WEBVTT - The Star Trek Economy 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.200 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:13.720 Forward Thinking. He don't even welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.239 podcast that most of the future, and says, but tell 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.200 him while he wanders his starry ce remember remember me. 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.280 I'm Jonathan Strickland, I'm Lauren Focan, and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:30.120 And today we're tackling another listener request episode about economics. Yeah, 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:32.400 if you listen to our last episode about will the 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.360 robots take our jobs? You know already what we're going 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.320 to tackle today. Now. Of course, this isn't the kind 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:43.040 of ben Stein economics hopefully where we talk about what 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:48.400 is it ben Stein talks about it? Don't voodoo economics? Yeah, no, 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:50.520 this is uh, this is gonna be some sci fi 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:54.400 economics here. So our listener, George wrote in, I believe 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:58.560 from Facebook. No on at our email address, email, which 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.880 is FW thinking at stuff works dot Com? We have email? 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.119 Is the incredible future? You thinking at how stuff works? 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.800 Dot COMW thinking dot Com FW thinking it how stuff 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:14.120 works dot No? No, no, no, no, no dot com 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.479 dot com. Did George have to say, Lauren? George said, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:18.880 I would suggest that you do a podcast about the 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.039 economic systems of the future, i e. Star Trek. Does 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.240 anyone get paid for their work on enterprise for Voyager 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.000 Deep Space nine? Obviously, our current economic system has had 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.600 changes in the past a hundred years, electronic payments, online 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.920 banking and the like. Thanks for reading this, George, Thank 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.679 you George. And uh yeah, first of all, did you 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.840 guys recognize where the lyric came from? Now? That lyric 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:48.040 is from the unsung unpublished to the general public lyrics 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.600 to the Star Trek theme song and the original series. Yeah, 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:54.600 great story about that involves economics. I'll tell you after 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.280 the podcast because it doesn't really pertain to the actual 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:02.640 discussion here. Fine, not cool. So the theme was written 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.920 by a guy named Courage. He wrote the theme and 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.160 he was getting residuals for that theme whenever Star Trek 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.440 was playing. Rod and Berry had an agreement with Courage 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:13.839 that said that he could write lyrics to the theme. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.680 So after the fact, Rodd and Berry wrote lyrics knowing 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.320 that they would never ever be sung because it meant 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:24.160 that he got a cut of those residuals, which effectively 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:29.080 had the amount of money that Courage was getting. So 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:34.440 the future of the economy, well, let's look at the 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.080 economy of Star Trek because I'm interested in this too. 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.600 I think it's really cool. Uh And obviously, Star Trek 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.680 is a fictional system. It's not like we're reporting on 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.160 something that has actually happened. But I do think he 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:50.040 gives us a very interesting framework for imagining how certain 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.720 types of future economies might play out. So what does 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:59.680 money look like on Star Trek and the Star Trek universe, jobs, economies, cash, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.000 what does it all mean? Well, Gene Roddenberry, despite his 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:08.800 apparently slightly problematic business practice, well we'll call it ethically questionable. 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:14.680 He he. He admittedly designed Star Trek partially as this utopia, 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.000 this post scarcity utopia where everyone has what they need. 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:22.440 Yeah he uh he. After the fact, after the first 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.000 series started to air, began to kind of lay down 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.680 some rules. But those rules were not hard and fast 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.919 early on. So there are some contradictions. First of all, 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.560 we have to admit that in the Star Trek universe 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:38.360 you have lots of different cultures. The one that the 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.920 Enterprise is from is from the United Federation of Planets, 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:45.560 which has Earth is kind of its central member, and 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.680 so we often talk about their not being any money 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.600 in Star Trek. What we're really referring to is that Federation. 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.240 We're not talking about the universe as a whole, because 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.760 there are other societies like the Farringhi that do still 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.200 use money. So this isn't just cut and dry stuff. 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.640 They're actually contradictions within the Star Trek episodes themselves. So 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.560 for example, at one point, Kirk offers to pay some 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:12.760 miners on Rigel twelve for lithium crystals, not di lithium, 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.360 just playing old lithium crystals. In another episode, he claims, 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.200 quote the Federation has invested a great deal of money 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.760 in our training end quote. And another one spot even 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.040 goes so far as to start exactly saying how much 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.440 how many Federation credits have been spent in his training. 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:30.839 It's one of those, you know, funny little moments. Do 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:32.680 you have any idea how much money they spend on you? 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.640 One of one of those Whagni mcady dudes um Scotty 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.480 In Star Trek six the Undiscovered Country claims that he's 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.839 going to go and buy a boat, So that suggests 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.000 he's actually going to purchase something. You'd need to have 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.360 something to purchase things with. He's going to go buy 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:53.840 it from the Ferenghi maybe so. Uh. Even in Star 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.440 Trek the Next Generation we have mentioned of money. The 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:00.159 Federation offers one point five million quote Federation credits end 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.599 quote for the Bars and Wormhole in the episode The 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:07.760 Price Uh, Cisco's father on Deep Space nine he owns 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.120 a restaurant in New Orleans. So does he just open 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:12.880 the doors and let people come on in and eat 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.680 for free? Or are they paying for this food? Do 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:17.760 they have to wash the dishes? There's no is there 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.000 no root to do that? Yeah? Well, actually that's a 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.120 good point. In Star Trek the use of robots is 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.719 criminally underrepresented. But well we'll get into that. So, well, 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.359 what's the okay, So you've outlined the contradictions, but what 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:34.240 is the party line? What's the real what do they say? 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.000 Run Berry was saying that there wasn't going to be 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.040 any actual money with the Federation, that that they had 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.320 evolved beyond money, And in fact a lot of the 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:46.359 other references we find are along with that. So for example, 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.440 Star Trek four the Voyage Home, Kirk at one point 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:53.320 is talking with a person from our present who says 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:55.760 don't they have money? Like, do you not have money 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:57.960 in the twenty century, and he's like, no, we don't. 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.760 Picard mentions that money quote doesn't exist in the twenty 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.800 four century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.320 driving force in our lives. End quote. I'm being superior 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:13.279 to you as only Jean loup Acard can be. You 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.000 should be ashamed of yourself. And then, according to Paris 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.480 on Voyager, the economy of star Trek took shape in 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.560 the twenty second century when quote money went the way 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.160 of the dinosaur. In quote fort mix becomes a museum. 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.760 So the money was killed by a combination of climate 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:33.080 change in an asteroid impact. But it implies so um, 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.760 but yeah, like I said, asteroid. Sorry. And then then 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.320 that when there when the gold standard for real, I 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.640 know we were technically on it since the seventies, but still, 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.240 uh so the fringy, like I said, they do still 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.880 use money. There's actually some some direct quotes where they 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.520 talk about how look, just because you gave up cash 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.159 doesn't mean the rest of us did. Uh. In fact, 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:59.800 they value a rare liquid metal called latin um. Yeah, 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:04.280 they frequently trade in gold pressed latinum because because latinum 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:08.160 is liquid at room temperature, right, they have to find 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:10.400 it with something like, for example, goal. Yeah, and that's 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:14.040 what that's what allows it to be solid at room temperature. Uh. 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:19.320 And conveniently, this metal can't be replicated because reasons, because 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:23.160 plot reasons. Yeah, there's no like I'm sure someone somewhere 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.560 has gone to the trouble to explain why you cannot 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.240 create latinum in a replicator. But maybe it's because of 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:34.520 the quarks. Yeah, Well, up the issue of the replicator, 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.200 which I think is sort of central to the way 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.040 in which this economy is run. So in Star Trek 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.960 they have replicators, these machines that can produce whatever you 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:48.080 want out of base materials on demand. They essentially convert 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.520 energy into matter. Yeah, and when you have something like this, 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:53.800 it kind of makes sense that there would be no 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.040 such thing as money, because what's the point if you 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.760 can make anything you need basically for free. Yeah, well 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:05.080 except for for specialist goods, is the thing. Uh yeah, yeah, 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.160 you could have what there might be a demand for 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.000 things that are made the old fashioned way, because we're 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:16.200 human and we value that, right. But in large part, 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:20.320 you're talking about the ability to create anything you ever want, uh, 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.400 you know, anything physical you ever want that fits within 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:29.320 the confines of the replicator. You can't like print a spaceship. Uh. 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.319 In fact, there is a scarcity because there's a scarcity 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.840 of spaceships. That actually happens after the Borg invasion. There's 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.880 a problem that they don't have enough spaceships to combat 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.920 the Borg, and so it becomes clear that there is 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.680 a limitation on this ability to convert energy into matter. 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.640 There's also obviously an energy cost. I mean, if you're 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.200 using energy to turn energy into matter, the energy has 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.680 to come from somewhere. But we're at least lead to 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.600 believe that in the future, at least on Earth and 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.280 most of the colonies that are near Earth, there's an 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:07.719 overwhelming energy surplus. So that's it's effectively a non factor. Yeah. Yeah, 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:12.560 we can probably assume that most of the manual labor 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.120 kind of jobs have been automated. Yeah, this is the 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.559 problem that we have where one of the weirdest things 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.760 about Star Trek is you don't see a lot of robots. 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.640 I mean, you've got data who's an android. Those doors 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:26.400 open and close all on their own, and yeah, you 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:28.920 got the doors, but then after that, like every time 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:33.720 something goes wrong, they send Jordie LaForge into the Jeffrey tube. Yeah, 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.440 he's like crawling on his elbows and knees, and like 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.920 there's always that one panel that's four hundred feet down, 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.040 this tiny little thing in your You don't have a 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:46.040 robot to do that. We have robots now that can 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:50.400 do that and do it better, I guess. So. I mean, 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:54.959 there's a lot of questions to come up from this, 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.000 but I will I would suggest that perhaps one of 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.840 the issues here is, well, Joe and I talked about 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.679 this too. We we mentioned that, uh, this is bad 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.840 for narrative obviously if you take the characters out of 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.040 those situations. If we want to follow that same logic, really, 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:14.000 like why are you having Sulu fire the weapons? Shouldn't 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.000 you have an automated system that detects an incoming threat 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:23.959 and responds immediately automatically Take the automation out. I mean, 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:26.200 but at that point, why is he I mean, we 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.800 could ask infinite questions about this, like why is he 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.280 pressing buttons on a panel when really Kirk should be 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.400 able to just say okay, Glass fire the torpedo, Or 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.199 why is Kirk making the decision when obviously an AI 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.839 could make the decision faster and with more ethical consideration, 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:46.200 and well, certainly with more ethical consideration than Kirk. I 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.400 love that that you. I mean that you went with 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.600 the Google glass because now I'm thinking like engage warp drives, 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:58.200 Like where are we going? I'm feeling lucky. Well, obviously 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.320 this points out that the fact that's true a pretty 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.280 much all science fiction, which is that their narrative requirements, 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.720 in order to create a dramatic story, you have to 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.679 have some elements that might not really make sense given 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.959 the technological assumptions of the setting. Yeah, you just kind 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:14.920 of have to overlook that. It's like, the story is 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.320 not going to be interesting if there aren't human characters 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:19.920 doing things. And the fact that we're making it in 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.040 our present means that we're limited somewhat by our our 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.120 imagination of what our personal scope. Yeah, what the user 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.880 interface can be. But there are some other things that 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.560 that kind of throw monkey wrench into this. You know, 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.560 no need for money, you know world. One of those 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:40.120 is that people appear to own personal property. Uh, for example, 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:44.480 you've got Cisco's restaurant, got Chateau Pacard where they still 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:49.000 his family still runs a vineyard, so you've got land. 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:53.120 How did you get the land. Did you have a flag? Flag? 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:56.880 You didn't have a flag. I think this points out 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.600 a potential problem with the whole idea of post scare city, 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.800 because there are some items with value that can't be 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:08.440 replaced even by replicators. As we talked about the whole starships. Uh. 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.959 For example, high quality real estate would be one. You 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.640 might say that by becoming a space faring species, we 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:19.280 could extend the supply of real estate to an effective 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.240 infinity where if you can say, terror form all these 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.360 infinite number of planets out there and colonize them all, 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:29.040 but there would still be a demand for quality real estate, 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.680 the patches of land that are close to the other 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:37.319 things you want to be close to or scenic, or 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.800 the one that's right really close to that pleasure planet, 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.000 or if it's a restaurant at the street corner where 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.520 people would actually walk in. I mean, it's no good 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.439 building a restaurant on the moon and there's nobody, but 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.199 there's there's no money being exchanged. That doesn't matter if 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.719 anyone shows up or not. Well, I don't know that's 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:58.920 a good question. I did we figure out whether money 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.200 was being exchanged or well? Run Barry said that they 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.160 had evolved beyond the need for money. But there's some 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.360 other economists who have different views on this. Yeah, let's 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:12.679 look at what some some modern thinkers have said analyzing 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.760 the Star Trek economy. So I read a series of 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:20.440 three articles, uh that that were published in in various 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:24.160 in different outlets, but they were each in response to 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.400 like one one was an initial article, the next was 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.040 a response to the first one. The third was response 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.600 to the earlier two. So it's one of those fascinating 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.800 things where you get a bunch of people who have 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.760 a lot to say on this issue. They're really well 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.640 versed in both the economics and star Trek, and it 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:46.240 becomes amazing. Uh So, Rick Webb and medium wrote the 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.880 first piece, and it was probably it was the longest 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.960 of the three um and it was all about the 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:57.000 Federation being in a pro to post scarcity economy. Okay, 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.520 so it's not quite post scarcity, but they're getting there exactly. 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.280 He says that the Earth is kind of poised between 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:07.000 still being in that scarcity based economy where things like land, 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.080 you know, you obviously have, especially if you're talking about 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.480 land on Earth, you know, there's a limited amount of that, 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.800 so there's still some things of scarcity. Spaceships are another example. 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:20.120 Spaceships are not uh not unlimited, so not not your 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.520 average person can't just go out and get a space sia. 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.760 But other things are not scarce at all anymore because 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.720 you can make everything with no perceivable cost. So for example, 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:35.400 food in the Star Trek, or clothing, or or houses 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:39.320 or warmth, yeah, pretty much anything else. Yeah, anything you've 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.360 ever seen being made on board the Enterprise. Imagine that 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.640 someone has one of those in their home. They're capable 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.880 of doing the same thing. So he argues that to 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:51.960 get from a priest you know, an actual scarcity based 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.920 market to a post scarcity one will have this interim 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.040 period in which some things are abundant in some places 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.560 and other things will remain scared, either all over the 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:05.000 place or in very particular places. Uh. And that's where 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.480 the proto post scarcity comes in. So he talks about 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.320 episodes of Star Trek where there are planets in the 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:15.800 Federation that are dealing scarcely issues like famine and starvation. 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.200 And I don't I mean, I know that there have 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.440 been episodes like that. It does make you wonder, all right, 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.960 so why why are they in this situation? What led 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.400 to this problem? Well, it's been portrayed from the episodes 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:30.440 that I remember at least as being like either their 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.280 replicators malfunctioned or there was some kind of issue with 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.720 the replicators, or they otherwise got cut off from civilization 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.200 and some interesting plot there might be some energy crisis, 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.000 for example, that whatever whatever they had been using to 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:49.120 produce energy had failed in some fundamental way. So he 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:54.120 proposes that in this economy under normal circumstances, so like 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:58.040 let's say the economy of Federation Earth, Uh, everyone is 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.760 essentially on a welfare benefit and the benefits far exceed 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.840 person's needs. He gave in the arbitrary example of it's 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.520 like every single man, woman, and child is essentially gifted 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.480 ten million dollars and they can do pretty much anything 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.760 they want. However, there are some social pressures that put 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.239 people to, you know, cause people to avoid conspicuous consumption, 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.440 so that no one goes out and buys everything that 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.640 they don't need. And it's kind of funny because conspicuous 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.000 consumption makes a lot less sense if everybody has access 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.800 to tons of money. I mean, the whole idea of 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.680 I'm going to buy a flashy sports car so people 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.520 can see it is to show off your relative value 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.240 compared to other people, right, and every everyone has that 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.720 same value, then there's no point in doing that. Like 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.160 if if everyone has the capability of going out and 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.960 and building that exact same sports car, uh, then it 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:56.160 has no unique value to you anymore. Uh. So the 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:00.400 accumulation of possessions doesn't actually what would cost something, and 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.760 the government itself would keep track of it, according to 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.000 his argument. He says that they would sort of look 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.399 and see how much each person is using. And you 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.760 you have an allotment, a limit to how much you 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:17.800 can use. But that limit is so high that under 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.720 normal circumstances you would never ever deplete it. So you'll 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.760 go through your entire life without ever running anything. Yeah, you'll, 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.800 you'll you're operating at a surplus. Uh. But then he 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.919 suggests that workers are quote unquote paid by having that 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.200 welfare benefit increased by a small amount. In other words, 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:37.399 they get a little bit more than someone who doesn't 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.840 do anything. He says that there's probably gonna be some 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:43.000 jobs that people still need to do. He's he's seeing 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.359 a future where we're never gonna have robots doing absolutely everything, 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.359 they are gonna be some things that humans need to do. 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.160 So how do you give an incentive to someone who 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.240 has access to everything they need for their entire lives 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.680 to go and do this job that other people don't 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.240 want to do. He says, well, you actually, we do 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.680 pay them. You give them a little more of that 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.600 huge amount. So maybe they get ten million, one thousand dollars. 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.480 And he says, sure, in the long run, this doesn't 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.880 mean anything because they already have more than what they require. However, 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.760 on a subconscious level, we humans tend to think I 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.600 want more, and that that would be enough of an 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.760 incentive for people to go and get jobs, even though 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.679 they would never they would never want for anything. Now, 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.320 of course, this is assuming, as you said, that some 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:35.520 menial or unpleasant jobs remain in this future. If we're 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.320 assuming this kind of thing we're actually enacted in the 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.560 real world, I think we should take into consideration the 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.159 possibility of what we talked about in the last podcast 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.360 on robots replacing us, which is that it could very 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.879 well be that robots can do all of these jobs, 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:54.320 and especially any job, any job you wouldn't find people 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:58.600 wanting to do out of their own personal fulfillment. Sure. Sure, 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.000 And and it's possible that all of the hallways and 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.800 floors and ceilings of the enterprise are covered in self 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:08.000 cleaning materials that are very advanced, and or that there 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.680 are an army of of rumbas that are just off 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:17.199 screen and every single shot cleaning everything. But you know, 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.720 it's it's I think that that's one of those suspensions 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.280 of disbelief that we have to. Yeah, I agree, and 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.280 I think I think that you know, once you take 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.840 in the robots idea and the fact that there aren't 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:31.160 any jobs that have to be done, then that problem 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.360 kind of goes away. It ends up being people do 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.840 things for self enrichment, which is the way ron Berry 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.240 pitched it is the idea that the people make choices 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:44.440 that are all about, uh, what they find fulfilling themselves personally, 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.720 and it's less it's not about what you get out 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.199 of it monetarily, but what you get out of it 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.840 in personal satisfaction. Well that's what the next piece from 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:57.919 Slate argued, right, yes, yes, uh, and uh so Slate 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:00.840 goes that was Matthew Iglesias who wrote the piece and 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:06.720 Slate and he specifically referenced this earlier piece, and he 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.720 said that there's at least some sort of scarcity based 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:14.240 economy in Star Trek, again pointing at Cisco's restaurant Picard's 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:18.240 Family Vineyard as examples, uh, and said that that was 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.400 historical production, which would have its own kind of scarcity 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:25.639 based value, because while you could go to the replicator 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:30.280 and print out gallons of wine to your heart's content, uh, 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.479 it would not be the same as going and getting 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:37.239 a bottle of wine that was traditionally produced right, right, 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:38.960 And we've talked about that on the show before. I 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:42.520 think in our Food Replicators episodes wherein UH, there are 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.520 characters on Star Trek, like Riker has this little uh 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.280 dinner club sort of thing on on the enterprise to 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.840 show off his Riker skills at cooking. You know, I 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:55.400 think this actually points to something that's really interesting that 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.000 that I would like to suggest, is that robots and 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:05.280 replicators might never be able to recreate those intangible things 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:09.280 that we love most about life. Like a robot cannot 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:13.479 create coolness, do you know what I mean? Like the 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.920 fact like that you see an object James Dean bot, 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:22.240 it can't A robot can't figure out what's cool about 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:26.280 a handcrafted artifact? That is cool. Well, and part of 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.640 it also is just the the idea of someone making 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:33.720 something for you or you making something for someone else. Well, 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.080 that's part of the coolness is like the knowledge of 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:40.879 where it came from. This this indetectable physically maybe, but 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.320 by knowing where an artifact that was handcrafted came from, 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.760 it has this aura of specialness. Oh yeah, yeah, well, 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:50.640 I mean it's it's why people pay millions of dollars 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:54.040 for an actual ruby slipper that was worn by Judy 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:58.160 Garland or or or why people are you know, oh yeah, 0:21:58.200 --> 0:21:59.880 that's a good point, or you can you can see 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.760 and in pop culture these days a lot wherein people 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:09.800 are are purchasing these these microcraft beers or uh, handmade 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:13.200 things on Etsy rather than buying something that's been mass produced, 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.840 because you know, if you it's this conception that if 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:18.480 you have the money to do it, knowing that a 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:22.880 human hand crafted this thing, abuse it with some kind 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.600 of property of awesome. It's a kind of lingering, magical 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:28.920 thinking that we might not ever be able to get rich. 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.080 Shake yeah. Now. Iglesia says that he envisions us as 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:34.960 being sort of a gift economy as opposed to a 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:39.919 welfare uh economy that that was proposed by web explain 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.520 the difference there. So he's saying this as uh, you know, 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.720 everything else is provided for you. It's it's because of 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:49.879 the replicators and the energy surplus. You're talking about, like 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.480 basic needs like food and water and shelter, and then 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.200 these these other sort of handcrafted items or whatever would 0:22:57.280 --> 0:22:59.760 essentially be freely given away. So if you were to 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.200 eat Cisco's restaurant, it would not cost you anything because 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:07.120 the purpose of the restaurant is to bring joy to others, 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:10.639 to have the joy of making food and serving it 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:13.720