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Speaker 1: On this week's episode of Cultivating her Space.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I think the thing that you take away from

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Speaker 2: black people who have lived that long in this country

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Speaker 2: you can survive anything. It might not be pretty, but

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Speaker 2: you can literally survive anything.

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Speaker 3: Hey, lady, have you ever felt like the world just

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Speaker 3: doesn't get you? Well we do.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Cultivating her Space, the podcast dedicated.

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Speaker 2: To uplifting and empowering women like you.

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Speaker 3: We're your hosts, Doctor Dominique Brussard and educator and psychologists.

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Speaker 1: And Terry Lomax, a techie and transformational speaker.

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Speaker 3: Join us every week for authentic conversations about everything from

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Speaker 3: fibroids to fake friends. As we create space for black

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Speaker 3: women to just be.

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Speaker 1: Before we dive in, make sure you hit that follow

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Speaker 1: button and leave us a quick five star review.

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Speaker 2: Lady, we are.

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Speaker 1: Black founded and black owned, and your support will help

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Speaker 1: us reach even more women like you.

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Speaker 3: Now, let's get into this week's episode of Cultivating her Space.

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Speaker 4: It's doctor dom here from the Cultivating her Space podcast.

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Speaker 4: Are you currently a resident of the state of California

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Speaker 4: and contemplating starting your therapy journey? Well, if so, please

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Speaker 4: reach out to me at doctor Dominique Brusard dot com.

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Speaker 4: That's d R D O M I n I q

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Speaker 4: U E b r O U ssar D dot com

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Speaker 4: to schedule a free fifteen minute consultation. I look forward

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Speaker 4: to hearing from you.

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Speaker 1: Lady, if you've been carrying grief, uncertainty, or just the

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Speaker 1: weight of what now or WT, this episode right here

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Speaker 1: is for you.

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Speaker 2: Today.

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Speaker 1: We're joined by Maria Vande Lee, best selling author of

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Speaker 1: Grief Is Love, and now she's back with another timely

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Speaker 1: resource for us, Waiting for Dawn, Living with Uncertainty, which

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Speaker 1: for LIASA is April seven, twenty twenty six. Marissa's work

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Speaker 1: has been featured everywhere from Good Morning America to NPR,

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Speaker 1: and she's spent years helping people navigate grief, chronic illness,

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Speaker 1: and the messy in between seasons of life. She writes

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Speaker 1: for the strong woman, the woman who is strong, right

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Speaker 1: but tired, capable but grieving, faithful but uncertain, and we

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Speaker 1: are so honored to have her today. There is so

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Speaker 1: much more that we can say about Marissa. Okay, go

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Speaker 1: look her up so you can see her, see her

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Speaker 1: credentials in her long bio. Okay, because listen, she's on point,

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Speaker 1: all right, Marissa, There's so much more we can say

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Speaker 1: about you, but we just want to welcome you to

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Speaker 1: cultivating her Space.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, thank you, thank you. It's a very generous file.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I'm so happy to be here

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Speaker 2: with you.

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Speaker 3: Dale, and we are definitely looking forward to this conversation.

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Speaker 3: So I will jump right in with our quote of

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Speaker 3: the day. And Marissa, this quote will sound very familiar

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Speaker 3: to you because these are your words, pull from the

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Speaker 3: introduction from Waiting for Dawn. Hard times are simply a

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Speaker 3: part of life, and I think we all want to

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Speaker 3: know how to do them well. I'm gonna read that

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Speaker 3: quote one more time for the folks in the back

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Speaker 3: so that you really sit with this, because this is

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Speaker 3: good grounding for our conversation that we're going to have today.

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Speaker 3: Hard times are simply a part of life, and I

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Speaker 3: think we all want to know how to do them well. Marissa,

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Speaker 3: When you hear your words reflected back to you, one,

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Speaker 3: how what comes up for you immediately? And then two,

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Speaker 3: give us a little context about that quote.

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Speaker 2: Okay, first of all, it is always you know, it's

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Speaker 2: still so weird to hear your words reflected back. Even

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Speaker 2: though this is my second book, and I've been writing

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Speaker 2: for a long time now it's still is like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I wrote that, that makes sense, and honestly, today those

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Speaker 2: are words that I need to hear because I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think sometimes people see my work in

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Speaker 2: the world, you know, read the books. Here's some of

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Speaker 2: the things that I have to say, and think that

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Speaker 2: I've got it all figured out. And I just want

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Speaker 2: to be very clear that I do not. Waiting for

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Speaker 2: Dawn is a book that I wrote as I was

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Speaker 2: living the answer to that question, and I'm still in

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Speaker 2: the middle of living the answer to that question. I've

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Speaker 2: been living with long COVID for almost two years now,

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Speaker 2: and today in particular, I'm also dealing with another health challenge.

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Speaker 2: And I think when when you're living in the midst

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Speaker 2: of any form of loss, gain or uncertainty, like that's

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Speaker 2: a question and just a reflection that you want to

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Speaker 2: maintain on a daily basis, because every day is different

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Speaker 2: and some days, you know, over the weekend, my husband

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Speaker 2: and I went out to dinner and to a comedy

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Speaker 2: show with our neighbors, and that was what I needed

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Speaker 2: to live well in that moment, you know, not feeling

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Speaker 2: a one hundred percent tired you know, kind of over

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Speaker 2: a lot of momming because we've had a lot of

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Speaker 2: snow days here lately. But that's what I you know,

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Speaker 2: I needed the laughter and the community on that day.

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Speaker 2: Another day it might be just some quiet time to

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Speaker 2: yourself to rest or read a book. And so I

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Speaker 2: want to encourage anyone who is listening, who's in the

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Speaker 2: middle of something challenging, to just give yourself space to

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Speaker 2: ask that question and to honestly reflect on, you know,

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Speaker 2: what's going to help you live your best life today,

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Speaker 2: no matter what you're dealing with. That is such a

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Speaker 2: beautiful intro.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the transparency, mercy, because it's

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Speaker 1: so comforting to know that even.

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Speaker 2: The I want to say experts, right, Like even.

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Speaker 1: The experts, we don't have it all figured out, right,

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Speaker 1: they don't have it all figured out, and we're all

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Speaker 1: just in this human experience, just doing the best we

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Speaker 1: can using the tools that we've leaned from the journey

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Speaker 1: every day, right, So thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: That response that was so beautiful.

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Speaker 1: And one thing we love to start with is really

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Speaker 1: thinking about like the black women that are listening, right.

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Speaker 1: We have black women across the globe who are tuning

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Speaker 1: in right now, and we think about the ones who

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Speaker 1: are caring families, careers, expectations, and sometimes silent grief. What

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Speaker 1: is one thing you hope that she walks away with

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Speaker 1: after listening to this conversation. I want her to take

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Speaker 1: care of herself. I think it is very hard for

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Speaker 1: us as black women to put ourselves first. You know

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the word expectations. I was thinking a lot

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Speaker 1: recently about the way of expectations when you are a caregiver,

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Speaker 1: when you are a successful black woman, when you also

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Speaker 1: happen to be eldest, daughter, bread winner, You know all

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Speaker 1: these different things, and it's all important. And I don't

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Speaker 1: want to I don't want to discourage anyone from caring

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Speaker 1: for others. But you do your best at caring for

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Speaker 1: others when you care for yourself first. And I don't

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Speaker 1: think we are We are usually trained to do that

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Speaker 1: as black women, and so I just I really, really

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Speaker 1: hope all of the black women listening to this episode

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Speaker 1: will just take a minute and really intentionally care for themselves.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you.

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Speaker 3: For sharing that and for grounding us in that. And

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Speaker 3: I had a question. I had a couple of questions

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Speaker 3: that came up from your response, but we'll get to

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Speaker 3: that later on. I will come back to those later on.

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Speaker 3: So I want to back us up just a little

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Speaker 3: bit and Terry rid your amazing bio, but take us

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Speaker 3: back and walk us through your origin story, Like how

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Speaker 3: did you get to be the Marissa that sits with

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Speaker 3: us today?

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Speaker 2: It's a great question, and as you were asking it,

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Speaker 2: I went back thirty years in time to thirteen year

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Speaker 2: old Marissa, who was very competitive and you know, hard charging,

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Speaker 2: type A wanting to be in charge of everything the

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Speaker 2: young person. And then one day my life just completely changed.

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Speaker 2: My mom, who was also type A, take care of everybody, pta,

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Speaker 2: you know, Sunday school teacher, all the things, she got

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Speaker 2: sick one day and she never got better. We spent

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Speaker 2: three and a half years, you know, taking her to

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Speaker 2: doctors all across New York State, specialists, having tests, run everything,

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Speaker 2: and you know, for black women navigating the healthcare system

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Speaker 2: in this country, it's really challenging. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: would sit at thirteen, then fourteen, and fifteen years old

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Speaker 2: in these appointments with her, and I could see that

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Speaker 2: some of these doctors just thought this was all in

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Speaker 2: her head. You know, maybe some sort of emotional response

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Speaker 2: that was manifesting physically but not something that they were

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Speaker 2: taking seriously. And it turned out she had multiple sclerosis.

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Speaker 2: And by the time they figured that out, it was

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Speaker 2: in her head in the sense that she had permanent

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Speaker 2: brain damage. And so for me, as a young person,

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Speaker 2: I needed to find my own way of making sense

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Speaker 2: of that situation and you know, the chaos and uncertainty.

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Speaker 2: And I just said to myself, you know, you can't

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Speaker 2: fix this, like you can't take away what's happened, Like

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Speaker 2: your mother has multiple sclerosis. It is what it is.

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Speaker 2: But you can work really hard and do really well

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Speaker 2: at school, go to a good college, you know, graduate,

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Speaker 2: get a good job, and you know, again typical black

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Speaker 2: women help take care of your family. So that's what

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Speaker 2: you're going to do. That became my plan, and that's

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Speaker 2: what I did. I graduated high school with honors and

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Speaker 2: you know, student biding president and all the other accolades,

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Speaker 2: and I went on to Harvard. I have a dual degree.

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Speaker 2: And the week I was graduating from Harvard, my mom

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Speaker 2: was diagnosed with breast cancer and so stage four breast

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Speaker 2: cancer on top of the multiple sclerosis. So I actually

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Speaker 2: took a year off after college to just help my

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Speaker 2: parents navigate that crisis. And you know, I remember, I

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Speaker 2: remember thinking a lot at the time about how unfair

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Speaker 2: the situation he felt. And you know, honestly, I had

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Speaker 2: a lot of anger that I didn't recognize was anger

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Speaker 2: because black women aren't allowed to be angry, And so

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Speaker 2: I channeled it into helping to take care of her

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Speaker 2: and also starting a breast cancer charity to help ensure that,

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Speaker 2: you know, other people's moms didn't suffer the same fate.

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Speaker 2: We lost my mom in two thousand and eight, and

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Speaker 2: right after she died, I decided that I was old

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Speaker 2: and I was going to go for whatever I wanted professionally.

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Speaker 2: You know, God, the world of the universe had taken

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Speaker 2: my person, and so I was going to take something back.

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Speaker 2: And that became a job in the White House, working

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Speaker 2: for pros and Obama, and you know, throughout and all,

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Speaker 2: there is this very clear thread of grief and uncertainty

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Speaker 2: and pain driving my competitiveness and you know, desire to

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Speaker 2: achieve and contribute to the world in a certain way.

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Speaker 2: But I didn't realize how much grief was a part

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Speaker 2: of the story until twenty nineteen, when my husband and

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Speaker 2: I lost a much wanted pregnancy, and it immediately brought

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Speaker 2: me back to my mom, you know, wishing she was

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Speaker 2: there to help us and support us and comfort us.

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Speaker 2: And that experience is what led to grief is love

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Speaker 2: and then ultimately waiting for Dawn. And so from me,

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Speaker 2: I have a hard time seeing my pain as just

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Speaker 2: a singular experience, you know, Like I believe that we

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Speaker 2: all have these horrible things that we go through in life,

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Speaker 2: and so when something horrible happens to me, I can't

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Speaker 2: help but ask the question, like what can I do

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Speaker 2: with this? Because it's bad enough that you have to

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Speaker 2: go through it, but like I want to do something

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Speaker 2: useful with it too, Like that's just who I am.

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Speaker 2: And so with Waiting for Don it's all about how

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Speaker 2: I lived through three years of tremendous pain and uncertainty

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Speaker 2: the long COVID. We lost my mother in law after

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Speaker 2: just a really complex also breast cancer diagnosis, and in

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Speaker 2: the middle of all of that, one of my cousins

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Speaker 2: went missing and we later learned she had been murdered

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Speaker 2: by an aduceive partner. And so, you know, figuring out

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Speaker 2: how to live well in the midst of those kinds

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Speaker 2: of situations has been really hard, but I wanted to

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Speaker 2: share the things that I learned.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that is just one Thank you so much again

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Speaker 1: for sharing, Marissa, And so many thoughts came up as

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Speaker 1: you were sharing, and I was thinking about just as

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Speaker 1: we did the research for this conversation, right looking at

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Speaker 1: your Instagram and it's so beautiful when you have a

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Speaker 1: beautiful family. I'm looking at you, I have a fit

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Speaker 1: like I saw you with like Gail King, you with Obama. Also,

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Speaker 1: your mother's so beautiful. I was looking at pictures of

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Speaker 1: you and your mom, and then as I was looking

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Speaker 1: at all the happy moments, I kind of saw these

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Speaker 1: other points like I saw the story about your cousin

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Speaker 1: YMMI and the beautiful picture you post of her, and

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Speaker 1: again like your mom and her journey, and I appreciate

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Speaker 1: the work that you do, and I just want to know, like,

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Speaker 1: what is something that people may not often talk about

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Speaker 1: when it comes to grief, like the thing that you know.

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Speaker 1: I lost a parent young as well, And there were

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Speaker 1: so many things that I learned through that experience where

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, people don't talk about this, Like what's

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Speaker 1: something that you like the people just don't talk about

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Speaker 1: like I wish people knew this about grief, and like

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Speaker 1: with that means through the journey forward, like I'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear your perspective on it.

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Speaker 2: So there are two things that come up a lot

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Speaker 2: and that I really want people to get comfortable with.

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Speaker 2: So one, you know, often with grief, people think about

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Speaker 2: the stages of grief, and when they don't go through

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Speaker 2: those stages in that precise order, you know they must

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Speaker 2: be doing something wrong, which then leads to feelings of

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Speaker 2: you know, shame, confusion, doubt, et cetera, none of which

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Speaker 2: are helpful. And so I want people to know that

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Speaker 2: those stages developed by Elizabeth Koobler Ross were actually intended

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Speaker 2: for people who were dying themselves, not for those of

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Speaker 2: us who are, you know, living through the bereavement process

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Speaker 2: of you know, losing someone that we love. So it's

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Speaker 2: just it's it's a very different situation, and I think

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Speaker 2: if you know that, you're no longer feeling bound to

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Speaker 2: be stages and you know, doing things a certain way.

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Speaker 2: The second thing is anger. There are so many people

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Speaker 2: who I talk to, all races, all genders, all forms

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Speaker 2: of loss who have had to reckon with anger related

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Speaker 2: to their loss. You know, for me, I remember I

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Speaker 2: was in a therapy session and you know, telling this

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Speaker 2: therapist this is twenty twenty one, mind you, my mom

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Speaker 2: died in two thousand and eight, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: I just I feel really heavy, like I feel weighed

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Speaker 2: down by something and I can't figure it out, and

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Speaker 2: I just feel perpetually exhausted. And finally she said, do

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Speaker 2: you think you could be mad? And as soon as

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Speaker 2: she said that, it was like like Paul went off

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Speaker 2: and I was like, yeah, I am pissed and I'm

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Speaker 2: pissed at my mom, and like that it was really

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Speaker 2: heard fme for me to admit because like, you know,

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Speaker 2: like first of all, she's been dead forever, like suffered

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Speaker 2: so much in her life, like loved me so well.

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Speaker 2: But I was like, I'm mad that she's not still here.

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Speaker 2: You know, there is this feeling of abandonment that is

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Speaker 2: connected to that anger often and it is incredibly common

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Speaker 2: for children who have lost a parent at any age.

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Speaker 2: And so I want people to know that that anger

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Speaker 2: is okay and the way I personally dealt with it

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Speaker 2: because I was like, you know, it's me. I was

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Speaker 2: like I have to do something with this. I wrote

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Speaker 2: about it, and I wrote my mom, you know, this

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Speaker 2: very dead woman a letter, and I decided through that

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Speaker 2: process that you know, forgiveness doesn't have to end with death,

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Speaker 2: you know, like if we can still love our people

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Speaker 2: who are no longer here, then we can also forgive

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Speaker 2: them and accept their forgiveness in turn. Like and so

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Speaker 2: I just want people to be like open to that

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Speaker 2: because it was really helpful for me. That is powerful,

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Speaker 2: so powerful. Thank you for pointing that out.

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Speaker 3: You know, in my in my work as a therapist,

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Speaker 3: that's something that I work with clients on all the time,

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Speaker 3: is understanding that grief, like you said, is not a

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Speaker 3: linear process and it has no expiration date.

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Speaker 2: Nope, nope.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, you pointed out your mom died

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and eight, and you were in a

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Speaker 3: therapy session in twenty twenty one having this realization and

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Speaker 3: this insight that allowed you to tap into a different

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Speaker 3: space of the grieving process. And so I thank you

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Speaker 3: for pointing that out, because so many people sit with

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Speaker 3: that shame or this embarrassment or this not understanding why

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Speaker 3: they're still grieving twenty thirty years later. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 3: love that you pointed out that it is okay to

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Speaker 3: be angry at the person.

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Speaker 2: Who left. Yeah, And I mean think about it, Like,

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Speaker 2: the people who we are most likely to get angry

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Speaker 2: with in life at any point are also the people

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Speaker 2: that were closest to you know, our spouses and partners,

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Speaker 2: our children, our parents, our best friends, like we love

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Speaker 2: them and sometimes they drive us crazy. And so I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, I needed to remind myself of that, like

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Speaker 2: this is okay. You know, she's still my mom. I

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Speaker 2: still love her, she still loves me. It's okay to

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Speaker 2: have this emotional experience. And I guess emotional response related

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Speaker 2: to her death even all these years later.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think you know, as we've been talking

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Speaker 3: about grief related to someone dying, but you also point

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Speaker 3: out that there's grief related to lots of other things

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Speaker 3: that happen in our life, and that we can often

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Speaker 3: be navigating multiple types of grief at the same time.

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Speaker 3: So can you talk to us a little bit about

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Speaker 3: how you've navigated the various types of grief that you've

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Speaker 3: experienced over time. Yes.

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Speaker 2: And I was really or at least to be very

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Speaker 2: thoughtful in how I defined grief and grief is love.

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Speaker 2: And I said, you know, grief is the repeated experience

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Speaker 2: of learning to live in the midst of a significant loss.

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Speaker 2: I didn't want it to just be tied to the

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Speaker 2: loss of a human being, because you know, I have

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Speaker 2: friends whose marriages have ended, and you know, I've seen

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Speaker 2: the tremendous grief that they have had to, you know,

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Speaker 2: figure out how to work with. I had friends at

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Speaker 2: the time who dealt with serious illnesses, you know, pregnancy, loss, infertility,

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Speaker 2: all of these types of things. And so for me,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'll tell you most recently, it's been really

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Speaker 2: interesting navigating living with a chronic illness and you know,

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Speaker 2: be becoming the thing that frankly I had most feared,

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Speaker 2: which is a sick mom, because I had a sick mom,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I know what that can feel like

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Speaker 2: for a child, and so obviously the last thing that

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Speaker 2: I want for my kid is to have any part

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Speaker 2: of that experience that I had to go through as

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Speaker 2: a young person. And it's been it's been tricky, ladies.

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Speaker 2: It has required a lot of therapy, a lot of crying,

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Speaker 2: a lot of just like writing it out and solo processing.

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Speaker 2: And where I'm at with it at this point, you know,

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Speaker 2: and we're a couple of years in so I've had

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Speaker 2: some time to do some work. I have chosen to

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Speaker 2: believe that you know, through this experience, I am teaching

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Speaker 2: my son about humility and compassion and resilience and you know,

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Speaker 2: thinking differently about strength and flexibility. Like I in the

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Speaker 2: last two years, I have probably picked him up like

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Speaker 2: maybe five times because I just I can't and the

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Speaker 2: bigger he gets, the harder it gets for me in

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Speaker 2: my weekend state. And so we started doing this thing

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Speaker 2: like a year and a half ago called the run

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Speaker 2: and hug where I would sit on the floor and

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Speaker 2: he and he is very very fast, he would just

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Speaker 2: run like full speed into me, and like that's how

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Speaker 2: we modified, you know, me picking him up. And so

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Speaker 2: I think, I think when you are navigating multiple forms

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Speaker 2: of grief, you really have to give yourself space to

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Speaker 2: process it so that you can figure out how to

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Speaker 2: live with it. And I think, and this is still

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Speaker 2: something I am working through. I think I've learned a

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Speaker 2: lot about my mom and what she went through from

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Speaker 2: being a sick mom, you know, like it was always

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Speaker 2: I always viewed it before from my perspective, and also

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Speaker 2: like what can I do to help her? And support

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Speaker 2: her and whatever. But I never thought about things like

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Speaker 2: how did she navigate having to ask for so much help?

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Speaker 2: Like how did she navigate? And like what did it

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Speaker 2: feel like having a body that suddenly went from you know,

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Speaker 2: very able exercise times a week to mostly bed bound?

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Speaker 2: Like you know, I never thought about those things, probably

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Speaker 2: because it was too sad. But now that I'm living them,

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Speaker 2: in some ways, I feel like I've gotten closer to her,

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Speaker 2: even though she's been gone for eighteen years.

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Speaker 1: Now, where so the authenticity is just it's so touching.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just kind of like visualized, visualizing your son

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Speaker 1: running up to you. I'm like visualizing aspects of your

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Speaker 1: story as you share. And again, I have like fifty

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Speaker 1: questions that I want to ask you, but I'm going

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Speaker 1: to stay focused and ask one So did you And

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Speaker 1: if so, how did you grieve the version of yourself

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Speaker 1: who could do it all? And what did you gain

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Speaker 1: from slowing down if you did grieve that version of you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I still a greeve for sometimes, especially right now,

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Speaker 2: you know, I am in the process of launching a

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Speaker 2: book out into the world, and it is a tremendous

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Speaker 2: amount of work, and it's just it's just really hard

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Speaker 2: to keep up, you know. I I can have these

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Speaker 2: kinds of conversations and do this now. I couldn't do

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Speaker 2: interviews like this six or seven months ago, and so like,

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to be able to do this, and

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Speaker 2: I'm always wishing I could do more. Because normal Marissa

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Speaker 2: would be doing three of these today. This version of

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Speaker 2: Marissa has to spread them out over the course of

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Speaker 2: a week because I need rest. I spend between two

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Speaker 2: and three hours a day like engaging in some form

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Speaker 2: of rest or recovery, you know, like mild physical therapy, exercises,

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Speaker 2: red light therapy, like actually taking a nap, because that's

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Speaker 2: still what my body needs. And I think the thing

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Speaker 2: that I have learned living in this version of my

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Speaker 2: body a few things humility. You know. I thought I

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Speaker 2: understood what it was like to be disabled and to

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Speaker 2: have a body that works differently from my experience with

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Speaker 2: my mom. But until it's your body that you just

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Speaker 2: don't get it. You know, the things that I just

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Speaker 2: completely took for granted, like travel and not having to

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Speaker 2: think about how far I have to walk between gates

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Speaker 2: and you know whether or not that's something I can

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Speaker 2: do without using a wheelchair, being able to exercise multiple

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Speaker 2: times a week, being able to even just talk to

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Speaker 2: people multiple times in the day. Like there's just there's

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Speaker 2: so many things. So humility has been a big one.

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Speaker 2: Self compassion has been another big one, Like I refuse

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Speaker 2: to be at war with my body. I know that

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Speaker 2: this isn't like my body has failed me. Like I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to use any of that kind of language,

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Speaker 2: like this thing has happened to me. It is unfortunate,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to do whatever I need to do

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Speaker 2: to be the healthiest version of me that I can

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Speaker 2: be possible. Like period and then patients, this one's still

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Speaker 2: a work in progress. Alone is not a patient person,

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Speaker 2: Like I want everything that I want yesterday, But I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to be better at pacing myself and respecting my body.

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Speaker 2: And this metaphor pops into my head like a week ago,

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00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 2: and it was flow, don't fight, And so I'm trying

436
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 2: really hard to just like, you know, go with the

437
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: flow more and not be you know, my usual aggressive

438
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: do it all today. So I'm working on it. I'm

439
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 2: working on it, all right, lady.

440
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick pause to share something

441
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Speaker 1: we genuinely love and are excited to partner with. This

442
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443
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444
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445
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446
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,560
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447
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448
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: the libido space can feel confusing and honestly not very trustworthy.

449
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Speaker 3: Exactly, and VB Health approaches this differently. Drive Boost is

450
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451
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452
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Speaker 1: And just like everything we promote, this is a product

453
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Speaker 1: that we personally tried and feel good recommending it works

454
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:07,480
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455
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Speaker 3: Another thing worth noting, drive boost is formulated for all genders.

456
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Speaker 3: That's you, your partner, and anybody else, which isn't always

457
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Speaker 3: the case in this category.

458
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: Yes, I love that so much, Lady.

459
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,320
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460
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461
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462
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463
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 3: And now let's get back to the conversation.

464
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 2: Thank you for that that. I like that quote float

465
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 2: to not fight and try.

466
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 3: So let's let's take us back just a little bit.

467
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 3: So for folks who don't fully understand, can you talk

468
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 3: to us about what is long COVID and share with

469
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 3: us a little bit of your journey of how you

470
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 3: got to that diagnosis because I know oftentimes healthcare system,

471
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 3: as we mentioned before, particularly for black women, there are

472
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: lots of symptoms we may have that get dismissed or

473
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: get misdiagnosed. So can you walk us through your process

474
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 3: of discovering that you had long COVID.

475
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 2: Yes, So, first of all, just real quick long COVID.

476
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 2: The simplest way to think about it is it is

477
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 2: immune system dysfunction that then triggers nervous system dysfunction that

478
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: then causes all sorts of problems in your body. So

479
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: an example, in my case, I think I was forty

480
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 2: one at the time. I never had asthma or breathing

481
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 2: problems in my life. At one point, the air was

482
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 2: so tight in my lungs that I had to use

483
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 2: an inhaler like every three hours. I had developed asthma

484
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 2: for the first time, and it was just like, what,

485
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: like this doesn't make any sense. Credibly low blood pressure

486
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: from the nervous system dysfunction. It's technically called disautmomia. You

487
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: just saw me drink some water, except it's not regular water.

488
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: I have to drink electrolytes. I take in about one

489
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five to one hundred and forty five

490
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: ounces of fluids a day, and I have to consume

491
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: between four thousand and forty five hundred additional milligrams of

492
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 2: sodium a day. And the only way to do it

493
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: is by drinking electrolytes all day long. I can't drink

494
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: regular water anymore. And there's you know, there's been a

495
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: bunch of other health things. But I'll tell you how

496
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: I arrived at the diagnosis. It was a lot of

497
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: It was a lot of denial and misdiagnosis before you know,

498
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: firmly acknowledging what was wrong with my body. So I

499
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: got I got COVID in April of twenty twenty four

500
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: for the first time. You know, I had a kid

501
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: in school, did a book tour for griefs, love was

502
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: living life, and I honestly, ladies, I thought I was

503
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: gonna be one of those people that never got COVID.

504
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: Like you know, I would never say that out loud,

505
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: did want to chance myself, but like that's and then

506
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: I got it, and like I had never been so

507
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: sick in my life as I was that week. It

508
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: wasn't I didn't have to go to the hospital. It

509
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: wasn't anything like that extreme. But I felt like, honestly,

510
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 2: I felt like I had no control over my body,

511
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: Like couldn't keep my eyes out and constantly throwing up

512
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: Like I mean, it was just it was awful. But

513
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: I figured a week or two, I'm gonna be fine.

514
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,239
Speaker 2: And so two weeks after getting COVID, you know, we

515
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: were potty training our kid and I was like back

516
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: at work, but I had all of these weird things

517
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: that were happening. You know. I had this horrible headache

518
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: that was so bad. At one point, I woke up

519
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: in the morning and I wear a night guard. I

520
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: had bitten a piece off in my sleep, Like that's

521
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: how bad the pain was. Like there was no escape,

522
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: there was no respite, like it was. It was devastating.

523
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: So I had these devastating headaches, and then I was

524
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: having these like very weird mood swings, like I remember

525
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 2: leaving the eye doctors and like sitting in the parking

526
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: lot and crying hysterically for like twenty minutes and not

527
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: being able to figure out, like why am I Like,

528
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: I'm not upset about anything. I don't understand what's happening.

529
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: And then a couple of days later, it would be

530
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: just wild anxiety, like heart beating, like it's going to

531
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: come out of my chest, just not making any sense.

532
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: I couldn't exercise fully, you know, I felt like I

533
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 2: was getting exhausted really quickly when I would get on

534
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: the peloton bike. You know, all these things are happening.

535
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: I go to the doctor's. She gives me a steroid

536
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 2: in an antibiotic, and you know, assumes it's an infection.

537
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: I start to like get a little bit better, but

538
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: now I'm having other neurological symptoms, like leaving my car

539
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: door open in the garage overnight and joining the battery,

540
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: going to make a meal that I make for my

541
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: family usually twice a month, and completely forgetting one of

542
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: the elements, like opening up the refrigerator to look for sugar.

543
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: What like, just things that did not make any sense. Still,

544
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: I was like, it's fine, you know, I just need

545
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: to get the headaches under control and then I'll be okay,

546
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: And so I spent the summer of twenty twenty four

547
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: like basically going to every kind of specialist to try

548
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: and find something else wrong with me besides long COVID.

549
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: I ended up getting some botox injections in my head

550
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: to help with like the pain management and the headaches,

551
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: and that August I flew to Greece for work. I

552
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: was leading a writing retreat in this like beautiful location

553
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: on the beach, absolutely wonderful. While I was there, I

554
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: was struggling to breathe and ended up being rushed to

555
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: the pulmonologist in the middle of nowhere grease one night.

556
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: It turned out my larynx was over seventy percent blocked,

557
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: so like I actually was not breathing effectively at all,

558
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 2: but he cleared me to fly home home. I came

559
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: home the next day, and that was when it was like, Okay,

560
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: like you, this game of denial is not working. You

561
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: need to own that this is what's happening and find

562
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: like the best doctors and specialists and like, you got

563
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: to figure it out. And so that's when I started

564
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: not that I wasn't I mean, I wasn't taking it seriously.

565
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: That's when I started really taking it seriously, and I

566
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: decided I was going to be really public about it,

567
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: because you know, COVID has become this very politicized thing

568
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: in our country, and there are a lot of people

569
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: who don't believe that long COVID is real, even though

570
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: there are over twenty million Americans suffering with long COVID

571
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: right now, including millions of children, which is like the

572
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: most heartbreaking piece for me. So I decided I was

573
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: going to put my story out there, and in doing that,

574
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: I ended up having someone who follows me on Instagram

575
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: reach out via email and say, you know, this is

576
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: my doctor. She is the best asked. She's at Mount

577
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: Sinai in New York. And I was like, okay, I'm

578
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: going to stop this woman until she becomes my doctor.

579
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: And she is my doctor, and she is the reason

580
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: why I'm now in a place where I can have

581
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: these kinds of conversations and you know, move around better

582
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,479
Speaker 2: and sleep better and and everything is better because of

583
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: doctor Hannan. She is like amazing. But yeah, it's been

584
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: a journey that started with a lot of doubt, and

585
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: now the focus is strictly I'm healing. That is one

586
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: hell of a journey. Wow, wow wow.

587
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: And it's so funny because I think most of us

588
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: as black women can relate to the denial aspect, like oh, okay,

589
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna take it, drink some ginger ale, yes,

590
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: put some big song, so much vix. Okay for you

591
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: to be in Greece, though, one had that experience, and

592
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that. I mean you, I'm so glad

593
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: you made it because that was like.

594
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: It was crazy. It was it was, it was awful,

595
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful to the women. There were multiple

596
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: women in Greece, like the woman who runs the residency

597
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: program there, Angelica, she lost her mamed a young age.

598
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: There was a neurologist in my writing group who was like,

599
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: this is what I think we need to do. Also

600
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: lost hermamedy young. You know, like my editor was there,

601
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 2: she lost trummed a young age. And so they were

602
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 2: all like, this is what we're gonna do. You're not

603
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: gonna argue with us. And thank God for them, because yeah,

604
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: I literally couldn't breathe. Yeah, thank God for them. And

605
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 2: I really appreciate how you really turn your pain into

606
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: power and purpose Like that is a consistent theme throughout

607
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 2: your story like oh, this is happening with my mom.

608
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 2: We're going to start this foundation or we're gonna, you know,

609
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: support this cause this is happening with me.

610
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna share the message. I'm thinking about women who

611
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: are caregiving and also holding their own pain. How does that.

612
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: Woman care for ourselves without feeling selfish?

613
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: Because I know in the beginning you talked about the

614
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: importance of caring for yourself.

615
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you gave us examples. We can we talk about

616
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: what does that look like in action? Like yeah, how

617
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: does it look like? Yeah? Okay, So the first thing

618
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: that I need to say is taking care of yourself

619
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: is not selfish. And I think one of the things

620
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: that has made it easier for me because I've struggled

621
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: with that. You know, I've been a caregiver since I

622
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: was thirteen years old. Like, of course I struggled with that,

623
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: and you know, black woman, Hello, I think about it

624
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: like this, If you don't care for yourself and you

625
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: become physically or mentally unwell, you're not going to be

626
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 2: as equipped to care for these other people who you love.

627
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: So like, I had to think about it in that

628
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,959
Speaker 2: framing in order to get comfortable with it. The other

629
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: framing that helped me get better at taking care of

630
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,479
Speaker 2: myself was thinking about the advice that I would give

631
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: to my best friend, you know, like what I think

632
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 2: that she's selfish for taking time out to go to

633
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: therapy or you know, take a nap or go see

634
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: a movie, you know, while she's also working really hard

635
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: as a professional and a caregiver. Of course, Matt, so like,

636
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: why can't I treat myself the same way? And so

637
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 2: practically what that has looked like for me. I'll give

638
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 2: you an example from a more positive time in my life.

639
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: Our son is adopted. It took us five years to

640
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: get to this child, and it was one of those

641
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 2: things where at the end of the five years, we

642
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 2: became parents in twenty five hours, like from phone call

643
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 2: to baby and him, and it was like it was wild.

644
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 2: And I said to myself, I want to be the

645
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: kind of parent that models what it looks like to

646
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: care for yourself. Like I know that if I take

647
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: good care of myself, that's going to be a good

648
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: model for my son, and it's going to help me

649
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: take better care of this newborn. And so I said

650
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: to myself every day, even if these activities only add

651
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: up to twenty minutes in the course of a twenty

652
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 2: four hour day. You are going to write because I

653
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 2: feel better when I write, Like I just have to

654
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 2: put pen on paper every day otherwise I don't feel right.

655
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 2: You are going to meditate, and you are going to exercise.

656
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: And sometimes it was like literally a five minute workout

657
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 2: or just like running down the block and back where

658
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 2: that airbnb where we were staying. But I was like,

659
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: I'm going to do these things because I know it's

660
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: going to help me take better care of him. And

661
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: I want a model from day one how I want

662
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: him to take care of himself. And so I really

663
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 2: want to encourage women figure out what are the things

664
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: that work best for you. You know, for some people

665
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: it is meditation and breath work, which I've gotten really into.

666
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: For some people it's the workout. You know, there is

667
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: there is real evidence on both of those things in

668
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 2: terms of how they can support our physical and mental

669
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: health during hard times. Sometimes it's just hiding from the

670
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: people that you have to take care of, Like I

671
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 2: have definitely hid in a closet, hid in the bathroom.

672
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: You know, it's like mom, Mom, Mom, I'm like mom's out. Listen,

673
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: I don't care.

674
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: That is so good, Marissa. I'm so glad you said that,

675
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: because I'm almost five. She's going five this month, five

676
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: year old. And sometimes like the ma mama, and you

677
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: love them, you love them the piece you said that, Yes,

678
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: hide in the clos go hide to hear so much. Okay,

679
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: these are great tips.

680
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 2: I love it so much.

681
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: I'm taking notes, by the way, so if you see

682
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: me looking at it, I'm taking notes. And I also wanted

683
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: to ask you about I want to kind of go

684
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 1: back to what we talked about earlier, and I want

685
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: to understand how has your perspective on depth evolved considering

686
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 1: the losses that you've experienced. I want to know about that.

687
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: But then also any potential rituals that you engage in

688
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: to connect with your mom or anyone that you've lost

689
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: it that's meaningful to you.

690
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: I love to hear about that. Yes, I am so.

691
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: In terms of my perspective on death, you know, I

692
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: think that people, a lot of people think that it's

693
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 2: morbid to think a lot about death and end of life,

694
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: but for me, I find that it just gives you

695
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: a better perspective on the day to day. It reminds

696
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 2: you of what really matters, you know, especially this time

697
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: of year, because so the anniversary of my mom's passing

698
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 2: was just Saturday, and her birthday is just ten days

699
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: before that, So like this is the time of year

700
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: when I'm thinking about her a lot, and I just

701
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 2: think it was so amazing to be able to talk

702
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 2: to her at the end and you know, ask her

703
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: like what do you need and you know, like what

704
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: do you wish you to have to do? What do

705
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: you need to see? And the list was so short.

706
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: It was there were literally two people who she hadn't

707
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: seen in a while who she wants to make sure

708
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: she spent time with. And that was it, Like no regrets.

709
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: And this woman first got sick at thirty seven, and

710
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: so to think that she lived her life in this

711
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: very you know, unfortunate and like diminished state for a

712
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 2: really long time and still at the end was completely

713
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: at peace with the life that she led like that,

714
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 2: like knowing that that is possible and being reminded of

715
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: what she did care about at the end. It was people.

716
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 2: It wasn't any sort of professional achievement or external accomplishment.

717
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: It was people who she left and so for me,

718
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: I like, I like thinking about it because it just

719
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 2: helps you keep a healthy perspective on what really matters.

720
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 2: And in terms of ritual, I'll share a few of mine,

721
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: and I'll also share some from friends of mine who

722
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: lost parents young as well. I think the most important

723
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: thing is to identify the things that like matter to

724
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: you and that are going to bring joy to you

725
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: and the other people who you want to have an

726
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: opportunity to connect with this person, Like my son talks

727
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: about my mother like she's going to walk through the

728
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 2: door tomorrow. You know, it's like it's so bizarre, and

729
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what happens when we leave

730
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: this world or when we come into this world, but

731
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: they definitely have some kind of like crazy connection, and

732
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 2: you know, we do little things like I'll make pancakes

733
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: on Sundays because my mom made pancakes even when she

734
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 2: was really sick most Sundays before church, Like that was

735
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: just sort of a given. She also had a massive

736
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 2: sweet tooth, So I will always be baking during the

737
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 2: second half of February. I mean two cakes and a

738
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 2: new brownie recipe, like that is just no one is

739
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 2: going to take that away. From me, like there will

740
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: always be baking happening. She was also big on how

741
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 2: she looked like she was vain. I am also vain,

742
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: so I you know, I will gay with it. I

743
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,439
Speaker 2: got my nails done on her birthday because like that's

744
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: something that she would do regularly. Like we had to

745
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: cancel her last manicure appointment. She had the woman coming

746
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: to our house at that point because she was so

747
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: sick because she died before the appointment happened. Like she

748
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 2: was keeping those appointments like up until the very end.

749
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: One of my best friends, her grandmother died probably like

750
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: fifteen years ago now, and she had this few of

751
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: garden and so my girlfriend dug up a bunch of

752
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 2: the bulbs and planted them in her yard. And so

753
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: my grandmother passed it almost one hundred and two this

754
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: past summer. Yeah, yeah, And she had a garden that

755
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: was like photographed by people. It was in a couple

756
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 2: of movies, like you know, it was like it was

757
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: a whole situation, and so I was like, I don't

758
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,959
Speaker 2: care what it takes, like even in my week long

759
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 2: COVID state, I'm gonna go over there and I'm gonna

760
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: dig up as much sup as I can, and that's

761
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 2: what I did. And We've had a really intense winter

762
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 2: here in the Northeast, and so I've been like, oh

763
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: my god, Like they're like, there's no way this stuff survived.

764
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: Like I don't actually have a green thumb. I just

765
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 2: put it in the ground and like set a prayer.

766
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 2: And we had just enough snow melt this weekend that

767
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 2: you can see like the little green shoots starting to

768
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: come up. I'm like, yes, so yeah, I just want

769
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 2: to encourage people, like figure out the things that are

770
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: gonna make you smile and I are going to make

771
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 2: you happy that can to your person and do that

772
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: and don't feel like it's weird or people are going

773
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 2: to be judging you, because who cares what other people

774
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: think they meant to that.

775
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: And I love how when you speak about these rituals

776
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 1: and just the plan of self care, it's all personalized.

777
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: I think we live like sometimes on social media like

778
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: everyone has to do it this way, everyone has to

779
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: do this, like no, do what works for you. And

780
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: also I love that you said, Marisa, don't feel like

781
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: it's weird. It's a personal, sacred experience, so it's not

782
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: something you have if you feel like broadcasting it cool,

783
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: but like you don't have time, it can be meaningful

784
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: to you. I think exact day exactly sow you talked

785
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: about your grandmother and he says, she passed this summer.

786
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for your loss. She was one hundred k two.

787
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: She died like I think ten.

788
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: It wasn't even ten days before her one hundred and

789
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 2: second birthday. Yeah, what did you learn from her?

790
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: I mean she saw so much like, yeah, what are

791
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: some of the lessons she told you?

792
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: She was sassy, opinionated, and like bossy, like literally until

793
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 2: the end. I honestly, I think the thing that you

794
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: take away from black people who have like lived that

795
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: long in this country you can survive anything, like it

796
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: might not be pretty, but you can literally survive anything.

797
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 2: And one of the stories in Waiting for Down that's

798
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: at the end of the book. I hate that I'm

799
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 2: about to slow the ending, but I'm going to do

800
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: it anyway. It's it's about my grandparents and you know,

801
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 2: their belief that staying in the South was not going

802
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 2: to be the best thing for their family, even though

803
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: you know, my my grandmother and my great grandparents, like

804
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 2: they were actually black landowners in Georgia, which you know,

805
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 2: super super rare in the early nineteen hundreds, but they

806
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 2: just they didn't think that was the safest place, and

807
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 2: so they decided that my grandfather was going to take

808
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 2: a different job, with like the goal being a move

809
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: to the north eventually. And the night before they were

810
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,959
Speaker 2: set to move, the people who owned the farm where

811
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 2: he was working at the time, you know, this man

812
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: and a bunch of his buddies showed up to my grandparents'

813
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: house in the middle of the night with something called

814
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: trace chains, which I didn't know what they were. They're

815
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: like in the thick metal chains that you use to

816
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: attach a horse to a wagon. Like they showed up

817
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: to you know, beat him into submission and convinced him

818
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 2: that he had to stay and work for them, and

819
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 2: my grandfather met them at the front door with a

820
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: shotgun and they left the next day and were in

821
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: New York I think about a year or two later.

822
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: And so, you know, for me, their story and the

823
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 2: things that they experienced and went through and were still

824
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: like yeah, no, like we're we're we're going to make it.

825
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 2: We're going to be fine no matter what. Like it's

826
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: a reminder that, like, you really can live through horrible

827
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 2: challenges and hardships and still make it. What a story.

828
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: I'm again, I'm visualizing all this play. I'm like, you

829
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,479
Speaker 1: better go ahead, Grandpa, You've got to be shot gun.

830
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: I've taken my family for leaving. That is so inspiring.

831
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's so inspiring. It's amazing. And I want

832
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: to ask you about the book. Where is it so

833
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,919
Speaker 1: as you are preparing for this book to enter into

834
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: the world, right, what would you say feels most tender

835
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: or meaningful about this season for you?

836
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: Oh? Gosh, honestly, what feels most meaningful is thinking about

837
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 2: all of the people who helped me get to this place,

838
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 2: because writing this book was like, it was a devastating process.

839
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 2: You know, there were weeks where I couldn't even open

840
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: up my computer forget about like write anything, or like

841
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: write anything that made any kind of sense. And the

842
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: fact that we have a book that is finished, you know,

843
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 2: that is starting to get really good reviews and ignition

844
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 2: and all of these things, I'm like, I don't actually

845
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: know how it happened, except that a lot of people helped,

846
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: whether they you know, watched my kid or you know,

847
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 2: took me to a doctor's appointment or picked up a

848
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 2: prescription or brought a meal or you know, read some

849
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 2: pages or you know, helped me think about the structure.

850
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 2: Like so many people helped in so many different ways,

851
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 2: and without them, like the book just wouldn't exist.

852
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: We often talk about community on the podcast, and so

853
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 1: it sounds like your community has definitely been a helpful

854
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: resource about the process.

855
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 2: So we're grateful for them. We're grateful for you.

856
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: And before we close out, is there anything that we

857
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: didn't cover that you're like, Oh, I really wanted to

858
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: say this about whatever topic before we close out.

859
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 2: I mean, the only thing I would say, you know,

860
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 2: especially for black women living in this very chaotic, terrifying,

861
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: upside down hateful world right now, it is just so

862
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 2: important to you maintain a commitment to hope and you know,

863
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,720
Speaker 2: staying committed to the idea that things can be better

864
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 2: than whatever they are today. And I need you to

865
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 2: do whatever you need to do to maintain that feeling

866
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: because that is the energy that actually drives growth and

867
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 2: change and healing and improvement. But it's not it's not

868
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: easy to maintain. Like you know, we woke up this

869
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 2: weekend to war like what what is happening? And so

870
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 2: I just want to encourage again, ladies, you've got to

871
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 2: take care of yourselves. Thank you so much more so

872
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 2: those are wise words, and we appreciate you reminding us

873
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: that it is a daily process.

874
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: Like every day it's one foot in front of the other.

875
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: Take care of ourselves, prioritize our self care. We're so

876
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Speaker 1: excited about your book. We appreciate you and the work

877
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Speaker 1: you're doing in the world, and we just want to

878
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: thank you so thank you, so much, thank you.

879
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 2: This is really fun.

880
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Speaker 1: If you want more speaking engagements, collaborations, or a visibility

881
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Speaker 1: for your brand, I got to tell you the truth.

882
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Speaker 1: This is Terry Lomax and I've been a public speaker

883
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Speaker 1: for over twelve years. I've lended national media, a TED talk,

884
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Speaker 1: in six figure collaborations without a publicist or a big

885
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Speaker 1: social media following. And here's what most people don't hear.

886
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Speaker 1: You don't need a publicist or a massive audience to

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Speaker 1: get booked. Most people are waiting to feel established first,

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Speaker 1: and that waiting is costing them visibility. How many times

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Speaker 1: have you looked up and seeing people with less experience

890
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Speaker 1: getting opportunities you were fully qualified for Here's the truth.

891
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Speaker 1: Opportunities don't go to the most qualified, They go to

892
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Speaker 1: the people who can clearly communicate their value. Once I

893
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Speaker 1: learned how to organize my story and position my expertise

894
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Speaker 1: using a framework, everything changed. If you want my exact

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Speaker 1: pitch emails, word for word, my winning subject lines, and

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Speaker 1: the Saucy Solutions framework, visit get that pitch dot Com

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Speaker 1: for a limited time, use cold her Space for a

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Speaker 1: special listener discount your year to stop hiding and start

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Speaker 1: getting booked.

900
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Speaker 2: I'll see you inside.

901
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Speaker 1: Visit get that pitch dot Com or click the leave

902
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Speaker 1: In our show notes.

903
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 3: Thanks for tuning into cultivating her Space. Remember that while

904
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 3: this podcast is all about healing, empowerment, and resilience, it's

905
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 3: not a substitute for therapy. If you are someone you

906
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 3: know need support, check out resources like Therapy for Black

907
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 3: Girls or Psychology Today. If you love today's episode, do

908
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 3: us a favor and share it with a friend who

909
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 3: needs some inspiration, or leave us a quick five star review.

910
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 3: Your support needs the world to us and helps keep

911
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Speaker 3: this space thriving.

912
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: And before we meet again, repeat after me, I trust

913
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: myself to begin even without all the answers, keep Thriving

914
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 1: Lady and tune in next Friday for more inspiration from

915
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: cultivating her space. In the meantime, be sure to connect

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00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: with us on Instagram at her Space Podcast