1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Leon Napok. I'm the host of Fiasco, 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: but you may also know me from the podcasts Slowburn, 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Think Twice, Michael Jackson, and Backfired the Vaping Wars. I'm 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: excited to be sharing with you the next season of Backfired, 5 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: titled Attention Deficit, which is now available exclusively on Audible. 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: Backfired is a podcast about the business of unintended consequences. 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 1: In the first season, my co host Ril Pardess and 8 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: I dove deep into the world of vaping and how 9 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: the well intentioned quest for a safer cigarette went awry. 10 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: Now we're tackling ADHD and how the push to destigmatize 11 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: this hard to define childhood diagnosis has led to an 12 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: explosion of stimulant use in kids as well as adults. 13 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: It's a story about the promise of psychiatry to fix 14 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: our brains and the power of the pharmaceutical industry to 15 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: shape how we and our doctors think about what's wrong 16 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: with us. To hear both seasons of Backfired, go to 17 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: audible dot com slash Backfired and start a free trial 18 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: that's audible dot com slash backfired. Fiasco is intended for 19 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: mature audiences. For a list of books, articles and documentaries 20 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: we used in our research. Follow the link in the 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: show notes. Previously on Fiasco, AIDS is infecting more and 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: more heterosexuals, men and women, teens and babies. 23 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 2: The Surgeon General today prescribed education children he feels need 24 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 2: to be yarned in school about the danger of AIN. 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 3: Now many people are not receiving information that is vital 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 3: to their future health and well being. 27 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,279 Speaker 4: Researchers say, a new class of drugs are working. 28 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 2: A cure for AIDS may soon be a possibility. 29 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: Felt like some grand act of mercy made manifest when 30 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: we decided to make a season of Fiasco about the 31 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: AIDS epidemic. The arrival of the Triple Cocktail in nineteen 32 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: ninety six seemed like a natural place to end our story. 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: The most optimistic note since the terrible disease was first recognized. 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: These new so called to wonder drugs, the Triple Cocktail 35 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: represented a monumental turning point, a bookend to the era 36 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: when HIV meant certain death. 37 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: A new combination of drugs, including a new class called 38 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 2: proteation inhibitors. 39 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: From the discovery of the earliest cases of AIDS, people 40 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: had been imagining, dreaming of something like the Triple Cocktail, 41 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: a medicine that could overpower the disease. It was easy 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: to assume that the war on AIDS would be one 43 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: with the development of a successful treatment. 44 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 5: I've really had about as close to a miraculous recovery, 45 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 5: certainly more so than I ever imagined I would see. 46 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: But the Triple Cocktail did not end the epidemic. While 47 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 1: it helped people who were already sick, new people kept 48 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: getting infected, about fifty thousand the year after the Triple 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: Cocktail became available, in fifty thousand more the year after that. 50 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,119 Speaker 1: In the decades since the treatment was introduced, nearly one 51 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: million people in the United States have been diagnosed with HIV. 52 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: And So, in this final episode of Fiasco, season five, 53 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: I want to get into some of the reasons why 54 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: the epidemic is still with us. What needed to happen 55 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: that didn't, and what could have been done that wasn't. 56 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 6: I want you to believe that we can make America 57 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 6: work again. 58 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: To tell this part of the story, I want to 59 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: go back to the early nineties, when a Democrat from 60 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: Arkansas was running for president and promising a new approach 61 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: to the AIDS crisis. 62 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 7: I think most Americans still don't know how many people 63 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 7: are out there who are HIV positives. 64 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: If nothing else, Bill Clinton was willing to talk about HIV. 65 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: Unlike his Republican predecessors, Clinton seemed less inclined to minimize 66 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: or ignore the problem. 67 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 7: The president should type responsibility or the problems of the 68 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 7: country and be honest enough to say, we might not 69 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 7: solve them in a year or two, we may not 70 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 7: solve them all in four years, but at least we're 71 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 7: going to roll off our sleeves. 72 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 8: And go to work. 73 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: Let's get to work, Clinton for people for a change. 74 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: At this point, scientists were still years away from developing 75 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: what became the triple cocktail, but that didn't mean there 76 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: was no progress to be made. After all, treating people 77 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: who already had HIV was only one front in the 78 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: war on AIDS. The other was preventing people from getting 79 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: it in the first place, and that was hard for 80 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: reasons that had nothing to do with science or medical research. 81 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: By the time Clinton took office, public health experts already 82 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: had a bunch of good ideas for how to prevent 83 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: more people from getting infected. Those ideas all had one 84 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: thing in common. They required talking openly, explicitly and pragmatically 85 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: about how HIV was spread, and because that meant talking 86 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: about sex and drugs, it ensured that AIDS would continue 87 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: haunting the country and threatening people's lives long after the 88 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: medical mystery was effectively solved. I'm Leon Nafok from Audible 89 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: Originals and Prologue Projects. This is fiasco. 90 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 9: Anytime you're talking about sex and drugs. 91 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 8: It's a moral issue. 92 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 10: We need to crack down on drug abuse, not promote 93 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 10: more drug addiction. 94 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,239 Speaker 11: But we don't want people to use drugs. Well, that's great, 95 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 11: there's no easy way to do that. 96 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 5: We had a strategy that would save people from getting infected. 97 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,239 Speaker 10: And the question is why aren't they acting. 98 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: On this week's season finale, a new administration promises to 99 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: turn the page on the HIV AIDS epidemic and instead 100 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: gets wrapped up in old arguments about sex, drugs, and morality. 101 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: Ricky Blutenthal was living in Oakland, California, studying sociology at Berkeley, 102 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: and he came face to face with HIV. The year 103 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: was nineteen ninety. 104 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 11: I was getting a PhD because I was interested in 105 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 11: the problems of what we were then calling interstiti black people. 106 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: Blutenthal had started his research with a focus on gangs 107 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: and drug distribution. Now he was part of a team 108 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: that was studying the prevalence of HIV in people who 109 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: used drugs in the Bay Area. Their data collection effort 110 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: was centered on a neighborhood about twelve miles outside Oakland 111 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: called the Iron Triangle. 112 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 11: And it's called Iron Triangle because it's there's a triangle 113 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 11: formed by rail lines that cut through the community. It's 114 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 11: like a very common thing that happens to historic African 115 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 11: American neighborhoods, where they get split up and divided by 116 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 11: undesirable infrastructure. 117 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: Blutenthal knew that racial disparities and health outcomes were structural 118 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: and that if properly understood, they could be undone. By 119 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: studying drug use and HIV and the Iron Triangle, he 120 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: saw an opportunity to use social science to actually help people. 121 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 11: I had an advantage in that, you know, I'm African American, 122 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 11: so I felt comfortable working in the community and being 123 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 11: respectful engaged with people. So I didn't come in with 124 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 11: a lot of hard attitudes about any of it, about 125 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 11: drug use, about HIV, and so that gave me a 126 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 11: chance to learn and then try to be responsive to 127 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 11: the problems people were confronting. 128 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: As part of the study, the researchers administered HIV tests 129 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: to lots and lots of people who used injecting drugs. 130 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: At one point, it fell to Blutenthal to give a 131 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: group of study participants the results. 132 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 11: You know, I had like a series of seven or 133 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,239 Speaker 11: eight counseling results that I had to share, and everyone 134 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 11: was positive, and I just started crying. Remember, you know, 135 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 11: this was a context of you know, it was five 136 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 11: years before we had effective treatments for HIV, so essentially 137 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 11: we were handing what felt like death sentences. I mean 138 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 11: it chacks me up now, you know. And it was 139 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 11: one of those moments where you you know, your rubber 140 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 11: meets the road, right, you know, you have to decide 141 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 11: are you going to do something about it. 142 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: What Blutenthal decided to do about it was help start 143 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: a program in Oakland where people who used injecting drugs 144 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: like heroin could obtain clean syringes for free instead of 145 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: sharing contaminated ones with other people. It was a model 146 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: that first gained traction in the Netherlands and crossed over 147 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: into the United States in the mid eighties. 148 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 4: There are some cities where groups of individuals have set 149 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 4: up privately run exchanges. 150 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 8: Me a heroin addict is a bad nothing. 151 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 4: I don't really feel I want to get AIDS to say, 152 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 4: the clean needles work for me. 153 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: The premise of needle exchange was straightforward. When people who 154 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: are using drugs together syringes, they end up sharing blood 155 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: and if one of those people has HIV, the rest 156 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: are at extreme risk for getting it to The reason 157 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: so many people were sharing syringes was that they were 158 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: hard to get, and the reason for that goes back 159 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: to the War on drugs, which began under Richard Nixon 160 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one. 161 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 2: America's public enemy Number one in the United States is 162 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 2: drug abuse. In order to fight and defeat this enemy, 163 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: it is necessary to wage a new, all out offensive. 164 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: Nixon's offensive led to a host of new laws around 165 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: the country aimed at making it harder for people to 166 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: use drugs. 167 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 11: There was a bit of a cannabis or marijuana panic 168 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 11: in the late seventies, so the Department of Justice developed 169 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 11: a model drug paraphernalia law that was really focused on cannabis. 170 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 10: Marijuana has become so widespread that virtually anyone is likely 171 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 10: to be a user upon its site. 172 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 3: There was no such thing a safe. 173 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 11: Marijuana, So they wanted to get rid of roach clips 174 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 11: and shut down the smoke shops. But in the course 175 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 11: of doing that they added other things, right, and one 176 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 11: of those other things they added was syringes. 177 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: Selling syringes became illegal in most states, and some states 178 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: even banned possession before long. Syringes were extremely hard to 179 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: come by, and those who needed access to them multiple 180 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: times a day started sharing them with each other. Unsurprisingly, 181 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: that had some major health consequences, and as heroin use 182 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: rose over the course of the seventies, some injecting drug 183 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: users in New York City started coming down with a 184 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: respiratory disease nicknamed junkie pneumonia. Others developed a condition that 185 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: was referred to as the dwindles because the people getting 186 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: sick looked like they were wasting away. More recent research 187 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: has revealed that these conditions were most likely caused by aids, 188 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: which circulated among drug users in New York for years 189 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: before crossing over into other populations. As you heard in 190 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: our first episode, researchers only identified it as a new 191 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: disease in nineteen eighty one, after it started showing up 192 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: in gay men. 193 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 11: In the United States, the focus was on sexual minority men, 194 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 11: and for good reason. The problem we had then we 195 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 11: still have a problem now, which is that people who 196 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 11: inject drugs aren't a particularly sympathetic group, and unlike sexual 197 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 11: minority men, they're not able to mobilize politically at the 198 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 11: same level. 199 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: The earliest needle exchange activists in the US knew that 200 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: what they were doing was illegal. They were distributing drug paraphernalia. 201 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: Their hope was that local governments would see the good 202 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: in it and potentially even take over the exchanges themselves, 203 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: but that wasn't going to happen without a struggle. 204 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 12: Handing out needles is illegal throughout most of the country. 205 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: Many people believe that keeps attics addicted. To many politicians 206 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: and government officials, change sounded a lot like enabling drug use. 207 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 13: It sends a terrible message that we are encouraging people, 208 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 13: or we are at least accepting the fact that these 209 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 13: people are are drug users and not doing very much 210 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 13: to get them offer. 211 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 11: It's almost like throwing in the town. 212 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty eight, President Reagan signed a law that 213 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: banned federal agencies from providing funding for needle exchange programs. 214 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: Here is Reagan's Surgeon General see Everett Coop explaining the 215 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: politics around the decision. 216 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 3: It's very difficult even with people who are quite reasonable 217 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 3: about the problems associated with AIDS, they can bring themselves 218 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 3: to countenance a program that seems to aid and a 219 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 3: bet an illegal and an mral practice, namely IVY drug abuse. 220 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: The funding ban put a very low ceiling on how 221 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: widespread needle exchange could become. According to the text of 222 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: the law, the ban could be overturned, but not until 223 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: there was definitive evidence that needle exchange reduced the bread 224 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: of HIV without simultaneously increasing drug use. As public health 225 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: experts set about conducting that research, small locally funded exchanges 226 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: continued to pop up around the country. The program, co 227 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: founded by Ricky Bluthenthal, was among them. In nineteen ninety two, 228 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: he and his team set up shop in West Oakland, 229 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: near an area where drugs were sold. They were supported 230 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: by tiny grants from community organizations and sourced their supplies 231 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: from another more established exchange in the Bay Area. 232 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 11: So we just set up a table. We have educational 233 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 11: information condoms, clean cotton, and then there'd be a big 234 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 11: red bucket to collect the use syringes in, and then 235 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,479 Speaker 11: we'd have our cases of clean syringes. 236 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: That was the system. Bring used syringes, toss them in 237 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: the big red bucket, and leave with one clean syringe 238 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: for each one you brought with you. Bluthenthal and his 239 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: team distributed thousands of syringes during the first few months 240 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: of the Oakland program. Through it all, they got no 241 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: support from any government agency. In fact, they did their 242 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: work knowing they could be arrested at any time. Until 243 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: government officials at the local, state, and federal levels embraced 244 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: need to exchange, that would be the status quo. Then 245 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton became president, and suddenly there was reason to 246 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: hope that needle exchange could come out from the shadows. 247 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 7: I was born in a little town called Hope, Arkansas. 248 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: After twelve years of Reagan and Bush, many AIDS activists 249 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: thought there was at least a chance that the Clinton 250 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: presidency could be different, to. 251 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 7: Change all our people's lives for the better and bring 252 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 7: hope back to the American dream. 253 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: After he was elected, Clinton took steps to signal his 254 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: commitment to public health one was to task his wife 255 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: Hillary with shaping his administration's approach to healthcare. Another was 256 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: to nominate an unapologetically progressive doctor named Joycelyn Elders as 257 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: surgeon General. 258 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 9: I was a sophomore in colleague when I realized that 259 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 9: I wanted to be a doctor. 260 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: Growing up in rural Shawl, Arkansas, population ninety. 261 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 8: Nine ninety eight, when I'm in little Rock. 262 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: Elders didn't know anyone who was a doctor, and she 263 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: got very little health education at school, you know. 264 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 9: For I learned the most about sex education of really 265 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 9: more about menstruation and now was from the leaflet that 266 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 9: co Texts put in the cotext box. 267 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: Elders went to medical school and became a pediatric endochronologist. 268 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty seven, while Clinton was governor of Arkansas, 269 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: he put her in charge of the state's Department of Health. 270 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: By that point, AIDS was affecting people of color at 271 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: twice the rate of white people. Black women, in particular, 272 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: were twelve times as likely to contract HIV as white women. 273 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: From her position in the state government, Elders tried to 274 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: do something about the disparities by pushing for comprehensive sex 275 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: ad and free condoms. 276 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 9: I began called the condom Queen, and in fact I 277 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 9: had condom tree on my desk. 278 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: Wait, what's a condom tree? 279 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 9: Well, it was a rubber tree, a tree that the 280 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 9: nurses made for me, the public health nurses condoms of 281 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 9: all different colors, Christmas tree, and sat in the middle 282 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 9: of my conference table. 283 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: And so you could take what if you wanted to one. 284 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 8: No, they couldn't take them off my tree. 285 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 9: But then there was plenty of them sitting out in 286 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 9: the condom bow out in the office that you could 287 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 9: just reach in and grab them. 288 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: Elders made it a point to try to reach people 289 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: who had been overlooked in a lot of HIV prevention messaging. 290 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: She found that most of her ideas, particularly on sex 291 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: ad and the distribution of condoms, were wildly unpopular in Arkansas. 292 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 9: Anytime you're talking about sex and drugs, it's a moral 293 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 9: issue rather than a public health issue. 294 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 6: And that has made doctor Joycelne Elders Arkansas's most controversial woman. 295 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 9: That wanted to tell me how God was going to 296 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 9: strike me dead and stuff like that. 297 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 11: This nation, not just our exult. 298 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: Sex education is chronography, and. 299 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 9: I felt that they were concerned about what they were 300 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 9: concerned about. What I was concerned about, the young black 301 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 9: girls that I was seeing lost in the Delta, that 302 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 9: was being abused because of lack of education. Nothing could 303 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 9: keep me from worrying about it and doing everything I 304 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 9: could to make a difference. I had trouble sleeping at night, 305 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 9: but I was determined that we were going to do 306 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 9: something to make a difference. 307 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: Governor Clinton at least seemed to appreciate Elder's willingness to 308 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: dive headfirst into controversial issues, and when he became president, 309 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: he once again called on her to serve in his administration. 310 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 14: Doctor Joycelyn Elders, the former health commissioner of Arkansas now 311 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 14: President Clinton's choyce for Surgeon General of the United States. 312 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: Almost immediately, Elders became a lightning rod for scandal. A 313 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: few months into her tenure, she caused a media frenzy 314 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: by suggesting that the legalization of drugs could be good 315 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: for society. 316 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 9: And I do feel that we would marketly reduce our 317 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 9: crime rate if drugs were legalized. 318 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: And conservatives immediately jumped on Elders' comments. A right wing 319 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: lobbying group circulated petitions to request her dismissal. Eighty seven 320 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: House members signed a letter calling on Elders to resign. 321 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: Rush Limbaugh mocked her on his show. 322 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 15: Your Time Off for a Little Comic Relief, America's number 323 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 15: one national embarrassment speaks for herself. Here's Joycelynd Elders and 324 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 15: her theories on legalizing drugs. 325 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: Here's Elders responding to the criticism at the time. 326 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 16: Despite many of the comments and editory and reports that's 327 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 16: been about me, I'm still grateful because you see, if 328 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 16: I was walking around not saying anything that was at 329 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 16: all controversial and that was all neutral, first of all, 330 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 16: you wouldn't write about me. Secondly, if it was something 331 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 16: that was right and simple and easy and everybody accepted 332 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 16: it as a matter of fact, it would already be done. 333 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: Legalization may have been a pipe dream, but need to 334 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: exchange was at least a somewhat more realistic policy idea. 335 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: To Elders, It's potential for slowing the spread of HIV 336 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: was obvious. 337 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 9: If somebody who has HIV uses the needle and then 338 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 9: you use the same needle because she does say you 339 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 9: can't afford to buy them, well, then you were injecting 340 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 9: the virus into your body and you may not know 341 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 9: that for a year, two or ten. 342 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 8: So that was why Baby. 343 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 9: Bolt needle exchange program, and then that reduced a lot 344 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 9: of the HIV spread in a community. 345 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: As Surgeon General Elders says, she always supported needle exchange 346 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: and understood what it meant for programs to have to 347 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: operate without support from the federal government. 348 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 9: Some communities had really gotten tiny little grants, like from 349 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 9: churches and other places, and they were passing out train 350 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 9: needles from the trunk ofbec car. 351 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: During the campaign, Bill Clinton had indicated that he was 352 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: open to lifting the Reagan era funding ban on needle 353 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: exchange programs, but if the model was going to win 354 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: the administration's blessing, activists would need other players in Clinton's 355 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: orbit to push him on it. That included Donna Shalela, 356 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: Clinton's Secretary of Health and Human Services. 357 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 5: We saw needle exchange as a mitigation strategy to reduce 358 00:20:55,359 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 5: the incidents of AIDS and to save lives. Excuse me 359 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 5: if I could interrupt for one moment. I've got to 360 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 5: let him in here. He is you should know. My 361 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 5: dog is named Fauci. Really yeah, he's a rescue dog. 362 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: Hi Fauchi. 363 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 5: When I went to pick him up, they said he 364 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 5: had run into an Italian restaurant and he needed an 365 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 5: Italian name, and I said, I'll call him Fauci. Tony 366 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 5: said he'd been called worse. 367 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: Before she joined the administration, Donna Shalala had been the 368 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: chancellor of the University of Wisconsin. She says the job 369 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: prepared her for the pressure she faced from AIDS activists 370 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 1: as HHS secretary. 371 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 5: I knew that we were going to be pushed by 372 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 5: act UP and all of the groups who were in 373 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 5: a desperate state, So that was expected as part of 374 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 5: the job. 375 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 8: I was a political scientist. 376 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 5: I have been leading major research universities, so people getting 377 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 5: into my face was something that was expected. 378 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: During Clinton's first term, Salela enraged AIDS activists by suggesting 379 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: that more research was needed to determine whether the Needle 380 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: Exchange Funding Band should stay in place. The administration's stance 381 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: on the issue became a kind of litmus test for 382 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: a lot of activists, a sign that Clinton was willing 383 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: to slow walk certain policies that posed a political risk. 384 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: Here is a protester confronting Clinton about it at an 385 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: AIDS event. 386 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 17: There's been steps taken here advocated to be taken, like 387 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 17: legalizing needles have been talked about for three years? 388 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 7: Where have you been? Didn't you listen to what we 389 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 7: said before about what we've done? 390 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 18: Last night? 391 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: Skeptics of needle exchange continued to insist there wasn't enough 392 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: empirical evidence that the model worked and that it didn't 393 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: result in more people using drugs, But the opposition was 394 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: often about more than just data. For many, was rooted 395 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 1: in a fundamental concern at the core of American drug policy. 396 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: Agreeing to provide people with drug paraphernalia would mean acknowledging 397 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: that the zero tolerance, just say no approach to drugs 398 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: didn't work. It would basically mean throwing out the philosophical 399 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: underpinnings of the whole drug war. 400 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 14: There's no question that the right signal for the government 401 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 14: of the United States to send is to say to somebody, 402 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 14: if you're a drug addict and you need to use 403 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 14: intravenos drugs, come into a center and let us help 404 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 14: you get off drugs. 405 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: This is former House Speaker Knut Gingrich weighing in on 406 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: the needle exchange debate at a press conference. 407 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 14: That is the only message, we should give drug addicts, 408 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 14: but the government's job is to help you get off drugs. 409 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,479 Speaker 14: It is not the government's job to try to make 410 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 14: killing yourself marginally safer as you do it. 411 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't only Republicans who opposed the idea of undoing 412 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: the ban. Members of Clinton's own party were apprehensive too. 413 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 5: There was a debate within the Democratic Party. I mean, 414 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 5: you cannot say that this was just the Republicans. The 415 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 5: party itself was torn on the issue because of drug 416 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 5: addiction and because of crime related to drugs. 417 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: Not all prevention measures were so fraught, as HHS Secretary 418 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: Donna Shalala focused a lot on public health messaging through 419 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: popular culture. 420 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 19: Thank you all for coming AIDS is often thought of 421 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 19: as a hopeless problem. Today we are here to talk 422 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 19: about solutions. 423 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: In early nineteen ninety four, Shalala announced a prevention initiative 424 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: at the Clinton administration had developed with the CDC. It 425 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: would include a series of PSAs starring celebrities like Jason 426 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: Alexander and Martin Lawrence. 427 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 19: This campaign is focused on young adults because studies tell 428 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 19: us that young Americans are more sexually active than ever before, 429 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 19: and they are not taking proper precautions. 430 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 5: So it was very important for us to approach young people. 431 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 5: So we went to the entertainment industry, but mostly to 432 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 5: the raps and to the music industry. We literally needed 433 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 5: everybody the communicated with young people to educate the entire 434 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 5: society about AIDS. 435 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 17: I'm Anthony Ketis of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and 436 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 17: I've been naked on stage. I've been naked on magazine covers. 437 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 17: In fact, I was born naked, And of course I'm 438 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 17: naked whenever I have six. And what I have here 439 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 17: is a condom, a latex condom. I wear one whenever 440 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 17: I have six, not whenever it's. 441 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: The Clinton administration's media push coincided with another leap in 442 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: the growing public awareness of HIV and AIDS. Much like 443 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: Rock Hudson years earlier, several famous people disclosing their diagnoses 444 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: changed the public understanding of what HIV was and whom 445 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: it could affect. The most famous of these was NBA 446 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: legend Magic Johnson, who had revealed his diagnosis back in 447 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. 448 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 6: I think sometimes we think, well, only gay people can 449 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 6: get it, only is not going to happen to me. 450 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: And here I am saying that it can happen to anybody. 451 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: Even later, there was easy E from NWA, just. 452 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 11: Like Magic Josson when he thought it. You know well, 453 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 11: stuff like this happened. 454 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 20: Agency to come out speak and let other people wherever. 455 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 20: So you know what I'm saying, we can try to 456 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 20: contain this stuff that was getting bad, you know what. 457 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: There was also Pedro Zamora, the activist who appeared as 458 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: a housemaid on MTV is the Real World in nineteen 459 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: ninety four. 460 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 8: I will probably not see the AH thirty. 461 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 10: I will probably die. 462 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: As Elay dying. Even the President called, I just want 463 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: to tell you. 464 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 11: I was thinking about you, and tryan for He might 465 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 11: not be able to answer, but he understands everything. 466 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 17: Okay. 467 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: All these disclosures went a long way towards educating the 468 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: public about HIV risk and prevention, but activists were frustrated 469 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: that the policy changes Clinton had seemed to support as 470 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: a ended it weren't materializing faster in his presidency, and 471 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: after the nineteen ninety four midterm swept in a new 472 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: conservative Congress, the political possibilities seemed even more limited. As 473 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: the activist Sean Strube wrote at the time in his 474 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: magazine for people with HIV. This administration's priority is all 475 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: about image and media. As I write this, they are 476 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: cynically trying to have a press flurry of pseudo action 477 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: prior to World Aid's Day. As it turned out, World 478 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: Aid's Day in nineteen ninety four would end up generating 479 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: a lot of press for the Quinton administration, just not 480 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: in the way they had hoped. 481 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 4: This is World Age Day. There were ceremonies and observances 482 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 4: around the world, but very little in the way I've encouragement. 483 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: The seventh annual World Aid's Day took place on December one, 484 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. As part of the event, Surgeon General 485 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: Joycelyn Elders was invited to speak and answer questions from 486 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: the press at a United Nations forum. 487 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 8: Yeah. 488 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 9: I don't think the speech I gave was necessarily that earthshaking. 489 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 9: But a psychiatrist asked me about masturbation. 490 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 21: I think that that is something that it's a part 491 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 21: of human sexuality that perhaps should be taught, and I 492 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 21: feel that we have tried ignorance for a very long time, 493 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 21: and it's time we try education reguard to masturbation. 494 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: Elders didn't think anything of it. It was the kind 495 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: of thing she said all the time to all kinds 496 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: of audiences. 497 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: Doctor Joycelyn Elders proved once too often that speaking your mind, 498 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 4: especially on issues as sensitive a sex, education and sexuality, 499 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 4: could be very bad politics, especially with the Republicans breathing 500 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 4: down the President's neck as they are. 501 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: Within days, Elders was being pummeled in right wing media. 502 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 8: Why does the president keeper? I assume he shares our values. 503 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 14: I assume he thinks it's okay. 504 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: For Clinton and his political advisors. It was the last straw. 505 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: A little more than a week after she made the 506 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: comments about masturbation, Elders was forced to resign. 507 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 4: Doctor Elders was fired today by President Clinton. In a 508 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 4: letter to the Health Secretary Donachileela late this afternoon, doctor 509 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 4: Elders writes, President Clinton and I maintain our strong mutual 510 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 4: respect for each other. She also says that as a 511 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 4: private citizen, she intends to continue speaking out on the 512 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 4: public health causes that are as she puts it, dear 513 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 4: to her. 514 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: Here's Elders talking about her firing the week it happened 515 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: on this day show. 516 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 18: Yeah, I really thought that all of the comments I 517 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 18: made were true and you know, I think that the 518 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 18: country needs to approach many of these issues. And the 519 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 18: longer we wait, I feel, the more children we are 520 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 18: going to lose. And I don't feel that, you know, 521 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 18: I should start second guess in my life self today. 522 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: After she left Washington, Elders returned to her home state. 523 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: She became a professor at the University of Arkansas and 524 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: toured the country as a speaker and educator. 525 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 8: You know how I was. 526 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 9: I never tiptoed around very much. I just said what 527 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 9: I thought and believed. I was sorry, you know, to 528 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 9: have lost the position. Now I'm not saying that, but 529 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 9: the next five years so I was all over this country, 530 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 9: talks it all over the time. 531 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 8: Yeah. 532 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 9: In fact, that was all I did, was running around 533 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 9: running my mouth. 534 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: On one occasion, Elders told an audience that she regretted 535 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: not advocating more firmly for needle exchange while she was 536 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: in government. Politicians, she said, should drop all this crap 537 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: about not using federal money for needle exchange programs because 538 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: they don't want to support IVY drug use. Is it 539 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: all right? She asked to support death. 540 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome. 541 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety five, the year, after Joycelyn Elders was fired, 542 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: Clinton appointed a brand new, twenty three member Advisory Council 543 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: on HIV and AIDS. 544 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 6: I'd like to begin by thanking all of you for 545 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 6: your service on this advisory council. We need your advice, 546 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 6: your wisdom, your enthusiasm. You're urging an American najor service, 547 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 6: and I thank you for it very much. 548 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: As you know, both the Reagan and Bush administrations had 549 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: appointed their own advisory councils to make recommendations about the epidemic, 550 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: and both times members had resigned publicly because so little 551 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: of their advice was taken. Clinton's new council was meant 552 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: to signal that he was going to do things right 553 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: this time, and that, unlike his predecessors, he would actually 554 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: listen to the experts. One of the members of the 555 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: new AIDS council was a lawyer from Chicago who had 556 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: been a fundraiser for Clinton's ninety two campaign. His name 557 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: was Bob Fogel. 558 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 10: I was just a regular person. I've loved politics all 559 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 10: my life, and I had met Clinton and. 560 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 11: Really thought he was terrific. 561 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: After Clinton won, Fogel thought about trying to become an 562 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: ambassador but his wife nixed the idea of a family move. 563 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 10: So I looked at boards and commissions, and AIDS was 564 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 10: a big issue, and I thought, you know, I can 565 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 10: pivot away from being the trial lawyer guy. I can do, 566 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 10: hopefully something that would be useful and contributory to the 567 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 10: well being of our country. So I figured I would 568 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 10: ask if I could be appointed to the President's Advisory 569 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 10: Council and HIV AIDS. 570 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: When Fogel showed up to a hotel in Washington for 571 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: the council's first meeting, he realized right away that he 572 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: was the odd man out. 573 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 10: The night before our first official meeting and swearing in, 574 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 10: we made a circle in the little meeting room in 575 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 10: the basement area and introduced ourselves. I was almost a 576 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 10: little embarrassed at how little I really knew compared to 577 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 10: everybody else. 578 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: The other council members were medical professionals or had long 579 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: personal histories with AIDS activism. The person who introduced himself 580 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: right before Fogel was an activist with HIV who had 581 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: spoken at the Democratic National Convention. 582 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 10: One of the things he said was, you know what, 583 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 10: you know, we've been pushing Clinton to do stuff related 584 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 10: to AIDS make it a focus of his administration, and frankly, 585 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 10: he figured, he'll give the straight white guys in the 586 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 10: suits one more opportunity to get it, and if they don't, 587 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 10: then he would be done with them. 588 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: Then it was Fogel's turn to speak. 589 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 10: And I said, well, I'm one of those people, and 590 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 10: I'm here to learn, and if I end up getting it, 591 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 10: then there's really no reason why the straight white guys 592 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 10: in the suits in the White House shouldn't get it either. 593 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: As part of his work on the Advisory Council, Fogel 594 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: was briefed on the connection between intravenous drug use and HIV. 595 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: It was clearly a huge problem. By that point, ivy 596 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: drug use accounted for about a third of new HIV 597 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: cases in the US, But when Fogel learned about needle exchange, 598 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: he was extremely skeptical. 599 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 10: When I first heard about needle exchange, it was like, 600 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 10: are you kidding me? You want to give needles to 601 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 10: drug addicts. Aren't you promoting the use of drugs? There 602 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 10: must be a different or better way to deal with 603 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 10: this issue. 604 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: But as Fogel learned more, he started to take a 605 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: different view. Back home in Chicago, he met with an 606 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: activist and drug user who ran in exchange. 607 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 10: You know, I asked my I would say, straight white 608 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 10: guy in the suit sort of questions, you know, gosh, 609 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 10: you know, why are you doing this? And why does 610 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 10: this work? And what are the benefits? And aren't you 611 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 10: afraid of you know, those sorts of things, and so, 612 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 10: you know, it began to make sense. It wasn't just 613 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 10: giving needles to drug addicts. It was perhaps getting some 614 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 10: of them into drug treatment, and it was certainly counseling 615 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 10: them on the dangers and risk of age and if 616 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 10: they had aids, perhaps into some treatment programs for that 617 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 10: as well. 618 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: Back in Oakland, Ricky Bluthenthal continued to run his needle exchange. 619 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: Over time, he had become an expert on harm reduction, 620 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: the idea that drug policy should be focused on reducing 621 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: the negative consequences of drug use as much as possible, 622 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: rather than trying to punish or restrict people out of addiction. 623 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: Bluthenthal felt that the scientific evidence and the moral imperative 624 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: were aligned, and if other people couldn't see that, then 625 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily worth trying to engage with them. 626 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 11: The people arguing against these programs aren't even in the 627 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 11: same universe as far as I'm concerned. They're dealing with 628 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 11: a set of problems that have nothing to do with 629 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 11: the individual that I'm talking to. Cross the way. They're 630 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 11: living in a world that's full of moral fictions and 631 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 11: fear that misunderstand the harm that's done by substances and communities. 632 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: From Bluthenthal's perspective, those who opposed needle exchange on moral 633 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: grounds were simply not interested in HIV prevention. 634 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 11: The people arguing against us were fine with people dying 635 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 11: from HIV AIDS. There's no a solution, right, so they're like, oh, 636 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 11: we don't want people to use drugs. Well that's great, 637 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 11: you know, there's no easy way to do that. And 638 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 11: the things that you've been doing at that point for 639 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,439 Speaker 11: twenty years we now know definitively don't help. 640 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: But as long as the laws didn't change, need to 641 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: exchange volunteers continued to risk arrest. In nineteen ninety five, 642 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: Bluthenthal and several of his colleagues went on trial for 643 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 1: distributing drug paraphernalia. Blutenthal says he was confident the jurors 644 00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: would find him to be a sympathetic defender. 645 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 11: I was a young African American man getting a PhD 646 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 11: at UC Berkeley, and I had a bunch of evidence 647 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 11: on my side, So you know, I think there were 648 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 11: a lot of people in the jury box you're reading 649 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 11: for me. 650 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: After deliberating for four hours, the jury found Luthenthal and 651 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,879 Speaker 1: his colleagues not guilty on the basis that their work 652 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,959 Speaker 1: was a benefit to society. It was the third time 653 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: the County DA had tried and failed to prosecute needle 654 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: exchange activists. For all the worry that needle exchange was 655 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: politically deadly, it seemed to have grassroots support within the 656 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: communities that actually had programs, but reversing the ban on 657 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: federal funds still didn't seem to be a priority. 658 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,959 Speaker 6: Never again, should Washington put politics and party above law 659 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 6: and order. 660 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: From the start of his presidency, Clinton had always gone 661 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: to great lengths to position himself as a proponent of 662 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: law and order, not some hippie, as he was often portrayed, 663 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: but someone who took the drug war seriously, just like 664 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: Reagan and Nick and had. After Republicans took control of 665 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 1: the House and Senate, Clinton felt he had even less 666 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 1: room to take chances on progressive policies. As he prepared 667 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: to run for a second term, he decided to appoint 668 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: a new DRUGSAR, a retired general named Barry McCaffrey, who 669 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 1: was a hardliner on drug policy. For now, at least, 670 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: Reagan's ban on funding for needle exchange would remain firmly 671 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:26,760 Speaker 1: in place. 672 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 5: Are scientists on the verge of making AIDS a manageable disease. 673 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: There was positive news on that issue, but some caution too. 674 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: When the Triple Cocktail was announced in nineteen ninety six, 675 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: the whole outlook of the AIDS epidemic shifted. Over the 676 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: following year, the mortality rate for people with AIDS in 677 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: the US dropped by almost fifty percent. 678 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 6: We have a lot to celebrate. For the first time 679 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 6: since the epidemic began, deaths due to AIDS in the 680 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,879 Speaker 6: United States have declined for the first time. Therefore, there 681 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 6: is hope that we can actually defeat AIDS. 682 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: And yet, there were still more than fifty thousand new 683 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: cases diagnosed that year, and the racial disparities were only 684 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: getting more stark. In nineteen ninety six, forty one percent 685 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: of infections were diagnosed in Black Americans, even though they 686 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: only made up about thirteen percent of the country's population. 687 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,919 Speaker 14: More and more African American women are being infected through 688 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 14: heterosexual contact. 689 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: Their children are also at risk. In nineteen ninety seven, 690 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: the CDC released a major study concluding that IV drug 691 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: use was the primary driver of new HIV infections. Expanding 692 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: needle exchange and reversing the ban on federal money had 693 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: never seemed more urgent. Here again is Bob Fogel, the 694 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: trial lawyer who served on Clinton's Council on HIV and AIDS. 695 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 10: The benefits of federal funding is that bypasses the states, 696 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 10: the governors or the legislatures, and programs could be set 697 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 10: up where needed in cities and states where it otherwise 698 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 10: wouldn't occur. And the federal government has the deepest pockets 699 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 10: you know. For the federal government to put five hundred 700 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 10: million dollars or one hundred and fifty million dollars into 701 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 10: natal exchange programs would have been huge. I mean, they 702 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 10: could have started programs and a lot of major cities 703 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 10: across the country. 704 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: The President's Advisory Council on HIV AIDS was in complete 705 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 1: agreement that the federal government should fund needle exchange. They 706 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: had said as much in a formal recommendation, but the 707 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: White House made no moves to follow through. Fogel was 708 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: losing his patients, and. 709 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 10: The question is, why aren't they doing something so important? 710 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 10: Why aren't they acting? Why aren't they responding? I mean, 711 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 10: are we just you know, in my head, are we 712 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 10: just a phony front? And you know, at that point, 713 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 10: it's like, are we wasting our time? 714 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 12: You know? 715 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 10: And if they're not going to follow our recommendations, let 716 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 10: alone this one in particular, then let's just quit wasting 717 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 10: you know, time and money. So yeah, I was pissed. 718 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: Frustrations reached a boiling point at a council meeting in 719 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: July of nineteen ninety seven. Members of Act UP interrupted 720 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: the meeting, demanding faster movement on a wide variety of issues. 721 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: After the protest subsided, Fogel spoke up in solidarity. 722 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,959 Speaker 10: And I raised my hand and I said, look, we've 723 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 10: made multiple recommendations on this that appear to be ignored. 724 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 10: No action is being taken. There's no good reason for 725 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 10: not taking action, and perhaps maybe what we ought to 726 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,720 Speaker 10: do is just resign on mass in protest, and somebody 727 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 10: across the room yelled, I second the motion. The press 728 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 10: people that covered our meetings, you know, jumped up like 729 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 10: holy shit. You know, Fogel has just moved that the 730 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 10: council resign and protest over their failure to certify needle 731 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 10: exchange programs. 732 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: After the meeting ended, the council chairman pulled Fogel aside. 733 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 10: And said, great job. This is terrific. You know, the 734 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 10: press is going to run with this. This is really 735 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 10: going to put pressure on them. 736 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 5: Some harsh criticism today for the President and it comes 737 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,720 Speaker 5: from his own advisors on AIDS. 738 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 2: Especially critical of the administration's failure to fund programs for 739 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,919 Speaker 2: drug addicts to exchange dirty syringes for clean ones to help. 740 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 10: I remember my mother called me a few days later. 741 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 10: She told me she read about me in the Springfield 742 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 10: Union and which is in Springfield, Massachusetts, and she was 743 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 10: so proud of me. I said, Mom, I want to 744 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 10: give needles to drug addicts. She said, well, if you 745 00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 10: think it's the right thing to do, I'm for it. 746 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: In the spring of nineteen ninety eight, the year's long 747 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: pressure campaign on Clinton to reverse the funding ban appeared 748 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 1: to finally be working. It had been almost a decade 749 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: since the ban was put in place and it was 750 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: set to expire soon. If the administration wanted to make 751 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: a change, it seemed like the perfect moment. HHS Secretary 752 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: Donna Shalela was ready to certify the research required to 753 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: change the policy to confirm that needle exchange programs did 754 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: reduce the spread of HIV and that they didn't increase 755 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 1: drug use. In private, Shalalela tried to convince the President 756 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: that the scientific basis for the policy was unimpeachable. 757 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 5: I made every argument I possibly could. He knew what 758 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 5: the arguments were. He had a letter in his hand 759 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 5: from all the scientific leaders and public health leaders of 760 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 5: the department. 761 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: Still Clinton wouldn't commit. At one point, Shilela says the 762 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: White House urged her to hold off on certifying the research. Instead, 763 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,919 Speaker 1: they wanted her to suggest that the efficacy of needle 764 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: exchange was still up for debate. 765 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 5: Someone from the White House called over and said, tell 766 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 5: Schalela to announce that we needed more research. And I said, 767 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,240 Speaker 5: I will not repeat on this program what I said, 768 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 5: but basically I said, no, that was ridiculous. I was 769 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,760 Speaker 5: not going to say the researchers we needed more research. 770 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 5: When they said the research was clear. This was a 771 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 5: matter of integrity for the apartment and for me personally. 772 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: Shalela was confident that the President understood the science just 773 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: as clearly as she did. If anything was preventing him 774 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 1: from embracing needle exchange, it wasn't the quality of the research. 775 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 1: It was politics. 776 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 8: Delay. 777 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 5: Delay meant to me they we were making a political calculation. 778 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,879 Speaker 5: It wasn't substantive, and the call that maybe Shililah should 779 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 5: say we need more research was the tip off. 780 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 1: Shaleala was resolved to publicly validate the idea of needle exchange, 781 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: regardless of what Clinton decided to do, so her office 782 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: scheduled the press conference from Monday, April twentieth. Schalela's hope 783 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: was that by the time she took the podium, Clinton 784 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 1: would have made up his mind to undo the ban. 785 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 4: The President could lift that ban if he could certify 786 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 4: with scientific evidence that such programs reduced the rate of 787 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 4: HIV infection without encouraging drug use. 788 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,320 Speaker 1: Scientists and activists who had been advocating for needle exchange 789 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: were told to expect good news, but Shilala says she 790 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: wasn't sure what the president's decision would ultimately be. 791 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 5: The press conference was one or the other. I warned 792 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,799 Speaker 5: everybody before the press conference that it was possible the 793 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,360 Speaker 5: President would say no. 794 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,280 Speaker 1: It turned out that Shilala was right to temper expectations. 795 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: Less than an hour before the press conference, HHS was 796 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: contacted by the White House to say that the President 797 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: would be keeping the ban in place. The department scrambled 798 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: to adjust its plans, delaying its announcement by three hours. 799 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 1: That day, Bob Vogel was with his brother at a 800 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: Red Sox game in Fenway Park when he received a 801 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 1: page to join a conference call. He took it in 802 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: the parking lot. 803 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 10: We got on the call and the news was broken 804 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 10: that the final decision had been made that there would 805 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 10: not be a formal certification. And I would say I 806 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 10: was shocked. I mean, it just seemed like, and I 807 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 10: hate to use this word so but like a flip flop. 808 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:43,799 Speaker 10: We were heading down this road and suddenly they chickened out. 809 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 10: I guess is how I would describe it. It was 810 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 10: very disappointing. 811 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 1: At the press conference, Secretary Shalala did what she had 812 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: come to do and certified the research findings required to 813 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 1: overturn the ban, but as she explained to reporters, the 814 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,120 Speaker 1: ban itself was staying put. 815 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 4: In Washington to day, the Clint administration has decided to 816 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 4: maintain the ban on using federal funds to pay for 817 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,320 Speaker 4: needle exchange programs. Those are the ones designed to prevent 818 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 4: the spread of AIDS. 819 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 5: It was painful. It was painful because the evidence was 820 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 5: so clear. It was heartbreaking for me to face the 821 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 5: scientist and say. The President said, no, I didn't like it. 822 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,320 Speaker 5: I didn't like transmitting it, but he made the decision. 823 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,279 Speaker 4: The Secretary of Health and Human Services, Dona Chalela, said 824 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 4: there is evidence that the programs do reduce the transmission 825 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 4: of HIV without significantly increasing drug use, but she said 826 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 4: that state and local governments have to pay for the programs. 827 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 10: I suppose it was a compromise, you know. I was shocked. 828 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 10: I wished they had bigger balls than that, but that 829 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 10: was better than silence. 830 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 1: Journalists reported that scientists seated next to Shalala looked visibly uncomfortable. 831 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 1: I wish I could play you some audio from the 832 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,879 Speaker 1: event itself, but it was limited to print reporters only. 833 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 1: Here's Chilela explaining the compromise A few days later. 834 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 5: Federal money doesn't pay for everything that's important in this country, 835 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 5: and in this case, the administration made the decision not 836 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,120 Speaker 5: to make this ineligible activity under prevention funds. The most 837 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 5: important message today is that the science is now there 838 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 5: so that local communities ought to look at their strategies 839 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 5: and they can then consider using a needle exchange program 840 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 5: as part of that overall strategy. It was the worst 841 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 5: moment in my HHS leadership in terms of a policy decision. 842 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 5: I thought it was the most dangerous thing that Congress 843 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,960 Speaker 5: and the President could do. I mean, we had a 844 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:55,080 Speaker 5: strategy that would save lives, save people from getting infected, 845 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 5: and we ought. 846 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 10: To use it. 847 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 1: There are a few different theories about why Clinton came 848 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 1: out against needo exchange at the last minute. One blames 849 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,120 Speaker 1: his drugs are Barry McCaffrey, who cornered the President on 850 00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,359 Speaker 1: Air Force one just before the press conference and made 851 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 1: the case that changing the rule would condone drug use. 852 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: Clinton would later say he believed Congress would simply pass 853 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,239 Speaker 1: a new funding ban if he lifted the old one, 854 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 1: but according to Donna Shalela, his decision had more to 855 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,400 Speaker 1: do with pressure from Senate Democrats than anything else. 856 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 5: Bill Clinton did it under political pressure because Democrats thought 857 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,440 Speaker 5: they were going to have trouble getting re elected. There 858 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 5: were Democrats that bought the argument that it would enable 859 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 5: drug use. 860 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,720 Speaker 1: Clinton's waffling led to a significant increase in national media 861 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,480 Speaker 1: coverage of needle exchange miss America. In nineteen ninety eight, 862 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 1: Kate Shindle spoke publicly about her personal evolution on the issue. 863 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,719 Speaker 8: I was very much against these pro when I first 864 00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:01,799 Speaker 8: became Miss America. 865 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,320 Speaker 1: It's a really had issue as far as. 866 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,719 Speaker 19: Government is concerned right now, because there is that catchphrase 867 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:08,799 Speaker 19: needle exchange, and unfortunately there are a lot of people 868 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:10,239 Speaker 19: that don't read past the headlines. 869 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 1: And I was sort of guilty of that. But then 870 00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:13,440 Speaker 1: I was enlightened. 871 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 20: I guess. 872 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: Four years later Quinton said he had been wrong not 873 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: to lift the ban, and about fourteen years after that, 874 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:26,120 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, Congress quietly got rid of it. The 875 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,799 Speaker 1: new policy made it possible for federal funds to be 876 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,600 Speaker 1: used for anything a needle exchange program needed, except the 877 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:51,480 Speaker 1: syringes themselves. As we finish our work on this podcast, 878 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: there's still no vaccine for HIV, and there's still no 879 00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,239 Speaker 1: cure for AIDS. More recent medical innovations like PREP made 880 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 1: it much easier for people to have sex safely, and 881 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,279 Speaker 1: treatments for people with HIV and AIDS have allowed many 882 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:10,480 Speaker 1: to live with undetectable viral levels. And yet the UN 883 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 1: estimates that of the nearly forty million people worldwide who 884 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,000 Speaker 1: were living with HIV in twenty twenty, a quarter did 885 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,960 Speaker 1: not have access to effective treatment. The trends that emerged 886 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,920 Speaker 1: in the nineties have also deepened the racial disparities and 887 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,440 Speaker 1: the disproportionate impact on drug users. Meanwhile, most of us 888 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,839 Speaker 1: move through the world not thinking very much at all 889 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,279 Speaker 1: about AIDS. It's kind of like the Ozone layer or 890 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 1: Save the Whales, an issue people used to think it 891 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:43,400 Speaker 1: was important to care about. One thing that's become obvious 892 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,960 Speaker 1: to me during the COVID pandemic is how big a 893 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,319 Speaker 1: difference visibility makes if someone you know gets sick. If 894 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 1: you can hear the ambulances in the street, you pay 895 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: more attention, You're more willing to take precautions. Then as 896 00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,680 Speaker 1: soon as the disease is out of sight, it becomes 897 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:09,960 Speaker 1: incredibly easy to pretend it's not happening at all. The 898 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,960 Speaker 1: people we spoke to for this podcast the ones who 899 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,520 Speaker 1: witnessed the beginning of AIDS from up close don't need 900 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,000 Speaker 1: to be reminded that the story does not yet have 901 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,360 Speaker 1: an ending. Many of them told us they hoped to 902 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,759 Speaker 1: live long enough to see the next big breakthrough. You know, 903 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,640 Speaker 1: the work is essentially interminable until we have a cure 904 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:30,480 Speaker 1: in a vaccine. 905 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:32,800 Speaker 8: So we're still working on those same things. 906 00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 10: Forty years later. 907 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,760 Speaker 7: I'm still here and got the treatments, waiting for that cure, 908 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 7: waiting for that vaccine, but still hopeful and still curious. 909 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:44,520 Speaker 8: We've come a long way. 910 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,239 Speaker 9: We've made a lot of progress on this disease, so 911 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,799 Speaker 9: we can eradicate the spars. So back to me is 912 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,880 Speaker 9: what I would really that would be my dream. That's 913 00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:58,400 Speaker 9: what I've like happened. 914 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,480 Speaker 20: We've lost so many people, We've lost so many lives. 915 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,640 Speaker 20: We have to remember this. We have to remember the struggle, 916 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,640 Speaker 20: because it's only in remembering the struggle that you understand 917 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 20: that you can fight, that you must fight. 918 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,520 Speaker 13: What patients are asked on and asked me because I 919 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,320 Speaker 13: start having a lot of gray hair, white hair, whatever. 920 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 13: They're getting nervous that I may have a retirement in 921 00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,319 Speaker 13: my future, and so what I try to do to 922 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 13: assuage their concerns and fear is that You've got me 923 00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:35,759 Speaker 13: from the very first case in New York. You've got 924 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:40,600 Speaker 13: me until hopefully the very last case, after a cure 925 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 13: has developed and I get to administer it to all 926 00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 13: of my patients, and then I'll be happy to step down. 927 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 10: And that's the way I leave it. 928 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:55,640 Speaker 13: It's a I guess it's a fantasy. 929 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: For all the people who survived those years. There are 930 00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,640 Speaker 1: so many who didn't. I want to leave you with 931 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,080 Speaker 1: a c from the funeral of Bobby Campbell. He was 932 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 1: the first person with AIDS you heard in the series, 933 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,680 Speaker 1: the nurse from San Francisco who turned himself into a 934 00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:12,880 Speaker 1: poster boy for the disease. When Campbell died in nineteen 935 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,760 Speaker 1: eighty four, he was remembered with a memorial service attended 936 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:21,360 Speaker 1: by a thousand friends, family members, and neighbors. One of 937 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,640 Speaker 1: the people who spoke was Campbell's partner, Bobby Hilliard. 938 00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,320 Speaker 12: When Bobby was an intensive care I left my backpack 939 00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,160 Speaker 12: out in the waiting room and I was in the 940 00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:38,719 Speaker 12: room with him. After he died, I went back to 941 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,640 Speaker 12: the waiting room and sitting on top of the backpack 942 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,760 Speaker 12: was a little bell that I had never seen before, 943 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:46,760 Speaker 12: and someone left there and I've been carrying it around 944 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,279 Speaker 12: in my pocket since then, and I'd like to say 945 00:54:51,280 --> 00:55:38,520 Speaker 12: one more thing before ringing it. Love after Death for Bobby. 946 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:27,200 Speaker 1: Fiasco is presented by Audible Originals and Prologue Projects. The 947 00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:30,760 Speaker 1: show is produced by Andrew Parsons, Sam Graham Felsen, Madeline 948 00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:35,480 Speaker 1: kaplan Ulla Culpa and me Leon Nafock. Our researcher is 949 00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:40,040 Speaker 1: Francis Carr. Editorial support from Jessica Miller and Norah waswas 950 00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:45,240 Speaker 1: archival research by Michelle Sullivan. This season's music is composed 951 00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,320 Speaker 1: by Edith Mudge. Additional music by Nick Silvester of God Mode, 952 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,240 Speaker 1: Joel Saint, Julian and Dan English, Noah Hect and Joe Valley. 953 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Spatial Relations, Music licensing courtesy 954 00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: of Anthony Roman. Audio mixed by Erica Wong with additional 955 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,680 Speaker 1: support from Selina Urabe. Our artwork is designed by Teddy 956 00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,520 Speaker 1: Blanks at Chips and Y. David Blum is the editor 957 00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,799 Speaker 1: in chief of Audible Originals. Mike Charzik is the Vice 958 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:17,680 Speaker 1: president of Audible Studios. Zach Ross is Head of Acquisition 959 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: and Development for Audible. Thanks to Peter Yassi, Percy Everlin, 960 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:27,560 Speaker 1: Arlene Arevelo, Michael Helquist, Carrie Baker, Alice Gregory, Jannis Kolpa, 961 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,000 Speaker 1: Chris Robi, Stephen Fisher, and everyone at Audible