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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to each Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 2: My name is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 2: And it's that time of year again. The exact time

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Speaker 2: of year again has shifts for us anyway. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: late September, other times it's early November. But this is

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Speaker 2: generally the window in which we aim to discuss the

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Speaker 2: latest winners of the Ignobel Prizes, the ig Nobels. For

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Speaker 2: anyone who has forgotten, or maybe you're new to the show,

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Speaker 2: you don't know what I'm talking about. It's a series

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Speaker 2: of awards given out once a year by a scientific

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Speaker 2: humor journal called the Annals of Improbable Research, edited for

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Speaker 2: many years now by Mark Abraham's. The publication's stated purpose

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Speaker 2: is to quote honor achievements that first make people laugh

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Speaker 2: and then make them think. You can learn much more

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Speaker 2: about them at improbable dot com. They have a wonderful

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Speaker 2: list where you can just you can scroll through all

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Speaker 2: the winners over the years, different peer reviewed papers, scientific papers,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes just individual researchers that are singled out for

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Speaker 2: these different studies that are in one way or another

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Speaker 2: comedic and hilarious, but also deep down our legitimate science

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Speaker 2: that it is often answering very important questions or things

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Speaker 2: on the borders of very important questions, things that are

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Speaker 2: still part of the ever growing expanse of scientific curiosity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say usually are legitimate science. Occasionally something

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Speaker 3: will get highlighted that is itself intended to be satirical.

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Speaker 3: But I almost think of that as kind of like

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Speaker 3: remember in the days of America's Funniest Tone videos, when

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Speaker 3: there would be the occasional video that was funny on purpose.

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Speaker 3: I never liked that. Even as a kid. I would

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Speaker 3: watch that be like, uhh, that's not acceptable. You can

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Speaker 3: only this has to be an accident or it doesn't work.

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Speaker 2: I remember watching America's Funniest to videos with a skeptical

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Speaker 2: eye too, and thinking that looks set up. Yea, they

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Speaker 2: intended for that sled to roll right into the house.

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Speaker 2: Clearly this was maybe the third or fourth take. I

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Speaker 2: can see the sled marks now. I kind of got

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Speaker 2: sidetracked there because I didn't intend for you to draw

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Speaker 2: the same conclusion about that, Like I hate the satirical

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Speaker 2: papers that get featured or something. I mean, the reology

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Speaker 2: of cats. One was funny, yeah when done right, but

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Speaker 2: it's perfect.

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Speaker 3: Yeah right. But the point being that occasionally it is

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Speaker 3: something that is just supposed to be silly from the

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Speaker 3: get go. But most of what gets featured on the

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Speaker 3: Ignobels is just actual research of one kind or another

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Speaker 3: that people end up finding funny. Maybe it's because the

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Speaker 3: subject matter is farts or something. Maybe it's because the

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Speaker 3: the conclusion that the paper comes to seems blindingly obvious

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Speaker 3: or weirdly counterintuitive. I guess there are a lot of

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Speaker 3: different ways that a scientific paper can end up being funny.

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Speaker 3: But one thing I always really enjoy about doing these

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Speaker 3: episodes is that usually even when something seems really silly

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Speaker 3: at first glance, once you actually read into it, there's

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Speaker 3: kind of some interesting stuff going on underneath the hood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that. I mean that's one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons we keep coming back to covering the

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Speaker 2: IGNO bells is, Yeah, it's genuinely laughter inducing, but once

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Speaker 2: you dig into them, there's something fascinating there, and it's

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Speaker 2: not always something that we would necessarily devote an entire

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Speaker 2: episode too. Though we should also note that sometimes the

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Speaker 2: honorees are very recent studies other times they may just

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Speaker 2: be decades old. So sometimes we'll get excited for the

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Speaker 2: Ignobells and we're like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's something we

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Speaker 2: covered that years ago.

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Speaker 3: There is one paper this year about like a guy

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Speaker 3: who documented his own fingernails growing for decades and it

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Speaker 3: has been a while, but I know we covered that

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Speaker 3: on the show. Oh I think maybe we did an

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Speaker 3: episode about fingernails or something where we got into this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So they cast a wide net, both in

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Speaker 2: time and space. Yeah, And sometimes I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're talking about the different ways papers are funny. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's about the methodology alone. For instance, earlier that this

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Speaker 2: was not an Ignobel winner yet. But earlier this year

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Speaker 2: I chatted with Rusalind Dakin about hummingbirds and one and

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Speaker 2: then you know, hummingbirds perfectly natural thing to study, fascinating creatures.

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Speaker 2: But one of the studies they were doing with the

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Speaker 2: methodology that they employed, involved putting little necklaces around their necks,

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Speaker 2: and like, that is in and of itself hilarious. Right,

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Speaker 2: anytime we put little bits of clothing or something even

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Speaker 2: akin to clothing on an animal for scientific purposes, it's

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Speaker 2: going to cause us to giggle. On some level where

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Speaker 2: it's going to make me giggle. Anyway, serious scientists may disagree.

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Speaker 3: Why did you make a diaper for category pillar as well?

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Speaker 3: It was for science?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So, as always, or as recently has been

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Speaker 2: the case, we are not going to discuss all the winners. Again,

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Speaker 2: go to improbable dot com if you want to go

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Speaker 2: through and explore all the different honorees this year, but

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Speaker 2: we are going to pick and choose a few and

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Speaker 2: we're going to discuss them over the course of a

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Speaker 2: couple of episodes this week.

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Speaker 3: All right, well, Rob, I know you looked into this

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Speaker 3: year's Nutrition Prize. Do you want to start with that one?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, This this one was pretty fun. This was

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Speaker 2: probably the first one I selected. It went to a

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Speaker 2: paper by Danielle Deddy, Gabriel h. She Nagabeto, Roger Meek

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Speaker 2: and Luca Luisselli. And it is the title of the

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Speaker 2: paper published an African Journal of Ecology was Opportunistic foraging

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Speaker 2: Strategy of rainbow lizards at a seaside resort in Togo.

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Speaker 2: And the paper in question was a Nigerian, Togalese, Italian

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Speaker 2: French production and was awarded quote for studying the extent

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Speaker 2: to which a certain kind of lizard chooses to eat

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Speaker 2: certain kinds of pizza, and it published in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: I feel like this is a big step up in

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Speaker 3: the world of pizza. Rat pizza, pigeon, pizza. Lizard is

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Speaker 3: just the next place it had to go.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, It's obvious why this one. Any non human

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Speaker 2: animal eating pizza is just inherently funny, And I don't know,

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Speaker 2: it's hard to really describe why this is the case.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the word pizza itself can be funny given

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Speaker 2: certain contexts, and on top of that, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: there's something just very comedic about a slice of pizza.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know if it's if it's

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Speaker 2: inherent to the slice of pizza, or is it just

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Speaker 2: the way that we often use the slice of pizza

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Speaker 2: right pizza.

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Speaker 3: I think it's because pizza is very far from a

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Speaker 3: food found in nature. If a bird comes and plucks

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Speaker 3: a grape off of your plate, that's not that funny.

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Speaker 3: It's a little bit funny. If it comes and plucks

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Speaker 3: a French fry off your plate, that's funnier than a grape,

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Speaker 3: because the bird in nature would never encounter a fried

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Speaker 3: piece of potato, but it's still basically just a piece

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Speaker 3: of potato. Something has happened to it. A pizza is

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Speaker 3: a whole production. You have made a dough, you have

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Speaker 3: made a sauce, you have you know, you have created

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Speaker 3: cheese out of milk and probably added some other things

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Speaker 3: to it. It's all this stuff coming together and producing

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Speaker 3: this very synthetic, technological product. And the fact that an

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Speaker 3: animal is taking your pizza away. I think that's what's

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Speaker 3: funny about it.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. But yeah, plus the triangular slice

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Speaker 2: that especially screams unnatural, man made, but you know, pizza

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Speaker 2: rat doesn't care. Pizza rat is going to drag that

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Speaker 2: slice away for its own, its own consumption. So this study,

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Speaker 2: again that doesn't involve rats. It involves rainbow lizards a

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Speaker 2: gama agama, and in particular, we're dealing with rainbow lizards

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Speaker 2: in urban African environments, so in cities, in towns, or

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Speaker 2: very specific to this particular study, at beach resorts, and

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Speaker 2: so lizards eating pizzas. This is even more hilarious. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're clearly getting into teenage mutant into turtle territory. Here

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Speaker 2: brings to mind not only the pizza loving Turtles themselves,

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Speaker 2: but also fellow mutant Mondo Gecko. I don't know how

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Speaker 2: many episodes of the old cartoon Mondo Gecko actually factored

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Speaker 2: into I included an image of this particular character for

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Speaker 2: you here, Joe, obviously a half human, half lizard hybrid

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Speaker 2: with a lot of attitude.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, So I was into the Turtles when I

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Speaker 3: was younger, But I don't know if I genuinely remember

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Speaker 3: this guy or not. I'm getting that tingling half memory

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Speaker 3: feeling right now, but it could be a false positive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I did not have time to go back and

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Speaker 2: watch any of these episodes in full, but I did

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Speaker 2: notice that there is an episode titled Michelangelo Meets Mondo Gecko,

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Speaker 2: and one of the pizza's reference in the episode is

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Speaker 2: locks and cream cheese. Just a reminder i'd forgotten this,

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Speaker 2: but the teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon program frequently mentioned

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Speaker 2: gross sounding pizzas that the Turtles were ordering, or into,

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Speaker 2: or had consumed like the day before. See.

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Speaker 3: I always thought of them as just getting your standard

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Speaker 3: pepperoni pizza or cheese pizza. That's what they show in

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Speaker 3: the ads for the show.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, But no, they were ordering all sorts of

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Speaker 2: strange pizzas. And I did a short detour in my

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Speaker 2: research here, and I discovered a YouTuber somebody who goes

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Speaker 2: by the name of Kirk Cooks that's with a K,

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Speaker 2: and apparently on YouTube over the course of I don't know,

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Speaker 2: multiple episodes, maybe even years, this guy cooked all sixty

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Speaker 2: seven pizzas mentioned on the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle series,

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Speaker 2: So things like anchovies and butterscotch ice cream, pepperoni and marshmallow,

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Speaker 2: pickled herring, and caramel fudge, and of course locks and

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Speaker 2: cream cheese, which I just referenced.

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Speaker 3: Clearly the most reasonable of all.

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Speaker 2: The Yeah, I did check out that episode, and that

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Speaker 2: was that was what the host was said, like, this

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Speaker 2: one had the possibility to actually be pretty good, and

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Speaker 2: it seems like they were pleased with it.

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Speaker 3: That's the most reasonable of the ones you mentioned, because

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Speaker 3: it's the only one that doesn't have candy on it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a number of them had some sort of like

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Speaker 2: gross candy candy situation going on, And I did not

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Speaker 2: watch all of these reviews, but I can only assume

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Speaker 2: that the grosser ones were indeed gross, So I mean

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Speaker 2: that was part of the humor of the turtles being

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Speaker 2: into these strange pizza orders.

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Speaker 3: Wait, Rob, do you personally I mean, hey, we don't

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Speaker 3: shame people for the foods they like here. You know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of strange sound foods are delicious. But Rob,

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Speaker 3: do you personally have like a standard pizza topping that

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Speaker 3: you can't stomach?

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Speaker 2: Ooh? I mean, I mean there are things that are

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Speaker 2: not in my diet anymore, but in terms of toppings

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Speaker 2: that I just that I've historically had an issue with.

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Speaker 2: I think I was a little cranky about pineapple for

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Speaker 2: a while, but I think I had pineapple on a

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Speaker 2: pizza not too long ago, though to be clear, it

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Speaker 2: was not the sort of classic ham in pineapple combo,

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Speaker 2: and I think I ended up liking it. So I

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Speaker 2: suspect that my problem was not with pineapple on a

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Speaker 2: pizza but fruit meat combos. Okay, because there were other

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Speaker 2: like fruit meat combos back when I ate meat that

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Speaker 2: I also didn't like, like prostudo and melon like some

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Speaker 2: people love that. I just never it was never for me.

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Speaker 3: I can see that I'm not the biggest pineapple guy either.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm not opposed to sweet flavors on a pizza,

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Speaker 3: but pineapple is like so sweet and so juicy, it

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Speaker 3: just seems a little over the top for me. The

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Speaker 3: big one that I can't do that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people love is not a topping, but an alternate sauce,

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Speaker 3: And people love these barbecue chicken pizzas with barbecue sauce

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Speaker 3: is the pia. I can't deal with barbecue sauce and

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Speaker 3: the sauce. That's just that's not doing it for me.

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Speaker 2: I remember having some of those, like California Pizza kitchen

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Speaker 2: type thing, and I liked it back in the day.

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Speaker 2: I think I can take some barbecue sauce out of context.

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Speaker 3: Apparently I can't. I just can't hang all right.

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Speaker 2: So getting back to the actual study here, we've firmly

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Speaker 2: established why it is funny. You know, it's lizards eating pizza.

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Speaker 2: Why does it matter? Well, despite being hilarious, the study

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Speaker 2: here too is certainly a valid inquiry. As we've discussed

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Speaker 2: on the show before, human cities, especially greatly alter the

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Speaker 2: lifestyles and diets of the creatures that continue to thrive

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Speaker 2: in them, and for most of you listeners, this is

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Speaker 2: instantly going to bring to mind things like pigeons and

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Speaker 2: rats obviously, but it also concerns all manner of creatures

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Speaker 2: that find ways to thrive in human augmented environments. Highly

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Speaker 2: adaptable creatures with varied opportunistic diets often do quite well.

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Speaker 2: And in parts of Africa that means rainbow lizards. You

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Speaker 2: know what they're eating from our refuse why and then

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Speaker 2: what it's doing to their health and door behavior is

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Speaker 2: totally worth studying. If for no other reason you might

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Speaker 2: think of it as like they're eating pizza because of us,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of our responsibility to figure out why this

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Speaker 2: is happening and what are the ramifications.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, entirely makes sense, and I would think that you

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Speaker 3: could also probably learn some interesting things about the lizard

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Speaker 3: and about its relationship to its environment by studying what

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Speaker 3: kinds of pizza it likes best.

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Speaker 2: Exactly exactly now, Joe, I included an image of a

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Speaker 2: gama agama for you right here, the rainbow lizard. I

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Speaker 2: do encourage listeners out there when it is safe to

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Speaker 2: do a search as well, so that you can see

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Speaker 2: this creature.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 2: It's quite a stunning lizard. You can understand why was

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Speaker 2: subsequently introduced into Florida. Via the reptile trade. Like it's

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Speaker 2: a gorgeous lizard.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's striking, bright orange head.

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Speaker 2: Bright orange head, dark body. Yeah. So they're also known

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Speaker 2: as the common agama and the red headed rock agama.

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Speaker 2: It's found throughout most of Sub Saharan Africa, which is

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Speaker 2: a considerable range. It's endemic to a number of Sub

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Speaker 2: Saharan African countries and has also again unfortunately, been introduced

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Speaker 2: into Florida via the reptile trade. They're primarily insectivores. They

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Speaker 2: live in social groups built around feuding lead males and

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Speaker 2: apparently the conflict between these males. It's more pronounced in

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Speaker 2: urban environments because they're kind of constricted in their territory,

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Speaker 2: so they can't spread out as much and they grow

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Speaker 2: to around thirty centimeters or eleven point eight inches in length.

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Speaker 2: Now in the paper, the authors point out that the

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Speaker 2: species has high ecological plasticity, especially so far as thermal

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Speaker 2: ecology and foraging strategy goes. So in rural areas they're

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Speaker 2: strictly diurnal, but in urban areas they apparently make use

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Speaker 2: of artificial lighting to become nocturnal foragers. And apparently most

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Speaker 2: of this has to do with keeping their body temperature up,

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Speaker 2: taking advantage of those lights to stay warm in the night,

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Speaker 2: and continuing to hunt. Oh interesting at first. When I

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Speaker 2: first read it, I thought, oh, well, you know, insects

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Speaker 2: drawned with lights, and maybe that's a part of it.

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Speaker 2: I didn't read that specifically, but it seems like thermal

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Speaker 2: regulation is the main feature here now. In addition to

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Speaker 2: eating insects, though, it has for a while been observed

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Speaker 2: that they will sometimes eat certain bread based foods, and

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Speaker 2: this led directly into this study that considered that asked

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Speaker 2: the question what sort of pizzas do they prefer? And

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Speaker 2: this took place at a particular seaside resort in Togo.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to read from the paper here. After having

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Speaker 2: opportunistically observed an adult male quote stealing a piece of

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Speaker 2: four cheese pizza from tourists by climbing a table, we

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Speaker 2: decided to investigate whether this behavior was occasional or usual

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Speaker 2: in this rainbow lizard population. So again, observations of adult

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Speaker 2: lizards not only you know, dining on thrown away slices

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Speaker 2: of pizza or you know, pizza bones in a garbage can,

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Speaker 2: but just straight up stealing slices of pizza pizza rat

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Speaker 2: style from human tourists.

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Speaker 3: That's a bold lizard. Yeah, has become accustomed to our

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Speaker 3: delicious foods.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So the researchers here decided to do a little

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Speaker 2: taste test. They set up feeding stations for the lizards

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Speaker 2: that featured two different pizza selections, so a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a you know, like a pizza bar scenario, but

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Speaker 2: with only two choices. One choice was the four cheese pizza,

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Speaker 2: which they had already been observed stealing, and the others

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Speaker 2: was a four seasons pizza. I don't know about you,

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Speaker 2: Joe was not super familiar with this, but it's apparently

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Speaker 2: traditional in many areas. It's divided into four sections, So

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Speaker 2: one quarter of the pizza is artichoke hearts for spring,

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Speaker 2: and then another quarter is basil and tomatoes for summer,

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Speaker 2: and then another quarter is mushrooms for autumn, and then

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Speaker 2: another section is ham for winter.

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Speaker 3: I just looked it up. No, I've never had one

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Speaker 3: of these before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, sound I guess it sounds

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Speaker 2: fine to me. I have no objections, but but you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll get to what the lizards think. So the lizards

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Speaker 2: here had a choice between a cheese pizza and a

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Speaker 2: mostly veggie pizza, but one that also featured a little

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Speaker 2: bit of meat, and all of the rainbow lizards observed

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Speaker 2: went purely for the four cheese pizza.

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Speaker 3: Interesting. I wonder, why could that be visual differences or

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Speaker 3: it's actually like nutritionally preferable to them, or.

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Speaker 2: I wonder, Yeah, the authors here right that this suggests

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Speaker 2: quote that they may have some chemical cues attracting them,

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Speaker 2: or that the specific four cheeses type may provide nutrients

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Speaker 2: that are more easily digested, which I mean that also,

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Speaker 2: I realized sounds a little crazy, right because we're talking

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Speaker 2: about cheese here, we're talking about a dairy product, and

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Speaker 2: it's you know, it's one thing to talk about mammals

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Speaker 2: consuming dairy even when they shouldn't, such as you know,

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Speaker 2: giving a cat a saucer of milk. Yes, they do

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Speaker 2: it in the cartoons and in the movies all the time,

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Speaker 2: but I think most of us know by this point

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Speaker 2: you're not supposed to do that. But these are lizards, right,

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Speaker 2: Why would lizards need cheese? Why would lizards need milk?

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Speaker 2: In fact, I was looking around and like, in general,

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Speaker 2: pet owners who have lizards are generally reminded, do not

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Speaker 2: feed your lizard milk. Do not give your lizard cheese.

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Speaker 2: They don't need it, they can't handle it.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, okay, But then did the researchers like study like,

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Speaker 3: were the lizards who were eating this pizza like in

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Speaker 3: bad health?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: Apparently, so this is definitely one of those areas where

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Speaker 2: more research is required. But it seemed to be this

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Speaker 2: be the case that the pizza eating lizards were doing. Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's not like they were getting bloated on pizza and

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Speaker 2: then just like you know, dying in the sun or anything.

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Speaker 2: They seem to be in good overall health. And it

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Speaker 2: seemed like one of the leading hypotheses here is that

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Speaker 2: they're perhaps benefiting from a high fat, high calorie energy

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Speaker 2: boost when they eat this cheese pizza, specifically the cheese here.

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Speaker 2: As for like the bread itself, I don't. I don't.

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Speaker 2: I'm not to understand that that has any like real impact.

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Speaker 2: But maybe that's the main way that these lizards, lizards

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Speaker 2: have been observed to obtain cheese like this off of

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Speaker 2: a you know, a type of food that has spread

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Speaker 2: around the world, like invasive pet lizard species. In this case, the.

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Speaker 3: Pizza rob I've found a slightly related story. Would you

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Speaker 3: like to hear about it? It's only sort of related.

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Speaker 3: It's not about lizards eating pizza, but it's close.

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Speaker 2: Hey, it's close. Even then, we should definitely explore it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So did you know that one of the most

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Speaker 3: extreme cases of constipation ever documented in nature was caused

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Speaker 3: by a lizard eating at a pizza parlor?

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Speaker 2: Wow? This absolutely sounds unreal.

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Speaker 3: To be clear, we have no evidence that the lizard

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Speaker 3: was eating pizza itself, but I guess we can't be sure.

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Speaker 3: But part of the cursed concoction that this lizard consumed

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Speaker 3: seems to have been sand contaminated with pizza grease and

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Speaker 3: some other stuff, including other lizards that may also have

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Speaker 3: been eating pizza grease and greasy sand. So yeah, delicious, right.

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Speaker 3: So here My source is a press release on the

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Speaker 3: website of the Florida Museum of Natural History from April

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty by Halle Marchesi, and the story goes like this,

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Speaker 3: Some researchers at the University of Florida and at the

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Speaker 3: Florida Museum came into possession of a remarkable specimen, an

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Speaker 3: adult female northern curly tailed lizard. The species is Leocephalus caronadus,

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Speaker 3: and this northern curly tailed lizard was so constipated when

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Speaker 3: they found it that the mass of impassable poop in

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Speaker 3: its digestive tract had become almost eighty percent of the

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Speaker 3: animal's total body mass. I think the exact figure was

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Speaker 3: seventy eight point five percent. Yikes, so more poop than lizard.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Wow. I mean, the only thing that even comes

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Speaker 2: close to this were examples we've discussed of specific scorpion

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Speaker 2: species that lose their ability to poop if they have

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Speaker 2: to eject their tail and therefore cannot poop for the

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Speaker 2: rest of their lives. But that this sounds even more impressive.

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Speaker 3: So at the time, and I don't know if this

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Speaker 3: has been surpassed since, but I kind of doubt it.

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Speaker 3: The authors believed this was the largest feces to body

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Speaker 3: mass ratio ever recorded in a living animal, so it

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Speaker 3: was the most constipated a live animal had ever been

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Speaker 3: as far as we have documented. Obviously, we can't know

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Speaker 3: what has happened out there in nature, but the most

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Speaker 3: constipated animal we've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: Do you think this? I'm imagining the cinematic moment where

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Speaker 2: the researchers suddenly get really serious and one is like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think this is it. I think this

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Speaker 2: is the largest feces to body mass ratio ever recorded.

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Speaker 2: I think it's happening.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I think I'm about to describe that moments. So

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Speaker 3: one of the researchers, a PhD candidate at the time

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Speaker 3: named Natalie Klaunch, is quoted in this press release saying

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Speaker 3: that when they caught the lizard, they first assumed because

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Speaker 3: it was an adult female, they first assumed it was

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Speaker 3: about to lay eggs quote, but when we went to

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Speaker 3: feel for eggs, it just felt like it was full

401
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Speaker 3: of silly putty. So they did a CT scan of

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Speaker 3: the lizard and they discovered it had this gigantic fecal

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Speaker 3: bullus stuck in its digestive system. And again, the bullus

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Speaker 3: to body mass ratio was huge. It was so far

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Speaker 3: past the previous record that it was crazy. The previous

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Speaker 3: record was in a Burmese python, and this ratio was

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Speaker 3: six roughly six times greater than that. Edward Stanley, director

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Speaker 3: of the Florida Museum's Digital Discovery and Dissemination Laboratory, said, quote,

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Speaker 3: I was blown away by how little room there was

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Speaker 3: left for all the other organs. If you look at

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Speaker 3: the three D model, it has only a tiny space

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Speaker 3: left over in its ribcage for the heart, lungs, and liver.

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Speaker 3: So the sad part of this story is that unfortunately

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Speaker 3: this condition was not survivable for the lizard. The lizard

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Speaker 3: was humanely euthanized. But how did it get so constipated. Well,

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Speaker 3: this lizard had been feeding in the parking lot next

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Speaker 3: to the grease collection bin outside of a pizza parlor

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Speaker 3: in Cocoa Beach, Florida, and the researchers think that this

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Speaker 3: lizard was probably hunting insects and other smaller lizards that

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Speaker 3: were drawn to the pizza grease, and as a result,

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Speaker 3: it was ingesting a lot of greasy sand. It had

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Speaker 3: probably eaten a bunch of insects. I think they said

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Speaker 3: it had eaten another lizard in a knoll and a

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Speaker 3: bunch of grease soaked sand along with these other meals,

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Speaker 3: and this turned into the bullus that it couldn't pass. Now, Rob,

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Speaker 3: you were just speaking about invasive lizards in Florida. The

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Speaker 3: northern curly tail lizards originally native to Cuba, the Bahamas,

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Speaker 3: and the Cayman Islands are also not originally to Florida.

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Speaker 3: They were intentionally introduced to Florida in the nineteen forties

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Speaker 3: in an attempt to control agricultural pests. How many times

431
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 3: have we heard that story they were brought into control.

432
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 3: I think it was sugar cane pests, and as so

433
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 3: often happens, they became a problem in their own right,

434
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 3: out competing and threatening native lizard species and contributing to

435
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 3: a decline in the native diversity of reptiles in Florida.

436
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 3: Apparently they are especially at risk for getting blocked up

437
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 3: intestines because their diet is so diverse, and they will

438
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 3: eat all kinds of things they find in human environments.

439
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 3: To quote Claunch in that article, quote from bits of

440
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 3: fish to cheese and crackers. So again, we don't know

441
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: for sure that this lizard was actually eating pizza. It

442
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 3: was eating in the parking lot next to the pizza parlor,

443
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,239
Speaker 3: But I don't know cheese and crackers. Is that too

444
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 3: far off from pizza or be happening.

445
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 2: Let's not ignore the possibility that it just right up

446
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 2: ordered and a bug in sand pizza from this place,

447
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: turtle style yea, and consumed it. In the parking lot

448
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 2: and paid the paid the ultimate price.

449
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 3: A Sicilian style with extra sand. So the article emphasizes

450
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 3: how unlikely it is that you would find a lizard

451
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: this constipated alive in the wild, because usually they end

452
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 3: up usually they're only going to eat small amounts of

453
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 3: sand as they consume prey. It seems like this one

454
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 3: must have eaten a lot of grease contaminated sand, and

455
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 3: when they do get constipated, they become sluggish, so it's

456
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 3: pretty easy for predators to pick them off, but that

457
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 3: had not yet happened to this one. Though. I do

458
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 3: wonder this is not anything that the sources were suggesting.

459
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 3: I'm just just guessing here. Would those predators now have

460
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 3: a higher likelihood of also getting constipated. You got to

461
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 3: wonder if if you're a bird or something and you

462
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 3: eat a lizard that is actually like eighty percent fecal

463
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: bullus made of largely, you know, pizza, grease, and sand,

464
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 3: do you get constipated with pizza, grease, and sand.

465
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 2: Oh? I don't know. I mean, I guess in this scenario,

466
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 2: the predator in question, be it a like a raptor

467
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: or what have you, has to end up consuming the

468
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 2: lizard hole and not rupturing it in a way that

469
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 2: might turn it off, like if you were to rupture

470
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 2: the creature with your talons and then realize it's basically

471
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: one big lump of pooh. I you know, I don't

472
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 2: don't know my raptors well enough to whether that would

473
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 2: be at a turrent if the raptor might say, actually,

474
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: I'm in way over my head here and I'll just

475
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: leave this one. B maybe I'll only eat a part

476
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: of it, or you know how that ends up going down.

477
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 2: I know that, Like, there are various predators who you know,

478
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 2: that do not want to consume the fecal matter of

479
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: their prey, like I believe. I remember reading that Komodo dragons,

480
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: for example, might like swing the animals around like to

481
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: dislodge in intestines that may have fecal matter inside them.

482
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 2: So even if you're eating most of the animal, you

483
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: might not eat it home. But then again, there are

484
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: also plenty of examples of animals that absolutely do eat

485
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 2: their prey hole and then either it all passes through

486
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 2: or you know, some of it gets you know, barfed

487
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: back up again and the rest continues. The journey.

488
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 3: Researchers who made this discovery? Are you listening? Do you

489
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 3: have any insight on this? I would love to know more?

490
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 3: Right and tell us what's going on in Florida? Contact

491
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 3: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

492
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: All right, well, what do you have as a selection? Joe?

493
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: Which is the first that you decided to pick off

494
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 2: the list? Here?

495
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: Okay? I decided today to talk about the twenty twenty

496
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 3: five Psychology Prize. This year's Psychology Prize was presented to

497
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,239
Speaker 3: Marson Zagenkowski of the University of Warsaw in Poland and

498
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: Jill Jiniak of the University of Western Australia. Quote for

499
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 3: investigating what happens when you tell narcissists or anyone else

500
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 3: that they are intelligent? So the name of the winning paper,

501
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: published in twenty twenty one in the journal Intelligence perhaps

502
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: emphasizes what's funny about this more than the ceremony language does.

503
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 3: It's called telling people they are intelligent correlates with the

504
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: feeling of narcissistic uniqueness, the influence of IQ feedback on

505
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: temporary state narcissism.

506
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: Okay, So the basic idea of being that by telling

507
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: someone they're smart, you could at the very least induce

508
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: temporary narcissism in them.

509
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. This is a part of a long running

510
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 3: tradition where it's a study where what's funny about it

511
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: is that the result seems ridiculously obvious. If you tell somebody, oh, wow,

512
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 3: our tests confirm that you are much smarter than other people,

513
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 3: it will tend to increase their feelings that they are

514
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 3: special and unique, at least temporarily.

515
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: Right until you do the next dumb thing and then

516
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: you're like, ooh, maybe that finding was off.

517
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 3: So many Ignobel winners over the years, especially in psychology,

518
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 3: have this quality. What's funny about them is that they

519
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 3: find something that seems really obvious. It's like, well, I

520
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: could have told you that. This is also a common

521
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 3: refrain from the comments section underneath any write up of

522
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: a new finding, especially from the social sciences, something in

523
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 3: economics or political science or psychology. You know, people just

524
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 3: chiming in to say that's obvious. You didn't need an

525
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 3: experiment to tell you that. I've made this point many

526
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 3: times on the show before, including in previous Ignobel episodes,

527
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: but I just want to do my brief speech on

528
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: this again right now. To the extent people actually mean

529
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: this kind of thing when they say it. I think

530
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 3: this point of view really misunderstands the purpose of most experiments,

531
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,479
Speaker 3: and it misses the value of science. The whole reason

532
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 3: we have experimental science is to test what we think

533
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 3: will happen against what actually happens. So we have a

534
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 3: hypothesis and we subject it to an experiment. Sometimes the

535
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 3: results apport the hypothesis, sometimes they don't. So if you

536
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: say I have an intuition about how this experiment will

537
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 3: come out, therefore you shouldn't run an experiment, that essentially

538
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 3: reduces to saying that we shouldn't have experimental science at all.

539
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 3: It's like saying, however, I assume the world works based

540
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 3: on just living my life and getting a vibe is

541
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: good enough. We don't need to look any deeper. Now.

542
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean, on the other hand, that every scientific

543
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 3: experiment and every paper published is amazingly valuable. You know,

544
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 3: there are some phenomena that are probably not the most

545
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 3: important things in nature to study, though sometimes you don't

546
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 3: realize how important something is until after you study it.

547
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: And of course I would say that the most important

548
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 3: criticism you could make of a study is if its

549
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 3: design is poor meaning, it could be generating false knowledge.

550
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 3: But I would argue that just looking at the result

551
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 3: and saying I could have told you that is not

552
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: a good criticism of research, because the history of science

553
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 3: is full of counterintuitive things where a lay person would

554
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 3: assume an experiment would find one thing, and instead it

555
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 3: finds the opposite. Even in psychology, there are tons of

556
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 3: results that violate a lay person's intuition and have proven robust,

557
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 3: meaning they've been replicated many times by independent teams of researchers,

558
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 3: and we've talked about a bunch of these on the

559
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 3: show before. Just in the domain of psychology, I think

560
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 3: about the great example that it is a super common

561
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 3: lay intuition that we are really good at spotting lies

562
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 3: and liars. Most people think that they can tell when

563
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 3: somebody is lying to them by I don't know, reading

564
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 3: facial expressions or verbal cues. Tests show over and over

565
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 3: again that Nope, our intuitions here are very misguided. We

566
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 3: grossly overestimate our ability to tell when people are lying

567
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: to us. In the same vein rob remember those episodes

568
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 3: we did on authenticity last year, it's very common lay

569
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 3: intuition that we can tell when people are being inauthentic

570
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 3: when not really being themselves. Turns out if you test this,

571
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 3: like if you compare other people's ratings of Johnny's authenticity

572
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 3: to Johnny's own rating of how authentic he's being in

573
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 3: an interaction, the correlation tends to be pretty low. We

574
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,959
Speaker 3: think we can tell, but actually we're not very good

575
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: at it.

576
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just turns out we're all jerks.

577
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 3: And I could go on and on listing a bunch

578
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 3: of things like this. There are just so many things

579
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: that we think based on intuition and life experience, and

580
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 3: when we test those assumptions, some are broadly confirmed. Sometimes

581
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 3: lay intuition is right, other times it's wrong, and it

582
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 3: gets contradicted in interesting ways. And this final point is

583
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 3: very important. Sometimes the process of investigating the assumption with

584
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 3: an experiment, even if it confirms our intuition, it reveals

585
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 3: new ways of thinking about the issue, and it leads

586
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 3: us to ask new questions we didn't think of before.

587
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 3: So I'll get off my soapbox now, but I just

588
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 3: do want to reiterate this thing. I probably end up

589
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 3: saying this most years when we talk about the ignobels

590
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 3: in one way or another. I could have told you

591
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: that is not a good criticism.

592
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: Now, another criticism that often is leveled at the sorts

593
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: of papers that are honored in the ig Nobel Prizes

594
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 2: is like, well, this is not an important study. It's

595
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: not answering important questions or solving important problems. It's not

596
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: big enough, and like this tends to I don't know,

597
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 2: it kind of comes back to that saying, you know

598
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: that the modern scientists there they're standing on the backs

599
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: of giants, which is true, but they're also standing on

600
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: a lot of gnomes and halflings and other smaller Like

601
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 2: there's a lot of small studies in science that are

602
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 2: just necessary stepping stones and the whole ordeal. Again, I

603
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: think if we just think about science, is this thing

604
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: like this, this focused lamp that we need to shine

605
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 2: onto various problems, Like sometimes it is that, but it

606
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 2: also is about the like the larger you know, full

607
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 2: lantern elimination.

608
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. I mean there are a lot of

609
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: things going on. A lot of experiments that don't seem

610
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: very exciting to the layperson are just laying important groundwork,

611
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: like testing a tool or a concept to see if

612
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 3: it is valid and thus can it be used in

613
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 3: further research or making establishing a small establishing something in

614
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: a small setting to see is it worth investigating with

615
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 3: a more high powered study, right or again, as is

616
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: often the case, you know, looking into things that might

617
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 3: be of interest to the researcher, but a lot of

618
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 3: people would say, well why does this matter? And you

619
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 3: don't always know why it might matter. Maybe it doesn't

620
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 3: end up mattering to the whole world that much. And

621
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 3: then other times things could have very squarely been seen

622
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: when they were first being studied and the why does

623
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 3: this matter category, and then they turned out to be

624
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 3: a huge significance.

625
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 2: Right right, I mean figuring out why lizards certain lizards

626
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 2: eat certain pizzas. It's probably not going to cure cancer.

627
00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: But ultimately, with science you never know exactactly you know,

628
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: what discovery leads to another discovery. It's not I mean,

629
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 2: it's not incompletely impossible. All right, Well let's get back

630
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: to these narcissists.

631
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 3: Right, So this study, I don't think this is going

632
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 3: to cure cancer, but I do think it is interesting.

633
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 3: So again the paper is called telling people their intelligent

634
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 3: correlates with the feeling of narcissistic uniqueness. The influence of

635
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 3: IQ Feedback on Temporary State Narcissism. And again this is

636
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 3: by Marson Zegenkowski and Jill E. Geniak, published in the

637
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 3: journal Intelligence twenty twenty one. So the authors begin by

638
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: making a statement that will take a little bit of unpacking,

639
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 3: but that statement is a statement about the background research

640
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 3: stuff that has already been established before they started their

641
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,879
Speaker 3: paper here, and that background research finding is that what's

642
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: called grandiose narcissism is positively correlated with self assessed intelligence

643
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 3: or SAI. Now let's define terms here, starting with psychological

644
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 3: concept of narcissism. It is defined in the Encyclopedia of

645
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 3: Social Psychology as follows quote. Narcissism in its extreme forms

646
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: is considered a personality disorder. It is defined as a

647
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 3: syndrome or combination of characteristics that includes the following a

648
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: pervasive pattern of grandiosity, self importance, and perceived uniqueness, a

649
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 3: preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success and power, exhibitionism and

650
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 3: attention seeking, emotional reactivity, especially to threats to self esteem,

651
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 3: displays of entitlement and the expectation of special treatment from others,

652
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 3: and an unwillingness or inability to show empathy. So that's

653
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: a lot of different things. It's hard to say that

654
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: all in one short phrase, but I would say, for

655
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 3: simplicity's sake, you can think of narcissism as an extreme

656
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: form of self centeredness that manifests in a host of

657
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 3: characteristic behaviors, these kind of behavior clusters that we see

658
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 3: happening together again and again. And those behaviors include the

659
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: need for praise, attention and adoration, the lack of empathy

660
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 3: for others, the sense of entitlement and a desire for

661
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 3: special treatment, and so forth.

662
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: Now, but before anybody self diagnosis too much, just remember

663
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: all those things can occur to varying levels in just

664
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: about any of us. We're talking about, you know, all

665
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 2: the all the lights burning at the same time here, right.

666
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 3: And there's also a difference this paper will address between

667
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 3: trait narcissism and state narcissism. You know, you can in

668
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 3: a particular you can get into a particular state where

669
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 3: you show more of certain narcissistic tendencies than you would

670
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 3: in the rest of your life, for example.

671
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 2: And that's an I think that's important to note because

672
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: just you know, as a reminder that you know you

673
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: can get into this narcissistic state without being like a

674
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 2: narcissist all the time. You know, it's kind of without

675
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 2: thinking like, oh, I'm not a narcissist. I could never

676
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: be like that. Well you could at least at least

677
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 2: in bursts, and therefore you know it pays to watch

678
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: out for that in your own behavior.

679
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 3: But there is also a special thing, which is where

680
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 3: you see this syndrome where somebody pretty consistently displays all

681
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 3: of these traits and they cluster together and like that.

682
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 3: That's sort of a type of person. So that that's

683
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 3: narcissism in general. But what about the grandiose part. Grandiose narcissism.

684
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 3: Grandiose narcissism is one of two main types of narcissism

685
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 3: identified by the authors. These are grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism.

686
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: For a succinct distinction here, I found another paper from

687
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen in Frontiers and Psychology called vulnerable and grandiose

688
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 3: narcissism are differently associated with ability and trait emotional intelligence.

689
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 3: And note that the first listed of the four authors

690
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 3: on this paper here was the same as the Ignobel paper.

691
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 3: That's Marson Zagenkowski The authors make the distinction as follows quote.

692
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 3: Grandiose narcissism is characterized by high self esteem, interpersonal dominance,

693
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 3: and a tendency to overestimate one's capabilities, whereas vulnerable narcissism

694
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 3: presents defensive, avoidant, and hyper sensitive attitude in interpersonal relations. So,

695
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: based on these definitions, I would say that your grandiose

696
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 3: narcissist is probably the most stereotypical type of egomaniac, all

697
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 3: of the typical self obsessed and self privileging narcissistic traits,

698
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 3: but with an emphasis on really high opinion of your

699
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: own abilities and powers and an orientation toward personally getting ahead, competitiveness, dominance,

700
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 3: and self aggrandize.

701
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: All right, yeah, this is your kind of classic. The

702
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: Emperor has no close sort of narcissism, right.

703
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 3: So that's the grandiose narcissism. The other definition from the

704
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 3: opening statement would be self assessed intelligence, which is pretty straightforward.

705
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 3: It's not how smart you actually are, but how smart

706
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 3: you think you are. So again, the background knowledge is

707
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 3: that people who score high in grandiose narcissism also tend

708
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: to rate their own intelligence very highly. And as a

709
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: side note, I think it's worth exploring for a minute

710
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 3: the idea that having high confidence in your own intelligence.

711
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 3: You know, at first, when I think about that, I

712
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 3: have a negative reaction to that, and they're like, Oh,

713
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 3: that's pompous, that's no good, which I don't think I'm

714
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 3: wrong in thinking that. But also it's worth noting that

715
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 3: having high confidence in your own intelligence can have both

716
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 3: good and bad consequences. In terms of good consequences, studies

717
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 3: have found that even if you can't for actual intelligence

718
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 3: or actual ability, higher self assessed intelligence is correlated with

719
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 3: some desirable outcomes, like greater feelings of well being, and

720
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 3: some studies have found it correlated with better academic achievements.

721
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 3: So there are some benefits to seeing yourself as smart,

722
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 3: whether or not you're actually smart, and there could be

723
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 3: a lot of reasons for this. For example, one possibility

724
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 3: is just, even beyond the narrow domain of intelligence, just

725
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 3: generally believing I can do this whatever the domain allows

726
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 3: you to take more risks and actually pursuing goals and

727
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 3: developing your own skills compared to someone who is actually

728
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 3: at the starting point just as capable as you, but

729
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 3: feels I cannot do this and thus doesn't take any

730
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 3: risks on development or skill attainment, doesn't get opportunities for

731
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: success and so forth. As you know, as the saying goes,

732
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 3: some percent of success is showing up, and in some cases,

733
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 3: believing I am very smart helps motivate you to show up,

734
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 3: whether or not you're right about that.

735
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, that makes sense.

736
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 3: On the other hand, if we should absolutely note that

737
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 3: there are major downsides to high self assessed intelligence. For example,

738
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 3: if you go through life thinking I am very smart,

739
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 3: I would argue it makes you more likely to fool

740
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 3: yourself into dangerous misguided certainty, makes you more subject to

741
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 3: intellectual hubris. It can prevent you from paying attention to

742
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 3: good advice from others. One big thing you see with

743
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 3: people high in grandiose, narcissistic traits who rate their own

744
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 3: intelligence very highly is that they do not take feedback

745
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 3: that contradicts them. So if a piece of information contradicts

746
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 3: their view or contradicts their way of understanding the world

747
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 3: or their view of themself, they attack the new information

748
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 3: or they attack the person delivering the new information, rather

749
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 3: than incorporating that information as feedback and updating their model.

750
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 3: And this is one reason it can be so dangerous

751
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 3: to have grandiose narcissists in like leadership and authority positions,

752
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 3: and they do often end up there. You know, this

753
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 3: is a personality type that specifically is set up to

754
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 3: reject information that is threatening to their ego.

755
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 2: And it's just curious that this does kind of get

756
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 2: back to what you were talking about earlier about the

757
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 2: basic mission of science to sometimes explore things that we

758
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: feel are to one level or another already settled in

759
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: our own mind.

760
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you can find out you were on Yeah,

761
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 3: And it's good to pay attention when you get that

762
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 3: signal and not just say, oh, that can't be right,

763
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 3: that's not already what I think right. A few more

764
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 3: interesting facts from the introduction to this paper, just little

765
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 3: tidbits here. One is that we may have talked about

766
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: this on the show before, but the so called better

767
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 3: than average effect most people believe their own intelligence is

768
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 3: above average. It's interesting giving people an intelligence test tends

769
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 3: to reduce our level of overestimation of our own intelligence.

770
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 3: And so this occurs not even at the getting your

771
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 3: score on the test stage, like you just take the

772
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 3: problem solving portion of the test, and this experience of

773
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 3: the task itself reduces people's overconfidence about their own intelligence.

774
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 3: It's something about the process, like having to solve the problems.

775
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 3: And finally, though on average we are we're all likely

776
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 3: to overestimate our own intelligence, some people overestimate their intelligence

777
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 3: more than everybody else, particularly people who score high in

778
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 3: the traite narcissism. But anyway, coming back to the main

779
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 3: thrust of the paper here, yes, grandiose narcissism is correlated

780
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 3: positively with self assessed intelligence. It is typically assumed in

781
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 3: the scientific literature that the direction of causation here flows

782
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 3: from the narcarcissism to the self assessed intelligence. In other words,

783
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 3: because I have a narcissistic personality, I think I am

784
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 3: very smart. I think I'm smarter than other people. But

785
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 3: the central question the authors are asking in this paper is,

786
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 3: to some extent, could the causation be going the other

787
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 3: way or could it be going in both directions? Could

788
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 3: it be that something causes me to think that I

789
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 3: am very smart, thus I become more likely to exhibit

790
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: narcissistic traits. So the authors designed an experiment with three

791
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty four subjects where they measured the effects

792
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 3: of giving the subjects IQ tests and then randomly telling

793
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 3: the subjects either that they performed better than average or

794
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 3: that they performed worse than average. The subjects also took

795
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 3: standard inventories to measure the presence of particular narcissistic personality

796
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 3: traits or state traits, you know, things that could just

797
00:46:55,040 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 3: indicate being in a narcissistic state of mind temporarily. Specifically,

798
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 3: the authors were looking to see if there were temporary

799
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 3: boosts to traits of what's called narcissistic admiration, which quote

800
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 3: is characterized by striving for uniqueness, grandiose fantasies, and charming behavior.

801
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 3: And the authors found that feedback from the IQ test,

802
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 3: which to be clear, was random it's not actually reflective

803
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 3: of performance, did positively correlate with people's self assessed intelligence.

804
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 3: So if you tell somebody that they did better than

805
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 3: average on this IQ test, it did also make them

806
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 3: see themselves as smarter, And it also temporarily increased one

807
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 3: particular subscale of narcissistic admiration, but not the others. The

808
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 3: one part of narcissism that it did increase, at least temporarily,

809
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 3: was known as striving for uniqueness, which the authors characterize

810
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 3: as the feeling of being special, bragging about one's abilities,

811
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 3: and the enjoyment of one's successes. So the core hypothesis

812
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 3: there was that it was a kind of mixed result.

813
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,439
Speaker 3: Actually did not find that telling people they did well

814
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 3: on an IQ test increased all aspects of narcissistic admiration,

815
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 3: but it did significantly increase one aspect of it. Also,

816
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 3: the people who were told that they did below average

817
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 3: on the test reported lower self assessed intelligence afterwards, so

818
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 3: the effect went both ways, and they tested lower on

819
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 3: temporary measures of the same narcissism subscale striving for uniqueness.

820
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 3: So the authors say, we conclude that IQ feedback may

821
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 3: shape people's beliefs about their intelligence, and that lay concepts

822
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 3: of intelligence might incorporate some narcissistic elements, such as the

823
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 3: feeling of being uniquely special. So, like any good research,

824
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,760
Speaker 3: this raises more questions. If it's true that being told

825
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 3: you did well on this IQ test causes at least

826
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:03,959
Speaker 3: a temporary increase in, but not all, components of state narcissism.

827
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: Is it possible that things like this could have an

828
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 3: additive effect over time. Could it be that various types

829
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 3: of positive feedback about intelligence could be contributing to the

830
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,919
Speaker 3: narcissism of the world. In other words, like, not only

831
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 3: are people high in narcissistic traits going around with an

832
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 3: inflated view of their own intelligence. We already know that

833
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 3: is true, but perhaps people all over, regular people too

834
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 3: are being pushed in a more narcissistic direction by getting

835
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 3: various kinds of lavish and unearned praise about how smart

836
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 3: they are. I think there are a lot of ways

837
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 3: this can happen, but I'm just thinking, like every time

838
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,720
Speaker 3: they ask chat GPT a question, it starts the answer with, Wow,

839
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 3: that's a great question. You are so curious and thoughtful

840
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 3: for asking that. You know it is so special. And

841
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 3: to be clear, like this is not to proven finding

842
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 3: of the paper, but I think it's a really interesting

843
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 3: question that it raises and something that would be a

844
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 3: good subject for future research.

845
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 2: Oh now, now I'm worried about those of us who

846
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: I don't do this every episode obviously, but who periodically

847
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 2: interview people for a podcast, because what is kind of

848
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: like a go to response when you ask a question, Sometimes,

849
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,760
Speaker 2: whether it's a good question or not, the interview subject

850
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: will say that's a good question or that's a great question.

851
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 2: And even though I, deep down, you know, know that

852
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 2: that wasn't necessarily a great question, am I letting that

853
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 2: sink in? Am I on some level? Am I saying yeah,

854
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: that was a great question. I'm a great interviewer.

855
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 3: I know the feeling. Rob Yeah, No, I mean there

856
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 3: are so many ways that we have to be sensitive

857
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 3: to the fact that in a you know, if you're

858
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 3: dealing with nice and polite people, they might be kind

859
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 3: of buttering you up, or maybe even maybe some people

860
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 3: are intentionally manipulating you. But even put that aside, people

861
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 3: who are buttering you up to manipulate you on purpose, Yeah,

862
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 3: lots of just pleasant, happy interactions could potentially, like if

863
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: this does actually have a kind of additive effect on

864
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 3: personality over time. We don't know that it does, but

865
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 3: if it does, could be encouraging people to become more

866
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 3: narcissistic in certain ways. Now, I don't know if that

867
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 3: were actually the case. I don't know what the remedy

868
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 3: would be. I don't know if we should be going

869
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 3: around negging each other all the time. That seems wrong too.

870
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 2: The world needs to be a little more negative. It's

871
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 2: our only hope. Yeah, it's kind of difficult to suss

872
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: out what you do with that. I mean, I guess,

873
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 2: I guess there are some definite application points for you know, balancing,

874
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 2: you know, praise and like, you know, in in the

875
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 2: teaching environments and in the home environment, we'll.

876
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 3: Be giving being given positive encouragement, a lot of positive encouragement,

877
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 3: but also just very straightforward feedback. Yeah, it's like, you know, yeah,

878
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 3: you can do this. Here's what you didn't do right

879
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 3: this time. You can try again, you can make progress,

880
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 3: You're doing well. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean,

881
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to tell teachers how to teach. I

882
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 3: don't know what. I don't know what actually works. But yeah,

883
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 3: so I think this does raise a lot of interesting questions,

884
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 3: and obviously I think the investigation of the subject does

885
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 3: not end here, Like there are more questions to ask,

886
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 3: Like we were talking about earlier, a couple more interesting

887
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 3: elements I wanted to mention from the paper. One that

888
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,919
Speaker 3: I thought was actually quite funny was subjects who got

889
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 3: positive feedback, who you know, were told you did better

890
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 3: than average, rated the test as more valid than those

891
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 3: who got negative feedback. Yeah, something's wrong with that test.

892
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 3: And then also I'm coming back to not just regular people,

893
00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: but specifically people who showed higher narcissism. Narcissism generally caused

894
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 3: people to rate their own intelligence more highly, but this

895
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 3: was especially true in the condition where subjects got negative

896
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 3: feedback when they were told that they had done worse

897
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 3: on average. This seems to indicate a very important role

898
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 3: of narcissistic behavior patterns in ego protection. This seems to

899
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 3: be a lot of what narcissism is about. Narcissism means

900
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 3: that you are more likely to ignore and discount feedback

901
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 3: that reflects poorly on yourself, and so it is especially

902
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 3: important in maintaining a high self assessment in the face

903
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 3: of ego threatening information. It's kind of the narcissistic superpower

904
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 3: is just like, you know, you don't get discouraged when

905
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 3: you do bad on a test. It's like the test

906
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 3: was wrong.

907
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, because you have to you have to deflect

908
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 2: against these things. You could negatively impact the swollen ego

909
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:03,439
Speaker 2: here yeah yeah. Where in reality like that, the ego

910
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 2: swelling probably needs to go down a little bit. Yeah yeah,

911
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 2: it needs a needs a bit more balance here. This

912
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: is the the the engorged bladder needs to be drained.

913
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I guess another way to think about it

914
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 3: is just that this paper exists somewhere within the domain

915
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 3: of trying to understand both the functioning but also the

916
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 3: positives and negatives of self assessment. That you know that

917
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 3: there are good things, there are like empowering things that

918
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 3: can come out of positive self assessment, and there are

919
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 3: also negative and destructive things that can come out of it,

920
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 3: and a lot of maybe, uh, self cultivation and living

921
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 3: the good life is about trying to understand how these

922
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 3: things work in your own mind and balance them correctly,

923
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 3: to empower yourself with enough positive self assessment that like

924
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 3: you feel you feel like you can do things and

925
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 3: you can you know, pursue opportunities and take risks and

926
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 3: stuff like that, but also not puffing yourself up and

927
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 3: thinking you're better than other people.

928
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like you have to be at least

929
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: a little over confident at times to try new things,

930
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 2: to take risks. I mean to a certain extent. It's like,

931
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 2: how many podcast episodes would we not have even done

932
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: had we not been maybe a little over confident at times,

933
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 2: you know, or just open to the idea that's like, yeah,

934
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 2: let's see what happens if we say we're going to

935
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: do an episode on X, Y or Z, you know,

936
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 2: and then you sort it out. Then you see what

937
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 2: your capabilities are, you see what the resources are, and

938
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 2: you find a landing spot.

939
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, that's all I've got on the Psychology Prize

940
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 3: this year. But Rob, you also looked into the twenty

941
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 3: twenty five Aviation Prize, right, yes.

942
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: Yes, this one went to another multinational paper, this one

943
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 2: by Francesco Sanchez, Mariana Melcon, Karmi Corene, and Barry Pinchot

944
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 2: for Ethanol ingestion affects flight performance and echolocation in Egyptian

945
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 2: fruit Bats, published in Behavioral Processes back in twenty ten,

946
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, slightly older paper here. Why is it funny? Well,

947
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,439
Speaker 2: it is a story about fruit bats getting drunk off

948
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 2: of fermented fruit. So it's a perfect combination of two

949
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 2: inherently funny things, drunken animals and just fruit bats. Just

950
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 2: fruit bats in and of themselves. I don't know, I'm

951
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 2: maybe there are a few of us out there, but

952
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 2: I just find the idea of a fruit bat hilarious.

953
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 2: And then fruit bats in the wild are at least

954
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 2: extremely amusing to observe.

955
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 3: I do think certain kinds of fruit bats are among

956
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 3: the funniest and cutest looking animals in nature.

957
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's you know, there's like an adorable awkwardness to

958
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: them at times. I don't know. I observed one in

959
00:56:55,520 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 2: Indonesia like dive bombing a discarded bit of ban by

960
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 2: the beach, and it was I don't know, it's just there.

961
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 2: There was an innocence to what they were up to.

962
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 3: There's a little bit of puppy about them, yeah, but

963
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 3: also a little bit of raggedy rat.

964
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. And while they're clearly not vampire bats, I think

965
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 2: it is always hilarious. Sometimes they kind of stand in

966
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 2: for vampire bats and movies. Yeah. So yeah, So it's

967
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 2: obvious why this is funny. As for like why it

968
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: matters and why it's a study at all. Well, the

969
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 2: consumption of ethyl alcohol and ripe fruits has been documented

970
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 2: in various creatures. We've talked about this in the show before.

971
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 2: I believe, various primates, various birds, Malaysian tree shrews, moose, elephants,

972
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 2: and various insects. I think mainly you're looking at cases

973
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 2: of the ones anyway that were coming up from me

974
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 2: or like fruit flies. But then also there are cases

975
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 2: with bees and nectar, so we're not talking about a

976
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,479
Speaker 2: weird totally like what if scenario, like what if blue

977
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 2: whales drink red bull? You know, it's like because you know,

978
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 2: fruit bats, being of rougivores, are certainly exposed to ethyl

979
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 2: alcohol via ripe fruits, or at least potential to consume them,

980
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 2: and ethyl alcohol is present in all fleshy fruits when

981
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: those fruits have ripened sufficiently, And of course it also

982
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 2: goes without saying that this is the foundational principle behind

983
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 2: human alcoholic beverages as well. So the study in question

984
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 2: here looked at the Egyptian fruit bat, that is Rosettis agypticus,

985
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 2: which certainly can be found in Egypt along the expanse

986
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 2: of the Nile River, but its range includes large areas

987
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 2: throughout Africa, the Middle East, the Mediterranean, and the Indian subcontinent,

988
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 2: so that they are not just found in Egypt. The

989
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 2: researchers here had previously found that the marginal value of

990
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 2: food for Egyptian fruit bats decreases when its ethanol content

991
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 2: exceeds one percent. They hypothesize that if ingested food containing

992
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 2: more than one percent ethanol would be toxic today, these

993
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 2: bats probably causing an abriation that would then affect flight

994
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 2: and echolocation skills. And they predicted that this might be

995
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 2: the reason why Egyptian fruit bats had previously been observed

996
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 2: to avoid highly ripened fruits. So this is another case

997
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 2: where this is not highlighting something that had not been

998
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 2: already observed to some degree, like Egyptian fruit bats seem

999
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 2: to not really go for the hard stuff, and the

1000
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 2: idea might be, well, maybe they don't want to get

1001
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 2: slashed on super right fruit because they have to fly

1002
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 2: everywhere and that could get them into problems.

1003
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 3: Right. Nature makes wine, but I'm not going to drink

1004
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 3: it because I've got to.

1005
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 2: Drive home right right, so you know, And in the

1006
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 2: paper the authors here discuss in abriation in various animals

1007
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: driving home that numerous studies have pointed to animals displaying

1008
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 2: decreased coordination and other negative physiological effects that can result

1009
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 2: in reduced fitness via greater susceptibility to predation as well

1010
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 2: as like fatal and debilitating accidents. And you know, sometimes

1011
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 2: we humans have to be reminded. But this is also

1012
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 2: this also can be the result of alcohol consumption and

1013
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: human beings as well. We may like how it makes

1014
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 2: us feel, but it can certainly make us more susceptible

1015
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 2: to injury via accident in many different ways. And I

1016
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: suppose you know, it would also make you more susceptible

1017
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 2: to predation in cases where an animal predator was already

1018
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 2: in play. If there's a tiger in your backyard already,

1019
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 2: you know, maybe you should limit it to two beers

1020
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 2: if you're having a backyard barbecue. That just sounds like

1021
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 2: reasonable advice.

1022
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I don't think I've ever thought about

1023
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 3: it like this before, but I just realized that probably

1024
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 3: a lot of unnecessary and dangerous human wild animal interactions

1025
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 3: are fueled by alcohol on the humans part. Like when

1026
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 3: you see a video of somebody approaching a wild you know,

1027
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 3: going up to a snake and trying to grab it

1028
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 3: or go you know whatever. I've been a lot of

1029
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 3: a lot of these cases. Some of these people might

1030
01:00:59,000 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 3: be a few beers in.

1031
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well they have very possible. I mean, certainly humans

1032
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 2: don't have to imbibe in order to do stupid things,

1033
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: but you know it probably helps, so so yeah, I

1034
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 2: think basically this all drives home the fact that like

1035
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 2: the changes that take place inside a human being are

1036
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:23,439
Speaker 2: also going to be present to some degree within a bat. Yes,

1037
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 2: we cannot fully put ourselves within the mind of the bat,

1038
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 2: but we can see how this might play out. The

1039
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 2: authors here point out that you know alcohol, alcohol effects

1040
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 2: multiple tissues and functions. It can impact cognition, reaction time, coordination, reflexes,

1041
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 2: and nerve transmission. It can make a human being trip

1042
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 2: over something in their house and hurt themselves. And we're

1043
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 2: just walking, we're not flying, and seeing the world through

1044
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 2: through our screeches and then the reception of those screeches.

1045
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 2: So with the bats here, the researchers found that yeah,

1046
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 2: Egyptian fruit bats took longer to fly between the two

1047
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 2: landing st in this study. I believe they use like

1048
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 2: a hallway. So this is not like you know out

1049
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 2: in the wild. It's in an artificial testing environment after

1050
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 2: being fed ethanol containing food, and this, they argue, indicates

1051
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 2: that the deterrence perceived in Egyptian fruit bats for ethanol

1052
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 2: rich fruit is justified and that its ingestion can result

1053
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 2: in impaired flight and reduce decolocation skills. So again, this

1054
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 2: is one of those things that yes, it kind of

1055
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 2: sounds like a no brainer. If a bat gets drunk,

1056
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 2: it's not going to fly as well, it's not going

1057
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 2: to echo locate as well. But this study seem to

1058
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 2: bear that out as well, because again, this would hurt

1059
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 2: the bat's ability to effectively fly from one location to

1060
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 2: the next safely, which they're having to do through, you know,

1061
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 2: in a varied environment with all sorts of factors tree, limbs, buildings, rocks,

1062
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 2: and so forth, and this could potentially make them more

1063
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 2: susceptible to predation as well. And Egyptian fruit bats have

1064
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 2: many predators, including various raptors and owls. Also the genet

1065
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 2: which is a cat like non feline carnivore, so it's

1066
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 2: ultimately more related to something like a bentarong as opposed

1067
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 2: to a cat. But you look at it and it's

1068
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 2: very much a feline like form and you know it

1069
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 2: is and for it, the Egyptian fruit bat is on

1070
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 2: the menu. So again like this is a study that, yeah,

1071
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 2: it is humorous, but I also I think the study

1072
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 2: is worth highlighting as well because the examples of animals

1073
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 2: that seem to readily engage in high alcohol ripe fruit consumption,

1074
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 2: like well of course, you know humans in our own way,

1075
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:42,320
Speaker 2: but also chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas. This often overshadows cases

1076
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 2: of animals that tend to avoid such fruits, which includes

1077
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,439
Speaker 2: not only Egyptian fruit bats, but orengtex They have also

1078
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 2: been observed in the wild to avoid these super ripe

1079
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 2: ethanol rich fruits. So good role model for the teetotalers

1080
01:03:58,480 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 2: and the sober curious.

1081
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 3: I guess, I guess it's an interesting question if there

1082
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 3: are any generalizations you could make about the biological or

1083
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 3: ecological factors that would cause an animal to be more

1084
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 3: open to consuming ethanol in nature versus less open to it.

1085
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't have the hard facts, but

1086
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 2: just thinking in general about like what does an Egyptian

1087
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,919
Speaker 2: fruit bat and an orangutank have in common? I mean, well,

1088
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 2: you know, the Egyptian the orangutank does not fly, but

1089
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 2: the orangutank does live among the tree limbs. Then there

1090
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 2: could be an argument made that, yeah, this is there's

1091
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 2: maybe sort of a fine tuning of your abilities that

1092
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 2: needs to be in place here, otherwise you're going to plummet.

1093
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 3: But then against from the ground.

1094
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, But then again, I mean many other cases

1095
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 2: are going to involve situations where yeah, you could, you

1096
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 2: could easily make the argument that, well, this is an

1097
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 2: animal that has its predators, it has its environmental hazards,

1098
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 2: and you know, any change to its physiological state via

1099
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 2: the consumption of alcohol is going to be to its detriment.

1100
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:09,919
Speaker 2: But then I guess there's also a case to be made.

1101
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 2: There's probably some exploration to be made anyway about available fruit,

1102
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 2: you know, does it what are its options? Like is

1103
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 2: there a case where there's just suddenly a glut of

1104
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 2: super ripe fruit and that is just what is available, Like,

1105
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 2: that's the biomass you have to consume and then you

1106
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 2: just have to roll with the consequences or do you

1107
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 2: have stuff to choose from? And can you do you

1108
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 2: have the freedom then to say no, thank you to

1109
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 2: the boozy fruit because I would prefer not to glide

1110
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 2: into the side of a tree. Certainly something we could

1111
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 2: come back to on the show with a deeper dive.

1112
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 2: But again I think that often more emphasis is put

1113
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 2: on the fact that there are animals that get drunk

1114
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 2: off of fruit as opposed to looking at those that

1115
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 2: avoid it.

1116
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting, totally, all right, Well does that do it

1117
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 3: for part one of our twenty twenty five Nobel exploration.

1118
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,040
Speaker 2: It certainly is, but hey, we'll be back on Thursday

1119
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 2: with another look at this year's winners for the twenty

1120
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 2: twenty five Ignobel Prizes, so we hope you'll join us then.

1121
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 2: In the meantime, we'd like to remind everyone out there

1122
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 2: that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science

1123
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 2: and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays,

1124
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 2: a short form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays. We

1125
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a

1126
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 2: weird film on Weird House Cinema.

1127
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1128
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1129
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1130
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1131
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact stuff to Blow your

1132
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:47,440
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

1133
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:50,760
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1134
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,640
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1135
01:06:53,760 --> 01:07:11,400
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