Speaker 1: That's how I lived. A lot of my life was
Speaker 1: trying to be perfect so I could be acceptable. And
Speaker 1: what I've found is, Wow, the more imperfect I am,
Speaker 1: the more acceptable I've actually become. Wow.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think,
Speaker 2: ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
Speaker 2: don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 2: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 2: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 2: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Speaker 2: Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
Speaker 2: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 2: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 2: how they feed their good wolf.
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 3: Las Sarmiento, a practitioner of Apastma meditation since nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 3: They are the guiding teacher of the Insight Meditation Community
Speaker 3: of Washington's BIPOC and LGBTQIA plus songas a mentor for
Speaker 3: the Mindfulness Meditation Teachers Certification Program and Cloudsanga, a contributor
Speaker 3: to the ten Percent Happier app and a graduate of
Speaker 3: Spirit Rocks Community Dharma Leader Training Program.
Speaker 4: Hi Low, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Hi Eric, nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am really happy to have you on and
Speaker 4: I look forward to this conversation. Let's start like we
Speaker 4: always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a
Speaker 4: grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life,
Speaker 4: there are two roles inside of is that are always
Speaker 4: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 4: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a
Speaker 4: bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.
Speaker 4: And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second,
Speaker 4: looks up at their grandparent and says, well, which one wins,
Speaker 4: And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 4: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 4: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 4: that you do.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Eric. Yeah, it's a very powerful parable, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because when I was reflecting on it,
Speaker 1: I wasn't really thinking of it as a good wolf
Speaker 1: or a bad wolf. For me, it was a younger
Speaker 1: wolf in an older wolf, and the younger wolf in
Speaker 1: me was one who at a very early age recognized
Speaker 1: that my gender identity, my sexual orientation, the race ethnicity
Speaker 1: of my being was not one that was acceptable in
Speaker 1: this country. My parents immigrated from the Philippines and I
Speaker 1: came over when I was ten months old, and with
Speaker 1: that recognition of those social identities, I internalized a lot
Speaker 1: of external messages that I wasn't okay, that there was
Speaker 1: something wrong with me, that you know, I wasn't worthy
Speaker 1: of existence, you know, that I could be beaten or
Speaker 1: killed for who I was. And so I really felt
Speaker 1: strongly that I needed to find a way to fit in.
Speaker 1: I needed to find a way of being acceptable. My
Speaker 1: strategy was to assimilate, you know, into dominant culture and
Speaker 1: so really forsaking a lot of who I was. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't until I actually started practicing and studying the
Speaker 1: dharma that I understood that, you know, that wasn't who
Speaker 1: I was, you know, like I was actually okay, you know,
Speaker 1: if you believe in sort of the Buddhist concept of
Speaker 1: Buddhien nature that you know, my innate goodness, wisdom, and
Speaker 1: compassion is inherent in me, as inherent in every being
Speaker 1: on the planet. And the more I was able to
Speaker 1: begin trusting and having faith and believing in that, I
Speaker 1: began to dismantle like all those old messages you know,
Speaker 1: kept telling me I wasn't enough, or I needed to
Speaker 1: prove myself constantly, or I needed to do more in
Speaker 1: order to be acceptable or feel a sense of belonging
Speaker 1: in the larger culture. And so both those wolves still
Speaker 1: live in me. And you know, it's like moments like
Speaker 1: this when I'm asked to be in an interview with
Speaker 1: a little one in me is like, no, we can't.
Speaker 1: We can't share who we are, Like they're not going
Speaker 1: to like us if we're authentically who we are. And
Speaker 1: then the older part of me is basically what I've
Speaker 1: been teaching, you know, in the way I offer the
Speaker 1: dharma in terms of self acceptance, self love, self compassion,
Speaker 1: that we all are deserving of love, respect, dignity. And
Speaker 1: you know, the more I allow externals to determine my worth,
Speaker 1: I'm going to suffer. The more that I recognize that
Speaker 1: I'm already good inside. And what anyone else thinks of me,
Speaker 1: or how society or culture thinks of me, that's really
Speaker 1: none of my business, you know, ultimately, So it really
Speaker 1: is making that distinction and beginning to just really believe
Speaker 1: that I'm okay. Everybody is okay. We just have these
Speaker 1: constructs that have been created to dominate, you know, over
Speaker 1: certain kinds of people, whether it be race, ethnessy, sexual orientation, abilities,
Speaker 1: class et cetera. So the wolf that I choose to
Speaker 1: cultivate is my older one, you know, that has this clarity,
Speaker 1: that has this willingness to just cultivate continued acceptance of
Speaker 1: myself so that I can continue to accept others for
Speaker 1: who they are. We may disagree in terms of beliefs
Speaker 1: and things, but I always remember that we're all human
Speaker 1: beings and we all deserve compassion and love and respect,
Speaker 1: even if our beliefs differ from each other.
Speaker 4: Yeap, kind of jumping way ahead in your story to
Speaker 4: that point about what you just said there, even if
Speaker 4: our beliefs are different, we can see the beauty in
Speaker 4: one another. In one of your Dharma talks, you tell
Speaker 4: a really beautiful story about a woman named Mary from
Speaker 4: Texas who's a Trumps at Dharma Talk that you went to.
Speaker 4: Can you share a little bit about that. Just something
Speaker 4: you said there sort of just brought that to mind
Speaker 4: for me, and I thought it might be a lovely
Speaker 4: story to hear.
Speaker 1: Sure, So you're referring to a day long retreat that
Speaker 1: I did at the Dharma Ranch outside of Austin, Texas.
Speaker 1: And Mary happened to be neighbors with the folks that
Speaker 1: owned the retreat center, and she was just really curious
Speaker 1: about meditation and mindfulness. She's always you know, wanting to
Speaker 1: grow and learn, and you know, she identified as a Republican,
Speaker 1: and so I didn't really know this when we were,
Speaker 1: you know, in the retreat, but she was very engaged,
Speaker 1: she was very open and had just very lovely things
Speaker 1: to say, you know, after the retreat was over, and
Speaker 1: I just really appreciated, you know, her willingness just to explore,
Speaker 1: you know, something that she thought would be beneficial. And
Speaker 1: so to me, what's going to bridge our differences is
Speaker 1: just a willingness to want to understand each other, you know,
Speaker 1: to be in relationship to one another so that we
Speaker 1: can just get what informs, you know, what we believe,
Speaker 1: and as long as we are able to do that
Speaker 1: in a way that's respectful and kind and generous. I
Speaker 1: think those bridges are possible.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you talk about how she wrote you a really
Speaker 4: lovely note afterwards, saying like thank you for sharing about
Speaker 4: why you know gender pronouns are important to you and
Speaker 4: you know, just a really beautiful sort of coming together.
Speaker 4: And what I love about that story is it shows
Speaker 4: an openness from both of you. Right, That sort of
Speaker 4: connection doesn't happen if you're not both open because you
Speaker 4: do see the world very differently. Some of the things
Speaker 4: she believes in you would find like uh uh no,
Speaker 4: way right, and vice versa. And yet you are able
Speaker 4: to have a human connection across that.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly exactly, And that's what to me is so
Speaker 1: important in terms of having discussions, whether it be around race,
Speaker 1: or sexual orientation or gender identity, is is really relationship?
Speaker 1: You know, when we're in relationship with each other, when
Speaker 1: we build trust, respect, love even with each other, then
Speaker 1: we can hang in there together, you know, and be
Speaker 1: a bit more, if not accepting, tolerant to listen to
Speaker 1: what each other's opinions and beliefs are. And when we
Speaker 1: can discuss that and share what the impact is of
Speaker 1: these beliefs and opinions. You know, we can probably get
Speaker 1: somewhere then just beating each other over the head with
Speaker 1: our signs, you know, at protests or etc.
Speaker 4: So can I ask you some questions about your gender
Speaker 4: identity and how that sort of unfolded for you?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Please?
Speaker 4: So you talk about at a very early age, like
Speaker 4: you mentioned, you recognized your race wasn't right. You recognized
Speaker 4: pretty early on that you were attracted to little girls,
Speaker 4: not little boys. When did you start to recognize that
Speaker 4: your gender didn't feel right? And there weren't really words
Speaker 4: for it in the same way then that there are now.
Speaker 4: So I'm kind of curious how did that feel inside
Speaker 4: or how did you even think about it inside, maybe
Speaker 4: before you had the words to know what it was right.
Speaker 1: So I loved dressing like I hated dresses. Every picture
Speaker 1: of me in a dress growing up, I'm crying, you know,
Speaker 1: it was really like painful. So I loved wearing pants.
Speaker 1: I loved wearing boys clothes basically just I just felt
Speaker 1: more like myself when I dressed that way than if
Speaker 1: I were in a dress. And then I played with
Speaker 1: a lot of boys toys, you know, I didn't play
Speaker 1: with dolls or dollhouses or barbies or you know, anything
Speaker 1: that would be gendered as female. I played with guns,
Speaker 1: I loved rough housing and you know, wrestling with other kids.
Speaker 1: I loved riding my bike, and you know, just a
Speaker 1: lot more that would be gendered as male in terms
Speaker 1: of play behavior. Yeah, I mean it was really clear,
Speaker 1: you know. And then when I became an adolescent and
Speaker 1: I started to enter puberty and develop, I was like, oh, no,
Speaker 1: like this just doesn't feel right to me. And even
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of my sexual desires and who
Speaker 1: was attracted to, you know, it was not as a
Speaker 1: heterosexual person. It was definitely as a queer person. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, there was just all these different things pointing
Speaker 1: in the direction of more masculine identified and I thought
Speaker 1: as a young child that, oh, I need to become
Speaker 1: a man when I grew up so that I can
Speaker 1: live my life the way I want to. There was
Speaker 1: no option of being non binary or gender conforming, you know,
Speaker 1: back in the seventies and eighties that you know, language
Speaker 1: only sort of came up in the nineties, et cetera,
Speaker 1: and so I just kind of sat with it, you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't like being identified as a lesbian because I
Speaker 1: didn't feel like I don't really feel like a woman,
Speaker 1: so you know, being attracted to women as a woman
Speaker 1: didn't fit for me. So I've always felt like I'd
Speaker 1: been on the outside of a lot of the you know,
Speaker 1: sort of whether it be a binary gay or lesbian,
Speaker 1: or male or female. You know, it was just like
Speaker 1: I was not one or the other. I was kind
Speaker 1: of a combination, you know of it all.
Speaker 4: Now, you came out to your parents at I think
Speaker 4: you said thirty eight that coming out was coming out
Speaker 4: as a lesbian, not as a transgender person.
Speaker 1: Is that correct, right, because it came out as gay
Speaker 1: to them. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, tell us about that. There's a lot of beauty
Speaker 4: and humor kind of in that story of finally coming
Speaker 4: out to your parents.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So just to back up a little bit, you know,
Speaker 1: I grew up in a very conservative household. My parents
Speaker 1: were staunch Republicans, bush loving Fox News watching folks, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was just not the atmosphere that I
Speaker 1: felt safe enough to come out to them, you know,
Speaker 1: as a gay person, more or less a transgender person.
Speaker 1: So I feel like they were the last people that
Speaker 1: I came out to, and so I decided that, you know,
Speaker 1: I would just wait and just kind of see how
Speaker 1: it went unfold. But I came out to the rest
Speaker 1: of the world when I was twenty one, and I
Speaker 1: went to this human potential workshops called the Landmark Forum.
Speaker 1: And in the forum, you know, they really challenge you
Speaker 1: to do things that are holding you back in your life,
Speaker 1: you know, And so for me, it was coming out
Speaker 1: to my parents, and so I decided, okay, I will
Speaker 1: come out to them. So I called my mom one
Speaker 1: day and I said, Mom, I want to come over.
Speaker 1: I have something really important to tell you, and she said, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, come on over. And so I came over
Speaker 1: for lunch and my parents always had the TV on,
Speaker 1: and so I said, you know, can we turn Bonanza
Speaker 1: off for a second. And they're like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: this is really serious. We're turning the TV off. And
Speaker 1: so I said, you know, I've been wanting to tell
Speaker 1: you this for a really long time, and that's that
Speaker 1: I'm gay. And I start getting really emotional. I'm crying,
Speaker 1: and my mother says, you know, there's no need for
Speaker 1: you to cry. You know, we've been waiting for you
Speaker 1: to say something for the last eighteen years, and I
Speaker 1: was just dumbfounded. I was like, oh my gosh, you know,
Speaker 1: like they gave me no clue, although if you know
Speaker 1: me and you see me, it's like it's so obvious.
Speaker 1: You know, it was my own denial of that right,
Speaker 1: and they're like, you know, you're our child and we
Speaker 1: love you no matter what you know. And so I
Speaker 1: felt sad. I grieved the fact that I lost eighteen
Speaker 1: years of relationship, a real relationship with my parents. But
Speaker 1: better late than never, and so you know, we continue.
Speaker 1: They paid for my partner in my wedding, you know,
Speaker 1: they totally supported us, they embraced my life partner, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been really sweet since then.
Speaker 4: And they came out with three pieces of advice for you,
Speaker 4: two of which I sort of understand. You know, you
Speaker 4: need to get your finances in order. Okay, self defense class,
Speaker 4: Yeah all right, but the last one, you say, your
Speaker 4: dad pipes up. He hasn't said anything all along, and
Speaker 4: he says you have to change all the appliances in
Speaker 4: your kitchen. Can you elaborate on what the thinking was
Speaker 4: there where your appliance is not appropriate for a recently
Speaker 4: come out person. Was this something that he'd been meaning
Speaker 4: to get off his chest for a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he was just trying to connect somehow
Speaker 1: and he just couldn't get anything. You know, he was
Speaker 1: already probably overwhelmed by the whole process that we were
Speaker 1: actually you know, connecting emotionally and so so, yeah, my
Speaker 1: father's a real like acts of service kind of guy
Speaker 1: in his love language, and so it's all about the practical,
Speaker 1: you know. And I lived in my apartment for a
Speaker 1: while and the clients has actually needed to get replaced,
Speaker 1: and Ashley, that's the first thing we did. The next
Speaker 1: thing I did was you know, get my finances an order.
Speaker 1: And then years years later, I took a self defense class.
Speaker 4: So the list is complete, and the list is complete. Yeah,
Speaker 4: So I want to talk a little bit about this
Speaker 4: feeling like, you you know, fitting in and not fitting
Speaker 4: in and belonging and not belonging, because I think this
Speaker 4: is a universal experience, and certainly when you don't fit
Speaker 4: into the dominant culture, it's even more of an experience.
Speaker 4: Or another way to say that would be someone like me,
Speaker 4: a straight white man, can still feel like I don't
Speaker 4: belong in lots of ways, but I don't have the
Speaker 4: cultural sense of not belonging, right, And I thought you
Speaker 4: really brought this together in a beautiful way because you
Speaker 4: talked about going to a retreat. I think it was
Speaker 4: your you know, first retreat it Spirit Rock. That was
Speaker 4: LGBTQ retreat, right, and you get there and you think,
Speaker 4: all right, I'm gonna be with my people, but you
Speaker 4: talk about how profoundly still you felt like you didn't
Speaker 4: belong Can you say a little bit more about that,
Speaker 4: because I think there's a lot of power in that story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Eric. It was you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the conditioning in me to have that sense
Speaker 1: of not belonging anywhere even translated you know, into like
Speaker 1: a community that I was actually a part of. And
Speaker 1: I noticed for the first three days on that retreat
Speaker 1: that I kept comparing myself to others, you know. And
Speaker 1: this retreat was at Spirit Rock out in California, so
Speaker 1: of course, you know, many of the queer folks there
Speaker 1: had tattoos and piercings, and you know, were just so
Speaker 1: hip and cool, and I was just like East Coast,
Speaker 1: I have no tattoos, I have no piercings, you know,
Speaker 1: pretty straight laced quote unquote in a way, and I
Speaker 1: never have felt like enough of something, and so I
Speaker 1: would just be like, you know, I'm not like these folks.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not trends enough, I'm not queer enough.
Speaker 1: I'm not even a person of color enough, you know,
Speaker 1: being Asian in this culture, et cetera. And so I
Speaker 1: suffered with that story that I had believed, you know,
Speaker 1: all my life for like three days on that retreat,
Speaker 1: and I just sat with the pain of this feeling
Speaker 1: of separation. And so I just got this insight after
Speaker 1: a sitting practice, where why am I relying on something
Speaker 1: external to me to determine my belonging? You know, why
Speaker 1: am I waiting for this outside force to say, like Law,
Speaker 1: you're acceptable, you're lovable, you belong here. And it also
Speaker 1: it wasn't like anyone was saying to me, Law, you
Speaker 1: don't belong here. It was all in my head, right,
Speaker 1: And so I decided from then on that, you know,
Speaker 1: I can just claim my belonging. You know, it reminds
Speaker 1: me of the story of the Buddha when he got
Speaker 1: enlightened and Mara was taunting him and seducing him and
Speaker 1: berating him. You know, basically, it was just his mind
Speaker 1: that he didn't deserve, you know, he's not worthy. And
Speaker 1: the Buddha put his hand on the ground and basically said,
Speaker 1: with the earth is my witness. I belong, you know,
Speaker 1: I deserve to exist, and so I just really try
Speaker 1: to carry that, you know, with my older wolf, you know,
Speaker 1: to like no matter where I am, whether it be
Speaker 1: in an you know, dominic culture environment, and I'm the
Speaker 1: only one yet again that it's like, you know, bottom line,
Speaker 1: I do belong. I may not look like or have
Speaker 1: similar experiences to people here, but I belong and we
Speaker 1: actually all belong, you know. And so just noticing my
Speaker 1: tendency to be on guard, and that's really a protective
Speaker 1: mechanism for myself, you know that I've developed for many years.
Speaker 1: And ultimately it's like I'm okay, you know, and I
Speaker 1: don't have to wait. I always talk about how like
Speaker 1: we all are like perfect cakes, and then you know,
Speaker 1: it's like anything outside of that is like extra nice
Speaker 1: buttercream is like wonderful. It just adds to the cake.
Speaker 1: It doesn't like make the cake better. It's just a
Speaker 1: nice little addition.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in that story, I was struck by you sort
Speaker 4: of saying like you know, you're alternating between judging yourself
Speaker 4: judging them. And I think it's so interesting what groups
Speaker 4: do to a lot of us, you know, when you
Speaker 4: put us into a group where we don't know people.
Speaker 4: For so many of us, that's exactly what starts to happen.
Speaker 4: And I think that's why groups can be such powerful
Speaker 4: means of transformation, is if we can watch that process
Speaker 4: from a place of a little bit higher awareness, we go, oh,
Speaker 4: look what's happening, Like I'm judging you, and then five
Speaker 4: seconds later, I'm judging myself. You suck, I suck, I
Speaker 4: mean like it. And it's just this whole dance that
Speaker 4: happens because I feel like I want to belong. We know,
Speaker 4: some of that is just what it is to be
Speaker 4: a human right. We're wired to want to belong. We're
Speaker 4: wired to suss out am I safe? Do I belong?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: But again, I think those things go so much deeper.
Speaker 4: For people who, even in every situation, feel like they
Speaker 4: don't belong, it must be so challenging. I'm gonna circle
Speaker 4: back to your original answer about the wolves because we're
Speaker 4: kind of back in the same territory and I wanted
Speaker 4: to ask this question, which is you mentioned a younger
Speaker 4: wolf an older wolf, the younger wolf being the one
Speaker 4: that felt like she doesn't belong and she doesn't fit,
Speaker 4: and the older wolf being one that's a little bit wiser.
Speaker 4: And I guess I'm curious, do you feel like if
Speaker 4: you'd had the older wolf in your life as a
Speaker 4: younger wolf? Now I'm really torturing the metaphor here that
Speaker 4: it would have helped because you do a lot of
Speaker 4: work with teenagers, you know. That's sort of when like
Speaker 4: all this underground like I'm not sure I belong, like
Speaker 4: explodes to the surface. Do you think that it can
Speaker 4: really help us to have people who are a little
Speaker 4: further down the path sharing with us, Like, Hey, of
Speaker 4: course you feel like you don't belong. That's normal, that's natural,
Speaker 4: but you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, most definitely, Eric, for sure. And I loved
Speaker 1: working with teens, you know. And it was interesting because
Speaker 1: when I first was approach to teach, you know, teens,
Speaker 1: I was asked like, oh, law, you know, have you
Speaker 1: ever experienced working with teens or anything like that, And
Speaker 1: I said, I have no experience working with teens, and
Speaker 1: I'm quite afraid of them, you know. And that's always
Speaker 1: a message for me to actually dive in, you know,
Speaker 1: and check this out. And a lot of it was
Speaker 1: that I hadn't healed my own inner team, Yeah, the
Speaker 1: one that felt like they needed to hide and couldn't
Speaker 1: be fully themselves and you know, go through the motions
Speaker 1: going to the prom when you know, it was like,
Speaker 1: this is the last thing I want to be doing
Speaker 1: right now, Yeah, et cetera. And so working with teens,
Speaker 1: you know, and one of the first things I say
Speaker 1: with teens on retreats is like, let's just put out
Speaker 1: on the table that we're all a bit awkward. You know,
Speaker 1: we all just want to be loved, accepted, appreciated for
Speaker 1: who we are, all of who we are, and what
Speaker 1: we're going to create here is the world we want
Speaker 1: to be living in, which is like you can be
Speaker 1: all of who you are and feeld loved and respected
Speaker 1: and heard. And so it really is. And so there's
Speaker 1: so many, you know, teens that I taught during those
Speaker 1: years that have come out now as gendered on conforming
Speaker 1: or non binary, and yeah, there's this possibility. And then
Speaker 1: to see someone who's actually happy, you know, that has
Speaker 1: you know, really has a good life, and that it's
Speaker 1: possible for them, and it wasn't easy, definitely growing up
Speaker 1: and to find my happiness inside myself and not rely
Speaker 1: on it coming from the outside. And at you know,
Speaker 1: such a young age, you know, from like thirteen to nineteen,
Speaker 1: like your approval or acceptance from peers is so important,
Speaker 1: you know, And so that sense of belonging is very
Speaker 1: much dependent on the external And what an older you
Speaker 1: know person can say, it's like, yeah, that's true, and
Speaker 1: it shifts and changes as you get older. Then you
Speaker 1: become less and less dependent, you know, on that, at
Speaker 1: least I did.
Speaker 4: You are an unusual dharma teacher in that you generally
Speaker 4: don't write out dharma talks and really plan and prepare.
Speaker 4: You say that, despite being a person who's hyper organized
Speaker 4: in other aspects of your life, in this area, you
Speaker 4: tend to let things happen. You often start off with
Speaker 4: a song on a ukulele. But I'm wondering if you
Speaker 4: could talk a little bit about that idea of sort
Speaker 4: of just showing up and letting what emerges emerge. Is
Speaker 4: it courage that allows you to do that or is
Speaker 4: it fear that causes you to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when I was in kindergarten, I got a
Speaker 1: needs improvement and show and tell, and I felt like
Speaker 1: that just scarred me for so much of my life,
Speaker 1: you know, of this oh, like I can't be in
Speaker 1: front of a lot of people. And it's been a real,
Speaker 1: just deep practice eric of just continuing to show up
Speaker 1: because the last thing I ever wanted to be was
Speaker 1: a teacher. Like this was not in my trajectory of
Speaker 1: a career. It just happened, you know, in a way,
Speaker 1: and been given a lot of really wonderful opportunities by
Speaker 1: dear teachers of mine. Exposure, you know, to have these
Speaker 1: ways of you know, showing up in the world, and
Speaker 1: I just kind of take it on as a challenge
Speaker 1: as a practice for me to keep being myself and
Speaker 1: showing up as myself. And so as hard as it
Speaker 1: is for me to sort of write, I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: starting to do that a little bit more. But it's risky,
Speaker 1: you know, because I can show up in a retreat
Speaker 1: or a talk and not really know where it's going
Speaker 1: to go or if it's going to make any sense
Speaker 1: or I think it also helps me just kind of
Speaker 1: trust myself more. You know, we live in a culture
Speaker 1: that like everything's got to be perfect. I always say
Speaker 1: I'm not podcast ready, you know when it comes to like,
Speaker 1: you know, giving talks and things like that. So it
Speaker 1: really is that it's okay to be imperfect, it's okay
Speaker 1: to not know, it's okay to be real and authentic,
Speaker 1: and it's really resonated for people. It helps people relax
Speaker 1: a little bit, you know, because we live in such
Speaker 1: a striving culture and a culture of perfection, and you know,
Speaker 1: we can't be acceptable unless we're perfect. Yeah, And that's
Speaker 1: how I lived. A lot of my life was trying
Speaker 1: to be perfect so I could be acceptable. And what
Speaker 1: I've found is, Wow, the more imperfect I am, the
Speaker 1: more acceptable I've actually become through you know, the spaces
Speaker 1: that I've taught.
Speaker 4: Right, It's a really interesting dance between preparation and not
Speaker 4: being prepared, you know, Like I prepare a lot for
Speaker 4: these conversations, but I do it primarily out of a
Speaker 4: deep respect for the people I'm going.
Speaker 1: To talk too.
Speaker 4: And then I try and also let go of it
Speaker 4: to some degree and allow what's going to emerge or merge.
Speaker 4: And so it's a little bit of a dance to
Speaker 4: find what's the right way to do it.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 4: Luckily, I've got Chris, my editor sitting on the back
Speaker 4: end making me sound coherent. Believe me, he's guys work
Speaker 4: cut out for him. Very often. You talk a lot
Speaker 4: about keeping your practice really simple, and you said that
Speaker 4: there are four questions as you go through life that
Speaker 4: you just sort of use to orient yourself back to
Speaker 4: the moment and being present and your practice. And I thought,
Speaker 4: maybe we could just talk through those four questions. You
Speaker 4: may not even remember them, given that you stand up
Speaker 4: and give dharma talks. Do you remember what the four are?
Speaker 1: Is your heart open or closed?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Are you feeling connected or disconnected?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Are you suffering or are you free?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And are you feeling empowered or disempowered?
Speaker 4: Yeah? So talk to me about how you use those
Speaker 4: conversations in your life and then how you use them
Speaker 4: to guide what you do in the next moment.
Speaker 1: So for me, those questions help me determine in a
Speaker 1: concrete way if I'm suffering. When I noticed that I'm suffering,
Speaker 1: so that would be when my heart is closed, I'm
Speaker 1: feeling disconnected, you know, I'm suffering and I'm feeling disempowered.
Speaker 1: It's like this self compassion just immediately arises, like I'll
Speaker 1: just say to myself, oh my gosh, buddy, you're really
Speaker 1: you know, struggling right now, you know, and to like
Speaker 1: just really pause and just allow myself to have my
Speaker 1: feels about whatever it is I'm going through, whether I'm
Speaker 1: feeling sad or angry or disappointed or shut down. And
Speaker 1: so when I'm able to allow myself and this was
Speaker 1: not something that I was allowed to do as a child,
Speaker 1: you know, to have my feelings and understand what my
Speaker 1: feelings are and to.
Speaker 3: Work with them.
Speaker 1: I don't think many of us, you know, were ever
Speaker 1: really taught that right. And so when I'm able to
Speaker 1: tend to that, then I can like get Okay, I
Speaker 1: may be feeling this way, but I can cultivate a
Speaker 1: different way of being, one that actually will have me
Speaker 1: feeling more connected, having my heart open, feeling freer, and
Speaker 1: also empowered. My tendency in the past was to bypass it,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll say like, oh, Llah, you're a dharma teacher,
Speaker 1: like you shouldn't be feeling these feelings, like you should
Speaker 1: know better, you know, kind of thing. And so these
Speaker 1: questions really bring me back home to just getting like
Speaker 1: my heart is closed, I'm feeling disconnected, I'm not empowered
Speaker 1: and I'm suffering, So let me take care of myself
Speaker 1: right now, because I don't have the capacity to do
Speaker 1: the next thing until I tend to what's right here,
Speaker 1: you know, Like I said, we live in a culture
Speaker 1: where we just kind of bypass all that and then
Speaker 1: we react to things rather than consider and respond in
Speaker 1: a more skillful way. So I don't do it. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm definitely not skillful all the time. You can get
Speaker 1: my partner to tell you that. She often questions like,
Speaker 1: are you sure you're a mindfulness teacher? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: and I love that, you know, because it's just it's
Speaker 1: just so humbling just to remember I'm also human. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll and I'll fall off the wagon and I'll get
Speaker 1: back on the wagon, you know. And I can forgive
Speaker 1: myself and I can have compassion for myself, especially when
Speaker 1: I'm struggling and I'm not necessarily getting it right.
Speaker 4: Have you found that, you know, suddenly being asked to
Speaker 4: be a mindfulness teacher and agreeing to step into that role.
Speaker 4: You mentioned that those feelings of like, well, shouldn't I
Speaker 4: know better than this? Shouldn't I be doing better than this?
Speaker 4: Talk to me about how you work with that. You know,
Speaker 4: has that been something that has emerged more for you
Speaker 4: since you've stepped into that role, or has that sort
Speaker 4: of just always been part of your personality, which is
Speaker 4: like you shouldn't feel this way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's definitely been part of my personality, you know,
Speaker 1: because you know, if you're that way, then that's going
Speaker 1: to be more stuff that people can call you on
Speaker 1: that's not going to be acceptable, right, And so I
Speaker 1: think it's helped me just become more human just kind
Speaker 1: of accepting my sea. For me, I thought being mindful
Speaker 1: was doing it right, but actually being mindful is just
Speaker 1: know what you're doing. And so for me, that distinction
Speaker 1: was really helpful. And so it was like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: aware that this is what's happening, you know, versus like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get it right. You know. It's like
Speaker 1: I'm aware I'm going to eat that third doughnut and
Speaker 1: I know what it's going to do. I'm very aware
Speaker 1: of that. You know, it may not be the most
Speaker 1: skillful thing, but I'm aware that I'm doing that versus like,
Speaker 1: you know, just going to bypassing into always doing the
Speaker 1: right thing.
Speaker 4: I'm struck by in a lot of cases. How you
Speaker 4: refer to your practice, how simple you keep it? You say,
Speaker 4: I keep my practice really simple by noticing my suffering
Speaker 4: and confronting it with kindness and compassion. You know. I
Speaker 4: approach my practice with as much courage, willingness, and humility
Speaker 4: as I can, and I seek to find the dharma
Speaker 4: in everything, because it's everywhere all the time, you know.
Speaker 4: So I love that idea that reminds me of that
Speaker 4: last line of the body sought for vows or the
Speaker 4: great vows for all They have different names, but the
Speaker 4: you know, dharma gates are count I've out awaken to them, right,
Speaker 4: They're everywhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly when I first came up, I just thought like, oh,
Speaker 1: sitting retreats all the time and just practicing every day
Speaker 1: and just being on my cushion was the practice. But
Speaker 1: there was such a disconnect from what was happening out
Speaker 1: in the world, what was actually happening with my life.
Speaker 1: And so to me, you know, it's like taking the
Speaker 1: training wheels off, you know, when we go out into
Speaker 1: the world and we engage and you know, a big
Speaker 1: question that's going around in certain dominic culture darma circles
Speaker 1: right now is like, well, what does social justice have
Speaker 1: to do with the dharma? It actually is the dharma
Speaker 1: because it's all about suffering. And so if that is
Speaker 1: making us feel uncomfortable bringing that into our meditation halls
Speaker 1: or on our cushions, then what are we actually doing
Speaker 1: on our cushions? And so it really is it's that
Speaker 1: cultivation of a heart, as my teacher Air collfix, a
Speaker 1: heart that's ready for anything, you know, And so it
Speaker 1: really is about bringing that in and recognizing and allowing
Speaker 1: ourselves to feel the depth of that's so that we
Speaker 1: can act from a place of compassion to do something
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's one of my biggest interest in biggest questions
Speaker 4: that I look at, is, you know, how do we
Speaker 4: bridge this gap from what we sort of know and
Speaker 4: maybe even what we practice formally by sitting and meditating
Speaker 4: and whatever, to all the rest of the moments of
Speaker 4: our lives, you know. And to me, it seems that
Speaker 4: the biggest problem is broadly forgetting, you know, it's forgetting
Speaker 4: that there is a dharma, or forgetting that there's another
Speaker 4: way to respond, or forgetting that there's another layer or
Speaker 4: level of our heart and we just get in motion
Speaker 4: in life and just you know, habitual reactions and and
Speaker 4: you know more and more. I think that's the biggest
Speaker 4: question and the one that you know, I am always
Speaker 4: interested in is you know, how do people remember?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: So I guess how has that evolved for you over time?
Speaker 4: How did you start to bring the Dharma into more
Speaker 4: of the moments of your life and how have you
Speaker 4: continued to do that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love what you say about like forgetting and remembering,
Speaker 1: you know, And what helps me remember is taking refuge,
Speaker 1: you know, taking refuge in the Buddha. And for me,
Speaker 1: it's not only the representation of the possibility of awakening,
Speaker 1: you know, in a lifetime, and it's also recognizing my
Speaker 1: own Buddhen nature, So recognizing my own innate goodness, my
Speaker 1: own wisdom and compassion. Everything that we seem to be
Speaker 1: wanting to buy out there that will bring us happiness
Speaker 1: is actually in here. And then taking refuge in the dharma,
Speaker 1: you know, just the teachings and practices of awareness and compassion,
Speaker 1: of wisdom and compassion to be able to see clearly,
Speaker 1: you know, what is actually happening, so that I can
Speaker 1: then discern how to engage it, because I have no
Speaker 1: control over what's happening. I do have control over how
Speaker 1: I react or respond to what's happening, how I relate
Speaker 1: to what's happening, and then to take refuge in the sanga.
Speaker 1: So even being around like minded, light hearted folks that
Speaker 1: you know will help me remember when I have, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of straight off the path that you know, we
Speaker 1: kindly and gently like bring each other back. We're here
Speaker 1: to wake each other up as well as Ramda saying
Speaker 1: walk each other home. But you know, to me, they're
Speaker 1: almost the same thing, and it's been painful. You know,
Speaker 1: I've been part of dominant culture songa's for a long
Speaker 1: time and people don't want to be really uncomfortable in
Speaker 1: waking up. You know. That's why I have my song
Speaker 1: Waking up is hard to do is because it is uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: and to me, our practice is learning to be more
Speaker 1: comfortable being uncomfortable. You know. But so much of mindfulness
Speaker 1: is being sold as oh, free yourself from stress, or
Speaker 1: be more productive and more focused at work, et cetera.
Speaker 1: But what's missing is, yeah, we have to be with
Speaker 1: like what's hard and challenging so that we can see
Speaker 1: it clearly and address it skillfully. And so that's what
Speaker 1: really like helps me remember to come.
Speaker 4: Back as we talk about identity, and we've been talking
Speaker 4: about identity here, whether it be gender identity, sexual identity,
Speaker 4: race identity. Right as we talk about these things, we
Speaker 4: have identity. And then as we move in deeper and
Speaker 4: deeper into the dharma, we start to encounter ideas that say, hey,
Speaker 4: there's no self actually here. You know, this quote unquote
Speaker 4: identity that you're so worried about either protecting or propping
Speaker 4: up doesn't actually exist. And I've heard you say that
Speaker 4: what is the importance of identity in this practice is
Speaker 4: one of the most important things that we've got to
Speaker 4: figure out if we're going to have a dharma that
Speaker 4: is truly inclusive. So can you share a little bit
Speaker 4: more about how both those things are true, how that
Speaker 4: identity is absolutely real and true and it's kind of
Speaker 4: also not and how do we work with that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Eric. You know, I think the teaching
Speaker 1: on no self is like one of the most confusing,
Speaker 1: you know, concepts in Buddhism, and especially with regards to
Speaker 1: social identities. You know. So to me, the absolute truth
Speaker 1: is that we're all one. The relative truth is that
Speaker 1: we don't treat each other that way. You know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: some folks based on their race are treated less than
Speaker 1: or their sexual orientation or gender identity or class, physical abilities,
Speaker 1: it's mental abilities, et cetera. You know, so when people
Speaker 1: say to me, you know, well, we're all one, law,
Speaker 1: why do you need to separate yourselves out as a
Speaker 1: you know, bipoc sanga or LGBTQA plus songga, And I said, well,
Speaker 1: whose one are we being?
Speaker 4: Elaborate on that? Whose one are we being?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you don't feel like it's important for
Speaker 1: folks who have felt marginalized, colonizer oppressed, you know, ancestrally historically,
Speaker 1: you know, right now in this lifetime, we can't be
Speaker 1: all one if they're feeling not safe or not seen
Speaker 1: or not respected in these dominant culture spaces. You know,
Speaker 1: that's not inclusion. You know. I have this analogy of
Speaker 1: like a dominant culture dinner party where they want to
Speaker 1: invite some new guests to the dinner and so they're like,
Speaker 1: the new guests are like, oh, we'd love to come.
Speaker 1: We'd love to bring our food and music because we
Speaker 1: like to dance after we eat, and the dominant culture
Speaker 1: host is, no, we already order the food you know,
Speaker 1: the menu is set. We just need you to sit
Speaker 1: at the table. That's not inclusion, that's assimilation. Like, we
Speaker 1: want you here, but we want you here on our terms,
Speaker 1: you know, versus we want you here and we want
Speaker 1: you to bring the richness of who you are to
Speaker 1: us so that we can be here together and learn
Speaker 1: from each other. There's a real difference. And so yes,
Speaker 1: that's the absolute truth that we're definitely aspiring towards. But
Speaker 1: it is not at all as we are seeing right now,
Speaker 1: you know, the way that we treat each other.
Speaker 4: I'm curious on a practical level how we start to
Speaker 4: bring these things together. As someone who's interested in how
Speaker 4: communities form and come together. You know, if you've got
Speaker 4: a dominant culture, so you've got a SONGA that's let's
Speaker 4: say ninety eight percent white people, and you have you know,
Speaker 4: a few people who don't quite fit that, who kind
Speaker 4: of fit in, and again are sort of asked to assimilate.
Speaker 4: You don't have diversity there, right If, on the other hand,
Speaker 4: you have a SONGA that is oriented towards LGBTQ. Right now,
Speaker 4: you've got two songas right, you got one over here,
Speaker 4: one over here, And I'm kind of curious. Is it
Speaker 4: even important that we move towards a songa in which
Speaker 4: it's everyone seen for who they are and valued for
Speaker 4: who they are. How have you seen that actually work
Speaker 4: well in real life or have you.
Speaker 1: It's slow, it's really slow, especially I think, you know,
Speaker 1: with say the Bipop sana, you know, in my community,
Speaker 1: it's like it's very few people that are part of
Speaker 1: that soga join the larger dominant culture song. And a
Speaker 1: lot of it is like people don't feel safe, they
Speaker 1: don't feel held. You know, things will be said and
Speaker 1: you know, often called microaggressions, et cetera, where it's like
Speaker 1: I don't even call them microaggressions anymore because they're still harmful,
Speaker 1: you know, and make microaggressions mak Oh. It's so tiny
Speaker 1: it shouldn't really matter, but it does. It has huge impact.
Speaker 1: And so I do believe it's important for everybody to
Speaker 1: come together, but I don't think that we're necessarily there yet.
Speaker 1: I think that the dominant culture has a lot of
Speaker 1: work to do on themselves, around their understanding of themselves,
Speaker 1: you know, especially as white people, you know, white supremacist,
Speaker 1: you know, white privileged culture. And then to then you know,
Speaker 1: understanding yourself and then understanding the impact of you know,
Speaker 1: the systems and the institutions that perpetuate you know, this harm,
Speaker 1: this marginalization, this oppression of people that aren't white or
Speaker 1: of a dominant culture identity. So you know, I have
Speaker 1: this phrase that I've coined that racial is glacial like.
Speaker 1: It takes a really long time. It takes a really
Speaker 1: long time, even in spiritual communities where you would think, oh, well,
Speaker 1: everyone's got good intention, big hearts, et cetera. But we're
Speaker 1: still human beings who are deeply conditioned by the culture.
Speaker 1: And again going back to you know, being called out
Speaker 1: on things that feels uncomfortable, and if people aren't willing
Speaker 1: to be humble and willing to be uncomfortable and being
Speaker 1: called in or called out whatever you want to use,
Speaker 1: whatever term you want to use, makes it really hard.
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't make it safe for folks like
Speaker 1: myself to want to engage. So there's a lot of
Speaker 1: work to be done.
Speaker 4: Is it appropriate for people who are in the dominant
Speaker 4: culture to want to be involved in and attend, say
Speaker 4: a bipoc sanga or is that not the right approach,
Speaker 4: not the right place, not a place that I would belong.
Speaker 4: I mean, because what I'm trying to find is we
Speaker 4: certainly know that exposure to each other increases understanding, increases knowledge,
Speaker 4: increases tolerance. So this is just somebody who recognizes that
Speaker 4: I am part of the dominant culture in all the
Speaker 4: ways right, white male cisgendered, and still trying to say,
Speaker 4: all right, where do I and how do I advocate
Speaker 4: for fairer and more equitable places where I exist?
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely have got and a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: questions from dominic culture folks saying, oh, you know, can
Speaker 1: I just join your BIPOC sanga, you know, because I
Speaker 1: want to learn, you know, like how to engage in
Speaker 1: how to be And it's and it's not appropriate because
Speaker 1: that space is a refuge and a safe space for
Speaker 1: BIPOC folks to be able to like not have to
Speaker 1: worry about you know, you know, like you know, if
Speaker 1: there's a white person in the room, like we do this,
Speaker 1: like a lot of people do it, Like I have
Speaker 1: to deal with those folks in my job like all
Speaker 1: the time. And you know, here's a really like safe
Speaker 1: space that actually inspires, rejuvenates resources people so that we
Speaker 1: can go out into the world and so to be
Speaker 1: a good ally would be to be one to you know,
Speaker 1: do your own work, work with your own people. Because
Speaker 1: we started doing these week long retreats, we would have
Speaker 1: you know, the sits in the big hall, and then
Speaker 1: we would have once a day an affinitied sit for
Speaker 1: LGBTQI plus folks, and every other day for the BIPOC folks.
Speaker 1: And people were like, well, why do they have to
Speaker 1: like separate themselves out. Well, the thing about it is
Speaker 1: is the white folks don't realize when they're in the
Speaker 1: big meditation hall they're one big affinity group and all
Speaker 1: we're doing in the other room is just being together.
Speaker 1: Like you're being together in that room. We're not talking
Speaker 1: about revolution. You know, we're overthrown, you're not.
Speaker 4: We're out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're just sitting just like you. But there's something
Speaker 1: about you know, sitting together that just allows us to
Speaker 1: go deeper because we're not necessarily being activated by you know,
Speaker 1: this conditioning that we have, you know, when we're we're
Speaker 1: in a mixed group. So it is like a little
Speaker 1: bit of a refuge to kind of resource ourselves so
Speaker 1: that we can come and engage, you know, in the
Speaker 1: bigger group. Yeah, so it really is. And I think
Speaker 1: sometimes some dominant culture folks kind of want to just
Speaker 1: kind of bypass the like why can't we just all
Speaker 1: just be one together, like just all just kind of mix,
Speaker 1: and it can get pretty messy, you know, if there's
Speaker 1: not a lot of consciousness, if there's not a lot
Speaker 1: of like willingness just to deeply listen or know, you know,
Speaker 1: if you're someone who is entitled to take up a
Speaker 1: lot of space or has always been able to take
Speaker 1: up a lot of space, you know, to make space
Speaker 1: for others, you know, and have their voices included. So
Speaker 1: there's a lot of practices that need to be in
Speaker 1: place in order to feel that sense of equity, that
Speaker 1: sense of belonging, that sense of true you know, welcome
Speaker 1: and inclusion.
Speaker 4: Yep, yep. I like, I guess I should say I
Speaker 4: don't like it because I wish it wasn't that way.
Speaker 4: But racial as glacial speaks to something that I feel deeply,
Speaker 4: which is just this like an impatience with like let's
Speaker 4: get things better, you know, and yet sometimes staring at
Speaker 4: the problem and being like, wow, this feels colossal, colossal glacial.
Speaker 1: It's so buried in our systems in our institutions. You know,
Speaker 1: laws are made to oppress people. You talk about gerrymandering
Speaker 1: and all those. I mean, there are things that are
Speaker 1: actively laws being passed to like oppress people, you know,
Speaker 1: and people don't get that. You know, maybe they do
Speaker 1: or maybe they don't, but that's what's happening. Yep. That's
Speaker 1: the result of those actions. Not sure exactly what it's
Speaker 1: going to take, but it's going to take a long
Speaker 1: time whatever it is.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I think it feels challenging, particularly when you know,
Speaker 4: you do have what I think is a reasonable amount
Speaker 4: of the dominant culture that at least is open to
Speaker 4: things changing. But then you know, it appears that a
Speaker 4: significant portion is, like you said, like germandering everything but
Speaker 4: rolling back voting rights, and it just feels sort of like,
Speaker 4: oh boy.
Speaker 1: It's deep. It's what this country was founded on.
Speaker 3: Yep, it was racism.
Speaker 4: I don't want to go too deep down that rabbit
Speaker 4: hole because we could be here forever. I want to
Speaker 4: actually pivot a little bit. Not that I'm disagreeing with
Speaker 4: what you said there, because I was actually about to
Speaker 4: ask a question about whether are most countries not that way?
Speaker 4: But I want to change direction just a little bit,
Speaker 4: which is something that you said which is related, and
Speaker 4: I want to understand it a little bit more. You
Speaker 4: said being open to however life is unfolding, and being
Speaker 4: willing to have my heart broken open over and over
Speaker 4: again in order to break my own habitual condition, and
Speaker 4: is my practice. This approach for me is energizing and
Speaker 4: not draining. And believe me, I've been drained. I'm tying
Speaker 4: this to where we just were, which is when we
Speaker 4: look at some of these things, what we can feel
Speaker 4: is very drained. And I'm curious, as you said, like
Speaker 4: I find this approach energizing. Talk to me about how
Speaker 4: what I just read of yours applies to what you
Speaker 4: and I were just talking about a couple of minutes ago,
Speaker 4: and does it or am I taking it out of context?
Speaker 1: Yeah? It is energizing when I'm resourced, uh huh. You know,
Speaker 1: in the past month, I've had some really really painful,
Speaker 1: draining conversations with fellow teachers in my own community and
Speaker 1: just really getting like, oh, wow, we maybe have moved
Speaker 1: a centimeter or so in sixteen years. And you know,
Speaker 1: I even Joe to that. You know, I'm so surprised
Speaker 1: that I don't have a concussion from banging my head
Speaker 1: against the wall trying to explain and the stuff to
Speaker 1: people over these years. But when I find I'm with
Speaker 1: folks that really want to understand and really want to
Speaker 1: grow and have the humility to really deeply listen and
Speaker 1: take responsibility for their own ignorance or their own lack
Speaker 1: of consciousness, then I'm happy to engage, like I'm more
Speaker 1: than willing, you know. But when there is pushback or defensiveness,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot of emotional labor for someone
Speaker 1: like your to engage in those kinds of conversations. And
Speaker 1: so I've been much better at saying, like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I just can't do it. You know, I'll call on
Speaker 1: an ally to speak up, or I'll give you some
Speaker 1: links and then you can do some research to you know,
Speaker 1: educate yourself. But I really need to conserve my own energy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because this is just my life. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: just constant, you know, for me. And it's not just
Speaker 1: this thing I'm going to dabble in just because you know,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling guilty or I feel like any do something
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, this is just my existence.
Speaker 4: I wrestle with that having you on and asking you
Speaker 4: these questions. I'm trying to do it from a place
Speaker 4: of hopefully growth and healing and helping others. And I
Speaker 4: recognize like I'm putting you into a particular role that
Speaker 4: sometimes I feel uncomfortable with.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I think for me, you know, it's
Speaker 1: part of my own practice, you know, doing this work
Speaker 1: Deia work for your audience, diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility work
Speaker 1: for the last sixteen years is it's really deepened my
Speaker 1: practice around patience, tolerance, acceptance, compassion. You know, like it's
Speaker 1: really pushed me, you know in ways that I never imagine.
Speaker 1: It's opened my heart in ways that I never imagine.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing is, like I don't want
Speaker 1: any of this stuff to shut my heart down. Like
Speaker 1: my aspiration is to keep my heart open as possible.
Speaker 1: It's on a dimmer switch, you know, it's kind of
Speaker 1: like I'm going to talk to this person and it's
Speaker 1: going to be down to like twenty percent open versus like,
Speaker 1: oh I'm hanging out with my puffs, it'll be ninety
Speaker 1: percent open.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So but you know, it's it's work that's necessary. It's
Speaker 1: super important, you know, like all of our lives depend
Speaker 1: on it. And a friend of mine that I just
Speaker 1: made was on a panel this past week and she said,
Speaker 1: you know, racism will not stop until white people end it,
Speaker 1: and so it really is not necessarily our job. But
Speaker 1: I feel like because I have the capacity, I think
Speaker 1: that was the blessing and maybe hindrance of being assimilated
Speaker 1: growing up. You know, it's like I can hang in
Speaker 1: these spaces, in dominant culture spaces with a little bit
Speaker 1: more ease than some of my you know, maybe bipoc friends.
Speaker 1: And so if I can you know, be a bridge,
Speaker 1: or if a few white folks wake up a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, just being in my presence and in conversation,
Speaker 1: then I'm happy. You know, it's something that I can give.
Speaker 4: I love that analogy of heart open versus closed on
Speaker 4: a dimmer switch. I love that idea. And I also
Speaker 4: loved where you talked about that the non binary nature
Speaker 4: of gender gives you that ability to float in between things,
Speaker 4: you know, kind of makes you a middle way expert.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 4: I may have put slight words in your mouth there,
Speaker 4: but I think that's close to what you were saying.
Speaker 4: And I think that dimmer switch is a beautiful example
Speaker 4: of that. You know, like, is my heart open or closed?
Speaker 4: Is pretty binary? Noticing that it's seventy five percent open.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's pretty good.
Speaker 4: You know, that's all right. But where I wanted to
Speaker 4: end was talking about Casey, your dog, because I think
Speaker 4: you and I have had a very similar experience, which
Speaker 4: is that you talk about Casey, which is a dog
Speaker 4: you only had for four months who really opened your heart.
Speaker 4: And I came to dogs later in life, did not
Speaker 4: like them most of my life. I don't know if
Speaker 4: that would be where you were. I was a vehement
Speaker 4: anti dog person and had a dog that opened my heart,
Speaker 4: but share a little bit about and what ways that
Speaker 4: animal was able to open your heart in ways that
Speaker 4: humans worked.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that, Eric. Yeah, I'm the same as you.
Speaker 1: I used to think that people had pets because they
Speaker 1: didn't want to deal with other people. That might be true,
Speaker 1: it probably is. And so you know, we adopted Casey
Speaker 1: from my parents when my mom got diagnosed with a
Speaker 1: terminal brain tumor, and you know, it was just like
Speaker 1: just little being. Casey was a Norwich Terrier, which is
Speaker 1: like a really small, compact, little spunky, little dog, and
Speaker 1: she was about twelve when we adopted her, and she
Speaker 1: just was my companion, you know, during my mom's last
Speaker 1: year of life. And you know, she was just always there,
Speaker 1: just lay beside me when I would cry, and there
Speaker 1: was just something about like this silent little being, you know,
Speaker 1: just the presence of that that unconditional love. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes human love can be so conditional, but with a
Speaker 1: with the animal, it was my first taste of that
Speaker 1: kind of unconditional love. And so we've had three more
Speaker 1: dogs since then, and it's pure joy. Definitely a practice
Speaker 1: of patients and acceptance and messiness, which I don't tolerate
Speaker 1: very well. So it's also a good practice in confronting
Speaker 1: my need for order in my life. But yeah, Casey
Speaker 1: was truly a real gift of totally unexpected and that's
Speaker 1: so much of like how I just I just trust life,
Speaker 1: you know, like life will bring me what I need,
Speaker 1: the people, the animals, the experiences, and I just flow
Speaker 1: with it, you know, as best I can.
Speaker 4: Yeah, mine was Sadie the one who opened my heart.
Speaker 4: And I know that Tara Brock is a teacher you've
Speaker 4: worked closely with. Was a spitting image, like literally twins
Speaker 4: of her when Tara and I talked on the interview,
Speaker 4: we shared photos, We're like, oh my god, like it's
Speaker 4: just uncanny, but yeah, Sadie's the one who opened my heart,
Speaker 4: and I often feel like it just feels like the
Speaker 4: biggest gift that like, somewhere near midlife, I discovered this
Speaker 4: whole species of creatures that I had no appreciation for
Speaker 4: that I'm now like as one of the greatest joys
Speaker 4: of my life. I just feel so so fortunate in
Speaker 4: that regard. It's been such a lovely thing. Well, law
Speaker 4: thank you so much for taking the time to come
Speaker 4: on the show. It has been a real pleasure to
Speaker 4: have you on, and really grateful that we got to
Speaker 4: spend this time together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Eric, thank you for having me. It's
Speaker 1: been fun.
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