Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there.
Speaker 1: And this is stuff you should know. The Finders Keepers
Speaker 1: Edition Losers Weepers. Yeah, I know, so, Chuck. This is like,
Speaker 1: this is an actual thing. It's not just like a
Speaker 1: child's fantasy. Like this is law in some places. And
Speaker 1: while it doesn't actually state losers weepers, I think it's implied.
Speaker 1: It's implicit in the law where the finders the keeper,
Speaker 1: but you lost it, so you're legally obligated to weep
Speaker 1: in public. Yeah. And it's funny reading through some of
Speaker 1: these examples. It sounds like playground stuff. I'll say that
Speaker 1: I'll get to some of these. Some of these examples, though,
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, that's not your person, Like, come on,
Speaker 1: give it up. Did you say that out loud to yourself?
Speaker 1: I did a couple of these. I was like, man, seriously, man,
Speaker 1: that's not yours, that's not yours. I'm just have a
Speaker 1: big justice thing, you know, So yeah, me too. It's
Speaker 1: when I see people acting like a big baby in
Speaker 1: saying like this money I found in my wall is mine? Like, no,
Speaker 1: it's not. Well, you would be a great arbitrator, Yeah,
Speaker 1: get out of here, it's not. You'd be like, my
Speaker 1: ruling is this man that's not yours? Give it up. Uh.
Speaker 1: But no, let's start with John and Mary not their
Speaker 1: real names. No, No, I guess that's worth pointing out.
Speaker 1: These are anonymous, an anonymous husband and wife team from
Speaker 1: nor caw Yeah, from Ryan, California. And they are anonymous
Speaker 1: because they didn't want a lot of attention and they
Speaker 1: are still anonymous. We'll call him John and Mary and
Speaker 1: they are famous. Uh. Well, I guess they're not famous,
Speaker 1: but their cases a little famous because they found ten
Speaker 1: million dollars and our you know what could be ten
Speaker 1: million dollars in rare gold coins buried on their property
Speaker 1: that they own on a walk and it's known as
Speaker 1: the saddle Ridge Horde. Uh. In February two thirteen, they
Speaker 1: found this, uh, these gold coins that no one knows
Speaker 1: who they belonged to, how they got buried there, but
Speaker 1: they found them and took a long time sort of
Speaker 1: coming out with this. They did about as smart as
Speaker 1: you possibly can. Yeah, they didn't rush to the press
Speaker 1: or anything and say, look what we found. Uh. They
Speaker 1: took their time because I think they rightfully knew that
Speaker 1: they were onto something pretty special. Yeah. So they were
Speaker 1: out walking on on their property put that away for
Speaker 1: later with their dog, and they noticed, I guess, the
Speaker 1: side of a can coming out of the ground, and
Speaker 1: they went and dug it out, and sure enough, there
Speaker 1: was a bunch of gold coins in there. Whenever you
Speaker 1: see a can coming out of the ground, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's your hope and wish that it's going to be
Speaker 1: filled with old coins or jewels or something, right, But
Speaker 1: it never happens. And it actually happened to these people.
Speaker 1: And and so they went back again and again and again,
Speaker 1: and they ended up pulling eight cans filled with gold coins,
Speaker 1: pure gold coins, out of the ground on their property.
Speaker 1: And it became very apparent, based on the state of
Speaker 1: preservation of the cans and the dates of the coins
Speaker 1: in the cans, that somebody had buried this no more
Speaker 1: recently than the very beginning of the twentieth century, and
Speaker 1: probably sometime in the late nineteenth century. Yeah, and here's
Speaker 1: a hint. If you ever happened to unearthed aid whatever
Speaker 1: a can or a glass jar or something full of
Speaker 1: money buried on your property. Just keep digging that maybe it,
Speaker 1: but maybe not. Yeah, I wondered, like what kind of
Speaker 1: excavation they undertook points once they were like, oh there's
Speaker 1: more there. I'm quite sure they cleared that ground. It's
Speaker 1: it's it's verified. There's no more cans. So if you're
Speaker 1: talking actual money, the face value, it's about twenty seven grand.
Speaker 1: But because these are rare fines in great, great condition,
Speaker 1: most of most of these coins, um, they're thinking that
Speaker 1: it could be worth as many as as much as
Speaker 1: ten million bucks. So they're gonna sell it. Well, they
Speaker 1: have been and donate some of this money. M and um,
Speaker 1: you know that it's nice that they're they're donating some
Speaker 1: of it, but it really sort of um opens up
Speaker 1: this question of hey, what does the law say about
Speaker 1: finding something period much less like on my property rights?
Speaker 1: The finders keepers law basically is what you're talking about,
Speaker 1: And that's really what it's called in case laws find
Speaker 1: the finders finders keepers laws or rules. That's right. So, um,
Speaker 1: there was a lot going on here. These guys, John
Speaker 1: and Mary owned the land that these coins were found,
Speaker 1: Dawn and that was a huge mark in their favorite um.
Speaker 1: But there in the United States, it really depends on
Speaker 1: what state you're in, what court you go to, what
Speaker 1: judge you happen to pull the case lawn is so
Speaker 1: all over the place and so piecemeal that it's it's
Speaker 1: really almost the luck of the draw. And there are
Speaker 1: more things that you can do to compound your case
Speaker 1: to make it more likely that the the thing is
Speaker 1: is yours. But really it comes down to who has
Speaker 1: the best claim on whatever is found. Yeah, like somebody
Speaker 1: could come forward still probably or could have come forward
Speaker 1: with John and Mary and said, wait a minute, that
Speaker 1: was my great great grand Pappy Clark's land, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure he did not intend to clark you those gold coins, right, Uh, So,
Speaker 1: like we actually should have a claim as his family,
Speaker 1: um to to to take this stuff from you, and
Speaker 1: like that could go that could very legitimately go to
Speaker 1: court to be decided by a judge. And again, like
Speaker 1: you said, it's who has the more legitimate claim. Um.
Speaker 1: What really helps them is like you said, it was
Speaker 1: on their land and that it's super old, right exactly,
Speaker 1: So the fact that it's very very old means that
Speaker 1: the person who buried them is probably dead may not
Speaker 1: even have any living heirs any longer. Um that's one
Speaker 1: thing that it's it's old. The second thing is that
Speaker 1: it's old, but it's also not necessarily archaeological. It's it's money.
Speaker 1: So it's the gold coins are the definition of treasure.
Speaker 1: And what we've entured now is called treasure law. And
Speaker 1: there's different types of things that we'll see, but there's
Speaker 1: one one category of found property is called treasure. And
Speaker 1: what they found was treasure. It was a gold coin,
Speaker 1: it was very old, but it wasn't necessarily archaeological. Again,
Speaker 1: it was on their property. And so had somebody come
Speaker 1: along and said, my Grandpappy Clark buried those back when
Speaker 1: my family owned this property, that's ours, they would have
Speaker 1: a claim. And and pretty much anytime something valuable, especially
Speaker 1: ten million dollars valuable, is found in the United States,
Speaker 1: it is automatically going to get hammered out in court
Speaker 1: because the laws are so vague, in piecemeal and arbitrary
Speaker 1: that it's going to going to be hammered out in court.
Speaker 1: Who has the bigger claim. But because John and Mary
Speaker 1: found something that was old that was buried by someone,
Speaker 1: no one knows who buried it, and that it was
Speaker 1: found on their property. They have a pretty good claim. Now,
Speaker 1: if you were going to come and say, my grandpappy
Speaker 1: buried that, um, your claim would be that was that
Speaker 1: belonged to my family at one point in time. We
Speaker 1: think it still does. It just happened to be buried
Speaker 1: and forgotten or left um on land that these people bought.
Speaker 1: Now there's a pretty good chance that the court would say, yeah,
Speaker 1: but they bought the land. And depending on what state
Speaker 1: you're in, that's that if they own the land, they
Speaker 1: owned everything on it. Yeah. Or bought the car with
Speaker 1: money in the trunk, or the house with a super
Speaker 1: valuable painting buried in the attic. It's sort of all
Speaker 1: the same um and And this is modern times. This
Speaker 1: has been going on since the dawn of time when
Speaker 1: people would lose or bury something, and they've always had
Speaker 1: I think back then it was a little more cut
Speaker 1: and dried, like an ancient Rome. If you found something
Speaker 1: like that, half of it went to the emperor. Just
Speaker 1: sort of know if ands or butts uh. If. In
Speaker 1: modern England, if you find something um old and rare, uh,
Speaker 1: they say that belongs to the queen. Um. But here's
Speaker 1: here's like a good fee for you now now hand
Speaker 1: it over. And that's very very new, and that's kind
Speaker 1: of that represents the the new thinking in treasure law
Speaker 1: or found property law, which is, look, we can't just
Speaker 1: let you keep this stuff that may have not just
Speaker 1: like monetary value, but actually like cultural value as well,
Speaker 1: like so we need to have something to do with this.
Speaker 1: So England just when, or i should say, the UK
Speaker 1: just said everything you find that is valuable or antique
Speaker 1: um and archaeological that belongs to the crown. But the
Speaker 1: Crown is going to pay you market value, no questions asked,
Speaker 1: right off the bat. So it's not finders keepers, but
Speaker 1: it's finders. Here's here's a bunch of money you didn't
Speaker 1: have before for finding this and bringing it into us.
Speaker 1: And the point of this from the position of the
Speaker 1: Crown or the UK government is that it encourages cooperation
Speaker 1: with archaeological, archaeologists and historians to preserve cultural stuff rather
Speaker 1: than just having it sold out onto them the commercial
Speaker 1: market to private collectors because of finder keepers laws. And
Speaker 1: that's how it was before six Yeah. I mean, if
Speaker 1: if it's in the UK today and you find something
Speaker 1: that is not an ancient gold coin. But if you
Speaker 1: just find it, let's say, you know, ten thousand pounds
Speaker 1: bundled together, buried in your in your attic or on
Speaker 1: the street for that matter, I think you have to
Speaker 1: file paperwork at a police station. Uh, the owners have
Speaker 1: twenty eight days to claim it, and then it's yours.
Speaker 1: In the United States, it varies from state to state
Speaker 1: and uh sometimes even county to county, but generally it's
Speaker 1: sort of the same thing, like reported to the police.
Speaker 1: They need to advertise the lost property for a week
Speaker 1: and then wait about ninety days, depending on where you are,
Speaker 1: to see if anyone claims it, and then after that
Speaker 1: they might say you can keep it. Yeah, but but
Speaker 1: maybe it just depends on where you are. That's um,
Speaker 1: that's like contemporary property that you found, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is not like ancient gold coins. This is I
Speaker 1: found a bundle of cold, hard cash. So let's let's
Speaker 1: take a break and then we'll take a detour into
Speaker 1: content porary property, because there are like a whole other
Speaker 1: set of laws that are like are kind of important too,
Speaker 1: All right, okay, Chuck, So, like we said, there's there's
Speaker 1: some categories for for property found property. One of them
Speaker 1: is the treasure where it's just straight up I found
Speaker 1: eight cans of gold coins and it's treasure. Some in
Speaker 1: the UK there's not really a distinction between that and say, um,
Speaker 1: like uh, archaeological artifacts, they're virtually one and the same.
Speaker 1: In the US, because the age of the country is
Speaker 1: young enough, there's a distinction between an archaeological artifact and say,
Speaker 1: like treasure that's found. But there's then there's contemporary property
Speaker 1: where the person who owned it is probably still alive.
Speaker 1: If not, they're the first generation after them is still
Speaker 1: probably around UM and that that contemporary stuff is basically
Speaker 1: broken out into three subcategories. There's lost, abandoned, and mislaid property,
Speaker 1: and depending on the status of the property UM, the
Speaker 1: finder may or may not get to keep it. And
Speaker 1: even that then it depends on where you are. Yes,
Speaker 1: so as far as those categories go. Abandoned property is
Speaker 1: something that uh they say is forsaken by a previous
Speaker 1: owner who doesn't have any intention of coming back for it,
Speaker 1: so they've abandoned. They have abandoned it. Can you imagine
Speaker 1: like how you would tell whether something's abandoned or not.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean unless they literally leave a
Speaker 1: note saying finders keepers, I don't want this anymore. Get
Speaker 1: this away from me. You know what would it be
Speaker 1: like a big bag of cocaine that somebody left there, Like,
Speaker 1: I can't do anymore. This is really bad for me.
Speaker 1: I don't want this. I don't know. Uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: That is that That is the one that is the
Speaker 1: most confusing. The other two are much more straightforward. Lost
Speaker 1: obviously is like the example they gave is you've lost
Speaker 1: your engagement ring in the street, um, and clearly it's
Speaker 1: something that you want back and maybe have tried to
Speaker 1: come back and find um, but you have dropped it
Speaker 1: or lost it somehow. And this mislaid is even more
Speaker 1: interesting because uh, that is something that you intentionally put
Speaker 1: somewhere but then kind of forgot it. And another good
Speaker 1: example like you went to the bank and we're filling
Speaker 1: out your your form and then oh my goodness, you
Speaker 1: got a cell phone call and had to bolt real quick,
Speaker 1: and you left that money on the counter that you
Speaker 1: wanted to deposit in the bank. That is mislay, um,
Speaker 1: because you clearly had an intention for it and we're
Speaker 1: just way late or whatever, right, so it's not technically lost.
Speaker 1: Because you put it somewhere on purpose, whereas lost, like
Speaker 1: you dropped something in a parking lot. You may not
Speaker 1: even know you're missing it at the time, right, or
Speaker 1: you can't find it, right. Um. Mislaid is just like
Speaker 1: you're no longer where you put that thing down, but
Speaker 1: you intended to do something with it. There was intent
Speaker 1: behind it, but you forgot or something or you got
Speaker 1: called away. Yeah, and that that property mislaid property is
Speaker 1: supposed to be guarded by whoever owns the property. So
Speaker 1: in that case it would be the bank. Somebody from
Speaker 1: the bank should go over there, collect that money and
Speaker 1: just set it aside and be like that guy. I'll
Speaker 1: be back for this, right. Which is it's funny because
Speaker 1: you know the whole lost and Found box. You think
Speaker 1: that's just like a good Samaritan thing. Well, really it's
Speaker 1: everybody just covering their behinds lee speaking. I guess I
Speaker 1: see it differently now, and I'm a little more bitter
Speaker 1: because of it. So this Arizona case is one of
Speaker 1: the ones where I got a little, uh little pod
Speaker 1: I was a little bit. So this is a man died,
Speaker 1: he hid half a million dollars in cans and ammo cans,
Speaker 1: ammunition cans in the walls. And years later, the person
Speaker 1: who owned that house, we're doing some renovations. Outcome these
Speaker 1: cans and they were like, oh my god, it's a
Speaker 1: half a million dollars. This is ours. So this man's
Speaker 1: daughters they knew, like dad loved to do stuff like this.
Speaker 1: He loved to hide things, He loved to hide things away. Uh.
Speaker 1: They they searched before they sold the house. They even searched,
Speaker 1: but obviously did not find these these cans stashed in
Speaker 1: the walls. Uh. And when this came out, these daughters
Speaker 1: came forward and we're like, you know, that's our money,
Speaker 1: that's our our you know, should have gone to us
Speaker 1: in a will, but my kookie dad stashed it in
Speaker 1: the wall again. And uh, these people fought them for
Speaker 1: that and said, no finders keepers in our wall. We
Speaker 1: bought this house. Well, so I mean, I I can
Speaker 1: understand your eye or in your anger, and that's what
Speaker 1: I'm like. As soon as someone stepped forward, I would
Speaker 1: have been like, oh, well, here's your money, then, like
Speaker 1: this is your father's. It doesn't belong to me. But
Speaker 1: what if you were like, actually, we've got a like
Speaker 1: legitimate legal claim to this because depending on where they were,
Speaker 1: and this is Arizona, but I mean depending on the state.
Speaker 1: When you buy property from somebody, you buy the property,
Speaker 1: and everything on that property, whether anyone knows it's there
Speaker 1: or not, it belongs to you. Is the property owner.
Speaker 1: For example, Texas is huge on that huge on private
Speaker 1: property ownership, so much so that if you own property
Speaker 1: in Texas and there's an archaeological site on your property,
Speaker 1: that's yours, bub you can set it on fire, you
Speaker 1: can turn it into a rec room, you can do
Speaker 1: whatever you want with that stuff. That's your property. That's
Speaker 1: how that's how Texas views uhum private property rights. Right.
Speaker 1: So these people may have been like, well, we're from Texas,
Speaker 1: that's just how we do it in Texas. They had
Speaker 1: a legitimate claim to challenge. I get what you're saying.
Speaker 1: But they also may have felt like, hey, we bought
Speaker 1: this property and this came with the property, so this
Speaker 1: is our sorry, that whole losers wheepers thing I think
Speaker 1: is what they were invoking. Yeah, I mean that that's
Speaker 1: clearly what they did. But what I'm saying is that
Speaker 1: is not a that's not cool. No, it's that money
Speaker 1: did not belong to them. They didn't work for it.
Speaker 1: They didn't buy it because the house because they thought
Speaker 1: there might be money in the walls. And if no
Speaker 1: one came forward, then great. But as soon as these
Speaker 1: daughters come forward, like that's their money to do the
Speaker 1: right thing, that's what I say. I'm with you. Would
Speaker 1: there's no way I would have challenged these daughters in court, right,
Speaker 1: you would have been Finders, nice guys, losers here you go, Well,
Speaker 1: I'd make sure, you know, I'd go through all the
Speaker 1: legal process of making sure that they are who they
Speaker 1: say they were and it all checked out. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: like if they came knocking on my door, would just
Speaker 1: go all right here, But I would. I would go
Speaker 1: through that process and then say, well, okay, then it's
Speaker 1: definitely your money. Would you like interview their cousins would
Speaker 1: be like, what kind of daughters were they? Were they
Speaker 1: good daughters? Or you know? Do they deserve this? And
Speaker 1: at the very least, you're inviting a a heap of
Speaker 1: bad luck and karma upon your head. Well, if you
Speaker 1: believe that kind of stuff, sure it comes around. What
Speaker 1: goes around comes around. That's my motto. Well that's another
Speaker 1: Finders keepers, losersweepers, what goes around comes around? And then
Speaker 1: the third one everything I needed to know I learned
Speaker 1: in kindergarten. Or what about this guy in Georgia the
Speaker 1: public defender talk about a jerk? Yes, there's no this
Speaker 1: guy had no legal standing whatsoever, whether he was from
Speaker 1: Texas or anywhere. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't look him
Speaker 1: up to see what his name was. But in two
Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, a public defender found, um uh a diamond
Speaker 1: ring I guess, an engagement ring that was worth something
Speaker 1: like ten dollars and just put it in their pocket
Speaker 1: and walked away whistling, Man, what a I mean, especially
Speaker 1: an engagement ring? Right, that's mine? You know? What a jerk? No,
Speaker 1: I I agree, and um he got in trouble for it.
Speaker 1: From what I understand, they when the person went back
Speaker 1: and said I lost my engagement ring at the target
Speaker 1: helped me. The target said, well, of course, we're gonna
Speaker 1: help you. Calm down, Calm down, peace, brother, And they
Speaker 1: pulled up their surveillance videos and saw the public defender
Speaker 1: finding the ring and pocketing it, and they put a
Speaker 1: warrant out for the public defenders arrest for I think
Speaker 1: larceny actually, at the very least for not going to
Speaker 1: lengths to find the person whose ring it was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not even links links, pick up a phone or go
Speaker 1: into the target and be like, hey, I need to
Speaker 1: speak to a manager. Well, it's funny, it says. One
Speaker 1: of the things that you can and should do if
Speaker 1: is like to do that and go like give that
Speaker 1: diamond ring to the manager at target, and like, I
Speaker 1: would never do that if it was something super valuable,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't trust I wouldn't trust them. I would keep
Speaker 1: it under my own control and go to the cops.
Speaker 1: Just walk around with a gun drawn on everybody, like,
Speaker 1: get back, get back. I found somebody's diamond ring. Get back.
Speaker 1: It's my looking at And you're like, maybe I should
Speaker 1: just go ahead and rob someplace. Now I got my
Speaker 1: gun out and I'm protecting this diamond ring. And you
Speaker 1: enter into a life of crime totally inadvertent. It's a
Speaker 1: justice thing again, Like I don't want people should have
Speaker 1: stuff that is rightfully there. It's not like up, well
Speaker 1: I just happened to get lucky today, right who get
Speaker 1: rich quick? Like that's what's wrong with this country? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean I know you're right about the five
Speaker 1: grand in the behind the toaster oven. The diamond ring
Speaker 1: is even more cut and dry to me for sure.
Speaker 1: But um, that's yeah. This this isn't a parking lot
Speaker 1: and it was just lost, you know. Um. So yeah,
Speaker 1: there are certain things that you want to do if
Speaker 1: you find lost property that is contemporary, that's obviously lost,
Speaker 1: that's obviously new. Um. And one of the first things
Speaker 1: you want to do is take it to the cops
Speaker 1: and say, here, here's my name and number in case
Speaker 1: somebody doesn't doesn't claim this, but I'm officially giving it
Speaker 1: to you the cops for safe keeping, and then probably
Speaker 1: take out an ad in the paper or on Craigslist
Speaker 1: or both, and then kick back and wait for the
Speaker 1: kudos and the praise for being a hero, yeah, or
Speaker 1: for that thing to be returned to you if no
Speaker 1: one claims it. Yep, depending on where you are, I
Speaker 1: think it like you said, in the UK, it's something
Speaker 1: like a month. In California, it's I saw a twenty days.
Speaker 1: I've also seen ninety. Um. Yeah, if you do all
Speaker 1: the right things and follow all the right steps, it
Speaker 1: can be yours, free and clear. Not only free and clear,
Speaker 1: You're not going to be arrested, freeing clear where the
Speaker 1: person can come back and say, oh, you know I
Speaker 1: I that was my ring. If you are a jerk,
Speaker 1: you can say no, it's my ring now, and the
Speaker 1: cops would be like, it's it's their ring now. They
Speaker 1: followed all the right moves. Yeah. They also recommend if
Speaker 1: it's something really really valuable, maybe like get an attorney
Speaker 1: on on the thing, like maybe one who would find
Speaker 1: a diamond ring and not return it right exactly. He's
Speaker 1: a public defender too, That's what I don't get. Yeah, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean it was like an entertainment attorney. It would
Speaker 1: make much more sense, it would, I guess, But a
Speaker 1: public defenders like, well, I don't get paid, this is
Speaker 1: a really thankless job, and I'm going to do something
Speaker 1: for myself for once, and then they ended up in
Speaker 1: jail for doing something for themselves and then needed a
Speaker 1: public defender. Yes, ironically, should we take a break, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a break, chuck, And then we are
Speaker 1: going to go under the sea. Yeah, where things get
Speaker 1: really confusing, all right, So this is where things get
Speaker 1: super super convoluted when you're talking about uh, shipwrecks and
Speaker 1: literal treasure from like you know, uh, an ancient galleon, um,
Speaker 1: or maybe not ancient, but let's just say a galleon,
Speaker 1: you know it could be yes, we'll say galleons. In
Speaker 1: ancient times they had Oh you know, the oldest intact
Speaker 1: shipwreck was recently found in the Black Seat. Did you
Speaker 1: see it. It's an ancient ship Okay, so ancient Greek? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like that's how ancient. It's not even Greek, it's Greek. Yea,
Speaker 1: it's so ancient. Um, it's the kind that Odysseus was
Speaker 1: lashed two when they were going past the Sirens. It's
Speaker 1: like that kind of ship. It's that old, right, and
Speaker 1: um it's fully in techt just laying on its side
Speaker 1: at the bottom of the Black Sea. It's just beautiful,
Speaker 1: beautiful little shipwreck. And that would be an ancient galleon.
Speaker 1: I guess you could call it. All right. So this
Speaker 1: is where like I don't even know how to talk
Speaker 1: about this almost because it's so convoluted, because it can
Speaker 1: it can matter whose ship it originally was, it can
Speaker 1: matter what was on that ship. It can matter where
Speaker 1: the ship is now resting in whose waters or if
Speaker 1: it's international waters or partially on one side or the other,
Speaker 1: which is when it gets super confusing who the ship
Speaker 1: was least from, who was least from, who was in
Speaker 1: charge of because most of these aren't accidents and know
Speaker 1: uh that it has pointed out that sometimes like a
Speaker 1: scuba diver might find something like this, but usually it's
Speaker 1: an expedition looking for this stuff specifically, so who runs
Speaker 1: that or whose insurance companies have a claim and what
Speaker 1: international agreements are made, and it's just it's almost like
Speaker 1: it's so case by case there really is no rule. Yeah.
Speaker 1: If you thought land property was convoluted, under undersea archaeology
Speaker 1: property treasure property is just totally off the charts. So
Speaker 1: with UM, that was one of the nerdiest sentences I've
Speaker 1: ever uttered. Yeah. I wrote an article years ago about
Speaker 1: undersea archaeology and I did a lot of that research then,
Speaker 1: and it is just really like basically what happens is
Speaker 1: is once something is found, then everyone just lawyers up
Speaker 1: and starts fighting. Yeah, exactly exactly. And I think the
Speaker 1: reason why UM it's it's particularly convoluted in in um
Speaker 1: contentious for the undersea um treasure is that the treasures
Speaker 1: that they're finding are just so eye poppingly valuable that
Speaker 1: it's worth, you know, going to court for fifteen twenty
Speaker 1: years over billions of dollars in some cases. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: was a wreck called the San Jose that was discovered
Speaker 1: and it was announced in two thousand fifteen. I'm not
Speaker 1: quite sure when Columbia discovered it, but it's off the
Speaker 1: coast of Cartagena and its fifteen. The Colombian government came
Speaker 1: forward and said, we found the San Jose. It was
Speaker 1: a galleon. It was sunk by the British three hundred
Speaker 1: years ago. No, no, it was. It was Spanish, but
Speaker 1: it was transporting gold, silver gems from Peru back to
Speaker 1: Spain to to finance a war. It was loaded with
Speaker 1: with valuables. And they think that this wreck today the
Speaker 1: valuables aboard are worth between one and twelve billion dollars. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is not something that any one of these parties
Speaker 1: or countries is gonna give up on now. It's the
Speaker 1: kind of shipwreck. It's the kind of treasure that can
Speaker 1: actually affect world markets, like the value of goods on
Speaker 1: world markets above on land, because this stuff has been
Speaker 1: under the sea and out of the market for so long.
Speaker 1: When it comes onto the market. It could actually depress
Speaker 1: the value of the of like gold, because there's so
Speaker 1: much of it suddenly coming on the market. That's how
Speaker 1: rich this treasure is. Yeah, and it's funny here this
Speaker 1: article you sent. Um, there is a UNESCO convention in
Speaker 1: two thousand one on underwater cultural heritage findings that have
Speaker 1: best practices. They're not actually like you know, laws and
Speaker 1: they're they're like, we'd be happy to help out with this,
Speaker 1: but nobody's called this. That's so you and yeah, they
Speaker 1: they don't want them involved. Basically, they're just like, now
Speaker 1: we're going to work it out with the lawyers. They're like, hey, thanks,
Speaker 1: thanks a lot. Just go sit over there until call
Speaker 1: your pretty much. Um. So the San Jose has a
Speaker 1: lot of people arguing over it. For example, Spain is saying, well,
Speaker 1: it's a Spanish galleon, give us our give us our
Speaker 1: money back. Colombia is like, yeah, it's in our coastal waters,
Speaker 1: that's our territorial waters that belongs to us. Peru says, yeah,
Speaker 1: you guys came and extracted that from our indigenous population
Speaker 1: back when we were Spanish calling. And that's one that
Speaker 1: doesn't come up very often. But you think it should,
Speaker 1: especially in the New World stuff, right, Yeah, like that
Speaker 1: that was our original stuff to begin with, even so
Speaker 1: we should have never been on that boat. Ironically, they
Speaker 1: probably have the least claim to it, sadly, and but
Speaker 1: um there's I wonder though if they'll get a portion
Speaker 1: of it, though, I think if they said no, this
Speaker 1: is this is a thing, this is legitimate, they could
Speaker 1: conceivably get caught in. But they're not going to get
Speaker 1: the whole thing. I don't think anybody's going to get
Speaker 1: the whole thing, preting clear. So there's all these different
Speaker 1: groups arguing over it, and it's big of a mess
Speaker 1: as it is, it's actually not the biggest mess of
Speaker 1: a treasure found a board a shipwreck. There's a ship
Speaker 1: called the Notre Dame de Delivrance. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was um that sank forty miles off of Florida
Speaker 1: in seventeen fifty five. I mean, one of just hundreds
Speaker 1: and hundreds of ships to crash off the coast of Florida,
Speaker 1: and a U. S. Salvage company found it in two
Speaker 1: thousand two. And this is the one that I was
Speaker 1: talking about. It's partially in international waters, partially as part
Speaker 1: of the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary. The Spaniards lease
Speaker 1: the ship from the French West Indies Company, and so
Speaker 1: they all have a claim. And then complicating this is
Speaker 1: the fact that in the United States we passed the
Speaker 1: abandoned shipwreck deck, which means all shipwrecks within US waters
Speaker 1: uh uh, which is what like three miles off of
Speaker 1: any of our coastlines. Um our US properties? Is that right? Yep?
Speaker 1: So it's super convoluted. And that's actually the territorial waters
Speaker 1: thing has kind of been the toughest one or the
Speaker 1: um the best claim that any country can lay on
Speaker 1: a ship is now it's in our territorial waters. Customarily
Speaker 1: that means that's yours, that's yours to deal with. But
Speaker 1: when the ship is in international waters, are partially in
Speaker 1: international waters, that's just a whole different ball game. And
Speaker 1: even when something's in territorial waters, like Spain's not gonna
Speaker 1: go away. You know, when two to three billion dollars
Speaker 1: is on the table, they're gonna say no, We're gonna
Speaker 1: use our diplomats to press you know, at least getting
Speaker 1: a portion of this. France will do the same thing,
Speaker 1: and the salvers are like, well, hey, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: this is this is ours, And actually, at first the
Speaker 1: Florida Um Florida judge said, yep, it's yours. Being clear,
Speaker 1: two to three billion dollar booty is yours. Take it,
Speaker 1: put on this eye patch in this cool hat, and
Speaker 1: go get it. Well, but you have to get Spain's
Speaker 1: permission to go get it, right exactly, so Spain's gonna
Speaker 1: say no, we want to have something to do with this.
Speaker 1: But that Shipwrecked Act, the whole, the whole reason why
Speaker 1: the United States is even involved is from that Shipwrecked Act.
Speaker 1: It's very similar to that UK Act where it basically says, nope,
Speaker 1: it belongs to us. Where the United States, it's in
Speaker 1: our territorial waters, it belongs to us. But here's a
Speaker 1: significant portion of it usually like of it. And the
Speaker 1: point of that is to keep um salvers and treasure
Speaker 1: hunters interested enough that they're actually going out and salvaging
Speaker 1: these archaeological sites. But they're doing it under the jurisdiction
Speaker 1: of the state or federal government, which says you've got
Speaker 1: to keep daily logs. You have to break the reck
Speaker 1: site into strings of square meters, you have to catalog everything.
Speaker 1: You have to have a certified archaeology, a marine archaeologist
Speaker 1: on board throughout the entire voyage overseeing this whole thing.
Speaker 1: You gotta do it right, and we'll give you of
Speaker 1: what we can get for it, which is substantial in
Speaker 1: some some cases. But it's not like treasure hunting is
Speaker 1: like a cheap activity. It's a very expensive undertaking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's seriously expensive. And like they don't just like these
Speaker 1: treasure hunting companies don't just go in there and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I think there's something there, let's go grab it. I mean,
Speaker 1: they do all their research because it is so expensive,
Speaker 1: two ensure as much as possible that they will have
Speaker 1: a claim to it in the end. You know, they
Speaker 1: don't just go in there willy nilly and hopes that
Speaker 1: the courts will decide with them. No, no, for sure,
Speaker 1: But I mean I think that's the probably of significant
Speaker 1: portion of the operating costs of a treasure hunting outfit
Speaker 1: is the court costs and fees um to to get
Speaker 1: the to to get the rights to the treasure. I
Speaker 1: would guess, yeah, and in this case too, I'm sure
Speaker 1: of France was like Florida judge, like, I don't care
Speaker 1: what you say. But Florida judges have a big say
Speaker 1: in this. They're about as professional as you could get
Speaker 1: as far as as um passing judgment on treasure claims
Speaker 1: for sunken ships. Because Florida has the most sunken ships
Speaker 1: of any state in the Union, something like six thousand
Speaker 1: to ten thousand estimated shipwrecks from piracy, hurricanes, all this stuff. Um,
Speaker 1: Florida's got it. Also, if you're gonna if you're looking
Speaker 1: for a judge who has experience on ruling on a
Speaker 1: case like this, Florida is probably your best bet. Don't
Speaker 1: go to Oklahoma. That would be my my suggestion. That's
Speaker 1: just good advice all around. And it can also so
Speaker 1: um if you're a treasure hunter, not only can the
Speaker 1: court costs be killer, you might be put in jail.
Speaker 1: There's a guy named Tommy Thompson who's a very famous
Speaker 1: treasure hunter who found the wreck of the Fitzgerald. No, although, man,
Speaker 1: there are a few wreck that fascinate me more than
Speaker 1: the M. M. Fitzgerald. I can just sit there and
Speaker 1: look at those eerie pictures of it all day long.
Speaker 1: I can I just sing that song over and over. Um,
Speaker 1: you shouldn't do that. He'll drive you insane. No, he
Speaker 1: found the wreck of the s S. Central America, which
Speaker 1: was a steamer that went down in a hurricane off
Speaker 1: the coast of South Carolina in eighteen fifty seven with
Speaker 1: four hundred and twenty five souls aboard and three tons
Speaker 1: of gold and um. He found it, and he went
Speaker 1: and sold a bunch of stuff and didn't pay his investors,
Speaker 1: and a judge put him in jail in Ohio, where
Speaker 1: he's been sitting since I think two thousand fifteen, because
Speaker 1: he refuses to say where five hundred gold coins from
Speaker 1: the wreck went. He just won't say. He said that
Speaker 1: he gave him to somebody and believes, but he can't
Speaker 1: remember who they are. That's really that's what his That's
Speaker 1: what his lawyer had to tell the Washington Post. That funny. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd just be like that to somebody and he can't
Speaker 1: remember who. Yeah. I mean, I wish we could have
Speaker 1: been a little bit more like black and white about
Speaker 1: the shipwreck thing. But it's just it's just so depends
Speaker 1: on the case. Yeah, you know, there is no solid rule.
Speaker 1: There's a couple of solid rules. There's one above ground
Speaker 1: where if you are caught digging on federal land. That's
Speaker 1: a felony um and any stone tool found in the
Speaker 1: United States belonged to the federal government automatically, I would guess,
Speaker 1: unless it's in Texas, in which case the Texas authorities
Speaker 1: and the federal authorities would fight with one another over
Speaker 1: your right to own that stone tool. That's a good point.
Speaker 1: So I think that's about it for finders Keepers. Good one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought so too. Uh. If you want to know
Speaker 1: more about finders Keepers, go find something and say finders
Speaker 1: Keepers and see what happens, and then let us know.
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, we're gonna sit here and do
Speaker 1: listener mail. I'm gonna call this Stanford Prison prison experiment
Speaker 1: follow up angry Fallow. Yeah you read this one. Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: just want to say thank you for your episode on Zimbardo.
Speaker 1: I'm a cognitive psychologist and have been teaching for years,
Speaker 1: and it makes me angry in a way I have
Speaker 1: never been angry before. You do your best to fact
Speaker 1: check and show that you're giving the student and she's
Speaker 1: not talking about our show, by the way, not Zimbardo.
Speaker 1: You do your best to fact check and show you're
Speaker 1: giving the students reliable information, but then someone pulls crap
Speaker 1: like this again Zimbardo, and causes serious problems for us
Speaker 1: as teachers. How did I handle this chapter this year? Well?
Speaker 1: Number one, I taught it as normal as the text
Speaker 1: takes forever to be updated. And number two I showed
Speaker 1: them the video ghost of Abu Grabe? Is it Abbi grade?
Speaker 1: Abbi Grade? And had to had them right about how
Speaker 1: Zimbardo's study predicted this would happen. And then three had
Speaker 1: them all listen to your podcast. Now they're all as
Speaker 1: angry as I am, partially at me for doing that,
Speaker 1: but I wanted them to feel the effort they put
Speaker 1: into it go to waste. But I had a very
Speaker 1: interesting observation in one class, the publicity and popularity off
Speaker 1: this study. Could it have actually created the dystopian prison
Speaker 1: environment and part at Abi Grabe through expectation? Oh, I
Speaker 1: see like a self fulfilling prophecy, I guess. So. Basically,
Speaker 1: was Zimbardo the actual lucifer in his book having an
Speaker 1: effect not only in society as a whole and what
Speaker 1: we believe about humanity, but how we act we now
Speaker 1: live in his hell? Then she says, thanks again. Uh
Speaker 1: and that is from Alison Demming from Try County Tech
Speaker 1: Temporarily insane with rage. It's right, I don't blame her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was That was a good episode, dude, one of
Speaker 1: the best. Yeah. Thanks Alison, Yeah, thanks a lot, Alison.
Speaker 1: Thanks for writing in with the support. We agree with
Speaker 1: you wholeheartedly. It's passion. It's not anger, that's right, man,
Speaker 1: Or maybe it's anger. I don't want to tell you
Speaker 1: how may feel, man, Chuck, you're killing at the stays.
Speaker 1: So if you want to get in touch with us,
Speaker 1: you can go to stuff you Should Know dot com
Speaker 1: and check out our social links. I'm at the Josh
Speaker 1: Clarkway dot com and world via email at stuff podcast
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