1 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to save her prediction of iHeartRadio. I'm 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: Annie Resa. 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 2: And I'm more in vocal bum And today we have 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: an episode for you about Joyce Chen. 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and I'm really glad to have done this one. 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: I had heard her name and I knew vaguely about her, 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: but that was it. 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, me too, which, as it turns out, I 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 2: sort of deeply regret. And so it was really interesting 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 2: doing the reading and the watching for this one. 11 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, was there any particular reason she was on your mind, Lauren? 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: She's just sort of one of the personalities in American 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 2: cookery that gets talked about, and so I was like, yeah, 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: I don't know about that, lady, let's look into her. 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: Yes, and here we are, Here we are. 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: You can see our Julia Child at the for lots 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: more about the contemporary world of cooking television that Chen 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: was part of, and our General Sow's episode for a 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: bigger conversation about the growth of Chinese American restaurants from 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: the night in like around the nineteen hundreds. 21 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yes, I found a really interesting deep dive 22 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: into that and how Joyce Chen played into it as well, 23 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: And I really recommend it once we get to that section, 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: maybe I'll call it out. But it's a lot, It's 25 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: bigger than we're going to get into here. But yeah, 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: we play a pretty big role in it. Yeah, yeah, 27 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: which I guess brings us to our question. Sure. Joyce Chen, 28 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: who was she? 29 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: Well? Joyce Chen was a Chinese American cook, restaurateur, writer, educator, personality, 30 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: and businesswoman who was working in the late nineteen fifties 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: through the nineteen eighties. She had a brief cooking show 32 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: on PBS, and through that and her cookbook and restaurant 33 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: and brands, she did a lot to introduce and familiarize 34 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: different styles of Chinese and Chinese American cooking to the US. 35 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 2: Though she was successful during her lifetime and a local 36 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: celebrity around Cambridge, Massachusetts, where she was working, she didn't 37 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: achieve the lasting popularity that some of her food edutainment 38 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: colleagues did. Like she was very much ahead of her 39 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: time and also working within the constraints of her time, 40 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: and she had such a passion for food and for 41 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: the soft politics of making the fine flavors and techniques 42 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: of the fancy Chinese cuisine that she had grown up 43 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 2: with available and approachable to Americans. Just an incredibly savvy 44 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: and tenacious human personal and joyful about cooking. She's She's 45 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 2: the kind of personality who I wish had had more time, 46 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: and who I wish was spoken more about, because I 47 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 2: think she had so much to offer. For a little 48 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: bit of an idea of her voice and philosophy, I 49 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 2: suppose here's a line from the long introduction to her cookbook, 50 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: in which she wrote, you are the one to make 51 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: the dishes successful. If anything goes wrong or right, there 52 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: must be a reason. In some things, the reason for 53 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: failure is beyond our control. But in cooking, success is 54 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: always under our control. 55 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, some of my more spectacular failures come to mind, 56 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: but she was correct. That was on me. Definitely on me. 57 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: But so were the successes. Yeah yeah, Well what about 58 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: the nutrition. 59 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: Don't eat dead people as a general rule, don't eat 60 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: living people, don't eat people. 61 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: Here you go, Oh my. 62 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 2: Do appreciate different forms of cuisine? 63 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: I think the whole is going to be for Laura. Okay, 64 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: let's move on. 65 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: To a number one number. Yeah, so I said, long 66 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: introduction to that cookbook, And to specify here, she doesn't 67 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: print a recipe in her cookbook until page sixty five. 68 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: Everything before that is this introduction to everything from Chinese ingredients, 69 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: to cooking methods, to regional cuisines, to tea service to 70 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 2: just like general ideation of what makes a good in 71 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: Chinese cultures. So yeah, really fascinating. 72 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: I love that because a lot of times if you 73 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: can get some of those foundational things, just an understanding 74 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: of what ingredients will work well here and over here. 75 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: And maybe what substitutions can happen, and just why she's 76 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: going to ask you to do certain things in different recipes. Yeah. 77 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, as always, listeners, if you have fond memories of 78 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: this cookbook, if you have this cookbook, please let us 79 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: know because we're big fans. 80 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 2: Oh yes, yeah, it's called the Joyce Chin Cookbook. 81 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: So there you go, yes, which we will definitely talk about. 82 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: Oh history, Oh yeah, and we are going to get 83 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 2: into that history as soon as we get back from 84 00:05:50,720 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: a quick break for a word from our sponsors, and 85 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 2: we're back. 86 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. So. Joyce Chen was 87 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: born into a pretty well off family in Beijing, China, 88 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: on September twelfth, nineteen seventeen, and her birth name, which 89 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to attempt not to Butcher was YAOJIAI. You 90 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: can please let me know if I got it incorrectly. 91 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: Her father was a city executive and railroad administrator with 92 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: enough money to hire a chef for the family that 93 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: took care of pretty much all of their meals. Chen 94 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: discovered a passion for cooking when she was young just 95 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: through watching this chef and other people in the household cooking. 96 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, her parents hosted a lot of parties and encouraged 97 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: her to be involved in household management, including cooking. Chen 98 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: later said, whenever I entered the kitchen, my mother never 99 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,239 Speaker 2: forgot to remind me that I should learn how to cook, 100 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: so I wouldn't eat raw rice in case I couldn't 101 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: afford a family cook in the future. That said, she 102 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: definitely like had maids do the prep and the cleaning 103 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: when she cooked. 104 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's pretty solid advice now. Right by the 105 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: time Chen was eighteen, she was hosting her first professional dinner. 106 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: She was also the lead in White Snake for the 107 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: Beijing Opera, which is a line I cut out and 108 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: then put back in several times because I was like, 109 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: it's not related, but it's so cool, but it's not related. 110 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: But it's really cool. 111 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: It's pretty cool. 112 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty cool, and it does show her drive. 113 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: She was a very driven individual, which speaking of she 114 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: spent some time working as an insurance broker, which was 115 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: pretty rare for a woman in China at the time. 116 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: And then, in response to the Chinese Communist Revolution, her family, 117 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: husband Thomas, and children, Henry and Helen, moved to the 118 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: US in nineteen forty nine, settling in Cambridge, Massachusetts. 119 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: Thomas was a fine art importer, and Chen became a 120 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: housewife with kind of a lot of time on her hands, 121 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: which she often spent cooking. 122 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: Yes, and since they were near big universities like Mit 123 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: and Harvard, Chen would often run into students from China 124 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: who were feeling homesick for food from China. Whenever her kids' 125 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: school had an event that called for food, she would cook, 126 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: and her meals were really popular among the kids and 127 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: families that tried them. 128 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, by this time, in the early nineteen fifties, 129 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: the family had a third child, Stephen, and all three 130 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: kids went to this private school that was part of 131 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: what's now the Buckingham Brown and Nickels School in Cambridge. 132 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: The story goes that there was this annual fundraising event 133 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 2: for scholarships to the school called the Buckingham Circus, and 134 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: families realistically at the time, moms would make baked goods 135 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: or whatever to donate, and so chen Like dropped off 136 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 2: these pumpkin cooks and these egg. 137 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: Rolls right and in popular family lore, the egg rolls 138 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: went like hotcakes. And at first chen believed that they 139 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: had been thrown away. 140 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,119 Speaker 2: She was afraid that like the moms had been embarrassed 141 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: by them and like put them under the table or 142 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: just tossed them. But yeah, the story goes that one 143 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: of those other moms said that, you know, they had 144 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: sold out in the first hour, and so chen Like 145 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: rushed home to make another batch to bring back. 146 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: Yes. And so seeing this, Chen leaned into her passion 147 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: for cooking and opened the Joyce Chin Restaurant in nineteen 148 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: fifty eight. It had two hundred and fifty seats with 149 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: tables covered in white tablecloths, It had an event space, 150 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: and it offered takeout. She co ran it with her husband. 151 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: It was the kind of place you might go for 152 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: like a nice meal, like like a graduation dinner, and 153 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: where also the restaurant tour would come around to each 154 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: table and interact with the customers, and she really wanted 155 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: to introduce people to cuisine that might be new to them, 156 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: frequently offering Chinese and American dishes, sometimes in a buffet setting, 157 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: so people could sample things they might not otherwise order. 158 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: Her menus were in Chinese and English, and the dishes 159 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: were numbered for ease of ordering. Over time, some of 160 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: the American dishes were dropped and replaced with more traditional 161 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: Chinese dishes as those dishes became popular. By some accounts, 162 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: the line was out the door and the restaurant played 163 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: upbeat music to move things along. I heard it was 164 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: the chatcha Wow Yeah, I read like eat quicker, let's go. 165 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 2: Yeah okay. So at this time, most Chinese restaurants in 166 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: America were working class joints, serving mostly Cantonese inspired foods 167 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 2: and a lot of cheap lunches. Americanized dishes like Chop 168 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: suey and chow main had been served in military mess 169 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 2: halls during World War Two and in school cafeteria after that. 170 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: There had been a wave of more like upscale, flashy 171 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: Chinese American restaurants that got their start around the nineteen thirties, 172 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: often incorporating nightclubs, and they really thrived in places like 173 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: Hollywood in the nineteen fifties. And of course there was 174 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: that a post World War II trend of like kitchly 175 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: approachable Pan Asian tiki restaurants and cocktail lounges. There was 176 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 2: also a smaller trend of restaurants opened by like fairly 177 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: bougie Chinese immigrants who had fled Communism and who were 178 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: aiming to entertain the intellectual, well to do demographic that 179 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 2: they themselves were or perhaps had been a part of. 180 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: And Chen, it seems, set out to create something a 181 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: little bit in between this, like upscale and approachable, personable, 182 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 2: educational and incorporating dishes from several different Chinese cuisines. And 183 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: this place was a big deal. She had customers from 184 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: the President of Harvard to Henry Kissinger, to James Beard 185 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 2: to Julia Child, who remember was also based in Cambridge 186 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: by that time. 187 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: Yes, so the restaurant was successful, and it gave her 188 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: room to grow as a chef. In nineteen sixty she 189 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: started offering cooking classes, and two years later she published 190 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: a cookbook full of not just recipes but tips around cooking. 191 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: Cultural notes about the importance of tea, How to use chopsticks, 192 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: How to Cook rice. The ford was written by doctor 193 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: Paul Dudley White, who commended the recipes for being healthy 194 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: in part because she avoided additives and things like red 195 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 1: dye number two. 196 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Dudley White was a prominent cardiologist at the time 197 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: and a regular at Chen's restaurant. 198 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: The book was self published, in part due to Chin's 199 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: insistence on using color photos. It was a later commercially 200 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: published and was reprinted to the eighties. According to Atlas Obscura, 201 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: diners purchased six thousand copies before it was even published. 202 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 2: Oh wow, Oh that's great. And yeah. 203 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: A lot of her recipes, especially these earlier recipes, were 204 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: about meeting American taste halfway. The recipe for egg rolls 205 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: in the first edition of the cookbook calls for one 206 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: half pound of good hamburger. 207 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. That was to be mixed with sugar, pepper, sherry, 208 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: brown gravy, and a little bit of cornstarch to thicken. 209 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: And it wasn't only a taste or familiarity thing, but 210 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: it was also taking into account access to ingredients, what 211 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: people could get. 212 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Like the recipe description notes, this is not authentic, right. 213 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: She also helped popularize dishes like potstickers by calling them 214 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: Peking ravioli, which, like. 215 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 2: All of this might sound a little bit weird or 216 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: maybe be a little pandering or even condescending today, but 217 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 2: it's important to note that when this book came out 218 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty two, you know, right, there were Chinese 219 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: American people and restaurants in the United States, but there 220 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 2: had been one hundred years of really xenophobic, racist, and 221 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: pervasive messaging about Chinese people in America. And yeah, you 222 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: can see our episode on General So's for more on this. 223 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: But like, basically during the Depression after the Civil War, 224 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: there was this pushback against Chinese immigrants that resulted in 225 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: our first ever anti immigration act wou go US, the 226 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: Chinese Exclusion Act of eighteen eighty two, which was not 227 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: repealed until the Civil Rights Movement changed stuff in nineteen 228 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: sixty five. You know, I think Chen was just excited 229 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: about sharing this cuisine, this huge part of her home culture, 230 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: and was trying to make it right, personable and approachable 231 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: and definitely on the less pandering, more interesting side. Her 232 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: recipes included a mind for the busy modern American middle 233 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: class household. You know that that servantless household that Julia 234 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: Child talked about, where a housewife was expected to make 235 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: things like nice and novel under a limited timeframe. Chen 236 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: included a lot of insight on shortcuts and like pre 237 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: planning in order to make cooking easier in practice and 238 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: sort of effortless in appearance. 239 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: M hm. And so her second restaurant, the Joyce Chin 240 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: Small Eating Place, opened in nineteen sixty seven, and not 241 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: only that, she launched her PBS cooking show, Joyce Chen 242 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: Cook's first broadcast in Australia, Canada, the UK, and the US. 243 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: She was the first woman of color to host a 244 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: nationally syndicated cooking show in the United. 245 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: States, and she would be the only one until into 246 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. 247 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: YEP. 248 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: It was a half hour program And from what I understand, 249 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: what happened was Julia Child was a fan of Chen's restaurant. 250 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: So when the PBS local affiliate that Child was on, WGBH, 251 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: expressed an interest in expanding their cooking show repertoire, Child 252 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: recommended talking to Chen, and so her producer Ruth Lockwood 253 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: reached out. 254 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: Right. So over the course of filming, twenty six episodes, 255 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: Chin met Child. Their shows were filmed on the same set, 256 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: and they became friends. Notably, the decor was swapped out 257 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: for stereotypical Asian set pieces for Chin show. 258 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: Yeah Asian and sort of quoty, yes, sort of. Yeah. 259 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. The show was not renewed and many have speculated why, which, 260 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: by the way, WGBH has several resources about this, and 261 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: that's where I was the thing I mentioned at the 262 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: top about a really in depth dive. 263 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's where I got the thing that I 264 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 2: was just talking about about Chinese restaurants in America. So 265 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 2: there's lots more there. 266 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: Yes, So if you're interested, that's where that's where that 267 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: resource is. So many were wondering why it didn't get renewed, 268 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: and the main consensus seems to be that non Chinese 269 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: Americans weren't ready for a Chinese woman leading her own show. 270 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: Others wondered if it had to do with lack of 271 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: sponsors or conflicts of interest with her businesses. 272 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, although I would say that the lack of 273 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:40,479 Speaker 2: sponsors is probably related to that first thing. Honestly, like, 274 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: I've gotten the feeling that the producers of this show 275 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: didn't really give her what she needed to thrive, or 276 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 2: like we're expecting too little of her, or like they said, hey, 277 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: we hope that the show is going to reach a 278 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: lower income demographic. Then shows like Julia Child based on 279 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,719 Speaker 2: this perception that Chinese cooking is low class cooking and 280 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: that's not what that's not what Chen was doing, or 281 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: you know, maybe they were expecting another like really breezily 282 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 2: dynamic hit along the lines of Julia's show, but you know, 283 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: like Child was lightning in a bottle, and Chen's flavors 284 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: and recipes were even less familiar and furthermore, like her 285 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 2: native language was not English. 286 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: Yes, and she did get some criticism for her accent 287 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: being too. 288 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: Thick, like the producers would like add these illustrated cards, 289 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: like writing out words that she was having trouble pronouncing, 290 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 2: which I think is really condescending, but she was working 291 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: on it, man, like she had a voice. Coach Lockwood 292 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: would go over lines with her anyway. The show nonetheless 293 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 2: did win a Reader's Digest Educational Television Award that year, 294 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 2: and it was in reruns through nineteen seventy six. 295 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, stepping back a bit in nineteen sixty six, 296 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: she and her husband divorced and she took over primary 297 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: care of their children. 298 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, the youngest was about fourteen at the time, and 299 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: the two older siblings were about eighteen and twenty two, 300 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 2: and they started helping in earnest at the restaurant. After 301 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: Thomas was out of the picture the business in general. 302 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: She opened up two more restaurants in nineteen sixty nine 303 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: and nineteen seventy three. She expanded into other things too, 304 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: like patenting what she called the Peiking Walk, which was 305 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: a flat bottom stirfyprian with a handle in nineteen seventy. Yeah. 306 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 2: So the thing about walks is that traditionally they have 307 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: a curved bottom, which makes it impossible for them to 308 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: sit on an American stovetop. And you know, you can 309 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: fix this with a ring that you set down over 310 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: the burner. But this pan was meant to allow Americans 311 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 2: to easily adopt sturfrying techniques in their kitchens. 312 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy one, she released a line cooking utensils. 313 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty four, she started selling Chinese cooking oils 314 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: and sauces. 315 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. The cooking utensils included bamboo spatulas and also kitchen shears, 316 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 2: which were not common in American kitchens at the time. 317 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: She got a patent for the shares. I think the 318 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 2: bottled sauces were the first Chinese sauces marketed to American consumers. 319 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: She also opened a retail store, Joyce Chen Unlimited, and 320 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: started a line of frozen foods. 321 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: Yes, and the issue of access to ingredients was facilitated 322 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: by increased trade with China after President Nixon's nineteen seventy 323 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: two trip to the country, which gave Chen easier access 324 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: to some of the ingredients and items that she wanted 325 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: to use. 326 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: Or that she wanted other people to use. 327 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that she wanted other people to use. Yes. 328 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: Not only that, she successfully secured permission for her, her 329 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: son Stephen, and her daughter Helen to visit China that 330 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: same year. She got the production team show to teach 331 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: Steven some basics on filming, and Stephen got all kinds 332 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: of footage of their time there, later used in the 333 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: documentary slash travel Log. Joyce Chen's China first aired in 334 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, and it was really powerful during a 335 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: time when China had been so vilified in the US 336 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: for so long. Throughout her time in the US, which 337 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: I feel like we've been saying throughout it was really 338 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: important to her to educate people about China and combat 339 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: anti Chinese prejudice. As part of that, she was a 340 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: founding member of the Greater Boston Chinese Cultural Association. 341 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy three, Time magazine ran a profile on 342 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 2: her with the title Fortune's Cookie. M Yeah, yeah, so 343 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 2: mixed feelings about that one. But she was said to 344 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: be a millionaire at that point, so definitely a popular figure. 345 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: She did injure her hand in a kitchen accident in 346 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six, like a gallon jar dropped on it, 347 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 2: and so she began stepping away from her work around 348 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 2: that point. 349 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: Right, And then in the early eighties she was diagnosed 350 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: with multi infarked dementia and she died on August twenty third, 351 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. 352 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, these days people think it was probably Alzheimer's, but 353 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: that was a little bit more difficult to diagnose at 354 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: that time. 355 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: So she was posthumously included into the James Beard Hall 356 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: of Fame in nineteen ninety eight. That same year, the 357 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: last of her restaurants closed. 358 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, Helen. Her daughter, Helen A. Cookbook author and cooking 359 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: instructor in her own right, wound up having to sell 360 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 2: the Joyce Chen Cookwear company to a corporation in two 361 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: thousand and three due to profit difficulties. There is still 362 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: cookwear being sold in her name, but Helen doesn't really 363 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 2: have anything to say about it. According to an interview 364 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 2: that she did with Food fifty two, Henry had been 365 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: running the retail shop, but it closed after his death 366 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: in two thousand and seven. Stephen still runs a company 367 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: that sells spices, sauces, and frozen dumplings called Joyce Chen Foods. 368 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen, Joyce Chen was featured on a US 369 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: S Yeah. 370 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 2: This was part of a line of commemorative stamps called 371 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: Celebrity Chefs Forever. They featured five chefs, Julie Child, James Beard, 372 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 2: Ada Lewis, and Felipe Rojas Lombardi alongside Joyce Chen. Jen's 373 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 2: show was digitized for the first time that year. In 374 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, so eleven of the twenty six episodes are 375 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 2: now online. And I'm bad at remembering to put links 376 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: up on social, but I'll do my best with this one. 377 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: It is on that PBS station's website. Of exhibits of 378 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: important stuff from their history. The url is openvault dot, 379 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: WGBH dot org. 380 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, and a lot of sources. I was reading people, unfortunately, 381 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: But the truth of it was that's how they discovered 382 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: George Chen was his stamp. They were like, who is this? 383 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 2: Right? 384 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: Did I not know about her? 385 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's up there with these other people who I 386 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: do know. Why don't I know her? Sure? 387 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: Exactly, And so there was a lot of the show 388 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 1: coming out. I believe the documentary got some more publicity 389 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: after that. So stamps Stamp Show, and then Carrie Clicker's 390 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: picture book Dumpling Dreams How Joyce Chin Brought the Dumpling 391 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: from Beijing to Cambridge came out in twenty seventeen. 392 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think she was also inspired by those stamps 393 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: and she was like, oh, who is this? And then 394 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 2: she was like, oh, this person is really cool, and 395 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 2: so she did a yeah, a kid spock about her. 396 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: She did, and it does show the despite the sad 397 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,959 Speaker 1: fact that so many of us didn't know a lot 398 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: about her, it does show her lasting impact and especially 399 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: in and I would love if listeners write in about 400 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: this in Cambridge, like in that area in Boston, and 401 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: I even found a really fascinating article about Boston Chinese food. 402 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was just I would love 403 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: to know more. I would love to know more about that. 404 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: But she was a part of that. She was a 405 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: huge part of that. Oh well, yeah. 406 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I write like like unfortunately, like that is what 407 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: we have to say about Joyce Chen for right now. 408 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 2: But I yeah, I didn't know that these episodes existed 409 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 2: until we started doing this reading, and so I'm looking 410 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 2: forward to watching the rest of them. 411 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And I'm very happy that it seemed she's 412 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: getting more recognition. I'm sad it happened after she died, 413 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: but I'm glad she's getting more recognition. And there is 414 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: a lot for you to look into listeners if you want. Yeah, 415 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: there's a lot out there. But yes, that is what 416 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: we have to say for now. 417 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 2: We do already have some listener mail for you, though, 418 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 2: and we are going to get into that as soon 419 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 2: as we get back from one more quick break for 420 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 2: a word from our sponsors. 421 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, And 422 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: we're back with listeners giving up the flowers. 423 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, too late, unfortunately, but still that's still given Yeah. 424 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: But still okay. So this is fun because we've got 425 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: some more potato salad messages. But also we have we 426 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: got a slew about hollow holloway. 427 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: Oh, I was counting on yall, and you've pulled through. 428 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: Yes, they have pulled through. But starting with potato salad, 429 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: Sarah out, I'm writing to tell you I married into 430 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: a family that makes mashed potato salad made truly with 431 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: mashed potatoes. I grew up on German potato salad, so 432 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: had to get the recipe from my spouse's mother to 433 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: make what my spouse wanted for their birthday the first 434 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: year we were married. Imagine my surprise when it called 435 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: for potato flakes. But our kids love it as much 436 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: as he does. It's all that's made in our family now. 437 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: So yes, it exists. And I'd say it's Scottish slash Irish, 438 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: which is the heritage of his grandmother who originally made 439 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: it for her family. Oh he kid. This is so. 440 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: I am loving the wide range of potato salad experiences 441 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: and recipes getting fantastic. 442 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love I love that right. Everyone's like, yeah, 443 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 2: of course I make a potato salad. What do you 444 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: mean you make it like that. That's not what I 445 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: want at all. 446 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: What are you talking about? I love that you had 447 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: to you had to learn he's got a specific potato 448 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: salad he likes on his birthday. 449 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. 450 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: Hey. You know, if you've got it's your birthday and 451 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: you've got a type of potato salad you. 452 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: Like, it's beautiful. 453 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: It is true, is. 454 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: Joe wrote, Summer isn't summer without hallow hollow. When I 455 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: was growing up, the Filipino community in my town was 456 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: still quite small, but that didn't stop someone from having 457 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: a hand cranked ice shaving machine and pulling it out 458 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: for summer picnics and birthday parties. You could usually find 459 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: jarret hollow hollow ingredients at an Asian market even then, 460 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: and there are jars with multiple ingredients inside of them, 461 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: like all in one, just add milk and ice. I 462 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: was a pretty picky kid, and sometimes my hollow hollow 463 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 2: was just condensed milk and shaved ice with litche fla 464 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 2: and ice cream on top. In time, I added fruit 465 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 2: and jelly. I'll eat most of the suggested toppings now, 466 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: but cold sweet beans have a bit of a weird texture, 467 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 2: even though they taste great. Attached our photos from my 468 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: family summer vacation in the Philippines last year. My dad 469 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: and uncle shared a gorgeous Buco hollow hollow. As you 470 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: can see, Buco is a young coconut, so the hollow 471 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: hollow was served in the husk with a very generous 472 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: serving of Buco strings. There was jelly fruit, ube, ice cream, 473 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: corn flakes, and even shredded cheese, popular topping in Filipino desserts. 474 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 2: I opted for something simpler, corn yellow, which you also mentioned, 475 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: specifically mice corn yellow, which has sweetened corn, shaved ice, 476 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 2: corn flakes, and either corn or cheese ice cream. I 477 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: can't remember both, as you can imagine, really hit the 478 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 2: spot because it was so stinged hot, multiple showers a 479 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,719 Speaker 2: day hot. The ingredients of hollow hollow are what you 480 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: make of it, but I do think it needs shaved ice, 481 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 2: ingredients of different textures, and some sort of milk so 482 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: that it's all easy to mix. I remember that bonea 483 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 2: petit kerfuffle, and there was one even earlier when another 484 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 2: YouTube channel I think it was Taste Made, tried to 485 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: do one, but there was absolutely no milk. The Filipinos 486 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: and the cons in the comments were very upset. We 487 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 2: do have opinions trademark, oh dear, and the attached photo 488 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 2: does look really delightful and just so pretty. I man, 489 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 2: ube ice cream is so pretty, and I love things 490 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 2: served in a coconut, And oh that looks really good. 491 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: It does. And I love the shredded cheese. I wasn't 492 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: expecting it, but I think that would be really good. 493 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure, yeah. 494 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: Oh it sounds why not? Indeed, Lauren, don't put limitations 495 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: on cheese? What am I thinking? This does sound lovely? 496 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 1: Like I can imagine how refreshing this must be on 497 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: a hot, hot summer day. Yeah, and just those fruits. 498 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 2: And textures and the temperature and the melty melty ice. 499 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: H uh huh. Oh sounds lovely. It just really really does. 500 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 2: Those are just like mad about it right now. Wonderful. 501 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: I love. I love being angry in this specific way. 502 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: Yes, we really do. 503 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: So. 504 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you to both of these listeners for 505 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: writing in. If you would like to write to us, 506 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: you can Our email is Hello at savorpod dot com, 507 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: and we're. 508 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 2: Also on social media. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, 509 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: and Instagram at and we do hope to hear from you. 510 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 2: Savor is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts to 511 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 2: my heart Radio, you can visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 512 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as 513 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,959 Speaker 2: always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. 514 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 2: Thanks to you for listening, and we hope that lots 515 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: more good things are coming your way.