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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Hey everyone, I'm Robert Evans

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Speaker 1: and this is me an Mar printing the Revolution. It's

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Speaker 1: and it could happen here special mini series, an in

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Speaker 1: depth documentary investigation with me and journalist James Stout. Over

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Speaker 1: the next four days, you're going to learn about the

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Speaker 1: gen Z militias of the MA and Mar Civil War,

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Speaker 1: three D printed weapons, and a bunch of other really

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Speaker 1: fascinating stuff. Besides, So, without any further ado, here's James.

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Speaker 1: Ever since the first person built the first fence, took

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Speaker 1: land from everybody and annexed it to themselves, property rights

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Speaker 1: and violence on hand in hand with property, grew the state,

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Speaker 1: and when the state came the police. Today most of

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Speaker 1: us grew up under the control of states, and they're

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Speaker 1: so ubiquitous that their violence is often overlooked until a

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Speaker 1: particularly agreed to as incident occurs. But all states, even

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Speaker 1: the most benign, rest on a monopoly on violence. State

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Speaker 1: to the entities that impose laws on a given area,

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Speaker 1: and if you break those laws, the state can beat

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Speaker 1: you up, lock you up, or shoot you up. When

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Speaker 1: the state loses the monopoly on violence, it ceases to

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Speaker 1: be able to enforce its laws, charge its taxes, and

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Speaker 1: enforce its will on the people at rules. We've seen

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Speaker 1: this all over the world, from the Democratic Republic of

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Speaker 1: Congo to briefly downtown Seattle. Our state in the USA

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Speaker 1: speaks the language of rights and liberties. When we want

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Speaker 1: to appeal to the state, we tend to use that language.

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Speaker 1: Even though our state, as we saw in is backed

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Speaker 1: by plenty of violence as much as any other, it

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Speaker 1: goes a long way to camouflage that violence. Some states

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Speaker 1: are a bit more mask off. They speak to their

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Speaker 1: citizens more or less exclusively through violence, and when citizens

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Speaker 1: need to respond to that state, they respond to their

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Speaker 1: language it uses to speak to them. That's how a

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Speaker 1: teenager from Yangon, Myanmar ended up on Reddit in summer

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Speaker 1: of one asking strangers how to use a three D

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Speaker 1: printer and computer to make a rifle me and Ma

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Speaker 1: isn't a country that is on the radar for most

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Speaker 1: of the US. If it is a tool, it's probably

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Speaker 1: because the State Council and Foreign Minister on Scien Succhi.

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Speaker 1: She managed perhaps the history's fastest pivot from Nobel Peace

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Speaker 1: Price winner to head of a government accused of genocide.

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Speaker 1: But Suki is in jail now and the Rahania, the

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Speaker 1: Muslim ethnic group that the military attempted to eliminate from

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Speaker 1: the east of the country under her rule, are just

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Speaker 1: one of many ethnic and political groups. They're an open

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Speaker 1: armed conflict with the military who now hold control of

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Speaker 1: the government of Myanmar, known locally as a Tapmador. The

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Speaker 1: military sees power in early one you might have seen

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Speaker 1: a video of a woman doing an aerobics workout as

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Speaker 1: the vehicles rolled in behind her to seize power. Ever

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Speaker 1: since that day, they've been committing crimes against humanity all

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Speaker 1: over the country. Myama has a longer history of dictatorship

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Speaker 1: than democracy. The British East India Company occupied the area

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Speaker 1: that now represents the country in the nineteenth century. As always,

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Speaker 1: they talked about civilizing missions and freedoms, but in practice

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Speaker 1: the occupation was extractive and only benefited the Anglo Burmese

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Speaker 1: and a few Indian civil servants they brought with them often.

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Speaker 1: But this month led to resistance that manifested itself in

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Speaker 1: hunger strikes and everyday acts of disobedience, small ways of

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Speaker 1: saying no. In a few instances, it became open and

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Speaker 1: unrest biled into the streets. The country became a major

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Speaker 1: battle ground during the Second World War, with Japan evading

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Speaker 1: and seizing the country before Allied forces took it back

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Speaker 1: in a fierce campaign in nineteen As many of a

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand Japanese troops died. Burmese people fought

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Speaker 1: on both sides. As son An San Suki's father demanded

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Speaker 1: that Britain grant him and his fellow Burmese people independence

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Speaker 1: if they fought for the Allies. The British refused. An

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Speaker 1: San then went first to China and eventually Japan for support,

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Speaker 1: and eventually he fought against the British with his Burmer

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Speaker 1: Independence Army. But after two years of occupation, a Stan

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Speaker 1: and his comrades changed sides under a broad alliance called

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Speaker 1: the Anti Fascist organization. They turned on the Japanese and

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Speaker 1: they once again took up arms to liberate their country.

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Speaker 1: On the fourth of January, Burma became an independent republic.

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Speaker 1: The new republic's territory combined three British territories and over

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Speaker 1: a hundred distinct ethnic groups. For the next fourteen years,

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Speaker 1: these groups struggled to find a democratic Burma and an

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Speaker 1: identity for themselves within it. Mostly they failed. The period

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Speaker 1: was characterized by the Chinese Civil War spilling it to Burma,

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Speaker 1: ethnic arm insurgencies and repeated demands for a federal republic

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Speaker 1: with a weak central government into the military. A rate

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Speaker 1: at new demands for a federal republic stage to cop

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Speaker 1: Burma spent the next twenty two years under the military

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Speaker 1: rule of a council, pursuing what they called the Burmese

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Speaker 1: Way to socialism. Burma's planned economy left it largely isolated

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Speaker 1: from the rest of the world home the press was censored,

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Speaker 1: and a type of nationalism that combined nominal socialism and

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Speaker 1: Burman ethnic identity became the official state ideology. During this period,

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Speaker 1: Burma became one of the world's poorest countries. Sporadic protests

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Speaker 1: were met with overwhelming force and the eighths of August

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Speaker 1: and uprising began. It started among a students in Yangon,

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Speaker 1: but it took real quickly around the country. The so

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Speaker 1: called eight eight Uprising because of the date, began with

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Speaker 1: the general strike and huge nor violent protests. These were

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Speaker 1: met with gunfire. Protesters fought back with Molotov cocktails and rocks.

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Speaker 1: The military fired to hospitals, and by September eighteen they

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Speaker 1: launched a coup to take the country from a one

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Speaker 1: party state back to a military dictatorship. It was throing

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Speaker 1: these protests on San Suki, the Daughter of Independence. Here

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Speaker 1: a son emerged as a national figurehead, especially in the West. Amato.

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Speaker 1: The Indian writer wrote the following about eight across Burma,

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Speaker 1: people poured out in thousands to join the protests, not

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Speaker 1: just students, but also teaches, monks, children, professionals and trade

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Speaker 1: unionists of every ship. It was on this day, too,

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Speaker 1: that the Hunter made its first determined attempt at repression.

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Speaker 1: Soldiers opened fire on the demonstrators and hundreds of unarmed

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Speaker 1: marches were killed. The killings continued for a week, but

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Speaker 1: still the demonstrators continued to flood the streets. After the

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Speaker 1: uprising had been suppressed. Multiparty elections were later held, while

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Speaker 1: the new National League for Democracy party of Ang Song

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Speaker 1: Suki won the most votes. The hunter used to see power.

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Speaker 1: Protests continued off and on for decades, with the two

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Speaker 1: thousand seven Saffron Revolution, which the government violently cracked down

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Speaker 1: on monks, resulting in the most international condemnation. Following the

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Speaker 1: Saffron Revolution, the government's isolationism hindering aid after extensive cyclone damage.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, the military government finally implemented

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Speaker 1: the roadmap to discipline flourishing democracy that had developed in

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Speaker 1: If you're wondering about the name of the country, this

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Speaker 1: officially changed in as well, but like much of the

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Speaker 1: nation's history, a grand proclamation from the government didn't mean

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Speaker 1: much on the ground. Both words derived from Baranma, a

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Speaker 1: name that the majority ethnic group who we're calling Burman

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Speaker 1: here used for themselves. Many opposition groups still use Burma

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Speaker 1: instead of Myanma. It's another small way of saying no

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Speaker 1: to the military's attempt to control every aspect of their lives. Finally,

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Speaker 1: on the eighteenth of September, the army took to the

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Speaker 1: streets and the coup led by their Chief of Staff,

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Speaker 1: General Sormon. The next day the killings began again. Yeah

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Speaker 1: The army later described these people as lutas. It was

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Speaker 1: not until two thousand eleven that the military junta finally

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Speaker 1: stepped down and passed on power to the Union, Solidarity

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Speaker 1: and Development Party in an election that was widely seen

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Speaker 1: as fraudulent. A year later on Sen su Chi was released,

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Speaker 1: and by two thousand fifteen her National League for Democracy

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Speaker 1: won an absolute majority. While she was barred from holding

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Speaker 1: the presidential office, she took on the role of State counselor,

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Speaker 1: and Myanmar entered a period of liberalization, which, although never

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Speaker 1: the federal democracy promised when the country gained its independence

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Speaker 1: in n seven, allowed for significant freedoms of communication and speech,

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Speaker 1: especially for the Burman majority ethnic group. Not everyone was

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Speaker 1: reconciled to the change. Many of myanmars a hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty five ethnic groups feel marginalized by the state, which

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Speaker 1: tends to be dominated by the Burman ethnicity. Some of

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Speaker 1: these groups have armed insurgent wings, often more than one

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Speaker 1: per ethnic group, as they disagree on politics or religion.

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Speaker 1: These groups have fought various Burmese governments since the nineteen forties,

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Speaker 1: but many of them reached a ceasefire with the government

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Speaker 1: as the country passed from military to civilian rule. One group, however,

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Speaker 1: saw a huge uptick in violence. The Rohinga ethnic group

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Speaker 1: have been persecuted by Buddhist nationals since the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: but the campaign against them increased in violence and scale

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Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen, when the toatmah Dau began a

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Speaker 1: huge crackdown against Rohinga people in Rakin State. The persecution

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Speaker 1: began in response to attacks by the Arkan Rohingas Salvation

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Speaker 1: Army on Burmese border outposts, but the campaign that followed

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Speaker 1: had nothing to do with the small insurgent group and

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Speaker 1: a lot to do with the desire of the Totma

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Speaker 1: Daw to destroy or drive out all Rohinga people, who

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Speaker 1: they claim are undocumented migrants from Bangladesh and not citizens

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Speaker 1: of Myanmar. While the world praised Suki, her government looked

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Speaker 1: the other way as the military carried out a genocide

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Speaker 1: that displaced over a million people and killed tens of thousands.

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Speaker 1: It was in the context of growing international condemnation of

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Speaker 1: the genocide that Myanmar went to the polls in November

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Speaker 1: of The November twenty election was only the nation's second

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Speaker 1: since the official end of military rule. On San su

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Speaker 1: Chi's National League for Democracy won a resounding victory. The

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Speaker 1: military backed Union Solidarity and Development Party holds twenty five

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Speaker 1: percent of seats under a constitution that SUCHI wanted to change.

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Speaker 1: It didn't take defeat well. The election was neither perfectly

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Speaker 1: free nor fair. The Rohinga have been almost wholly disenfranchised.

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Speaker 1: The government claims they are illegal immigrants from Bangladesh and

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Speaker 1: thus unable to vote. Areas with ethnic armed organizations which

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Speaker 1: opposed the government often had poles canceled and in had

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Speaker 1: cut off. According to Human Rights Watch, The Carter Center

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Speaker 1: estimates that one point four million citizens couldn't vote. The

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Speaker 1: one opposition party that was certainly not short changed was

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Speaker 1: the military's. However, it was the Union Solidarity and Development

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Speaker 1: Party U s d P, which had been calling for

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Speaker 1: election delays due to COVID before polls opened. Once the

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Speaker 1: elections concluded, they immediately began questioning the results. They continued

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Speaker 1: to attempt to undermine the vote for months before they

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Speaker 1: resorted to force on the first of February, the day

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Speaker 1: before the newly elected legislators were due to be sworn

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Speaker 1: in the world largely ignored the situation, apart from the

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Speaker 1: one viral video where a masked fitness instructor dances in

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Speaker 1: the foreground as a PCs rolled through a roadblock and

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Speaker 1: into the parliament complex behind her. On Sang Suchi was arrested,

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Speaker 1: charged with breaching COVID nineteen restrictions and illegally importing a

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Speaker 1: walkie talkie, and General min On Lang was installed at

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Speaker 1: the head of a military junta. If this sounds a

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Speaker 1: little like a stop the Steel antasy, and that's because

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Speaker 1: it is erily similar to one. Myanmar's democracy is not

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Speaker 1: what academics call a consolidated one, which is to say

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Speaker 1: that democracy has never been the only game in town there,

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Speaker 1: but the United States seems to be rapidly deconsolidating its

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Speaker 1: own democracy. The allegations of election fraud and Meanmar were

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Speaker 1: no more credible than those in Arizona. However, the military's

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Speaker 1: tradition of political engagement there removed many of the barriers

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Speaker 1: in between electoral defeat and the death of a short

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Speaker 1: lived democracy. Within twenty four hours of the coup, the

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Speaker 1: people of Mianmar had fought back health care workers and

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Speaker 1: civil servants were on strike by February third, and a

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Speaker 1: boycott of Junta owned businesses had begun. Protests began with

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Speaker 1: a handful of people. The memories of massacres of pro

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Speaker 1: democracy protesters in the nineteen eighties kept many away, but

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Speaker 1: a younger generation who had grown up with relative liberty,

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Speaker 1: internet access and basic freedoms had not seen blood in

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Speaker 1: the streets like their parents. They had seen activists in

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Speaker 1: Hong Kong, the USA, and Ukraine take on violent state apparatuses,

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Speaker 1: and they often seen them win. By the six of

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Speaker 1: February twenty people in the streets of Yangon, the largest city,

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Speaker 1: and the Internet was shut down. Nationwide. Protests began peacefully

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Speaker 1: with memorable signs like my eggs is bad, but the

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Speaker 1: military is worse, and we are protesting peacefully, but with

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Speaker 1: the W a P capitalized, so it said whack. These

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Speaker 1: signs were designed by generation of kids who grew up

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Speaker 1: with access to the Internet to attract international attention. Despite

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Speaker 1: the ban. They used VPNs to shore im due to

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Speaker 1: their struggle. One sign read you've messed with the wrong generation.

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Speaker 1: Now will never be allowed to ruin our own lives.

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Speaker 1: The tap the door, showed his cards. Pretty quickly, police

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Speaker 1: began a suppression with sling shots and clubs, then tear

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Speaker 1: gas and flash brag, and quickly they moved to rifles

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Speaker 1: and rocket papel grenades. By the ninth of February, my

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Speaker 1: way Way, a twenty year old woman have been shot

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Speaker 1: in the street. Soon those young protesters have switched signs

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Speaker 1: for shields by the mid march on m forty this day,

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Speaker 1: a hundred and fourteen civilians were killed in a single day,

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Speaker 1: including sixty five in Yangon who were kettled by police,

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Speaker 1: surrounded and then shot Quickly, shield walls were set up.

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Speaker 1: Medics identified themselves in the protest movement, and hard hats

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Speaker 1: and goggles were distributed, but this didn't hip the balance

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Speaker 1: of power in their favor. So all In, a former

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Speaker 1: student union leader, was there from the start. In the

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Speaker 1: text message, he told me I did not miss a

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Speaker 1: single day as a member of the KaiA State National

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Speaker 1: Strike Committee. I later became more involved in anti authoritarian protests.

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Speaker 1: In the early protests, you see him in photos walking

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Speaker 1: in the front of the group carrying flags and banners

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Speaker 1: with his student I D card on a lanyard around

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Speaker 1: his neck. But by March he's wearing a black shirt,

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Speaker 1: goggles and a hard construction hat. Meanwhile, the National League

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Speaker 1: for Democracy politicians who had escaped attention joined other parties

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Speaker 1: and set up a National Unity Government in April. The

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Speaker 1: National Unity Government contained members of the National League for Democracy,

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Speaker 1: but significantly her Anger activists was appointed and advised with

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Speaker 1: the Ministry of Human Rights, and the National Unity Government

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Speaker 1: has announced it would for the first time accept the

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Speaker 1: jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court with respect to all

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Speaker 1: international crimes committed in Myanmar since two thousand and two.

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Speaker 1: This would include the Ring genocide. By May, both the

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Speaker 1: National Unity Government as well in her to realize that

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Speaker 1: no amount of non violent protests was going through this

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Speaker 1: large regime that was happy to gun down kids in

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Speaker 1: the street, So on the fifth of May he left

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Speaker 1: for the jungle. That same day, the National Unity Government

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Speaker 1: announced the formation of the People's Defense Force or PDF.

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Speaker 1: Within a month, eight hundred soldiers had affected to these

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Speaker 1: pro democracy guerilla units. Many put their guns with them.

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Speaker 1: That's what didn't join the PDF. Instead, he joined one

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Speaker 1: of me and Mar's many ethnic armed organizations groups opposed

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Speaker 1: to the central state and its domination by the Burman ethnicity.

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Speaker 1: To understand these groups, you need to understand that me

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Speaker 1: and Mar is composed of dozens, not hundreds, of ethnic groups,

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Speaker 1: but that the Burman, who make up about two thirds

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Speaker 1: of the population, have always controlled the state and used

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Speaker 1: it as a tool in furthering their interest. Some of

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Speaker 1: these groups, like the current National Liberation Army and the

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Speaker 1: Kachin Independence Army, have been fighting for decades since the

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Speaker 1: country emerged from British colonial rule at the end of

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Speaker 1: World War Two. All of these groups draw on a

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Speaker 1: combination of ethnic and police to go grievances. Many of

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Speaker 1: them adminished to semi autonomous territories like the Kuran State.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand thirteen, thirteen ethnic Armed Organizations or e

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Speaker 1: a o s came together to form the Nationwide Ceasefire

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Speaker 1: Coordinating Team in c CT and signed an eleven point

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Speaker 1: Common Position of Ethnic Resistance Organizations on National Ceasefire, or

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Speaker 1: the LISA Agreement. Most of them seemed to agree that

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Speaker 1: they would accept a federal system rather than complete autonomy.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand fifteen, a ceasefire was signed, but conflict

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Speaker 1: between ethnic armed organizations and between e a o's and

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Speaker 1: the government continued. Since the coup began, EO membership has skyrocketed,

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Speaker 1: and in October the National Unity Government announced alliances with

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Speaker 1: several groups under a central chain of command. Some political

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Speaker 1: organizations who played a part in the nineteen eighty eight uprising,

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Speaker 1: like the All Burma Students Democratic Front, have been revived

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Speaker 1: as armed groups. The a B s DF recently attacked

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Speaker 1: Tautama Dagh ships using an RPG. Attacks on military basis

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Speaker 1: have also stepped up. PDF units have ambushed and killed

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Speaker 1: policemen and raided police and military outposts. Each time they do,

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Speaker 1: they steal valuable weapons and ammunition. The top MEDAU has

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Speaker 1: responded with shellings and air strikes against residential areas, executions,

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Speaker 1: mass physical retribution and the murdering of civilians and aid

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Speaker 1: workers and burning of their bodies. As a result of

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Speaker 1: all this, ethnic armed organizations have joined forces with anti

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Speaker 1: authoritarian Berman people under the auspices of the People's Defense Forces,

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Speaker 1: which are under the command of the exiled National Unity Government.

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Speaker 1: We have never experienced such kind of brutalities from the

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Speaker 1: military as well as a strong resistance from the people.

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Speaker 1: They try to make sure the whole country submit to them,

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Speaker 1: but we still refuse to allow them to be our rulers.

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Speaker 1: This defiance has led to the formation of the People's

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Speaker 1: Defense Forces or PDF, a coalition of thousands of resistance

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Speaker 1: fighters were carrying out surprise attacks on Hunter checkpoints, bombing

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Speaker 1: army convoys, and supporting ethnic armies in their fight against

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Speaker 1: the regime. Twelve months ago, these men and women were

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Speaker 1: students and office workers protesting the coup. Today they're training

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Speaker 1: to overthrow the military. Bennesota is the tough choice, but

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Speaker 1: the young people um they are ready to defend the community.

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Speaker 1: They have to, of course, sacrifice their own daily life,

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Speaker 1: ordinary life. Since March of the influx of new recruits

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Speaker 1: has changed these groups. Generation Z militias like the Karinni

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Speaker 1: gin Z Liberation Army have sprung up, founded by kids

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Speaker 1: who were holding memable signs at protests just a few

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Speaker 1: months earlier. They care less about ethnic independence and more

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Speaker 1: about beating the junta. Many Burman kids join these groups.

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Speaker 1: These organizations of young fighters received training from the experienced

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Speaker 1: guerillas hiding in the jungle, but they tended to adopt

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Speaker 1: a less top down military structure and armed themselves by

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Speaker 1: scavenging whatever weapons they could find, often twenty two caliber

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Speaker 1: rifles better suited to shooting squirrels than soldiers. It was

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Speaker 1: these kids who grew up online and knew that there

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Speaker 1: was nothing you couldn't learn about on Reddit who tipped

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Speaker 1: the balance of force away from the state. Unlike the

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Speaker 1: ethnic armed organizations and other more experienced guerrillas in Myanmar,

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Speaker 1: these kids have little military experience. Their organizations have few

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Speaker 1: rules and regulations. They're made up entirely of young people.

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Speaker 1: As a result, there are certain things that they're less

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Speaker 1: proficient at, but they're much better at things like grasping

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Speaker 1: the use of new technologies, which has led to my

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Speaker 1: Anmar being the first country in the world where three

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00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 1: D printed weapons have taken part in a revolution against

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Speaker 1: the government. We're going to hear more about that and

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Speaker 1: many other things as this series continues. Hey everybody, I'm

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans and this is me an mar printing the

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Speaker 1: Revolution Part two. Since the dawn of firearms, regular people

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Speaker 1: all over the world have had the same basic idea,

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Speaker 1: maybe if I made myself a gun, the government wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be able to be such a dick to me. Historically,

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Speaker 1: this has had little impact on the willingness of governments

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Speaker 1: to be dicks to people. In the beginning, all gun

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Speaker 1: manufacturing was done by individual artisans, and thus making a

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Speaker 1: gun in your home was really no different from making

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Speaker 1: it in a shop as long as you had the

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Speaker 1: proper tools. Guns in this period weren't super useful on

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Speaker 1: their own, and we're best fired in a volley by

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Speaker 1: a shipload of dudes at once. Since individual firearms were

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Speaker 1: extremely inaccurate and cumbersome to use, the fact that some

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Speaker 1: poor blacksmith could make himself one wasn't much of a

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00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 1: threat to anybody in power. It did mean that battlefield

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Speaker 1: prowess came from large blocks of trained soldiers, not fudel

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Speaker 1: lords on horseback rallying untrained peasants. This change in technology

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Speaker 1: led to a change in warfare and helped to change society.

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Speaker 1: As firearms evolved and became these central weapons of battle,

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Speaker 1: they required more intense tooling and more expensive manufacturing capacity.

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Speaker 1: Nations and peoples without the know how or infrastructure were

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Speaker 1: at a tremendous disadvantage. As soon as this situation came

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Speaker 1: into being, these unfortunate communities set to work finding ways

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Speaker 1: to gain the advantages of firearms without the manufacturing capacity

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00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 1: their foes enjoyed indigenous cannons and regions resisting imperialism often

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Speaker 1: consisted of composite materials less sturdy than bronze or iron.

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Speaker 1: In the sixteen hundreds and seventeen hundreds, Indigenous Americans in

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Speaker 1: South America used wooden cannons to fight against Spanish and

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Speaker 1: Portuguese conquerors. The Vietnamese used wooden cannons to resist the

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Speaker 1: French during the Coach in China campaign of eighteen sixty two.

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Speaker 1: American Indians used wooden artillery to blast settler fortifications in

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Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds. In the months that

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Speaker 1: led up to the outbreak of the Revolutionary War, the

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Speaker 1: men who fought to create the United States busied themselves

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Speaker 1: building rifles and cannons in their homes and communities to

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Speaker 1: resist the English. This trend has never really stopped in warfare.

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Speaker 1: The day before we recorded this, James, my partner in

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00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: this series, sent me a screen grab from a live

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Speaker 1: stream of someone in Ukraine printing pieces for a K

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Speaker 1: forty seven's on a three D printer. Firearms manufactured outside

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Speaker 1: the arms industry have played a role in every conflict

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Speaker 1: of the modern era. But as you've probably guessed they

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00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 1: have had the greatest influence in the little wars of colonialism.

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00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: European nations rarely allowed any sort of firearms ownership in

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Speaker 1: their colonies, except the individuals and ethnic groups that adopted

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Speaker 1: its local enforces. Since most of these places had never

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Speaker 1: developed their own industrial base for arms industry, colonial rebellions

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Speaker 1: often relied on homemade weapons in their early stages, along

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Speaker 1: with modern firearms pilf by deserting local soldiers. Where domestic

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00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,239
Speaker 1: productive capacity existed, European colonizing nations went out of their

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00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: way to relocate it, along with the profit it generated

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00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: to the metropol All were reflected on this in his

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00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: novel Burmese Days, saying in the eighteenth century, the Indians

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Speaker 1: cast guns that are at any rate up to the

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Speaker 1: European standard. Now, after we've been in India a hundred

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00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: and fifty years, you can't make so much as the

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00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: brass cartridge case in the whole continent. Meanwhile, among the colonizers,

402
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: being armed became almost a synonym for being a man.

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00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: This was particularly true for the colonial police forces and militaries,

404
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 1: but it was also true domestically. Most people are broadly

405
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: familiar with the US Second Amendment the robust gun culture

406
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 1: that it spawned, but during the higher colonialism, English citizens

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00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: are also free to arm themselves. In Prime Minister Robert Gascoigne,

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00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: Cecil Marquis of Salisbury, gave a speech and we she

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Speaker 1: claimed he would laud the day when there was a

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00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: rifle in every cottage. In England, firearms were utterly unrestricted

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Speaker 1: at this point. The first chaine to this came in

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Speaker 1: with the first Law that required a permit to carry

413
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Speaker 1: a handgun and restricted children from buying guns. Still, firearms

414
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: were widely available until a red panic gripped the nation

415
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: in following the ball strict revolution in Russia. Across the

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Speaker 1: ocean in Spain, where firearms ownership was less strictly restricted,

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00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: where all Well himself would learn what it was to

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Speaker 1: fire a rifle at someone who shot back. Arm unions

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00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: and working people served as the only bullwalk to a

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00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: military coup in ninety six in Madrid, one officer opened

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Speaker 1: his armory to the Union militias, but another refused to

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Speaker 1: hand over for the bolts for the guns they had

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00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: been issued. The Barcelona, where the anarchists left, had a

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00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: long tradition of armed political violence. The coup was repelled

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00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: by workers with guns and a general leading troops there

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00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: was imprisoned and executed. The same pattern played out all

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00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 1: across the country in July ninety six, when the military

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00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: rose up to topple the elected government. In the cities

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Speaker 1: where the government opened the armories to the people, the

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Speaker 1: coup was repelled. In the cities where the government did not,

431
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: the coup succeeded. Reflecting on this in nineteen forty one

432
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: or worldwide, the totalitarian states can do great things, but

433
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: there is one thing they cannot do. They cannot give

434
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: the factory worker a rifle and tell him to take

435
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: it home to keep it in his bedroom. That rifle

436
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class

437
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: flat is a symbol of democracy. It's a job to

438
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: see that its stays there, despite orwell's please. The years

439
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: that followed the Second World War led to greater restrictions

440
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 1: of the ability of the public to arm itself. By

441
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, carrying any weapon for self defense was illegal.

442
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: Semi automatic center fire arms were banned in nineteen eighty eight,

443
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: and pistols were banned in nineteen ninety six. After a

444
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: mass shooting killed sixteen children in Dunblane. This was all

445
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: utterly infuriating to a man named Philip A. Looty. Loody,

446
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: born in nineteen sixty five grew up on a farm

447
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: in West Yorkshire, England. We don't have a tremendous amount

448
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: of detail about his upbringing, but by the time he

449
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: was in his early thirties he'd become a committed crusader

450
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: for an unrestricted right to bear arms. A skilled machinist

451
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: with a well equipped shop, Loody began the long process

452
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: of learning how to craft homemade firearms. Soon he was

453
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: building semi and fully automatic weapons. Now these were not

454
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: military grade firearms. The barrels were unrifled, which made them

455
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: terribly inaccurate, but every piece could be crafted from widely

456
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: available things like sheet metal, washers and screws. The person

457
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: assembling a Looty gun would need to be a skilled craftsman,

458
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: but they would not need access to welding rigs, forges,

459
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: or rather expensive industrial equipment. Looty published a book Expedient

460
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: Homemade Firearms the nine millimeter Submachine Gun in ninete through

461
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: Paladin Press. In the late nineteen nineties, Paladin was one

462
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,479
Speaker 1: of the places you could go to mail order fringe

463
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: political literature and guides for stuff like trapping human beings

464
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: or disabling the drive system of an Abram's tank. In

465
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: the United States, nothing about Ludy's book was or is illegal,

466
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: but Phil didn't live in the United States. He was

467
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: arrested several times, starting in the late nineteen nineties when

468
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 1: a pair of illegal home built guns were found on

469
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: his property. Ludy spent the rest of his life, which

470
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: ended in two thousand eleven, operating a website where he

471
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: raged against gun control. His main argument was that England

472
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: was headed for totalitarianism, and like Orwell, he believed only

473
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: public ownership of arms could prevent this. Unlike Orwell, Ludy

474
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: was firmly on the right wing. He traced society's problems

475
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: to quote a combination of political correctness and anti freedom

476
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: of speech laws, legislation governing how we speak about such

477
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: subjects as religion or a person's race being just two examples.

478
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: Words and phrases that have been used for centuries without

479
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: malice are now insipid in people's mouths and said to

480
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: cause offense by those very same speech police, who, on

481
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: the other hand turned a blind eye to the violence,

482
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: foul language, and sexual references blasted daily through our TV sets,

483
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: a phenomenon that really does cause offense to many people.

484
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: Loody never succeeded in sparking a renaissance in civilian arms

485
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: ownership in the UK, but his ideas were adopted by

486
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: organized criminal groups all around the world. In Brazil, looty

487
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: guns can go for as much as twenty five hundred dollars.

488
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: From two thousand eleven to two thousand twelve, nearly half

489
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: of the submachine guns seized by police and salpolo were homemade.

490
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 1: Most of these arms were certainly used as tools by

491
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: drug dealers or other gangsters, but some of them were

492
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: surely also the tools of citizens who simply sought a

493
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: way to defend themselves in a place with no real

494
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: rule of law. Looty guns have long been popular among

495
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: mootor cycle gangs in Australia, and in October of two

496
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: thousand nineteen, a fascist terrorist carried out the last of

497
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: that year's eight chan shootings in Halla, Germany with a

498
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: looty gun. His weapons, thankfully did not work well. As

499
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: a general rule, looty guns were never going to be

500
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: of much use to anyone besides organized criminals. They aren't

501
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: great in a gunfight, but you can use them to

502
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: spray bullets into a room or a vehicle at close

503
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: range pretty well. The year after Phil Looty died two

504
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: thousand twelve, a fellow named Cody Wilson decided to carry

505
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: on his work. Cody felt three D printing carried the

506
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: possibility of eventually manufacturing arms of equality that might rival

507
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: traditionally produced guns. He started simple with a single shot

508
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: three eighty handgun based around the old Liberator pistol from

509
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: World War Two. The Liberator had been a single shot

510
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,959
Speaker 1: forty five caliber handgun meant to be dropped into Nazi

511
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: occupied territories and used by insurgents to stealthily kill single

512
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: German soldiers and take their guns. Cody Wilson described himself

513
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: as a crypto anarchist, and when his ideas began to

514
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: draw attention, he dropped out of law school to create

515
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: Defense Distributed. This organization was dedicated to the development and

516
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: distribution of plans to craft three D printed weapons. It

517
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: used a platform called deaf CAD to allow users to

518
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: develop and share blueprints. In two thousand and thirteen, the

519
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: first CAD gun file became available online to everyone. It

520
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: was downloaded more than a hundred thousand times in two days.

521
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: I'd like to quote now from an article on the

522
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: website three D Natives. This prompted the US government to

523
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: demand that Defense Distributed removed the file from their site.

524
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: What followed as a legal battle between Cody Wilson and

525
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: the U S government, consisting of back and forth lawsuits.

526
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: It lasted five years until in two thousand eighteen, the

527
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: Trump administration legalized three D printed guns. The same year,

528
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: Wilson was charged with sexual assault of an underage girl

529
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: and had to step down from Defense Distributed. Nonetheless, the

530
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: organization did not cease to exist without Cody. Today, for

531
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: a yearly fee if fifty dollars, users of the Deaf

532
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: CAD website can access the files containing different designs of

533
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: three D printed guns. And I should note here that

534
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: it's probably more accurate to say the Trump administration legalized

535
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: sharing the plans and printing the files and whatnot of

536
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: three D printed guns, not legalized three D printed guns.

537
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: Homemade firearms have been federally legal in the United States

538
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: since forever. The fighting in the courts over all. This

539
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: has continued ever since, and in two thousand nineteen, a

540
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: federal judge and Seattle temporarily blocked DEAFCAD. This sparked the

541
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: creation of a new group, Deterrence Dispensed, which was even

542
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: less centralized. The basic idea was that this would make

543
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: them harder to take down via lawsuits or police action.

544
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: Not stated was that this might also protect their reputation

545
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: from a Cody Wilson situation. The debate over the legality

546
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: of three D printed firearm plans continues on to the

547
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: present day, but the development of these arms has continued

548
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: at an ever faster pace. The best modern three D

549
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: printed arms can even rival conventional guns. It's worth emphasizing

550
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: that these are not purely class the tools. The Liberator

551
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: pistol used a metal nail, and the better three D

552
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: arms have metal barrels rifled using other craft methods that

553
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: require some nohow, but arguably less than it took to

554
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: manufacture a looty gun. Three D printed arms have been

555
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: confiscated by police around the world, but in recent months

556
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: they've begun to crop up somewhere new in the arms

557
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: of revolutionaries fighting against a military coup. Me and Ma

558
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: Burman before that has adversively strict gun control laws for decades.

559
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: When Georgie Orwell was a policeman there in the ninet twenties,

560
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: he may have carried a gun, but the people he

561
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: was policing did not. In the nineteen thirties, the British

562
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: leaders allowed tact organizations similar to militias to form and drill,

563
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: but they weren't allowed to carry guns. Gun licenses under

564
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: the dictatorship were issued primarily to party members, but most

565
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: revoked after failed pro Democian uprising. The only civilians who

566
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: were permitted to un armed with the Chin, the nation's

567
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: poorest ethnic group who rely on guns to hunt for food.

568
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: In many cases, these guns were flintlocks that would not

569
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: have looked that out of place in a battlefield two

570
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: centuries before. In practice, though, things are very different. The

571
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: current conflict is best seen as a flare up in

572
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 1: violence has been ongoing since Britain left the country in

573
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: ninety seven. The Tapma door has consistently used violence against

574
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: marginalized ethnic groups in the country, and they have consistently

575
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: taken up arms in response. But unlike civil wars in

576
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: the Middle East, wealthy nations in the West have not

577
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: been flooding me and male with weapons for decades, and

578
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: the various E A O s or ethnic armed organizations

579
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: have had to turn to much more unorthodox routes to

580
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: arm and equip themselves against the government. To get a

581
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 1: better idea of what things are like on the ground,

582
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: we spoke to Pierre. He's French, but he's a serial

583
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: volunteer with national liberation struggles around the world and fought

584
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 1: with the Karen people in the early two thousands. Yes,

585
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: or the ammunition is a constant problem. The shortage is

586
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: absolutely permanent. And yes, there is two sources for the

587
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: for the for the weapons, there is the black market,

588
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: and the prices, especially of ammunition, are prohibitive. This is

589
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: why I would like to have my notebook here with me,

590
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,959
Speaker 1: because I think I wrote down the conversation I had

591
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: with some leaders of the kind of at the time

592
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: asking them why we didn't do more persons, Well, like,

593
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: we just can't afford it. Uh you know, Uh, we

594
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: just can't afford it. Like strictly we we don't. We

595
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: we don't have enough ammunition to do any kind of

596
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: uh of operation we need to. So all the operations

597
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: we did. Were always focused on if we could catch

598
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: you of some ammunition, if we could get you like weapons,

599
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: but especially immunition. Yeah, so there is you know, that's

600
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: that's the second source of of course of uh of weapon.

601
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: Uh let's say source is the is the captures of course,

602
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: then the black market. The black market used to be

603
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: huge in Cambodia. I don't know what's the situation now.

604
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: It was in the nineties. It was it was a

605
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: bit of the Albania of some Systeia at this time, right.

606
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: And so there is also the other ethnic groups that

607
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: received sometime say a lot of uh of of arms

608
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: and ammunition from sponsors, uh like some of them like

609
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: the West Townies our sponsor of China. So like the

610
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: supply of ammunition, it's pretty good of of weapons. I

611
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: think it's even now that cartigo and stuff. Um. Then

612
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 1: there is also groups that also produced locally quite good

613
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: their own on arms, light arms usually. So yeah, these

614
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: are the different sources of welcomes the okay in in

615
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: the time I was there. In the early weeks of

616
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: the protests, once it a claim clear that non violent

617
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: demonstrators were going to be met with state violence, protesters

618
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: began to fashion weapons. First, they thought soldiers with the

619
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: sault rifles using catapults and bows and arrows. It was

620
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: incredibly brave, but it wasn't very effective. By the twenty

621
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: eight to March, protesters are taken a step. First, a

622
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: group calling itself the Clay Civil Army set up barricade

623
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: and defended them using pressurized air rifles that fired marbles

624
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 1: and bicycle wheelbearings. The rifles all used the same design

625
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: and the same components. They were based on a video

626
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: someone found on YouTube, but they weren't lethal. They helped

627
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: protesters defend their space, albeit at great cost. In that

628
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: first clash, four protesters and four soldiers were killed. The

629
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: protesters in Calais were able to hold out a few

630
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: days using old hunting rifles and air guns. The ambush

631
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: military patrols and they took four police hostage. Then they

632
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: exchanged them for nine incarcerated protesters. But nearly April, the

633
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 1: Tapmador returned to the protest camp in Calais with rocket

634
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: propelled grenades and machine guns and killed eleven people. We

635
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: must fight back against them. If not, our generation will

636
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: face a worse situation than us. They have no laws,

637
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: a neighborhood villager who battled the regime's forces told the

638
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: irra Wady, a local paper, the air guns spread around

639
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 1: the country quickly to avoid surveillance. Protesters talked about cooking

640
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: up veryanny on telegram channels, and what they meant was

641
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: desperately scouring the internet for a way to fight back

642
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: and finding a way to make an air rifle out

643
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: of a beautane canister, a pipe and a cigarette lighter,

644
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: combined with fireworks and smoke bombs made of potassium nitrate.

645
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: The air rifle gave protest is just enough cupboard to

646
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: escape police charges, but they also gave the hunter an

647
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: excuse to further escalate the violence. Attitudes are hardening among

648
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: the protesters too. In Mandalay, they took air rifles to

649
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: the barricades on Saturday, hardly a match for the weapons

650
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: of war they face, but now they know this is

651
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: a fight to the death and more destruction. After a

652
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: fire raged and Pgdalgon township overnight, people living there but

653
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: kept away by security forces returned to find sixty homes

654
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: burned to the ground. Now all they can do is

655
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: pick through the ashes, trying to save anything from the

656
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: military's policy of scorched Even the Tatmadau makes its own weapons,

657
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: a highly unusual move for a relatively small nation. Totmadaw

658
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: troops and police can be seen with a bewildering array

659
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: of indigenously produced copies of HIM sixteen s ouzies and

660
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: even five five six Galil pattern A K style rifles,

661
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: as well as in three light machine guns, which are

662
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: slightly updated copies of the MG forty two used by

663
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,959
Speaker 1: the Nazis in World War Two. After the failed eight

664
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: eight eight eight uprisings in Night, the military offered concessions

665
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 1: to China and return for more advanced weapons. They got them,

666
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: but it didn't stop China from also supplying ethnic armed organizations.

667
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: E a o s don't have access to the same

668
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: munitions factories that the government does, but there is a

669
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: long tradition of homemade weapons in Myanmar. In more remote

670
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 1: parts of the country, homemade air rifles and shotguns seem

671
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: to have been relatively commonplace before the start of the conflict,

672
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: and they were mostly used for hunting. The country has

673
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: also covered with land mines, which the e a o

674
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 1: S used a great effect against the Topmadaw. We spoke

675
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: to Pierre, a former combatant with the Karin who no

676
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: longer lives in Myanmar. His experience is not that recent,

677
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: but it helps us to understand the way this conflict

678
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 1: has been fought for decades. What we used to produce

679
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: a lot of uhland mines, that's uh that's produced at

680
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: the base. Yes, with like you know, very very lot

681
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: of systems with a little bit of of type of

682
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: plastic explosive cople of bomboom for contactors and like batfield.

683
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: That's it. Pellet guns are not good for combat and

684
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: E A O s mostly relied on weapons imported from Thailand,

685
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: India or China. Overwhelmingly these were a K or In

686
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 1: sixteen pattern rifles. Yeah, mostly in my and the units

687
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: have been U probably majority of a K platforms in

688
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: this time. Yes, yeah, definitely. I mean it's more reliable

689
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: and you know, simple to operate. It's very adapted to

690
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: the to the to the type of it was. It

691
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: was quite correct. I mean you swee from the moment

692
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: that I switched to a case at least because at

693
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: Tost I tried to use this scumperency M sixteen and

694
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: it was a nightmare of malfunctions. So I switched back

695
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: to a case which is the what I best known

696
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: and used, or my idea doesn't have this. I never

697
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 1: really had any any malfunction with the case. Maybe one time.

698
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: It's a faulty lot of communition. But let's see, not

699
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: really the rifles, but the fight pierces has never been

700
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: restrict ript into the battlefield for the top medal violence

701
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: against civilians as part of their four cuts doctrine that

702
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: cuts off funding, food, intelligence, and recruits for the e

703
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: a O. S Now they are moving that same outlook

704
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: to the cities like literally uh literally by by absolutely

705
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: no laws of wow airs. I mean like one of

706
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: the first things that I saw when we went going

707
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: Batrol and in the in the Karen villages, huh around

708
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: the house one of operation is that there was absolutely

709
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: no girl between the age of eleven to the age

710
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: of seventeen. I was like, I asked, you know, my

711
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: my uh commander about it, and he says, yeah, like

712
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: obviously if they if they stay as they will be

713
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: rapped by the model and the first patrol like the

714
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: first times they will will come. You know. So this

715
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: this gives you a little bit of the tone of

716
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: what they are about. They constantly ransome civilians when they

717
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: don't model them like you know, shell villages for no

718
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: reason or because there had been an operation of the

719
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: kind and they take evenge and who they can take

720
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: evenge and the civilians. You know, this is this is

721
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: how the b this is what they are. Basically the

722
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 1: top the doll is a large army and many of

723
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: the conscripts are hardly high speed operator types, but that

724
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: hasn't stopped them from killing thousands of innocent civilians. I

725
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: mean they have as many army defferent units with different

726
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 1: military value. Uh let's say, uh, you know, um many

727
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: times the units that they truck on hilltop in the

728
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: middle of Libel zone are not like the most combative,

729
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: let's say, but sometimes we will get sur highed resistance.

730
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, except of that, when they to uh an

731
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: operation in uh in a place they bring in like

732
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: more elite troops. Let's say. By contrast, the k and

733
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: l A, the Karni National Liberation Army and other e

734
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: aos relied on civilian support to survive. The Canada operates

735
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: in uh in karen H territory, and the civilians are

736
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: Karen I mean pretty much when we when we arrive

737
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: in uh in the village as as medics. You know

738
00:45:54,560 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: that with us that the kind of the population distribute medicine.

739
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: Uh No, like I don't know what it was like

740
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 1: quite uh it's quite a funny acquisition coming from the Totnam.

741
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: This attitude has helped them, Pierre says. And they have

742
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: always been open to noncurrent recruits. First of all, is

743
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: not absolutely not um let's say some kind of ethnicist

744
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: or organization of ethno nationalist like you know, with some

745
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: hate for us, I think, including the Obama echnic group

746
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: that like traditionally you know is the is our the

747
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: leaders of the MODEO that have been oppressing them for

748
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: seventy years. But they have absolutely no resentment. That are

749
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: extremely open to work with the Democrats, democratic forces from

750
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: from every ethnical Yes, since nine, Per said, the K

751
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: and l A had been willing to link up with

752
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: Democratic rebels, providing them with training and shelter in order

753
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: the further their shared goal of a federal and democratic

754
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: country that treated all ethnicities with respect to episode. These

755
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: Obama rebels let's say, uh so trained by the currents

756
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: and so by people I know very well since it

757
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: was my commander then never so I've seen, I've seen

758
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:30,959
Speaker 1: the currents. I've always been extremely accommodating to the Obama opposition,

759
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: meaning the Obama the Man ethnic group. I'd say this

760
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: for me, for people that might not know the difference.

761
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: So and so the currents always had representation and they

762
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:53,240
Speaker 1: took like you know, political refugees, let's say, from from

763
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: inside the Boma in the territories, the control mano close

764
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: I was like the student and association. The exact name

765
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: I contricle right now. But all these are organization of position.

766
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: And so now they keep this tradition by helping the

767
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: UH these new revails of the PDF to get military twinning.

768
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,280
Speaker 1: And yes, by the summer of young people had flooded

769
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: into the jungles, and many of them, even the ones

770
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: of Burman ethnicity, we're fighting alongside the Karen and Krinni rebels.

771
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: They had previously seen as troublemakers and terrorists. Just a

772
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: year or two before we spoke with one of these people,

773
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: Zall Lynn, who left his home in May. There was students, friends,

774
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 1: but also young people from just the neighborhood. Most people

775
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: were just above twenty. A lot of them were single.

776
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: You know, there's women as well, people whom new technology

777
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: young people from UH from the technology computer uh apologists

778
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: why called university. A lot of these people who knew

779
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: modern technology went into the jungle too, go into the

780
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 1: guncle to train and be able to overthrow the men

781
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: online government. So there was it was very tiring. We

782
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 1: had to go up and down on lots of hills.

783
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: It was two days of walking get there, so up

784
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,439
Speaker 1: and down the hills and back down, up and down

785
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: until we got to the training planet. Hey everyone, I'm

786
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 1: Rebert Evans, and welcome to episode three Printing the Revolution.

787
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 1: Here's my partner, James Stout. In the spring and summer

788
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 1: to millions of Americans had versions of the same experience.

789
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: State forces killed the helpless man. Protesters took to the

790
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: streets in anger, and armed agents of the state responded

791
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: with mass violence. A lot of people's lives changed for

792
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: ever and fairly short order. What happened in Me and

793
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: Mara after the military coup was that story turned up

794
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,479
Speaker 1: to eleven within days. The military had used live fire

795
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: and demonstrators or a source for today's episode, were twenty

796
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 1: two years old at the time. He spent his days

797
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: working as delivery driver hang out with his girlfriend playing

798
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: video games. On the day the coup started, he was

799
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: playing pub g after a long shift. Soon he and

800
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: his girlfriend took to the streets with thousands of other

801
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: gen z Burmese kids. The state responded with massacres, often

802
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: firing automatic weapons into the crowds. So all had them

803
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 1: in particularly politically active before this moment. In fact, he

804
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: felt pretty poorly to woods revolutionary, supposing the government in

805
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: the jungle, seeing them as rebellious troublemakers. Um In the past,

806
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: we thought that the military is a group that loves

807
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: all the people and all the different groups in the

808
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 1: in the country, and then there's just a few people

809
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: who really hate the military. But especially after the who

810
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: we face it with our own foreheads, with the guns.

811
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: We can face the evil the military and all the

812
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: human rights and things that people who hated the military

813
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: before we're talking about. We understand it now because we

814
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 1: had to face it ourselves. And then they're gonna tell

815
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 1: us terrorists, and however, must fix all us. We know

816
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: that we're finding for human rights, and we know that

817
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: each person deserves these basic things, you know, So so

818
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: even when we captured a soldier, we don't kill them

819
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 1: immediately as they're unarmed, you know, when they have sure PDF,

820
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 1: they torture and kill them very very horrifically or horrendously,

821
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: and they kill and to hurt all the citizens and

822
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: ordinary bystanders. So for us, what they're calling at rebels before,

823
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: we're not rebels. They're the ones that are rebels, So

824
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: we have to call down rebels. They're the terrorists. But

825
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: as violence against protesters escalated, Zuill began to see through

826
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: the lives he'd been told by the military of his life.

827
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: What we were calling as rebels are what we kind

828
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: of become. But we know why we are now rebels.

829
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:50,879
Speaker 1: That's because of their terrorism. They're oppressive Rejews and their

830
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: violation of human rights. That's why we have to revolt

831
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: against them. For a time, protesters responded creatively with giant

832
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: potato guns meant to fire less lethal protect ours long distances.

833
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 1: These homemade guns will be fired in volleys well. Other

834
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: protests protected them with shields. Some of these tactics were

835
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 1: effective a points, but it quickly became clear that the

836
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 1: government was willing to massacre everyone is standing up to them.

837
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: So his girlfriend and their friends quickly decided that non

838
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: violent resistance wasn't going to work, but they didn't give up.

839
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: As we get onto into June, there's two paths, right,

840
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: we can be normal, we can go on the streets,

841
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,760
Speaker 1: we can ask for the people's power back. And since

842
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: that's not working, we know that what we have to

843
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 1: do is we need to hold these guns. Get these guns.

844
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: And on the military side, all they know is that

845
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: they will solve this by holding guns. So the only thing,

846
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: the only path that's left for us is to take

847
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: those guns for ourselves. So around the end of May

848
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 1: we started entering training school. So the downtour is what

849
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: the word he used, and it's something like this corner

850
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 1: part um so one corner part one to two. So talking,

851
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 1: what that means is that in the funt things, funt

852
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: things that we were doing, hunting rifles that we were

853
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: using for that. So we kind of start started and

854
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 1: we fought at first in Demoso. If we can ask

855
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: the military nicely, then there's no reason for us to

856
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 1: be using guns. But since they don't listen to our

857
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: demands or our requests at all, then the and since

858
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: all we can do all they are saying, all they're

859
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: doing is using the guns and being terrorists trying to

860
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: shoot us. So the only thing that we can do

861
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 1: to get what we need and what we want is

862
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: to take the guns for ourselves. And so, like hundreds

863
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: of people this age, so headed into the jungle in

864
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: May one. The decision wasn't even one or an easy one.

865
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: But after protesting non violently, then meeting state violence with

866
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: community defense, then seeing his peers gunned down in the street,

867
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: he didn't have many of the choices. He'd picked up

868
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: a megaphone, then a shield, and now he was heading

869
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: in the jungle to pick up a rifle. The only

870
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: problem was that there won't any rifles. He left with

871
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 1: his girlfriend and quote with the blessing of his parents.

872
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: Keep that in mind for later. When he first went

873
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: to the jungle, Zall went to a two week training

874
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: camp where the Karinny People's Defense Force taught him the

875
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: basics of guerrilla warfare, but they didn't have enough weapons

876
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: to arm him and his friends. So these gen Z

877
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 1: militants began their fighting careers with twenty two caliber rifles.

878
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: If you weren't a gun person, the twenty two was

879
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: one of the smallest widely available bullets. Like any bullet,

880
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: it can kill, but as a caliber it's better suited

881
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: for shooting rabbits than soldiers. These twenty two rifles were

882
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,760
Speaker 1: handmade locally and only fired one shot at a time.

883
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: But it was those rifles that Zaw, his girlfriend, and

884
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: their friends carried into their first gunfight with the Totmadaw.

885
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 1: After battling like that for about three weeks, the shooting stopped,

886
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: he said in an interview. We conducted over signal. After

887
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: the shooting stopped, we grouped together money to buy arms

888
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: by asking for donations. They were massively outgunned, but determined

889
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: to fight on with the weapons they could make and

890
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: buy on the black market until they could find something better,

891
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: even if that meant taking guns from dead soldiers. The

892
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,399
Speaker 1: military's guns are extremely good, of course, compared to Point

893
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: two two's, he said. We fight with the mindset that

894
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 1: we must win. Our minds are always prepared to take

895
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: their guns when a soldier falls. It's a mindset to

896
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: want the enemy's arms to beat your own arms. You

897
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: need to want to resist injustice because we are fighting

898
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 1: for what is right. We do not get sad even

899
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: if we die. We are happy, even when wounded. We

900
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: no longer care if our arms are matched unevenly now.

901
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,919
Speaker 1: Despite their enthusiasm, PDF units all over the country were

902
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: finding themselves in the same desperate situation. When thousands of

903
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: young people in Mianmar decided to take up arms against

904
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: the government, They're just weren't enough guns to go around.

905
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: A K pattern rifles sell for three thousand dollars on

906
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: the black market, and a RS sell for up to

907
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars. The g d P per capita in

908
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: was just twelve hundred and eighteen dollars and thirty five

909
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: since per person, and unlike militias in Syria and Iraq,

910
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,959
Speaker 1: the pro democracy E a O S and Myanmar don't

911
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: have the benefit questionable benefit of the US flooding the

912
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: region with its fire hose of guns and money. Undeterred,

913
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: Zall and his squad took to YouTube, where they found

914
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: videos explaining how to make two to three caliber bolt

915
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: action rifles. Again, if you're not a gun person, two

916
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: to three may not sound very different than twenty two,

917
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 1: But whereas twenty two is commonly used to shoot squirrels,

918
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: two to three is the standard rifle round more or

919
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: less for the US military. These new bolt action two

920
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: two three's all and his friends were making could not

921
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: match the rate of fire of a modern riot full,

922
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: but they could at least match those rifles in stopping power.

923
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: Once these gen z insurgents had the technique down, they

924
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: created a detailed album on Facebook showing how everything from

925
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 1: the stock to the barrel could be made with pipes, lumber,

926
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 1: and hours and hours of detailed hard work. Unlike their

927
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: guerrilla warfare instructors, these kids had grown up on the

928
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: Internet rather than the jungle, so they knew that if

929
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: it exists, there's a subreddit for it. It was the

930
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 1: Internet that came to their rescue. Three D printed guns

931
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: have been around for a decade, but the early models

932
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: didn't work well and suffered from a pretty bad reputation

933
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: due in part to Cody Wilson, the pedophile libertarian activists

934
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: we discussed last episode. Jake Hanrahan of Popular Front has

935
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 1: covered the printed gun movement extensively. Cody Wilson made his

936
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: whole thing like, I'm the guy with the three D

937
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: print guns, and he was on this moral crusade. The

938
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: three D printed gun lads, particularly Deterrence Dispense. We're like, yeah,

939
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: we don't, we don't give a ship about that we're

940
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 1: just putting our stuff out into the world. Obviously they

941
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: got the right ideas, but they weren't really wedded to

942
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: this idea of being one person. The Turns Dispensed was

943
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: a group of anonymous activists who were more concerned with

944
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 1: making printed guns that worked than making a name for themselves.

945
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: Hanrahan was connected to one activist who used the pseudonym

946
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: Jay Stark, through the group, and after three years of

947
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 1: conversing online, Hanrahan met Stark in Germany to produce a documentary.

948
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 1: Jay Stark died of a heart attack following a police

949
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: raid last year, so we spoke to Hanrahan about Stark's worldview.

950
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: His whole worldview comes from this idea that you know,

951
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 1: it's everybody should have the right to be able to

952
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: fight tyranny. And if you can't fight tyranny, like you're fucked.

953
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: And the way to fight tyranny in the modern era

954
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 1: is firearms. We know that, you know, there's there's no

955
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 1: you can't argue it's that no peaceful march gets rid

956
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: of a fascist dictatorship or whatever. But he he was,

957
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 1: he he was you know, there's some people would say

958
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: he was far right, Some people say it was an anarchist.

959
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: Some people say he was a US patriots. I mean, first,

960
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 1: he wasn't even from America, and he had a lot

961
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,919
Speaker 1: of He liked the laws in America, but he wasn't

962
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 1: like some of the American kind of fan boy or

963
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 1: anything in that sense. He liked the gun lawds. He

964
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: liked the freedom of speech lords, which I do as well.

965
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 1: You know that personally, I I in this country. You know,

966
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: if you tweet the wrong thing, even in jest, like

967
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: police will literally come to your house in Britain, like

968
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: it's happened, it's fucking mental. Um. So yeah, he liked

969
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, um. And I think I think

970
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 1: for him it was he was very tunnel vision, you know,

971
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: he was very tunnel vision. It was just freedom, freedom, freedom,

972
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: And if he said, well what about this, what about that,

973
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 1: he was like, I don't care about that Until the

974
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 1: freedom is there, there's no point looking at anything else.

975
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: And so his brain was always on people that are

976
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: living under tyranny, you know, and it genuinely would. I know,

977
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people, even leftist, particularly leftist had

978
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 1: tried to completely smear him as a white supremacist. They

979
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: were saying, oh, everything he said in that dog that

980
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 1: I made was really it was secret um anti Jewish

981
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: white supremacy. And then it came out that he wasn't

982
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: even white. You know. It's like, very good, very good,

983
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: you fucking idiots. So there was a lot of that

984
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: going around. But I honestly believe that deep down he

985
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 1: was just tunnel vision focused on this idea of every

986
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: until everybody is not living on the tyranny, I must

987
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: go on this mission and okay, if if someone shoots

988
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: up at school with what I've invented, so be it.

989
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 1: You know, which I'm not saying as good, but that

990
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: was just his idea. You know, he was like, so

991
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: be it. Fuck it if I can. You know, he

992
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 1: was very genuine when he was done about the Wagers,

993
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 1: or he was on about the mistreatment of Kurds from Turkey,

994
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: and you know, he was like, look, if we can

995
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 1: build something that can help them, well, sorry that the

996
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 1: West might get funked up because of it, but I'm

997
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: focused on this now. Obviously, in in practice that would

998
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: be chaos probably, but you know, he he just saw

999
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: it the way he saw it, and that was that

1000
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: the cavalier attitude Stark seems to have had how his

1001
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 1: invention might be used is of course worthy of criticism,

1002
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: but the revolutionaries on the ground in Myanmar were not

1003
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 1: concerned with ideological debates over the ethics of homemade firearms.

1004
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: Then did guns and they needed them now. J Starks.

1005
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 1: F GC nine, which stands for Fuck Gun Control nine millimeter,

1006
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: was simple to make, easy to use, and relied entirely

1007
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 1: on parts you could print or buy in any hardware store.

1008
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: In September one, a post popped up on the fosse

1009
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 1: cads subreddit, which is dedicated to the manufacturing of three

1010
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: D printed guns. Stark is a hero there. The post said,

1011
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: wanted to say thanks to this community, the creators of

1012
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: f GC nine and the various mods when we could

1013
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 1: you guys are literally empowering the armed revolution against dictators

1014
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 1: and one of the most underdeveloped countries. We are now

1015
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 1: equipped with f GC nine and starting the armed revolution

1016
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: to the coup leader dictator. As one poster comments, the

1017
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: account quote went from posting about mobile games to how

1018
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 1: to three D print SMG S two, desperately asking people

1019
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: to pay attention what was happening in Myanmar. Then, after

1020
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 1: the f GC nine post, it was deleted entirely. J

1021
01:02:56,640 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: Stark never lived to see this. He would I've loved it.

1022
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 1: What everything that he was doing, that was the main

1023
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: focus in my opinion, that like, it couldn't be a

1024
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: more perfect, like practical actual realization of his project. You

1025
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: couldn't pick a more perfect version of it to happen

1026
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: like that, you know. And there's a lot of talk

1027
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 1: of all where there's a lot of drug dealers in

1028
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: Amsterdam have FGC nines. There was a Natzi recently arrested

1029
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: with one. You know, these people are awful, of course,

1030
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: But the most prevalent use of the f GC nine,

1031
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 1: at least from what I've observed, has been from the

1032
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: rebels in MYRMA making them. I think that I've seen

1033
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 1: like thirty of them so far, you know, that's a

1034
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: lot of them, And there was one was found stashed

1035
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: in a bush. My theory is they're left around for

1036
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: ambush attacks and areas that are not as fully controlled

1037
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: by the rebels. First CAD, a community of mostly US

1038
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 1: based gun printers lost its collective mind, and it didn't

1039
01:03:58,080 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 1: take long for people to make the connection between the

1040
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 1: host and a desperate plight of me and my Spring Revolution.

1041
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: Soon after the post, the tap the Door started posting

1042
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: pictures of f GC nins, often without sights, captured from

1043
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: fighters in Yangon and the one September, the Tapmodor's Ministry

1044
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: of Information released a statement, I'm the ap th way

1045
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: yea mint were found with an f GC nine Mark

1046
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 1: two pistol five rounds of nine millimeter an munition. They

1047
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: were arrested along with their drone. The military alleged they

1048
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 1: were an urban unit from the same generation Ze Freedom

1049
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 1: Army that's all was a part of. That same month,

1050
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 1: the military posted pictures of three more captured f GC nins,

1051
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: suggesting that at least five are been captured by late September.

1052
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: Then two months later, a new post popped up in

1053
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: the fos cat cebreadit Hey, I'm back and the guy

1054
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: who posted a thank you know back in September here.

1055
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 1: Now that the FGC nines are ready known by the dictator,

1056
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: I can proudly announce the We're from me and mar. Yes,

1057
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 1: we are mass producing FGC nines to fight back against

1058
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 1: the Dictator. More info about our production will be published

1059
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: later this time. The user you slash daddy u m

1060
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: c D hung around to answer questions. Those basterds didn't

1061
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 1: know we had the tech back then. Now that everything

1062
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: is in public, we can proudly say we're from me

1063
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 1: and mar. We are mostly responsible for production in R

1064
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 1: and D, even though we also involved in other ground missions.

1065
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 1: We distribute the FDC nine to a lot of different

1066
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 1: urban guerrillas in urban and rural areas. Some of the

1067
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 1: units got arrested a few weeks ago, which you might

1068
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 1: have already seen on the sub credit. Apart from the

1069
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 1: FGC nine, there are other equipments and weapons that are

1070
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 1: being produced with three D printers, he wrote. He said

1071
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 1: his team were residing in ethnic armed organization areas, mainly

1072
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: the Corn National Union and the Kitchin Independence Army controlled zones.

1073
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 1: He posted that they tried other three D printed designs,

1074
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 1: such as the plastic of which is a printed a

1075
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: K forty seven receiver, but getting the other parts made

1076
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: it impractical. By contrast, the FTC nine can be made

1077
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 1: entirely using a three D printer and some hardware store parts.

1078
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 1: According to another source, Mere Moust, small motorcycle repair shops

1079
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: made quick work of the metal barrels and bolts. Electro

1080
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 1: Chemical machining was used to make more barrels. They also

1081
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 1: had the chance to buy a few glock barrels from Thailand,

1082
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 1: Daddy U m c d said, but those costs a

1083
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 1: lot more than the FDC nine barrels. While his account

1084
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 1: continued to post, the military continued to share photos of

1085
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:52,160
Speaker 1: captured FCC nines. Three workshops that have been using lathes

1086
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:54,919
Speaker 1: to make the barrels were raided. The photos of three

1087
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: more captured guns popped up in November, alongside bolt action

1088
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 1: rifles still had stickers on their stocks from what looked

1089
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: like US gun shops. Production and decentralized locations continued despite

1090
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 1: the raids, while other groups fought on with homemade revolving rifles,

1091
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:19,160
Speaker 1: crude homemade wooden stocks, another improvised weapons. A telegram channel

1092
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 1: with instructions in Burmese on how to make the guns

1093
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 1: made sure that even when one shop or gunsmith was

1094
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: taken out of the fight, the knowledge wasn't lost. Although

1095
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: filament for their three D printers were becoming harder to get,

1096
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 1: they'd stock piled a lot in advance. Daddy U m

1097
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 1: c D tried to manufacture automatic FGC nine and another

1098
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: printiple model called Professor Parabellum square tubes of machine gun,

1099
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: but nothing else seemed as easier as reliable as the

1100
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 1: FDC nine. Of course, read it. Being read it, people

1101
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 1: questioned the veracity and utility of his posts. He responded,

1102
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,440
Speaker 1: FCC nines are just part of the game because they

1103
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 1: could be use with what we have At the lowest

1104
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 1: cost available rifles of four thousand to seven thousand U

1105
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: S dollars at our border, f gcs are under one

1106
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: hundred dollars. Rifle parts are ten times more expensive than

1107
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 1: lock parts. To all those who are saying these photos

1108
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 1: of sus we don't want to blame your suspicion. If

1109
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: any of you remember the threat I posted in September,

1110
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,600
Speaker 1: you will remember that we are mass producing FGC nights.

1111
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: The ones in the photos you've seen were supplied by us.

1112
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 1: There are many groups like this now we do the

1113
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 1: main production, just like I explained in September. Then, Daddy

1114
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 1: um c D went on to thank the other members

1115
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: of the sub creddit, claiming their active help was the

1116
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 1: only reason he and other revolutionaries have been able to

1117
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:46,799
Speaker 1: overcome certain technical issues. We wouldn't be here without you, guys,

1118
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 1: especially someone who shared with me the buffer spring and

1119
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 1: fire control groups bring the measurements, he said. By late November,

1120
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: photos of FGC nins in the hands of fighters emerged

1121
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: and they showed sight. This time they had longer barrels

1122
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 1: and home made suppresses too. The FGC nines were apparently

1123
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: used by urban units for close up fighting and for

1124
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: the training of new fighters, since they have essentially the

1125
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 1: same controls and they are fifteen or M sixteen rifle,

1126
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 1: both of which are common in ME and Moze rebel units.

1127
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 1: We have successfully streamlined variety of techniques to produce f

1128
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 1: GC nine one thousand plus efficiently. Our primary forces are

1129
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 1: equipped with proper rifles. FDC nines are for guerrilla warfare.

1130
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 1: We started using those in hit and run and special

1131
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:38,760
Speaker 1: Task Force missions too. We don't share much about the

1132
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:41,600
Speaker 1: mission to the public yet. It will definitely come and

1133
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 1: when it does, are updated here if I'm still alive,

1134
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: ha ha, wrote Daddy u m c D on the

1135
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:53,040
Speaker 1: False cat Sepreddit. Even with production in false Wing, ammunition

1136
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 1: remained a problem. Although some regions can produce twenty two

1137
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 1: and nine minimeter at home. According to the u m

1138
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 1: c D, five six can be purchased in large quantities

1139
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,839
Speaker 1: at the border with Thailand, but it isn't cheap. Instead,

1140
01:10:08,479 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 1: the PDF alide on raiding police and military outposts in

1141
01:10:11,439 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 1: the same way the EO has had for years. Nine

1142
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: millimeter is the most common center fire pistol around in

1143
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 1: the world. That's why the Turrns Dispense picked it for

1144
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:24,719
Speaker 1: the FDC. Nine sees weapons often only have a handful

1145
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: of rounds, but that's enough to kill a soldier and

1146
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 1: take his weapon. Jay Stark might not have been around

1147
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:34,639
Speaker 1: to see his invention used to fight tyranny, but Hammrahan

1148
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 1: thinks he would have been happy with the results. He

1149
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 1: would have been made up. I think that's everything he

1150
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: wanted to achieve. You know what I'm saying, That really

1151
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 1: is everything you wanted to do. Even the National Unity

1152
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: Government me and mus government in exile has come around

1153
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:50,880
Speaker 1: to at least some of Jay Stark's ways of thinking.

1154
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 1: According to Daddy um c D Ministry of Defense Minister

1155
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 1: already promised about the right to bear arms at the

1156
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:02,200
Speaker 1: first day of the revolution. Promises made by revolutionary governments

1157
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 1: are not exactly solid commitments, but it's not hard to

1158
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 1: see why a generation of kids like Zaw forged by

1159
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 1: an asymmetrical conflict with a government that possessed a near

1160
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 1: absolute advantage in armaments, might be committed to staying armed

1161
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,800
Speaker 1: even if they win. At the moment, the future of

1162
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,919
Speaker 1: their struggle is very much in doubt. Scrolling through Facebook

1163
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:24,080
Speaker 1: photos of Zol and his comrades is a surreal experience.

1164
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 1: They look not just young soldiers mostly look young, but

1165
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 1: they look like students, kids from some weirdly militarized university.

1166
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:35,080
Speaker 1: Photos on Facebook show them sprawled out together in the

1167
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:38,720
Speaker 1: grass and camo fatigues, bearing rifles, but each glued to

1168
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:42,560
Speaker 1: their phones as they cuddle in together. Zow and his girlfriend,

1169
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: who he described to us as the girl I love,

1170
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 1: fought alongside each other until January seven of this year.

1171
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 1: The battle that we started, she was coming within and

1172
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, asp of sense weapons landed near her and

1173
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:04,000
Speaker 1: hit her like so their bone broke so so she

1174
01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:06,759
Speaker 1: had to go to hospital. Three D printed and homemade

1175
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 1: guns have helped, but Zoll and his friends are still

1176
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,799
Speaker 1: fighting against a modern military with planes, night vision goggles,

1177
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 1: and tanks. Despite this, more than a year after the coup,

1178
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,759
Speaker 1: they're still fighting, and more soldiers affect to join them weekly.

1179
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 1: It's hard to see what victory looks like the cities

1180
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 1: will be another battle altogether. But in the jungle camp

1181
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 1: where Zoll video calls us from, it's impossible to see

1182
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 1: what giving up might look like. Either he's still fighting,

1183
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 1: his girlfriend is healing, and they're both committed to staying

1184
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 1: out in the jungle until they are in their freedom

1185
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:54,640
Speaker 1: back or die trying. I'm Robert Evans, and this is

1186
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 1: part four of me and mar printing the revolution. And

1187
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: then once we thought that we couldn't rest, you know,

1188
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:04,639
Speaker 1: reign sid whatever. Women as well, and we were all

1189
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 1: like try. When they came when we were leaving, they

1190
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:13,200
Speaker 1: were all like very fair skin beautiful. And then we

1191
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:16,360
Speaker 1: went in and then everyone got tanned. In the jungle,

1192
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 1: we're training all the time, you know, people in training camp.

1193
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 1: We were driven with the part and the reason that

1194
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: we were all doing this is because of Man nine

1195
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:29,680
Speaker 1: school as students and how much he has terrorized the

1196
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:32,800
Speaker 1: public and the people, and that's why we were We

1197
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:35,920
Speaker 1: have this morale and the ability to get through the

1198
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 1: training and be able to wield weapons. Zor and his

1199
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 1: friends went into the jungleist students, programmers and kids. Now

1200
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 1: they're fighters. They would tech savvy, young people. He says,

1201
01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 1: they grew up online and that generational divide was the

1202
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:55,519
Speaker 1: Internet brought here came much later in Mima. It wasn't

1203
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,560
Speaker 1: until twenty eleven the people really gained access to the

1204
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 1: Internet with the new ideas and identities today brought. Those

1205
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 1: generation are among the first to embrace glible connectivity, and

1206
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 1: now after having it taken away, they're refusing to give

1207
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 1: it up. The start of the coup in February, the

1208
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 1: military school gen Z was organizing online social media and

1209
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 1: all that so and they were kind of I think

1210
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 1: this is from my experience, but um kind of organizing

1211
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 1: around like gen Z is going to be different than

1212
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:35,479
Speaker 1: the generation because we have the Internet, and also we

1213
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 1: know more about the world and can come communicate the

1214
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 1: rest of the world. I think one thing that was

1215
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 1: big was that in two thousand eight, it just took

1216
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: one video leaking out of the country for there to

1217
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 1: be big international repercussions. It's worth noting that when people

1218
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: in Burma talk about the Internet, they mean Facebook. Phones

1219
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 1: come with the Facebook app installed and it's sometimes exempt

1220
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:02,600
Speaker 1: from day to church juice. For many people in Burma,

1221
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:06,799
Speaker 1: using the Internet means using Facebook. Zor and his friends

1222
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:09,439
Speaker 1: are different from their parents in many ways, not at

1223
01:15:09,479 --> 01:15:11,960
Speaker 1: least in their perceptions of authority. This has led to

1224
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 1: a situation where the PDF people's defense force units are

1225
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 1: much less hierarchical than units of the town moidor so

1226
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 1: when we make decisions in our group, there's no master

1227
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 1: and student. There's no teacher and student. But you know

1228
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:30,920
Speaker 1: the way that it works. There are people who are good.

1229
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 1: They're older, people who are more trained, and then their

1230
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:37,559
Speaker 1: new recruits, new people who just came in. So of

1231
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:39,680
Speaker 1: course the people who are there for longer and know

1232
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,840
Speaker 1: more about the situation have more voice. And when we

1233
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:47,759
Speaker 1: discussed so especially people who were there when we founded

1234
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:50,880
Speaker 1: this group. There were only really eight people from when

1235
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:54,080
Speaker 1: we group, so those eight people kind of discussed on

1236
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:59,679
Speaker 1: the bigger strategy. You know, we don't really vote their

1237
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,320
Speaker 1: He says he wants to do it, he thinks it's good.

1238
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:08,599
Speaker 1: We are there's the seven of us we think is good,

1239
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:11,439
Speaker 1: or we support him, or someone says, well, we don't

1240
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 1: really like that idea, then we don't do it. They

1241
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,920
Speaker 1: try to achieve more gender quality as well, but there's

1242
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 1: are explained that in his unit the women are not

1243
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:23,640
Speaker 1: always the frontline fighter is that's the place there's no discrimination.

1244
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:27,759
Speaker 1: You know, women can women and men were training whoever

1245
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 1: could come. But like on the battlefield, people, we don't

1246
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:38,519
Speaker 1: use women that much on the battlefield. That's one thing

1247
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 1: that we do know is that it's not it's not

1248
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:47,400
Speaker 1: really discrimination. But if women are with us together, we

1249
01:16:47,479 --> 01:16:50,639
Speaker 1: have a confusion about whether we need to protect them

1250
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:53,759
Speaker 1: or they're just fighting with with them, or they're fighting

1251
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 1: in front of us. And that there's one thing that

1252
01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:03,560
Speaker 1: is very different. It is that in terms of mentality,

1253
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:09,559
Speaker 1: we we can't. We never take the women out really

1254
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:14,240
Speaker 1: far into very dangerous flights, so often they're in the back,

1255
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 1: gets back up or two supplies or things like that.

1256
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 1: But as you know, the military government, the military terroristists

1257
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 1: are very very very unethical. They don't follow the rules,

1258
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:31,200
Speaker 1: so you know they're gonna shoot wherever they see. So

1259
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:35,160
Speaker 1: even if they're hanging back and they're sending medical supplies there,

1260
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:37,800
Speaker 1: they can still get hit for Zor in particular, there's

1261
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 1: a lot at stake. After almost an hour and a

1262
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:43,479
Speaker 1: half of talking, I asked about his parents. I've heard

1263
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 1: of retribution attacks against the families of factors and wondered

1264
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:48,559
Speaker 1: if he was worried about that. So mom and dad

1265
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:53,160
Speaker 1: are both they support me fighting against the military. They're

1266
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:57,439
Speaker 1: very happy. There's that really wants to do c d M,

1267
01:17:57,479 --> 01:18:03,719
Speaker 1: but he can't run away because the military has taken

1268
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:08,559
Speaker 1: his uh mother and his sisters. He's still has five sisters.

1269
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:12,599
Speaker 1: They're all still in that military command and they're worked

1270
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:17,280
Speaker 1: there in the military stool schools, so it's very hard

1271
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 1: for them to run away, right, So he really wants

1272
01:18:22,400 --> 01:18:26,519
Speaker 1: to leave the military, but he can't. So well, so

1273
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 1: that the fact that I am they're trying to fight

1274
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:34,479
Speaker 1: against the military. He's very happy, and but he tells

1275
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:38,880
Speaker 1: me to be careful about my own life. They're supportive

1276
01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:41,639
Speaker 1: and they really want to come fight themselves, but they

1277
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 1: can't because of my sisters and my mother. So him

1278
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:49,080
Speaker 1: seeing that I can do it is really wonderful for them.

1279
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 1: So his father, his other brother and other people, but

1280
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 1: are three of them below him. They've all usually just

1281
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:04,200
Speaker 1: lived together with grandfather and stuff in the military trumpounds

1282
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 1: or near the military. So he really wants to call

1283
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 1: all the people that are still there, but they can't leave.

1284
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:12,920
Speaker 1: This is what civil Ward does. Trapped us in a

1285
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 1: situation where we can't make the right choice even when

1286
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 1: we know what it is, and in many situations it's

1287
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:21,639
Speaker 1: pretty hard to discern right from wrong. In the midst

1288
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:24,719
Speaker 1: of so much violence, This All has been able to fight,

1289
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:28,040
Speaker 1: but his dad is stuck fighting against people like his

1290
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:32,080
Speaker 1: son in order to protect his daughters. Thousands of families

1291
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 1: across the country divided in the same way by circumstance

1292
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:39,280
Speaker 1: or ideology. The military is something of a separate society,

1293
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:42,439
Speaker 1: has its own schools in its own culture, but ethnic

1294
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:45,920
Speaker 1: armed organizations have not been close to Ovan populations either,

1295
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 1: and so whole new identities are being forged by Generation

1296
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:53,080
Speaker 1: Z while their families often struggle to abandon all certainties.

1297
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:57,000
Speaker 1: As we record this, Zall is still fighting, his girlfriend

1298
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:59,639
Speaker 1: is still healing. Every few weeks a video of him

1299
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 1: and his for ends pops up on redditor Facebook. They

1300
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:04,559
Speaker 1: have optics on their rifles now and are taking long

1301
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:07,839
Speaker 1: range shots at the topmodal who rely on iron sights.

1302
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:11,679
Speaker 1: They shoot and reload like soldiers, and they laugh like kids.

1303
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:15,680
Speaker 1: The Totmadaw still controls the cities, but to move between them,

1304
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:20,160
Speaker 1: they have to travel in convoys at breakneck speeds, using ambushes, mines,

1305
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 1: and knowledge of the terrain. E a o S and

1306
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:25,439
Speaker 1: the PDF are able to deny the military access to

1307
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 1: large portions of the countryside. Without a serious change in

1308
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:32,320
Speaker 1: the conflict, it might stay like this for years. A

1309
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: report published this month detailed the attacks in the Karini

1310
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 1: state by the TOTMODAU on churches, residential homes, camps were

1311
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:41,599
Speaker 1: displaced people, which killed sixty one in the months since

1312
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:45,479
Speaker 1: Saw left the city On Christmas Eve. In Prusso's township,

1313
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:48,920
Speaker 1: they killed at least forty civilians. Autopsies show some were

1314
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 1: gagged and burned alive. In recent months, the TOTMODAW has

1315
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 1: increased its use of air strikes against targets that it

1316
01:20:55,360 --> 01:21:00,320
Speaker 1: deems legitimate. Ming Anhlang, the junta's leader, flew to Russia twice.

1317
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 1: In one he was proclaimed an honorary professor of the

1318
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 1: Military University of the Russian Armed Forces. Quote. We are

1319
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:11,400
Speaker 1: determined to continue our efforts to strengthen bilateral ties based

1320
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 1: on the mutual understanding, respect and trust that have been

1321
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 1: established between our two countries, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu

1322
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:20,439
Speaker 1: said at a meeting with the coup leader on June

1323
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:23,320
Speaker 1: twenty two. We pay special attention to this meeting as

1324
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:25,559
Speaker 1: we see me and mar as a time tested strategic

1325
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:28,240
Speaker 1: partner and a reliable ally in Southeast Asia and the

1326
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 1: Asia Pacific region. He went on. Min Onhlang was equally

1327
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:35,240
Speaker 1: lavish with his praise, saying that he saw Russia as

1328
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:39,439
Speaker 1: a friend forever. Meanwar relies heavily on Russian hind M

1329
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:44,080
Speaker 1: I thirty five helicopter gunships, transport helicopters, Mid twenty nine

1330
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:46,679
Speaker 1: and s U thirty fighter jets and Yak one thirty

1331
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:50,720
Speaker 1: ground attack aircraft to carry out bombing raids and straight civilians.

1332
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:53,800
Speaker 1: All of these weapons systems have been seen more recently

1333
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:58,000
Speaker 1: in the fighting in Ukraine. One prominent Burmese Irish family,

1334
01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 1: the Kiyo Tongs, has helped the Unta avoid an international

1335
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 1: arms embargo using their global connections and a network of

1336
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:08,000
Speaker 1: shady shadow companies. They have purchased helicopters under the pretense

1337
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 1: of using them for tourism and the oil and gas industry,

1338
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:13,840
Speaker 1: and handed them over to the Top Meadaw. They've also

1339
01:22:13,880 --> 01:22:16,839
Speaker 1: helped shuttle coastal radar to me Anmar, which the Topmadal

1340
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 1: used to track Rohinga refugees and provide cover for several

1341
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:24,160
Speaker 1: aircraft purchases to fund these arms purchases, the top Meada

1342
01:22:24,280 --> 01:22:27,640
Speaker 1: has found willing markets for luxury goods abroad. According to

1343
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:31,439
Speaker 1: Justice for Menmar, since the coup in February one, the

1344
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:34,799
Speaker 1: United States has imported fifteen hundred and sixty five metric

1345
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:38,880
Speaker 1: tons of teak from the Annmar, using intermediaries to avoid sanctions.

1346
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 1: In the two thousand seventeen two thousand eighteen financial year,

1347
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:44,559
Speaker 1: the last year for which data is available, the government

1348
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:47,639
Speaker 1: received one hundred million US dollars in revenue from taxes

1349
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:51,519
Speaker 1: and royalties applied to the timber trade. One there were

1350
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:54,759
Speaker 1: more shipments than two thousand eighteen, offering the top medauw

1351
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,679
Speaker 1: the chance to make enough money to continue purchasing weapons

1352
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 1: to use against their population. The consult in ME and

1353
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:04,840
Speaker 1: My remains complicated. It's easy to reduce the alphabet super

1354
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:07,439
Speaker 1: rebel groups to E O S and the PDF, but

1355
01:23:07,479 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 1: these groups and their motivations are diverse. Pierre explained to

1356
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:14,160
Speaker 1: us that even within the Koran there are deep divisions. Well, first,

1357
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:19,320
Speaker 1: you have to know that historically the Karen rebellion that

1358
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:23,960
Speaker 1: started in the nineteen forty eight nineteen nine, so quite

1359
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:28,400
Speaker 1: a long time ago, was led by by Christian by

1360
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:32,439
Speaker 1: the Christian minority, okay, of the of the Karen people

1361
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:40,840
Speaker 1: because obviously that was the most Western educated people at

1362
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:46,320
Speaker 1: the time. And so this elite kind of reproduced itself

1363
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:50,720
Speaker 1: in the gay who without being the guy new is

1364
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 1: the Karen National Union is democratic movement. But you know,

1365
01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 1: our elites stand reproduce themselves. And so most of the leadership,

1366
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:08,920
Speaker 1: let's say, of the Karen National Union and the Karen

1367
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:20,599
Speaker 1: National Liberation Army was Christian like. And so the Burmese Junta,

1368
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:29,479
Speaker 1: the Burmese military government, decided to use this to create

1369
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:34,920
Speaker 1: a wedge between between the Karen Christians and the Karen

1370
01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:43,080
Speaker 1: Buddhists uh, and sent monks to say, agitate and try

1371
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 1: to cause this split on religious grounds no uh, And

1372
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:52,760
Speaker 1: they succeeded in parts and succeeded to to separate a

1373
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 1: part of Karen Buddhists that created the democratic Garen Buddhists,

1374
01:25:00,240 --> 01:25:07,439
Speaker 1: the army, which then allied themselves of course, to the

1375
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:13,600
Speaker 1: to the junta and to UH to attack the to

1376
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:16,960
Speaker 1: attack the kind of and the manor of plow, which

1377
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 1: of course they knew all the all the hoods there

1378
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:24,000
Speaker 1: on the defenses and where was the defense is situated

1379
01:25:24,040 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 1: et cetera, and succeeded in destroying the capital of the

1380
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:33,760
Speaker 1: Canon National Union in Manaplow in nine. So that was

1381
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:39,599
Speaker 1: the situation pretty much when I arrived. It was pretty hard,

1382
01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:48,160
Speaker 1: like uh, there was not so much territory anymore held

1383
01:25:48,320 --> 01:25:51,280
Speaker 1: by the caren and most more importantly, they lost a

1384
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 1: lot of income because a lot of their income come

1385
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 1: from tax at the border that they can control. You know.

1386
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:05,719
Speaker 1: So yeah that not every e a O has embraced

1387
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:08,960
Speaker 1: the National Unity Government directly, after all, many of its

1388
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:12,360
Speaker 1: members were enthusiastically running cover for the Rohinga genocide a

1389
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:14,640
Speaker 1: few years ago. Many of the e a O s

1390
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:17,760
Speaker 1: remain technically under a ceasefire with the Totmodal, and the

1391
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:20,360
Speaker 1: Totmada knows that if it pushes too far into e

1392
01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 1: a O territory, it risks provoking a full blown response.

1393
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 1: The e a O s, meanwhile, have been aiding and

1394
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:29,920
Speaker 1: training the PDF and still maintaining enough deniability that na

1395
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:33,640
Speaker 1: Totmadal has not been forced into a confrontation e a

1396
01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 1: O PDF alliances look different in different regions, and often

1397
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:40,160
Speaker 1: realities on the ground bear little relationship to the back

1398
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:43,599
Speaker 1: door diplomacy and official stances embraced by leadership in public,

1399
01:26:44,280 --> 01:26:46,600
Speaker 1: the war continues to have a huge toll on civilians.

1400
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:50,200
Speaker 1: According to United Nations, in total, some four hundred and

1401
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:53,719
Speaker 1: forty thousand people have been newly displaced since Seku happened

1402
01:26:53,760 --> 01:26:57,559
Speaker 1: in February twenty one, adding to an existing three hundred

1403
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:00,800
Speaker 1: seventy thousand who had fled their homes from earlier waves

1404
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 1: of violence and over a million people who had fled

1405
01:27:03,479 --> 01:27:07,719
Speaker 1: the Regina genocide. More than half the population of Corelli

1406
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:12,880
Speaker 1: State has fled. Humanitarian access is hard. Much of the

1407
01:27:12,960 --> 01:27:16,640
Speaker 1: relief effort for displaced people occurs within the local communities.

1408
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:21,040
Speaker 1: Thousands of refugees are camping along the border with Thailand,

1409
01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 1: which is defined by rivers. Initially, many people fled into Thailand,

1410
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:29,160
Speaker 1: but terrible conditions in refugee camps led some of them

1411
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 1: to return to Myanmar. Now they wade across the river

1412
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:36,479
Speaker 1: for international aid donations of food and water, but they

1413
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:39,280
Speaker 1: can't bring themselves to stay in the crowded camps overnight,

1414
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:42,240
Speaker 1: so they wade back to sleep on the Burmese side

1415
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 1: of the bank. The U n h c R the

1416
01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:47,960
Speaker 1: High Commission on Refugees, it's been unable to access camps

1417
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:51,080
Speaker 1: in Thailand or Me and Mar to check on the conditions.

1418
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:54,200
Speaker 1: But it has urged the Thai government, which has been

1419
01:27:54,240 --> 01:27:57,320
Speaker 1: credibly accused of forcing people back across the border, to

1420
01:27:57,400 --> 01:28:00,360
Speaker 1: move people to better conditions further into Thailand instead of

1421
01:28:00,439 --> 01:28:02,880
Speaker 1: keeping them in camps near the border. And here we

1422
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:06,040
Speaker 1: find the unfortunate, unavoidable reality of the civil war in

1423
01:28:06,080 --> 01:28:09,479
Speaker 1: Myan Mar. For all the uniqueness of aspects of the conflict,

1424
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:12,680
Speaker 1: the innovative ways of gen Z militias have interfaced with

1425
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 1: older ethnic military forces, the three D printed arms, et cetera.

1426
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:18,360
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, this is another brutal,

1427
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:21,519
Speaker 1: horrific conflict between large numbers of people who want to

1428
01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:24,280
Speaker 1: be free and a small number of people who want

1429
01:28:24,320 --> 01:28:27,160
Speaker 1: to control them. From Me and Mar to our media,

1430
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:32,959
Speaker 1: Ukraine to Syria, Ethiopia, true Iraq and beyond. The novelties

1431
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:35,640
Speaker 1: the twenty one century conflict don't change the fact that

1432
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:38,000
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, each war brings with

1433
01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:40,439
Speaker 1: it what might be the truest symbol of our current age,

1434
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:44,439
Speaker 1: parents saying goodbye to their kids, camps filled with deathperate

1435
01:28:44,479 --> 01:28:48,000
Speaker 1: people fleeing violence, and government's all over the world willing

1436
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:51,000
Speaker 1: to send nothing more than kind words and stern warnings.

1437
01:28:53,280 --> 01:28:57,840
Speaker 1: This is a PostScript, episode four. It's not one that

1438
01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:00,599
Speaker 1: we've been intending to record, because it's not news that

1439
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:06,760
Speaker 1: we'd ever hoped to have to share, but here we are. Unfortunately,

1440
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:09,799
Speaker 1: we found out that about ten days after we last spoken,

1441
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:14,639
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks before we released our podcast, Zor died.

1442
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:18,639
Speaker 1: And he died in battle fighting with the top me door.

1443
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:27,560
Speaker 1: He's really was, I suppose, an amazingly brave and courageous

1444
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:33,400
Speaker 1: young men and Um. I think that his loss is

1445
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:37,479
Speaker 1: one that reflects the realities of of what war is,

1446
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:44,880
Speaker 1: which is not great and glorious and exciting. It's young

1447
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:49,640
Speaker 1: men and sometimes young women, young non binary folks. I

1448
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:54,759
Speaker 1: imagine too, um dying when they had no quarrel with anyone,

1449
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:58,760
Speaker 1: when they just wanted to live their lives. Two years ago,

1450
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:02,320
Speaker 1: a year and a half forgo even he was just

1451
01:30:02,439 --> 01:30:05,840
Speaker 1: loving the people, he loved, having fun, being a kid,

1452
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 1: riding his motorcycle, speaking to his girlfriend on his phone,

1453
01:30:11,439 --> 01:30:15,280
Speaker 1: living a happy life. And then someone who had power

1454
01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 1: decided that they wanted to have more power, and they

1455
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:21,439
Speaker 1: decided that it didn't matter how many kids had to

1456
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:25,280
Speaker 1: die so they could have what they want, and he

1457
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:27,760
Speaker 1: decided to say no to that, and that's brave, and

1458
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:30,960
Speaker 1: I think all of us would agree that what he

1459
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:36,160
Speaker 1: did was right and morally courageous, and that that we

1460
01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:38,120
Speaker 1: would hope to be brave enough to do the same

1461
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:42,040
Speaker 1: if the same thing happened to us. This one's hit

1462
01:30:42,120 --> 01:30:45,800
Speaker 1: me quite hard, honestly. I know this is my job,

1463
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:47,400
Speaker 1: and it happens that it's happened before and it will

1464
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:52,400
Speaker 1: happen again. But he was such a happy, polite, kind

1465
01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:55,840
Speaker 1: young man. He never didn't pick up the phone, He

1466
01:30:56,400 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 1: never got tired of explaining stuff that we didn't understand um,

1467
01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 1: and he always answered our questions. It was nothing that

1468
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:08,439
Speaker 1: was off the table. There was nothing that he wouldn't

1469
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:13,800
Speaker 1: talk about with us. He was completely open. And yeah,

1470
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:17,800
Speaker 1: we will miss him greatly. He died fighting the thing

1471
01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:25,439
Speaker 1: that we all have to fight, right, fascism, dictatorship, totalitarianism, militarization,

1472
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:32,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, we'll will grieve his loss. Both Robert and

1473
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:34,840
Speaker 1: I have. We've just spoken on the phone and we

1474
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:37,479
Speaker 1: found out because the contact of mine on the ground

1475
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:40,120
Speaker 1: sent me a Reddit message with a link to a

1476
01:31:40,200 --> 01:31:43,599
Speaker 1: Facebook post and it's very clearly Zorin no doubt about that.

1477
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:50,200
Speaker 1: It names him, and unfortunately it also shows him dead.

1478
01:31:51,479 --> 01:31:53,479
Speaker 1: So we were not in any doubt that it was

1479
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:56,840
Speaker 1: him who died, and we're not in any doubt that

1480
01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:01,680
Speaker 1: we will gravely miss him either. We both hoped to

1481
01:32:01,760 --> 01:32:04,040
Speaker 1: go over and record with him, to speak with him,

1482
01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:07,880
Speaker 1: to meet him. I've spoken to him several times on video,

1483
01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:12,559
Speaker 1: sometimes just to chat, not even to to record anything,

1484
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:16,000
Speaker 1: just just to chat, just to catch up and and

1485
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:18,280
Speaker 1: and look at what each of us was doing that day.

1486
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:24,679
Speaker 1: So it's a hard loss for me and for Robert

1487
01:32:24,720 --> 01:32:29,040
Speaker 1: will As I said, we've just spoken, um, so yeah,

1488
01:32:29,080 --> 01:32:33,439
Speaker 1: that's the news that we hadn't hoped to end on. Obviously, though,

1489
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:36,160
Speaker 1: this is the reality of war. And as the world

1490
01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:40,599
Speaker 1: is looking at the conflict in Ukraine now, I'd urge

1491
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:42,559
Speaker 1: you too to look at the conflict in Myanmar. To

1492
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:49,439
Speaker 1: another Russian bomb killed another nice kid who never had

1493
01:32:49,479 --> 01:32:52,240
Speaker 1: any quarrel with anyone, who just wanted to live his life,

1494
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:54,920
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to live the rest of his

1495
01:32:55,000 --> 01:32:57,839
Speaker 1: life with a boot on his neck, so he decided

1496
01:32:57,880 --> 01:33:00,920
Speaker 1: to stand up against it. As you can probably hear

1497
01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:07,439
Speaker 1: my voice, I'm quite upset bye by his loss and

1498
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:11,559
Speaker 1: will be probably for a few days. So I'm sorry

1499
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:13,880
Speaker 1: to have to end this podcast on such a sad note.

1500
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:19,120
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for his family who are now caught between

1501
01:33:19,160 --> 01:33:23,200
Speaker 1: the loss of their son and trying to protect their daughters.

1502
01:33:24,439 --> 01:33:28,680
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for his girlfriend, who's dealing with shrapnel in

1503
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 1: her own leg and now the loss of the person

1504
01:33:30,439 --> 01:33:34,160
Speaker 1: she loved. And I'm sorry for his comrades. And they've

1505
01:33:34,160 --> 01:33:36,000
Speaker 1: said they'll go on fighting, and I hope they do.

1506
01:33:36,880 --> 01:33:39,280
Speaker 1: And I don't think there's any point really pretending to

1507
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:41,240
Speaker 1: be objective at this stage in the games, and I

1508
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 1: hope they win, um, But I mostly just hope that

1509
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 1: like one day, young men and women and everyone else

1510
01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:56,479
Speaker 1: just gets to live their lives without having to kill

1511
01:33:56,520 --> 01:34:01,479
Speaker 1: and die, because ultimately, no one should have to and

1512
01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 1: no parents should have to bury their kids. Um. So yeah,

1513
01:34:06,320 --> 01:34:08,479
Speaker 1: as much as we're all focusing on Ukraine and what's

1514
01:34:08,479 --> 01:34:11,759
Speaker 1: happening there is terrible, Please don't forgets all his comrades,

1515
01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:16,959
Speaker 1: Please don't forget his legacy, um, and please don't forget him.

1516
01:34:17,360 --> 01:34:19,879
Speaker 1: We won't and we obviously want to dedicate this podcast

1517
01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 1: to him and what he stood for. So yeah, thanks, Oh,

1518
01:34:38,200 --> 01:34:42,080
Speaker 1: welcome to it could happen here. I'm Robert Evans, recording

1519
01:34:42,160 --> 01:34:46,360
Speaker 1: from a deeply unsettling airbnb right near the border of

1520
01:34:46,400 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 1: Texas and Mexico. Um. I'm here with my good friend

1521
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:54,439
Speaker 1: James Stout. Say hello to the people. Hi everyone, and

1522
01:34:54,439 --> 01:34:57,200
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about well, let me let me

1523
01:34:57,280 --> 01:35:00,320
Speaker 1: introduce briefly. You'll you'll see the episodes soon. Eno. What

1524
01:35:00,360 --> 01:35:04,519
Speaker 1: we're down here reporting on um a mixture of of

1525
01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:09,559
Speaker 1: of right wing militancy, government militarization of the border, and

1526
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:12,440
Speaker 1: the attempts by people trapped in the middle to survive

1527
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:16,920
Speaker 1: and avoid those authoritarian structures. So today, James and they're

1528
01:35:16,960 --> 01:35:21,040
Speaker 1: going to talk about molotov cocktails. Um. But first, James,

1529
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:23,559
Speaker 1: you want to talk about this airbnb. We're in for

1530
01:35:23,600 --> 01:35:27,320
Speaker 1: a second because you book this motherfucker deeply. Yeah yeah, yeah.

1531
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:30,599
Speaker 1: So what happens when you have like less than twenty

1532
01:35:30,640 --> 01:35:32,559
Speaker 1: four hours before you arrive and need a place for

1533
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:36,479
Speaker 1: more than two people is uh, you really get into

1534
01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:39,000
Speaker 1: the depth of airbnb And I've found this place, which

1535
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:45,559
Speaker 1: how to describe it? Um? Yeah, YEA unsettling, Yeah yeah,

1536
01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:49,759
Speaker 1: it it just feels wrong. I can't put my finger

1537
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:52,479
Speaker 1: quite on where there is a basement which definitely has

1538
01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:56,639
Speaker 1: like murder vibes. And there's not basements in Texas normally,

1539
01:35:56,800 --> 01:35:59,439
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's crumbling and unsettling. There's a some

1540
01:35:59,640 --> 01:36:04,520
Speaker 1: pump doesn't appear connected to anything. There's puddles of standing water. Um.

1541
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:07,679
Speaker 1: I think there's like nine bedrooms in this house. Yeah,

1542
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:11,639
Speaker 1: but only one like it is upstairs, and it seems

1543
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:14,000
Speaker 1: to have like like to be designed to command an

1544
01:36:14,080 --> 01:36:18,280
Speaker 1: arqui fier around the house. Then there are other bedrooms

1545
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:22,000
Speaker 1: which are like kind of in this stable block. What

1546
01:36:22,120 --> 01:36:25,040
Speaker 1: else is weird? Like three of the bedrooms are separate

1547
01:36:25,080 --> 01:36:27,120
Speaker 1: from the main house and in a built in a

1548
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:29,880
Speaker 1: way that it looks like a roadside motel. And then

1549
01:36:29,880 --> 01:36:32,679
Speaker 1: there's a main house that has like four living rooms

1550
01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:36,080
Speaker 1: for We're sitting at a large kitchen table right now,

1551
01:36:36,080 --> 01:36:40,040
Speaker 1: which spins around a central access. For some inexplicable reason,

1552
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:45,000
Speaker 1: we have the overwhelming feeling that something horribly wrong was

1553
01:36:45,040 --> 01:36:47,720
Speaker 1: done in this space because it doesn't everything is a

1554
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:50,639
Speaker 1: little off. None of the decorations look like people. This

1555
01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:53,240
Speaker 1: is some sort of trap house, but we cannot identify

1556
01:36:53,320 --> 01:36:57,200
Speaker 1: the kind. I think you describe it best when you

1557
01:36:57,240 --> 01:36:59,600
Speaker 1: said it's like one of those this person does not

1558
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:02,040
Speaker 1: exist photos but of a home, and you can't work

1559
01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:04,639
Speaker 1: out what's wrong. But it's not human and it's not right.

1560
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:06,160
Speaker 1: So we just had to get that out of our

1561
01:37:06,200 --> 01:37:09,000
Speaker 1: systems because it's been deeply unsettling the last couple of days.

1562
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:13,679
Speaker 1: We're here now, James, you wrote an article about Molotov

1563
01:37:13,760 --> 01:37:17,439
Speaker 1: cocktails that got you in a bit of a fascinating situation.

1564
01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:19,280
Speaker 1: I want to just kind of walk me through what

1565
01:37:19,479 --> 01:37:21,920
Speaker 1: happened there and what the fallout was. Yeah, well, the

1566
01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:25,000
Speaker 1: one that started it was about how to tear down statues,

1567
01:37:25,400 --> 01:37:27,759
Speaker 1: and that was for popular mechanics. In In that article,

1568
01:37:27,840 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 1: I interviewed a couple of experts and one of them

1569
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:34,160
Speaker 1: explained how to make something called thermite. Thermitees like an

1570
01:37:34,160 --> 01:37:36,720
Speaker 1: exotherermic reaction, and you mix a couple of things, they

1571
01:37:36,760 --> 01:37:38,800
Speaker 1: get hot, They get hot enough to melt some metal.

1572
01:37:38,920 --> 01:37:42,400
Speaker 1: So if you were interested in bringing down a statue

1573
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:44,920
Speaker 1: of a bigot, that might be helpful to you. By

1574
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 1: the way, it's legal basically all of the US to

1575
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:50,240
Speaker 1: possess their mite, and pretty simple to make. Not that

1576
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:52,920
Speaker 1: you know, you can google it. You can figure that

1577
01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:54,880
Speaker 1: out yourself. Yeah, I'm not telling you how to make it.

1578
01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:59,000
Speaker 1: I'm telling you that it exists, exists, and is surprisingly legal. Yes,

1579
01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:01,240
Speaker 1: and if you need to old some ship underwater or

1580
01:38:01,280 --> 01:38:03,519
Speaker 1: joined together some train tracks, it's the right tool for

1581
01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:05,559
Speaker 1: the job. Yeah. If you happen to be I know

1582
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 1: a lot of the Russian Army in Ukraine listens to

1583
01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:10,400
Speaker 1: this podcast. If you happen to be in the process

1584
01:38:10,439 --> 01:38:13,000
Speaker 1: of abandoning hundreds of millions of dollars in armor, their

1585
01:38:13,080 --> 01:38:16,920
Speaker 1: mite can allow you to stop Ukrainian farmers from towing

1586
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:19,400
Speaker 1: it back to their homes. Yeah, but don't do that

1587
01:38:19,439 --> 01:38:22,640
Speaker 1: if you're a Russian soldier. Just just run, um, go

1588
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:26,240
Speaker 1: to the Ukrainians. I'll let you call your mom. They're nice. Um. Okay.

1589
01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:30,120
Speaker 1: So I write the story for pop Mac Right. It's

1590
01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:32,320
Speaker 1: it's just a useful guide to people who are looking

1591
01:38:32,360 --> 01:38:36,320
Speaker 1: to safely dispose of a racist statue. Right. And when

1592
01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:42,200
Speaker 1: I write it, I think their readership might lean pretty conservative,

1593
01:38:42,560 --> 01:38:44,799
Speaker 1: or they felt like that was a safe space. Anyway.

1594
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:50,519
Speaker 1: It immediately became like the epicenter of the culture War

1595
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:55,599
Speaker 1: for like a week, including triggering one Benjamin Shapiro, who

1596
01:38:56,600 --> 01:39:01,800
Speaker 1: then sub tweeted me like a coward and asked when

1597
01:39:01,840 --> 01:39:06,240
Speaker 1: I'll be writing my story about Molotov cocktails, which I

1598
01:39:06,280 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 1: subsequently wrote. So that that gets us to the Molotov

1599
01:39:09,000 --> 01:39:12,040
Speaker 1: cocktail story. I was in Russia today as well, now

1600
01:39:12,160 --> 01:39:16,800
Speaker 1: banned media outlet No No No. I wrote it for

1601
01:39:16,960 --> 01:39:21,280
Speaker 1: a British magazine called Huck. I described like Huck is

1602
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 1: like like Vice but less tragic, like af device went bad,

1603
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:29,920
Speaker 1: Huck Huck school. Um, and so yeah, Ben Ben was upset.

1604
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:34,040
Speaker 1: Ben orchestrated this kind of right wing panic around the story.

1605
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:38,000
Speaker 1: They canceled pop Mac for a while, and I wrote

1606
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:42,320
Speaker 1: a piece about the history and I guess chemistry of

1607
01:39:42,479 --> 01:39:45,720
Speaker 1: monotor and they're rolling democratization movements. That was really fascinating

1608
01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:47,040
Speaker 1: to me. So yeah, that's how we got to the

1609
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:50,000
Speaker 1: Molotov story. And you want to give me kind of

1610
01:39:50,000 --> 01:39:52,640
Speaker 1: some cliffs notes on the history of the Molotov and

1611
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:55,120
Speaker 1: it's rolling because what I know about Molotov cocktails, I

1612
01:39:55,120 --> 01:39:58,160
Speaker 1: assume it's named after Molotov, of the Molotov ribbon trop

1613
01:39:58,200 --> 01:40:01,960
Speaker 1: packed right the at slav Molotov. Yeah, um, and I

1614
01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:04,599
Speaker 1: know I have been near a couple of them going off.

1615
01:40:04,640 --> 01:40:06,640
Speaker 1: I nearly got lit on fire by one, and I

1616
01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:08,920
Speaker 1: watched a colleague get let on fire by another. So

1617
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:13,360
Speaker 1: I am aware of what they do. Um, But yeah,

1618
01:40:13,400 --> 01:40:15,000
Speaker 1: why don't you walk us through kind of the close

1619
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:18,559
Speaker 1: notes of the history of molotovs. Yeah, absolutely, so. Um.

1620
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:20,360
Speaker 1: A lot of times you'll go on the Internet and

1621
01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:21,920
Speaker 1: you're read something about history and it will turn out

1622
01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:23,920
Speaker 1: not to be right, and that that's often the case

1623
01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:28,880
Speaker 1: with Molotov cocktails. So, yes, they're named after Lav Molotov.

1624
01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:30,800
Speaker 1: We can get to why they named that way in

1625
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:35,200
Speaker 1: a second. But they their origin is actually with Franco's

1626
01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:39,479
Speaker 1: nationalist fascist national fascists, whatever you wanna call them, national

1627
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:43,240
Speaker 1: Catholic troops in the Spanish Civil War. So early on

1628
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:46,559
Speaker 1: in the Spanish Civil War nineteen thirties seven ish, um,

1629
01:40:46,720 --> 01:40:50,320
Speaker 1: the Republic had some Soviet tanks and they were using

1630
01:40:50,320 --> 01:40:53,719
Speaker 1: these against the At Fentbro, they were using these against

1631
01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:55,920
Speaker 1: the nationalists and nationalists were throwing what they then called

1632
01:40:55,960 --> 01:40:59,519
Speaker 1: petrol bombs at the tanks too great effect. There's those

1633
01:40:59,560 --> 01:41:02,360
Speaker 1: old tanks had rubber on the wheels that turned the

1634
01:41:02,400 --> 01:41:05,160
Speaker 1: tracks and those would melt. So that's when they were

1635
01:41:05,200 --> 01:41:07,360
Speaker 1: first used. And if you're not familiar with what a

1636
01:41:07,360 --> 01:41:12,360
Speaker 1: Molotov cocktail is, it's an improvised incendiary device. It's a

1637
01:41:12,439 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 1: glass thing filled with a flammable thing, topped with some

1638
01:41:16,240 --> 01:41:19,360
Speaker 1: kind of cloth with a flame that the goth is burning.

1639
01:41:19,720 --> 01:41:22,679
Speaker 1: And when you throw it, obviously the glass thing breaks,

1640
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:25,680
Speaker 1: the flammable liquid comes out, and the flame catches a

1641
01:41:25,720 --> 01:41:30,240
Speaker 1: liquid and you have a fireball. So the first time

1642
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 1: we kind of see them is used it in the

1643
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:34,240
Speaker 1: Spanish and war. We see references to them in like

1644
01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:37,720
Speaker 1: British media in the nineteen thirties when British reporters were

1645
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:40,040
Speaker 1: going out to watch the Spanish Civil War and they

1646
01:41:40,040 --> 01:41:43,160
Speaker 1: were like, Wow, what a development, what a technology, and

1647
01:41:43,680 --> 01:41:46,439
Speaker 1: so they used there. But where they get their names

1648
01:41:46,439 --> 01:41:50,400
Speaker 1: in Finland, right when the Soviets invade Finland. Why they

1649
01:41:50,479 --> 01:41:54,479
Speaker 1: got their name is that Molotov claimed that his planes

1650
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:57,160
Speaker 1: were not dropping bombs. You'll see like a history of

1651
01:41:57,200 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 1: gas lighting in Russian Foreign poll or Soviet foreign policy here. Um.

1652
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:03,439
Speaker 1: He claimed they weren't dropping bombs. He claimed that they

1653
01:42:03,479 --> 01:42:07,040
Speaker 1: were bringing aid to the people of Finland, right, and

1654
01:42:07,400 --> 01:42:09,320
Speaker 1: Finland was like, this is ridiculous. So they kind of

1655
01:42:09,400 --> 01:42:13,000
Speaker 1: started calling the bombs Molotov's bread baskets, and pretty soon

1656
01:42:13,120 --> 01:42:17,360
Speaker 1: everything that was shipped was associated with molotovs. Bombers were

1657
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:24,519
Speaker 1: Molotov's chickens, blackout curtains were Molotov's curtains, And so the

1658
01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:27,559
Speaker 1: they switched many of their state alcohol factories to making

1659
01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:31,160
Speaker 1: Molotov cocktails, and so they started calling these these pet

1660
01:42:31,160 --> 01:42:34,200
Speaker 1: work work called petrol bombs Molotov cocktails, and that's how

1661
01:42:34,200 --> 01:42:36,880
Speaker 1: the names dug It is neat that Russia has such

1662
01:42:36,920 --> 01:42:40,360
Speaker 1: a long history of causing other nations to retool their

1663
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:44,320
Speaker 1: domestic liquor production towards making bombs to throw at Russian soldiers,

1664
01:42:44,720 --> 01:42:47,360
Speaker 1: and like, how what do we now eighty odd years

1665
01:42:47,439 --> 01:42:52,000
Speaker 1: on from from nine seven? Like it's it's not always

1666
01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:56,240
Speaker 1: Russian tanks, but it's nearly always Russian tanks, right like

1667
01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:59,439
Speaker 1: Spain and the Russian tanks are obviously like in the

1668
01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:05,720
Speaker 1: Republican Spain is much preferable to Franco Finland hungry and

1669
01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:10,479
Speaker 1: ninety six right um, And today in Ukraine you see

1670
01:43:10,479 --> 01:43:13,920
Speaker 1: people throwing bottles of petrol with flames on top of

1671
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:17,280
Speaker 1: Russian tanks. Yeah, they have a long history. Yeah, I

1672
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:19,880
Speaker 1: mean it's it's among other things like especially if you

1673
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:23,439
Speaker 1: don't have easy access to firearms and and no access

1674
01:43:23,479 --> 01:43:27,680
Speaker 1: to explosives and stuff like. It's it's not a force equalizer,

1675
01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:30,679
Speaker 1: but it does allow you to to do certain things

1676
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:35,519
Speaker 1: militarily that that would be harder to do, um if

1677
01:43:35,520 --> 01:43:37,720
Speaker 1: you were like trying to manufacture something a little bit

1678
01:43:37,720 --> 01:43:41,160
Speaker 1: more like it's easier than making a grenade, right, Like, yeah,

1679
01:43:41,160 --> 01:43:43,040
Speaker 1: and it does much more damage than a rock, but

1680
01:43:43,080 --> 01:43:45,760
Speaker 1: it's not much harder to come by for most people. Right.

1681
01:43:46,439 --> 01:43:48,479
Speaker 1: One really interesting thing I read about them was by

1682
01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:50,720
Speaker 1: this academic who I really like his work. It's called

1683
01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:54,680
Speaker 1: Ali Cadiva, and he's Iranian, and he's looked at like

1684
01:43:54,720 --> 01:43:58,040
Speaker 1: democratization movements all over the world. Right, so, how do

1685
01:43:58,120 --> 01:44:03,439
Speaker 1: authoritarian regimes collapse? And his research suggested that like peaceful

1686
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:07,080
Speaker 1: extreme like extremely like quote unquote peaceful protests tend not

1687
01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:11,000
Speaker 1: to work, and insurgencies hadn't had that higher a success rate.

1688
01:44:11,520 --> 01:44:14,800
Speaker 1: But his paper is called stick, stones and Molotov cocktails,

1689
01:44:14,880 --> 01:44:17,439
Speaker 1: and like his research suggested, like, if you're prepared to

1690
01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:20,160
Speaker 1: do violence against property by hidding it with a stick,

1691
01:44:20,240 --> 01:44:22,400
Speaker 1: throwing a stone, throwing a Monotov cocktail, then you are

1692
01:44:22,439 --> 01:44:25,720
Speaker 1: more likely to have success in toppling a regime. So like,

1693
01:44:26,040 --> 01:44:28,559
Speaker 1: because they're accessible to people who don't necessarily have guns,

1694
01:44:28,600 --> 01:44:31,479
Speaker 1: aren't doing insurgencies. They've had this really interesting role in

1695
01:44:32,160 --> 01:44:36,800
Speaker 1: arming nonstate actors or arming liberation movement throughout history. I mean,

1696
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:39,360
Speaker 1: that's really interesting because it would seem to suggest, like

1697
01:44:39,439 --> 01:44:42,000
Speaker 1: a reading of that paper would seem to suggest that, yeah,

1698
01:44:42,560 --> 01:44:46,240
Speaker 1: it's not so much like being willing to carry out

1699
01:44:46,840 --> 01:44:49,880
Speaker 1: like a militant movement, but being willing to destroy things

1700
01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:52,040
Speaker 1: as one of the primary signs that like you have

1701
01:44:52,080 --> 01:44:55,000
Speaker 1: a chance of actually overthrowing an authoritarian regime is like

1702
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:59,519
Speaker 1: your your ability to prepare to to do damage, um,

1703
01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:01,760
Speaker 1: like a financial nature, Like is that kind of the

1704
01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:04,479
Speaker 1: argument is making. I think the argument he's making is that, like,

1705
01:45:04,720 --> 01:45:06,559
Speaker 1: and it's an argument that can't be made enough. Right,

1706
01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:09,000
Speaker 1: the damage to property is not the same as damage

1707
01:45:09,040 --> 01:45:12,200
Speaker 1: to people, and violence against property in the name of

1708
01:45:12,280 --> 01:45:15,400
Speaker 1: liberation or justice is okay and tends to work. And

1709
01:45:15,439 --> 01:45:17,760
Speaker 1: but yeah, you have to have some skin in the game.

1710
01:45:17,920 --> 01:45:19,960
Speaker 1: You have to be prepared to fund some ship up

1711
01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:22,759
Speaker 1: if you if you want to bring down a regime

1712
01:45:22,760 --> 01:45:26,200
Speaker 1: which is prepared to use violence against you. That's kind

1713
01:45:26,240 --> 01:45:30,480
Speaker 1: of talking about the use of these tools within liberatory struggles.

1714
01:45:30,479 --> 01:45:33,560
Speaker 1: But they're not I guess the liberatory strugglesm the I

1715
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:35,519
Speaker 1: have the beholder that's talking about the use of these

1716
01:45:35,520 --> 01:45:39,040
Speaker 1: tools and kind of like street movements that are agitating

1717
01:45:39,080 --> 01:45:42,800
Speaker 1: for change. But we also have this military history UM,

1718
01:45:42,840 --> 01:45:44,559
Speaker 1: which I think is much more muddled in terms of

1719
01:45:44,560 --> 01:45:47,240
Speaker 1: its actual efficacy as a as a weapon, its ability

1720
01:45:47,280 --> 01:45:50,719
Speaker 1: to deny area, it's ability to destroy UM or damage

1721
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:54,439
Speaker 1: like enemy uh like combat ability. Do you do you

1722
01:45:54,479 --> 01:45:56,320
Speaker 1: have any kind of sense of like how effective like

1723
01:45:56,360 --> 01:45:58,360
Speaker 1: we're seeing all these people in Ukraine arming themselves with

1724
01:45:58,439 --> 01:46:02,960
Speaker 1: cocktails UM evidence of of of you know, the efficacy

1725
01:46:02,960 --> 01:46:05,559
Speaker 1: of these and calmbat as a lot murkier UM, at

1726
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:07,439
Speaker 1: least within the present conflict. Do you have a sense

1727
01:46:07,479 --> 01:46:10,920
Speaker 1: of how historically they're useful? They tend to be for that, Yeah,

1728
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:13,400
Speaker 1: I think depending on the age of the and and

1729
01:46:13,400 --> 01:46:15,640
Speaker 1: then the type of the vehicle you're attacking. Right, So

1730
01:46:15,800 --> 01:46:19,120
Speaker 1: like these old Russian tanks UM, what they would do

1731
01:46:19,160 --> 01:46:21,439
Speaker 1: a lot was make something which is not quite what

1732
01:46:21,479 --> 01:46:23,200
Speaker 1: we would see if the MONOTORV cocktails, I had a

1733
01:46:23,200 --> 01:46:26,000
Speaker 1: whole blanket that was soaked in petrol, and that would

1734
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:29,160
Speaker 1: get caught up in the track and then it would

1735
01:46:29,200 --> 01:46:31,920
Speaker 1: destroy that. There was a bit of rubber on on

1736
01:46:32,000 --> 01:46:34,479
Speaker 1: the wheels interface with the tracks that it would melt

1737
01:46:34,479 --> 01:46:37,200
Speaker 1: and that would immobilize the tank and then folks could

1738
01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:39,640
Speaker 1: swarm it from all angles. That was kind of the

1739
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:44,320
Speaker 1: move there, and then I think they've been more useful

1740
01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:48,000
Speaker 1: in Ukraine than one might have expected. Because of the

1741
01:46:48,160 --> 01:46:50,599
Speaker 1: nature of some of the Russian military vehicles. They tend

1742
01:46:50,640 --> 01:46:53,160
Speaker 1: to carry their fuel on the outside. They also because

1743
01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:56,160
Speaker 1: of the mud, they'll carry lots of pieces of wood

1744
01:46:56,439 --> 01:46:58,040
Speaker 1: that they can use to put under their wheels like

1745
01:46:58,120 --> 01:47:00,760
Speaker 1: you would you know, like sand ladders on the truck um,

1746
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:03,040
Speaker 1: so those tend to catch fire more easily. I know

1747
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 1: the b MPs also have fuel storage on the back door,

1748
01:47:06,040 --> 01:47:08,200
Speaker 1: which is is pretty optimal for if you want to

1749
01:47:08,200 --> 01:47:10,960
Speaker 1: walk up behind someone to set something on fire. So

1750
01:47:11,000 --> 01:47:14,200
Speaker 1: that they've worked pretty well there. In other places, yeah,

1751
01:47:14,200 --> 01:47:16,200
Speaker 1: they seem to be more of an annoyance, Like I know,

1752
01:47:16,280 --> 01:47:19,080
Speaker 1: I've spoken to people who have been in the military

1753
01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:22,920
Speaker 1: in the UK and like the big thing in Northern

1754
01:47:22,920 --> 01:47:25,280
Speaker 1: Ireland right again right, you have a sort of a

1755
01:47:25,320 --> 01:47:28,120
Speaker 1: liberatory movement there and so they were very popular, but

1756
01:47:28,120 --> 01:47:30,920
Speaker 1: they didn't seem to do much of them, cause people distress,

1757
01:47:31,080 --> 01:47:35,400
Speaker 1: cause people personal injury sometimes but not particularly too. They

1758
01:47:35,400 --> 01:47:38,080
Speaker 1: weren't game changing in terms of like the monopoly on

1759
01:47:38,200 --> 01:47:41,000
Speaker 1: violence there, but yeah, they seem to be very very

1760
01:47:41,080 --> 01:47:42,360
Speaker 1: I think they're better when you have a ton of

1761
01:47:42,360 --> 01:47:44,160
Speaker 1: people throwing them. I think you have a lot of

1762
01:47:44,200 --> 01:47:47,720
Speaker 1: people setting things on fire, that tends to be it

1763
01:47:47,960 --> 01:47:51,040
Speaker 1: causes people to stop. And I think with Russia being

1764
01:47:52,600 --> 01:47:56,040
Speaker 1: lacking in excellent leadership, it seems like we could say

1765
01:47:56,040 --> 01:47:58,360
Speaker 1: in Ukraine and some of their soldiers maybe lacking in training,

1766
01:47:59,080 --> 01:48:01,000
Speaker 1: and with the fact that they tend to carry fuel

1767
01:48:01,000 --> 01:48:03,360
Speaker 1: externally so their vehicles catch fire. If you can just

1768
01:48:03,479 --> 01:48:06,880
Speaker 1: convince some conscripts that their vehicle is on fire, they

1769
01:48:06,880 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 1: are going to get out, run away. And we've seen

1770
01:48:09,479 --> 01:48:12,599
Speaker 1: that a lot, right, a lot of people running away. Yeah.

1771
01:48:12,680 --> 01:48:15,920
Speaker 1: I think when I think about, like outside of military uses,

1772
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:18,680
Speaker 1: where I've seen molotovas be most effective in like the

1773
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:20,800
Speaker 1: time I've been covering conflict, that the first thing that

1774
01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:26,360
Speaker 1: comes up is the My Dawn Revolution Ukraine, where people

1775
01:48:26,400 --> 01:48:28,640
Speaker 1: were throwing some of the same people throwing molotops at

1776
01:48:28,680 --> 01:48:31,599
Speaker 1: Russian troops. Now we're through a mix of throwing by

1777
01:48:31,600 --> 01:48:35,040
Speaker 1: hand and like catapult devices were launching sometimes hundreds of

1778
01:48:35,080 --> 01:48:37,360
Speaker 1: molotovs in a couple of minutes and like melting tank

1779
01:48:37,360 --> 01:48:40,479
Speaker 1: treads to the ground, which is definitely like that's a

1780
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:43,599
Speaker 1: that's obviously it was effective. It's also almost a different

1781
01:48:43,640 --> 01:48:45,519
Speaker 1: kind of weapons system when you're when you're dealing with

1782
01:48:45,560 --> 01:48:51,000
Speaker 1: that kind of volume grad molotov launcher. Yeah. Yeah, but

1783
01:48:51,040 --> 01:48:53,360
Speaker 1: then I can think about, like, there's this really amazing

1784
01:48:53,479 --> 01:48:56,280
Speaker 1: video that you can find if you look of Greek

1785
01:48:56,439 --> 01:49:01,240
Speaker 1: anarchists on bicycles swarming pass a Greek police station and

1786
01:49:01,280 --> 01:49:03,599
Speaker 1: throwing it looked like about a dozen molotovs at once,

1787
01:49:03,760 --> 01:49:06,200
Speaker 1: and and just like sacking a police station that way

1788
01:49:06,200 --> 01:49:08,640
Speaker 1: and then biking right the funk off and like disappearing

1789
01:49:08,640 --> 01:49:12,320
Speaker 1: into the city um, which is which you know, seemed

1790
01:49:12,360 --> 01:49:14,439
Speaker 1: like a more effective tactic than some of the ways

1791
01:49:14,439 --> 01:49:16,639
Speaker 1: I've seen them used, where it's like a person throwing

1792
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 1: a molotov um and then the cops get really fucking angry,

1793
01:49:20,280 --> 01:49:21,800
Speaker 1: but it doesn't really do that much damage to them,

1794
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:23,639
Speaker 1: and then people get or they hit the wrong person.

1795
01:49:24,040 --> 01:49:25,800
Speaker 1: Like it is, it is a tool with a high

1796
01:49:26,000 --> 01:49:28,000
Speaker 1: degree of chance for error if you don't know what

1797
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:31,160
Speaker 1: you're doing. Yeah, it's there's a decent skill requirement. You

1798
01:49:31,200 --> 01:49:33,760
Speaker 1: also really don't want to have like anything flammable on

1799
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:36,439
Speaker 1: your hands or shirt or anything like that. Like I've

1800
01:49:36,439 --> 01:49:40,400
Speaker 1: seen people really end up badly after trying to make

1801
01:49:40,439 --> 01:49:42,600
Speaker 1: a molotov and just hurting themselves trying to light it

1802
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:45,840
Speaker 1: or throw it. Yeah, it's it's not. It's not one

1803
01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:48,719
Speaker 1: of those things that like you want to casually suggest

1804
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:51,680
Speaker 1: people use because the odds of actually injuring yourself with

1805
01:49:51,720 --> 01:49:54,360
Speaker 1: it are pretty high if you're not being careful. Um,

1806
01:49:54,439 --> 01:49:56,439
Speaker 1: and if you if you're going into a situation where

1807
01:49:56,479 --> 01:50:02,840
Speaker 1: you think people might have molotov's natural fibers people, natural fibers, nuts, synthetics. Yeah,

1808
01:50:02,920 --> 01:50:07,040
Speaker 1: well is your friend welding gloves your friend? Like, yeah,

1809
01:50:07,040 --> 01:50:10,599
Speaker 1: you don't want to be caught on fire. So let's

1810
01:50:10,600 --> 01:50:13,439
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how, like what are the

1811
01:50:13,439 --> 01:50:16,479
Speaker 1: different kinds of constructions of molotops you've seen people using

1812
01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:18,320
Speaker 1: and how they changed over time. You talked a little

1813
01:50:18,360 --> 01:50:20,400
Speaker 1: bit about kind of the early Spanish ones were like

1814
01:50:20,439 --> 01:50:22,840
Speaker 1: full blankets and stuff. Yeah, I think one of the

1815
01:50:22,840 --> 01:50:26,840
Speaker 1: interests where we go from Spain to to Finland right

1816
01:50:26,840 --> 01:50:29,400
Speaker 1: where we're seeing the same thing basically petrol or maybe

1817
01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:32,800
Speaker 1: ethanol or something like that inside a bottle with with

1818
01:50:32,920 --> 01:50:35,680
Speaker 1: just a wig, right something sort of. I know in

1819
01:50:35,720 --> 01:50:37,960
Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War they were using jars a lot like

1820
01:50:38,040 --> 01:50:42,120
Speaker 1: jam jars. But when things started to develop, I think

1821
01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:45,599
Speaker 1: is in the UK, so in Britain, and you actually

1822
01:50:45,600 --> 01:50:48,120
Speaker 1: have this guy called Tom Wintringham who went to Spain

1823
01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:50,519
Speaker 1: as a walk correspondent, decided to become a soldier and

1824
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:54,479
Speaker 1: then returned to the UK and tried to share what

1825
01:50:54,560 --> 01:50:56,479
Speaker 1: he'd learned with British people. Right in this article he

1826
01:50:56,520 --> 01:51:00,160
Speaker 1: wrote a picture post and he was very much into

1827
01:51:00,320 --> 01:51:02,959
Speaker 1: Molotov cocktails is a great way of fighting an invasion,

1828
01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:05,400
Speaker 1: much like actually the old guy you heard, did you

1829
01:51:05,400 --> 01:51:08,760
Speaker 1: hear the guy who called into NPR recently? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1830
01:51:08,800 --> 01:51:12,519
Speaker 1: he was outstanding, just just turning NPR into our how

1831
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:15,400
Speaker 1: to do gorilla warfare. And so what they did they

1832
01:51:15,439 --> 01:51:18,200
Speaker 1: made this thing called the number seventy six grenade, and

1833
01:51:18,240 --> 01:51:21,599
Speaker 1: they made six million of them, I think Jesus Christ.

1834
01:51:21,920 --> 01:51:23,960
Speaker 1: And they still find them. It's funny, they'll still find

1835
01:51:24,000 --> 01:51:25,640
Speaker 1: them in like when they'll be digging the foundation for

1836
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:27,479
Speaker 1: a building. They'll be like, oh shit, this is not

1837
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:30,720
Speaker 1: a box of beer. And what those had was a

1838
01:51:30,720 --> 01:51:33,360
Speaker 1: strip of rubber that they dropped in it. It was

1839
01:51:33,400 --> 01:51:35,840
Speaker 1: in a bottle with a cap, and it had a

1840
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:38,120
Speaker 1: phosphorus ignitor actually, so you didn't have to light it,

1841
01:51:38,200 --> 01:51:41,879
Speaker 1: you just hosted it. And yeah, and those were extremely effective.

1842
01:51:41,880 --> 01:51:46,759
Speaker 1: The rubber dissolves and then that allows the flaming liquid

1843
01:51:46,760 --> 01:51:50,080
Speaker 1: to adhere better to the person or thing that is hit. Right,

1844
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:54,679
Speaker 1: and you're almost like making a napalm bark, yes exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1845
01:51:54,720 --> 01:51:57,160
Speaker 1: and the phosphorus will last for a long time. It's

1846
01:51:57,320 --> 01:52:00,400
Speaker 1: much less risky to the thrower and you and also

1847
01:52:00,520 --> 01:52:03,720
Speaker 1: have a whole box of them and just keep throwing them, right.

1848
01:52:03,760 --> 01:52:05,080
Speaker 1: You don't have to light each one, you don't have

1849
01:52:05,160 --> 01:52:07,800
Speaker 1: to have someone else like each one. So those seem

1850
01:52:07,840 --> 01:52:09,800
Speaker 1: pretty effective. I don't know if they were ever really

1851
01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:14,160
Speaker 1: used in anger, because obviously the Nazis never landed in

1852
01:52:14,160 --> 01:52:18,000
Speaker 1: the UK, but yeah, that was that was a pretty

1853
01:52:18,040 --> 01:52:21,040
Speaker 1: big development, and that kind of set the tone for

1854
01:52:21,080 --> 01:52:24,080
Speaker 1: the other developments which I've seen, at least. I'm not

1855
01:52:24,160 --> 01:52:28,080
Speaker 1: like a Molotov expert. But people put sugar in them,

1856
01:52:28,400 --> 01:52:31,160
Speaker 1: people put polystyrene in them or what do you call that?

1857
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:34,400
Speaker 1: What does sugar in them do? I think it gives

1858
01:52:34,439 --> 01:52:38,400
Speaker 1: it a higher viscosity, and I think they sort of

1859
01:52:38,800 --> 01:52:43,280
Speaker 1: it maybe melts when they like sticks. It like creates

1860
01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:45,479
Speaker 1: like a sticky kind of hot, like like if you're

1861
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:48,840
Speaker 1: making toffee. I would imagine, Um, the big thing I've

1862
01:52:48,840 --> 01:52:52,120
Speaker 1: seen people putting in them is various like plastics. Right,

1863
01:52:52,200 --> 01:52:55,000
Speaker 1: So when you look at the You've seen these videos

1864
01:52:55,040 --> 01:52:57,479
Speaker 1: of old ladies in Ukraine with cheese graters just grating

1865
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:00,559
Speaker 1: like packing styrofoam, and they put at in there, and

1866
01:53:00,600 --> 01:53:03,280
Speaker 1: that that does the same thing, right, creates a more

1867
01:53:03,520 --> 01:53:06,880
Speaker 1: viscous kind of napalm which adheres to the thing that

1868
01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:09,000
Speaker 1: you throw at. And that I think if you're talking

1869
01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:12,240
Speaker 1: about persuading someone that their tank is on fire, if

1870
01:53:12,680 --> 01:53:15,400
Speaker 1: it keeps burning for ten twenty seconds, you know you

1871
01:53:15,439 --> 01:53:17,360
Speaker 1: don't have a very long time to get out of

1872
01:53:17,400 --> 01:53:20,800
Speaker 1: a BMP, so you're going to start getting out, I

1873
01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:22,760
Speaker 1: would imagine. Well, and that does point to like an

1874
01:53:22,760 --> 01:53:26,040
Speaker 1: interesting reality of like not just this war all war,

1875
01:53:26,160 --> 01:53:30,040
Speaker 1: but like specifically in the context of territorial kind of

1876
01:53:30,120 --> 01:53:35,760
Speaker 1: volunteers who are on paper terribly out gunned. Um. But

1877
01:53:35,880 --> 01:53:38,120
Speaker 1: the psychological dimension is that, like you said, if you

1878
01:53:38,120 --> 01:53:40,880
Speaker 1: can convince people they may be in an armored vehicle

1879
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:44,240
Speaker 1: that has unquestioned supremacy over the partisans attacking them. But

1880
01:53:44,280 --> 01:53:46,680
Speaker 1: if you can convince them they are on fire, they

1881
01:53:46,680 --> 01:53:49,200
Speaker 1: will make decisions that lead them to no longer have

1882
01:53:49,560 --> 01:53:53,080
Speaker 1: the advantage in terms of firepower. It's not impossible to do. Yeah,

1883
01:53:53,160 --> 01:53:54,839
Speaker 1: I think you saw that. I think there's some footage

1884
01:53:54,840 --> 01:53:57,879
Speaker 1: from my dan of them sort of ambushing some armored vehicles.

1885
01:53:57,920 --> 01:54:00,080
Speaker 1: And yet once you throw half a dozen monitor of

1886
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:03,320
Speaker 1: cocktails from above at windows, you can only get those

1887
01:54:03,320 --> 01:54:05,400
Speaker 1: people to abandon their vehicle and run away. That's the goal.

1888
01:54:05,439 --> 01:54:07,120
Speaker 1: If they get out, there are a lot more vulnerable

1889
01:54:07,120 --> 01:54:10,080
Speaker 1: to further attacks from molotov cocktails or anything else. Right,

1890
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:13,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it. It really plays into that

1891
01:54:13,360 --> 01:54:18,960
Speaker 1: kind of gorilla or sort of like underdog side of conflict. Yeah.

1892
01:54:19,000 --> 01:54:20,720
Speaker 1: One of the things that's interesting to them about me.

1893
01:54:20,760 --> 01:54:22,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you and I just finished this series that

1894
01:54:22,640 --> 01:54:25,160
Speaker 1: dealt heavily with like three D printed weapons, homemade guns

1895
01:54:25,160 --> 01:54:27,400
Speaker 1: and stuff. But you know, there's a lot that you,

1896
01:54:27,520 --> 01:54:31,200
Speaker 1: as the state can do to reduce people's access to firearms,

1897
01:54:31,320 --> 01:54:34,360
Speaker 1: or even to reduce people's access to like knives that

1898
01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:36,120
Speaker 1: are bigger than kitchen knives. A lot you can do

1899
01:54:36,160 --> 01:54:39,480
Speaker 1: to reduce people's access to conventional arms, but everywhere has

1900
01:54:39,520 --> 01:54:43,480
Speaker 1: got liquor. Yeah, exactly, it's almost impossible to stop people

1901
01:54:43,560 --> 01:54:49,120
Speaker 1: having them. Right, If you have gasoline, diesel, alcohol, and

1902
01:54:49,240 --> 01:54:53,120
Speaker 1: glass things and fabric and lighter, you have access to these.

1903
01:54:53,200 --> 01:54:57,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, they're accessible to everyone, and they are incredibly effective. Like,

1904
01:54:57,600 --> 01:54:59,640
Speaker 1: they're probably the most effective thing that you could make

1905
01:54:59,680 --> 01:55:03,000
Speaker 1: in your home if you were doing an insurgency or

1906
01:55:03,080 --> 01:55:08,240
Speaker 1: fighting Russian invaders in this case. Yeah, well, James, was

1907
01:55:08,240 --> 01:55:09,840
Speaker 1: there anything else you wanted to get into on the

1908
01:55:09,840 --> 01:55:15,440
Speaker 1: subject of molotos or other forms of cocktails? Yeah, let

1909
01:55:15,480 --> 01:55:18,280
Speaker 1: me think I should probably say that it's probably illegal

1910
01:55:18,320 --> 01:55:21,000
Speaker 1: to make them in the United States. I mean, there

1911
01:55:21,000 --> 01:55:23,600
Speaker 1: are specific ways you legally can, but you you need

1912
01:55:23,640 --> 01:55:26,200
Speaker 1: a number of different permits. Yeah. Yeah, you do have

1913
01:55:26,280 --> 01:55:30,120
Speaker 1: to ask the government. So I probably wouldn't suggest to

1914
01:55:30,160 --> 01:55:33,960
Speaker 1: do Yes, you have to, I probably wouldn't suggest doing that,

1915
01:55:34,040 --> 01:55:36,720
Speaker 1: But no, I think it's always interesting to look at

1916
01:55:36,720 --> 01:55:41,839
Speaker 1: these like, if we want to move towards a world

1917
01:55:41,920 --> 01:55:45,000
Speaker 1: where there is less authority more freedom, then these things

1918
01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:47,640
Speaker 1: which take away the state's monopoly on the ability to

1919
01:55:47,680 --> 01:55:50,480
Speaker 1: do violence should always be not necessarily like things that

1920
01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:53,360
Speaker 1: we want that. It's interesting. Yeah, that's one of the

1921
01:55:53,360 --> 01:55:57,040
Speaker 1: things that's fascinating to me. Obviously, Ukraine is a pretty

1922
01:55:57,080 --> 01:56:01,440
Speaker 1: standard government within the global or at least up until

1923
01:56:01,440 --> 01:56:03,480
Speaker 1: this point, has been like they are. They are a

1924
01:56:03,600 --> 01:56:06,120
Speaker 1: state that has done a number of ugly things in

1925
01:56:06,120 --> 01:56:08,400
Speaker 1: its past, and we'll do them in the future. But

1926
01:56:08,480 --> 01:56:12,400
Speaker 1: they're in this fascinating moment where the government has really

1927
01:56:12,480 --> 01:56:16,480
Speaker 1: set down any claim to a monopoly on force in

1928
01:56:16,560 --> 01:56:19,600
Speaker 1: a lot of fascinating ways, the kind of widespread here's

1929
01:56:19,600 --> 01:56:21,800
Speaker 1: how to make a molotov, here's how to disable And

1930
01:56:22,080 --> 01:56:24,120
Speaker 1: one of the things that's fascinating, the Ukrainian government very

1931
01:56:24,120 --> 01:56:26,360
Speaker 1: famously sent around sheets which are like, here is where

1932
01:56:26,400 --> 01:56:28,720
Speaker 1: to throw molotovs to do the most damage. Different Russian

1933
01:56:28,800 --> 01:56:33,200
Speaker 1: vehicles are also Ukrainian vehicles. Yeah, yeah, and also those

1934
01:56:33,280 --> 01:56:36,800
Speaker 1: vehicles now belong to random farmers, Like I saw that

1935
01:56:36,920 --> 01:56:38,800
Speaker 1: was a thing with the Ukrainian equivalent of the I

1936
01:56:38,960 --> 01:56:40,880
Speaker 1: R S who said, like, don't worry, you don't need

1937
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:44,080
Speaker 1: to declare this tank on your income tax. Right, how

1938
01:56:44,120 --> 01:56:47,320
Speaker 1: does one tax a person who has a tank? Yeah,

1939
01:56:47,960 --> 01:56:50,040
Speaker 1: or in the case of some of them, has a

1940
01:56:50,120 --> 01:56:54,320
Speaker 1: twenty million dollar anti aircraft system. Yeah, who is the

1941
01:56:54,360 --> 01:56:56,960
Speaker 1: tax man who is willing to go and collect that?

1942
01:56:57,240 --> 01:57:00,920
Speaker 1: Like they have become ungovernable, right, yeah, I mean it's

1943
01:57:01,120 --> 01:57:03,360
Speaker 1: we're they are in the thick of it, and maybe

1944
01:57:03,440 --> 01:57:05,360
Speaker 1: for the rest of all of our lives. Nobody knows

1945
01:57:05,360 --> 01:57:07,400
Speaker 1: how long this thing is going to last. But if

1946
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:10,520
Speaker 1: if the war does end in any kind of reasonable

1947
01:57:10,520 --> 01:57:14,800
Speaker 1: time frame, the what's Ukraine going back to. I don't

1948
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:17,600
Speaker 1: know how they go back to being a normal state

1949
01:57:18,040 --> 01:57:21,240
Speaker 1: when they have when they have opened the floodgates to everyone.

1950
01:57:21,360 --> 01:57:23,880
Speaker 1: Is the army now? Well? I think it's Yeah, it

1951
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:25,880
Speaker 1: calls into question number things, right, like that maybe you

1952
01:57:25,960 --> 01:57:29,680
Speaker 1: don't necessarily always need is very strict disciplinary and structure

1953
01:57:29,760 --> 01:57:35,000
Speaker 1: to fight very effectively. But also yeah, that like do

1954
01:57:35,080 --> 01:57:37,480
Speaker 1: you need the state? Right? People are just doing their

1955
01:57:37,520 --> 01:57:39,760
Speaker 1: own thing right now, and I yeah, I don't know

1956
01:57:39,800 --> 01:57:41,840
Speaker 1: how you already take that back? Like how do you

1957
01:57:41,880 --> 01:57:43,920
Speaker 1: go and collect the tanks from people? They know how

1958
01:57:43,960 --> 01:57:47,000
Speaker 1: to kill tanks, that's what they've been doing. Yeah, the

1959
01:57:47,120 --> 01:57:49,960
Speaker 1: Ukrainian government in the future, if we imagine a time

1960
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:52,600
Speaker 1: of people piece, it'll be quite a while before there's

1961
01:57:52,640 --> 01:57:55,360
Speaker 1: any chance of like, well we better send in the

1962
01:57:55,440 --> 01:57:58,320
Speaker 1: riot troops to crack down on this protest. It's like, no,

1963
01:57:58,360 --> 01:58:00,000
Speaker 1: you're not going to get those riot troops to go

1964
01:58:00,000 --> 01:58:04,360
Speaker 1: anywhere near there. Yeah, Like, yeah, we're testing out this

1965
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:07,600
Speaker 1: armed society as a polite society thesis, right, But yeah,

1966
01:58:07,640 --> 01:58:10,400
Speaker 1: I don't know how the police return to a country

1967
01:58:10,440 --> 01:58:14,000
Speaker 1: which is seemingly at least holding off, if not defeating,

1968
01:58:14,360 --> 01:58:19,000
Speaker 1: a military superpower. Yeah. It is a fascinating question, and

1969
01:58:19,000 --> 01:58:21,040
Speaker 1: and no one really has a clear answer, but I

1970
01:58:21,080 --> 01:58:23,920
Speaker 1: do think it's interesting. Of course they have embraced the

1971
01:58:23,920 --> 01:58:26,680
Speaker 1: Molotov as you've kind of made the case here that's

1972
01:58:26,760 --> 01:58:30,800
Speaker 1: it really has this history as this great kind of

1973
01:58:30,840 --> 01:58:35,600
Speaker 1: democratizing force within the conflicts between people and governments and

1974
01:58:35,680 --> 01:58:38,840
Speaker 1: governments and governments. Yeah, and and people in capital, right,

1975
01:58:38,880 --> 01:58:41,440
Speaker 1: Like if you're prepared to destroy capital goods like people

1976
01:58:41,480 --> 01:58:43,400
Speaker 1: have done for centuries, and that that seems to be

1977
01:58:43,480 --> 01:58:46,560
Speaker 1: the way to make change. Right. It's kind of interesting,

1978
01:58:46,640 --> 01:58:48,680
Speaker 1: I think, to reflect on from our me and my podcast,

1979
01:58:48,680 --> 01:58:51,240
Speaker 1: I thought was that they had very strict gun ownership

1980
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:54,320
Speaker 1: laws before this, very very strict apart from from one

1981
01:58:54,320 --> 01:58:57,560
Speaker 1: ethnic group called the Chin. But what they've promised to

1982
01:58:57,600 --> 01:59:00,080
Speaker 1: do afterwards, at least according to our sources is to

1983
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:04,320
Speaker 1: allow people to keep and bear arms, right, because I

1984
01:59:04,360 --> 01:59:06,680
Speaker 1: guess they kind of have to write because a they

1985
01:59:06,720 --> 01:59:08,880
Speaker 1: can't stop them anymore. These people are three D printing

1986
01:59:08,920 --> 01:59:12,640
Speaker 1: guns and be the only way they got freedom or

1987
01:59:12,960 --> 01:59:14,880
Speaker 1: if this is if the if they're able to defeat

1988
01:59:14,920 --> 01:59:18,160
Speaker 1: the Tapmador, then the only way they've they've become free

1989
01:59:18,280 --> 01:59:20,480
Speaker 1: is through fighting for their freedom. And it seems that

1990
01:59:20,520 --> 01:59:22,840
Speaker 1: they're not going to be willing to give that up,

1991
01:59:23,200 --> 01:59:25,440
Speaker 1: especially for the ethnic groups there. So yeah, it's really

1992
01:59:25,440 --> 01:59:29,360
Speaker 1: interesting to see, like what kind of a state emerges

1993
01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:33,280
Speaker 1: from a sort of uh, what's the sort of world

1994
01:59:33,360 --> 01:59:35,840
Speaker 1: like Like it's it's not an authoritarian structure, right, the

1995
01:59:35,840 --> 01:59:37,800
Speaker 1: militaries are not like a lot of people in Ukraine

1996
01:59:37,800 --> 01:59:40,880
Speaker 1: are not necessarily authoritarian instructures. So what emerges for the

1997
01:59:40,960 --> 01:59:44,600
Speaker 1: state when we've had this horizontal resistance? Yeah, these are

1998
01:59:44,640 --> 01:59:47,520
Speaker 1: These are fascinating questions and ones that I think will

1999
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:50,400
Speaker 1: all be continuing to ask and answer for for the

2000
01:59:50,440 --> 01:59:53,160
Speaker 1: foreseeable future. For now, do you have anything you want

2001
01:59:53,160 --> 01:59:55,800
Speaker 1: to plug before we were all out? James M No.

2002
01:59:55,960 --> 01:59:57,720
Speaker 1: You should listen to our podcast on MIMMA. You can

2003
01:59:57,760 --> 02:00:02,200
Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter. That's my name at stout Patreon.

2004
02:00:02,240 --> 02:00:05,000
Speaker 1: I write some other things. I teach at the community college.

2005
02:00:05,040 --> 02:00:06,560
Speaker 1: If you want to take some history courses, we can

2006
02:00:06,640 --> 02:00:10,640
Speaker 1: learn about molotovs. Have a lecture about that. But otherwise no,

2007
02:00:10,920 --> 02:00:13,480
Speaker 1: that's about well, that's gonna do it for us here

2008
02:00:13,600 --> 02:00:17,520
Speaker 1: until next time. Don't make a molotov if it's illegal

2009
02:00:17,520 --> 02:00:21,120
Speaker 1: where you live. But but do think about molotovs, because,

2010
02:00:21,160 --> 02:00:23,400
Speaker 1: as the last couple of weeks have shown us, you

2011
02:00:23,440 --> 02:00:26,040
Speaker 1: could by next week be living in a state where

2012
02:00:26,080 --> 02:00:28,960
Speaker 1: it's very legal to make molotov cocktails. That could happen

2013
02:00:28,960 --> 02:00:30,840
Speaker 1: to any of us. You never know, you know, you

2014
02:00:30,920 --> 02:00:34,520
Speaker 1: never know, So you know, do some reading online, use

2015
02:00:34,600 --> 02:00:38,640
Speaker 1: a use a VP a VPN to do that reading browser.

2016
02:00:38,720 --> 02:00:42,320
Speaker 1: If you're gonna be how to make molotov, do some

2017
02:00:42,480 --> 02:00:45,520
Speaker 1: very careful reading, and um, you know, keep an eye

2018
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:54,800
Speaker 1: on the world. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more

2019
02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:57,520
Speaker 1: episodes every week from now until the heat death of

2020
02:00:57,520 --> 02:01:00,120
Speaker 1: the universe. It could happen. Here is a production of

2021
02:01:00,120 --> 02:01:03,080
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

2022
02:01:03,160 --> 02:01:05,600
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

2023
02:01:05,680 --> 02:01:07,960
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

2024
02:01:08,040 --> 02:01:11,080
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts you can find sources

2025
02:01:11,080 --> 02:01:13,680
Speaker 1: for It could happen here. Updated monthly at cool Zone

2026
02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:16,440
Speaker 1: media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.