WEBVTT - A Conversation with RAINN | BONUS | Saskia’s Story

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal. Today we have

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<v Speaker 1>another bonus episode on our show. We tackle sensitive topics

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<v Speaker 1>from rape and child sexual abuse to financial fraud and

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<v Speaker 1>identity theft. We handle this work with a lot of care,

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<v Speaker 1>using trauma informed interviewing techniques, consulting mental health experts, and

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<v Speaker 1>communicating with our subjects in every step of production. But

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<v Speaker 1>we're always trying to do better and to evolve as

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<v Speaker 1>our culture evolves. That's why last year we reached out

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<v Speaker 1>to RAIN, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. Throughout

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<v Speaker 1>season five, they've been advising us on ways to approach

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<v Speaker 1>our work with survivors. Recently, I sat down with Jennifer

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<v Speaker 1>Simmons Kaliba. She's rain's vice president of Communications. I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to share a bit of our conversation with you and

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<v Speaker 1>to give you a look into the kinds of conversations

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<v Speaker 1>we're all having a Betrayal I hope you enjoy. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you tell us a little bit about yourself and your

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<v Speaker 1>position at RAIN and what RAIN is.

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<v Speaker 2>RAIN is the nation's largest anti sexual violence organization. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>the vice president of Communications, so my role is to

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<v Speaker 2>ensure that people are more aware and educated about what

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<v Speaker 2>sexual violence is. And the work that I get to

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<v Speaker 2>do is make sure that more people understand that the

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<v Speaker 2>resources are there, that they are not alone, and that

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<v Speaker 2>if you or somebody in your life is experience sexual violence,

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<v Speaker 2>that you have people to turn to.

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<v Speaker 1>How would you define Rain's role in working with Betrayal.

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<v Speaker 2>So, one of the things that RAIN does is we

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<v Speaker 2>work with entertainment companies and studios and producers to insert

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<v Speaker 2>and establish responsible and relevant storytelling in the jarny of

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<v Speaker 2>making people more aware through storytelling about sexual violence. So

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<v Speaker 2>we worked with you guys. We did a responsible storytelling

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<v Speaker 2>training session with you. We've worked with you when it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to interviewing survivors during season five of Betrayal, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's just been such a pleasure to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>be a part of both the education and also the

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<v Speaker 2>advancement of this responsible storytelling that you guys are doing

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<v Speaker 2>a Betrayal.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, when I look back on the canon of Betrayal,

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<v Speaker 1>there are certain things that our team would probably write

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<v Speaker 1>differently today. I'm curious from your point of view, when

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<v Speaker 1>you look back on a body of work that still

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<v Speaker 1>survives and exists in the world and is there for

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<v Speaker 1>people to meet it at any given time. What type

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<v Speaker 1>of obligation do creators and writers have to address that

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<v Speaker 1>work if it's outdated culturally with language like what do

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<v Speaker 1>you feel is the obligation of those producers and creators.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a really interesting question, particularly for something that you

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<v Speaker 2>put out into the world and then still have some

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<v Speaker 2>measure of control over. You produce a movie or a film,

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<v Speaker 2>you produce a book, and it goes out there, and

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<v Speaker 2>the level of effort that it would take to recut, redo,

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<v Speaker 2>republish all of that is a challenge. But for serialized

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<v Speaker 2>shows like yours, the question of going back and looking

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<v Speaker 2>at the things that you wish you had done differently

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<v Speaker 2>is a really valid one. And I think what I

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<v Speaker 2>hope people who are creating this kind of content do

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<v Speaker 2>is that they give themselves a degree of grace for

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<v Speaker 2>what they knew at the time and for the best

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<v Speaker 2>that they were doing at a time, and that if

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<v Speaker 2>they get it really wrong, that they have some sort

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<v Speaker 2>of clear discussion or apology or hey, that really was

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<v Speaker 2>not what I wanted to do, and then they move

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<v Speaker 2>forward and change the behavior, and then they change how

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<v Speaker 2>they approach, because that's really the measure, and that's really

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<v Speaker 2>where the learning happens.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think one of the places that we often

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<v Speaker 1>struggle with is the language around victim and survivor. And

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious if there is like a hard and fast

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<v Speaker 1>rule for you in terms of that language.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The hard and fast rule is it's what the person

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<v Speaker 2>wants to be called and respecting that and respecting what

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<v Speaker 2>it means to them. And then the idea that if

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<v Speaker 2>you get it wrong, you say that somebody is something

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<v Speaker 2>that they don't feel they want to be, you change it,

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<v Speaker 2>you say you're sorry, you change it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's interesting because we tell stories over ten episodes, and

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<v Speaker 1>in those ten episodes where we're talking about one person's story,

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<v Speaker 1>it's one person's journey, so episode to episode, they can

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<v Speaker 1>be in a different place in relation to what happened

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<v Speaker 1>to them, and that language can be tricky to know.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think you're validating something for me, which is

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<v Speaker 1>having constant conversations with our storytellers to feel like, at

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<v Speaker 1>this point in the story, how would you identify it?

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<v Speaker 1>You know? Yeah, but also holding in consideration where the

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<v Speaker 1>audience is meeting this person in this journey too. So

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<v Speaker 1>for season two of Betrayal, I remember a big discussion

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<v Speaker 1>was does our audience know what c SAM is and

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<v Speaker 1>does our audience know why we can't say what people

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<v Speaker 1>would colloquially say that material is curious what your thoughts

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<v Speaker 1>are even just saying it as a manner of explaining

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<v Speaker 1>and showing why we're not going that route, like how

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<v Speaker 1>how do you feel about that?

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<v Speaker 2>We talked about this with media training a lot. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to say the words that people will say.

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<v Speaker 2>So you're going to say kitty porn, that's what ces.

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<v Speaker 2>It's kitty porn. No no, no no. But when you

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<v Speaker 2>say child's sexual abuse material, for the person who has

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<v Speaker 2>no connection, they have no idea what that actually means.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know that that person, if they knew what

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<v Speaker 2>it meant, they'd be like, oh my god, that's horrible.

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<v Speaker 2>So like explaining and breaking down why the sentence doesn't work,

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<v Speaker 2>but acknowledging that people may need to see that to

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<v Speaker 2>make that next connection is important and that's something that

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<v Speaker 2>in the media people are now getting really comfortable with.

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<v Speaker 2>But if we go back to the beginnings of RAIN

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<v Speaker 2>in the nineties, when we were trying to get people

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<v Speaker 2>to recognize that this issue was important, networks weren't saying

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<v Speaker 2>rape on TV, right, and it's so important, So you know,

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<v Speaker 2>euphemisms around rape as a storytelling device because you couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>say the words like so, how important is it to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to say, you know all these all these

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<v Speaker 2>kind of work around phrases, what you're actually talking about

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<v Speaker 2>is rape. And that's actually something I saw with Saskia

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<v Speaker 2>a season and it struck me. One of her friends

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<v Speaker 2>saw the videos and instantly the words that came out

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<v Speaker 2>of her mouth were She's being raped. There was no hesitation,

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<v Speaker 2>no working around it. No, her husband is doing something

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<v Speaker 2>terrible to nothing, she was raped. That is progress. You

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<v Speaker 2>go from not talking about rape, not saying the word

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<v Speaker 2>rape thirty some odd years ago, to a everyday individual

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<v Speaker 2>who is looking at something happening through the lens to

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<v Speaker 2>a intimate partner violence and naming it, naming it immediately.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the kind of progress we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>Then, my producer Caitlin chimed in.

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<v Speaker 3>In season three, we were telling the story from the

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<v Speaker 3>perspective of both Stacy and Tyler, Tyler being a child

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<v Speaker 3>victim of sexual abuse and Stacy being a mother who

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<v Speaker 3>had her life absolutely torn apart by what her husband

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<v Speaker 3>did to her Son. I think as a show we've

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<v Speaker 3>changed our approach a little bit in how we've learned

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<v Speaker 3>to balance the perspectives of multiple victims without getting into

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<v Speaker 3>that comparative trauma piece. And I also think as creators

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<v Speaker 3>we struggle with, well, are there ways we could have

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<v Speaker 3>done even better as storytellers and doing right by the

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<v Speaker 3>victim of child abuse? So, at Rain, when you think

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<v Speaker 3>about that issue of how do you tell stories from

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<v Speaker 3>the perspectives of multiple victims, what are some of the

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<v Speaker 3>strategies that come to mind.

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<v Speaker 2>To the point of comparative trauma in any kind of storytelling.

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<v Speaker 2>I think about it as a handful of different size

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<v Speaker 2>rocks that you throw into water. No matter the size

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<v Speaker 2>of the rock, there is a ripple, But every single

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<v Speaker 2>person is the same of their own ripple. Every single

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<v Speaker 2>person is feeling a impact, feeling a ramification, an emotion.

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<v Speaker 2>They're all coming to it from their own center of

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<v Speaker 2>the story. And as long as we acknowledge that everybody's

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<v Speaker 2>ripples matter to that person at the center of them,

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<v Speaker 2>then we can stop comparing the trauma of other people

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<v Speaker 2>and then just start thinking about the individual humans involved.

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<v Speaker 1>To me, it's not a zero sum their space for

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<v Speaker 1>every version of this conversation, and that's something that we're

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<v Speaker 1>often discussing. You know, I knew that the way that

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<v Speaker 1>Stacey and Teason three, the way that she talked about

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<v Speaker 1>her ex husband, would be really difficult for people to hear.

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<v Speaker 1>But I also knew that there were people who were

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<v Speaker 1>alone in bed in the middle of the night, staring

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<v Speaker 1>at their ceiling thinking, I just wish my life could

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<v Speaker 1>go back to before times, before the knowing, before everything

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<v Speaker 1>came apart, was.

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<v Speaker 2>The version of my life where I didn't have to

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<v Speaker 2>be wrestling with all of these terrible thoughts and feelings.

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<v Speaker 2>And Yeah, the purpose of all of these different viewpoints

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<v Speaker 2>is really what do you want people in the end

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to connect to?

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<v Speaker 1>The clarity for me is purpose is just doing it intentionally?

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<v Speaker 1>What is the purpose? If one person feels less a

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<v Speaker 1>long by listening to this, we've done our job because

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<v Speaker 1>that was the intention going into the project. Yeah, well,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for everything that you do, and thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for everything that Rain does and contributes, and thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for contributing to Betrayal