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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It's just like in the movies,

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Speaker 1: except it's real. Have you ever seen a movie where

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Speaker 1: the cleaning lady or a friend goes into a home

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Speaker 1: or an apartment or the office, minding their own business

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Speaker 1: and suddenly they find a dead body. That's what happens here.

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Speaker 1: And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Crime stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. This is how it all starts. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at w e VV forty.

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Speaker 1: A woman was stopping by a house on Stinson Avenue

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Speaker 1: on the city's west side to visit her friend last night.

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Speaker 1: Police say when she went inside, it was like a

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Speaker 1: true horror scene with a man dead on the floor,

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Speaker 1: another woman tied up. She then flagged down an Indiana

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Speaker 1: State trooper who called the Evansville Police Department to the scene. Wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: So you go over to your friend's place. The friend says,

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Speaker 1: can you help me clean up? And they clean one room.

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Speaker 1: Then they go to the next room and lo and

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Speaker 1: behold there's one dead body with another body gagged and

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Speaker 1: tied up, dead or alive, don't know. She runs for

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Speaker 1: it and do you blame her again? I Mancy Grace

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories, and thanks for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Also with us an all star panel to make sense

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Speaker 1: of what we're hearing. Matthew Mangino, high profile lawyer joining us.

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Speaker 1: Former Prosecutor Lawrence County, author of The Executioners Told on Amazon.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Jory Cross and psychologist faculty Saint Leo Universe, consultant

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Speaker 1: with the Blue Wall Institute and author with me. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the State of Florida

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Speaker 1: at Pathcare dot med, Senior lecturer at University of Florida

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Speaker 1: Medical School Forensic Medicine, and the founder of the International

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Speaker 1: Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Founder director of the Coldcase

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Speaker 1: Research Institute, Cheryl McCollum joining us. You can founder at

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Speaker 1: coldcasecrimes dot org. But first we're going out to Valerie

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Speaker 1: Lions special guests joining US. Reporter with forty four News

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Speaker 1: there in Evansville. Let me start at the beginning. Valerie,

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Speaker 1: tell me about Evansville. A lot of people haven't heard

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Speaker 1: of it. What's it, Lie, Yeah, that's exactly right, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm originally from Florida and I had to

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Speaker 1: look up Evansville on a map before I accepted the

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Speaker 1: job and moved down. So you're exactly right. And when

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Speaker 1: I moved out there and I started the job, everyone

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Speaker 1: told me. You know, Evansville, it's not necessarily a sleepy town,

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Speaker 1: but it's not. But it's definitely not a town where

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Speaker 1: you hear about, you know, high profile crimes. But you know,

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Speaker 1: as time has gone on, we've definitely seen an optic

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Speaker 1: in certain crimes, but nothing like this. As you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: this is something you see in the movie. So this

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Speaker 1: definitely took all of us off guard. Well, you know

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Speaker 1: what's interesting about Evansville. It's right there on the Ohio

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Speaker 1: River in Indiana, and it's got a very very low

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Speaker 1: population for its geography. There's only about one hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighteen thousand people there in the last census. Now that's

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Speaker 1: pretty unusual. In fact, it's big thing. It's some earthen mounds,

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Speaker 1: like Indian mounds. It's not like New York and you

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Speaker 1: go to the Empire State Building and Rockefeller Center. It's

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Speaker 1: more like my hometown where the big thing was the

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Speaker 1: old Monkey Indian Mounds. I'm not knocking that. I'm glad

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Speaker 1: I grew up there. But what you don't expects for

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Speaker 1: this to unfold on a tree lined street. That's what

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Speaker 1: you don't expect in Evansville, Indiana. I think we've all

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Speaker 1: gotten the picture. I mean to you, Cheryl McCollum, you're

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Speaker 1: the forensic expert. The reality is, when you are looking

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Speaker 1: for a killer and you're in a big city, that's

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Speaker 1: like looking for a needle in a haystack. It could

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Speaker 1: be anybody. But when you're in a smaller town population

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Speaker 1: one hundred and eighteen thousand for the whole kitten caboodle,

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Speaker 1: then you start looking at who would be in this house,

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Speaker 1: who would be walking by this house, who would even

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Speaker 1: see this house? What if it's on a rural mail

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Speaker 1: route I mean way out and the sticks as it's

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Speaker 1: been called, so you don't get your typical foot traffic,

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Speaker 1: it's not near an interstate. So who in the world

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Speaker 1: would commit a crime like this? That's what you think

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Speaker 1: about when you're in a rural area, No question, you're

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Speaker 1: going to look at that social circle first, who are

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Speaker 1: the people that come to this house regularly? Who might

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Speaker 1: you have had an issue with or some type of problem.

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Speaker 1: And then you're going to go outside that social circle.

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Speaker 1: As you know, the investigation takes you there. But certainly

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Speaker 1: in a small town, they're generally looking at that closed

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Speaker 1: group of a quinness. It's like Andy if Mayberry, you

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Speaker 1: just don't walk in and find aunt be tied up,

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Speaker 1: hog tight and dead. Okay, that just doesn't happen in

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Speaker 1: a small town statistically, But guess what it did this time,

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Speaker 1: you know, Matthew me and Gino, high profile lawyer joining

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Speaker 1: US now civil attorney, former prosecutor. It does sound like

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Speaker 1: it's out of a movie where you've got a friend over,

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Speaker 1: she's helping clean up, and she comes upon, whoops, a

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Speaker 1: dead body. Now you know, you would expect to find

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Speaker 1: I don't know, somebody leaves their drinks out, their alcohol

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Speaker 1: or they're I don't know, just their R rated movies.

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Speaker 1: Still like you find something, but it's usually not a

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Speaker 1: dead body. Matthew, No, And um, you know what's strange

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Speaker 1: here is she's invited over to the house to help

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Speaker 1: clean Well, there's a dead body laying in the house.

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Speaker 1: Uh you know that's uh, you know, strange without a doubt.

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Speaker 1: And so certainly in a small town, you know, people

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Speaker 1: know each other, neighbors or friendly with one another. You know,

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Speaker 1: if I'm if I'm investigating this case, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: begin to talk with the neighbors to try to find

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Speaker 1: out the history of this residence and who lived there

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, what kind of people they were

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Speaker 1: and what kind of trashy came in and out of

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Speaker 1: that house. I would immediately start with canvassing the neighborhood

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Speaker 1: to try to find out as much information as I

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Speaker 1: could about about that house. Who are you're right now?

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Speaker 1: This woman manages to get out of the house, She

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Speaker 1: makes a run for it, very very wide, silly, and

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Speaker 1: she happens torn into a trooper. Now that is quite fortuitous,

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Speaker 1: and let me tell you what happens. Then listen to this.

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Speaker 1: Get another one out, Yeah, we're gonna run out of

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Speaker 1: We're definitely imagine guys, we're gonna bring the next one

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Speaker 1: across the street to the northward. You've got a Heidi

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Speaker 1: Carter and a hairy hand. So right there, you you

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Speaker 1: hear the police immediately converge on the scene. This woman

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Speaker 1: who is cleaning the house runs out practically into the

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Speaker 1: arms of a trooper going by, and they call for backup,

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Speaker 1: and of course cops come. They surround the place and

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Speaker 1: start demanding everybody come out with your hands up. All

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Speaker 1: they know right now is this one in shot claims

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Speaker 1: there's a dead body inside and another person, a woman

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Speaker 1: hog tie tied up near the dead body. So all

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Speaker 1: of the guns drawn. They demand anybody that can come

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Speaker 1: out better get out with their hands up. So, Cheryl McCallum,

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Speaker 1: we hear them say we've got a Heidi Carter and

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Speaker 1: a Carry Hammond inside. How do they know that? I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure how they know that unless they made some

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Speaker 1: type of call to the home or got information from

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Speaker 1: the woman that was inside. Because the friends that was

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Speaker 1: helping cleaning, she knows tidy, so she probably gave them

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Speaker 1: that information to say Heidi's in there with the boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: Or how about this. You are familiar with the interior

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Speaker 1: of a cruiser, correct, Cheryl? Yes, okay, you know that

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Speaker 1: little computer thingy right at the officer's right hand as

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Speaker 1: he she is driving, where they look up license tags,

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Speaker 1: they look up d obs and people. They can look

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Speaker 1: up the word dresses too little name for my understanding. Well,

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Speaker 1: my understanding is that wasn't Heidi's home. I know it

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Speaker 1: wasn't He's home. They're the third man that I understand

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Speaker 1: might have owned the home. But I'm thinking they were

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Speaker 1: going by the witness. That's what I think. So you

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Speaker 1: hear them yelling, We've got a Heidi Carter and a

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Speaker 1: carry Hammond inside. Now listen to what comes next, coming

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Speaker 1: out Henry's call my name Harry out yea hey, Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. You veil coming out Harry name

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Speaker 1: Harry Hey. What you're hearing is by to cam footage.

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Speaker 1: You're hearing exactly what's happening at the time, and what

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Speaker 1: you hear at the end is gunfire. Okay, that's never good.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut seven. This is a

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Speaker 1: Marissa Patois w EVV forty four. Several neighbors who had

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Speaker 1: just gone to sleep but were awoken by the gunshots.

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Speaker 1: While this man did not hear the gunfire, his thirteen

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Speaker 1: year old son did her some shots, but he didn't

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Speaker 1: know it was coming from. He went to sleep, hoping

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Speaker 1: it was just allowed to train passing buying on the tracks.

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Speaker 1: I get like three when I came outside. I thought

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Speaker 1: my niece the neighbor was having a parted though, because

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Speaker 1: I've seen all the cars until I've seen the yellow tape.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, well, something that happen and I've

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Speaker 1: seen the police cars and all detictive and stuff. Another

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Speaker 1: terrifying twist to this case that two children were inside

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Speaker 1: the home at the time of the shooting. Children inside

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Speaker 1: the home, the same home where the friends sees a

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Speaker 1: dead body and another body hog tiede. So the neighbors

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Speaker 1: are now waking up to your gunfire, that gunfire apparently

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Speaker 1: coming from the cops. Take a listen to now to

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Speaker 1: our cut one. This is Sergeant Anna Grid. Around eleven pm,

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Speaker 1: Avansa Police officers were dispatched to the area of Stenson

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Speaker 1: Avenue and James Avenue to assist Indiana State Police for

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Speaker 1: a possible kidnapping and murder. The reporter was still unseen

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Speaker 1: and told officers that she went to the residence to

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Speaker 1: visit with Heidi Carter. While she was inside the residence,

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Speaker 1: she saw dead body and rein out of the home

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Speaker 1: to get help. Officers located thirty six year old Heidi

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Speaker 1: Carter outside of the home near a vehicle. She told

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Speaker 1: officers that there were several people still inside the home.

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Speaker 1: Officers also located a gun on Carter. Officers surrounded the

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Speaker 1: home and called out other residents with a loud verbal command,

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Speaker 1: also using a loud speaker. A male resident walked out

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Speaker 1: of the home, complied with officers, and told officers that

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Speaker 1: there were other individuals still inside, including his two teenage children.

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Speaker 1: To doctor Jerry Crosen, joining US psychologist faculty Saint Leo University,

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Speaker 1: research consultant with the Blue Wall and author of Operation

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Speaker 1: Sas Recommendations to help stop officers suicide, Doctor Jerry Crawsen,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Did you notice on

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Speaker 1: the sound that I play for the bodycam footage, you

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Speaker 1: hear the officers saying it over and over and over.

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Speaker 1: Come out with your hands up, Come out with your

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Speaker 1: hands up, the houses surrounded, come out with your hands up.

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Speaker 1: Why do they say it so many times? Doctor Tory?

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Speaker 1: You want to keep that command simple and straightforward and

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Speaker 1: repeat it so there's no confusion in the mind of

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Speaker 1: the person hearing it. You know, don't give conflicting statements.

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Speaker 1: You've got to give that solid command to come out,

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Speaker 1: and for their safety, I want to see your hands.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, when you're at this point, there's a

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Speaker 1: pretty good indication Cheryl McCall and the cops are going

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Speaker 1: to go in guns a blazing, and they're trying to

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Speaker 1: give everybody in there the chance to get out alive. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and again that's what you see here. They've got life,

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Speaker 1: you know. Toward the house, they're given these clear commands.

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Speaker 1: They've got the place surrounded. I mean, there's nowhere for

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Speaker 1: these folks to go but to come out the straight

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Speaker 1: door and comply with what they're being asked to do.

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Speaker 1: And now, to top it all off, they find out

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Speaker 1: that there are children in sight, their children in sight,

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Speaker 1: So the last thing they want to do is en fire.

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Speaker 1: But yet they know that there is a dead body

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Speaker 1: inside according to this witness, and that, according to this witness,

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Speaker 1: there's another body tied up. So let me ask you this.

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Speaker 1: Valerie Lions joining us reporter with forty four News in Evansville. Again,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, Valerie. Valerie Heide Carter

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Speaker 1: comes out. What was her connection to the housekeeper, Cynthia? Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was her friend she called over. She actually told

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Speaker 1: her she was getting ready for a landlord infection and

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Speaker 1: she needed help cleaning that house. And so the friend

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Speaker 1: came over and actually, according to the affiday that she

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Speaker 1: did notice blood on heidi shoes, but clearly didn't say

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Speaker 1: anything until she cleaned a few of those rooms with

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Speaker 1: her and unsuspectingly sat down on what she thought was

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Speaker 1: a pile of pillows and blankets, which was actually that

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Speaker 1: dead body. Okay, you know, Valerie Lions, You've got me

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Speaker 1: drinking out of fire hydrant here. That's just too much,

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Speaker 1: too fast. I didn't really know where to start. Okay,

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Speaker 1: first of all, let me dissect everything you just said

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Speaker 1: with me. Valerie lines with forty four News in Evansville.

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Speaker 1: Valerie so Heide Carter invites Cynthia, her friend, over, and

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Speaker 1: she says, I've got a landlord inspection coming up. I

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Speaker 1: gotta get this place clean pronto. Can you help me?

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Speaker 1: So Cynthia comes over, They clean one room, then she's

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Speaker 1: cleaning another room. Then she sits down on pillows and

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Speaker 1: actually sits on a dead body. I didn't know that part.

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Speaker 1: She sat on a dead body? Do I have that right? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. And in the affidavit it was actually blocked

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Speaker 1: out by authorities, So even that stuck out to them

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Speaker 1: as much as it definitely stuck out to us in

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Speaker 1: the news room when we uncover that information. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean block to out? You mean circled or what

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Speaker 1: it wasn't so instead of bolded or I talicized. It

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Speaker 1: was just blocked out in the long list of information,

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Speaker 1: and they they seem to highlight that. And you know

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Speaker 1: the part where she is where she told authorities that she, uh,

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Speaker 1: she sat down on the dead body. Doctor Tim Gallagher

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Speaker 1: joining me, the medical examiner for the entire state of

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Speaker 1: Florida at pathcaremad dot com. All right, doctor Gallagher, I've

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Speaker 1: never asked you this. Have you ever sat on a

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Speaker 1: dead body? I have seen a lot of dead bodies,

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Speaker 1: but sat on her. I've never sat on one. I've

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Speaker 1: seen a lot of them, but I've never sat on one, though,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to sit on one. I've never also,

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Speaker 1: and all the dead bodies I've ever seen, I've never

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Speaker 1: sat on one. Is it anybody on the panel? Have

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Speaker 1: you sat on a dead body? Dopepe even you, Sharyl,

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Speaker 1: Of all people, I would think Cheryl McCollum might have

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Speaker 1: sat on one. Not even close. Eee, Kara, Jackie, nobody. Okay,

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Speaker 1: can you imagine for the rest of your life, doctor

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Speaker 1: Jerry Cross, and we need a shrink, You're gonna remember

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Speaker 1: the moment you sat on a dead person. And this

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Speaker 1: was a pretty gruesome dead body according to the half

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Speaker 1: of David. Oh yeah, it wasn't just dead, it was

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Speaker 1: dead many times. Over is the only way I can

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Speaker 1: put that. And I came up with that phraseology during

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Speaker 1: the Jodi Arius case. Cheryl McCallum. She murdered her sweetheart,

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Speaker 1: her lover, Travis Alexander, who's trying to break up with her,

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Speaker 1: by shooting him twenty nine, stabbing him twenty nine times,

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Speaker 1: and then shooting him in the head. So she killed

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Speaker 1: him thirty times over. So this body, Cheryl, We've seen

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Speaker 1: a lot of murders together, Cheryl. But that's where you

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Speaker 1: get the phrase overkill, Jory Crawsen. Doctor Crawson is right.

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Speaker 1: This was a very gruesome murder that she sat on.

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Speaker 1: From what I understand, Nancy, this victim was beaten bound

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Speaker 1: and then ultimately strangled with a bell aster being deep

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Speaker 1: with a baseball back. So how did the whole thing start?

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Speaker 1: And we haven't even gotten to the person dog died.

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Speaker 1: I hope they're still alive. All right. You got the

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Speaker 1: cops surrounding the place. One woman comes out carrying okay,

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Speaker 1: they find a gun on her. I don't know where,

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Speaker 1: don't want to think about it. Then she blurts out

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Speaker 1: their children inside, dear Lord in heaven. So what are

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Speaker 1: the cops supposed to do? Wait for somebody else to

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Speaker 1: get killed inside? And how did the whole thing start?

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Speaker 1: Two words dating app? I bet you didn't see that coming.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Bailey Smith wht Heidi Carter met

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Speaker 1: a woman on a dating app. Carter invited the woman

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Speaker 1: and her boyfriend over, and police say they drank alcohol,

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Speaker 1: use drugs, and engage in sexual activity. Police stated that

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Speaker 1: Carter's boyfriend, Carry Hammond, then arrived and became angry. Police

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Speaker 1: say Hammond beat bound and strangled the victim and abused

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Speaker 1: the woman. He had been restrained, duct taped, beaten, and strangled.

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Speaker 1: They also tied and shackled the female victim while the

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Speaker 1: male suspect raped her multiple times throughout the day. Police

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Speaker 1: say Heidi Carter had a gun and was trying to

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Speaker 1: appease Hammond. Investigators say a woman visited Carter to help

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Speaker 1: clean her home. Police say the woman heard someone in

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Speaker 1: the back room and went to investigate. While she was

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Speaker 1: inside the residence, she saw a dead body and ran

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Speaker 1: out of the home to get help. Hamon tried to

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Speaker 1: restrain the woman, but She was able to break free

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Speaker 1: and flag down an Indiana State trooper who called her backup.

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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. Investigators say a woman visited

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Speaker 1: Carter to help clean her home. Police say the woman

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Speaker 1: heard someone in the back room and went to investigate.

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Speaker 1: While she was inside the residence, she saw a dead

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Speaker 1: body and ran out of the home to get help.

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Speaker 1: Hammond tried to restrain the woman, but she was able

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Speaker 1: to break free and flag down an Indiana State trooper

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Speaker 1: who called her backup. And that is what you call

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Speaker 1: running for your life. You come over to our friend's house,

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Speaker 1: you're cleaning up, You sit on a horribly abused dead body.

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Speaker 1: You see another victim tied up. That obviously is the

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Speaker 1: victim who had been raped and raped and raped and

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Speaker 1: beaten and beaten and beaten. And then when she tried

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Speaker 1: to run for it, Cynthia the friend, they tried to

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Speaker 1: hold her back. You know, she got away and took

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Speaker 1: off like a bat out of hell. I guess she did.

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Speaker 1: So we need you, Valerie Lions, desperately to explain how

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Speaker 1: a dating app ends up like this with police surrounding

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Speaker 1: the house where we've got one dead body that we

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Speaker 1: know what happened. Definitely definitely crazy. I mean yeah, So

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Speaker 1: Heidie Carter apparently met the female victim and her boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: the male victim through that app, invited them to that

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Speaker 1: house during the day when Kerry Hammond, Heidi Carter's boyfriend

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Speaker 1: was out. Wait wait wait waite. Okay, who meets who

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Speaker 1: on a dating app? Heidie Carter, who I guess lived

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Speaker 1: in the house, meets an unidentified woman and the two

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Speaker 1: of them get together on a date from a dating app.

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Speaker 1: Do I have it right so far? Yes? Okay, Then

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Speaker 1: you've got the dead victim, Timothy Ivy. How did he

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Speaker 1: get invited over the rape victim? Invited her boyfriend and

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Speaker 1: that's how they all die. So that's how Timothy Ivy

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Speaker 1: shows up. So the girl from the dating app girlfriend

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Speaker 1: shows up for a date with Heidi Carter as she

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Speaker 1: brings along with her her then boyfriend, Timothy Ivy. So

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Speaker 1: that who's in the in the home? The woman who

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Speaker 1: lived there, Heidie Carter, and the dating app girlfriend and

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend Timothy Ivy. Is that right? Yes? Were their

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Speaker 1: children in the home. It was almost like a duplex situation.

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Speaker 1: I have come to the understanding there was another man

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Speaker 1: living in there with his two teenage children and they

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Speaker 1: came out of the house when when all of that

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Speaker 1: went down with when authorities were on scene. So all

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Speaker 1: of this is happening with teen children around. Yeah, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: So during the day, I understand that there was alcohol, drugs, sex,

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Speaker 1: and then what happens carry Hammond, Heidie Carter's boyfriend came in.

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Speaker 1: He saw all of this happening and just grew enraged,

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Speaker 1: and that's when he picked up a baseball bat and

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Speaker 1: started beating them, the female victim and the male victim. Okay, guys,

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Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to our cut four.

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Speaker 1: This is Bailey Smith wht. Police swarmed the house and

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Speaker 1: everyone complied except Hammond. Neighbors stood by watching. He came

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Speaker 1: out gun drawn, which looked like a gun to me,

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Speaker 1: and when he came out, looked like he was let

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Speaker 1: to start firing a shot. Officers located an adults female

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Speaker 1: victim who had been tied up, shackled, and had visible injuries.

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Speaker 1: She was taken to a local hospital for treatment. Another

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Speaker 1: individual was located inside the residence, but unfortunately was deceased

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Speaker 1: and beyond help. The manner of death appeared suspicious and

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Speaker 1: gersome to Vallee Liiance. We keep hearing about the gruesome

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Speaker 1: nature of the murder of Timothy Scott. Let me understand this.

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Speaker 1: Heidi Carter meets up with a woman on a dating app.

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Speaker 1: They show up, they meet up in this home. She

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Speaker 1: brings with her her boyfriend, Timothy Ivy. During all the

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Speaker 1: drugs alcohol in the sex, Heidi Carter's boyfriend comes and

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Speaker 1: then all hell breaks loose because Carrie Hammond is angry

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Speaker 1: that he finds his girlfriend basically in a threesome. That's

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Speaker 1: what's happening. Do I have that rhyme? Yes, exactly. We

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Speaker 1: keep hearing about the gruesome nature of the murderer of

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend, Timothy Scott Ivy. What happened to him? What

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Speaker 1: was the nature of the murderer? He was beaten with

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Speaker 1: that baseball bat, and then at one point both victims

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Speaker 1: were tied up. They were gagged and bound, and in

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Speaker 1: the affidavit it explains that Timothy Ivy tried to break

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Speaker 1: free from those restraints, which only made Carry Hammond get

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Speaker 1: even angrier, so he ultimately started kicking him and beating

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Speaker 1: him more, and then took his own belts, wrapped it

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Speaker 1: around his neck. And strangled him to death due daughter.

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Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, or medical examiner for the State of Florida.

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Speaker 1: Thought of Gallagher in this situation, how do you determine

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Speaker 1: if the victim was bludge and dead or strangle dead. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is a this is gonna complicated case because not

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Speaker 1: only do we have the bludgeting and the strangling gold

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Speaker 1: out the drugs involved, you know, So we want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the drugs did not play a factor,

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Speaker 1: that the beating was that of a fatal nature, and

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Speaker 1: that the strangulation occurred while he was alive. So the strangulation,

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Speaker 1: we'll have to look at the area of the neck,

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Speaker 1: of course, and see if there is active hemorrhaging or

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Speaker 1: bleeding within the ligature area or the belt area that

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Speaker 1: went around his neck. If there is. If there was

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Speaker 1: active bleeding, then it would indicate he was alive when

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Speaker 1: that happened. If there is no active bleeding, then it

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Speaker 1: would indicate he had already been deceased. And we'd have

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Speaker 1: to look at each and every one of the impacts

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Speaker 1: that the bat made to make sure that there are

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Speaker 1: a fatal injury underneath the skin brookem bones, dammage, organs,

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Speaker 1: leading of that nature, and we'd have to send a

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Speaker 1: sample off to toxic College to make sure that drugs

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Speaker 1: or other chemicals were not involved in the in the

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Speaker 1: death and all of this, Cheryl McCollum, because of a

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Speaker 1: dating app freesome. Could it have gone any more wrong? Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how. I mean, you just you think

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Speaker 1: you're this person's aside, you know, the cheat, and they're

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Speaker 1: going to do it in their own home, thinking the

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Speaker 1: boyfriend is not going to come early. But the reality

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Speaker 1: is you also have two minors associated with that house

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Speaker 1: and another adult male. I mean, the odds of you know,

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Speaker 1: being called, if you will, for cheating is going to

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Speaker 1: be pretty easy. And then again, the horrors that occurred

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Speaker 1: in that house. The dead body lay in there, a

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Speaker 1: woman in a back room begging for her life, begging

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Speaker 1: to go to the restaurant, begging for something to drink,

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Speaker 1: and you've got two teenagers in that home. While it

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Speaker 1: leads the post violent just happening, they're in the house

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Speaker 1: with the dead body too. They're in a house with

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Speaker 1: a woman begging to go to the restaurant. It's horrifying. Guys,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut six. This is Randy

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Speaker 1: Moore at fourteen e w FIE AUTOPSI results from the

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Speaker 1: man shot by police on Emazol's West Side earlier this week.

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Speaker 1: The coroner says forty six year old Carry him and

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Speaker 1: dined for multiple gunshot wounds to the chest. Carry Hammond

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Speaker 1: was shot by police officers after they say he raised

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Speaker 1: what appeared to be a weapon as he walked out

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Speaker 1: of the door of a home on sins An Avenue.

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Speaker 1: Police went to the home after getting a call that

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Speaker 1: a body was inside. We say Hammond killed fifty year

425
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: old Timothy Ivy after finding Ivy and a woman with

426
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: his girlfriend inside the home. But he said they found

427
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: the woman restrained and she had been beaten and raped.

428
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Meansy Grace. Now we all hear the

429
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: slogan sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Well it didn't

430
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: turn out that way here. This is anything but a party.

431
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Shelley kirkwe Ht, the Vandiver County

432
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: Corner says fifty year old Timothy Ivy was the man

433
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: who was found dead inside the home on Stintson Avenue,

434
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: and autopsy is scheduled for Ivy tomorrow morning. Also, an

435
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: autopsy was performed on Carry Hammond. He's the suspect who

436
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: died after officers fired on him, as they say he

437
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: pointed but looked like a gun at them. The Corner

438
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: reports Hammond died from multiple gunshot wounds to the chest.

439
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: Belisa Ivy was found dead at the home and another

440
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: woman was bound and raped following a planned meetup that

441
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: involved the sex and drugs. Again, could it have gone

442
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: any more wrong? Of course, police under intense scrutiny for

443
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: firing on carry Hammond. When he comes out of the home,

444
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: they say, don't they valor reliance? He looked like he

445
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: had a gun, and Heidi Carter had already come out

446
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: with a gun. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And you

447
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: know in those situations, you know, you see something that

448
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: looks like a gun and you're already in you know,

449
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: this this crazy situation as it is, with all this information,

450
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: and police say, you know, they did what they had

451
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: to do. Guys, take a listen to our cutting league,

452
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: jump in, Matthew, Well, yes, you know, the police are

453
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: justified in the using lethal force if there's imminent potential

454
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: harm for serious model. And so someone comes out on

455
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: the doorstep and they have what looks like a gun,

456
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: and you have everything else that you know about the circumstances,

457
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: the police would be just a fight and using legal

458
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: force in that situation. You know another thing, Doctor Jerry

459
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: Craws in jumping off what Matthew Mangino just said. You know,

460
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: cops are expected to be superhuman, but they're people just

461
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: like us. And yes, I know they are bad cops.

462
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: I know that, and I hate it. But when you

463
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: think about the cops position out on the street, they

464
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: see violence, gun violence all day long. And then somebody

465
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: comes out of a house you already know there's one

466
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: dead body in there, a woman tied up, another woman

467
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: was almost killed and managed to escape. And somebody comes

468
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: out and it looks like they're holding a weapon. Of course,

469
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: you're going to shoot. They've been told over and over

470
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: and over come out with your hands up. And this

471
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: guy doesn't come out with his hands up. His hands

472
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: were finally revealed and that's where it looked like he

473
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 1: had a weapon. So again, the behavior was initiated by him.

474
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: The police just responded for their safety. Guys, How could

475
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: it all have degenerated in this matter? From what was

476
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: supposed to be a fun date end up with all

477
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: these dead bodies. Take a listen to our cut eleven

478
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: Jessica Costello, fourteen News WFIE. Well after the release of

479
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: that body camera footage, Evansville Police Sergeant Anna Gray walked

480
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: me through what she says we are not able to

481
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: see in that video, including the four minutes that officers

482
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: were asking carry him and repeatedly to come outside with

483
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: his hands up. The body camera footage reveals the first man,

484
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: now identified as the homeowner, Jason Harvey, coming outside with

485
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: his hands up, complying with police. Police say the next

486
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: several minutes included commands from officers for the next man,

487
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: now identified as Carry Hammond, to also come outside with

488
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: his hands up. You had officers who were staged all

489
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: along the front of the home using things such as,

490
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, police vehicles as barricades and cover. You know,

491
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: there were some trease out there that officers were behind

492
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: as well. From our review, we can't see inside of

493
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: the door, but police say Hammond was making himself visible

494
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: to police before stepping out. If this is an open

495
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: doorway right here, they can actually see movement where somebody

496
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: is kind of going in and out of the doorway

497
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: and they are telling him we see you, we see

498
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: you come out, But it didn't end that way. Here's

499
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: more from Jessica Castille. They're giving him commands, you come out,

500
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: come out. Police say. This goes on for four minutes,

501
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: and when Hammond did come out, they considered it in

502
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: an aggressive manner. I mean, it happens very fast. He

503
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: comes out quickly, and there are officers in front of him.

504
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: He comes out and he doesn't show his hands. He

505
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: has his hands out in front and he is holding

506
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: an object out and pointing it. This is a shooter stance.

507
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: Police say, if Hammond would have walked out of the

508
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: home his officers told him to do, the situation would

509
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: have ended differently. The suspect is deceased him we can't

510
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: ask him these type of questions. But when you are

511
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: surrounded by police officers and you come out with an

512
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: object that appears to be a gun and you're pointing

513
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: it like it's a gun. I hate to use the

514
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: word assume, but I can only assume that that is

515
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: going to somebody's mind, go, this is going to get

516
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: me shot. This is gonna get me killed. You know.

517
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: We call these type of situations suicide by cop, suicide

518
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: by cop guys. The only way we're finding out any

519
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: information about what was going on inside that house before

520
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: there were multiple murders. Take a listen to our cut

521
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: thirteen from our friends at WFIE. No, I didn't mention

522
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: Jason Harvey, the man that first walked out of the

523
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: house with his hands up. That's the homeowner. We were

524
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: able to contact him today and although he did not

525
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: want to appear on camera, he did give us a statement.

526
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: In some clarification, Harvey says he and his two children,

527
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: who were inside of the home, are in shock today.

528
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: Harvey says this of Heide Carter, the woman now charged

529
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: with murder. I invited Heidi into our home because she

530
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: was living in a motel and he died a police

531
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: to stay. My kids had a good bund. She never

532
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: showed any signs of being like what had transpired. Harvey says.

533
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: Carter was inviting her boyfriend carry him into over even

534
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: when he asked her not to because of his kids.

535
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: He says, during the time of the incident, I was

536
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: at work or buying groceries. I had laid down. When

537
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: I came out of the bathroom, I noticed lights in

538
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: my windows and I went downstairs to find out what

539
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: was going on, only to be backed out to the police.

540
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: And that's when Harvey says he realized just how extreme

541
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: the situation was. All this going on with children with

542
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: miners in the home. So val reliance. While we think

543
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: that it is, it was in fact Carrie Hammond who

544
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: was the killer who raped and hog tied the female victim.

545
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: I understand now that Heide Carter's also charged with marder

546
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: and abusive a corpse. Yeah, that's right. The affidavit even

547
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: says that you know, she helped him tie up the victims,

548
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: She helped that gun. She made threats that she apparently

549
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: knew someone in Indianapolis who could hide a body. So

550
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: she definitely helps in all of this. And I'm I

551
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: can't say for sure of Hammond is now dead, all

552
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 1: those charges really weigh on her. Now, imagine that scenario,

553
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: Sharon McCollum. You go on a dating app, you go

554
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: meet up with another woman, you bring along your boyfriend.

555
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: They think it's going to be a threesome, and then

556
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: all hell, and I mean hell, with the devil himself

557
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: showing up. It's awful again. I think we need to

558
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: go back and I think things like your book How

559
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: Not to Become a Victim comes into play here. You

560
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: have met somebody on a dating app, which means you

561
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: don't know that person. You arrive at a home that

562
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: should give you some clue that, hey, you know this

563
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: is not maybe the hypel place that I need to

564
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: go because they've now got home court advantage, so to speak.

565
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: There's drugs involved, there's alcohol involved, and everything went wrong,

566
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: Cheryl when it comes to dating appsolutely, you're absolutely right,

567
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: and everybody jump in if you got a better idea.

568
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: But never go alone somewhere. Never go to somebody else's

569
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,959
Speaker 1: home the first time you meet them to a private place.

570
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: Don't do that. I mean everything you're not supposed to

571
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: do as exactly what they did. And now there are

572
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: dead bodies piling up at the morgue. We wait as

573
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye friend,