1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Crime stories with nitty grace. The police say this all 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: began in this neighborhood in a drug deal gone bad. 3 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: They say, the two Americans allegedly approached a man asking 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: where they could buy drugs. That man led them to 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: a dealer who, please say soldom fake cocaine. The two 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: growing angry, allegedly going back to the scene and stealing 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: the backpack of the man who pointed them to the 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: drug dealer. This surveillance video capturing two men running away 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: after the theft. Police say the man called his own 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: phone that was in the stolen bag and spoke to 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: the two Americans. He says they offered him an exchange 12 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: his bag for a gram of cocaine and a hundred euros, 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: but he went to the police instead, who set up 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: an undercover operation that ended with the officer stabbed times. 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: Why do I care what happened in Italy because two 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: American tourists teens age eighteen and nineteen are not the 17 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: alleged victims this time. I'm always covering when an American 18 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: is hurt overseas. This time, two American men are charged 19 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: with murdering a police officer over what some fake dope. 20 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: I am just sick to my stomach. I mean it. 21 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: See Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for being 22 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: with us. What in the world were these two thinking? 23 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: You're hearing from our friend at ABC News Ian Panel, 24 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: But take a listen to more of what Ian has 25 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: to say, please say. The two men then return to 26 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: that hotel not far away, preparing to leave the country 27 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: when Please swooped in. Both teams, allegedly confessing have to 28 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: investigate us, say they found overwhelming evidence in the room, 29 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: including the supposed murder weapon cleverly concealed behind one of 30 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: the ceiling tiles, and bloody clothing. But as a hearing 31 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: this weekend, both Americans waved their right to speak see 32 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: what I mean. A public defender for Finnegan Elder saying 33 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: his client wasn't well and psychologically tried back in San Francisco. 34 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: Some who knew him shocked. I've never seen Finnegan do 35 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: anything anything that He's always He's been super nice to me. 36 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: The Elder family releasing a statement saying we've not been 37 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: able to communicate with our son, adding as any parents 38 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: would be, we're deeply concerned. Well, we've been hearing the 39 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: exact opposite about their behavior in the neighborhood, joining me 40 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: right now to break it down and put it back 41 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: together again. An all star panel California prosecutor, author of 42 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: Red Flags on Amazon, Wendy Patchet. She knows her away 43 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: around the courthouse. Renowned forensics psychiatrist doctor Daniel Bober Joining me. 44 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath 45 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan. Also with US 46 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: former Chief Medical Examiner doctor Chris Sperry. Right now to 47 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave mcdave, just start 48 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: at the beginning. Now, I know your impulse is to 49 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: rush to the headline, but please start at a We'll 50 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: get to ze what were these two doing unschaperoned in Italy? 51 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: To start with, well, these are two high school friends 52 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: who just wrapped up their first year at junior college. 53 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: Gabrielle Christian Natalie Horth actually has family in Italy. He 54 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: and Finn that's what they call this guy at Finn 55 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: Elder why said friends in northern California, and Natalie horthe 56 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: invited him to vacation in Italy with some of Natali 57 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: Horth's family that's why they were there unattended on this vacation. 58 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us to American tourists 59 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: age eighteen and nineteen allegedly confess to killing an Italian 60 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: police officer in an undercover sting. They were trying to 61 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: recover a backpack they stole in Rome during a boxed 62 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: drug deal where they were given aspirin instead of cocaine. 63 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: You know, Wendy Patrick, it's bringing to mind, as a 64 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: matter of fact, doctor Chris Sperry, I think you were 65 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: actually the medical examiner that I called to the stand 66 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: on this case. I know you don't remember it, but 67 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: I do, Wendy Patrick. I remember how shocked I was. 68 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: A mother was shot dead. She had been sitting in 69 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: her front yard in a you know those fold up 70 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: lounge chair things, and it was hot outside, and a 71 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: guy came up, A doper came up and said, hey, 72 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: you know this guy. She goes, yeah, well the guy 73 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: was a doper in the neighborhood, you know, a neighborhood doper, 74 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: just like all these neighbors and their California neighborhood going yes, 75 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: he was such a nice boy. So this lady goes, yeah, 76 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: I know, him. So the man buys dope from the guy. 77 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: The dope turned out to be bad. He goes back 78 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: and shoots the woman, shoots her dead. She's still sitting 79 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: there on her lounge chair, reminding her own business. I 80 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: remember his name, Zilner. That was the defendant's name. I 81 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: think Leonard Zielner. But long story short, Wendy Patrick asked 82 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: him for cocaine. It sounds like like a bunch of 83 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: idiots to us, But when you're a dope atic, that's serious. 84 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: That's exactly true, Nancy, And that's something that it's hard 85 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: to comprehends looking in from the outside. As you say, 86 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: this is a life and death scenario unfortunately quite literally 87 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: to somebody who's an addict. And that's what expert witnesses 88 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: a trial or for to explain this dynamic to the jury. 89 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: How could one become so angry that murder is the 90 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: answer to being sold a false drug. So you're absolutely right, 91 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: and that God bless that poor lady. How awful to 92 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: be in the scenario, or I should say, the surviving 93 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: family members at this point to have to vouch for 94 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: somebody that, in her eyes, seemed so nice. It's like 95 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: the axe murder next door, Nancy, isn't it You have 96 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: no idea the people that really live around you when 97 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,239 Speaker 1: all you do is wave to them in the morning 98 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: before you go to work. Now, the two teens are 99 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: said to have told cops they have been looking to 100 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: buy drugs and rhymes Chestivary District at two a m. 101 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: But we're sold crushed aspirin instead, you know. Uh. To 102 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: doctor Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists joining me, that sounds like 103 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: the idiots to call nine one one and say somebody 104 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: stole their dope. Okay, what do they think is going 105 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: to happen? So these guys are telling the cops that 106 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: they committed a murder because they were wronged. They were 107 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: so crushed aspirin instead of cocaine, Like a cop is 108 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: gonna care? What's that thinking? Yeah, it absolutely no sense. 109 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: It sounds like something teenagers would do, and you I 110 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: don't want to go down that road and saying, you know, 111 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: teenagers can be impulsive and they don't think it through, 112 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: but it is pretty stupid. We're learning that two San 113 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: Francisco teams on a quote drug holiday in Rome have 114 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: been arrested in the Italian capital on charges of murder 115 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: and attempted extortion in connection with the fatal stabbing of 116 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: a police officer. A police officer reportedly one of the 117 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: two teens, the nineteen year old Finnegan, confessed to stabbing 118 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: a thirty five year old paramilitary cop, Mario Churchilli Rega, 119 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: to death during an apparent drug deal gone wrong. The 120 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: second Californian, Christian fourth, eighteen, was also involved in the 121 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: scuffle that led to the CoP's death. Now, in a statement, 122 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: Rome Police revealed that both men had been interrogated in 123 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: the face of overwhelming evidence, they eventually confessed to the crime. 124 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: I don't know what that means, but hey, you ain't 125 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: in Kansas anymore. People, you don't have the constitution protecting 126 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: you from interrogation. You got an alleged cop killer. What 127 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: do you think happened behind bars? What we know is 128 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: this two teen Americans being held for murder in Italy 129 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: and it is not looking good. Crime stories with Nancy 130 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: Grace that maybe shock and disbelief back home in America, 131 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: but here in Italy it's anger and outrage. This has 132 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: become a huge political issue. It's on the front pages 133 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: of all the newspapers. He's leading all the TV news 134 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: and now the Deputy Prime Minister of itsterally tweeting saying 135 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: that the two men held inside this jail should be 136 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: given life with hard labor. That is from ABC's Ian 137 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: panel reporting there in Italy. Back to Dave Matt Crime 138 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter Dave mac you kill a 139 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: cop in another country. Over here, when you kill a cop, 140 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: you're really treated with kid gloves because the cops know 141 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: everybody's going to be watching their every move. I've got 142 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: a pretty strong feeling it's not like that in Italy, Nancy. 143 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: The people of Italy, and this is a nationwide story, 144 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: they are beyond apoplectic. This man is a heroic figure 145 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: at thirty five years old. You realize he was a newlywed. Nancy. 146 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: They had to hold the guy's funeral in the same 147 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: place where he got married just six weeks earlier. The 148 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: people of Italy are just beside themselves. They've been in 149 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: the streets. They've built a makeshift shrine at the scene 150 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: of this crime. And politicians, you know, the Prime Minister 151 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: was there consoling his newlywed gride slash widow at the funeral. 152 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: We've got politicians that are tweeting out incredible things before 153 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: this has even seen its day in court yet. So yeah, 154 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: the people of Italy are not going to stand for them. 155 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: All my stars, they're probably all mad anyway over Amanda 156 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: Knox still because in Italy everybody thinks Amanda Knox committed 157 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: murder on Meredith Kircher her remake, remember Foxy Knoxie. And 158 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: now two Americans come over there and kill a cop. 159 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: According to police, we know that the cop Rega had, 160 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: just as Dave Max said, come back to work from 161 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: his honeymoon. This is very compelling to me, to doctor 162 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: Chris Sperry, former Chief Medical Examiner, and that doesn't just 163 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: happen overnight. People. You go to school, you go to 164 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: medical school, you work your way up, you do the 165 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: night shifts, you literally perform thousands, thousands of autopsies, and 166 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: then somehow you land as the chief medical Examiner. Listen 167 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: to this, doctor Sperry. Eight stab wounds to his back, 168 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: important in his chest, one of the injuries apparently having 169 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: struck his heart. Doctor Sperry, this cop never had a chance. 170 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: But what is jumping out to me probatively? In other words, 171 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: what does it prove to me? Does it prove anything. 172 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: He was literally stabbed in the back, Doctor Sperry, Yes, 173 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: he was taken by surprise to a great extent. He 174 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 1: may have been trying to escape, but clearly one of 175 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: the assailants jumped on him from the back. And stabbings 176 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: are up close and personal between two or more people, 177 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: so there's a struggle going on. The cop doesn't have 178 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: a chance, and once he starts getting stabbed in the back, 179 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: it's just a matter of time before he loses so 180 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: much blood that he can't struggle anymore. Once the stab 181 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: wound hit the heart, he had maybe ten or twelve 182 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: seconds of consciousness and then it started to be all over. 183 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: Doctor Spare, You've always been pretty stoic, and I've known 184 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: you for a really long time. We were to gather 185 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: a lot in court. Sadly for you. I ambushed you 186 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: many many times at the Medical Examiner's office during autopsies. 187 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: We've been out and broken bread together at lunch. I've 188 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: never seen you get broken up over a victim. You're 189 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: very very Let me just say, um, what's that word 190 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: sterile about the whole thing? Which is what a prosecutor 191 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: needs when somebody's up on the stand, But does it 192 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: ever bother you? I mean recounting this about how he's 193 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: newly wed, and when Dave Mack just told me that, 194 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: about how they just had the wedding in that cathedral, 195 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: and now it's the funeral six weeks later, I'm looking 196 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: at pictures of him showing off his wedding ring. Thank you, 197 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: Jackie for making me feel even worse showing that picture 198 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: to me while I'm trying to talk. But does it 199 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: ever get to you? I mean, how many autopsies have 200 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: you performed? Sperry. I've done over six thousand, eight hundred 201 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: myself and seen over one hundred thousand others. Not that 202 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: you're counting six thousand, thousand, eight hundred. Good Lord, when 203 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: you're driving home, you know, after autopsies, do you ever 204 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: think about the backstory or do you just have to 205 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: keep your heads straight? See? I can never keep my 206 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: head out of the emotions of a case and what 207 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: victims and their families were going through. How do you 208 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: do it? Or do you do it? Well? We build 209 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: up a wall. Yeah, I don't think about things too much, 210 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: but I still have to think about them if I 211 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: If I didn't, i'd be a robot. I'd be, I 212 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't be human. And there's some things that get through 213 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: the cracks in that wall that are very disturbing. But 214 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: I can't help but think about it. Yeah, I remember 215 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: when we had lunch time. I was talking about one 216 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: of the dead bodies and what happened, and telling you 217 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: I'd been out trying to find the location and take 218 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: pictures with what was then a polaroid camera. And I 219 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: was telling you about the victim and what they had 220 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: gone through, and you turned around and went two tune rolls. 221 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: You know, he ordered, you ordered your sushi. I'm like, Okay, 222 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: obviously I'm too emotionally involved in this case and I 223 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: should not be dragging down the chief medical Examiner with 224 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: my angst Joe Scott Morgan. Let's get back to the 225 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: evidence with me. Forensics expert and author of Blood Beneath 226 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: My Feet Joseph Scott Morgan. Okay, what do we have, 227 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: if anything? How do I know other than the stabs 228 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: in the back, which tells me the guy was trying 229 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: to get away or was already down. What do we 230 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: have forensically? How is the stake going to prove this case? 231 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: Or are they Yeah, I was kind of laughing a 232 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: bit a second ago when he said the reporter on 233 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,479 Speaker 1: the air was talking about how he brilliant they brilliantly 234 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: hid the knife somewhere in the room, and I'm thinking 235 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: this is not a sign of high intelligence here. These 236 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: kids are probably going to be uh have a tremendous 237 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: amount of trace evidence, particularly the perpetrator that's left behind, 238 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: and then ultimately you have the murder weapon that's hid 239 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: in the room where they're staying. So you've got connection 240 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: that's going back here. One of one of the victims 241 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: or one of the perpetrators alleged that the victim had 242 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: grabbed him by the neck in order to, you know, 243 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: try to try to corral him in this set of 244 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: circumstances once he realized that the kid was breaking the law, 245 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: and I think I would imagine the Italian authorities went 246 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: some distance to try to document that information as well. 247 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: Did he or did he not have marks on his neck? 248 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: Or was this just an ambush killing him, this poor 249 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: fellow who, as you stated, had just recently return Well 250 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute, and wait a minute. 251 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: Hold on, let's talk about the facts as to whether 252 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: it was an ambush killing, because that I mean in 253 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: the America, this would be a death penalty case. You 254 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: kill a cop plus an ambush you lay in. Wait, 255 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: that's two aggravating circumstances right there. But as far as ambush, 256 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: let me understand the facts. Wendy Patrick, veteran California prosecutor. 257 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: They had bought what they thought was cocaine, It turned 258 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: out to be crushed aspirin, and they go back. So 259 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: that tells me right there it was an ambush. Yeah, 260 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: those are the kinds of facts, Nancy, You're exactly right 261 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: that we're going to want to focus on, is this 262 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: wasn't something that happened at the spur of the moment 263 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: and the heat of passion. Instead, it involved a measure 264 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: of deliberation, planning. I hesitate to say sophistication, because as 265 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: you point out, there were some clumsy details. Nonetheless, the 266 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: intent to actually go back and do what they did 267 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 1: can be inferred through those of circumstances. So absolutely, that's 268 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: the kind of thing you're going to be looking at 269 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: and determining what was their mindset at the time of 270 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: the killing. Guys, we are talking about two America's now 271 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: charged with not only murder in Italy, but murder of 272 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: a police officer, Dave mac Where are they being held 273 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: and what are their conditions right now? They're being held 274 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: and what we would look at as a county jail. 275 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: They're actually in an area that's a holding area of 276 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: four suspects and they can be held for up to 277 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: a year without being charged with a crime. Italy has 278 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: things a little bit different than we do. So they're 279 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: in jail right now, and they're being held in isolation. 280 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: They're not together. They're actually being held in isolation, separated 281 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,239 Speaker 1: from one another and separated from everybody else that's in 282 00:18:48,280 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: this particular jail. Guys, I want to tell you about 283 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: something very important to me. I hope you can join 284 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: me this Saturday, six o'clock Eastern, five Central on Oxygen 285 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: for Injustice with Nancy Grace. I think about this woman 286 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: so often. Michelle might Bey. She got up super early 287 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: one morning, got her coffee in her car, checked on 288 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: her two little girls, and headed off to work early. 289 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: She wanted to take a few days off at the 290 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: end of the week to spend time with her children 291 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: and her husband. So she goes to work this big, huge, 292 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: sprawling laboratory and processing center Thermo Fisher. She was head 293 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: of HR. She never saw her children alive again. She 294 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: was brutally murdered at work, the purp dragging her body, 295 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: leaving a trail of blood from her office. Who in 296 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: that sprawling lab had an axe to grind with Mom 297 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: Michelle might be who sentenced her little girls to life 298 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: without a mom. We reinvestigate the case, shining lights on 299 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: what really happened. Please join us Saturday, Oxygen six o'clock Eastern, 300 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: five Central and the case of the murder of Mom 301 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: Michelle matt Be. We want justice. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 302 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: Both suspects graduated from Tamapia's High school in twenty eighteen. 303 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: Some people who know them say they're not too surprised 304 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: by the arrest. Italian police say both suspects are in 305 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: nineteen years old vacationing in Rome. Finnegan Elder from San 306 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: Francisco and Gabriel to Tally Horthe from Mill Valley. I've 307 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: known Finn since who was born a n I'm in shock. 308 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: He's the nicest kaya, one of the nicest neighbors. Another 309 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: neighbor wasn't too surprised about the arrest, saying Elder was 310 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: a troublemaker, and I've gotten drunk and thrown up in 311 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: front of their home. I've kind of always known that 312 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: he's a bit of a bad guy. There's Tamil pious 313 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: high student is talking about the second suspect, Gabriel and 314 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: the Tally. He apparently had a reputation for beating up kids. 315 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: He would come up in stories of just like activities 316 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: you wouldn't want your kids getting into, like, so he's 317 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: kind of been known around town as like a sort 318 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: of delinquent character. Audacity of going and doing that in 319 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: another country is frightening, But I just think it's disgusting 320 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: to kill a police officer when they're keeping everyone safe. 321 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: You're hearing from our friend dot Lynn a kpix San Francisco, 322 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: So people in the neighborhood, most of them anyway, not 323 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: surprised at all. These two have gotten in trouble, but 324 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: killing a cop in Italy, a neely wed cop to 325 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: top it off. Now, Finnegan, one of the two, later 326 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: claimed to investigators that neither Rega the victim, were the 327 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: second officer. Very Alli identified themselves as police. In a 328 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: separate interview, Horthe completely contradicted that claim. And admitted. Both 329 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: of the cops had disclosed who they were, that they 330 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: were cops. Quote when we saw them, we approached, we qualified, 331 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: and after a few moments the struggle broke out. And 332 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: that's from the other cop very alley. After I heard 333 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: Mario scream with multiple stabs, I rushed to rescue him 334 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: while they the two teams were running away. I immediately 335 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: called for helping the operations center to ask for helping 336 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: give a description of the two attackers. I can't imagine 337 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: that moment out on the street when your partner is 338 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: stabbed dead in the back. What do we know about 339 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: these two? We know that some people in neighborhood say 340 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: that they were wonderful. Others say they had a long 341 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: history of misbehavior. But I want you to take a 342 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: listen to this Tonight's Italian Police on Defense. After this 343 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: league photo showing one of the American teens accused of 344 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: murdering the Roman police officer blindfolded and handcuffed his head 345 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: down inside a police station, the image splashed across Italian media, 346 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: the police commissioner calling what's happened illegal and a mistake. 347 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: Officials say the image was taken after suspects gave. Natalie 348 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: Hrs and Filligan Elder were taken him for questioning, and, 349 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: according to police, confessed to being involved in the incidents 350 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: that led to the fatal stabbing of newlywed officer Mario Cechiello. Rega. 351 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: You're hearing our friend at ABC News Ian panel. Did 352 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: you hear that, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. I've seen the 353 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: photo of one of the teens handcuffed and blindfolded. Oh honey, 354 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: if that happened in the US, all h double l 355 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 1: would break loose, blindfolding and handcuffing at the same time 356 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: a defendant blindfolding. That would never wash here. That's right, 357 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: it would never happen here. We're very careful to ensure 358 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: that everybody is treated with respect and dignity, and whether 359 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: you're in and out of custody or whether you're a 360 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: criminal suspect or not. So you're right, Nancy, that's definitely 361 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: going to play a role in what happens next, and 362 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: in terms of what the confession was like, what the 363 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: circumstances were like, what prompted it. Remember, you and I 364 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: have both been in court when false confession experts have 365 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: been called by the defense and have relayed facts and 366 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: circumstances that might lead to such actually happening at a 367 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: police station. So yes, it's important. It may not be 368 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: the absolutely end all in terms of how we view 369 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: that resulting confession, but certainly it's a huge factor and 370 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: viscerally we don't even like looking at a photo like that, 371 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: regardless of what somebody is accused of. You're absolutely right. 372 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: Big difference though, to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, between 373 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: a false confession and a coerced confession. A false confessionist 374 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: when you confess is something you didn't do. A coerce 375 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: confessionist when they beat you, threaten you, torture you to 376 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: you give a confession. I don't think that there's really 377 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: any doubt. I mean, hold on to Jess Got Morgan, 378 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: forensics expert, professor Forensics, Jackson State University, just got isn't 379 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: there CCTV close circuit TV footage off some of this? Yeah? 380 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: I was just taking a look at it, Nancy, and 381 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: you can see two subjects lasting full speed down the street. 382 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: They run you into frame and then passed it. As 383 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I think that if they apply 384 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: some technology to this, they might be able to even 385 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: clarify the video a little bit because you've got kind 386 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: of a peripheral view of their faces as they're running 387 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: towards the camera and then around the corner. So from 388 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: an evidentary standpoint, I think that's going to be kind 389 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: of powerful. I got to say something really quick, you know, 390 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 1: relative to these kids. Now, it wasn't as an egregious offense, 391 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: but this takes me all the way back to nineteen 392 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: ninety four Nancy with a name we might not have 393 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: talked about in a while, and it's Michael Fay and Singapore, 394 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: where you've got this kid that comes into another country 395 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: and begins to vandalize vandalize vehicles if I remember correctly, 396 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: and he was he was actually caned for doing that, 397 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: and it created a huge media storm. Now you take 398 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: that and you kick it up a notch. This guy 399 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: is a national hero that they have literally slaughtered. And 400 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. You know, the rules, the rules of the 401 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: game change when you go overseas. You cannot behave this way. 402 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: People in that country do not attack police officers and 403 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: certainly paramilitary officers. And I think they're going to have 404 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: a really tough road in front of them back it 405 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: up for me just a moment to Crime online dot 406 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 1: Com Investigative reporter Crime Online where you can find this 407 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: and all other break in crime and justice news online. 408 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: Dave Matt Investigative Reporter, Just one more time for me. 409 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: Start at the beginning, goes slowly because every third word 410 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: you say means something to me, probatively as far as 411 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: what it can prove or not prove in court. Okay, Well, 412 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: Gabrielle and New Christian and Talihorth and Finnegan Lee Elder. 413 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: They both went to school together just north of San Francisco, 414 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: High school friends who actually attended junior college for their 415 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: first year and were on summer break from that first 416 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: year junior college. Gabriel Christian Natali Horth is actually he's 417 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 1: got family in Italy. He invited Finn Elder to go 418 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: with him to spend the summer vacation in Italy. That's 419 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: why they were there. I will sidebar to all of 420 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: this is that Finnegan Lee Elder, he actually traveled from 421 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: the United States to Italy with the knife that was 422 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: allegedly used to kill the police officer. It was his knife. 423 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: They arrive in Italy, they've done a bunch of shopping. 424 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: We've seen some pictures of apparently a Natali Horth is 425 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: actually kind of a show off and a braggart about 426 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: his family's money. We actually have pictures of him posing 427 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: outside of the Gucci flagship story Oh white a minute, White, 428 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: A minute, White a minute. They're rich brats? Is that 429 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: what you're telling me? Apparently so oh And likes and 430 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: apparently he likes to brag about it by posting photos online. 431 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: And back to what some of the high school students 432 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: said who actually went to school with them, said they 433 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: were constantly bragging about money and what their families had. 434 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: So now they're on this Italian summer vacation. Can you 435 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: imagine I would be so mortified if I caught one 436 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: of the twins bragging about anything, whether it's a new 437 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: pair of shoes or a trip to six Flags. I mean, 438 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: I just how I'm just mortified. Okay, that's a whole 439 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: I'm going down a rabbit hole on that. Go ahead, 440 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: back with the facts. Okay, So they're in Italy and 441 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: apparently now I don't know, Nancy, if they were scheduled 442 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: to leave town or if they were leaving town because 443 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: of this murder but when police traveled back to the 444 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: apartment of the hotel slash apartment they were staying, the 445 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: guys were packing and getting ready to leave town that day. Again, 446 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if that was planned ahead of time 447 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: or if this would just happenstance. But as you know, 448 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: as this started at two o'clock in the morning, they 449 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: try to buy cocaine off the street. They get old 450 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: some aspirin. Instead, they go back and challenge this drug 451 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: dealer and steal the drug dealer's backpack. That's the picture 452 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: you see them running. That's right after they have stolen 453 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: the backpack from the alleged drug dealer. The drug dealer 454 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: then calls his phone it's in the backpack, and he 455 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: talks to these guys and they arrange a trade. They're saying, 456 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: we still want our grammar cocaine and now we want 457 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 1: you to give us one hundred dollars with the euros 458 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: as well. He calls the police. The police then set 459 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: up a sting. They show up. The police officers are 460 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: in plain clothes and they meet up with Natalie Horthe 461 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: and Finnegan Lee Elder at later in the morning. That's 462 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: where the crime occurred. The attack when the boys think 463 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: they're gonna get cocaine and money and instead they're actually 464 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: dealing with two police officers who are now taking them 465 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: under arrest. It was during that struggle that Finn Elder 466 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: started stabbing the herolic cop and Natalie Horth started physically 467 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: attacking the partner. So it was an all out fight 468 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: to the death right there on the street, with Finnegan 469 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: lee Elder knifing this heroic cop with a knife he 470 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: brought with him for this Italian vacation Crime Stories with 471 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. A tribute to the slain officer has been 472 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: growing today on the Rome Street corner where Mario Cercello Rega, 473 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: a thirty five year old newlywed and officer for the 474 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: Carbineri Police Force, was stabbed to death. The nineteen year 475 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: old American suspects, whom police say confessed, are being held 476 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: inside Regina Chiley Prison, where they met with their lawyers today. 477 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: I found he was stressed, that's for sure, Finnegan lee 478 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: Elder's lawyer said, but I don't think it's appropriate to 479 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: do interviews. You're hearing from our friends CBS News seth down. 480 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: I guess he is rest he's charged in murdering a cop. 481 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: We are also learning to judge. A judge, says the 482 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: American teens accused of killing the Italian police officer displayed 483 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: quote total absence of self control. And the reality is, 484 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: even if they were, they were out looking for dope. 485 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: But even if they were high. To Wendy Patrick, veteran 486 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: California prosecutor, in America, the voluntary use of drugs or 487 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: alcohol is not is rarely ever a defense. In fact, 488 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: for it to be a defense, you have to be 489 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: totally comatose. You have to be passed out, and even 490 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: then it's questionable. So if they were high on dope 491 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: or alcohol, that's not going to make a difference under 492 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: the law in America. That's right, Nancy. There are certain 493 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: narrow circumstances where voluntary intoxication can be a defense to 494 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: certain specific intent crimes. But that's the more the exception 495 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: than the rule as a general rule. You're right, in fact, 496 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: in me even be an aggravate in some circumstances. So right, 497 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: the fact that it's being even discussed in connection with 498 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: explaining what they did, it would certainly not save them here. 499 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: And we will be following this to see if it 500 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: actually plays a role over there as well. I am 501 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: just learning new information now. This is according to the 502 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: San Francisco Chronicle that one of the two American teens 503 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: now charged and killing a cop had punched a fellow 504 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: student punched a fellow high school student at a party 505 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: in stern Grove that left the victim with a severe 506 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: brain injury. Whoa Finnegally elder who's now accused of stabbing 507 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: the neelywed cop dead, stabbing him eleven times m M. 508 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: Leaving him bleeding out in the street over a botch 509 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: cocaine deal. An elder and its eighteen year old buddy, 510 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: Gabriel Christian fourth, also of San Francisco. Now we're learning 511 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: one of them punched a friend in the face, leaving 512 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: him with a brain injury. I mean, how do you 513 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: do that, doctor, Chris Sperry, How do you punch somebody 514 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: so violently? They have a brain injury. If you put someone, 515 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: especially if you hit them and they fall down and 516 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: hit their head on the concrete or on the hardwood 517 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: floor or something like that, that is usually where the 518 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: severe brain injuries come from, is the impact against the floor. 519 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: It's very hard, it's very difficult to actually cause a 520 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: bain injury from a direct punch, but it's the fall, 521 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: the impact that causes a bad injury. Well, doctor Sperry, 522 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I'm reading on in the r and 523 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: the information I've just gotten. Elder, who was sixteen years 524 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: old at the time, hit another sixteen year old at 525 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: a wooded park and it was kind of a nighttime 526 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: gathering spot for teens. I understand the victim just as 527 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: you said, without knowing a thing about it, struck his head, 528 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: fell and struck his head. He was hospitalized with a 529 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: quote life threatening injury, experienced a long recovery, and has 530 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 1: since graduated from high school and in his attending college. 531 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: He did not give a statement. Wow, Okay, we know 532 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: that Elder turned himself in then and was one of 533 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: about twelve people suspended from the final game of the season, 534 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: so he turned himself in. I mean, you would think 535 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: doctor Bober with me, forensic psychiatrist, doctor Daniel Bober, that 536 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: he would have learned his lesson about not controlling his 537 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: impulse Sunfortunately, Nancy has got a lesson. You can really 538 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: learn it. You know, it's just sort of biology. It's 539 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: that last part of your brain that develops when you're 540 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: about twenty five, called the prefrontal cortex that helps with 541 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: impulse control, so that hardware is not even there. And 542 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: again that doesn't absolve him of responsibility, but impulse control 543 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: is definitely something that is not a strong suit for teams. Well, 544 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: he was treated in juvy court. I don't know what 545 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,280 Speaker 1: he got, but apparently not much because he was straight 546 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: back out. Guys. For those of you just joining us, 547 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: two teams now held an Italian gail after killing a 548 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: carp I want you to take a listen to our 549 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: friend at ABC News, Ian Pannell. The police say this 550 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: all began in this neighborhood in a drug deal gone bad. 551 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: They say the two Americans allegedly approached a man asking 552 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: where they could buy drugs. That man led them to 553 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 1: a dealer who, please say soldom fake cocaine. The two 554 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: growing angry, allegedly going back to the scene and stealing 555 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: the backpack of the man who pointed them to the 556 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: drug dealer. This surveillance video capturing two men running away 557 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: after the theft. Police say the man called his own 558 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: phone that was in the stolen bag and spoke to 559 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: the two Americans. He says They offered him an exchange 560 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 1: his bag for a gram of cocaine and a hundred euros, 561 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: but he went to the police instead, who set up 562 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: an undercover operation that ended with the officer stabbed eight times. 563 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 1: That's ABC News Ian Pannell reporting from Italy to Joseph 564 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, professor friends Jacksonville State University, an author of 565 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Wait a minute, I 566 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: remember a scene that I wrote in my first fiction, 567 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: Eleventh Victim, and Haley Dean, who was the hero the 568 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: heroine in the case, was being set up for a 569 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: murder and she was looking through her Manhattan apartment trying 570 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: to find where she thought someone had planted the murder weapon, 571 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: and she found it and it was hidden in a 572 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: light fixture in her den. So she takes it and 573 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: as one of the longest walks of her life, goes 574 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: to a local Delhi, goes to the lady's bathroom that 575 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: she's been in many times, gets on the commode, climbs 576 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: up through the ceiling where all's through the ceiling, and 577 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: drops the knife into dirty SuDS in the kitchen dishwater, 578 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: and then goes back out through the bathroom in this case. 579 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: I mean I made that up. But in this case, 580 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,280 Speaker 1: they find the murder weapon hidden up in the ceiling. 581 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: Now that does not scream knowledge of wrongdoing. I don't 582 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: know what does just come more. Yeah, they purpose to 583 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: conceal this weapon, and I think that that probably in 584 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: the Italian courts, which by the way, move very very slow. 585 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: We've seen that in the Amanda Knox case, they will 586 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: try to demonstrate this at great length. Another from a 587 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: forensic standpoint, I'm wondering how well these two people may 588 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: have attempted to clean this knife off, because if there 589 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: is physical evidence that can be tied back to this 590 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: poor man's body, that will be brought to light as well. 591 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: I'm talking about blood evidence, and then you know, at 592 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 1: at the molecular level, we're talking about DNA. Are they 593 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 1: going to be able to lift any of that off? 594 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: And if that is the case. If that is the case, 595 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: that is going to be a real nail in their coffin. 596 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds in an Italian court. Remember, 597 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: these two are not shrouded in the protection of the 598 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: US Constitution. It's a whole another ball game in Italy. 599 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace crime story signing off, Goodbye friend,