump, the federal cases have

1012
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 11: already been dismissed without prejudice. I think there's very little

1013
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 11: likelihood that they would actually be resurrected after the four

1014
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 11: year term, so I just don't see that happening.

1015
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 2: I had to ask. It's great to see you as always,

1016
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 2: Jessica Roth, Co director Jacob Burns Center for Ethics and

1017
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: the Practice of Law at Cardozo Law. Thanks for listening

1018
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 2: to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe

1019
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 2: if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, or wherever you

1020
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and you can find us live every

1021
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 2: weekday from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.