WEBVTT - Urbanization 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:06.120 Hello, Welcome to the New Economy. I'm Stephanie Flanders, head 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:12.719 of Bloomberg Economics. Urbanization is high on the agenda at 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.360 the New Economy Forum in Singapore because Mike Bloomberg, as 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.560 we know, has a bit of a thing about cities. 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:23.000 He thinks they can often succeed where national governments have failed. 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.080 But there's a dark side to urbanization as well, and 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:29.600 by that I don't just mean the pollution and the smog. 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.000 The risk today is that the world's going to be 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:38.000 increasingly divided between people living in hyper connected, hyper successful 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.720 cities and those that are stuck outside. A lot of 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.960 different things contributed to Britain voting to leaving the European 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:47.720 Union in the election of Donald Trump in the US, 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:52.280 but you can't help noticing many of the places most 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.080 likely to vote for Brexit or Trump were smaller cities 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.280 and towns, places where many people felt they've been left mind. 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:03.560 I'm really pleased we're going to have a discussion about 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.679 some of these issues later with two of Bloomberg Economic 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:11.160 Star reporters, US Economy reporter Genus Smellick and Jill Ward. 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.040 Now Jill usually covers the UK, but we've just said 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:16.280 it to India to get a taste of something different. 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:19.600 After she'd unpacked her bags, I sent her to go 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.800 find out what the challenges of urbanization look like in 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:36.000 downtown New Delhi. I've been living in Delhi for over 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.280 a month now and the extreme effects of urbanization have 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.880 become a part of daily life today. Like many days, 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.679 Deli's air pollution is the worst out of any city 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.520 in the world. I'm a commute into work. The view 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.160 of India Gate is getting more and more obscured by 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.400 thick smog, which gets especially bad in the winter months. 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.280 Flight struggle to take off because of bad visibility. The 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:00.240 roads are packed and I spend a lot out of 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:04.200 time stuck in traffic jams. Inequality is starkly visible in 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.640 the slums right next to luxury hotels and palatial homes. 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.919 The challenge, both in India and across the globe is 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.079 to build the infrastructure and services necessary to keep pace 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:22.840 with rapidly growing urban areas. The Delhi's population, which currently 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.120 stands at twenty nine million, is forecast to outstrip Tokyo 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.200 is to become the biggest maga city in the world 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.760 in about a decade. Across the globe. Percent of the 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.360 world's population now lives in urban areas, and that's expected 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:37.520 to increase to sixty eight percent by the middle of 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:42.840 the century. The concern amongst economists is that if managed badly, 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.800 urbanization will exacerbate the global divide between the halves and 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.880 the have nots, leading to social unrest in the US 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.400 and Europe, city dwellers are already being priced out of 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:59.000 ever more expensive urban housing. For American urbanist Richard Florida, 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.920 with growing geographic split is the greatest political crisis of 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:07.800 our time in a global environment, just being urbanized and 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.480 having urbanization doesn't mean that you're going to lift all 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.160 or even many boats, and that what what tends to 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.240 happen is that you tend to get a very lopsided 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.560 or spiky or winner take all kinds of urbanizations. We 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.880 face a new urban crisis of mounting segregation, mounting poverty, 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.360 massive concentrated disadvantage. Um. It's incumbent on all of us 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.079 to wake up to the fact that this geographic divide, 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.720 this spatial inequality, this geography of has and has not 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:38.920 just creating the greatest political backlash and the greatest political 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:45.840 crisis of our time. In India, the government is trying 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.680 to act quickly to keep up with a challenge. Prime 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:50.880 Minister in a Render Moody has set a series of 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:55.640 ambitious targets like providing housing for all two. He wants 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.080 to build sewage and drainage facilities across India and create 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:03.040 so called smart cities using technology to help improve urban 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:08.280 infrastructure for our Deep Singh Poury, India's Minister for Housing 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.960 and Urban Affairs, Rapid growth and cities means building on 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.640 a massive scale over cups of child his office, he 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.680 told me India needs to build about one Chicago a year. 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.200 If you look at the history of what happened in 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:28.080 the past, we subjected our urban spaces to neglect. That's 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.120 putting in mildly. I normally use the word we subjected 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.080 the urban space to criminal neglect. We we were preoccupied 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:39.000 with rural development, with agriculture. Now that's important, but the 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.640 fact is that today our cities provide for more than 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:53.320 two thirds of our GDP of our tax revenues, and 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.120 this will increase, so you will have more and more 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.680 people coming into cities. So you need to build the redeveloped, 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.800 and you need to build green and you need to 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:12.400 build Brazilian structures. Our estimate is that between now and 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.719 we need to build something like seven to nine million 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:24.000 square meters of urban space every year, which means one 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:29.680 Chicago every year between now and Can this be done? 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.039 I don't think that's an appropriate question. You have no 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.599 option but to do it. I visited a Flagship's smart 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:39.160 city projects, a housing re development for government employees in 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.480 central Jelly called East to Buy the Guard. It's one 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.760 of seven similar projects in the capital where fourteen story 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.240 towers are being built through place two story houses built 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.680 decades ago, said to be completed next year. The new 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.240 apartments will double the amounts of families living on the 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.720 eight seven eight o'clock to more than four and a 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:02.120 half thousand, and they included mentally friendly features like rainwater 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.760 harvesting and on site waste processing. While getting a tour 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.320 of the site, I noticed several huge environmental themed paintings 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.680 on the side of some buildings, like birds, flowers and 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.480 a yogi surrounded by branches in the middle of the 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:20.039 muddy and dusty construction work. So I guess for the 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.479 five families that are living here now, they can use 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.320 over two hundred families living in slums on the site 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.200 were relocated about fifteen miles away. Huge metal barriers now 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.320 surround the construction area, and once complete, it will be 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:43.400 a gated community. Urban planners and environmental researchers are unimpressed 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:46.640 with the project. It's faced several cases in court for 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:51.279 lack of traffic and environmental assessments. It also sits on 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.800 the Ring Road, which circles the Sindewy Center and is 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:59.120 one of the busiest in Delhi. What's more, almost two 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.760 thousand trees were down on the site while the company 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.280 building the complex and has planted day ones. Critics say 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:09.120 they're mostly decorative. Building a ten tho space parking lot 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.080 beneath the buildings will make it difficult to recreate a 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.160 meaningful green space, they say, and it clicks at risk 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.280 an important supply of water that's vital in a city 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.040 that may run out of ground water as soon as 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.880 the construction is being funded by the sale of commercial 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.920 space on the site, but Deli's High Court ruled in 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.640 August that some of it can't be handed over since 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.400 questions remain over how water will be supplied and traffic managed. 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.520 Delhiites have rallied against the project on social media with 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.680 hashtags like my right to breathe a Deli trees. S 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:45.680 os I sat down with Canchy Coli, an environmental researcher 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.400 at the Center for Policy Research, who pointed out a 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:54.440 multitude of issues for the SUP just reeling with water crisis. 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:59.000 We are these projects are destroying water sources. That is 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.560 dealing with it. We should. We're talking about a construction 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.760 project that is increading increasing both dust as well as UM, 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.960 you know, impacting air quality and our city that is 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:15.320 actually needs more green spaces bots for both for public 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.560 use as well as you know, mitigating impacts of both 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:23.080 pollution as well as heat. UH. These projects, you know, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.240 land up replacing those with ornamental trees and landscape gardens 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.560 which have we serve no purpose both with us when 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.480 it comes to air pollution management as well as UH 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:38.199 reducing heat particulars, these are acute problem in the city 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:42.960 which these projects are actually aggravating more than mitigating. So 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.640 we need we need the development in the city, or 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.800 need development or re development the city that helps you 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:59.960 address these problems rather than aggravate these problems. The albums 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.720 Planners I spoke with about the project, agrieved that Delhi 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.320 needs more development, but perhaps done in a more inclusive way, 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.240 one that takes into account the context of the rest 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:13.239 of the city. In India, housing hasn't kept paceful population 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.319 growth and environmental issues have lagged. According to Samia Gluliyani, 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.600 who leads work on sustainable development at the World Bank, 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.559 that means that the clients of economic returns that could 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:30.120 come from urbanization haven't been fully realized. Urbanization has helped 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.200 alleviate poverty in India, she says, but it's more and 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.640 more people rise above the poverty line. They're landing in 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.840 a pool that's vulnerable and not quite middle class. Yet 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.720 the rich, meanwhile, are getting richer, while for the pours 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.280 of the poor, non monetary aspects of poverty have actually risen. 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.400 Many don't have access to basic services like housing, education, 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:56.080 and health. That said Enrico Already at the University of California, Berkeley, 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.560 points out that india Is huge informal housing sector at 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.040 least allows poor Indians to get close enough to job 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:07.240 dense urban areas to benefit from the economic opportunities. India 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.960 also makes it hard to develop new housing formal new housing, 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:14.560 but then On the other hand, there's a lot of 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:18.160 informality in the housing factory in India that circumvents that. 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.280 Islam as being one extreme case, but there are there 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:27.120 are all sorts of intermediate housing arrangement between Islam and 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:37.319 formal legal housing development. The solution to the challenges of urbanization, 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:42.400 economists say lies in devolving power more locally and promoting inclusivity, 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.200 and there has been some success in that regard. In Shiwa, 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:48.640 a city in northern India where the taps were in 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.560 dry this summer, the state government has embarked on a 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:53.960 set of reforms to move the water system from the 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:57.440 state managed authority to the city itself, which could prove 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.520 a step in the right direction in the future. Latch 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.720 Wals depend on how Birth and Cities has managed. Said, 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.040 the only way we can really fix our problems is 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:13.760 by acting locally. We've revitalized cities from Pittsburgh to Birmingham 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:16.959 by foraging local public private partnerships and getting to work 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.480 to make our cities better. We need a better science 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.720 of city. It's a big shift, but I think we're there. 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.719 So I've brought Jill Ward up here to Dubai with 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:31.880 me and We're sitting in Bloomberg's Dubai A newsroom and 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.319 we're going to be joined by our US economy reporter, 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.600 Gina Smilik, who is sitting in our Boston office, and 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.080 she's taken a particular interest in the rise of cities 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.960 over the last year or two. Even as she's covering 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:48.480 the federal reserves, she's also been interested in how urbanization 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.280 and growth of cities has been feeding into not just 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.120 economic growth in the US, but also inequality. So, Gina, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.560 thanks for joining us. You've been looking at the US picture. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:00.640 I want to tell us how you got interested in 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:05.000 cities and their potential impact on the economy. Yeah. Absolutely so. 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.720 I think that two main things got me interested in cities. 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.240 First was just that I read a lot of economic research, 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.520 and this became a major strain starting a couple of 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:20.079 years ago of inquiry for a couple of different researchers, 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.760 including Enrico Moretti over it UC Berkeley, just this idea 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:28.320 that cities are both these areas that foster intense productivity, 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:33.640 really dynamic economies, fast progress, and real creativity. But at 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.720 the same time, because that density can be sort of 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.640 prohibitive if it's cost prohibitive for folks to move there, 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.200 they can also foster in equality, and so he started 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.400 looking at those issues and I was quite interested in 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.280 that line of research. And then the election happened, and 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.880 I think that really brought home for me, and I 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.280 think for a lot of people this idea that the 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.319 cities in America were just diverging entirely, both socially and 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.040 economically from the rest death country. And I think you 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:02.800 can see that really clearly if you look at a 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:06.320 voting map, because the cities are just often sort of 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.520 dots of blue and oceans of red. And also, I 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.880 think it was just interesting that we had sort of 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.960 this national conversation around the election where we realize that 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.440 you're even sort of the society you hang out in 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.920 and the things you eat and the things you watch 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.360 on television are different in cities than they are relative 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.520 to sort of the more rural areas like where my 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.240 my parents still live and where I grew up, and 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.160 so that I think that was really interesting. It made 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.800 me very interested in how the sort of urbanization of 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:39.600 America is reshaping how our economies work in the twenty 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.360 one century. I think that's really interesting because it's something 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.160 we've come up against in the UK as well. We 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.640 had years and years of thinking of the great problem 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.440 cases being those big old inner cities, whether it was 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.520 Detroit or in the UK it would have been some 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.520 of the old mining towns, or Sheffield or sort of Manchester. 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.160 And then those cities have actually had a lot of 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.120 development and people have moved back into the city and 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.520 we've sort of thought, okay, good, that's that that regional 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:09.640 problem has been somewhat helped. But in the meantime, there's 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.120 all of these towns that have sort of fallen by 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.160 the wayside, that haven't had that kind of regeneration, and 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:22.320 yet the gap between them has grown even more. Now. Jill, 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.480 you've I mean, you've got an interesting experience because until 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:27.600 a few weeks ago you were living in North London, 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.760 one of the more gentrified bits of London, if I'm 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.400 allowed to say that, and then you've you're now in 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.960 in Delhi, which is slightly different from the Mumbai is 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.880 where everything is completely crazy and on a very wide, 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:44.120 on a crazy scale of frenetic activity in India. But 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.560 I think Delhi probably comes close certainly a big contrast 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.560 with London. Those some of those relocations that you were 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:54.120 we were hearing about in the in the program. You know, 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.280 quite a different feel to the regeneration that we've seen 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.440 in places like Pittsburgh. So, yeah, Delhi is a bit 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.040 less crazy than Mumbai, I suppose, in the sense that 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.680 there's actually quite a lot of green space in the 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.240 center of the city. Um, it's kind of shaped like 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.440 a doughnut in terms of the center is very green, 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.000 and then once you get to the outskirts, starting at 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.440 the Ring Road which circles the city, it gets much 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:23.760 more built up. We were talking about the this regeneration 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.400 or the redevelopment plan that you've been engaging with. You know, 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.840 it's quite quite a different feel from the equivalent thing 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.280 that you might have, certainly in the UK, where that 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.960 the developers would be forced to have a certain amount 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:39.720 of affordable housing and be a little bit inclusive. There's 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.800 no no pretense to inclusion in this place, is there. 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:47.680 Absolutely so. It will be a gated community and there 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.240 were actually about over two thirty families living in slums 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.560 on the site before they started construction in that have 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.640 just been relocated to kind of the southwest outskirts of 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.160 the city. About fifteen miles away. So that's been one 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:08.360 big criticism when I speak with economists, architects, even urban 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.840 planners who say, really, this, this could be an opportunity 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.120 to lead to better integration in what is actually a 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.640 really prime location for Delhi, but instead it will be gated. 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:22.600 And I guess that's one of the things, Gina, that's 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.240 really striking in the US context, and I've seen Richard Florida, 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.560 who writes a lot about cities, has talked about this 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:30.800 and some of the other researchers that you were talking 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.200 about it is that it's I mean, cities are a 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.480 cause of inequality, but that's primarily because housing is such 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.480 a source of inequality that once you have the kind 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.920 of success of in a city, the thing that happens 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.760 is it becomes incredibly expensive for some of the people 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.280 who used to live there to be there, and then 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:53.160 you've got this increasing wealth inequality. You know, is it 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:59.720 controls on building houses that's that's driving that partly? I guess, yes, absolutely. 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.280 I think there's sort of a large and growing literature 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.920 that says, really, our zoning regulations and this idea of 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.119 not in my backyard, you know, we like conclusive growth, 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.760 but as long as it doesn't you know, obstruct our 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.720 site line to the nearest local landmark. UM. I think 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.440 those sorts of policies have really fostered some of these 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.160 problems that we're having, and you can see it so 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.639 much in the aggregate data in the US. You know, 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.679 what we've seen is folks with college degrees are just 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.200 flooding into cities. Folks without them just it's completely cost 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.040 prohibitive there. They're staying point where they are. And when 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.280 you think of cities as increasingly the areas where all 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:40.520 the opportunity is from an economic standpoint, I think that 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.760 is going to be increasingly problematic as we assuming these 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.080 trends continue, that's going to be increasingly problematic for inequality 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:49.960 both and income and in wealth over the next couple 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.320 of years and decades. Do you get the sense, Jill, 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.159 that there's a lot of that, there's a lot of 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:59.440 thinking around this in in Delhi or other Indian cities, 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:01.879 because you know, it certainly has been it's been a 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.640 college industry that I've noticed over the last few years 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.280 people talking about cities as the new drivers of growth 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:11.240 and city governments being more important than country national governments 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:13.639 and it's certainly in Europe. People have done a lot 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.720 of thinking and the US about what makes for a 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.240 successful city and how can you have a have the 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:22.960 full range of people living in a neighborhood rather than 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:25.359 having the kind of segregation that we've sometimes had in 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.320 the past. Is there any of that in India or 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:32.520 do you feel it's it's hellmell for growth no matter what? 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:35.960 So there is a lot of thinking around in equality 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.400 in India UM and I think one of the big 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.920 problems that came up when I spoke with economists for 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:49.520 this story was this issue of governance UM and in 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.320 Delhi specifically, you kind of have overlapping jurisdictions that makes 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.600 it very hard to plan for infrastructure that you need 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.760 to keep up with its rapidly expanding population. So that 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.840 kind of a big theme that came out of my 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.760 reporting that it hasn't been able to keep up in 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.920 India and that's why you haven't been able to get 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.520 as much out of urbanization as you could have compared 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.240 to other countries in the region, UM, compared to China, 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:23.520 for instance. I mean, where do you see this going? Geno? 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.480 I mean, is it something city governments have been quite 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.240 vocal in America, they do have a bit more power, 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.919 maybe more ability to plan than some other cities. Do 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.919 you see a lot of conscious efforts to engage with 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.800 this in city planning or is it just are they 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:45.240 too constrained by local interests and some of the planning 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.280 restrictions that you talked about. I think there is a 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:50.800 growing recognition in the US that this is a problem, 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.760 and there are certainly some towns in regions that are 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.440 really making an effort to make sure that they grow 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.320 in a more inclusive way. One good example all of 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:03.640 that is the Triangle in North Carolina. The Triangle area 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.679 so sort of that Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill region is 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.439 really making an effort to expand its transit network in 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.800 a way that will kind of keep home prices a 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.520 little bit more evenly spread so that people have access 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.320 to the economically vibrant areas there. So those those local 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.480 initiatives are happening, I think they aren't happening fast enough 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.440 to counter the rapid run up in prices that we've 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:32.399 seen in metropolitan housing markets, and so I think this 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.000 is going to be one of those problems that most 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:36.760 folks you talked to will say is going to get 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.760 worse before it gets better. I mean, it's certainly we've 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:45.320 talked about in these podcasts, we've talked about inequality, and 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.280 we've had also been doing some studies for the for 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:53.359 the New Economy Forum on how inequality is feeding into 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.040 economic policy around the world, and it does. It feels 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.639 like the urbanization story provides a kind of mirror image 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.280 of what has happened globally with with incomes that you've 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.080 had a big fall in in poverty and in many 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.960 ways urbanization. The fact that the world has now got 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.240 more than half of the population living in cities is 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.600 a sign of the success of economic development, but it's 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:19.560 equally shown up all of the rising inequality that's that's 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:22.440 happened at the same time. It just seems like looking 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:26.400 around the world, whether it's in India or in the States, 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.480 we know how to make cities reflect all of our 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.639 inequalities and the flaws in our economic model. But I 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.359 can't point to that many cities that have managed to 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.680 use urbanization as an engine for for approving the structure 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:43.119 of their economy make it more inclusive. Maybe that's one 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:44.720 of the things that they will find the solution to 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.800 in their conversations at the New Economy Forum. We shall 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:51.360 see in the meantime. Genus Panic and Jill Ward, thanks 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:56.480 very much for joining me. Thank you, thank you, thanks 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.520 for listening to The New Economy. Today's episode was reported 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.600 by Jill Award with help from Genus Malick and editor 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.280 Lucy Meekin, with special thanks to Uni Krishnan. It was 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.920 produced by Magnus Henriksson. Francesca Levy is the head of 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:11.119 Bloomberg Podcasts.