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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I'm excited to hear what you're going

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Speaker 1: to think about the conclusion of this case and everything

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Speaker 1: that we've talked about. This is another one in your wheelhouse.

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Speaker 2: You love stuff like this for sure, you know, and

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Speaker 2: it's an interesting series. I of course knew about the

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Speaker 2: Boston Strangler, but the details I couldn't remember. And so

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Speaker 2: now hearing you tell, you know, what has happened up

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Speaker 2: to this point in time has started to cause me to,

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Speaker 2: you know, think about things a.

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Speaker 1: Little bit well, I like it. I think we learned

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Speaker 1: stuff with every one of these stories, and I'm always

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Speaker 1: interested in what you and I pick up on, particularly

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Speaker 1: with the serial killer story, just because you know they're

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Speaker 1: unusual and you sometimes can see a pattern. Sometimes there's

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Speaker 1: no pattern. But I think you you especially always to

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Speaker 1: spell myths by the end of it, that we all

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Speaker 1: think they only want blondes or they're only going to

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Speaker 1: kill older people, you know, And so it's I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to know stuff.

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Speaker 2: Like that for sure.

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Speaker 1: Before we continue talking about the Boston Strangler, Paul, you

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Speaker 1: and I are taking a fantastic trip in October with

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Speaker 1: Virgin Voyage is True Crime Voyage. They have a huge

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Speaker 1: Halloween costume party. No, boy, I know, are you a

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Speaker 1: costume guy? And you cannot say I'm going as a

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Speaker 1: forensic investigator or a cold case investigator. You're gonna have

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Speaker 1: to think outside the box here.

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Speaker 2: You know, I am not a costume guy. In fact,

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Speaker 2: my family gets on me because I don't. I don't

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Speaker 2: even know the last time I've ever dressed up.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're gonna have to change that. What would be

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Speaker 1: your aura around costumes, like, what are we thinking superhero?

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Speaker 1: Paul Hohole's superhero.

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Speaker 2: Come on, no, you know, I think kind of going

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Speaker 2: back to the roots and like a Sherlock Holmes type

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Speaker 2: of and you know motif, if you.

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Speaker 1: Will, I got you. So I'll be a Watson if

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Speaker 1: you be a Sherlock Holmes. Okay, and then we'll switch

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Speaker 1: costumes in the middle. How about that something like that.

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Speaker 2: All right, you're on.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be a good costume party. Okay.

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Speaker 1: We're in Boston nineteen sixty two. There are seven murders

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Speaker 1: between June and essentially New Year's Eve of nineteen sixty two.

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Speaker 1: Some are in Boston. I think there are three or

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Speaker 1: four in Back Bay. Some are outside of Boston. I

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Speaker 1: know one in Lynn. And there is a kind of

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Speaker 1: a different smattering of connections with different victims. You have

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Speaker 1: kind of a slew. I think it is five of

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Speaker 1: older women. There are five victims who are older and

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Speaker 1: they are all together ish before he takes what appears

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Speaker 1: to be about a two or three month break. And

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Speaker 1: then the next victim is not only much younger, she's nineteen,

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Speaker 1: but she's also black. Then on December thirty first, so

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Speaker 1: New Year's Eve, we have Patricia, who is twenty three,

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Speaker 1: and white. So you know, we've talked about the spelling,

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Speaker 1: the myths of there has to be a certain race,

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Speaker 1: there has to be a certain age, and all of that.

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Speaker 1: Have you thought about any of this, you know, since

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Speaker 1: we've talked last week?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, the first five victims are

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Speaker 2: older white women, ranging in age from fifty six to

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Speaker 2: seventy five. But outside of the first woman who was

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Speaker 2: fifty six, I mean, these other women are sixty five

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Speaker 2: to seventy five years old. And the photo that you

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Speaker 2: sent me last week, I mean, these women do look older.

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Speaker 2: So he is purposefully choosing this type of victim. Now

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Speaker 2: only he can say why the older women. But then

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Speaker 2: he takes a break and when he comes back, and

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Speaker 2: this is what early December was Sophie, the nineteen year

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Speaker 2: old black female. This is where it's like, well, is

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Speaker 2: he evolving sort of like what I said last week

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Speaker 2: and has now got the confidence to commit crimes and

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Speaker 2: is now moving more into maybe the age range of

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Speaker 2: his sexual preference. Is you know, that's a possibility. Was

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Speaker 2: Sophie just an opportunity? He's not selecting her just because

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Speaker 2: you know she's a younger black female. It may be

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Speaker 2: here's a woman that I can sexually assault. She's isolated

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Speaker 2: inside her residence. So there's always that anytime you see

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Speaker 2: something that seems to be a deviation, you can't really say, well,

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Speaker 2: he did that purposely. It could be just because the

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Speaker 2: opportunity presented itself. And then he comes back and now

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Speaker 2: assaults Patricia, who's twenty three, and she's left in the

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Speaker 2: bed and is covered. So you know, the two of

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Speaker 2: the victims, Jane, who was sixty seven in the bathtub,

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Speaker 2: was covered, and Patricia, who's twenty three, is in her

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Speaker 2: bed and she's covered. So I kind of pay attention

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Speaker 2: to that. Jane is significantly different in terms of a

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Speaker 2: house cope being put on her in the bathtub. With Patricia,

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Speaker 2: it may just be a kind of a practical aspect.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to make it look like she's just asleep

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Speaker 2: in the bed and is pulling the sheets all the

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Speaker 2: way up to her chin.

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Speaker 1: Well, now we are sort of going backwards and forwards

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Speaker 1: at the same time. So two months after the last murder,

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Speaker 1: so that would have been Patricia. Now we're in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty three March, and we are with a sixty nine

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Speaker 1: year old widow. Her name is Mary, brown, and I

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Speaker 1: will note if these victims are not white, we'll just

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Speaker 1: say that, just assume everybody is white. Moving forward with

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Speaker 1: the exception of Sophie, So Lynn is about thirty miles

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Speaker 1: outside of Back Bay, and now we've got Mary who

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Speaker 1: is in Lawrence, which is twenty five miles north of Boston.

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Speaker 1: So location wise, we're in around Boston, especially in the

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Speaker 1: Back Bay. Then we're not what do you think about that?

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Speaker 1: Does that mean anything?

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Speaker 2: No, you know, these distances are just everyday distances that

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Speaker 2: people frequently will travel because of you know, their work

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Speaker 2: or where they're or family lives, et cetera. So this

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Speaker 2: is not anything unusual in a series. You frequently see

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Speaker 2: victims that are spaced, you know, thirty miles apart. It's

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Speaker 2: when you get to where now you start seeing interstate travel,

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Speaker 2: where you see large distances that the offender is covering.

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Speaker 2: Now you go, okay, the offender is truly moving around.

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Speaker 2: What does that tell me about the offender's life, his occupation,

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Speaker 2: you know. So that's when you start diving into sort

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Speaker 2: of let's say a geographic profile. I'm now just taking

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Speaker 2: a look at these movements. Going, Okay, the offender seems

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Speaker 2: to have a strong connection to Back Bay, Boston, but

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Speaker 2: he's moving out, you know, thirty miles away in a

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Speaker 2: couple of different directions. There may be a reason for that.

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Speaker 2: Maybe his job is taking him out there, maybe as

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Speaker 2: an anchor point, something in his life pulls him out

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Speaker 2: to those particular locations. I right now would not suspect

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Speaker 2: that the offender is purposely getting away from Boston in

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Speaker 2: order to offend, just to throw a law enforcement off

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Speaker 2: I'm not gathering that just yet.

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Speaker 1: Well keep gathering because there's a lot of information. You know,

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Speaker 1: now we've gone from a twenty three year old to

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Speaker 1: a sixty nine year old outside of Boston. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you about what happened. Mary had been beaten and

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Speaker 1: stabbed and possibly strangled. They said marks are found on

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Speaker 1: her neck that looked like she was strangled with someone's

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Speaker 1: bare hands. Now, there are some articles that say that

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Speaker 1: Mary is fifty five, but that is the wrong age.

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Speaker 1: She's sixty nine. I can probably pull up one. I

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Speaker 1: guess I was just wondering if she looked younger than

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Speaker 1: she actually was. Does that matter to you at all

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Speaker 1: at this point?

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Speaker 2: Well, right now, you know she's sixty nine years old

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Speaker 2: and based off of the previous victims. I would not

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Speaker 2: doubt that in the offender's mind, she looks like an

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Speaker 2: older person. That's some sort of criteria that he's using

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Speaker 2: to choose the older victims.

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Speaker 1: M hmm. Okay, So let me tell you a little

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Speaker 1: bit bit more about what happened. Her clothing had been

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Speaker 1: ripped off her body, and her dress was in tatters,

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Speaker 1: and it was found over her head. There's a towel

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Speaker 1: in her mouth. She had been stabbed with a two

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Speaker 1: pronged meat fork ca So this is graphic. This is

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Speaker 1: found sticking out of her chest. She's been beaten so

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Speaker 1: badly that her face is unrecognizable, and she has several

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Speaker 1: skull fractures. The towel that was found in her mouth

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Speaker 1: was they said, halfway down her throat. It's described as

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Speaker 1: a towel, but you know, it's probably more of like

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Speaker 1: a hand towel. And she's found with her rubber overshoes

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Speaker 1: and her stocking still on. So the overshoes are just

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Speaker 1: for this old school rain gear. And there's evidence that

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Speaker 1: she had been sexually assaulted, and they recover semen from

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Speaker 1: her body. Now the beating throws me off that we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this before that things change and things happen,

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Speaker 1: and different situations in the serial killer's mind call for

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Speaker 1: different methods. But this seems even more violent than what

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Speaker 1: we've seen already, especially with the fork seeking.

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Speaker 2: Out well Mary sixty nine. She is likely not able

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Speaker 2: to put up much of a fight against this offender,

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Speaker 2: so this isn't a situation where he's beating her this

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Speaker 2: severely in order to get her under control gain her compliance.

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Speaker 2: This level of violence on Mary suggests to me there

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Speaker 2: is something going on in the offender's life that has

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Speaker 2: made him angry at this point. I would with what

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Speaker 2: I am interpreting about what happened to Mary, is this

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Speaker 2: offender at this point is what I would call an

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Speaker 2: anger retaliatory type of offender. Something in his life has

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Speaker 2: made him angry, and he's using Mary. He's taking that

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Speaker 2: anger out on Mary. Anytime I'm looking at a victim

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Speaker 2: who has been beat out the head, you know, that

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Speaker 2: generally suggests that there's that anger component. He's like this guy,

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Speaker 2: strangulation is core to his fantasy. There's a sexual component

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Speaker 2: for this guy about the strangulation. Yes, he's using strangulation

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Speaker 2: with other victims to kill them, but that's part of

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Speaker 2: what he's doing. He needs to do that strangulation. The

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Speaker 2: beating is a different thing. He's I don't believe he's

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Speaker 2: someone that is getting sexually gratified by beating Mary this severely.

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Speaker 2: And then he's also stabbing right, So he's taking a

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Speaker 2: lot of anger out on Mary. But there is the

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Speaker 2: sexual component. He sexually assaults her, but he's ripping her

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Speaker 2: clothing off in order to be able to gain access

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Speaker 2: to do the sexual assault. So it'll be interesting to

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Speaker 2: see if he stays in this anger component to his

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Speaker 2: attacks or does he go back to more of the

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Speaker 2: types of strangulations we saw with some of the prior victims.

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Speaker 1: Looks like Mary had been in poor health. She was

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Speaker 1: seen the day before she was murdered. She might have

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Speaker 1: gone to a hospital. I haven't read yay Orne about that,

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Speaker 1: but that's my assumption and I'll tell you why in

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Speaker 1: a minute. She's in a three family tenement that is

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Speaker 1: real shabby, and you know, it sounds like it's an

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Speaker 1: apartment one or two floors above a shop on the

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Speaker 1: main level. But the door to her apartment was bolted.

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Speaker 1: They had to break down the door and there's no

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Speaker 1: word on the windows. I'm assuming he must have gone

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Speaker 1: out a window and the apartment was ransacked. It looks

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Speaker 1: like there was a shoe put up a fight. Looks

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Speaker 1: like there was a struggle. And they said, reporters just

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Speaker 1: saw the scenes, said there was blood all over the place. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, you were saying, when we get to the

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Speaker 1: next victims, let's see if this is continuing to be

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Speaker 1: a you know, more and more violent or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Right, And do you know that the bolt to the

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Speaker 2: front door, is that something that could be undone with

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Speaker 2: a key from outside the apartment.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if it was you

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Speaker 1: know what I had in New York one of those

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Speaker 1: bolts that just goes right across.

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Speaker 2: Okay, there are offenders that would track down victims keys

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Speaker 2: and then lock the door behind them on the way out.

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Speaker 1: So we've talked about Mary. Mary was victim number eight.

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Speaker 1: Now we're going on to victim number nine. And this

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Speaker 1: is May eighth, so about two months after Mary. And

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Speaker 1: this is a twenty six year old opera singer who

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Speaker 1: was a Boston University graduate student, and she was also

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Speaker 1: a music therapist and she worked in a hospital. Her

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Speaker 1: name is Beverly Sammons, and she's in Cambridge. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you about what happens with Beverly. She's lying on

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Speaker 1: a pull out couch. The medical examiner does not think

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Speaker 1: she was strangled because no bones in her neck are broken.

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Speaker 1: That's not right, right, do they don't need to be broken,

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Speaker 1: do they?

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Speaker 2: One of the diagnostic aspects to determine manual strangulation is

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Speaker 2: if the hyoid bone is broken. The hyoid bone sits

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Speaker 2: high up in the neck, kind of right underneath the

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Speaker 2: jaw that the tongue attaches to, and when somebody is

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Speaker 2: compressing with hands, that hyoid bone can't really move out

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Speaker 2: of the way and it can be fractured in manual

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Speaker 2: strangulation with a thinner ligature. During ligature strangulation, the hyoid

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Speaker 2: oftentimes is never contacted by the ligature. So that's how

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Speaker 2: a pathologist can go, oh, it looks like there's manual

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Speaker 2: strangulation even though there's a ligature that's been applied. That's

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Speaker 2: one of those diagnostic features here. The pathologists must not

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Speaker 2: be seeing any hemorrhaging in the neck muscles. There must

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Speaker 2: not be even the the larynx. The throat structures also

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Speaker 2: can be damaged during strangula, So the pathologist is not

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Speaker 2: seeing that, and he must not also be seeing let's say, PETIKIAI,

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Speaker 2: because when the pressure builds up during strangulation, the capillarias

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Speaker 2: in your blood and other aspects of the upper part

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Speaker 2: of your body can burst, and so you start seeing

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Speaker 2: these little blood bursts in the eyes.

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Speaker 1: As an example, some investigators actually said that because Beverly

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Speaker 1: was an opera singer, her throat muscles were exceptionally well developed,

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Speaker 1: which might have made it harder for someone to strangle her.

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Speaker 1: But pause a second before you say anything. There were

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Speaker 1: two scarves and a nylon stocking found looped around her neck,

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Speaker 1: and her hands were tied behind her back, and there

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Speaker 1: is a definite cause in that she was stabbed seventeen times.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, so it is a neither hero nor there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know, they're just trying to

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Speaker 1: go through with the strangling part at this point. So

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Speaker 1: what do you think about the throat muscles being developed?

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Speaker 1: But there's obviously something wrapped around her neck, you know,

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Speaker 1: I just.

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Speaker 2: Don't think i'd put a lot of weight on. I mean,

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Speaker 2: maybe she does have strong or neck muscles, you know,

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Speaker 2: I just don't see how that is going to make

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Speaker 2: it that much more difficult, particularly in a ligature strangulation,

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Speaker 2: for somebody to be successful. I mean, it's the neck.

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Speaker 2: This all soft tissue, and we're talking about with whether

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Speaker 2: even you have a man with strong hands or you

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Speaker 2: have a ligature encircling the neck, those those that soft

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Speaker 2: tissue is going to compress. And you know, fundamentally, it's

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Speaker 2: it's not so much the muscles, it's it's the closing off,

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Speaker 2: you know, the carotid arteries. And so that doesn't make

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Speaker 2: a lot of sense to me. Now you said that

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Speaker 2: stockings had been looped around her neck, Yeah, but not

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Speaker 2: used as a ligature.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why they're not convinced that she's been strangled. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it says a lot of the stab wounds are

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Speaker 1: concentrated through her left lungeung and there were four slashes

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Speaker 1: in her throat, two on each side. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: she was fighting so hard he couldn't strangle her and

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Speaker 1: he hadn't you know, he had a knife. I don't know.

293
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Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's still taking the time to loop the

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Speaker 2: stockings around her neck. You know, i'd want to evaluate

295
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Speaker 2: the you know, the crime scene to see exactly if

296
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Speaker 2: I could sequence what happened. But the way that I

297
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 2: am interpreting things is that these stockings have been placed

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Speaker 2: by the offender, probably after she's dead. I've seen this.

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Speaker 2: This is where this offender has a compulsion. This is

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Speaker 2: where there's that fantasy component to where he has a

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Speaker 2: need to put these stockings around her neck, even though

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Speaker 2: he's not using them as a ligature.

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Speaker 1: Well, the police think that she let the killer in

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Speaker 1: no signs of forced entry. They say, as I said

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Speaker 1: seventeen times, they do not find the weapon, they aren't

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Speaker 1: sure what the weapon would be, and they think she

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Speaker 1: was killed after eleven pm that Sunday night because she

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Speaker 1: didn't show up at choir practice. So you know, we're

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Speaker 1: kind of left with that. We can't talk about affluent

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Speaker 1: versus not. But you know, you have Mary who's in

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Speaker 1: a shabby tenement outside of the city. You've got this

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Speaker 1: woman who has apparently a nice apartment in Cambridge, you know,

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Speaker 1: right across the river from the city. It's odd, but

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Speaker 1: the scene seems so similar and very violent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right now, the only pattern that is possibly present

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Speaker 2: in terms of shared characteristics of the victims seems to

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Speaker 2: be this medical aspect, even though Mary is sort of

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Speaker 2: in a shabby area. You know, how is he selecting

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Speaker 2: these victims? Is he following them or is he just

320
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Speaker 2: going to a location and finding somebody that fits what

321
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Speaker 2: he needs? You know, that's always a possibility. So it's

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Speaker 2: kind of hard right now to be able to say,

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Speaker 2: you know, what is going on on why is he

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Speaker 2: moving around the way he is and going from middle

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Speaker 2: upper class type neighborhoods to like with Mary, something that

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Speaker 2: sounds a little bit more lower income, shabby type of environment.

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Speaker 2: But he's comfortable moving around in those types of neighborhoods.

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Speaker 1: And again, we could be back with the healthcare connection

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Speaker 1: because I mentioned that Beverly worked in a hospital at

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Speaker 1: one point as a music therapist, but she also worked

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Speaker 1: part time as a counselor in a psychiatric facility. So

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Speaker 1: now we're moving on to I think this is our

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Speaker 1: tenth victim. This is four months later, September eighth, so

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Speaker 1: this has now been going on for July August, a

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Speaker 1: year and three months. And we're in Salem and that

336
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Speaker 1: is fifty miles north of Boston. This is a fifty

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Speaker 1: eight year old woman. Her name is Evelyn Corbin. She's

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Speaker 1: in her apartment. She is discovered by her downstairs neighbor

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Speaker 1: on a Sunday afternoon. Police thinks she had been held

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Speaker 1: that same morning when she was getting ready to go

341
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Speaker 1: to mass So here are the details. She has found

342
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Speaker 1: sprawled across her bed in her bedroom. She is dressed

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Speaker 1: in a robe which sounds very much like Anna, and

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Speaker 1: they're about the same age. I'm not trying to make

345
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Speaker 1: anything out of anything, but she had a blue nightgown

346
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Speaker 1: and socks on, and she had been strangled by several

347
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Speaker 1: different nylon stockings that are found around her neck. Blood

348
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:27,879
Speaker 1: is in her ears, They find a bruise on her chest,

349
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Speaker 1: and they cannot determine if she had been sexually assaulted.

350
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Speaker 1: The police are questioning a man in his forties who

351
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Speaker 1: is described as an acquaintance of Evelyn's, and other people

352
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,640
Speaker 1: have been questioned, but there were no arrests and no

353
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Speaker 1: connection with the victims. And I don't see a mention

354
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Speaker 1: of a hospital anywhere.

355
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Speaker 2: You know. One of the things that just dawned on

356
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Speaker 2: me is that a majority and maybe all the victims

357
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Speaker 2: so far, they live in apartments. These aren't detached single

358
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Speaker 2: family houses, you know. So it's interesting from evaluating the

359
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 2: why is he choosing apartments when you have sort of

360
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 2: a concentration of residents, You've got a parking lot, you've

361
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Speaker 2: got residents that are kind of coming and going all

362
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Speaker 2: the time that you can't control. When somebody can pop

363
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Speaker 2: up out of their apartment as you're walking up to

364
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Speaker 2: the victim's location, as the offender's walking up to the

365
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 2: victim's location. So it seems like this would be elevated

366
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Speaker 2: risk by choosing these types of locations versus going into

367
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Speaker 2: a neighborhood and choosing a victim in a house.

368
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Speaker 1: Why would he do that? That's so risky.

369
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Speaker 2: Well, that's where you know, from my perspective, the offenders

370
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Speaker 2: showing a level of comfort with this type of location. Now,

371
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Speaker 2: why does he have that? Maybe he has an occupation

372
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Speaker 2: that causes him to do a lot of work within apartments.

373
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Speaker 2: There's something about that though, that I think will be significant.

374
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Speaker 1: We are now to our final victim that we know of,

375
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Speaker 1: the final canonical Boston strangler victim. It's another Mary. Her

376
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Speaker 1: name is Mary Sullivan. She's found on Sunday, January fifth,

377
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Speaker 1: So Mary is nineteen. She's found in her apartment in

378
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Speaker 1: Beacon Hill, which means we're back in Boston. No sign

379
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Speaker 1: of forced entry in the apartment she had been They

380
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 1: said sexually molested, they said semen is found on Mary's

381
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: body and on a nearby blanket. There's a card that

382
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Speaker 1: says Happy New Year that is found by her foot,

383
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 1: but the press is not reporting that, so it sounds

384
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Speaker 1: like maybe the police had withheld that information.

385
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 2: Do they think the offender brought that card?

386
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: I don't know, or maybe that was going to be

387
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 1: the way to test whether they had found the right

388
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: offender or not. But found right by her foot, She's

389
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Speaker 1: found by her roommates. She had just moved into the

390
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: apartment three days prior. She's found naked in her bedroom,

391
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 1: strangled with her own nylon stockings and two nylon scarves

392
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Speaker 1: around her neck. So four nylon on items around her neck.

393
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Speaker 2: Why does the offender need to do that? Anytime the

394
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 2: offender does something that is unnecessary, you have to pay

395
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: attention to it. Again, he's got a compulsion about ligature strangulation.

396
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 2: This is core to the fantasy that he is trying

397
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,919
Speaker 2: to live out by attacking these victims. It just dawned

398
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: on me, this Happy New Year's card by her foot.

399
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 2: I think law enforcement must think that this card was

400
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 2: purposely placed by her foot by the offender, yeah, versus

401
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 2: something you know, just on the floor that was already

402
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 2: in her apartment.

403
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: Well, they have a couple of clues. They say that

404
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: they found with the press footprints, but you and I

405
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: can always say they're probably means shoe prints in the

406
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: snow on a neighboring rooftop which is right below Mary's

407
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 1: kitchen window. So they think maybe that's how he gained

408
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,239
Speaker 1: access to her. Okay, she's on the second floor, and

409
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: it sounds like the building next to her is just

410
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: one story. They also find fingerprints in the apartment. They

411
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: had also found fingerprints in Anna's apartment, but we don't

412
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: see reporting or in the police files about whether or

413
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 1: not they match those two fingerprints together. Here's the upsetting

414
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: sexual assault description. So I'm glad this is the last

415
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: thing we're talking about. So this was the extra trigger warning.

416
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: A homicide detective tells the newspapers that a sexual aberration

417
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: that had been present as some of the previous crime scenes,

418
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: the earlier ones we talked about, was also present at

419
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: this one. But that you know, it doesn't seem like

420
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: this is something that was really widely reported. So Mary,

421
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: according to the medical examiner, had been sexually assaulted with

422
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: a broom handle, and it is still in her when

423
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: her body is discovered. And that's all we know about

424
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: the series of eleven murders from the Boston Strangler until

425
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 1: we get a suspect.

426
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we know that on some of the earlier

427
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 2: victims there are suspicion that there is for an object

428
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 2: insertion vaginally. And it's possible that that object was either

429
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: the offender took it with him or it was present

430
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: inside the victim's other victim's residents and they just didn't

431
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 2: recognize it had been used. Let's say a broom handle

432
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 2: had been used, you know, but wasn't near the body,

433
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: wasn't left in the body like in Mary's case. The

434
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: offender is doing this for shock value. If he's purposely

435
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: putting that Happy New Year's card by her foot and

436
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: he's putting this broom handle into her vagina and leaving

437
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: it there, he is taunting. That's what he's doing with

438
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 2: those actions and the Happy New Year card. I'm assuming

439
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 2: that that's something that probably was inside Mary's residence and

440
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 2: he saw it and probably chuckled a little bit. I'm

441
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 2: a happy New Year, investigators. I'm still here the stockings.

442
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: He has the compulsion to do that. That's part of

443
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: his fantasy, as I've mentioned before. But it does sound

444
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: like in this series there's multiple victims in which they

445
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 2: found semen.

446
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: It's not clear if it's inside them though, No.

447
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 2: At least the way you describe, because they say semen

448
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: on the body, and it's possible he's ejaculating outside the body.

449
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: He's masturbating over the victims' bodies. We have the with Sophie,

450
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: you know, the semen stain that was found near her body,

451
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 2: but outside it was on the floor. Right, there's a

452
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: strong sexual component, but there's also strong physical evidence in

453
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: some of these cases to today that we would be

454
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: able to use to identify who this offender is.

455
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I see for Mary Brown, who was the

456
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: woman the in Lawrence in the tenement type, the shabby type,

457
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: semen recovered from her body. And then you've got this

458
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: Mary here where it says it was found on Mary's

459
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: body and on a nearby blanket. So this is our

460
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: final victim, and now we're going to get to a

461
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: suspect who has been you know, the suspect that everybody

462
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: has considered the suspect for the past. You know, more

463
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: than forty years after the death of Mary, the whole

464
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: case goes cold. There is actually a strangler task Force.

465
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's what they called themselves. They

466
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: must have, so there was a special task force and

467
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: they tried everything. They even went to a psychic, so

468
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: they were pretty desperate, I think, and there was no

469
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: momentum until March of nineteen sixty five. So our final victim,

470
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: Mary Sullivan, was January early January of nineteen sixty four,

471
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: so a year and a couple months later, so two

472
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: years after all of this started. There's an inmate at

473
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: the Massachusetts Correctional Institute Bridgewater, which is a psychiatric facility

474
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: for sex offenders, and he confesses to the murders. And

475
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: his name is Albert DeSalvo, which is now at this

476
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: point a very famous name for anybody who's into true crime,

477
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: at least historical true crime. Let me tell you about him.

478
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: He's thirty four years old. He has grown up in

479
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: various parts of New England under really horrific abuse of circumstances.

480
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: So at one point he was sold by his father

481
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: as a laborer to a farmer in Maine. And you know,

482
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: his father was incredibly violent toward his mother when Albert

483
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 1: was there, and he regularly brought sex workers home while

484
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: the family was in the house, and the mother eventually

485
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: divorced the father, but then remarries another man who also

486
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: physically abuses the children. And as a teenager, Albert starts

487
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: having brushes with the law for theft. So before we

488
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: talk about the confessions, what he says happened, you know,

489
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of lay out where he was

490
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: coming from. Albert joins the military, gets married, he has

491
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: two kids, but he keeps getting arrested for stuff, and

492
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: he's given shorter sentences throughout the fifties, breaking and entering larceny.

493
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: He is convicted of sexually abusing a child in New Jersey.

494
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: I don't know the circumstances, but he is trying to

495
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: break into a house in Cambridge, which is where one

496
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: of the upper Singer was located in Cambridge in March

497
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty one, so this would have been about

498
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: a year and a half before that incident happened in Cambridge.

499
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: He's brought in for questioning, and Albert tells the police

500
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: that he had been connected to a string of other crimes,

501
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: not the strangler crimes, But there was a man who

502
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: was nicknamed the Measuring Man. He had been going door

503
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: to door in Cambridge, claiming to be a modeling scout,

504
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: and he would offer to take women's measurements under the ruse,

505
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: of course, he would engrope and harass the women who

506
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: called the police. In the end, he's found guilty only

507
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: of several breaking and entering charges, and he sentenced to

508
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: two years in prison. He gets out two months before

509
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: Anna's murder, which is our first murder, so you know,

510
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: he was caught breaking and entering. Albert can In fesses

511
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: to being the measuring Man, and then he serves time

512
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: in prison and he gets out right beforehand. So we

513
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: have between sixty two and sixty four this string of

514
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: murders that are attributed specifically to the Boston Strangler. Then,

515
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: starting in May of sixty four, there's a string of

516
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: sexual crimes in the Boston area that they're trying to

517
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: connect to Dessalvo. So DeSalvo is not yet in this

518
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: prison for sexual offenders. He's out and about and this

519
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: is not murder, but these are sexual crimes. In some

520
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: the man breaks into the house when the women are sleeping,

521
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: and others he enters apartments pretending to be a maintenance worker,

522
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: like what happened with Sophie, usually saying there's a leak

523
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: in the building, although I think hers was a painter.

524
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: In some cases he ties the women up with clothing

525
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: found in the apartment, and in some cases also he

526
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: asks them for money. Some of the women are groped

527
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: and some are forced to perform oral sex, but nobody

528
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: is strangled or which is important to connect to the

529
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: other cases. The victims ages varied greatly, and in some

530
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: of the cases, the man wears a dark green shirt

531
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: and pants they think possibly meant to resemble a maintenance worker.

532
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: I think what's happening is Albert Disavo is confessing to

533
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: being the measuring man, but they are also saying the

534
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: measuring man is the same person as what they're calling

535
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: the green man. That's the guy who dresses up like

536
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: a maintenance worker. So in the morning of October twenty

537
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: seventh of sixty four, there's a twenty year old Boston

538
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: University student named Suzanne macht. She wakes up to find

539
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: a strange man standing in her room. He says he's

540
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: a police detective, and he immediately backtracks and say, oh, well,

541
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: actually I'm wanted by the police. Before she can do anything,

542
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: he ties her hands up and her feet. He has

543
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: a knife. He says, I'm not going to hurt you.

544
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: He blindfolds her and gropes her, then asks her to

545
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: not tell his mother what he's done, and she says, please,

546
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: that this is hurting my hands. Please loosen the bonds,

547
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: and he does it, and then when he leaves, Susanna

548
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: escapes and calls her husband, who then calls the police. So,

549
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: based on this description, the all green clothing description, police

550
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: think that the green man is the same as the

551
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: measuring man, and DeSalvo has confessed to being the measuring man.

552
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: So he's arrested and held for observation, and when he's there,

553
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: he confesses to a cellmate named George Nasser to being

554
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: the Boston Strangler. We can talk about Albert DeSalvo and

555
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: why the police aren't so sure that he was the

556
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 1: Boston strangler to begin with. But if he is the

557
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: strangler and we've seen all of this violence, does it

558
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: make sense to you that he would also be the

559
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: Measuring Man and the Green Man, who is while doing

560
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: terrible things groping women against their will, forcing them to

561
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: do some things. Seems very different than what's happening with

562
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: the Boston Strangler case.

563
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: No. I agree. As we walked through each of the

564
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 2: Boston Strangler victims, I keyed in on those specific types

565
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: of behaviors that he has a compulsion to do, and

566
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: that is that strangulation, and he's killing these victims and

567
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: sometimes he's inflicting high levels of islands. This seems completely

568
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: different than what's happening in the Measuring Man series or

569
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: the Green Man. Now there might be some overlap, Like

570
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: with Sophie, you have the ear witness that overhears a

571
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: man posing as a painter, presumably to get access into

572
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: Sophie's residents, But that's just not a unique enough characteristic

573
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: to say, well, if you've got this green man that's

574
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: posing as you know, a maintenance man in order to

575
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: gain access, it must be the same guy. No, this

576
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,760
Speaker 2: this is a common ruse in order to be able

577
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: to get into victim's residents. So I think the just

578
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: from a fundamental type of offender, the Boston Strangler is very,

579
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: very different than the Measuring Man and or green Man,

580
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: and these series are overlapping. Boston Strangler victims are overlapping

581
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: with this measuring Man green Man series. I think you

582
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: have two different offenders. And this is where now this

583
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: confession that DeSalvo makes to a selly about being the

584
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 2: Boston Strangler, Okay, let's hear the details. What details can

585
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: he provide about the Boston Strangler crimes?

586
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: And when he talks about this, he is bringing up

587
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: several things that you have talked about in the past.

588
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: So let me tell you there have been and police

589
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: officers who have interacted with DiSalvo before. And when he

590
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: says to his Sally, I'm the Boston Strangler and George

591
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: Nasa reports it, the police say bullshit. He wants to

592
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: be important, he likes to brag. And the medical director

593
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: at the facility, who is a guy named doctor Robi,

594
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: doesn't ever believe that DeSalvo is the strangler. He says

595
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: that DeSalvo has a desperate need to be someone important.

596
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: He does seem to know some details about the crimes

597
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: that had not been reported. But on the other hand,

598
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: the police say he gets things wrong that the press

599
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: had also gotten wrong, so it's clear he's also been

600
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 1: reading things about the press. They question him for weeks

601
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty five. In addition to all the murderers

602
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 1: the police knew about and connected to the Strangler, he

603
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: also confesses to one other one, an eighty five years

604
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: old woman named Mary Mullen, who police were never able

605
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: to connect to the strangler. He says that he attacked

606
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: her about a week after Anna, and I think there

607
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: was a two week gap between Anna and Nina Nichols. Yeah,

608
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: so two weeks. So he's saying in between he attacked

609
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: an eighty five year old woman, but that she died

610
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: of a heart attack before he could strangle her. Ultimately,

611
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: they don't ever try him for being the strangler. He

612
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: has tried for being the green Man and the measuring Man.

613
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 1: He's found guilty, he sentenced to life in prison, and

614
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: he goes back to Bridgewater. So what you say makes sense,

615
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: and there's more to the story. So don't give up

616
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: just yet on me, because we do have an update.

617
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: But let's get through his ending. So he's given, as

618
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: I said, life in prison in January of sixty seven.

619
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: Next month, he and two inmates escape by stealing a

620
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: key to the cells and leaving the prison through an

621
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: elevator because there was a it was under construction. But

622
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: he turns himself in the next day and he's transferred

623
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: to a maximum security facility, which will be literally the

624
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: death of him, because he dies after being stabbed in

625
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: the prison infirmary. But people still don't believe that he

626
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: was the strangler. So what do you think now?

627
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 2: I'm sure at the time the name Albert DeSalvo was

628
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: in the headlines. Yeah, so he is a very high

629
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: profile inmate, and so of course he's going to be

630
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 2: a target in the prison system, not only because of

631
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 2: the high profile nature, but the types of crimes that

632
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: he was committed nor that he was convicted of, you know,

633
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: so I'm not surprised that he was killed in prison.

634
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: I need to be convinced that he truly was a

635
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: measuring man in the green Man, even though he was convicted.

636
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: You know, I'd like to know the details of the

637
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 2: case that was actually made against him in those in

638
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: order to kind of further firm up my opinion that

639
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: if DeSalvo's the measuring man green Man, he's a different

640
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 2: offender than the Boston Strangler.

641
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you how this ends up. So

642
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: for forty years people have been saying, including friends of

643
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: mine who have followed the case, DiSalvo is not the

644
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: person who did this. And in ninety six I told

645
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: you there's an author named Susan Kelly who it sounds

646
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: like I need to get onto my other show, who

647
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: wrote The Boston Stranglers. Her theory was that multiple people

648
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: committed the crimes that Albert took credit for, but that

649
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: the police believe strongly at least the first four older

650
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: women could have been and probably were committed by the

651
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: same person.

652
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: So this author is saying that the homicide victims that

653
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: have been attributed to this Boston strangler, there's actually multiple

654
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 2: offenders that committed some of the crimes first full or

655
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: to one offender, maybe Sophie a different Okay.

656
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's based on age or the

657
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: gap in between her Sophie in the in the first

658
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: set of women, or what.

659
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 2: You know. I've I've personally experienced, you know, thinking that

660
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: you know, a whole bunch of cases were committed by

661
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 2: one offender and digging into those you know, ultimately showed

662
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 2: that multiple offenders we were at work, so it's not

663
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 2: outside the realm of possibility. I'm just thinking about the

664
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: details across the cases, and I believe it was what

665
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 2: eleven cases attributed to Boston strangler.

666
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

667
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: I think the details and the behaviors that the offender

668
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: is exhibiting suggests it fairly strongly that it's probably a

669
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: single offender. I don't think I could say that with

670
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: one hundred percent certainty, but that's my thought just based

671
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: off of, you know, listening to the details. That might

672
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: change if I were to actually take a look, you know,

673
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 2: at the various crimes and see if there's if they

674
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: seem as consistent to my eyes as as what I'm hearing.

675
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 2: But this is where, you know, my hope is is

676
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 2: that you have some DNA results and let's see where

677
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: that points, right.

678
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: Let's get to it, Okay, So in two thousand and one,

679
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: so put your mind on the timeline of DNA two

680
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: thousand and one, investigators compare a sample of mitochondrial DNA

681
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: from Albert's brother to a sample of what is believed

682
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 1: to be semen taken off of Mary Sullivan's body. Mary

683
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 1: Sullivan is the last victim. She's the one that had

684
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: the Happy New Year, and they obviously were able to

685
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: find semen present somewhere.

686
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 2: It's just interesting that they're relying on mitochondrial DNA. Tells

687
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: me that they don't have a reference standard from DeSalvo,

688
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: and so you know, my question of course would be

689
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: was he buried, was he cremated? Why go to the

690
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: using my which you know is inherited along the maternal

691
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: side of a family, It's passed down through the mother's side.

692
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: If it is the same as the semen off of Mary,

693
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: then the next step should be dig Albert up and

694
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: do a direct comparison because multiple people possess that same

695
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 2: hedochondrial DNA.

696
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: Well, it's negative from two thousand and one. But luckily

697
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 1: people have your idea because now we're in twenty thirteen

698
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: and they send a different sample from Mary Sullivan is

699
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: tested first against DNA taken from a water bottle from

700
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: one of Dessalvo's relatives. No match, so hold on. They

701
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: go ahead and Azuma's body, thank goodness, he was not cremated.

702
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: They didn't egxzum. His body DNA is found to be

703
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: a match from Mary Sullivan. The final victim of what's

704
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: believed to be the Boston Strangler, and what the forensic

705
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: scientists who conducted the first comparison in two thousand and

706
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: one says was he wasn't given the same sample that

707
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,919
Speaker 1: was tested in twenty thirteen. I think it's just the technology, right,

708
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: I mean, he's saying, I didn't screw this up. Somebody

709
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: else did.

710
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 2: We don't know enough about this last victim, Mary, you know,

711
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 2: did she have any consentual partners? You know, could she

712
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 2: have a semen that was collected during the processing that

713
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: was from you know, a consensual partner and not from

714
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: the killer. But now that you and so this the mido,

715
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: you know, part of the problem with that is going

716
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: to be is this brother truly the biologic brother of

717
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: Albert de Salvo, you know, and that could cause things

718
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 2: to be negative, But that's irrelevant at this point. Now

719
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 2: you have semen from Albert de Salvo off of Mary's body,

720
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: proven by DNA. Okay, so this now suggests Okay, I'm

721
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: now thinking, yeah, DeSalvo's the Boston Strangler. He's responsible for

722
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: the entirety of the series unless there's other deal that

723
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 2: differentiates it. But is he truly the measuring man and

724
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: the green man. You know, That's what's throwing me is

725
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: such disparate types of offenders. If DeSalvo's committing all these

726
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 2: crimes at the same time, I mean, that is showing

727
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 2: White a wide range of behaviors that he's exhibiting over

728
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 2: the course of this two year period.

729
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting I was reading about so the

730
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: used Department of Justice has a write up about what

731
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: they did, the funding that they used, and you know

732
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: all of that, and they used one of Disalvo's a femur,

733
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: and extracted DNA from a femur and three teeth to

734
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: get the match. So you know, with Mary Sullivan, would

735
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: they not have had DNA from the other cases that

736
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: they say had DNA? I wonder if they were going

737
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,280
Speaker 1: to if they're just assuming that if he killed her,

738
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: that he was responsible for the whole series.

739
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: No, I think if they still have the evidence from

740
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: the other cases in which they were semen identified, I

741
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 2: think you have to go after that.

742
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: Okay, here it is Paul, and this is what answers

743
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: my question. They went on a search, so they've been looking.

744
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: They went on a search for any other evidence that

745
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: might contain DeSalvo's DNA in the Boston shrangler cases. And

746
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 1: they said that everywhere they looked that had suitable samples,

747
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: like the Department of Corrections or Massachusetts State Police, they

748
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: didn't have samples that would work for them, is what

749
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: it says. So it sounds like they've searched out and

750
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: could not find any other sample that would work in

751
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 1: any of these other cases. So you feel like we

752
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 1: could presume that perhaps, you know, DeSalvo is responsible for

753
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: all of them, if he's responsible for Mary Sullivan.

754
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: Well, I think, well, two things. When you said that

755
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 2: they were searching like Department of Corrections looking for a

756
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: suitable sample, that sounds like they were looking for a

757
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: reference standard for DeSalvo.

758
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: You're right, Yeah, you're right.

759
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 2: So they in essence, they exhausted what they could before

760
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 2: getting the exhumation order, but they went and got direct

761
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: sample from his remains, and it matches the semen sample

762
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 2: from Mary. Now did the semen from Mary? Were those

763
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 2: both from the same donor the blanket and from her body?

764
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: It sounds like yes, okay, And then they both matched

765
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 1: to sal though.

766
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 2: She's the one that had the Happy New Year's card

767
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 2: by her foot. And the stocking strangled with stocking, you know,

768
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: with the details, I think all of those cases are related.

769
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 2: Now this is where I've been burned by that in

770
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: the past, you know. So they, from my perspective, need

771
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 2: to do whatever they can to track down potential DNA

772
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 2: evidence from any of these other cases and see if

773
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 2: it's all de Salvo.

774
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: They went through. It seems like every avenue. I'm just

775
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: pulling out details I think are interesting. They used a

776
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: sample of his DNA that was on a letter that

777
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: he had sent. They you know, followed members of his family,

778
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 1: as I had said before, and tested several times before

779
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: they got a judge to agree to Zuma's body. They

780
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: have a family attorney the d Salvo family, and she says, well,

781
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: just because the DNA is on her body doesn't mean

782
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: there's not enough proof that he killed her. I mean,

783
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: the attorney says, I have not read this anywhere else.

784
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: But the family attorney says that the sperm that came

785
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: from her mouth was consistent with DeSalvo, her client, But

786
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: there was sperm recovered from her pubic area that was

787
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: not a match for d Salvo. She's saying, so he

788
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: could have had sex with them or raped them and

789
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: didn't kill them. I don't know. I mean, this is

790
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: just it's so interesting how all of this goes. But

791
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: they're very Dsalva's family kind of wants all this to stop,

792
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: is what it sounds like to me.

793
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: You know, first, it's not uncommon to find different DNA

794
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 2: donors from victims just because they have a life, you know,

795
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: And so this is where it's evaluating the sample as

796
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: to what one is, you know, likely from the offender.

797
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: The DNA evidence is I think is very strong that

798
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 2: DeSalvo is Mary's killer, and then you know, the circumstances

799
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 2: suggest that he's also responsible for the ten other victims

800
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,959
Speaker 2: attributed to the strangler. I just don't think I would

801
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: want to dismiss pursuing DNA from those those other cases.

802
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: I think you have to do it in order to

803
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 2: show that, yes, he is responsible for the entirety of

804
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: this series.

805
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: And I can't see whether they've done that or not.

806
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that they wouldn't.

807
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 2: But it's a money issue too. When you think about

808
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: it from law enforcement perspective, is that, well, nobody's ever

809
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: going to be prosecuted, right the guy's dead. The money

810
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 2: side there, they're operating. Budget is finite, and so why

811
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: spend the money where we can spend it on other

812
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: casework to solve other cases? Right? But from a I

813
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: think from a do diligence for this particular series, it's

814
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: such a high profile series. Is that? Okay, let's see

815
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 2: if there is funding available somewhere in order to be

816
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 2: able to in essence close the door with you know,

817
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 2: a final answer, is DeSalvo truly responsible for all eleven victims?

818
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,479
Speaker 2: Or did he have a one off? I know he's

819
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 2: I'm confident he killed Mary the last one. Yeah, you know,

820
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 2: and then you have somebody else that escaped justice.

821
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: Well, I would be remiss to say that sort of

822
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,240
Speaker 1: there's floating out there another theory that Albert's former cellmate,

823
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: George Nasa, the one he confessed to, is the actual

824
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: Boston strangler. So George has a lawyer you may have

825
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: never heard of before named E. Flee Bailey who secures

826
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,720
Speaker 1: a very famous and I mean I for my generation

827
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: it would be O. J. Simpson, But for previous generations, God,

828
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: who else is he represented? I mean just huge people? Oh,

829
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: Sam Shepherd, that's one of the big ones that I

830
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 1: and I know there are more, that's right, yep, Okay.

831
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 1: So Efleie Bailey had secured a book deal and he

832
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: was representing both Albert and George, and George was in

833
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: prison for two murders that I can tell you have

834
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: zero to do with anything that happened with the Boston Strangler.

835
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: Nothing at all, no sexual component of women even involved

836
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: with this. So the theory is that George coached Albert

837
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: on what to say so that he knew the details.

838
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: If George is the Boston Strangler, he could feed Albert

839
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: some of these details because you know he is the

840
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: Boston Strangler, and that you know, he could say there

841
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: were some things that weren't shared with the press, and

842
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: here are those things to legitimize himself. Obviously, if that

843
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: were true, didn't work because DeSalvo didn't convince anybody. But

844
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: George denied until his death in twenty eighteen that he

845
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: was a Boston strangler. There's a biographer in twenty twenty

846
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: four who said that he thought he was George's biographer,

847
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: saying the guy was out there. He was on parole

848
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: when all of these cases happened. But it seems pretty

849
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,919
Speaker 1: undeniable about Dissalvo being connected to Mary Sullivan, no matter

850
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: what the family attorney might say.

851
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean, you're not finding Nasser's DNA on Mary.

852
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 2: You're finding Disalvo's DNA on Mary. I mean that's to me,

853
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 2: that's a no brainer. It's just yeah, you know, and

854
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 2: evaluating the entirety of the cases attributed to DeSalvo, I

855
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 2: think that's that's a fascinating study. You know, this is

856
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 2: where I'd want to know more details about the cases

857
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 2: of the Measuring Man the green Man, to see is

858
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 2: there actual behavioral indicators that show that are consistent with

859
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 2: the Boston Strangler, because you know, right now, the way

860
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 2: I understand each of those series is that it really

861
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: is very disparate in terms of, you know, what the

862
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 2: offender is doing in these cases. And this from my perspective,

863
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 2: it is like, oh, that's interesting. You know, for an

864
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: offender committing the types of Boston Strangler homicides, with the

865
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: behaviors he's exhibiting, there can also almost de escalate and

866
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 2: commit these other almost silly type crimes. That would be

867
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 2: a fascinating study. And I'm assuming that I know they

868
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: interviewed DiSalvo for a couple of weeks but do they

869
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 2: have the recordings of those interviews.

870
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. I haven't read that. I mean, that's

871
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 1: something we would have to dig into. And also, you know,

872
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: just to make make sure we're clear that the strangler

873
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: killings ended in January of sixty four there and there's

874
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: a break and the sexual crimes a measuring man come

875
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: up in May. So it's almost like if it's DiSalvo

876
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: for all of us it is. It's weird. It's a

877
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: clean break and then a totally different set of crimes.

878
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's where you know that I think for

879
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 2: me to be convinced that to Salvo is both the

880
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: measuring man as well as the boss and strangler, you know,

881
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 2: I need to know the details about the measuring man.

882
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 2: That's it's it's like, Okay, I'm pretty convinced to Salvo's

883
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 2: a strangler based on the DNA and as responsible for

884
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 2: all eleven of those homicides. Is he really the measuring

885
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 2: man or did they get the wrong guy on that?

886
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 2: And if he really is, and to me, that's a

887
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 2: fascinating study of an offender who in essence de escalates

888
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: and starts committing another series where he's groping women.

889
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: Well, listen, it could be something that we look at

890
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:38,399
Speaker 1: and you make phone calls and you're good at those

891
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: and seeing what's left of the measuring man. Are there

892
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: Is there any stuff that's been collected, you know, from

893
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,720
Speaker 1: the measuring man or from the green man for that matter.

894
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and that's that's really what it would take.

895
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 2: Is there DNA from any of those cases, Well, it

896
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like those cases are of the type and

897
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 2: which the agency would have kept the evidence to maybe

898
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: get you know, the true DNA based answer is probably

899
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 2: not possible, But most certainly I think the disparate nature

900
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: of the types of cases in each series is very

901
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 2: interesting to me.

902
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 1: Well, listen, the victims of the measuring man in the

903
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,720
Speaker 1: Green Man are likely many of them are likely still alive.

904
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 1: If you're talking about women in their twenties, they would

905
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 1: have been born in the forties, you know, I mean

906
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: that would be my mom's age seventies eighties. So if

907
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: one of them had looked at the news and saw

908
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: everything about DeSalvo and said to the police or said

909
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: to you, this is the guy. He is the measuring man.

910
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 1: I know the trauma that women who are experiencing sexual

911
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: assault go through. Is it dependent on not the credibility

912
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 1: of the woman, But I mean, how do we know

913
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: that the trauma hasn't taken over and she sees his

914
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: photo and she puts them together. Would that be convincing

915
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 1: to you if one of these women said, I know

916
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: it's DiSalvo. You know who grow to me?

917
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 2: You know, I think that would be hard. Just because

918
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 2: of the high profile nature of DeSalvo being out there

919
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 2: and the elasticity of human memory, it would not surprise

920
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: me that there could be measuring man victims who saw

921
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 2: Desalva and go that's the guy, but never never called

922
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 2: in law enforcement to say yep, but maybe they had

923
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: some of these victims testify.

924
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: The serial killer cases, of course, are really fascinating to me,

925
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: and there were different things about the Richard Cottingham case

926
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: than this case. These are sort of in the I

927
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: know Cottingham was with seventies, but you know, we're still

928
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: seeing similarities and differences. So I learned a lot from

929
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: these cases. But they're overwhelming, and it's sad at the

930
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: very end.

931
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: For me.

932
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 1: It's always sad to think about all of these women,

933
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: you know, and whether or not who is responsible will

934
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: never be brought to justice if we think it's Di

935
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: Salvo or probably anybody at this point, but still to

936
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: not know what happened definitively, I know must be difficult.

937
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 1: So I'm glad one family has an answer, the Sullivan family.

938
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 2: When you say it's sad, what always strikes me is

939
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 2: that you have innocent people whose lives were taken away

940
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 2: in brutal fashion, and for what reason. It's for the

941
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 2: self gratification of the offender, and it's a very selfish

942
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 2: type of crime. It's always frustrating to have cases like

943
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 2: this that are not answered.

944
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: I agree. I'm done with Boston for now. I've had

945
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 1: enough of Albert DeSalvo and all of this stuff. But

946
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: next week we'll have a very different case, I am

947
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: quite sure, and I'll be excited to bring it to you.

948
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 2: Okay, well, once again, I'm looking forward to it me too.

949
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

950
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

951
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

952
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

953
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

954
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

955
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

956
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,720
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

957
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

958
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

959
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

960
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

961
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

962
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

963
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

964
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

965
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