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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Work in Progress with Somartes, and Happy New Year.

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Speaker 1: I could not be more excited to be kicking off

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four with today's guest, none other than CNN's

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Speaker 1: Laura Coates. Laura is not only one of my favorite journalists,

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Speaker 1: she is one of the most impressive people I know.

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Speaker 1: Having graduated from Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public

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Speaker 1: and International Affairs and the University of Minnesota Law School.

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Speaker 1: Before beginning her legal career in private practice, Laura transitioned

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Speaker 1: into the United States Department of Justice, thriving as a

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Speaker 1: federal prosecutor. She served as a trial attorney in the

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Speaker 1: Civil Rights Division of the DOJ during the Bush and

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Speaker 1: Obama administrations. She specialized in the enforcement of voting rights

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Speaker 1: throughout the country, and since twenty sixteen, she has served

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Speaker 1: as an analyst for As of last year, she anchors

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Speaker 1: her own show called Laura Coates Live. She serves as

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Speaker 1: the network's chief legal analyst. She hosts The Laura Coats

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Speaker 1: Show on Series XM, and last year published an incredible

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Speaker 1: book called Just Pursuit. Laura is I mean, clearly one

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Speaker 1: of the most inspiring people we've probably ever had on

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Speaker 1: the show. And one of the things I admire so

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Speaker 1: much about her is that she takes all of her

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Speaker 1: expertise and humanizes the worlds of journalism and the law.

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Speaker 1: She is an advocate for the most vulnerable among us.

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Speaker 1: She is open about the fact that pursuing justice is

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Speaker 1: complicated because the pursuit of justice often creates injustice. And

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Speaker 1: she approaches these conversations with you and me and everyone

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Speaker 1: in her audience as a mom, as a black woman

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Speaker 1: in these industries. She talks about these identities and invites

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Speaker 1: us to examine our own. I am so enamored with her,

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Speaker 1: have the biggest brain crush on her, and honestly, I

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Speaker 1: just want to be her friend. And after today you

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Speaker 1: will too. Enjoy Laura. I'm so excited to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time for our

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Speaker 1: friends at home. You all know that I am a

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Speaker 1: journalism junkie. So to kick off twenty twenty four, the

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Speaker 1: day that we're recording happens to be January second, with you,

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Speaker 1: my like, my brain is crushing so hard and I'm

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Speaker 1: just so excited to chat with you today.

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Speaker 2: I am too. I am such a fan of yours

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Speaker 2: and your work and the podcast. So I'm thrilled to

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Speaker 2: have this chance. And maybe we'll start the whole new

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Speaker 2: year off rite and everyone I talk to I'll love

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Speaker 2: talking to. Maybe I'll cross my fingers and toes and

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Speaker 2: I'll be the case.

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Speaker 1: I like that.

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Speaker 2: I like that vibe.

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Speaker 1: I think if we're going to set the new year

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Speaker 1: off with smart women who who care about community, who

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Speaker 1: also are like fun to hang out with, if that's

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Speaker 1: my vibe for twenty twenty four, I really feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm nailing it.

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Speaker 2: I look if this can replace my gym resolution. I

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Speaker 2: am with you like I love a good smart, fun

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Speaker 2: women done. Not a plank is in sight? Thank you?

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Speaker 2: So great.

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Speaker 1: Great, we'll trade the planks for plates. We'll like break

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Speaker 1: some bread, we'll have some chats. It'll be nice.

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Speaker 2: But none of that girl dinner that I keep hearing about,

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Speaker 2: which is basically like college for me.

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Speaker 1: So it's fine, right, Okay, Yeah, we're doing whatever, like

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Speaker 1: the chic grown up version of that is.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, I'm in let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, as we look, as we look forward to

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Speaker 1: hopefully all of the good things that this year will

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Speaker 1: bring us to, you know, combat the stress of it

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Speaker 1: being an election year. I can't believe we're back here.

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Speaker 1: The irony is that my first question I love to

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Speaker 1: ask people is actually always about going back, because when

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Speaker 1: I get to sit opposite from someone such as yourself,

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Speaker 1: you have this, you know, incredible life and career, and

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Speaker 1: your resume is wild, and you're you know, a journalist

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Speaker 1: and an author and a former lawyer, and I mean

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Speaker 1: it's like it goes. The accolades go on and on.

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Speaker 1: But I'm always really curious about how people who I

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Speaker 1: admire so much in their adulthood became these amazing humans.

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Speaker 1: So if we rewind and we meet little Laura at

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Speaker 1: you know, eight or nine years old, were you curious

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Speaker 1: and verbose and obsessed with justice as a child or

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Speaker 1: were you a completely you know, different version of yourself

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Speaker 1: that in hindsight makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Well, first, thank you, and I'm going to anything you

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Speaker 2: said is true just now for the sake of my

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Speaker 2: ego for our mother, because that's true human. But I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to be so thank you for that. And it's

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Speaker 2: actually kind of funny because I actually have a nine

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Speaker 2: year old daughter who truly is my mini me, so

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Speaker 2: not that hard to imagine myself. That's a younger version,

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Speaker 2: but I had to. Although she's better than I ever was,

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Speaker 2: and I hope to be better than I ever will be,

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Speaker 2: because that's how you everyone thinks about their kids. But

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Speaker 2: I gotta say I was always a really talkative, curious

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Speaker 2: Some would say nosy, but I was curious and inquisitive

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Speaker 2: and precocious sort of kid. I always thought like I

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Speaker 2: was at the adult table, even though I was clearly

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Speaker 2: at the little kid table. But I was always really chatty.

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Speaker 2: I was always really Every one of my school reviews,

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Speaker 2: I can tell you right now was like, all right,

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Speaker 2: she's smart, if only she would stop talking in class,

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Speaker 2: and that would be the thing. But I think that

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Speaker 2: I was always really kind of shore footed in some respects.

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Speaker 2: I was. I was very confident child, mostly because I

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Speaker 2: had two older sisters who were so wonderful still are

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Speaker 2: so wonderful, still are my best friends, and very much so.

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Speaker 2: Came from a family where my parents instilled in us

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Speaker 2: that each of our opinions wasn't always right, but was

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Speaker 2: important to voice. And so we had this thing called

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Speaker 2: the Coat's Corporation, and my parents would invite us into

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Speaker 2: their you know, businesses or conversations and sort of give

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Speaker 2: us all rule or roles. I was called the resident

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Speaker 2: potato peeler, which is not really that flattering looking back. Fine,

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Speaker 2: I like potatoes, I could feel ump, that's fine. But

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Speaker 2: they would ask like, what's your opinion or what do

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Speaker 2: you think about something? And as a young kid, having

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Speaker 2: someone sort of look to you that you admired and

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Speaker 2: respected want to hear from you was really invaluable for me.

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Speaker 2: And it's at a very wonderful tone, I can't say

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Speaker 2: that throughout my whole life, I didn't have imposter syndrome.

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Speaker 2: I was, as you know, insecure as the next person

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Speaker 2: at different things. I was as confident as the next person.

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Speaker 2: But one thing I was always really sure of was

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Speaker 2: that I had every right to speak my mind. Funny enough, though,

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Speaker 2: that manifested differently. I almost as a kid, I had

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Speaker 2: a really bad stutter, and so I wanted to get

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Speaker 2: everything out so quickly, and it made me more self

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Speaker 2: conscious when I spoke, And so that was one thing

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Speaker 2: that was different than now. But in some ways, I'm

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Speaker 2: still very much the little kid who's like what I

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Speaker 2: say is important, I want to get it out right now,

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Speaker 2: but having to slow myself down to do it. MM.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting. You said that that you had a

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Speaker 1: sutter as a kid, and my brain went just like

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Speaker 1: the president, just like yes, yeah, but like my inner

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Speaker 1: little kid was like, it's okay.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there you go. See it's I mean, maybe I'll

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Speaker 2: be on a ballot one day as a result. Oh

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Speaker 2: I mean, I tell you not now, who knows. But

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Speaker 2: I feel like it's so funny how many former stutters

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Speaker 2: I meet in current stutterers, if that's the phrase to use,

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Speaker 2: only because I feel like there's just so many people

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Speaker 2: who have so much to say and sometimes don't feel

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Speaker 2: like people either had the attention span to listen to

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Speaker 2: them or are not secure that people will think that

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Speaker 2: what they have to say is worth the weight. And

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Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people that can be

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Speaker 2: part of the cause.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, you bring up

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Speaker 1: such a great point and its vulnerability so many I

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Speaker 1: think so many of us who lead any sort of

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Speaker 1: public facing life or have any sort of public facing

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Speaker 1: career struggle with imposter syndrome because you look around and

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Speaker 1: you go, well, look at all these impressive people in

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Speaker 1: the room and on this set and in this place,

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Speaker 1: And what do I really have to contribute but that

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Speaker 1: sort of ethos from your family that you cannot assume

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Speaker 1: that you're right, but your opinion is always valid. You

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Speaker 1: should always be heard that I love the both and

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Speaker 1: of that, because it's really about holding two things to

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Speaker 1: be true at the same time. You deserve to speak

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Speaker 1: your mind and you have to make room to be

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Speaker 1: right or wrong. You have to make room for other

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Speaker 1: people to speak their minds too. And what a special

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Speaker 1: thing that is to give to a child. I wonder if,

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Speaker 1: looking back, that encouragement from them has been part of

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Speaker 1: what's helped you battle your imposter syndrome.

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Speaker 2: Do you think, Oh, of course, I mean I think. Look,

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Speaker 2: if I do say so myself, I look younger than some.

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Speaker 2: I look young sometimes in general. Other times I look

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Speaker 2: around and I'm like, wait, so no one else here

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Speaker 2: was born in the eighties. Okay, that's why I could

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Speaker 2: do nineties vie. That's okay. But I look around sometimes,

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Speaker 2: and certainly, especially in the law. You know, whether it

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Speaker 2: was in a courtroom, whether it was doing appeals, whether

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Speaker 2: it was as a prosecutor. Sometimes you would find yourself

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Speaker 2: in rooms where people had to give you the benefit

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Speaker 2: of doubt, and oftentimes they did not be oftentimes assumed

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Speaker 2: that you were there for and other than merit, or

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Speaker 2: that you were there but you had so much more

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Speaker 2: to learn than them, and so you had to almost

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Speaker 2: shield yourself with armor and a bit of bravado to

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Speaker 2: make sure at phrase, fake it till you make it

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Speaker 2: like no, it was for me. You know, never have

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Speaker 2: to fake it. Just create the opportunities for yourself where

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Speaker 2: you can be at ease with your intellect and in

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Speaker 2: your spaces. And that some of that worked out really

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Speaker 2: well other times, especially now. I mean I remember starting

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Speaker 2: out at CNN and talking about Watergate, sitting next to

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Speaker 2: the people who actually were a part of Watergate and

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Speaker 2: being like, well, one of us is not the other

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Speaker 2: at this table, but I know that none of us

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Speaker 2: were here for the Constitution, and I speak about that

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Speaker 2: and don't pat me on the head as I endeavor

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Speaker 2: to do so. So you have to really give yourself

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Speaker 2: that that sort of champion mentality that you'll champion for

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Speaker 2: yourself in those moments. But I have been many a

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Speaker 2: room where I have been doubted, and I have people,

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Speaker 2: you know, not really wanting to give you the full front.

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Speaker 2: I claut when they look you red in the eye

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Speaker 2: and they're receiving the information from you, and or they'll

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Speaker 2: turn to somebody next to you who said the exact

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Speaker 2: same thing and then go, oh, that messenger suits me better.

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Speaker 2: That messenger is someone that I give more credence and

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Speaker 2: authority to. So I'm gonna say that that person said

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Speaker 2: it right.

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Speaker 1: So there's there's.

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Speaker 2: Moments of like ego, but you have to just I mean, Sofia,

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Speaker 2: I have to say, I wear my own jersey in

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Speaker 2: my mind, and I actually have a jersey in my

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Speaker 2: in my house that has coats on the back for

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Speaker 2: my childhood years in a friend of mine gave him

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Speaker 2: in Minnesota, and it says coats on the back. And

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Speaker 2: I will rocket mentally, figuratively literally to go whatever room

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Speaker 2: I'm in if I can cheer for my favorite athlete,

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Speaker 2: if I can cheer for my favorite artist, if I

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Speaker 2: can be a fan girl for this person, or that

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Speaker 2: I can totally for myself because the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: who else is going to unless you do? And sometimes

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Speaker 2: my kids I'll put it on and I'll go, ah, Lord,

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Speaker 2: who messed with mommy today? She's got out of the

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Speaker 2: coaches jersey, and I'm like, I want to know, you

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Speaker 2: don't even want to know. Just let it, yeah, let

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Speaker 2: it not be you. I love that.

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Speaker 1: So if if you take all that wisdom and the

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Speaker 1: skill set that you got from your family that has

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Speaker 1: enabled you to be this woman who knows how to

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Speaker 1: champion herself and who knows how to you know, stand

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Speaker 1: in the power of her intellect in a room. When

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Speaker 1: do you think your interest in the law started? Because

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Speaker 1: what I what I hear you talking about is communication, community, justice,

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Speaker 1: you know, And I think at the root of justice

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Speaker 1: is this idea that all people deserve to be cared

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Speaker 1: for to succeed, you know, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.

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Speaker 1: Where did where did that you know, ability to rock

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Speaker 1: your jersey and to want that for everyone else Where

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Speaker 1: do you see in the timeline of your life that

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Speaker 1: sort of power investing itself in the law, in the

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Speaker 1: justice system. Was there like a clarifying moment or did

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Speaker 1: it evolve over time?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think it's kind of it's behind your childer,

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Speaker 2: I guess the heart on your wall, because sometimes whatever

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Speaker 2: you're calling age, no matter what, you'll end up you'll

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Speaker 2: gravitate towards your passion no matter what you try, as

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Speaker 2: far as you will, which you'll always gravitate there, for

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Speaker 2: better or for worse. And for me, my heart in

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Speaker 2: so many ways is being a voice for people who

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Speaker 2: can't speak for themselves, being a champion for those who

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Speaker 2: can or do not have the opportunity to be so,

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Speaker 2: or just cannot do so. And I was raised. My

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Speaker 2: father grew up in foster care for most of his

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Speaker 2: childhood until he aged of the system. My mother grew

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Speaker 2: up in North Carolina and in Connecticut, where she went

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Speaker 2: north to follow her parents, who served in different households

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Speaker 2: of some very prominent people who later became my clients

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Speaker 2: in the world, an irony of that, but both of

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Speaker 2: whom had to have people who would advocate and champion

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Speaker 2: for them, and in different moments in their lives, were

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Speaker 2: vulnerable and could not necessarily have any choice or anyone

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Speaker 2: who would between them and their backs against the wall.

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Speaker 2: And so for me, I grew up in a house

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Speaker 2: where that was instilled very early and in our lives

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Speaker 2: of what it was like for people, my father in particular,

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Speaker 2: who when you age out of his system, when you're

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Speaker 2: a nineteen fifties nineteen sixties, black boy in Massachusetts, aging

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Speaker 2: out of the system with siblings, with family in the

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Speaker 2: area who could not or did not choose to care

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Speaker 2: for you. What you have to have within you and do,

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Speaker 2: And what a difference it would make in a person's

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Speaker 2: life to have somebody who was ready, willing and able

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Speaker 2: to be that champion and that sort of fork in

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Speaker 2: the road moments in his life and others' lives where

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Speaker 2: the difference was the advocacy, the wherewithal and fortitude to believe,

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Speaker 2: to have faith that somebody, if not yourself, might be

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Speaker 2: willing to help or change. And so for me, that

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Speaker 2: was always growing up what I thought I would get into,

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Speaker 2: that I would be in public service. I did not

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Speaker 2: see prosecution because I thought civil rights work would only

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Speaker 2: require me to do and I did so civil rights

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Speaker 2: work as well, but more in a capacity of policy

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Speaker 2: or activism. And I learned pretty quickly throughout college in

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Speaker 2: particular and law school that my calling was really towards

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Speaker 2: being a voice for those who could not advocate and

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Speaker 2: telling their stories in a way that gave them dignity,

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Speaker 2: in a way that gives them hope, and in a

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Speaker 2: way that gave them an opportunity to have justice and equality,

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Speaker 2: and for me, that avenue was the law. Now interestingly enough,

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Speaker 2: those same feelings I have was what ended me or

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Speaker 2: put me into the world of journalism, the same line

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Speaker 2: of storytelling, of voicing the stories that I care most about.

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Speaker 2: But there was I would say the clarity that I

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Speaker 2: had was the culmination of a childhood being raised by

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Speaker 2: two very strong, will very independent, very wonderful people who

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Speaker 2: needed required and then gave back advocacy and championing for

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Speaker 2: other people.

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Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this

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Speaker 1: show possible. You know, I like to think about the

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Speaker 1: things that inform us. The metaphor that I've come up

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Speaker 1: with for it is what tea have we been steeped in?

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Speaker 1: M That's a good because when you think about that,

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Speaker 1: like the way that a tea bag soaks up everything

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Speaker 1: around it, it just is. It's physics, it's it's culture,

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Speaker 1: it's placed, it's all of these things. And in our country,

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Speaker 1: there's so much that's beautiful about our ideals, but there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of problematic reality, right like when we talk

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Speaker 1: about what America is in her best potential and what

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Speaker 1: the country is in its realistic failing. You know, the

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Speaker 1: fact that we're debating teaching history is crazy to me.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we do live in a country that

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Speaker 1: has been steeped in white supremacy. We live in a

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Speaker 1: country that has been steeped in misogyny. You know, the

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Speaker 1: things you have faced as a woman that I have

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Speaker 1: faced as a woman, the extra layer of the things

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Speaker 1: you face as a black woman. All of this informs

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Speaker 1: to your point, your parents' story, your story, what you see,

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Speaker 1: and what's inspiring to me is when I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: make sense of like a system or what we've grown

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Speaker 1: up in, or how we might pursue justice for a community.

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Speaker 1: I try to think about, like, Okay, if I zoom

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Speaker 1: out to thirty thousand feet, like when you really look

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Speaker 1: from above, where are all the connection points? And the

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Speaker 1: connection points you're talking about drawing as the child of

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Speaker 1: parents who needed and then became those advocates, as a

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Speaker 1: woman who pursued the law and through the stories of people,

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Speaker 1: realized she wanted to lean into journalism, Like you're talking

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Speaker 1: about these thirty thousand foot perspectives of how do I

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Speaker 1: take what I am privileged enough to experience the good

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Speaker 1: and the bad, you know, the beauty and the pain

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Speaker 1: of human existence, and bring people into it in a

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Speaker 1: way that invites, that teaches that, you know, perhaps creates

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Speaker 1: more empathy catharsis ability for us to see each other.

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Speaker 1: And there's such poetry in that. Yeah, and you're talking

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Speaker 1: about the law and the news, like these things that

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Speaker 1: can feel very rigid, but they really are beautiful when

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Speaker 1: I think used to their highest good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The law, really, Sophia, is just the terms on

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Speaker 2: which we interact with each other. It's if the boundaries

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Speaker 2: we decide, the boundaries we keep, and the boundaries we

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Speaker 2: break side, that justice somehow falls along that spectrum. And

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Speaker 2: then of course there's what's right right, there is what's

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Speaker 2: right and just, and what's legal and lawful. These can

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Speaker 2: be podds and conflict with one another often, and so

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Speaker 2: I look at the law as far more fluid than

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Speaker 2: the idea of here's what the statute says, here's what

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Speaker 2: the written text is. It really is how we relate

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Speaker 2: and choose to relate to one another, and what are

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Speaker 2: those terms that we're comfortable with and that we're willing

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Speaker 2: at times. And the instance of maybe a civil disobedience

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Speaker 2: of civil rights era and beyond are breaking or in

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Speaker 2: the legislative body of changing. And when you think of

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Speaker 2: it that way, it really has a human connection to

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Speaker 2: it more than anything else, more than just this rigid

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Speaker 2: Here's how I can punish, and here's how I can prevent.

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Speaker 2: It's also here's how I can exist as a part

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Speaker 2: of this social contract. Here's what we value. You know,

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Speaker 2: people often say, you tell me, you show me your budget,

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you your priorities. Right, you show me what

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Speaker 2: you need, and I'll tell you what you value. You

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Speaker 2: show me the laws that are on the books, and

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you what a society really values. And some

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Speaker 2: of these laws are totally unknown to people. I mean,

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Speaker 2: just right now, this is the first show of the year.

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Speaker 2: It's getting of twenty twenty four. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: new laws that have now been enacted that some you

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Speaker 2: may agree with, some you may not agree with, but

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Speaker 2: they're there. And oftentimes, we as a society unfortunately open

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Speaker 2: under operate under a kind of secrecy where we think

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Speaker 2: the law is supposed to be totally inaccessible, that politics

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Speaker 2: is supposed to be totally for the elite. And if

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Speaker 2: you don't understand the jargon that's being thrown around. You're

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Speaker 2: kind of like, I don't know, an eighty year old

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Speaker 2: trying to communicate through the acronyms of Twitter and Instagram

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Speaker 2: and TikTok that only a certain group of people is

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Speaker 2: eligible to understand the law and the life around us.

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Speaker 2: And I think this just can't be the case, that

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Speaker 2: can't be true. So one of my passions really is

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Speaker 2: to make things accessible. The information itself is activism, not

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Speaker 2: the opinion itself, but the access to the information. And

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Speaker 2: you know, it's funny, I have to borrow when you

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Speaker 2: were talking about tea, which is such a great analogy

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Speaker 2: you raise. I'll borrow this from my friend Michael Eric Dyson,

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Speaker 2: who often says this, and it is stuck with me

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Speaker 2: so much. If you often say, you know, life is

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Speaker 2: kind of like boiling water and the individual people what

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Speaker 2: happens when they're in it. Some people are like an egg.

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Speaker 2: You put the raw egg into the water and it

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Speaker 2: changes who they are inside. By people, you put a

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Speaker 2: carrot in and it becomes soft. Life makes them soft

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden. Or you can be the coffee

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Speaker 2: bean when it goes into the hot water and it

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Speaker 2: creates something powerful and stronger than it was. That keeps

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Speaker 2: everybody woke about you want to be woke or that

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Speaker 2: that's a whole different attitude. But when you think about

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Speaker 2: the tam tell them you got to add Sophia's tea

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Speaker 2: analogy in there too, because what we're steeped in is

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Speaker 2: even more important.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm hmm. And I think I love that. I

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Speaker 1: love that idea of like lean into being coffee, that

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Speaker 1: that feels, that feels exciting.

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Speaker 2: Although I don't drink coffee, I should say that don't.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm like, it would.

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Speaker 2: Be crazy, and I'm a tea drinker. I do do

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Speaker 2: chime caffeine, but I'm okay. If I had coffee, I

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Speaker 2: would be like bouncing off the walls.

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Speaker 1: I just don't think I can survive without it. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's like some you know, generational inheritance

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Speaker 1: thing from my mom's family being Italian, like you.

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Speaker 2: Had no choice.

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Speaker 1: It's like oxygen for me, Like if I don't have

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Speaker 1: an espresso, I don't know. I don't know how to

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Speaker 1: be alive. Could be addiction, but I'm going to romanticize

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Speaker 1: it and be like it's because I'm Italian.

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Speaker 2: We love pasta and coffee. No judgment coming for me. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we all have our things that keep us alive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that's my storytelling bit. But something I find

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Speaker 1: so fascinating is, you know, the the journey that you've

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Speaker 1: been on to tell the truth and to advocate for

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Speaker 1: people and to activate for people. When you when you

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Speaker 1: reference you know, your time at the DOJ and and

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Speaker 1: what it was like to work as a prosecutor, you

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Speaker 1: know it when I when I first really got obsessed

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Speaker 1: with your work, you know, and read your book when

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Speaker 1: it came out last year, Like, there's so much that

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Speaker 1: reminds me. I mean, you're just you're amazing. There's so

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Speaker 1: much that reminds me of the of the sort of

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Speaker 1: ways you are trying to illuminate how these systems work

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Speaker 1: for people. You know that It made me feel a

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Speaker 1: lot like when I first watched Brian Stevenson's Ted Talk

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Speaker 1: back in the day, and he was like really explaining

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Speaker 1: to people the potential that exists in the legal system

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Speaker 1: and what sort of outcomes, particularly prosecutors control for people,

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Speaker 1: and how you can either heal or harm with the

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Speaker 1: letter of the law. And you just talked about this

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Speaker 1: idea that you could be very black and white, and

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Speaker 1: you could punish or you know whatever it might be

434
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: like to the letter, or you could figure out how

435
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: to change community. And you talk about how within a

436
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: system as an advocate, as a lawyer, it is really

437
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,959
Speaker 1: hard when you see the writing on the wall that

438
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: the pursuit of justice often creates in justice. You talk

439
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: about this that these systems and we know this from

440
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: social science data and the research and all of the

441
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: health outcomes, the public health outcomes. We know that these

442
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: systems do not act. You know, it's not a blind

443
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: taste test for people. That there are outcomes that are

444
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: unfairly and differently sort of put upon groups of people.

445
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 1: In our populous black and brown people suffer in ways

446
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: that folks who look like me just don't. Very often

447
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: at the hands of a justice system. You know, they're police.

448
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 1: These communities are policed differently, they're prosecuted differently, they're judged differently.

449
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: And I'm curious, how, as the again that the advocate

450
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: legal mind that that you are, how did that aha

451
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: moment hit you in the system and and and did

452
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: it Because I'm just curious in the in the line,

453
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: I'm curious in the timeline for the folks at home

454
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 1: who haven't read the book. Did it did that illuminate

455
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: for you in private practice and then make you want

456
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: to go into the justice department or was it something

457
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: that as you went into the justice department changed your

458
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: like that experience changed your awareness.

459
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: I have to say I began in private practice and

460
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 2: I thought that I was as knowledgeable as you ought

461
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: to be in the practice of law. But when I

462
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: hit the justice department, I realized a level of professional

463
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 2: naida ta that was completely foreign to me. Wow. It

464
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: wasn't that I didn't understand the concepts, or that I

465
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 2: failed to understand evidential rules or hears there, or you know,

466
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: the mechanics of trying cases. I do that I was

467
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 2: ill prepared for what the sociological aspect of the criminal

468
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: justice system entailed. First of all, I maybe prosecuted hundreds

469
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: and hundreds of cases I saw or had a hand

470
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: in perhaps a thousand, and I can tell you on

471
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 2: one hand the number of non black or brown defendants

472
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: I even saw.

473
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: Wow.

474
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: And it wasn't that this was white officers targeting people

475
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 2: of color. This was a majority black police force that

476
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: I would encounter as well. And so the dynamic of that,

477
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 2: the dynamic of a parade of people who are coming

478
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 2: in and out of a courtroom, children to the elderly,

479
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,479
Speaker 2: you know, having this tension with the system and the

480
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:45,360
Speaker 2: concept of justice, being a black woman, having my allegiance

481
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 2: to my community questioned by virtue of being in the

482
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 2: space occupied by the quote unquote man. Whatever that looks like.

483
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 2: It usually didn't look like the five foot, free and

484
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: app black women that I am right. But whoever I

485
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: thought the man ought to be I was never that person.

486
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: And so it was always this idea, well, how can

487
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 2: you be a prosecutor and believe in civil rights? How

488
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 2: can you be a prosecutor and believe inequality? Now that

489
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: says volumes for people that people believe. You can either

490
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: be a prosecutor, which has such a tremendous amount of power.

491
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: I mean, all the decisions are made by the time

492
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: really trial comes around. If you're a defense attorney, and

493
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: more power to you, and we definitely need defense attorneys,

494
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: but you have to be reactive to the discretion that

495
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: a prosecutor exercises. By time you get a case, as

496
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 2: a defense attorney, you already know the charges. You have

497
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: nothing you can do about them. You're handed the evidence

498
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: that they're going to give over to you. The arrest

499
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: has been made, the indictment's already issued. All that's left

500
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 2: now is to convince and a jury that your client

501
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: maybe is innocent. There's a huge wait if your name's

502
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: on the other side of the United States versus And

503
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 2: I think that, even though I was well aware of

504
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:04,479
Speaker 2: that power, the ability to wield discretion and at times

505
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: unfettered discretion and unchecked mostly was really shocking to me

506
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 2: because it meant that at the whim or the prejudices

507
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: of an individual prosecutor, someone's life could be changed forever,

508
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: at the level of diligence that they wanted to exercise.

509
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: The amount of times I would have to in the

510
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: courthouse act as an advocate for the defendant, because of course,

511
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: if you say, you know, Laura codes On behalf of

512
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: the people of the United States, that also meant the defendant.

513
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: And there'd be a number of times when the defendant

514
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: did not have adequate counsel to understand what plea they

515
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: were agreeing to, or request that needs to be made

516
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: for the discovery or things like that. But for me,

517
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: a really big moment was, Hey, it was my husband,

518
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: because my husband and I were we're having our young children.

519
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: When I was a prosecutors too, I have a neither

520
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 2: eleven and nine. I can't believe it, but I remember

521
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: my husband would ask me a lot about, you know,

522
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: police brutality cases Mike Brown was happening in Ferguson Trayvon Martin,

523
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: obviously not a victim of actual official law enforcement, but

524
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: the interactions that displayed nonetheless by somebody who tried to

525
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: usurp that role. So many cases were happening, and he

526
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: would often ask me about it, and you know, about

527
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 2: the prosecutor's decision to charge or not charge a case.

528
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: And I find myself kept asking, you know, or keep

529
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: saying from here's why it is, and here's why I'm different,

530
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: and convincing myself that, of course I was nothing like

531
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: those prosecutors who would be involved in that are those

532
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: members of law enforcement. And then his questions became fewer

533
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 2: and further in between over time, until one day he

534
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: calls me out to the car and he says he'd

535
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: been tinkering back there for quite some time, and of

536
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: course yet another Amazon box had arrived. So I didn't

537
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: think anything of it, and he says, I have something

538
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: that I want to show you. I come out so

539
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: begrutulates the car, like, oh god, I weren't stay on

540
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: the couch right now and probably watched the house while

541
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: I was something I was doing. And I come out

542
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 2: and he has installed a camera on our car, and

543
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: I said, oh my god, why don't we need to

544
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: have a camera in my car, Like it's I'm a

545
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: safe driver, what are you doing? And he's kind of

546
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 2: my husband, who's, you know, not a particularly emotional person

547
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: at all, had tears in his eyes and he said

548
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: it's it's it's for me, not you. And I said, well,

549
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: what do you mean? And I knew the second the

550
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: question left my mouth about what he was going to say,

551
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: or I was thinking he would, And he said, I

552
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: just wanted if I'm ever pulled over by police, I

553
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: wanted you to know what really happened, and then I

554
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: would never have left you and the kids. And my

555
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: heart like shattered in that movement, because for him, that

556
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: was a love letter to me and also a reflection

557
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: that he thought his own death at the hands of

558
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: police officer was inevitable. And here I was a member

559
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: and a part of the justice system with a muzzle

560
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: where I couldn't talk, I couldn't share to the world

561
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: what was really happening or what could happen. And it

562
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: was one of those moments that I remember thinking, what

563
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: could I do to perhaps selfishly save his life, but

564
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: also to save the life of justice. And it was

565
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: one of those moments that I decided that I was

566
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: going to try something. I'd learned so much, I've seen

567
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: so much, and yet where I was in that space

568
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: was not enough to make the love of my life comfortable,

569
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: safe in any way. So you know, I have a

570
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: son and a daughter, and I just I needed to

571
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: do something. And when I left the Justice Woradhen I

572
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 2: read about this and the different moments attention in the book,

573
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: and you know what it's like to be called on

574
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: to aid in the deportation of someone and what that

575
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: does to the internal conflicts you never expect to have

576
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: in your life. That was when I decided that I

577
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: wanted to go into journalism. I didn't have a background,

578
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: I didn't know what I was doing. I literally when

579
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 2: I left, I was nursing my daughter still, I had

580
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: my kids. My son is eighteen months older. I was

581
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: posted up in a Panera bread sitting by the fire,

582
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: nursing an orange peako t because it was free refills.

583
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 2: I'm poor, I get this down. I'm poor cause I

584
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: just retired from my life and I'm trying to figure

585
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: out what to do next. And Frankully, my husband was

586
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 2: thin and love Ramen. I had to figure it out.

587
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: But I never looked back because I don't know there's something.

588
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: I haven't changed the world by any stretch. At least

589
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 2: I know one foot in front of the other. I

590
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: am illuminating issues that could make somebody think differently about

591
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: how justice could work.

592
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors. I talk a

593
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: lot with friends who are justice minded about this. You

594
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: know that in our twenties we were like, We're going

595
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: to be the generation that saves the world. And then

596
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: you're like, oh wow, really incredible. People have been at

597
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: this for literally hundreds of years. Maybe I need to

598
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: take several seats. I never want to lose the goal, yeah,

599
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: of flipping the scales, But I think the wisdom that

600
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: comes with age and experience is that you have to

601
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: desire something that folks older than us might tell us

602
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: is an unrealistic utopia. But you have to be pragmatic

603
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: enough to make the incremental change that will make our

604
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 1: children's lives better than ours, and that made our lives

605
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: better than our grandparents' lives. You have to be willing

606
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: to do the long work, like real activism, real advocacy,

607
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: real policy change. It's not like the refresh where you

608
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: drag your thumb down and there's eighty new Instagram photos

609
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: to look at nine seconds. It's like long, unsexy dedication

610
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 1: that requires longevity and relationship. And when I hear you

611
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: talk about these sort of watershed moments in your life

612
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: and you say, like, you know, I haven't changed the world.

613
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: I think you've changed a lot of people's worlds. I

614
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: think that's the pragmatic potential to achieve that ideal. Like

615
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 1: every person who has encountered your work or who's read

616
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: your book is changed. That's a big deal.

617
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: Well I well, thank you for that. This is this

618
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: is where you plug the words work in progress. Well,

619
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: this is this is what is right. I mean, this

620
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: is we're all I think in so many ways. Just

621
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: you're a very accomplished woman. You're very ambitious. It's evident.

622
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 2: So there's there is always this goal to check things off,

623
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 2: and to do that, I'm sure for you as long

624
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you've got a lot of things checked off.

625
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 2: So many of us have that that drive in us.

626
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 2: And I think when it comes to justice, and it

627
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 2: comes to issues of of really social importance, whatever your

628
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: conscience is telling you should happen, it's it's more like

629
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 2: the practice of medicine or the practice of law. It's

630
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 2: the practice of advocacy, it's the practice of justice. It's

631
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: the practices. And that's very hard when you want to

632
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: get it done because remember that and we're younger at

633
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 2: the go to like the arcade, the whack a Mole

634
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 2: like I saw one and one pops up. Although I'm

635
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 2: really good at that game, so it don't challenge me.

636
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: But like you're the whole thing, right and at the

637
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 2: end of it, you're like, there's still something else, but yeah,

638
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: just keep going to know, all right, well, hopefully when

639
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: my arm gets tired, there's somebody right next to me

640
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: going I'll literally take the baton, splash mallet and I'll

641
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: keep at it for that next person. And talking about

642
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: keeping us all driven to do it, that's the hard part.

643
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: So something that fascinates me because that's the thing, right, Like,

644
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: when you commit yourself to trying to better your community,

645
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: it is.

646
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 2: Whack the mole.

647
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like you realize, oh, there's not going to be

648
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: a day where we get to the end of this road.

649
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 1: We're like, we're on the road forever and we're dealing

650
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: with what's coming in from these perpendicular streets. Like oh,

651
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: my god, when you talk about that aha moment and

652
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: it crystallizes and it's so personal in that exchange that

653
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: day with your husband, that's really profound and moving to

654
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: listen to. What I want to dig into a little

655
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: bit is that bigger concept of understanding the importance of

656
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: your role as a prosecutor and the fact that from

657
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 1: the outside a lot of people looked at you and said,

658
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: how could you do this? How could you prosecute? You know,

659
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: it's not lost on me that this has been a

660
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: lot of the Vice President's journey where people say, well,

661
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: you know, you worked on the wrong side of the law,

662
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: you know, for your community, and you go, hold on,

663
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: it's actually the prosecutors who can either indefinitely harm a

664
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: life or redirect it. You can create accountability that within

665
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: a society shapes people into better versions of themselves. Or

666
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: you can wield accountability like a hammer and bludgeon folks

667
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: with it, and it will always it will always be

668
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: unfair to some communities more than others. It requires a

669
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: pragmatism to say, I want to wield a gavel, not

670
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 1: a hammer. I want to shift the way the system

671
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: exercises quote justice on people. And I imagine it requires

672
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: an immense amount of fortitude to withstand the kind of

673
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: criticism that comes at you from people who don't necessarily

674
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: know the inner workings of a justice system in the

675
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: way that you even say you were naive to until

676
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: you got to the DOJ. So I guess I'm curious

677
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: going from private practice into the Justice Department, working in

678
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Division, what when you entered it felt

679
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: like your goalposts? What were the things you really wanted

680
00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: to work on? And how did you, as INDIVI Laura,

681
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: how did you sort of know when it was time

682
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: to shift to move on?

683
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 2: Well, it's a great question because there's rarely ever one moment.

684
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: There's almost like a you know, and every for a

685
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 2: nanosecond you find yourself reconfiguring and ingesting. It's like a

686
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 2: watching your eye or a lens of a camera, try

687
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: to focus on something. It's constantly shifting to make sure

688
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: that what you want and what your why is is

689
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 2: in view. And there I would say, you know, when

690
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: you look at the justice system, really it's in some

691
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 2: ways a legal system that we pursue justice and hopefully

692
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: one day we'll catch it. But discretion is something that

693
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: people don't think enough about. We know we want a

694
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: jury of your peers. We know why it's so important

695
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 2: to have a jury of one's peers, because you want

696
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: to be judged by people who maybe have either had

697
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: similar life circumstances, or have perhaps walked half a mile,

698
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: if not a mile, in your shoes, or somebody who

699
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 2: can believe will understand and see the holistic three to

700
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 2: sixty person. We don't think about that same prospect for

701
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 2: those who make charging decisions, though, because that's also where

702
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: it's necessary to have a prosecutor of your peer. Now,

703
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that I'm going to be soft on

704
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 2: crime because I have walked a mile. I may have

705
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 2: walked a mile on your shoes and chose a different direction,

706
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 2: and the laws may tell you that it was very

707
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 2: clear and there's no excuse for the behavior. It doesn't

708
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: mean because you are contemplative and thoughtful about the law

709
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: or the benefit of the doubts or grace, or that

710
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 2: maybe law enforcement got it wrong, or that you can

711
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 2: in the presumption of innocence the point where you're willing

712
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: to question and dot every eye, cross every tee. That

713
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: doesn't make you soft on crime. It makes you alert.

714
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: It makes you hard on the constitution and what it's

715
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: supposed to have and mean for you. And you should

716
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: be there, and I'm naturally skeptical, So that part for

717
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 2: me was easy. But what was difficult was being able

718
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,959
Speaker 2: to keep one's head down and focus and not want

719
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: to defend your every action right because I knew. But

720
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 2: as much as people were cringing at the thought of

721
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: a black woman as a prosecut which by the way,

722
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: there are many of us, but cringing at that thought,

723
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 2: I would look at the victims and say, so, they

724
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: don't get to have somebody who's their champion. The only

725
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: focus is on who is the suspect and defendant. That's

726
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: the only way we judge who ought to get a chance.

727
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: I looked really holensed of the victims and those who

728
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: deserves every bit of championing as those who may have

729
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: been either wrongly accused or overcharged or frankly charged appropriately,

730
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: but a system of justice which only had a punishment

731
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 2: and not a therapeutic and rehabilitation minded view of sentencing.

732
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 2: There's so many moments of it, and so I had

733
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: to tell you. As much as it was difficult for

734
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 2: me to at times reconcile what I thought was right,

735
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: what was lawful, or the criticism, there were so many

736
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: more moments when I knew, without a shadow of a

737
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: doubt that but for me being at having a teet

738
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 2: at table, justice would not have been served, whether it

739
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: was half of the victim or behalf the person who

740
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 2: was charged incorrectly or at all I knew in my heart.

741
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: But that was a conversation much like I. You know,

742
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 2: we all have those moments when you know, I don't

743
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 2: know what your quiet moment to like, or a moment

744
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 2: you might judge or second guess yourself or try to

745
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 2: talk yourself through a moment, whatever that looks like for you.

746
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: When I would have those moments, I had to go

747
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 2: back to the why, why did you want it? Why

748
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 2: are you here? There are far more lucrative options. There

749
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 2: are far more stress less options. There are different places

750
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 2: to do the work you're doing. What was your why?

751
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: So going back to that whine, holding it in my

752
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 2: hands and my heart was how I went through it,

753
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: because you know, you're in an industry where people probably

754
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: just like me, they seek power just to say they

755
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 2: have it. They're working out some childhood issues, right they

756
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 2: and they want to be able to be in this

757
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 2: position to abuse and exploit or be the person that

758
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 2: gets to have to say the thumbs up thumbs down,

759
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: you know, Emperor in the coliseum.

760
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: Yes.

761
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 2: And if that's your why, please don't ever go into

762
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,439
Speaker 2: the practice of law, and please don't ever go into

763
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: the prosecution's office, because that's when injustice will occur. Every

764
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 2: single time. You have to go in with the why.

765
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 2: Because people deserve to have their voices heard. They ought

766
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: to be able to believe that this legal system can

767
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 2: be just and that people have to be able to

768
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 2: know that, you know, no one's above the law. And

769
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: if you don't have people that get that, we failed.

770
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, what a

771
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: profound reminder when you talk about holding that both and

772
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: holding awareness of the immense power that a person in

773
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: the role of prosecutor has over the accused, but also

774
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: the immense responsibility that you have for the person who

775
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 1: was harmed, right and to hold the reality that both

776
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: of those people deserve justice. That requires a lot of

777
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: emotional and moral might to take care of people, you know,

778
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: across the spectrum. And yeah, it's certainly not to care

779
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: across that spectrum is not something that you know, a

780
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: bully would be inherently great at. And so to figure

781
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: out how to get more carrying people into these spaces

782
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: does feel like it is of paramount importance. And when

783
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 1: they're not, you see the sort of tessellations of harm happen.

784
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that one of the things that

785
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,760
Speaker 1: you specialized in was the enforcement of voting rights throughout

786
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: the country, and we have watched people use our elections

787
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: as a bully pulpit. We watch people who do not

788
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: have equity and justice at this sort of core of

789
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 1: their mission work on assassinating voting rights around the country,

790
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: rolling back the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, refusing you know,

791
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: to give it the re upping that it deserved on

792
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: the floor, Like it is very scary to watch that.

793
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: And in the last election, there were so many moves

794
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: made that violated the voting rights of people all across

795
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 1: the country, and in outsized ways violated the voting rights

796
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: of minority groups and people of color. You know, we

797
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: watched people being purged from voter rolls state to state unjustly.

798
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: And not to go doom and gloom, but it is

799
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four and we are, you know, coming into

800
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: an election year. I know so many people worry about

801
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: this stuff but don't exactly know what they can do

802
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: about it. So as the resident expert, you know, are

803
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: you're the only person in this zoom call who been

804
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: at the DJ and as an author and as a journalist,

805
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: is someone who uses her voice to encourage us. How

806
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: do you say to the folks at home? You know,

807
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: these are the things you can do as as the

808
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: election approaches at the end of the year. These are

809
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: the ways you can stand up for your rights and

810
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 1: the rights of people in your community to be able

811
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: to exercise their right to vote. You know, are there

812
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: things we should be looking at and doing this year?

813
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: You know, absolutely? And I think the biggest thing is

814
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: and I know it sounds like a being tongue in cheek,

815
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 2: I'm really not. You have got to stay not tired.

816
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 2: The exhaustion that can set in when you want to

817
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 2: throw up your hands and go, oh, it's all it's

818
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 2: all good, it's all politics, and how exhausting it is,

819
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: and you know there are people who are counting on

820
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 2: they are praying, hoping and guaranteeing you'll be so exhausted

821
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: that you do don't want to show up, be tired.

822
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 2: You want to throw the towel. You want to opt out.

823
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 2: And that's the most dangerous thing you can do is

824
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 2: opt out. You have to really look at the issues,

825
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 2: not as you know, a ping pong where people are

826
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: just trying to give you a whiplash to make you

827
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 2: check out, but really, what do you care about? What

828
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: do you want to see? And then demand that of

829
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 2: the platforms of what they're talking about. So many politicians

830
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 2: and candidates in particular distract They want to get these

831
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 2: ten thousand foot views, and you want to know about

832
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: what's in front of you. One of the most selfish

833
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 2: times of your life, and one of the most selfless

834
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: times of your life is when you're in the voting booth.

835
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 2: Right you're there one you want to care about, what

836
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 2: you can personally want to see and also what ought

837
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 2: to be in a world you want to operate in,

838
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 2: and those things can sometimes be difficult to reconcile or

839
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: very easy. Any event, you have to be able to

840
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: lean in. You have to figure out make a list,

841
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: like I'm a big journal person. I make lists all

842
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: the time. I can't go into a store, but I

843
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: can't even go into home goods anymore because he's by

844
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 2: I don't need this, but I need this. It's pretty,

845
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: the cover is good. I make like lists like what

846
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 2: do I care about? What do I want? And I

847
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 2: try to manifest it. And you manifest it in voting

848
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 2: by figuring out the candidates that are actually saying something

849
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 2: that speaks to you, not what you want to hear,

850
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 2: but actually holding them to it. That's one avoiding exhaustion.

851
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 2: Number two is be very, very vigilant about the voter rolls.

852
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, that's the list that you're on to

853
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 2: figure out whether you're registered and areas of the country

854
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: will take you off if you haven't voted for a

855
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 2: certain amount of time. Others will question the identification. You

856
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: have to prove that you are who you say you

857
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 2: are and also are at the address to make the

858
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: precinct correspond with where you're supposed to be voting. Be

859
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 2: visually about how you're trapped in that system. Shore you're registered,

860
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 2: make sure you know where you're supposed to go. You

861
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 2: have the proper identification, you have the proper paperwork to

862
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: prove whatever you need to do. If you know you're

863
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: not going to be in person, you have to be

864
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 2: proactive about getting an absentee ballot and doing it ahead

865
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 2: of time because what you say matters, and what you

866
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,399
Speaker 2: say is how you vote. And then finally, I would say,

867
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 2: you have to be very vigilant about the powerful people

868
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 2: who don't want you to have any power. And one

869
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: way they do that is slute your voting strength by jerrymandering,

870
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 2: by making sure that whatever voting group you're a part of,

871
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: however you tended to vote. If you're thinking, now, how

872
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: can I make that less powerful? Is it by dissecting

873
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 2: it and chopping it up? Is it by concentrating a

874
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 2: population that I think vote a certain way in one area?

875
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 2: Or is it by changing districts? What can I do

876
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 2: to undermine and delute your power? That's what we have

877
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 2: to say. Pay attention to and most of those things,

878
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 2: everything I just said has nothing to do with how

879
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 2: you vote. That only is the least of a democracy's concerns.

880
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 2: It's being able to do so. Nobody ever guaranteed you

881
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 2: that you get to vote for the winner, right. You

882
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 2: have to have the opportunity, a meaningful opportunity, vote for

883
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 2: your candidate of choice. And every time someone takes that

884
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 2: away from your neighbor, you got to pay attention because

885
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: your door will be knocked done next. So those are

886
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 2: the ways I think you have to really think about it.

887
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 2: And don't think that any of this is in the

888
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 2: rear view mirror. It is in front of you. It

889
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: is down the road unless your.

890
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: Vigilant right, right, And we've got to keep applying the pressure.

891
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: You know something I've one of the things I try

892
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: to talk to a lot of young people about is

893
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: to me, I look at democracy as a verb.

894
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: It is an action.

895
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: It requires consistent interaction, It requires pressure, It requires attention

896
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: because when we get complacent, when we think, oh, we

897
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: won that fight, the people who didn't want us to

898
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: win it in the first place are They're working every

899
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: day to take to take the winds away from us.

900
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: So we really have to maintain our dedication and our

901
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: action around you know, equity, justice, the sort of social

902
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 1: constructs that are meant to support us. And to that end,

903
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: I'm really curious, you know, again, as the woman who

904
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: knows the letter of the law the best, who also

905
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 1: is walking us all through what's happening in the world,

906
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: you know, live on air. By the way, the show

907
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:44,959
Speaker 1: is just so good. And for our friends at home,

908
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 1: I'm sure you all are. But if you are not

909
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 1: watching Laura Coates Live on CNN, get it together. This

910
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: is your homework. As I'm in for twenty twenty four.

911
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: The show is so good and as you're covering what's

912
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: currently happening, you know, we can't not mention that things

913
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: are wild leading into the election. You know, Donald Trump

914
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: has been indicted on I think it's ninety one charges

915
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: now and counting.

916
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 2: It's wild.

917
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: You know, people are talking about the fourteenth Amendment. You

918
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: can't hold office if you've led an insurrection against the

919
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,280
Speaker 1: United States. Colorado has blocked him based on the fourteenth

920
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: Amendment from the ballot, from the primary ballot. Main is

921
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,919
Speaker 1: following steps. You know, some people are saying that this

922
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 1: oxygenates his campaign, that this helps him play victim, helps

923
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 1: him pretend, you know, that he's not of the system.

924
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: Do you think the legal challenge here stands? I mean,

925
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: people say this is what our founding fathers were trying

926
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 1: to protect against, you know, was the enemy from within,

927
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: and other people are saying that this is going to

928
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: bolster his run. What do you think, as both our

929
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 1: journalists and our guests, who is a pro at the

930
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: legal analysis.

931
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 2: Well, you know, interestingly enough, the Constitution did not contemplate

932
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 2: every scenario. I mean, there's limited words, and it didn't

933
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 2: envision everything that we've ever endured as a country. So undationally,

934
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: it did try to resolve a lot of the issues

935
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 2: we talked about today. One of the reasons why what's

936
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 2: going on with the former president Donald Trump is so

937
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 2: interesting and problematic is because there are questions about whether

938
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 2: the Constitution or the Founding fathers even had a solution

939
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 2: in mind. And if they did, is what's happening now

940
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 2: with their google from balance, for example, is that what

941
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 2: they had in mind is the fourteenth Amendment, which is

942
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 2: you know, knowing peop think about the first fourth Amendment,

943
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 2: think about equal protection under the law. That's the synonymous

944
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 2: way people think about the Fourteenth Amendment, there's a little

945
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 2: known clause about Look, you also can't hold office if

946
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 2: you've been engaged in an insurrection. It really was address

947
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 2: to the Civil War and members of the Confederacy who

948
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 2: had gone against the government of the United States the

949
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 2: country I then wanted to maintain or hold office in

950
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 2: the future or in the present. So because that particular

951
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 2: clause does not address and doesn't name the president in particular,

952
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 2: and there are other aspects of the Constitution that talk

953
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 2: about the president in particular, there's one argument to suggest, well,

954
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 2: then obviously the fourteenth Amendment did not actually intend to

955
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 2: include the president, because the frabers would have said that

956
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 2: if they meant that. On the other hand, the Constitution

957
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 2: is found on a number of things that at its

958
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 2: foundation obviously envisioned something else. Another big issue with this,

959
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 2: the legality of the issue, is a concept of due process,

960
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: meaning you know, a notice, an opportunity to be heard.

961
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 2: The way that translates to this discussion, though, so it

962
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 2: really is, well, if I haven't been actually convicted of

963
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 2: an insurrection, then why am I being removed because of

964
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 2: claims of an insurrection? So I have to have the

965
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 2: presumption of innocence and doesn't that carry through? Is something

966
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,800
Speaker 2: I have an actual indictment or a prosecution or a conviction. Well,

967
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 2: Jack Smith, a special counsel in Washington, d C. Who's

968
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 2: in charge of a number of cases, didn't actually charge

969
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 2: Trump with insurrection. He has four charges, none of which

970
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 2: are that. Okay, that's one argument. But a Colorado court

971
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: found that he had engaged in an insurrection. Is that

972
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 2: enough to say, well, I have a judicial finding, that's enough.

973
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 2: But this is why the Supreme Court is going to

974
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 2: be so important, as these are really novel issues that

975
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 2: require a very specific and thorough reading of the Constitution,

976
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 2: of the discussion of surrounding the constitution. Common sense also

977
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 2: plays a part of this.

978
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: Well, you mean the part where we watched it live

979
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: on TV.

980
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 2: I mean that part part of it. Yeah, that's part

981
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 2: of it, too interesting. Yeah, oh, it's details, details out.

982
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 2: But all the attitudes that as running it are how

983
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 2: the courts resolve it. For now. You've got places like

984
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 2: me with the Secretary of State, who's any charge of

985
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 2: elections there says nope, I'm keeping them off the ballot.

986
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: Colorado keeping them off the ballot. When he'll be a

987
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 2: trend in other states. I just don't know. But at

988
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 2: the end of the day, this is why the vigilance

989
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 2: is so important, and why common sense and the law

990
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 2: has to somehow come together make democracy work. And why

991
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 2: right now, you know that phrase a republic if you

992
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 2: can keep it is top to mind.

993
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: Yes, And now a word from our sponsors that I

994
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: really enjoy and I think you will too. I have

995
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: a follow up question to that, because this confuses me

996
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: a bit. It seems like we're doing, you know, for thee,

997
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 1: but not for me. A lot these days in the

998
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: upper echelons of government, because there's this sort of line

999
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: for folks who fall in line behind the former president

1000
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: that you know, the impeachments didn't matter, and all these

1001
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: ways he's broken the law, and you know, him leading

1002
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: an insurrection and calling domestic terrorists very fine people, and

1003
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: all of these things feels crazy. And then at the

1004
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: same time the GOP is admitting in public, I mean,

1005
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: on the record, so many of their elected lawmakers have said, oh,

1006
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:26,919
Speaker 1: there's absolutely no evidence for any wrongdoing on the part

1007
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 1: of our current president Joe Biden, but we're going to

1008
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: lead an impeachment inquiry into him anyway, because it'll make

1009
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: for good TV. And it's wild to me that they

1010
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: can say that and do that and tie up the

1011
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: courts to do that. But though they many of them,

1012
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: have admitted that this is a you know, TV stunt.

1013
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: His son is being investigated for impropriety with his taxes,

1014
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: and there seems to be this double standard where, you know,

1015
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:56,959
Speaker 1: Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump made six hundred and fifty

1016
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: million dollars, you know, while working at the White House

1017
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: and have security clearance that the government said they shouldn't have,

1018
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 1: but Trump gave it to them anyway. And then Hunter

1019
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: Biden doesn't work at the White House and has never

1020
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 1: made nearly that much money, you know, likely allegedly whatever

1021
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: the proper terminology is here, I'm not the lawyer. Please

1022
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: don't come for me, Internet, you know, didn't file his

1023
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: taxes properly, and if he didn't, he's gonna get charged

1024
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: and he's going to owe the government a bunch of money. Fine,

1025
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 1: But how can these sort of double standards with kids

1026
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 1: of the president and then the presidents themselves evidence of

1027
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: wrongdoing versus admittedly no evidence of any wrongdoing at all.

1028
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 1: Why is it like this? Why why do people kind

1029
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: of go, eh, Trump's just a wild card. And then

1030
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: and then hold Biden's feet to the fire whip.

1031
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 2: What do you think that is? Well, I mean, selective

1032
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 2: nepotism cracks me up, like it's it's only okay if

1033
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 2: some people are privileged in this way and can their

1034
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 2: last name. I don't know what to say about that,

1035
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 2: but I will say, when you look at as you said,

1036
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 2: a selective persecution, and when you want to turn a

1037
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 2: blind eye, and when you want to look at it.

1038
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 2: That's why politics can be so frustrating, because it can

1039
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: even be completely forthcoming about your motivation, and for some

1040
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 2: people it doesn't matter. There is an entire identity politically now.

1041
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 2: You know you have Republicans, you have Democrats, and independence.

1042
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 2: I think you have almost a fourth category of people.

1043
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 2: And the fourth category is provocateur or those who are

1044
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 2: just anti or you know what, I've been so frustrated

1045
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 2: with the system that I am going to be the

1046
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:38,439
Speaker 2: anti system, and so whatever that means for them, they'll

1047
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 2: latch onto. I think that what you're seeing with the

1048
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 2: Bidens versus the Kushner's and the Trumps of the world

1049
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 2: versus the impeachment of Trump and impeachment inquiry of Biden,

1050
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 2: I think is really what happens when deflection is at

1051
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 2: its peak, because think of all of the things that

1052
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 2: need to get done right now in Congress, and the

1053
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 2: priorities that are being set, they're not connected with what

1054
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 2: the average person really wants and needs. It is the

1055
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 2: idea of the point being provocation, the point being, you know,

1056
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 2: it's not that there hasn't been some violation of the law,

1057
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 2: and that can happen, and we can, certainly and you

1058
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 2: should ought to look into that and investigate and prosecute

1059
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 2: if appropriate. I stand by that. But if the whole

1060
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 2: point is to muddy the waters and then expect people

1061
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 2: not to thirst for different politicians and candidates, I don't

1062
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 2: know what we can do to drill into people's heads

1063
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 2: that while you're playing at this game, there are people

1064
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 2: who are dying while you're playing around trying to tell

1065
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 2: me that you'd like to inquire and to find out

1066
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 2: if there's a reason to have the inquiry. I can

1067
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 2: give you some inquiries about health care right now to

1068
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 2: be answered, And I think that's what it's incumbent upon

1069
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 2: the voters to dictate the terms for those who asked,

1070
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 2: asked you for the opportunity to lead to represent They

1071
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 2: weren't like you love the Hunger Games, and you don't

1072
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 2: have to like you don't pay tribute all of a

1073
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 2: sudden and whistle in the background, love that series. You

1074
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 2: have to actually have like you have to actually do

1075
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 2: you ask for the chance. Yes, you were at assigned

1076
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 2: the role of representative, asked you asked us to do it.

1077
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 2: So I think people have to just vocalize and voice

1078
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 2: their frustration.

1079
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 1: And that's such a good reminder too, that it really

1080
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 1: can be up to us to show them that these

1081
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 1: distraction tactics and that this sort of smoke in mirror

1082
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 1: show isn't going to distract us if we vote on

1083
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 1: the issues that matter to us reproductive care and access

1084
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: fundamental freedoms healthcare. We can, by voting on the actual issues,

1085
01:03:54,160 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: hopefully slow down or stop the anti train, as you

1086
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 1: you know mentioned it. I'm really excited and honestly, you

1087
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 1: are one of the people who makes me feel relieved

1088
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: that I will have somewhere to go to learn throughout

1089
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four as the election approaches. You know, to

1090
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:13,360
Speaker 1: be able to watch your show, to be able to

1091
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 1: sort of gain wisdom from your analysis. So I want

1092
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 1: to I want to sort of thank you in advance

1093
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: for that.

1094
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:27,280
Speaker 2: And yeah, thank youseration. Beginning people this year I wrote, fine,

1095
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 2: thank you so much.

1096
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: But I just know we're going to get more of

1097
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 1: what you do so well, and I'm grateful for that.

1098
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 1: And I also, you know, I know that so often

1099
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 1: you do get asked about the legal analysis and these

1100
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 1: big issues and what's happening out in the field and

1101
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 1: all of it, and so thank you for giving us

1102
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: your perspective. And I also am just such a fan

1103
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 1: of you as a person, and so I want to

1104
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 1: be able to end on a or get closer to

1105
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 1: wrapping up, I should say, on a more personal note.

1106
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: And I I am just so enamored with the story

1107
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 1: that your son's idol from the Bucks gave him a

1108
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: pair of shoes after a recent game. And I was

1109
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: just wondering, if you know, that's one of the wonderful

1110
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 1: things I think about if you do get to have

1111
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 1: a job in a public field, as you might get

1112
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 1: an amazing moment like that for your kid, And I

1113
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 1: would just love to ask about that. Yeah, so that

1114
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 1: it is an all election, you know, wild political whatever

1115
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: I want to know about the personal stuff too.

1116
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 2: Well, look, you know, first of all, like most most

1117
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 2: of my life is spent mommy, right, that's alka bit.

1118
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 2: So it's funny. It's funny because my kids, like I'm

1119
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 2: like every other mom in our phones, our friends' names

1120
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 2: are saved under who their kid is, like, yeah, Jonah's mom.

1121
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 2: Oh good, Jonah's mom, and that we're doing right. So

1122
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 2: I have moments like that. And so my son is

1123
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 2: a huge Yannis fan and he loved Janice's obviously his game,

1124
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 2: incredible athlete, but he loved his story. He had us

1125
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 2: all sit down and watch the movie about his life,

1126
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 2: story about what his family struggled to do when they

1127
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: were in Greece, about the bond, about hard work, about

1128
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 2: him and his brother sharing a same pair of sneakers

1129
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 2: and not playing at the same time, and just know

1130
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 2: how he became a citizen here and just the entire process.

1131
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 2: And so I was blown away by him as a

1132
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:28,760
Speaker 2: as an athlete. And I'm not somebody who loves hero

1133
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 2: worship for your kids, like you know, I'm very cautious

1134
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 2: about who they seek to emulate or they revere, because well, frankly,

1135
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 2: your heroes can let you down sometimes. So I try

1136
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 2: to help my kids say, look, what qualities do you

1137
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 2: like about a person? Love those, and you know, think

1138
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 2: about the rest. So I had a chance to go

1139
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 2: to Madison Square Garden and I was given tickets. I

1140
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 2: didn't even I shouldn't be on the court. I'm not

1141
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 2: court material people. Okay. So I was saying, as Square

1142
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 2: Garden and I had court side, and we thought, okay,

1143
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 2: we're gonna be able to see. This is amazing. I've

1144
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 2: never really been and I've been to Madison Square Garden,

1145
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 2: but I was in the nosebleed section and happy to

1146
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 2: be there years ago. My son had never gone there.

1147
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 2: He loves the Bucks, and so we sat down and

1148
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, this is an incredible thing.

1149
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 2: And we were just excited to be like, they had

1150
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 2: free hot dogs. We were thrilled. We loved the whole thing.

1151
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1152
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 2: Then we saw the players start to come and we

1153
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 2: were sitting next to the Milwaukee Bucks bench. Of all plazes. Wow,

1154
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 2: my son was cheering. He was going crazy, and he

1155
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 2: had all these little basketball cards laid out, thinking maybe

1156
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 2: I'll get to have one of them sign it. And

1157
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 2: of course I'm liken't ask. We're not autograph. It's a

1158
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,439
Speaker 2: weird thing. We don't. The rules are here, don't do anything.

1159
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 2: I'll play it cool. I'll play cool. And so we're

1160
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 2: sitting there and they're doing the whole celebrity cam and

1161
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 2: all the different celebrities in the rows are highlighted and

1162
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 2: I'm cheering for people I'm fans of, and my son

1163
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 2: is blaser focused on the players and he's given them

1164
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 2: high fives and given them back. The whole is like this,

1165
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 2: and so we thought, this is so exciting. I had

1166
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 2: a there's a towel. I took the towel. I'm like,

1167
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 2: you go have this free towel, et cetera. And I

1168
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 2: am saying, and you can hear in the video, I'm saying,

1169
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 2: thank you someone to give me this towel. And all

1170
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 2: of a sudden, the game is over and Yannis is

1171
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 2: on the court and he motions over to my son

1172
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 2: and says, come here, and my son's like what And

1173
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 2: he gets up wearing the Yannis jersey and I'm like,

1174
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 2: oh my god, my god. I jump over the seats.

1175
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 2: I am the Papa Razi in this. I'm running between

1176
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,240
Speaker 2: the cameras I'm on the court and he is taking

1177
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:38,639
Speaker 2: off his sneakers and my son is grabbing his head

1178
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 2: like his mind is blown. He's trying to keep his

1179
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 2: brain in his head and he's like, oh my god,

1180
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 2: oh my god. And Yannis bends over. He takes off

1181
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:50,240
Speaker 2: his shoes. He says, do you have a sharpie? Now?

1182
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:52,439
Speaker 2: My son had one Gus the basketball car, and he's like,

1183
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 2: have one in my backpack we're somewhere or whatever. He

1184
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:57,599
Speaker 2: was no locket one. He goes and gets a sharpie.

1185
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 2: Yan it's gets a sharpie and shoes and my son

1186
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 2: is I'm bawling, Sophia, Oh my god. I had no

1187
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 2: role in this. It was just the goodness of Yannis

1188
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 2: looking at a kid having a good time of the game.

1189
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 2: He signed the shoes, handsom to him, hogshim, does you

1190
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 2: want to take a picture? And he's like sure, o, hey,

1191
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 2: post for mommy, and I'm like crying and videoing it.

1192
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 2: He says, okay, marry Christis. My son is like, thank

1193
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 2: you so much. And then, of course, because it's me

1194
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 2: and I'm a little bit crazy. After I'm something, I'm like, wait,

1195
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:35,640
Speaker 2: the picture didn't come back. He's like he posted it

1196
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 2: like this, I got it, thank you. And my son

1197
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:45,839
Speaker 2: just turns. He's like, oh, Mom, and I am dying

1198
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 2: because you know, I'm sobbing. I was like, and my son,

1199
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 2: it was so cute. We ended up like the we'd

1200
01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 2: get like security to have a take. They were like,

1201
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 2: don't walk through the crowd, walk behind security shoes. Now

1202
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 2: that I'm out, and I'm like, oh my god, I'm

1203
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 2: wrapping in a towel. I haven't like, I'm basically exposed,

1204
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 2: but I don't fare so I have to make sure

1205
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 2: his works. And so then later on that night, we

1206
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 2: were actually getting back touse. I live in d C.

1207
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 2: We're getting back to d C and my son like

1208
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 2: wakes up from the plane and he goes he's like,

1209
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 2: oh god, mom, Mom, where's your phone? Where's your phone?

1210
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:24,599
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, it's right here. He starts scrolling

1211
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:29,880
Speaker 2: through the phone. He goes, it did happen? Oh my god.

1212
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 2: That was the day before Christmas Eve. And so when

1213
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:36,720
Speaker 2: Christmas came, the presents were there under the tree. You'd

1214
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 2: placed them the night before. Because my kids still pretend

1215
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 2: to indulge me and believe in Santa Claus, whether it's

1216
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 2: or not, I don't know, but they indulge me, and

1217
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 2: he goes, there's presence for me. I already had it.

1218
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1219
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 2: So thank you, honest and bobbay, thank you to all

1220
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 2: the players because they were giving them high fives. And

1221
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:02,639
Speaker 2: and I just know people assume that because maybe they've

1222
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 2: seen me on CNN, that perhaps I had some like

1223
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 2: Marionette like strings pulling in there. I did not. Jannis

1224
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 2: just saw a kid and remembering what it was like

1225
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 2: to be a kid. Yeah, so you imagine who is

1226
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 2: your first Like if you were a kid zafia and

1227
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 2: that person was like, come here, let me talk to

1228
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 2: you and give you a hug. Who wish youdrry Christmas?

1229
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:24,040
Speaker 2: Would you just die?

1230
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:25,640
Speaker 1: Oh for me?

1231
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:28,719
Speaker 2: Oprah? I used to ask my mom.

1232
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 1: I was like, mom, last period at school and by

1233
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 1: the way, I'm an eighties baby too, And I was like,

1234
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 1: last period at school ends at three. Oprah starts at three.

1235
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:39,280
Speaker 1: We're not learning anything at the end of the day,

1236
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: so you should pick me up at two forty five

1237
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 1: so I can have my butt in front of the

1238
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 1: TV by three o'clock so I can learn from Oprah.

1239
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 1: And my mom was like, you are six and a

1240
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 1: half why are we having this converence like you are

1241
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:51,599
Speaker 1: the weirdest kid. I'm not pulling you out of school

1242
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: early so you can watch Oprah. I'm not doing it.

1243
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:56,360
Speaker 1: And so then we like we agreed that my parents

1244
01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:59,040
Speaker 1: would set the VCR for me, like it was a

1245
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 1: whole thing, and as an adult like to have been

1246
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 1: in rooms with her years ago pre pandemic. I was

1247
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 1: invited to one of her gospel brunches at her house

1248
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 1: and I literally dying for you. I stood in front

1249
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 1: of the mirror and I looked at myself and I

1250
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 1: was like, could little you have ever imagined this? Like

1251
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 1: what what is happening? And yeah, I think it's part

1252
01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:29,200
Speaker 1: of the reason that it, Like it makes me sob

1253
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 1: to listen to you tell the story, thinking about that

1254
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 1: experience for you as a mom and what you get

1255
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,000
Speaker 1: to watch, and just that people always have the capacity

1256
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 1: for kindness like that, that's that's magical, that's.

1257
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 2: I mean, that's so first of all, I am loving

1258
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 2: the vision of you trying to get open.

1259
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:49,320
Speaker 1: By the way, this is why my parents can't believe

1260
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:51,680
Speaker 1: I'm not a lawyer. They were like, you negotiated for

1261
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 1: everything always, and I was like, you know.

1262
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:58,640
Speaker 2: What though, I think you're exactly where you look at you.

1263
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 2: You got it, You've got your own show. There you go,

1264
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 2: Sophia is on. That's the whole figure to there you go.

1265
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 2: Just give out some cars and you're gonna be good

1266
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 2: to go all it's all part of it.

1267
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 1: Could you imagine if I was like this week on work.

1268
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 2: In Progress, you get a car, you get a dor.

1269
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:13,600
Speaker 1: I would love it. I would love it.

1270
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:15,720
Speaker 2: You know, I'm going to manifest that for you. That's

1271
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 2: gonna be a great question that that you're that your show,

1272
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 2: your show is going to be the one word all

1273
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 2: of a sudden, and someone right now is going to

1274
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 2: tell their mom or dad, I need you to pick

1275
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 2: me up, becau, I'm not learning anything. Just tell me

1276
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 2: a Sophia show. It's a work in progress, that's what

1277
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 2: we're doing. I applaud it. Twenty twenty more.

1278
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:36,680
Speaker 1: Here she comes you, sweet angel, Thank you well. That

1279
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: leads me into my last and favorite question to ask

1280
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:44,720
Speaker 1: every guest, which is, what is your work in progress?

1281
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 2: Right now?

1282
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 1: Oh?

1283
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 2: My gosh, what is my work in progress? You know?

1284
01:13:53,400 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 2: I think my work in progress is knowing that there ever,

1285
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:04,759
Speaker 2: every dream you accomplish should tell you to dream even

1286
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:11,759
Speaker 2: bigger and feeling like that's okay and that more can happen,

1287
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 2: and also learning more how to how to manifest, just

1288
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:22,240
Speaker 2: how to manifest completely. You know, it's you get into

1289
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 2: the category of once you've taken a leap of faith

1290
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:28,759
Speaker 2: I certainly had in my career, two things can happen.

1291
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:32,599
Speaker 2: Either one you can think it was a fluke, or

1292
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 2: you can keep leaping with and believe that there'll be

1293
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:38,519
Speaker 2: some soft landings or be comfortable with the hard ones.

1294
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:41,599
Speaker 2: And so for me, my work in progress is always

1295
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 2: reminding myself to keep leaping and manifest the landing.

1296
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 1: I love that, and honestly, it feels so fitting that

1297
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:55,400
Speaker 1: it's the second because you giving us that reminder to manifest.

1298
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's got to be that. That has to

1299
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:58,400
Speaker 1: be the new Year's resolution. You said it.

1300
01:14:58,479 --> 01:14:59,680
Speaker 2: Let's go manifest some things.

1301
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:01,960
Speaker 1: Let's we have cars away, let's do it all.

1302
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:05,880
Speaker 2: We'll never forget what we seeped ourselves in, though too

1303
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:06,960
Speaker 2: hope it chokes you.

1304
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:10,720
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you so much, Laura. This has

1305
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:11,719
Speaker 1: really been such a joy.

1306
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:14,640
Speaker 2: It's so fun for me. Thank you so much. Congratulations

1307
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:16,640
Speaker 2: on all that you've accomplished and what's ahead of you

1308
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 2: as well. It's really such a pleasure to see if

1309
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:21,559
Speaker 2: all of us were fans of yours, it's such a

1310
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:24,640
Speaker 2: pleasure to see this trajectory continue.

1311
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. That means a lot.