WEBVTT - People Need to Call Down! 

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<v Speaker 1>She wants reunification. He has said this time and time again.

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<v Speaker 1>He's claimed that it is unstoppable. And look, this has

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<v Speaker 1>been the position since the inception of the Chinese Communist Party,

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<v Speaker 1>but it has become an obsession under She he wants

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<v Speaker 1>the US to stop selling arms, to change his posture,

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<v Speaker 1>and to reduce its.

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<v Speaker 2>Support of Taiwan.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So the scary news so far in the big

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<v Speaker 3>summit between Trump and President She, the leader of the

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<v Speaker 3>two biggest economies in the world, the two leaders meeting

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<v Speaker 3>is that man she went there right away on Taiwan,

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<v Speaker 3>and as you just heard in that report there from

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<v Speaker 3>CBS News, it has become an obsession of his that Taiwan,

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<v Speaker 3>the independent country off the coast of China, become part

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<v Speaker 3>of China. President She believes it is part of China

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<v Speaker 3>and should become a full on part of China. Our

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<v Speaker 3>position is currently no, you ain't, but President she said

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<v Speaker 3>to Trump yesterday. If handled poorly, it could lead to

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<v Speaker 3>conflict in an extremely dangerous situation. I've seen no reporting

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<v Speaker 3>on how Trump replied to that. Basically a threat from

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<v Speaker 3>President She about don't get in our way if we

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<v Speaker 3>decide to take Taiwan. So we got that on a

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<v Speaker 3>little more of the optimistic side. This is just out

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<v Speaker 3>from the White House. The two sides agreed that the

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<v Speaker 3>Strait of horror moves in Iran must remain open to

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<v Speaker 3>support the free flow of energy. That's good the President.

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<v Speaker 3>She said that also made clear that China's opposition to

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<v Speaker 3>the militarization of the strait or any effort to charge

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<v Speaker 3>a toll or anything like that. And both countries agreed

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<v Speaker 3>Iran can never have a nuclear weapon. And I hope

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<v Speaker 3>President She means those things sometimes he doesn't. Joining us

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<v Speaker 3>now to discuss all of this. Gordon Chang, we've had

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<v Speaker 3>on the show many times over the years of author

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<v Speaker 3>and calumnist, written a whole bunch of different great books

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<v Speaker 3>that we've talked to him about. He's a columnist at

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<v Speaker 3>The Daily Beast. You can follow him on Twitter at

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<v Speaker 3>at Gordon g Chang. Mister Chang, welcome to the Armstrong

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<v Speaker 3>and Getty Show. Appreciate you being here.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, thank you so much. Jack.

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<v Speaker 3>So was that a threat from President She on the

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<v Speaker 3>whole Taiwan thing?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure it was, and President Trump has responded. We've been

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<v Speaker 2>told by a White House official speaking off the record

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<v Speaker 2>that there will be no change in US policy, which

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<v Speaker 2>is good. Now, i'd like President Trump to publicly say, look,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not changing our policy. And actually i'd like him

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<v Speaker 2>to say we're defending Timewan, because I think at some

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<v Speaker 2>point we're going to need to do that. But thing

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<v Speaker 2>has just been huffing and puffing, and I think President

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<v Speaker 2>Trump knows it and he's just not feeling And Trump

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<v Speaker 2>is feeling well, there's no point in actually opposing him publicly,

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<v Speaker 2>but the US will not change its position.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's damned interesting. I mean because the readout after

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<v Speaker 3>their first talks, the Communist Party's readout was basically she's

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<v Speaker 3>threat to Trump, with no indication of how Trump responded

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<v Speaker 3>the White House. Initial White House readout didn't mention the

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<v Speaker 3>Taiwan thing at all. It just talked about, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>business relations. So that's interesting that you have an update

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<v Speaker 3>on that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's and you can you know a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people and there's a whole industry of people who will

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<v Speaker 2>blame Trump for things he has not done, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is one of them where people are really worried that

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<v Speaker 2>Trump will sell out Taiwan. Now she hasn't done it yet,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't think he'll do it, and if he

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<v Speaker 2>does it, we'll criticize him then for it. But until

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<v Speaker 2>he does it, people should just sort of calm down

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit. And I think it's important for us

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<v Speaker 2>to give the president some credit here.

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<v Speaker 4>Well I don't.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't know what Trump's true thoughts on this,

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<v Speaker 3>but I don't know that Kamala Harris would have defended

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<v Speaker 3>Taiwan if president or Joe Biden or Barack Obama. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>so's it's always been kind of an open question would

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<v Speaker 3>we actually go to war with China to defend Taiwan

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<v Speaker 3>if it came down to it. So I don't know

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<v Speaker 3>where we are.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, and we also don't know where we are

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<v Speaker 2>as Americans because we had to go back to nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>fifty where Dean Ahison, who was Secretary of State at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, publicly drew America's western defense perimeter that did

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<v Speaker 2>not include South Korea. So that encouraged Kim olsunga North

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<v Speaker 2>Korea to invade the South. And what did Truman do?

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<v Speaker 2>President Truman immediately sent troops to defend South Korea. So

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<v Speaker 2>we don't even know our own mind, but I believe

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<v Speaker 2>that we would defend Taiwan because if we didn't, it

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<v Speaker 2>would be catastrophic.

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<v Speaker 3>That's what I wanted to ask you about. Explain to

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<v Speaker 3>people why that would be a big deal if China

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<v Speaker 3>was able to make Taiwan part of China in the

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<v Speaker 3>same way that they did Hong Kong, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>First of all, Taiwan makes ninety two percent of the

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<v Speaker 2>world's most sophisticated semiconductors, so forget about the future with

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<v Speaker 2>involving microchips. But also after the catastrophic which all from Afghanistan,

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<v Speaker 2>Taiwan has become the test of American credibility and resolve

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<v Speaker 2>around the world. China, which has been attacking democracies, we

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<v Speaker 2>cannot allow them to absorb any democracy, especially one as

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<v Speaker 2>important as Taiwan, because the propaganda would be malicious that

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<v Speaker 2>the United States was no longer a world power. And also,

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<v Speaker 2>since the eighteen hundreds, we Americans have drawn our western

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<v Speaker 2>defense perimeter off the coast of East Asia. Taiwan sits

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<v Speaker 2>in the center of that critical line. It protects our

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<v Speaker 2>allies Philippines in Japan. We would not be a world

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<v Speaker 2>power if we allowed China to take Taiwan, and this

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<v Speaker 2>would be just shameful. Forget about these strategic implications. It

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<v Speaker 2>would just be shameful we allowed that to happen.

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<v Speaker 3>I agree with all that, and we're all seeing what

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<v Speaker 3>the Strait of Horror moves has done to the world economy,

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<v Speaker 3>and China controlling all the shipping lanes of that part

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<v Speaker 3>of the world would make that look like nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and President Trump deserves a lot of credit because

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<v Speaker 2>just on April thirteenth, the Pentagon announced a defense pack

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<v Speaker 2>with Indonesia. The Indonesian island of Sumatra is the southern

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<v Speaker 2>end of the Strait of Malacca, which is far more

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<v Speaker 2>important than the Strait of Horror moves to world commerce.

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<v Speaker 2>So Trump is thinking about these things in a very

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<v Speaker 2>determined way. So here again give him credit.

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<v Speaker 3>So this is new from the White House. As I

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<v Speaker 3>mentioned a little bit ago, I wondered what your take

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<v Speaker 3>on this isn't and this is good news that President

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<v Speaker 3>she agreed that the Strait of Horror Moves, that's the

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<v Speaker 3>strait with the war in Iran we've been following, must

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<v Speaker 3>remain open. They don't get to charge tolls, all that

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<v Speaker 3>sort of stuff. And he agreed Iran can never have

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<v Speaker 3>a nuke.

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<v Speaker 4>That's all good news, right, well mostly, And the reason

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<v Speaker 4>is we need to keep the Strait of Hormos closed

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<v Speaker 4>until the Iranians actually give up their.

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<v Speaker 2>Nuclear program and their ballistic missiles. And this puts a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of pressure on China, which we need not only

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<v Speaker 2>for Iran but for other things. And you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>up to us. This is a fault not just of Trump,

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<v Speaker 2>but of all his predecessors, going back to Clinton. Actually

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<v Speaker 2>even before that, Iran has a nuclear weapons program because

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<v Speaker 2>the Chinese transplanted Theirs on Iranian soil. They did that

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<v Speaker 2>by direct transfers of equipment, material and technology, but they

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<v Speaker 2>also did it indirectly through the aq Con black market

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<v Speaker 2>network of Pakistan. So you know, a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>blame Trump for this war. Trump knows this. He needs

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<v Speaker 2>to say it in public that there's a war because

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<v Speaker 2>China made this war virtually inevitable.

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<v Speaker 3>That's really interesting. I was struck yesterday watching the Leader's

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<v Speaker 3>meet and all the kids dance around and everything like

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<v Speaker 3>that under the watchful eye of a giant portrait of

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<v Speaker 3>Chairman Mao that is there in the square. I can't

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<v Speaker 3>believe that's not more remarked upon about the fact that

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<v Speaker 3>you have this enormous poster painting whatever it is of

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<v Speaker 3>Chairman Mao, the guy responsible for more deaths than maybe

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<v Speaker 3>anyone in human history.

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<v Speaker 2>No, you're right about that. Mao is responsible for more

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<v Speaker 2>deaths than any other figure in history, more than Hitler,

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<v Speaker 2>more than Stalin, more than Genghis Khan. It's just Mao's

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<v Speaker 2>death toll is enormous. We don't know exactly what it was,

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<v Speaker 2>but from a number of events, especially the famine following

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<v Speaker 2>the Great Leap Forward at the end of the nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>fifties in the beginning of the nineteen sixties was horrific.

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<v Speaker 2>Should have known or knew what was happening, but allowed

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<v Speaker 2>the famine to continue. And this is something that the

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<v Speaker 2>United States needs to talk about. You know, the Communist

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<v Speaker 2>Party maliciously hits us every day with propaganda, except for

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<v Speaker 2>the two weeks around a visit of an American leader

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<v Speaker 2>to China or vice versa. But apart from that, you

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<v Speaker 2>get malicious propaganda every day, and the United States needs

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<v Speaker 2>to hit back.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I would like some sort of statement about that.

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<v Speaker 3>There's the cognitive dissonance thing going on in my brain

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<v Speaker 3>that we can have Elon Musk and all these people

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<v Speaker 3>in Trump and everye we're all smiling, holding hands, and

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<v Speaker 3>the kids are the dancing around, and you got the

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<v Speaker 3>most evil person in world history looking down on it.

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<v Speaker 3>Seems like somebody ought to throw out by the way,

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<v Speaker 3>that system is currently in place, and that's evil. But

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<v Speaker 3>I guess nobody wants to upset the Apple.

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<v Speaker 2>Gart right, And that system has declared the United States

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<v Speaker 2>to be its enemy, and we need to say that

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<v Speaker 2>we ignored Osama Bin Lad, we're ignoring the Chinese. Both

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<v Speaker 2>believe that they must destroy the United States. Fortunately we

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<v Speaker 2>killed Osama Bin Laden, but China is still in a

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<v Speaker 2>position to do that.

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<v Speaker 3>Gordon Chang, thanks for joining us today on short notice.

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<v Speaker 3>I know you're super busy. Everybody wants to hear from you.

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<v Speaker 3>Find him on Twitter at least at Gordon g. Chang

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<v Speaker 3>or writing his column for The Daily Beast. Thanks for

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<v Speaker 3>your time today. Really appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, thank you, Jack.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I got another comment about that, But first I

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<v Speaker 3>want to tell you about rough greens for your dog.

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<v Speaker 3>gonna call in a little later in the show with

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<v Speaker 3>any dog food better with Roughgreens. Uh yeah, we've never

0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.200
<v Speaker 3>had so we could call out the Soviet Union for

0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.840
<v Speaker 3>being bad, although we didn't always. When when Reagan back

0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:34.000
<v Speaker 3>in the eighties said, you know, called the Soviet Union

0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.480
<v Speaker 3>an evil empire, a lot of people, oh.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't say that, that's.

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<v Speaker 3>Revocative or whatever. So we didn't even very often with

0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:46.240
<v Speaker 3>the Soviet Union point out loud how awful they were,

0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:51.080
<v Speaker 3>And we weren't nearly as economically intertwined or dependent. I

0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.160
<v Speaker 3>looked this up before the show today, because I'm that

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<v Speaker 3>sort of statistic geek. The Soviet Union had about a

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<v Speaker 3>third of our economic power, or we were the number

0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:05.200
<v Speaker 3>one economy throughout the Cold War, they had about a

0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:09.240
<v Speaker 3>third of our economic power. China is about seventy five

0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.000
<v Speaker 3>percent of our economic power, and in some ways of

0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:15.200
<v Speaker 3>measuring they're equal to us. So it's a completely different ballgame.

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<v Speaker 3>So I guess that's why business leaders, including our president,

0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.600
<v Speaker 3>aren't gonna call them an evil empire. But when you

0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:26.400
<v Speaker 3>got Chairman Mao staring down over everybody as the leading

0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.160
<v Speaker 3>killer of humans in human history, that is really weird

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<v Speaker 3>that nobody says anything out loud about that. Not I mean,

0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:37.280
<v Speaker 3>why doesn't the CBS Evening News say that. By the way, there's,

0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.760
<v Speaker 3>as you can see in the background, there's Chairman Mao

0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.840
<v Speaker 3>responsible for the deaths of thirty to fifty million people.

0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.480
<v Speaker 3>Why does nobody say that out loud? Isn't that weird?

0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:47.760
<v Speaker 3>I assume that if you were in Munich and he

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<v Speaker 3>had a giant Hitler poster, somebody would say something. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know you had any thoughts on that text line

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<v Speaker 3>four one five two nine five KFTC