1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Let's talk about fertilizer. If fertilizer disappeared from the 2 00:00:25,276 --> 00:00:28,116 Speaker 1: world tomorrow, we wouldn't be able to grow enough food 3 00:00:28,516 --> 00:00:33,476 Speaker 1: and billions of people would die. The key ingredient infertilizer 4 00:00:33,636 --> 00:00:37,716 Speaker 1: is nitrogen, the most abundant element in the atmosphere. It's 5 00:00:37,756 --> 00:00:40,516 Speaker 1: in every breath we breathe, but plants can't get it 6 00:00:40,556 --> 00:00:43,636 Speaker 1: straight from the air. In the early twentieth century, people 7 00:00:43,676 --> 00:00:46,236 Speaker 1: figured out how to get nitrogen out of the air 8 00:00:46,276 --> 00:00:49,716 Speaker 1: and into ammonia, a solid form that plants can use. 9 00:00:50,156 --> 00:00:53,556 Speaker 1: It's called the haber Bosch process. Was an amazing breakthrough, 10 00:00:53,596 --> 00:00:56,956 Speaker 1: one of the key innovations of the twentieth century. But 11 00:00:57,596 --> 00:01:00,556 Speaker 1: getting that nitrogen out of the air and into solid 12 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:05,236 Speaker 1: fertilizer is wildly energy intensive, a big contributor to climate change. 13 00:01:05,596 --> 00:01:08,796 Speaker 1: The process is also inefficient on the back end. Farmers 14 00:01:08,836 --> 00:01:11,876 Speaker 1: wind up putting tons of nitrogen rich fertilizer on their 15 00:01:11,916 --> 00:01:16,276 Speaker 1: soil that winds up just getting washed away. In other words, 16 00:01:16,516 --> 00:01:19,356 Speaker 1: it's been about one hundred years since the last big 17 00:01:19,396 --> 00:01:28,916 Speaker 1: breakthrough infertilizer, and we could really use another one. I'm 18 00:01:28,996 --> 00:01:31,476 Speaker 1: Jacob Goldstein, and this is What's Your Problem? The show 19 00:01:31,476 --> 00:01:33,436 Speaker 1: where I talk to people who are trying to make 20 00:01:33,476 --> 00:01:37,836 Speaker 1: technological progress. My guest today is Carston Temmy. He's a 21 00:01:37,876 --> 00:01:41,916 Speaker 1: bioengineer and the co founder and chief innovation officer of 22 00:01:42,116 --> 00:01:47,316 Speaker 1: Pivot Bio. Carston's problem is this, can you use modern 23 00:01:47,396 --> 00:01:51,316 Speaker 1: genetic tools in order to get microbes that live in 24 00:01:51,356 --> 00:01:58,356 Speaker 1: the soil to grab more nitrogen for crops? So how 25 00:01:59,276 --> 00:02:00,876 Speaker 1: how did you get into nitrogen? 26 00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:07,796 Speaker 2: Well? I worked on this problem as the core focus 27 00:02:07,876 --> 00:02:11,916 Speaker 2: of my PhD research. Graduate school, I got attracted to 28 00:02:13,676 --> 00:02:16,596 Speaker 2: the West Coast to study a field that was brand new. 29 00:02:16,636 --> 00:02:20,116 Speaker 2: It was called synthetic biology, and the premise was that 30 00:02:20,196 --> 00:02:24,796 Speaker 2: we now know enough from sequencing genomes and from being 31 00:02:24,796 --> 00:02:27,836 Speaker 2: able to apply all of the modern discoveries of the 32 00:02:30,996 --> 00:02:35,556 Speaker 2: technology discovered by Silicon Valley to think about microbes in 33 00:02:35,596 --> 00:02:39,076 Speaker 2: their DNA as a new type of programming language. We 34 00:02:39,156 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 2: could reprogram microbes to do really useful things for humanity, 35 00:02:43,476 --> 00:02:47,476 Speaker 2: maybe make better medications, or to be able to help 36 00:02:48,116 --> 00:02:51,956 Speaker 2: make more sustainable building materials. And for me, one of 37 00:02:51,956 --> 00:02:55,476 Speaker 2: the biggest challenges was right here at the crux of agriculture, 38 00:02:55,476 --> 00:02:59,996 Speaker 2: how do we make better performing fertilizer? And synthetic biology 39 00:03:00,036 --> 00:03:03,076 Speaker 2: offered a brand new set of tools that we might 40 00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:04,996 Speaker 2: be able to go tackle that problem. 41 00:03:05,676 --> 00:03:08,556 Speaker 1: So is it right that your first notion is to 42 00:03:10,076 --> 00:03:15,316 Speaker 1: essentially engineer plants so that they can grab nitrogen directly 43 00:03:15,356 --> 00:03:17,596 Speaker 1: out of the air, sort of a cut out the 44 00:03:17,636 --> 00:03:19,876 Speaker 1: middleman strategy. 45 00:03:20,596 --> 00:03:28,756 Speaker 2: It's been maybe an aspiration of academia of science for 46 00:03:28,796 --> 00:03:33,836 Speaker 2: the last fifty or sixty years really since the first tools, 47 00:03:33,876 --> 00:03:37,516 Speaker 2: the enzymes of genetic engineering, were discovered. It was one 48 00:03:37,516 --> 00:03:41,316 Speaker 2: of the two or three examples cited as a real 49 00:03:41,356 --> 00:03:43,236 Speaker 2: big holy grail for the field. 50 00:03:43,036 --> 00:03:45,316 Speaker 1: Because you could just solve the problem. You wouldn't need 51 00:03:45,396 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 1: fertilizer anything, exactly, if we could just literally the nitrogenists 52 00:03:48,956 --> 00:03:51,636 Speaker 1: right there in the air all around the plant, if 53 00:03:51,716 --> 00:03:55,556 Speaker 1: only it could grab it somehow exactly, Let's just put 54 00:03:55,556 --> 00:03:58,996 Speaker 1: the DNA for that enzyme into the plant, and the 55 00:03:59,116 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 1: plant can make its own enzyme, it can make its 56 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:01,756 Speaker 1: own fertilizer. 57 00:04:02,436 --> 00:04:03,916 Speaker 2: VOILA will have solved everything. 58 00:04:04,316 --> 00:04:07,236 Speaker 1: Very appealing, So tell me about your your efforts toward 59 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:07,636 Speaker 1: that end. 60 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:15,796 Speaker 2: Well for us, these seventy years since the first examples 61 00:04:15,836 --> 00:04:21,276 Speaker 2: of DNA were discovered, the first enzymes from genetic engineering, collectively, 62 00:04:21,316 --> 00:04:27,316 Speaker 2: scientists have reverse engineered how a microbe in its DNA 63 00:04:27,516 --> 00:04:32,356 Speaker 2: that program for making the nitrogen producing enzyme is encoded, 64 00:04:32,436 --> 00:04:36,236 Speaker 2: so they reverse engineered the whole blueprint of that program. 65 00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:38,956 Speaker 2: I just happened to be in graduate school when we 66 00:04:38,996 --> 00:04:42,036 Speaker 2: had the chance to complete the final last piece of 67 00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:45,276 Speaker 2: that puzzle, and so we showed you could package up 68 00:04:45,436 --> 00:04:48,156 Speaker 2: all of the genes, all of the DNA in a 69 00:04:48,156 --> 00:04:52,196 Speaker 2: way that could make it transferable to a plant. The 70 00:04:52,396 --> 00:04:56,996 Speaker 2: challenge was that we realized it wasn't the best, most 71 00:04:56,996 --> 00:05:00,276 Speaker 2: efficient way to actually build a product that could change agriculture. 72 00:05:01,076 --> 00:05:06,196 Speaker 2: It was a great example of scientifific discovery, was a 73 00:05:06,196 --> 00:05:10,436 Speaker 2: great example of how to understand the beauty of nature 74 00:05:10,516 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 2: around us, and there was actually an easier way. Rather 75 00:05:13,876 --> 00:05:17,196 Speaker 2: than putting the whole program into a plant. We could 76 00:05:17,276 --> 00:05:20,196 Speaker 2: just get microbes to do more of what they're naturally 77 00:05:20,396 --> 00:05:21,156 Speaker 2: capable of doing. 78 00:05:21,556 --> 00:05:25,196 Speaker 1: Was there a moment when you realized that going straight 79 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:27,036 Speaker 1: to the plant wasn't going to be the best way 80 00:05:27,076 --> 00:05:27,476 Speaker 1: to do it. 81 00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:34,236 Speaker 2: I definitely remember one day early in the days of Pivot, 82 00:05:34,316 --> 00:05:36,876 Speaker 2: where my co founder and I had been working on 83 00:05:37,556 --> 00:05:40,796 Speaker 2: some research for a grant. It had been our initial 84 00:05:40,836 --> 00:05:42,996 Speaker 2: funding for the company came from the bill, and momited 85 00:05:42,996 --> 00:05:45,956 Speaker 2: the Gates Foundation just a very tiny amount of money 86 00:05:45,956 --> 00:05:50,076 Speaker 2: for us to explore the possibility of this blueprint from 87 00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:53,156 Speaker 2: graduate school and turning that into a crop that could 88 00:05:53,156 --> 00:05:56,916 Speaker 2: fix its own nitrogen. And we were having this challenge. 89 00:05:56,956 --> 00:05:58,676 Speaker 2: We said, even if you could take the best of 90 00:05:58,716 --> 00:06:02,236 Speaker 2: those new tools from Crisper and apply them to this challenge, 91 00:06:02,756 --> 00:06:04,916 Speaker 2: it's going to be so many years before we can 92 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:08,276 Speaker 2: build a crop that can fix its own nitrogen. And 93 00:06:08,516 --> 00:06:11,276 Speaker 2: how do we make this go faster? Because the farmers 94 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:13,996 Speaker 2: around the world need a solution faster. So we were 95 00:06:13,996 --> 00:06:16,676 Speaker 2: walking to the coffee shop and we just stopped in 96 00:06:16,716 --> 00:06:22,116 Speaker 2: the middle of the kind of grassy open space between 97 00:06:22,116 --> 00:06:23,836 Speaker 2: our lab and the coffee shop, and we said, you know, 98 00:06:23,916 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 2: let's let's get back to the thing that inspired us most, 99 00:06:27,396 --> 00:06:31,796 Speaker 2: the microbes that have this capability already, and maybe we 100 00:06:31,876 --> 00:06:34,956 Speaker 2: can figure out what stops them from being the solution 101 00:06:35,076 --> 00:06:39,676 Speaker 2: and just attack that as the problems. Let's enable these 102 00:06:39,716 --> 00:06:41,956 Speaker 2: microbes just to do what they're already able to do, 103 00:06:41,996 --> 00:06:42,876 Speaker 2: but do it better. 104 00:06:43,116 --> 00:06:46,116 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the microbes for a minute, just 105 00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:51,436 Speaker 1: how they work in a state of nature. Tell me 106 00:06:51,476 --> 00:06:54,716 Speaker 1: about these microbes like in a world, you know, pre fertilizer, 107 00:06:54,756 --> 00:06:57,236 Speaker 1: non fertilizer, Like, what's going on? Where are they? What 108 00:06:57,276 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 1: are they doing? 109 00:06:58,716 --> 00:07:02,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, just like you or I have a microbiome 110 00:07:02,596 --> 00:07:05,476 Speaker 2: when we hear about it related to digestive health a lot, 111 00:07:05,516 --> 00:07:09,076 Speaker 2: and we can take probiotics, a plant has a micro 112 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:12,596 Speaker 2: biome in its root system as well. And the plant 113 00:07:12,676 --> 00:07:16,276 Speaker 2: is part of photosynthesis, is taking some of that sugar 114 00:07:16,316 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 2: that it produces and it actually exudes it out of 115 00:07:18,716 --> 00:07:21,156 Speaker 2: the roots to feed the microbes in the soil, and 116 00:07:21,196 --> 00:07:23,636 Speaker 2: in exchange, the microbes are supposed to be doing useful 117 00:07:23,636 --> 00:07:29,516 Speaker 2: things like making nitrogen, or producing anti fungal compounds, or 118 00:07:29,556 --> 00:07:33,076 Speaker 2: helping go acquire some of the other nutrients that are 119 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:35,436 Speaker 2: typically found in the rock. But the microbes can help 120 00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:39,156 Speaker 2: make some acids that degrade those amazing. So they're an 121 00:07:39,156 --> 00:07:42,996 Speaker 2: extension of the plant and its ability to survive all 122 00:07:43,116 --> 00:07:46,556 Speaker 2: the different types of challenges and stresses it faces while 123 00:07:46,556 --> 00:07:47,116 Speaker 2: it's growing. 124 00:07:47,836 --> 00:07:52,436 Speaker 1: And this particular microbe or probably more than one, but whatever, 125 00:07:52,516 --> 00:07:56,956 Speaker 1: this particular microbe or set of microbes that are you say, 126 00:07:56,996 --> 00:08:00,836 Speaker 1: fixing nitrogen for the plants. Like, what are they? What's 127 00:08:00,876 --> 00:08:03,596 Speaker 1: their deal? What do they want out of life? 128 00:08:03,716 --> 00:08:07,516 Speaker 2: That's the most important thing that the microbiome of the 129 00:08:07,516 --> 00:08:11,716 Speaker 2: crop is responsible for is is fixing nitrogen, so turning 130 00:08:11,796 --> 00:08:15,436 Speaker 2: nitrogen gas into ammonia and an exchange for sugar from 131 00:08:15,476 --> 00:08:18,876 Speaker 2: the plant. They're food source. They're doing something in return. 132 00:08:18,916 --> 00:08:21,636 Speaker 2: So it's a nice symbiosis that exists between the plant 133 00:08:21,636 --> 00:08:25,516 Speaker 2: and the microbes. And when we fertilize the soil, those 134 00:08:25,596 --> 00:08:28,916 Speaker 2: microbes aren't shielded from all that nitrogen that enters the soil, 135 00:08:28,956 --> 00:08:33,036 Speaker 2: and they sense the nitrogen in the soil and they 136 00:08:33,036 --> 00:08:35,596 Speaker 2: can serve their energy. They stop making the enzymes that 137 00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 2: fix nitrogen. They don't give the plant any ammonia, and 138 00:08:39,236 --> 00:08:43,076 Speaker 2: they just consume the sugars that the plant exudes for free. 139 00:08:42,716 --> 00:08:46,916 Speaker 1: Because they have some whatever, some sense of equilibrium that says, oh, 140 00:08:46,956 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 1: there's enough, there's enough nitrogen in the soil. I'm going 141 00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:52,236 Speaker 1: to stop doing that now, that's right. That's right. And 142 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:55,716 Speaker 1: in sort of a state of nature, that's fine because 143 00:08:55,756 --> 00:08:58,756 Speaker 1: whatever corn doesn't need to grow seven feet tall in 144 00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:01,276 Speaker 1: a month or whatever it does in Iowa now, and 145 00:09:01,316 --> 00:09:03,036 Speaker 1: it's fine and it's no problem. But in the world 146 00:09:03,116 --> 00:09:06,836 Speaker 1: we live in, that's the fundamental problem is, well, those 147 00:09:06,916 --> 00:09:10,636 Speaker 1: microbes don't fix enough nitrogen to grow the super sized 148 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:12,076 Speaker 1: crops we need to grow. 149 00:09:11,916 --> 00:09:15,036 Speaker 2: Now, that's right. So crops go through growth sprits just 150 00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:18,396 Speaker 2: like we do when we're growing up, and as the 151 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:21,076 Speaker 2: crop enters the kind of the middle part of its 152 00:09:21,116 --> 00:09:24,436 Speaker 2: life cycle, it needs to grow very rapidly before it 153 00:09:24,436 --> 00:09:28,796 Speaker 2: starts making the grain. And that's where the disconnect comes from. 154 00:09:29,076 --> 00:09:34,196 Speaker 2: The mineralization rate, the rate of just background nitrogen availability 155 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:36,396 Speaker 2: from the soil can't keep up with that growth spurt. 156 00:09:36,796 --> 00:09:39,996 Speaker 2: That's why we need fertilizer today because we've bread crops 157 00:09:40,036 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 2: to be just so productive. 158 00:09:42,636 --> 00:09:46,636 Speaker 1: So okay, So you have this idea, it's an elegant idea, 159 00:09:46,676 --> 00:09:51,796 Speaker 1: it's an exciting idea. Do you choose as you're trying 160 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 1: to make it work, Like, do you choose a particular 161 00:09:54,316 --> 00:09:56,516 Speaker 1: microbe and say this is the one we're going with, Like, 162 00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:59,316 Speaker 1: what is the process of actually making it work well? 163 00:09:59,356 --> 00:10:02,956 Speaker 2: So we started Pivot in the fall of twenty eleven. 164 00:10:03,156 --> 00:10:04,956 Speaker 2: We started the company and some of the first things 165 00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:09,396 Speaker 2: we did is we wrote letters to different farmers around 166 00:10:09,436 --> 00:10:13,556 Speaker 2: the Midwest, friends and family, anybody who owned land, and 167 00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:16,236 Speaker 2: we said, hey, send us just a bucket of soil, 168 00:10:16,916 --> 00:10:19,836 Speaker 2: and we want to use that to discover microbes that 169 00:10:19,836 --> 00:10:23,076 Speaker 2: can change agriculture, and so we'd pay everybody for a 170 00:10:23,076 --> 00:10:26,876 Speaker 2: bucket of soil, and then we'd start growing little baby 171 00:10:27,356 --> 00:10:31,436 Speaker 2: corn plants seedlings or wheat plants in that soil, and 172 00:10:31,716 --> 00:10:35,196 Speaker 2: the plants would act like a sponge. They would attract 173 00:10:35,196 --> 00:10:37,876 Speaker 2: the microbes that are really important to be part of 174 00:10:37,916 --> 00:10:40,556 Speaker 2: their microbiome. And so when you take a seedling and 175 00:10:40,596 --> 00:10:43,596 Speaker 2: you uproot it, you can then take and the dirt 176 00:10:43,596 --> 00:10:45,596 Speaker 2: off of the roots kind of get the microbes that 177 00:10:45,636 --> 00:10:48,876 Speaker 2: live on the roots of that crop. And it becomes 178 00:10:49,276 --> 00:10:53,476 Speaker 2: a great way to take the billions of different microbes 179 00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:55,636 Speaker 2: that are in the soil and find just the ones 180 00:10:55,676 --> 00:10:58,556 Speaker 2: that have a very close symbiosis with the crop. 181 00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:00,796 Speaker 1: And so what do you find when you do that. 182 00:11:01,356 --> 00:11:05,796 Speaker 2: Well, there's always a lot of great microbes. Some do 183 00:11:06,556 --> 00:11:10,156 Speaker 2: nitrogen fixation, some do other types of functionality for the crop. 184 00:11:10,236 --> 00:11:12,796 Speaker 2: And so we had to look at the DNA of 185 00:11:12,836 --> 00:11:15,116 Speaker 2: all of those microbes and find the ones that have 186 00:11:15,756 --> 00:11:19,476 Speaker 2: the program for making this enzyme for nitrogen fixation. And 187 00:11:19,516 --> 00:11:21,076 Speaker 2: then we had to be able to figure out how 188 00:11:21,076 --> 00:11:23,996 Speaker 2: do you reverse engineer what that DNA says, How does 189 00:11:23,996 --> 00:11:28,196 Speaker 2: it control when that microbe operates the enzyme and from 190 00:11:28,236 --> 00:11:30,716 Speaker 2: that process it gave us the first microbes that really 191 00:11:30,756 --> 00:11:33,076 Speaker 2: could become workable for products. 192 00:11:33,316 --> 00:11:37,476 Speaker 1: And do you end up arriving at one microbe at 193 00:11:37,476 --> 00:11:40,436 Speaker 1: a suite of microbes like where do you land? 194 00:11:41,196 --> 00:11:44,916 Speaker 2: Well, we have dozens of different species of microbes. They're 195 00:11:44,956 --> 00:11:49,076 Speaker 2: all kind of distantly related that we work with today. 196 00:11:49,396 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 2: But in our products, our very first product that launched 197 00:11:52,156 --> 00:11:56,196 Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, it had just one species of microbe 198 00:11:57,116 --> 00:12:00,276 Speaker 2: and it's actually something that in our second version of 199 00:12:00,276 --> 00:12:03,756 Speaker 2: the product, it's become two microbes, So two different species 200 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:06,996 Speaker 2: that work together. They eat different sugars provided by the plant, 201 00:12:07,036 --> 00:12:09,236 Speaker 2: and they live in a little bit different parts to 202 00:12:09,236 --> 00:12:11,636 Speaker 2: the root system, so they work together as a team 203 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:13,876 Speaker 2: to produce even more nitrogen for the crop. 204 00:12:14,036 --> 00:12:16,316 Speaker 1: And that first one is it for corn? Is that right? 205 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:21,196 Speaker 2: It's part of our product for corn, and it's also 206 00:12:21,276 --> 00:12:25,356 Speaker 2: part of our second product that we launched that that 207 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:28,236 Speaker 2: works on wheat. On the label you can use it 208 00:12:28,276 --> 00:12:34,556 Speaker 2: on sorghum, on millet, and oats, barley, sunflowers even so, 209 00:12:35,276 --> 00:12:39,116 Speaker 2: really something that associates with a range of different cereal 210 00:12:39,156 --> 00:12:41,676 Speaker 2: crops and it has a different, a little bit different 211 00:12:41,676 --> 00:12:43,156 Speaker 2: relationship with each of those crops. 212 00:12:44,236 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 1: So okay, So you find these few microbes that seem like, yeah, 213 00:12:47,756 --> 00:12:52,156 Speaker 1: these are the ones, but you need to you need 214 00:12:52,196 --> 00:12:54,836 Speaker 1: to change them, right. The problem is that in their 215 00:12:54,956 --> 00:12:59,196 Speaker 1: natural state they're not making enough nitrogen. How do you 216 00:12:59,276 --> 00:13:02,316 Speaker 1: get them to act the way you want int act? 217 00:13:03,196 --> 00:13:05,676 Speaker 2: Well, so let's dive in a little bit more on 218 00:13:05,716 --> 00:13:11,756 Speaker 2: that very first product. So one of our earliest team members, 219 00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:17,316 Speaker 2: Sarah Block, she had some farmland in the family that 220 00:13:17,356 --> 00:13:20,436 Speaker 2: we got a pail of soil from one of the 221 00:13:20,476 --> 00:13:24,116 Speaker 2: corn plants we grew had an amazing microbe living in 222 00:13:24,156 --> 00:13:28,076 Speaker 2: its root system. It's a species of microbe called clubs 223 00:13:28,116 --> 00:13:32,716 Speaker 2: Yella varicola, so a distant cousin of the Club's yellow 224 00:13:32,716 --> 00:13:36,116 Speaker 2: pneumona that make us sick, except this one is not virulent. 225 00:13:36,236 --> 00:13:41,356 Speaker 2: It is a beneficial microbe for crops, and it has 226 00:13:41,396 --> 00:13:45,356 Speaker 2: the capability to fix nitrogen. The challenge though, is the 227 00:13:45,396 --> 00:13:49,676 Speaker 2: way it's wired. It has a nitrogen sensor that it 228 00:13:49,716 --> 00:13:52,556 Speaker 2: makes and it's part of kind of the cell membrane, 229 00:13:52,636 --> 00:13:58,716 Speaker 2: the outer surrounding membrane around this microbe, so that when 230 00:13:59,076 --> 00:14:02,276 Speaker 2: that sensor senses any sort of nitrogen in the environment, 231 00:14:02,876 --> 00:14:07,196 Speaker 2: it stops the DNA from producing the enzyme for nitrogen fixation. 232 00:14:08,036 --> 00:14:09,676 Speaker 2: And so the very first thing we said is how 233 00:14:09,756 --> 00:14:12,196 Speaker 2: do we how do we get the microbe to unlearn 234 00:14:12,236 --> 00:14:15,956 Speaker 2: this process? How can we disrupt that wiring, the genetic wiring, 235 00:14:16,436 --> 00:14:17,676 Speaker 2: and how do we do it in a way that 236 00:14:17,756 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 2: doesn't require building a transgenic organism, because we don't want 237 00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:26,796 Speaker 2: to release any crazy GMOs into the environment. And so 238 00:14:26,876 --> 00:14:30,116 Speaker 2: we used the modern tools of gene editing to make 239 00:14:30,196 --> 00:14:33,636 Speaker 2: a very precise break in the DNA so that that 240 00:14:33,756 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 2: nitrogen sensor doesn't stop the microbe from producing the nitrogen 241 00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:41,996 Speaker 2: fixing enzyme. And so our approach at pivot is is 242 00:14:42,036 --> 00:14:45,596 Speaker 2: really a concept of saying, we want to simply remodel 243 00:14:45,996 --> 00:14:50,996 Speaker 2: the wiring of the cell so that it can still 244 00:14:50,996 --> 00:14:53,116 Speaker 2: do the same exact things it did before, it just 245 00:14:53,156 --> 00:14:55,996 Speaker 2: might choose to do them under a different set of conditions. 246 00:14:57,636 --> 00:14:59,996 Speaker 1: Now you have a number of products like how does 247 00:14:59,996 --> 00:15:02,196 Speaker 1: it work, what are you selling, who's buying it, and 248 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:02,836 Speaker 1: how does it work? 249 00:15:03,436 --> 00:15:06,156 Speaker 2: Well, so let's talk about what it means to be 250 00:15:06,436 --> 00:15:13,556 Speaker 2: maybe a modern sophisticated corn farmer across the US Midwest. 251 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:18,436 Speaker 2: One of the challenges is there are half a dozen 252 00:15:18,516 --> 00:15:23,196 Speaker 2: different types of fertilizer and timings when you might apply fertilizer. 253 00:15:23,676 --> 00:15:26,996 Speaker 2: The first big one you face is should I apply fertilizer, 254 00:15:27,796 --> 00:15:31,116 Speaker 2: specifically anhydrous ammonia in the fall after I just got 255 00:15:31,116 --> 00:15:34,796 Speaker 2: done harvesting my last crop. It's probably one of the 256 00:15:34,876 --> 00:15:38,556 Speaker 2: cheapest forms of nitrogen you could go buy, but you're 257 00:15:38,596 --> 00:15:40,996 Speaker 2: also going to expose it to all of the winter 258 00:15:41,076 --> 00:15:43,476 Speaker 2: snow and all the spring rains, and so a lot 259 00:15:43,556 --> 00:15:45,396 Speaker 2: of it is going to be lost, Maybe up to 260 00:15:45,436 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 2: eighty percent of your investment is going to wash away 261 00:15:47,956 --> 00:15:52,316 Speaker 2: before the crop ever gets planted. So there's uncertainty because 262 00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:53,956 Speaker 2: who knows whether it's going to be a wet year, 263 00:15:53,996 --> 00:15:57,076 Speaker 2: a dry year, a hot year, a cold year. And 264 00:15:57,116 --> 00:16:00,916 Speaker 2: that same challenge persists every decision point a farmer makes. 265 00:16:01,356 --> 00:16:07,156 Speaker 2: And they're also completely subject to the crazy volatility of 266 00:16:07,156 --> 00:16:12,076 Speaker 2: the commodity pricing markets. So for anybody paying attention to 267 00:16:12,156 --> 00:16:15,516 Speaker 2: commodity prices, across the last couple of years, the Russian 268 00:16:15,596 --> 00:16:20,796 Speaker 2: invasion of Ukraine and all of the supply chain consternation 269 00:16:21,036 --> 00:16:26,276 Speaker 2: sent fertilizer prices to record levels. So that ripple effect 270 00:16:26,396 --> 00:16:30,076 Speaker 2: means the challenge of managing one of the biggest expenses 271 00:16:30,116 --> 00:16:34,516 Speaker 2: on a farm is not just stressful, but it also 272 00:16:34,556 --> 00:16:36,516 Speaker 2: could be the thing that separates a farm from being 273 00:16:36,556 --> 00:16:41,076 Speaker 2: profitable or being underwater each year. So that's the challenge 274 00:16:41,756 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 2: that we're operating in and what we try to do 275 00:16:44,876 --> 00:16:48,516 Speaker 2: at Pivot is design these microbes that it makes everything 276 00:16:48,596 --> 00:16:52,436 Speaker 2: easier and it reduces risk, and it means that what 277 00:16:52,476 --> 00:16:55,916 Speaker 2: we're delivering is not just the best performing nitrogen, the 278 00:16:55,916 --> 00:16:58,276 Speaker 2: best way to get that nitrogen into the crop when 279 00:16:58,316 --> 00:17:00,996 Speaker 2: it needs it during its growth spurt, but it also 280 00:17:01,276 --> 00:17:06,196 Speaker 2: is the most resilient when it comes to the return 281 00:17:06,236 --> 00:17:11,556 Speaker 2: on investment for the farmer, imperviousness to the unpredictable weather, 282 00:17:12,276 --> 00:17:15,356 Speaker 2: and also then the best as a ripple effect for 283 00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:19,836 Speaker 2: the environment for the soil health, the water, no runoff, 284 00:17:19,876 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 2: and no greenhouse gas emissions. 285 00:17:22,196 --> 00:17:28,436 Speaker 1: So in more specific terms, like you know, just just 286 00:17:28,556 --> 00:17:31,716 Speaker 1: more narrowly, yeah, what does it do? Like what are 287 00:17:31,716 --> 00:17:32,676 Speaker 1: you selling and what does it do? 288 00:17:33,436 --> 00:17:36,516 Speaker 2: So we've made two forms of our product today. One 289 00:17:36,556 --> 00:17:39,756 Speaker 2: is a liquid and then the other is a dry powder. 290 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:44,916 Speaker 2: The liquid can get added to tanks on the machinery 291 00:17:44,916 --> 00:17:48,676 Speaker 2: that plants the seeds for that crop, and as the 292 00:17:49,076 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 2: planter is going across a field, a little squirt of 293 00:17:52,556 --> 00:17:55,196 Speaker 2: microbes gets added on top of the seed and that 294 00:17:55,676 --> 00:17:58,756 Speaker 2: furrow before the soil gets closed back up. And with 295 00:17:58,836 --> 00:18:03,476 Speaker 2: the other product, before the farmer even takes possession of 296 00:18:03,516 --> 00:18:07,036 Speaker 2: the seed that they're going to plant, are microbes. The 297 00:18:07,076 --> 00:18:10,356 Speaker 2: little dried powder can get it added as a coating 298 00:18:10,396 --> 00:18:13,236 Speaker 2: onto the seed. So then when the seed gets planted, 299 00:18:13,236 --> 00:18:16,276 Speaker 2: our microbes are already present and the first routs that 300 00:18:16,276 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 2: that form start forming that symbioso with the microbes. So 301 00:18:20,356 --> 00:18:23,356 Speaker 2: in both cases simplify what it means to use our 302 00:18:23,356 --> 00:18:26,076 Speaker 2: product and just kind of add it into an existing 303 00:18:26,076 --> 00:18:27,796 Speaker 2: step in what it means to manage a farm. 304 00:18:29,436 --> 00:18:33,196 Speaker 1: I want to read you aligned from this University of 305 00:18:33,196 --> 00:18:37,756 Speaker 1: Minnesota study of proven some version of your product. It's 306 00:18:37,756 --> 00:18:41,716 Speaker 1: said proven can have an impact on corn growth, but 307 00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:44,756 Speaker 1: may not reduce the rate of nitrogen required by corn 308 00:18:44,796 --> 00:18:48,916 Speaker 1: across all locations and benefits maybe specific to soil types 309 00:18:48,956 --> 00:18:54,156 Speaker 1: and specific environmental conditions. Is that consistent with what you've found. 310 00:18:56,356 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 2: What we've found is is the ability to improve how 311 00:19:01,956 --> 00:19:06,676 Speaker 2: we use fertilizer and to lean on products that pivot 312 00:19:06,716 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 2: makes the microbes that fix nitrogen as the new foundation 313 00:19:09,436 --> 00:19:13,156 Speaker 2: for a fertilizer strategy. It really there's there's two big 314 00:19:13,236 --> 00:19:18,516 Speaker 2: challenges that are important. One is these are living microbes. 315 00:19:18,836 --> 00:19:22,956 Speaker 2: They require more TLC to be able to use effectively 316 00:19:23,036 --> 00:19:26,516 Speaker 2: than that big bulky tons of chemical fertilizer that are 317 00:19:26,516 --> 00:19:29,836 Speaker 2: farmers normally going to use. So we need to make 318 00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:33,356 Speaker 2: sure that when our customers are using our products, we're 319 00:19:33,396 --> 00:19:36,316 Speaker 2: keeping those microbes alive so that when they're in the 320 00:19:36,356 --> 00:19:38,836 Speaker 2: soil they're growing in symbiosis with the crop. 321 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:43,036 Speaker 1: What does TLC mean in that context, Well. 322 00:19:42,916 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 2: It's something where we want to make sure that when 323 00:19:45,916 --> 00:19:48,476 Speaker 2: we're delivering our microbes, from the time we ship them 324 00:19:48,556 --> 00:19:51,716 Speaker 2: until they get in the soil, the microbes aren't freezing, 325 00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:53,836 Speaker 2: they're not left out in the sun to bake in 326 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:55,636 Speaker 2: one hundred plus degree weather. 327 00:19:56,996 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 1: They're sending a living thing, right, that's not just sending 328 00:19:59,916 --> 00:20:00,956 Speaker 1: a compound. Yeah. 329 00:20:01,076 --> 00:20:03,316 Speaker 2: Interesting, And if it's our liquid product when they get 330 00:20:03,356 --> 00:20:07,116 Speaker 2: put into that tank on the planter, we're not mixing 331 00:20:07,156 --> 00:20:10,076 Speaker 2: in some sort of a anti micro all agent with 332 00:20:10,156 --> 00:20:11,196 Speaker 2: the tank as well. 333 00:20:11,356 --> 00:20:14,316 Speaker 1: Which could totally happen in this kind of totally totally. 334 00:20:14,476 --> 00:20:18,356 Speaker 2: And that that's to be expected in some respects because 335 00:20:18,396 --> 00:20:22,076 Speaker 2: this is a new technology that that we're we're introducing 336 00:20:22,196 --> 00:20:22,596 Speaker 2: so just. 337 00:20:22,636 --> 00:20:26,116 Speaker 1: Execution, just lots of just like nuts and bolts, logistics, 338 00:20:26,156 --> 00:20:29,596 Speaker 1: execution stuff that is that's totally hard. And the environment 339 00:20:29,636 --> 00:20:31,676 Speaker 1: is heterogeneous in a way that is hard. 340 00:20:32,276 --> 00:20:35,396 Speaker 2: That's right. And and then the second thing that's important 341 00:20:35,636 --> 00:20:40,516 Speaker 2: is when when we add fertilizer to a field, there's 342 00:20:40,556 --> 00:20:45,836 Speaker 2: a point when additional nitrogen doesn't lead to more crop yield. 343 00:20:46,156 --> 00:20:49,236 Speaker 2: Something else becomes limiting, whether it's the sunlight or a 344 00:20:49,276 --> 00:20:53,316 Speaker 2: different nutrient, or or maybe the total rainfall that that 345 00:20:53,396 --> 00:20:56,516 Speaker 2: crop receives. And so there's there's a point where you 346 00:20:56,556 --> 00:21:00,556 Speaker 2: get diminishing returns on the amount of fertilizer you can add. 347 00:21:00,756 --> 00:21:03,276 Speaker 2: Right now, the challenge is always trying to figure out 348 00:21:03,276 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 2: what that best balance is, and that perfect point changes 349 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:09,596 Speaker 2: every year because of how much fertilizer can it's washed 350 00:21:09,596 --> 00:21:11,796 Speaker 2: away by the rain since the amount of rain is 351 00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:14,756 Speaker 2: different every year. And so the biggest challenge we have 352 00:21:14,996 --> 00:21:17,636 Speaker 2: is trying to figure out how do you get a 353 00:21:17,796 --> 00:21:22,276 Speaker 2: farmer to get the best possible experience when they're first 354 00:21:22,356 --> 00:21:25,636 Speaker 2: using our product, to really build up the confidence in 355 00:21:25,676 --> 00:21:29,316 Speaker 2: getting to a better outcome each year, when the most 356 00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:31,996 Speaker 2: variable thing in that whole equation is fertilizer. 357 00:21:32,596 --> 00:21:35,596 Speaker 1: You really want it to work the first time, Like, 358 00:21:35,676 --> 00:21:37,716 Speaker 1: that's a big one for you, right, the first year, 359 00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:39,276 Speaker 1: you really want it to be great. 360 00:21:39,396 --> 00:21:42,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so there's a lot of things that can 361 00:21:42,836 --> 00:21:47,356 Speaker 2: separate the perfect amount of nitrogen and the crop from 362 00:21:47,396 --> 00:21:51,716 Speaker 2: turning into a perfect amount of yield, whether it's pest 363 00:21:51,796 --> 00:21:57,716 Speaker 2: pressure or droughts or other types of nutrient limitations. And 364 00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:00,356 Speaker 2: so everything we try to do is to set that 365 00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:04,196 Speaker 2: farmer up to see the healthiest possible crop and put 366 00:22:04,236 --> 00:22:07,716 Speaker 2: them in the best position to realize the potential yield 367 00:22:07,756 --> 00:22:10,756 Speaker 2: of what that crop come pretty use, and do it 368 00:22:10,756 --> 00:22:13,996 Speaker 2: in a way that really can overcome the unpredictability of 369 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:15,076 Speaker 2: the fertilizer involved. 370 00:22:15,636 --> 00:22:19,516 Speaker 1: So how big is Pivot, Like, how many acres of 371 00:22:19,676 --> 00:22:24,036 Speaker 1: farmland are have your microbes in them? You know? This year? 372 00:22:24,956 --> 00:22:28,996 Speaker 2: Well, so Pivot has been around for a bit more 373 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:30,996 Speaker 2: than a decade and our products have been in the 374 00:22:31,036 --> 00:22:35,316 Speaker 2: marketplace for just about five years. We've been able to 375 00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:40,796 Speaker 2: deliver nitrogen on more than ten million acres across that time, 376 00:22:40,876 --> 00:22:45,756 Speaker 2: So millions of acres of products being used just this 377 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:50,116 Speaker 2: year alone. And we're in a spot that our products 378 00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:53,876 Speaker 2: are used on corn crops across the US on wheat 379 00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:58,676 Speaker 2: and sorghum, sunflower, barley, some other small grains, and we're 380 00:22:58,876 --> 00:23:01,836 Speaker 2: in the process of being able to establish an international 381 00:23:01,836 --> 00:23:05,596 Speaker 2: presence in places like Brazil, with an eye towards Canada 382 00:23:05,636 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 2: as well. 383 00:23:06,716 --> 00:23:09,116 Speaker 1: Is it right? I mean, the idea at this point 384 00:23:09,116 --> 00:23:13,676 Speaker 1: point is not to replace fertilizer, but to supplement it. 385 00:23:13,916 --> 00:23:17,516 Speaker 2: Today, our microbes are supplying about a quarter of the 386 00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:22,116 Speaker 2: nitrogen that the corn crop needs, Okay, And it's something 387 00:23:22,156 --> 00:23:25,356 Speaker 2: where we have the ability to keep improving our microbes, 388 00:23:25,356 --> 00:23:28,876 Speaker 2: improve their ability to make that enzyme and share the 389 00:23:28,956 --> 00:23:32,756 Speaker 2: ammonia back with the crop, and improve their ability to 390 00:23:32,796 --> 00:23:35,996 Speaker 2: match up perfectly with that life cycle the growth spurts 391 00:23:36,036 --> 00:23:39,156 Speaker 2: in the plant, so we'll see that our products can 392 00:23:39,196 --> 00:23:42,916 Speaker 2: become even a bigger portion of the total nutrient supply 393 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:47,036 Speaker 2: the crop needs and allow farmers to really start focusing 394 00:23:47,076 --> 00:23:50,636 Speaker 2: on what's the next big challenge that prevents them from 395 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:55,356 Speaker 2: reaching the full potential yield that's baked into the crop genetics. 396 00:23:58,436 --> 00:24:01,996 Speaker 1: After the break the best and worst things about trying 397 00:24:01,996 --> 00:24:15,196 Speaker 1: to sell a new product to farmers, What are you 398 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:17,596 Speaker 1: trying to figure out next? Like, what's the lab side 399 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:18,996 Speaker 1: of your business look like now? 400 00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:26,196 Speaker 2: We've been breeding crops for many, many years, for decades, 401 00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:29,716 Speaker 2: for centuries, and especially over the last century with an 402 00:24:29,716 --> 00:24:34,116 Speaker 2: intensivity and a set of technologies that have been unprecedented 403 00:24:34,156 --> 00:24:38,436 Speaker 2: in our history. And we've underappreciated and not even known 404 00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:42,996 Speaker 2: about the microbes in the roots of a plant until 405 00:24:43,116 --> 00:24:48,716 Speaker 2: just recently. So our ability to tap into getting microbes 406 00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:51,476 Speaker 2: to capture as much of that sugar that the crop 407 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:55,996 Speaker 2: can provide, being able to efficiently grow in tandem with 408 00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:59,196 Speaker 2: the roots of the plant, being able to share ammonia 409 00:24:59,316 --> 00:25:02,196 Speaker 2: back with the crop, and do that in a way 410 00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:05,276 Speaker 2: that is really tuned with the metabolism of how a 411 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:09,236 Speaker 2: crop produces green and yield. There's a lot of opportunity 412 00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:13,436 Speaker 2: to not just discover new science, but turn that into 413 00:25:13,636 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 2: products that really can supply all the nutrient needs of 414 00:25:16,796 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 2: the crop and beyond. I think we are very much 415 00:25:20,076 --> 00:25:23,996 Speaker 2: in the early days of what can be a transformational 416 00:25:24,036 --> 00:25:27,556 Speaker 2: technology and segment of the industry for decades to come. 417 00:25:28,316 --> 00:25:30,996 Speaker 1: What's an interesting constraint you're trying to solve for at 418 00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:32,196 Speaker 1: a technical level. 419 00:25:32,316 --> 00:25:34,476 Speaker 2: And if you have a new idea for an app 420 00:25:35,036 --> 00:25:38,836 Speaker 2: in Silicon Valley, you can program it and launch it 421 00:25:38,956 --> 00:25:41,036 Speaker 2: or test it out as fast as the pace of thought. 422 00:25:41,836 --> 00:25:46,636 Speaker 2: And in agriculture, everything we do is centered on how 423 00:25:46,676 --> 00:25:49,156 Speaker 2: fast a plant grows. There are many parts of the 424 00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:51,516 Speaker 2: world where you can grow just one crop every year, 425 00:25:51,756 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 2: and so if we had a new idea and we 426 00:25:53,356 --> 00:25:56,236 Speaker 2: wanted to test it out, it might be just one 427 00:25:56,276 --> 00:25:57,196 Speaker 2: experiment per year that. 428 00:25:57,156 --> 00:25:59,516 Speaker 1: We're so your rate living e step is that you 429 00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:01,076 Speaker 1: got to wait for the plants to grow. 430 00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:03,196 Speaker 2: Now, one of the things we've done at Pivot is 431 00:26:03,196 --> 00:26:07,716 Speaker 2: we have built the most sophisticated models of how a 432 00:26:07,876 --> 00:26:11,876 Speaker 2: micro behave and how what we do with the gene 433 00:26:11,956 --> 00:26:16,836 Speaker 2: editing rewires when it chooses to make nitrogen, and we 434 00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:19,196 Speaker 2: can integrate that with all the world's best models of 435 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:23,996 Speaker 2: how crops grow and a footprint that allows us to 436 00:26:24,076 --> 00:26:28,796 Speaker 2: do real world experiments at a scale never before seen. 437 00:26:29,436 --> 00:26:31,916 Speaker 2: Those things let us be able to tackle problems in 438 00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:36,956 Speaker 2: a more efficient way or experiment digitally long before you 439 00:26:36,996 --> 00:26:39,116 Speaker 2: ever do something in the physical. 440 00:26:38,716 --> 00:26:40,716 Speaker 1: But you still got to grow the core and see if. 441 00:26:40,956 --> 00:26:42,876 Speaker 2: You still got to grow all those crops. 442 00:26:43,796 --> 00:26:47,716 Speaker 1: I mean, well, let's talk about sort of the future 443 00:26:47,756 --> 00:26:51,956 Speaker 1: of chemical fertilizer and in particular ammonia. Right, super energy 444 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:55,196 Speaker 1: intensive would be wonderful if you could put it out 445 00:26:55,196 --> 00:26:58,956 Speaker 1: of business. But like, what, what's that? What's that story? 446 00:26:59,636 --> 00:27:01,756 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think that the fertilizer business and the 447 00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:05,156 Speaker 2: Haberbosch process of making ammonia will go away anytime soon. 448 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:08,476 Speaker 2: And that's that's not a bad thing. It's it's not 449 00:27:08,836 --> 00:27:12,956 Speaker 2: a thing where I think we are successful only if 450 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:16,636 Speaker 2: the fertilizer industry goes bankrupt. I think this is something 451 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:19,796 Speaker 2: where this is an opportunity to be able to do 452 00:27:19,876 --> 00:27:24,716 Speaker 2: better and reach new places through a very innovative, disruptive technology. 453 00:27:25,876 --> 00:27:30,436 Speaker 2: We're a better way to spend new capital. Our ability 454 00:27:30,476 --> 00:27:36,076 Speaker 2: to expand our footprint our supply chain is radically cheaper 455 00:27:36,236 --> 00:27:38,796 Speaker 2: than building a new Harberbosh facility that's going to cost 456 00:27:38,836 --> 00:27:41,636 Speaker 2: billions of dollars and take you know, a decade to 457 00:27:41,676 --> 00:27:46,276 Speaker 2: get operational. We're really just like a micro brim making 458 00:27:46,916 --> 00:27:51,356 Speaker 2: a handful of Baker's East and I and and that 459 00:27:51,556 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 2: is transformational. It means there's a lot more efficiency both 460 00:27:57,356 --> 00:28:01,316 Speaker 2: in dollars uh and and and just physical time invested 461 00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:05,276 Speaker 2: to be able to complement what the fertilizer industry is 462 00:28:05,316 --> 00:28:06,356 Speaker 2: set up to be able to do. 463 00:28:07,476 --> 00:28:09,956 Speaker 1: I know that the context we're talking about. There's a 464 00:28:09,996 --> 00:28:13,436 Speaker 1: ton going on, and there's chemical fertilizer and there's pesticide, 465 00:28:13,476 --> 00:28:17,276 Speaker 1: and the plants themselves are these weird superplants that we've read. 466 00:28:17,636 --> 00:28:23,516 Speaker 1: And yet still I wonder, when you're changing the genome 467 00:28:23,596 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 1: of this microbe, like, is there any worry that you're 468 00:28:28,356 --> 00:28:31,836 Speaker 1: going to mess up the microbiome in some unintended consequences 469 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:33,076 Speaker 1: kind of way. 470 00:28:34,076 --> 00:28:37,116 Speaker 2: There's a lot we do to make sure that we 471 00:28:37,236 --> 00:28:41,556 Speaker 2: understand how our products work, that they are fitting into 472 00:28:42,516 --> 00:28:47,076 Speaker 2: the crop system in a very smooth, elegant way, that 473 00:28:47,116 --> 00:28:51,876 Speaker 2: they go back into the native microbiomes where they came from, 474 00:28:52,396 --> 00:28:56,036 Speaker 2: and they're performing just like before. One of the things 475 00:28:56,036 --> 00:28:58,036 Speaker 2: we know is that when we do the gene editing 476 00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:03,916 Speaker 2: to turn on nitrogen fixational it makes the microbes less resilient, 477 00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 2: less robust than their original parents. That means that they 478 00:29:08,836 --> 00:29:12,796 Speaker 2: die off more quickly than the native microbes do. So 479 00:29:12,836 --> 00:29:15,036 Speaker 2: when we do testing, we don't see any traces of 480 00:29:15,076 --> 00:29:18,516 Speaker 2: our microbes left in the roots. Once the crop really 481 00:29:18,556 --> 00:29:22,756 Speaker 2: gets to the point of harvest that I just natively 482 00:29:22,796 --> 00:29:25,796 Speaker 2: the crop. When it's harvested, it stops making those sugars. 483 00:29:26,076 --> 00:29:29,316 Speaker 2: So the microbes in the soil die off when there 484 00:29:29,476 --> 00:29:33,516 Speaker 2: isn't a parent crop to defeat it. But we especially 485 00:29:33,516 --> 00:29:34,796 Speaker 2: see that with our products. 486 00:29:35,476 --> 00:29:41,916 Speaker 1: So still a small company, what might go wrong? Like, 487 00:29:42,716 --> 00:29:45,836 Speaker 1: what are some reasons you know things might not work 488 00:29:45,876 --> 00:29:46,876 Speaker 1: out the way you hope. 489 00:29:47,876 --> 00:29:49,996 Speaker 2: Well, I think the mode we're in right now with 490 00:29:50,036 --> 00:29:55,156 Speaker 2: Pivot is we have this great disruptive technology. We have 491 00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:59,556 Speaker 2: built a business model that is innovative and allows us 492 00:29:59,596 --> 00:30:02,596 Speaker 2: to get our products into the marketplace when it's typically 493 00:30:02,596 --> 00:30:05,556 Speaker 2: been very hard to innovate in agriculture. And now we 494 00:30:05,636 --> 00:30:07,636 Speaker 2: have the challenge of how do we bring that to 495 00:30:07,716 --> 00:30:10,396 Speaker 2: scale and how do we touch as many lives around 496 00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:12,916 Speaker 2: the world as we can, all while we're trying to 497 00:30:12,956 --> 00:30:17,236 Speaker 2: manage our cash reserves and what it means to have 498 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:19,876 Speaker 2: a growing team that needs to figure out how to 499 00:30:19,876 --> 00:30:23,196 Speaker 2: work in more places around the world. That's a lot 500 00:30:23,236 --> 00:30:28,556 Speaker 2: of operational risk, and I think the challenge that we 501 00:30:28,716 --> 00:30:31,676 Speaker 2: face is there's a chance that that all might not 502 00:30:31,756 --> 00:30:35,876 Speaker 2: work out. I think that the real risk is that 503 00:30:36,076 --> 00:30:38,916 Speaker 2: we're not able to move fast enough to be the 504 00:30:38,996 --> 00:30:42,116 Speaker 2: leading innovator in the space, that there becomes competition that 505 00:30:42,196 --> 00:30:43,916 Speaker 2: slows us down and trips us up. 506 00:30:44,596 --> 00:30:47,156 Speaker 1: So in that universe, somebody's going to do what you're doing. 507 00:30:47,276 --> 00:30:49,036 Speaker 1: The question is is it going to be you or 508 00:30:49,076 --> 00:30:50,156 Speaker 1: is somebody gonna. 509 00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:55,916 Speaker 2: One hundred percent? Like what we've been successful is really 510 00:30:55,996 --> 00:31:02,196 Speaker 2: showing the potential of where microbes in general and nitrogen 511 00:31:02,236 --> 00:31:06,836 Speaker 2: fixation specifically can change agriculture. It will happen, We will 512 00:31:06,876 --> 00:31:11,796 Speaker 2: see a transformational shift in how our agricultural systems around 513 00:31:11,796 --> 00:31:15,476 Speaker 2: the world operate. And I think the operational risk for 514 00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:17,716 Speaker 2: PIVOT is all about whether we are going to be 515 00:31:18,196 --> 00:31:21,236 Speaker 2: the ones who lead the way in bringing the change 516 00:31:21,236 --> 00:31:21,716 Speaker 2: to the world. 517 00:31:22,636 --> 00:31:26,236 Speaker 1: So if you think about the work you're doing and 518 00:31:26,276 --> 00:31:29,596 Speaker 1: project ahead, you know, often I'll say five years, but 519 00:31:29,636 --> 00:31:31,156 Speaker 1: given as you pointed out that you got to wait 520 00:31:31,196 --> 00:31:33,556 Speaker 1: for the cornder grow every year, let's say twenty years. 521 00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:36,116 Speaker 1: You know, if you think I had twenty years and 522 00:31:36,516 --> 00:31:39,556 Speaker 1: things happen the way you want them to happen, what's 523 00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:40,356 Speaker 1: the world look like. 524 00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:47,636 Speaker 2: I'll hit on three things that I think are going 525 00:31:47,716 --> 00:31:50,676 Speaker 2: to be important to pay attention to, either because it's 526 00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:54,956 Speaker 2: places we're investing internally to improve what we do, how 527 00:31:54,956 --> 00:31:59,116 Speaker 2: we bring that a spotlight to these topics, or the 528 00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 2: potential of where this could could ripple. One of them 529 00:32:02,596 --> 00:32:06,476 Speaker 2: is I think we're going to see a continued trend 530 00:32:06,476 --> 00:32:11,836 Speaker 2: of improving agricultural productivity with better efficiency and especially better resiliency. 531 00:32:12,716 --> 00:32:16,396 Speaker 2: And when it becomes even more challenging every day to 532 00:32:16,436 --> 00:32:19,356 Speaker 2: be a farmer and turner profit every year, I think 533 00:32:19,436 --> 00:32:22,996 Speaker 2: that we're going to have a big impact on the 534 00:32:23,036 --> 00:32:26,596 Speaker 2: continuity of our agricultural system. So that's the first one, 535 00:32:26,596 --> 00:32:30,316 Speaker 2: and the second one for me is we're seeing a 536 00:32:30,516 --> 00:32:35,876 Speaker 2: massive potential impact on the entire sustainability of agriculture. So 537 00:32:35,996 --> 00:32:40,676 Speaker 2: just in the last two years, we've seen that replacement 538 00:32:40,676 --> 00:32:44,996 Speaker 2: of fertilizer by our customers has translated to nearly a 539 00:32:45,116 --> 00:32:49,276 Speaker 2: million metric tons of avoided CO two emissions, either the 540 00:32:49,276 --> 00:32:52,876 Speaker 2: CO two from the hybrid wash manufacturing process and the 541 00:32:52,916 --> 00:32:58,636 Speaker 2: transportation of fertilizer, or the prevented nitrous oxide emissions from 542 00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:02,516 Speaker 2: fertilizer degrading in fields. And we're just getting started. So 543 00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:05,676 Speaker 2: that sustainability impact, whether it's clean air or clean water 544 00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:09,756 Speaker 2: or healthier soils, is going to have the the potential 545 00:33:09,796 --> 00:33:13,356 Speaker 2: to really multiply across the decades to come. And then 546 00:33:13,396 --> 00:33:19,556 Speaker 2: I think the third is about really food security, whether 547 00:33:19,796 --> 00:33:27,996 Speaker 2: it is the ability of more industrialized agricultural regions like 548 00:33:28,196 --> 00:33:31,756 Speaker 2: the Midwest in the US being even more capable of 549 00:33:31,796 --> 00:33:36,396 Speaker 2: producing a higher efficiency independent of some of the uncertainties 550 00:33:36,396 --> 00:33:40,396 Speaker 2: of global supply chains, or places like Sub Saharan Africa 551 00:33:40,676 --> 00:33:44,876 Speaker 2: where there are very uncertain supply chains for fertilizer, the 552 00:33:44,996 --> 00:33:47,836 Speaker 2: chances that a farmer there may not even be able 553 00:33:47,836 --> 00:33:52,556 Speaker 2: to acquire fertilizer, and if they can acquire it, usually 554 00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:55,516 Speaker 2: at a price point that far exceeds the value of 555 00:33:55,596 --> 00:34:00,036 Speaker 2: using fertilizer. So it's an ability to take many parts 556 00:34:00,076 --> 00:34:02,996 Speaker 2: of the world and have access to the nutrients that 557 00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:05,956 Speaker 2: are needed to fuel a crop in a way that 558 00:34:06,156 --> 00:34:11,236 Speaker 2: can decouple many of the limitations of the traditional supply chains. 559 00:34:11,676 --> 00:34:13,276 Speaker 2: So I think those are the three big areas that 560 00:34:13,316 --> 00:34:17,636 Speaker 2: I see some really exciting opportunity in the decades ahead. 561 00:34:21,596 --> 00:34:23,756 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round 562 00:34:36,556 --> 00:34:39,316 Speaker 1: almost done. We'll just do a lightning round and then 563 00:34:39,356 --> 00:34:44,396 Speaker 1: we'll be done. Do you have a garden, I do. 564 00:34:45,716 --> 00:34:47,916 Speaker 1: What did best for you this year? What was the 565 00:34:47,956 --> 00:34:48,716 Speaker 1: hit of the garden? 566 00:34:49,796 --> 00:34:52,196 Speaker 2: Well, my kids. I've got a seven year old and 567 00:34:52,196 --> 00:34:55,116 Speaker 2: a ten year old, and we love gardening together. I 568 00:34:55,156 --> 00:35:00,236 Speaker 2: think pumpkins are always fun. We grow a lot of 569 00:35:00,356 --> 00:35:04,196 Speaker 2: flowers that my daughter loves to grow, So zinnias and 570 00:35:04,236 --> 00:35:09,996 Speaker 2: dahlia's are the ones that are high on her list. 571 00:35:10,796 --> 00:35:12,476 Speaker 1: What's your second favorite element? 572 00:35:14,276 --> 00:35:20,116 Speaker 2: Well, I will go with oxygen. I think it it 573 00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:24,396 Speaker 2: is both such a fuel for keeping us alive. But 574 00:35:24,476 --> 00:35:30,556 Speaker 2: I also I love wine and everything from viniculture and analogy, 575 00:35:30,716 --> 00:35:34,076 Speaker 2: and oxygen is usually the enemy of wine. So oxygen 576 00:35:34,156 --> 00:35:38,836 Speaker 2: is both powerful and also something that can really be 577 00:35:39,116 --> 00:35:42,316 Speaker 2: a challenge for not just wine but the enzyme of 578 00:35:42,396 --> 00:35:43,756 Speaker 2: nitrogen fixation itself. 579 00:35:44,836 --> 00:35:46,436 Speaker 1: When was the last time you played the trumpet? 580 00:35:48,276 --> 00:35:52,156 Speaker 2: Oh, man, that's a good question. It's been a while. 581 00:35:52,156 --> 00:35:53,236 Speaker 2: It's probably been a decade. 582 00:35:54,556 --> 00:35:56,996 Speaker 1: There was another version where you were like, it's right here. 583 00:35:57,116 --> 00:36:05,356 Speaker 1: That was my dream. What's the best thing about working 584 00:36:05,356 --> 00:36:06,476 Speaker 1: with farmers. 585 00:36:08,116 --> 00:36:11,636 Speaker 2: In a world where so much seems more virtual or 586 00:36:11,676 --> 00:36:13,716 Speaker 2: digital all the time? Being able to get back to 587 00:36:14,276 --> 00:36:21,196 Speaker 2: something physical, something that just requires a lot of hard 588 00:36:21,236 --> 00:36:27,076 Speaker 2: work in person. That makes for some really invigorating conversations 589 00:36:27,116 --> 00:36:30,676 Speaker 2: and just a lot of times that I shared appreciation 590 00:36:30,876 --> 00:36:32,676 Speaker 2: at the end of a day, end of hard work, 591 00:36:33,276 --> 00:36:35,596 Speaker 2: to sit down together and spend time together. 592 00:36:36,396 --> 00:36:39,036 Speaker 1: What's a hard thing about working with farmers? 593 00:36:39,396 --> 00:36:43,916 Speaker 2: Well, on one hand, a farmer needs to be risk averse. 594 00:36:44,436 --> 00:36:47,476 Speaker 2: So any new technology, any new innovation, it's not like 595 00:36:47,556 --> 00:36:49,316 Speaker 2: you can just download a new app, try it out 596 00:36:49,356 --> 00:36:50,036 Speaker 2: and delete it right. 597 00:36:50,156 --> 00:36:52,116 Speaker 1: There's a huge downside if it's not. 598 00:36:52,236 --> 00:36:54,316 Speaker 2: You might go out of business and lose that family 599 00:36:54,356 --> 00:36:56,836 Speaker 2: farm that's been around for generations if you make the 600 00:36:56,876 --> 00:36:59,676 Speaker 2: wrong bet. So the hardest part about trying to bring 601 00:36:59,716 --> 00:37:02,276 Speaker 2: new technology on the farm is figuring out the risk 602 00:37:02,796 --> 00:37:06,676 Speaker 2: portion of trying something out. So farmers want to experiment, 603 00:37:06,876 --> 00:37:10,556 Speaker 2: but just do it in a way that is risk averse. 604 00:37:11,716 --> 00:37:14,156 Speaker 2: And then the challenge with a lot of us that 605 00:37:14,196 --> 00:37:17,116 Speaker 2: don't live on a farm is we don't appreciate just 606 00:37:17,236 --> 00:37:21,436 Speaker 2: how sophisticated that farm is and how sophisticated that ability 607 00:37:21,436 --> 00:37:25,676 Speaker 2: to experiment without risk or without unnecessary risk really is. 608 00:37:26,196 --> 00:37:28,076 Speaker 2: And so how do we talk to each other in 609 00:37:28,116 --> 00:37:31,436 Speaker 2: a way that moves ideas as fast as possible, especially 610 00:37:31,476 --> 00:37:34,676 Speaker 2: when we only grow one crop a year like that 611 00:37:34,876 --> 00:37:37,916 Speaker 2: is the hardest part about this whole thing bringing innovation 612 00:37:38,036 --> 00:37:41,596 Speaker 2: into the world is there's a fundamental slow pace, a 613 00:37:42,116 --> 00:37:45,836 Speaker 2: need to be able to minimize risk to the negative, 614 00:37:46,436 --> 00:37:49,596 Speaker 2: and a real opportunity to work with some of the 615 00:37:49,636 --> 00:37:54,796 Speaker 2: most innovative forward thinking entrepreneurs and business owners that exist 616 00:37:54,796 --> 00:37:57,556 Speaker 2: in this world, if only we can figure out how 617 00:37:57,556 --> 00:38:01,796 Speaker 2: to all communicate in something that isn't common terminology and 618 00:38:01,836 --> 00:38:04,476 Speaker 2: familiar for most of us. 619 00:38:05,036 --> 00:38:06,756 Speaker 1: Thank you, it was great to talk with you. 620 00:38:07,396 --> 00:38:08,116 Speaker 2: Thank you as well. 621 00:38:12,076 --> 00:38:15,716 Speaker 1: Carsten Timmy is the co founder and chief information Officer 622 00:38:15,876 --> 00:38:20,476 Speaker 1: at Pivot Bio. Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. 623 00:38:20,756 --> 00:38:24,116 Speaker 1: It was edited by Lyddy jeene Kott and engineered by 624 00:38:24,156 --> 00:38:27,756 Speaker 1: Sarah Bruguer. You can email us at problem at Pushkin 625 00:38:27,836 --> 00:38:30,956 Speaker 1: dot fm. I'm Jacob Oldstein and we'll be back next 626 00:38:31,036 --> 00:38:43,236 Speaker 1: week with another episode of What's Your Problem.