1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline and Caroline. I don't want to 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: alarm our listeners, but the fact of the matter is, 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: there is an epidemic sweeping the nation of the United 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: States of America, and there is no vaccine. There is 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: no cure. Well there might well there could be cures 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: like matchmakers or Tinder possibly or e harmony. More like Caroline, 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the single hood thing. Yeah, women better 10 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: watch out because this plague of single tom is coming 11 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: for you. It's coming for you and your cats and 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: your campbell soup cans. I don't know what else is 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: in the stereotype. Yeah, women do eat lots of soups, 14 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: your floral dresses. I don't know who knows. You would think, though, 15 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: in the way that the media have reported on marriage 16 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: trends downward trends in the US in the past few years, 17 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: that it is some terrifying epidemic that we should be 18 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: bracing ourselves for, especially if we're women, Because a lot 19 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: of the focus and the panic is on women who 20 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: have never been married are totally okay with that and 21 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: might have no interest in ever getting married. Yeah, I'm 22 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: not sure what society considers worse to be worse, Uh, 23 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: someone who hasn't ever been married in is single, um, 24 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: but who could potentially get married one day, or the 25 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: person who completely opts out of the system altogether and says, 26 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: n now I'm joining this whole single by choice thing. 27 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm good on my own, getting off the 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: marriage grid. Yeah, exactly what we do have some to 29 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: share with you to kick things off in this single 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: by Choice episode because the fact of the matter is, 31 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: regardless of choice, there is a record number of Americans 32 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: who have never been married. And Caroline, I mean, we're 33 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: actually part of this group, so high five. This is 34 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: coming from the Pure Research Center from September. Yeah, so 35 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: as of one in five adults who were twenty five 36 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: and older, that's about forty two million people had never 37 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: been married. And compare that to nineteen sixty and that 38 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: number was just one in ten or just nine percent 39 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: of adults. Now, men are actually more likely to never 40 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: have been married, and that has a gender gap that 41 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: has widened over those decades since the sixties, And so 42 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 1: what's up with that? Well, a lot of people are saying, well, 43 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, people are marrying later, more people are cohabitating, 44 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: So it's not that they're single per se, but they're 45 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: single in the legal sense of being unmarried. But they 46 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: still might be living together having a few kids. But 47 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: there's also an educational component. Pew pointed out that this 48 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: marriage rate decline has been steepest for the least educated 49 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: among US, especially men, and the smallest for college grads, 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: especially women. So it sounds like, uh, all the college 51 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,119 Speaker 1: grads male and female are getting together. Yeah, And this 52 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: educational component is something often highlighted when we break down 53 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: these marriage statistics among African Americans because at this point, 54 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: Black women are graduating college at twice the rate of 55 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: Black men, and this percentage of never married is the 56 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: largest among Black men and women. But a lot of times, 57 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: when it comes to whether it's single by choice, it's not. 58 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: Choice is not as huge of a factor because this 59 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: Pew research found that a larger proportion of the African 60 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: Americans pulled agreed with the statement that it's important to 61 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: get married to someone that you want to be with forever. 62 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: So marriage is very much idealized within those communities. But 63 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:21,239 Speaker 1: for educated black women seeking equally educated and upwardly mobile 64 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: black men, it's simply harder to find those partners. Well. 65 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: Speaking of attitudes and idealizing marriage, people are pretty evenly 66 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: split over whether society is better off with people focusing 67 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: on marriage and kids or not. And then you've got 68 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: thirty two. If you're looking at the people who are 69 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: have never been married, they're not divorced, they're not widowed 70 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: of never married adults say they're not sure whether they 71 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: want to marry. Percent of them say they never want to. 72 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: But let's get into an international perspective. This is a 73 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: fall two thousand five report in the journal Marriage and 74 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: Child well Being. They found that despite record low marriage 75 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: rates in the US that everybody's panicking about, there's been 76 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: a million think pieces and we read every single one 77 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: of them about this topic for this episode, marriage is 78 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: actually more prevalent here in the US than in nearly 79 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: any other developed Western nation. And not only is it 80 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: more prevalent, it's a more prevalent ideal. And they cited 81 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: two thousand one survey, so a little bit dated, but 82 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: it found that ten percent of Americans and that numbers 83 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: probably higher now said marriage was an outdated institution. And 84 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: if you zero in on the millennials answering that question, 85 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: that percentage goes up much higher. And then compare that 86 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: though with thirty six percent of French people who were like, yeah, 87 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: no need for marriage, it's outdated. I was about to 88 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: attempt a French accent, but then last minute decided not to. 89 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: And then twenty six percent of British people also agreed 90 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: that Mary is outdated. So it seems like this idea 91 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: of marriage is this very sacred institution that we need 92 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: to protect, is something that very much flourishes in the 93 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,799 Speaker 1: United States. Not so surprising considering all of the legal 94 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: rigamarole that has gone on surrounding gay marriage. Yeah, well, 95 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: this whole whether you believe that marriage is outdated or not, 96 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: it does tend to match the level of religious affiliation 97 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: in various countries. But yeah, like you said, I mean 98 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: that the idea of marriage and the marriage ideal itself 99 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: has been woven into the American fabric from the get go. Basically, 100 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: it's always been seen as a building block of society 101 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,799 Speaker 1: from colonial times, and when you go back to that era, 102 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: colonial times and also around the Revolution, unmarried folks were 103 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: penalized by higher taxes in order to quote unquote encourage 104 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: people to get married and pop out a bunch of 105 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: new citizens. Of course, this hasn't really changed today because 106 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: singles still pay higher taxes than married people who are 107 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: filing jointly. Yeah, there are over one thousand tax breaks 108 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: for married people compared to single people. Um. In eight also, 109 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: Supreme Court Justice Stephen Field wrote quote marriage as creating 110 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: the most important relation in life, as having more to 111 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: do with the morals and civilization of a people than 112 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: any other institution. Has always been subject to the control 113 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: of the legislature, and again that is something that we're 114 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: still dealing with today. Are the American government has always 115 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: been very much invested in its straight citizens pairing up 116 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: and marrying off. Yeah, I mean, there you have it. 117 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: It's wrapped up with morals and it is called the 118 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: most important relation in life. And so it's really no 119 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: surprise that there's a lot of single hood stigma out there, 120 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: which is referred to as singleism. And this is a 121 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: term coined in two thousand five by social psychologist Bella 122 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: de Paulo, who refers to herself as single at heart, 123 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: i e. Single by choice and she says that single 124 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: is who I really am, and Apolo is definitely the 125 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: name that comes up in any story you read about 126 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: the single by choice movement or just about people who 127 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: are sort of getting off the marriage track. Yeah, she's 128 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: led the research on tracking the so called singleism as 129 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: she's called as she calls it, She's written books. She 130 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: is also very much a public advocate for single people 131 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: enjoying the same kinds of both legal and also professional 132 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: benefits as married people do just by virtue of being married. 133 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: And DePaulo also says that because of this sort of 134 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: figurative marriage squeeze that we're experiencing right now, this sort 135 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: of moral panic over more and more people hopping off 136 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: the marriage track, that we're actually seeing as a response 137 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: to that, this thing that she refers to his matro mania, 138 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: it's this unprecedented glorification of couples and of marriage because 139 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: those marriage numbers are dropping, and so as a response, 140 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: people are like, oh, marriage is amazing. And she says 141 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: that those who don't have it are pitied, and those 142 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: who don't want it though, which is what we're really 143 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: digging into in this episode, are threatening because you are 144 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: not only an outlier. But you're an outlier by choice. 145 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: What does that say about you? What does that mean 146 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: about society at large? If we're choosing not to marry, 147 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: then well, how will the family units progress? How will 148 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: we have children? Caroline exactly? I have no idea how 149 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: people have children? How does I don't know how that works. 150 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: I think we'll have to do another podcast really dig 151 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: into that. Yeah. Well, people are afraid of single women 152 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: in particular, as we've emphasized several times already. H This 153 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: is coming from a two thousand and four team paper 154 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: by Kennett, Lahad and Haim has On called the Terror 155 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: of the sing Old Maid on the Insolubility of a 156 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: cultural category, and they write that the old maid is 157 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: an undisputable cultural trope that serves to scare women into 158 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: catching a husband, and this figure the single woman, is 159 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 1: a perversion of social order. And they write that single women, 160 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: particularly when you get into the issue of single women 161 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: who are entering their mid to late thirties, are commonly 162 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: and popularly represented as lonely, miserable, ugly, stubborn, and overly selective. 163 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: What are you doing being choosy over there? You don't 164 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: have time to be choosing your thirty five death's just 165 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: right around the corner, but as settle down as soon 166 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: as possible, And they cited a separate study back in 167 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: the nineties seventies which found singles living alone were likelier 168 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:53,359 Speaker 1: to be characterized as less friendly, colder, less attractive, more private, 169 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: less extroverted, and lonelier than people living with roommates, not 170 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: even married people just like, just please live in a 171 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,479 Speaker 1: space with other people. Come on, really making us nervous. 172 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: And this is especially true for the aging older single woman. 173 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: And by older, we're not talking about your sixties, we're 174 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: talking about your thirties here. Yeah, there's this whole idea 175 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: of the single woman aging faster than the married woman. 176 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: Basically that there's something almost scary and unfortunate about the 177 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: woman who chooses to be single, because oh, well, if 178 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: you're thirty four and you're married, that's great because you 179 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: found your your safe relationship and you still have time 180 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: to pop out seven kids, great role with it. Whereas 181 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: the single woman who's thirty four, thirty five, however old, uh, 182 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: it's almost like her clock is running out faster than 183 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: other people's. And this is also pattern studied within gay 184 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: male culture which I thought was interesting because if we're 185 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: looking at different subsets of the population, game in judge 186 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: their gay mail peers to be middle aged and older 187 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: earlier than society at large does. In other words, straight 188 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: people might judge a gay single man to be oh, well, 189 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: he's he's young and healthy, looking, great for a good job, 190 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: good job guy, he's a bachelor, a bachelor. But within 191 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: gay mail culture they are judged to be getting older. 192 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: The clock is ticking, just like it is for single women. Yeah. 193 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: In that paper, they really highlighted the difference between a 194 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: woman with a child who's thirty five being still termed 195 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: a young mother, but a woman not only single, but 196 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: it's really not being a mother as well. It's like 197 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: not having a husband and also not having a kid. 198 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: Then it ages you even faster. So there are lots 199 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: of lots of layers to this thing. But what about 200 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: those people? And so you know what, I don't care 201 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: if you call me a spenster or an old maid. 202 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: I enjoy my age, I enjoy being single. Who are 203 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: these people, Well, there are a growing number of them, 204 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: as we mentioned. According to a two thousand six report 205 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: from Pew Research Center, fifty per cent of the never 206 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: married survey, participants had zero interest in seeking a romantic partner. 207 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: They're like, listen, I'm doing me. It's cool. Yeah. Well, 208 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: back to Lahad and Hasan, they write that these women 209 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: in in the statistic well and men. But you know, seriously, 210 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: people are so afraid of single women are unsettling the 211 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: basis of hegemonic heteronormativity, which assumes that the joy and 212 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: meaning of life can only be found and getting married. 213 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: So they're upsetting the balance. Not only do we think 214 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: they're just a little weird and could potentially be cat ladies, 215 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: you know, casting spells from their apartment, but they are 216 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: upsetting the balance of society that has been ingrained in 217 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: our culture since the beginning. Well, you're nobody until you're 218 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: somebody's Caroline, right, That's like, that's like scientific fact. Can 219 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: we write a musical about this? It sounds like the 220 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: perfect the perfect song and included in our single Single 221 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: by Choice musical. Yes, yes, answer, yes. But people don't 222 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: even believe, especially single women's choices and motivations for being single. 223 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: We have a really hard time believing the woman who's 224 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: like I'm single and loving it, Like no, no, no, no, no, no, 225 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: no, No No, you are tricking yourself. You're in denial. There's 226 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: no way you could be happy. Yeah. Boston Magazine in 227 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: January interviewed hard Harvard Medical School professors Jacqueline Olds and 228 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: Richard Schwartz, who are married by the way um, and 229 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: the magazine was looking at the whole single by Choice 230 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: movement and pros and cons and all that stuff. And 231 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: there's this big assumption that the people who opt for 232 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: single hood had a bad childhood. Old, for instance, says 233 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: that most of her patients who say they choose to 234 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: be single have grown up in a family situation where 235 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: quote love looked awful. So we assume that you must 236 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: have had something terrible happened to you. We also assume 237 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: that you're selfish or so socially stunted. She Olds talks 238 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: about how we're raising a generation of individualists who haven't 239 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: been taught to compromise. And there is Caroline, a feature 240 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: film encompassing all of these stereotypes called Adult Children of 241 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: Divorce starring Adam Scott. Also features Amy Poehler and other 242 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: hilarious people. But it's all of these stereotypes wrapped in one. 243 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, It's about Adam Scott who's like, I don't 244 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: want to get married. My parents got divorced and now 245 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: I have a hard time committing. But the happy ending 246 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: is that he gets married. See this is a musical. Yeah, 247 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: I know, I'm already working on it. They also point 248 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: out the idea that are high standards about marriage lead 249 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: to a sort of social paralysis. Basically, the cultural view 250 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: that your spouse should be your soul mate and your 251 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: best friend and the only person in the universe for you. 252 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: It is kind of intimidating to people, and so old 253 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: and not that that's not true, not that that's not 254 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: kind of intimidating, and like, man, I have to find 255 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: someone who's literally a perfect for me. But it's the 256 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: whole point that Olds and Schwartz are saying that this 257 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: is why people are choosing to be single, not for 258 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: any other reason, like just wanting to live your life 259 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, it's like we can't let this be 260 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: a simple decision, Like we're on the outside trying to 261 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: overly complicate what for a lot of people is just 262 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: what naturally feels right after them. But when we look 263 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: at more objective research on people who are single by choice, 264 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: and this has been going on now for a while. 265 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: It turns out that they aren't all sitting at home 266 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: lonely with their cats, just saying to themselves single and 267 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: loving it. I swear I'm single. They're clutching a mug 268 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: that staring in the mirror and stroking their their the 269 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: reflection of their face. Yeah, that's right. We've got a 270 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: couple of people who have done some research into the 271 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: basically the life choices of of people who are committed 272 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: to being single. There was a two thousand to study 273 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Advertising Research kind of looking at 274 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: who the single, particularly the single by choice consumer is. 275 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: Is this a person who's huddled in his or her 276 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: apartment not wanting to associate with people, or is this 277 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: someone who's actually going to go out and buy your products? 278 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: And they found kind of unsurprisingly that single adults, especially 279 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: those that are young and single by choice, seek busy 280 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: and active lives. They're constantly on the go, and they 281 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: say that singles have a unique lifestyle. They're often well 282 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: educated and earning good salaries, and they only have themselves 283 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: as financial burdens. They also enjoy more free time, which 284 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: they fill with a variety of self based activities and 285 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: often have only themselves to satisfy. And they did highlight 286 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: some differences though, between people who are single by choice 287 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: and those who are single by circumstance, And they note 288 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: and keep in mind that this is in the Journal 289 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: of Advertising Research, this is very marketing focused. So they 290 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: found that a single by choice people would engage in 291 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: more active and hedonic behaviors like convenience and variety seeking, 292 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: low price consciousness, and more innovative kinds of purchases, so 293 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: they're a little bit more adventurous, whereas people who are 294 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: single by circumstance used more compensating and coping behaviors like 295 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: watching TV and being brand conscious. So they boil all 296 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: all single people in general down to people who want 297 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: to fill the gaping holes in their lives, whether they're 298 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: single by choice or single by circumstance. They want to 299 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: fill those holes with your branded items so they can 300 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: develop a relationship with your brand that they apparently can't 301 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: develop with another human. Yeah, they're basically like, Okay, to 302 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: what degree are these people impulsive buyers? And how can 303 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: we capitalize on that? But it's interesting, you know, I 304 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: I tend to poopoo marketing and advertising and things like that. 305 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: But it is interesting to see that research into these 306 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: people is coming out of advertising research. It's like we're 307 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: getting more information about Hey, they're not pathetic. Oh my god, 308 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: shocking news, you know, breaking news. Single people aren't pitiful 309 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: from advertisers. They're like, no, they actually live pretty cool 310 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: lives and they want our branded kayak to go with it. 311 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: And that's something too that n y U professor and 312 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: author of the book Going Solo, Eric Kleinberg, has confirmed 313 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: in more recent research that he's conducted on people who 314 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: are single by choice, and he told the New York 315 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: Times quote, what we've learned in the past fifty years 316 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: is that people will of alone whenever and wherever they 317 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: can afford to do it. So we enjoy a lot 318 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: of us humans that kind of just sort of basic 319 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: solitude to begin with, even in the sense of having 320 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: a living space just to ourselves. Yeah, but Kleinenberg says, 321 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, we're not so alone and self absorbed that 322 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: we can't actually care about other people and developed interests 323 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: outside of ourselves. He interviewed more than three hundred single 324 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: people and found that living alone tends to encourage more 325 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: social interaction. Basically, uh, the single people he talked to 326 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: were more likely to spend time with friends and neighbors, 327 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: go to restaurants, and attend art classes and lectures. And 328 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: of the people who were living alone after a breakup 329 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: or divorce, for instance, many of them opted to live 330 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: alone rather than with family or roommates because they had 331 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: found there was nothing worse than living with the wrong person. 332 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: And that is more general, that's beyond just the single 333 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: by choice stuff, But I mean, it's I think it's 334 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: important to emphasize that people just because you live alone 335 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: or you are single or unmarried, it doesn't mean that 336 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: you're living an unfulfilling life. And a lot of people 337 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: still though, will criticize and say, oh, well, they're trying 338 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: to fill all those holes that they couldn't fill with children, 339 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: with you know, going to art museums, and it's like, well, 340 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, it doesn't sound too bad. Well, in 341 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: that research jives anecdotally with my research thinking about my 342 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: level of sociability in times being single and in times 343 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, being in relationships and you're nesting and you're 344 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 1: making dinner at home and like you just have your 345 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: little place with you a little person, and you're gonna 346 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: watch Way You Too Much Netflix because it's really nice. 347 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: But when you're single, it does kind of force you 348 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 1: in a way to go out and do things and 349 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: see other people and other studies. I'm sure we've excited 350 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: this on the podcast in a previous episode, but um, 351 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: it's it's the study looking at social involvement of single 352 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: people versus married people, and researchers have found that single 353 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: people are way more likely to volunteer, They're way more 354 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: likely to be like a solid and involved member of 355 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: the community versus married people. And that's not to say 356 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: that married people are bad or they're uninvolved or uninterested. 357 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: It's just that when you have kids and a wife 358 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: or a husband or whoever, you know you're going to 359 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: dedicate rightfully, so a lot of time to that nuclear family. 360 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: When you're single, you have more energy and time to 361 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: dedicate to the world around you well. And in that 362 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: oversight of the rich lives of single people is something 363 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: that can be really frustrating if you're single in the workplace, 364 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: and people might assume that if you're single and or 365 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: don't have kids, then when the holidays come, like you 366 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: can bear the brunt of it, right Because we have 367 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: these responsibilities, or if you have a sick kid, then 368 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: you have you can leave to go do things. But 369 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: if you're single and you need a little time off, 370 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: then you might get a little bit more of a 371 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: scrutinizing eyebrow raise. And I think it's also worth noting 372 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: to um in regard to Kleinberg talking about the people 373 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: living alone post breakup or divorce, that single by choice 374 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: can also happen to not never married or ever married people. 375 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: It's something that some people will get married and then 376 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: get divorced and then be like, you know what, single 377 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: by choice from now on? Yeah, exactly. Well, there's so 378 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: much more to talk about in terms of choice, but 379 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: also in terms of how that intersects with feminism and 380 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: just the fabulous stereotypes that women have to face as 381 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: single people. But we will get into that right after 382 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: a break. So in the first half of the podcast, 383 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: we laid some statistical groundwork that more and more people 384 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: are choosing not to get married or just delaying marriage 385 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: to a degree that makes a lot of older people 386 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: really nervous, and there is a lot of discomfort, particularly 387 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: when it comes not to single by circumstance, but to 388 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: single by choice, especially when that choice is made by women. 389 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: And and Kate Bollock launched a thousand responses, got a 390 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: fantastic book deal, and got so much attention in two 391 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: thousand eleven with a piece that she wrote for The 392 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: Atlantic magazine All the Single Ladies, about her the point 393 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: that she's reached in her life at that point in 394 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: her what late thirties, basically saying, you know what, I'm 395 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: single and I might mingle, but I don't know. Yeah, 396 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: at she'd broken up with her great boyfriend because something 397 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: was missing and she wasn't ready to settle down. And 398 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: she basically said that she was inspired indirectly or directly 399 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: by the post boomer ideology of seeking that missing something 400 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: and the second wave feminism idea of not settling down 401 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: or just finding a husband, just because she said it 402 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: was part of this idea that she was immersed in 403 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: of hey, let's spend our twenties finding ourselves and surely 404 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: the husband will come later. Well he didn't, and she eventually, 405 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: as she's writing this article, opts out of dating and 406 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: relationships and getting married. And she said that she kind 407 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: of reached this point where listen, I don't want to 408 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: see my single life as this provisional you know, in 409 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: between step before I finally have a fulfilling life at 410 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: whatever age. That fulfilling life, of course being equated to 411 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: a husband. But she says that it's so hard to 412 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: get other people to see that point of view. Yeah, 413 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: she writes, quote the single woman is very rarely seen 414 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: for who she is, whatever that might be, by others 415 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: or even by the single woman herself. So thoroughly do 416 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: most of us internalize the stigmas that surround our status 417 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: because we are constantly surrounded by messages and images of 418 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: the complete woman. The idea of quote unquote having it 419 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: all is what it's a married woman with children and 420 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: a job. She's she's that awful stock image photo of 421 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: the woman with the octopus arms who's juggling like a 422 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: baby and a has been and like bathroom cleaning supplies 423 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: and briefcase got always the briefcase, always the briefcase. I 424 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: think they carry the baby in the briefcase. I like 425 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: to think that, or that the briefcase is just full 426 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: of diapers. Um Well. Bolic is one of many writers who, 427 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: over the past several years have noted that this whole 428 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: shebang is part of an entire generational swing. Basically, as 429 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: women have climbed higher, men have fallen behind, and it 430 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: no longer behooves us to quote unquote marry up. And 431 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: Bolic does point out that this echoes glorious steynham statement 432 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: decades earlier that we are becoming the men we wanted 433 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: to marry. And we really saw the emergence of the 434 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: so called elite single professional woman emerging in academic literature 435 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: around two thousand four, and we found this highlighted in 436 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: a paper published in the Journal of International Women's Studies, 437 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:59,719 Speaker 1: which notes how this elite single professional woman faces similar 438 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: sins of societal prejudices no matter what country she's in, 439 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: whether she's in the US or in Germany, Poland, or India, 440 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 1: which were the countries highlighted. Yeah. The authors claimed that 441 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: this single professional woman is the first new global sociological 442 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: phenomenon of the twenty one century, which is pretty impressive. 443 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: It's two thousand four and they're already saying this, Yeah, 444 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: screw hindsight, where we know this is happening right now. 445 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: I also appreciated the Ally mcbell references in the introduction Yeah, 446 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: I know, and the judging Amy references. That's another show 447 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: I watched with Deep cut ow Um. So yeah, they 448 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: say that this woman, the SPW. They write that this SPW, 449 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: the single professional woman, has successfully entered positions of economic, political, 450 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: and social power with paid work in the formal sector. 451 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: So you know, why does she need She doesn't need anybody, 452 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: She doesn't need to be a trophy wife, she doesn't 453 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: need to be a kept woman. She has developed her 454 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: own power. And then they point out that as the 455 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: American brand of individualism and economic empowerment for women has 456 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: gone global, the bar is rising for qualities that are 457 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: acceptable in a mate. And the authors note the same 458 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: kind of two part life pattern that Bollock experience is 459 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: becoming common. So in your twenties, you quote unquote find yourself, 460 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: and then by the time you reach your late thirties, 461 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: you're kind of either the point of total panic and 462 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: regret for spending all that time in your twenties finding 463 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: yourself instead of finding a husband, or you experience what 464 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: they call the blossoming of the single female lifestyle potential, 465 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: which also kind of sounds like a tagline for a 466 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: Chico Ladies, Are you blossoming this spring? Try on? New statement? Jewelry. 467 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: It's just a big flower and in the middle it's 468 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: a single and let y'r neck bloom SBC. Well, not 469 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: everybody's drinking the whole single by choice kool aid Susan Wall, 470 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: she's the author of the Hooking Up Smart blog and 471 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: whose praises Kate Bollox sang in her article is basically like, yeah, right, okay, sure. 472 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: So not only she very skeptical of this whole single 473 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: by choice movement, but she is asking why do you 474 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: have to be shaming married people? Not that I think 475 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: Black was trying. I don't think that's what she was 476 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: trying to do at all. I just think she's saying, 477 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, I have a valid life choice as well. 478 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: This is how my life is shaken out, and I'm 479 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: cool with it. But while she's a little I've ventured 480 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: to say she's a little judge. Yeah, she predicts shaming 481 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: of married people escalating in the next twenty years, as quote, 482 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: women engage in whatever cognitive dissonance or hamster wheeling is 483 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: necessary to find an escape from singleism and more importantly, 484 00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: a nagging sense of personal disappointment. So she's not buying it. 485 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: But I do think that Walsh is setting up a 486 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: kind of a false either or of like we're gonna 487 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: pitt singles versus the marriage and they can do get 488 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: out and whoever wins gets nothing because we all die. 489 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, I mean I I think she's basically 490 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: saying that, hey, women don't start out wanting to be single, 491 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: they end up there and it's a forced choice. She 492 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: is saying that it's a forced choice. And she says 493 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: that it remains to be seen whether twenty something women 494 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: will get on board before they know whether they will 495 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: even have the opportunity to marry. She says, I suspect 496 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: that the up and coming generation of women views these 497 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: celebrations of singleness as a cautionary tale. And I don't know, 498 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. I do know that recent studies have 499 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: shown that the millennial generation is on the whole rather 500 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,479 Speaker 1: conservative when it comes to stuff like this. Um. And 501 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: so it is interesting to see generation by generation who's 502 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: reacting to social movements and and things like that. Um. 503 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: But oh, that is not that is not a very 504 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: complimentary stance that you only essentially end up as single 505 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: by choice if you've run out of options. Well, and 506 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: and to support this Walsh. Um points to an incident 507 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: that Kate Bollock also wrote about in her article. Um. So, 508 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: Kate Bollock goes over to dinner at Walsh's house, who 509 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: has like a bunch of young I think they're like 510 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: in their early college years girls hanging out for Kate 511 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: to talk about this whole single by choice thing. And 512 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: at one point Kate Pollock asked the young women at 513 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: dinner whether her single status at the age of thirty 514 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: nine freaked them out, and all of the girls nodded, saying, yeah, 515 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: that that doesn't sound like what I want. That doesn't 516 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: sound like my fairy tale that pop culture tells me 517 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,479 Speaker 1: I should have. Yeah, And all these young women basically 518 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: saying that one day they would plan on prioritizing family 519 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: and marriage over a career. But I mean, Balack wasn't 520 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: that different, she said, And you know, she was writing 521 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: about her twenties and college years and saying that, yeah, 522 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: marriage was just something I took for granted, like it's 523 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: going to happen, and I will eventually like meet and 524 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: fall in love with a great man and marry him 525 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: and he'll be my life and blah blah blah. But 526 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: right now, I'm my life, and I'm going to go 527 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: find out more about my life by traveling and working 528 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: and all that stuff. So it's not it's not that 529 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: she necessarily set out with the goal of being single 530 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: by choice, and not everybody does. Sure, some people do 531 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: fall into it and say, you know what, this is 532 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: better for me, now, this is the choice I'm making now. Um, 533 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: But those young women definitely are in line with what 534 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: Kate Ballack's experience was, you know, on her own. But 535 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: even this idea that, oh, well, you're prioritizing your career 536 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: over marriage and family, that's that even misses the point 537 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: of what Kate Ballack and Bella de Apollo and all 538 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: these other people are saying, like, I don't. From my 539 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: reading of the Atlantic piece, Kate Bollock wasn't working herself 540 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: out of relationship. She was dating a lot of people 541 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: and getting into long term, serious relationships. She simply got 542 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: to a point where she was like, I just don't. 543 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: I'm not going to worry about it anymore. And it 544 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: didn't seem to have anything to do with I don't 545 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: have time to worry about it because I have all 546 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: these board meetings, which is something different, and I just 547 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: think it's really interesting that it's usually for single women. 548 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: It usually is posed and reframed as like, oh, well, 549 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: they must just be choosing their you know, feminist e 550 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: career things instead of becoming a wife and mother, which 551 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: it's like, no, can I just can I have my 552 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: job and also have my relationship with myself and my friends? 553 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: I mean I noticed that to go off on attention, 554 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: I noticed that same thing in when you see I 555 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: U d ads and magazines, especially for Skyla, which is 556 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: the type of I D I have, And it's specifically 557 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: targeted to younger women who've never been married, never had kids, 558 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: and they're just not ready yet. And so there's one 559 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: ad where it shows a cello coming down the slye 560 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: and the woman catching it like it's her kid, and 561 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: it's like, right now, my kid is my music career 562 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: or whatever, And it's the same kind of thing. It's 563 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: like or or yes, she has a fulfilling, balanced life 564 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: and just doesn't want to be a mom, yeah, or 565 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be an either, or right, couldn't 566 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: it be a both? I know a young mother who 567 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: plays the cello, so yes, we can have it all. Like, wait, 568 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: is the cello, her baby, caroly I don't understand. Yeah, 569 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: she's the cello, Yes she does. Yes, and yes she 570 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: is a mother of a baby and a cello cello. 571 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: They're twins. Well, this whole conversation about choice either or feminism, careers, etcetera, 572 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: leads us to the really fascinating wrinkle in all of this, 573 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: pointed out again by Kindert Lahad, the Israeli researcher that 574 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: we cited earlier in another paper she published in called 575 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: the single woman's choice as a zero sum game, And 576 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: she really focuses in on how quote choice has become 577 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: a cultural obligation, deeply ingrained in the neoliberal, post feminist, 578 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:32,399 Speaker 1: therapeutic and consumerist norms, and she finds that rather problematic 579 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: at times. Yeah, and basically this is the notion that 580 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: the minute an act is articulated as a choice, it's 581 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: considered a feminist act. Um. And she asks, does this 582 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: really set us free or is it just ammunition for 583 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 1: people to dismiss those choices, especially if you're a woman. 584 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: We still have not culturally gotten over the whole hysterical, floating, 585 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 1: floating uterus thing. We're still there, I think a little 586 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 1: bit mentally. Um, and she's wondering, based on past research, 587 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: does this quote unque choice feminism promote a false sense 588 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: of autonomy by placing autonomous choice and self actualization as 589 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: its highest values. In other words, is personal choice now 590 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: trumping bigger political actions? Are we pitting choice and single 591 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: hood against non choice and marriage? And also, hello, are 592 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: we forgetting women who, based on a variety of life factors, 593 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: don't even really get to choose? Yeah? And in investigating this, 594 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 1: she reviewed responses to an online column on what Sounds 595 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: Like sort of, the Israeli version of Huffington Posts like 596 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: the country's most popular blogging platform. And this column was 597 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: written by a woman describing her choice to be single 598 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: and being fine and happy with it and also highlighting 599 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: the advantages of being single by choice and what she 600 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: found in the variety of responses, and there were hundreds 601 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: of responses to this column because it is a hot 602 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: button topic. Um she found in plain English that essentially 603 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: single by choice and making choices focused can be a 604 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: double edged sword that both enables women to resist traditional 605 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: familiar forms but then also potentially lead people to cast 606 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: doubt and delegitimize this option of autonomy and individuality. Yeah. 607 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: So some of the social interpretations of choice that she 608 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: found one denote that single women are endowed with a 609 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: partial and incomplete subjectivity. So basically, what happens if you fall? 610 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: What will your cat eat you? Who will take care 611 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: of you when you get old? Your cat? Kristen, your 612 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: cat were we've said that it's your cat. Basically, there's 613 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: no way anyone would choose to be an aging spinster. 614 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: You must be crazy or you're just covering up the 615 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: fact that you couldn't find a man. Oh and hey, 616 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: that choice you made, it's dumb. You'll eventually figure it 617 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: out and your ovaries will lead you in the direction 618 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: of the right decision. And Lahad rights that these restrictions 619 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: are part of quote post feminist portraits of ambitious, working, 620 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: and yet unhappy single women. This form of skepticism can 621 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: be seen as a post feminist backlash or a new traditionalism, 622 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: and a lot of the comments that we're saying, hey, 623 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: you only have partial subjectivity. These women are depicted as 624 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 1: being too choosy, but their choices are neither healthy, nor authentic, 625 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: nor knowledgeable. And then on the flip side of that 626 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: of that partial and incomplete subjectivity, these responses the social 627 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: interpretations of choice to indicate that this choice of single 628 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: hood signifies a radical option for claiming single hood as 629 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: a long term way of life. So these are the 630 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: people saying, you know what good for you that you 631 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: can do it. Nuclear family doesn't have to be the 632 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 1: own the only option. You're so brave, you're so strong 633 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: to do this on your own. Well done woman. Yeah, 634 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: basically saying that single hood is a legitimate identity, It 635 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: is not a stepping stone. Singlehood is not always are 636 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: necessarily a stepping stone to being married, having a family. 637 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: And Lahat points out that this is a very interesting 638 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,760 Speaker 1: and almost unexpected response in a country like Israel, which 639 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: is you know, very conservative, very traditional, family oriented, very 640 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: like pro let's have babies. I mean, along this that 641 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: not not so different from the US in terms of 642 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: those attitudes. After all, the US is the one with 643 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: the lowest rate of people saying that marriage doesn't need 644 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 1: to happen. Well, and it's also notable too that her 645 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,720 Speaker 1: starts really focuses on the implications of this being posed 646 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: as a personal choice because in the US, and we're 647 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,439 Speaker 1: actually going to talk to Lahad and more in depth 648 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: about this in our next podcast. So stay tuned for 649 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: that because in the US, especially when it comes to 650 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: the work of Bella Depolo, and also what Susan Walsh 651 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,919 Speaker 1: was fearing in terms of this marriage backlash is more 652 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: of a political agenda of saying, hey, single people want 653 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: equality to married people as well. So there is personal 654 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: and political all tied up with this. Yeah exactly, But 655 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of the personal, how does labeling yourself 656 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: single by choice, putting on that name tag, how does 657 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: that tend to fit in with personal narratives for yourself 658 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: and about yourself? Uh? Well, according to Lahad study, feminism, choice, 659 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: and single hood are all wrapped up together and become 660 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: almost the core of the woman's identity, whether they're viewing 661 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: you as that strong independent woman or a pathetic single person. 662 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: And according to a paper in the Sociological Review from 663 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, singleness remains a quote deficit identity 664 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 1: because it becomes the single woman's problem to account positively 665 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 1: for her single state, because it's usually like I'm single 666 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: and or but like, you can't just be single in 667 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: the same way that you like if you're married. You 668 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: don't have to say I'm married, and you know what, 669 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: I'm really happy. I'm really happy, promise you. Yeah. You 670 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: basically get to say I'm married a full stop and 671 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: people are like, oh, good for you, you have such 672 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 1: a fulfilling life, when really, who knows, who knows? Who knows? 673 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: You could be in one of those quote greedy marriages 674 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: that some researchers have highlighted in terms of with the 675 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: with the sociability factor of marriage consuming all of you. Yeah, yeah, 676 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 1: well so I've easlee. It goes without saying that this 677 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: conversation has focused mainly on the single woman. We mentioned 678 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: gay male subculture earlier, so what about gay men. This 679 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: is coming from a paper in two thousand nine in 680 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: the Journal of Homosexuality that investigated what it means for 681 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 1: gay men who are thirty five and up to be 682 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,760 Speaker 1: voluntarily single, and they ended up finding a discrepancy between 683 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: your own perception of yourself as single by choice in 684 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: the actual acceptance of and satisfaction with single status. They 685 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,240 Speaker 1: found that, uh, a single by choice did not appear 686 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: to be the most important part of these guys identities. Instead, 687 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: it's almost a personal narrative strategy that they created in 688 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:53,720 Speaker 1: order to preserve ego integrity. But isn't it so fascinating 689 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: that there's been all this research, so much research focus 690 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: on single women. There's been a decent amount research focused 691 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: on single by choice gay men, where the straight man. 692 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,760 Speaker 1: And also there is no mention of lesbians anywhere because 693 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,320 Speaker 1: of the stereotype of like, oh, well, they pair bond 694 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: very quickly and are totally happy and fine, so we 695 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: don't even need to talk about them. But straight men, 696 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 1: even though statistically there are more never married straight dudes 697 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: than ever before, all of the panic, all of the 698 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: think pieces, all of the blog posts are focused on 699 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,919 Speaker 1: straight women. And I think that it has a lot 700 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: to do with that motherhood piece because it's sort of 701 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,720 Speaker 1: the double transgression of not only being single but also 702 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,399 Speaker 1: choosing not to have kids as well, which is still 703 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 1: a radical choice to a lot of people. And whereas 704 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: men are just allowed to be bachelors if they want 705 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,760 Speaker 1: to be. Yeah, that there is no there's no straight 706 00:43:54,760 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: man panic whatever getting getting married. Well, And one thing too, 707 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: that Lahad notes in that zero sum game paper that 708 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,839 Speaker 1: we were just talking about, that there is a bit 709 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: of privilege to that comes with this social single by 710 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: choice conversation, and even just the privilege of having the 711 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: choice because she mentions that women of color are often 712 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: left all these conversations as well. I mean, in Kate 713 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 1: Bollock's Peace, She's white. A lot of the people that 714 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: she's talking to are all white. It's like, you, you 715 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: have to get to a certain educational level, to a 716 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: certain socio economic level where you are even presented the choice. Yeah, 717 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, especially when Ballack refers to a lot 718 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: of the older women, like retirement age women who have 719 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: opted to be single, uh and stay unmarried. They there 720 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: is like this air of like, oh wow, these are 721 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 1: these are kind of upper crust women who have a 722 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: really kind of blissful life that they have chosen to 723 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: lead as as single people. Yeah. So there, it's a 724 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating snapshot to see where we are right 725 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: now with it. And I'll be curious to see in say, 726 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: ten years, whether this stigma still remains, because it's pretty entrenched. 727 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: And now I'm curious to hear from listeners what they 728 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: think about it. Do you look at people who are 729 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: single by choice skeptically? Are you single by choice? Do 730 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: you think that this rise of the never married and 731 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: people who don't care to get married, whether they're cohabitating 732 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: with someone or not is a threat to our societal fabric. 733 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: And I am also interested in knowing if you are 734 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: single by choice, how you came upon that choice, because 735 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: that's a huge part of the discussion too, is that 736 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: naysayers are all saying that, no, you just fell into this, 737 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 1: You just it's your second best, it's the second place 738 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: choice because you couldn't get married. But then there are 739 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: other people who say no, no, this is I went 740 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: purposefully in this direction, and so I'm interested to hear 741 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,439 Speaker 1: in in motives. So we await your feedback eagerly. Mom 742 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is our email address, 743 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: and you can always tweet us at mom Stuff podcast 744 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of 745 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now. Well, I have 746 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: a letter here from Joel, He says Joel from Portland, uh, 747 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: in response to our female nudes episode. And Joel, I've 748 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,439 Speaker 1: got to tell you, I don't know if you meant 749 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 1: to be funny, but I laughed out loud so hard 750 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: at this that I really had no choice but to 751 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 1: read it in our listener mail segment. Okay, so Joel says, 752 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 1: I always thought that sculptors covered up lady bits on 753 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,280 Speaker 1: sculptures because pubic hair was just too darn detailed to sculpt. 754 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: I figured they were able to do hair on top 755 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: of heads because they just needed long flowing lines. But 756 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,919 Speaker 1: fine hair in such a small area would maybe come 757 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,800 Speaker 1: out looking like a vagina covered by him a range cookie. 758 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 1: Thanks for the show, oh man. That imagery, Uh, it's 759 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: I just can't like, I can't, I can't get the 760 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: imagery out of my head. It is amazing. I do 761 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,280 Speaker 1: now want a sculpture of a nude, a nude sculpture 762 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,680 Speaker 1: showing just a marangue cookie over the lady bits. But 763 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 1: I do wonder, Jalt, what about the dude sculptures that 764 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: have pubic hair. Yeah, I will say it doesn't really 765 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,640 Speaker 1: look so much like marangue, but just spaghetti sou So 766 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 1: there's that more imagery. Well, I have another letter here 767 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,680 Speaker 1: from Becca about our female nudes episode, and she has 768 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: some juicy information for us about art critic John Ruskin, 769 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: whom we mentioned. And it's the letters a little bit long, 770 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 1: but listeners, it's totally worth it. So she writes, you 771 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,560 Speaker 1: mentioned as an anecdote the alleged incident where art critic 772 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 1: John Ruskin was horrified by his wife's pubic hair and 773 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 1: refused to consummate their marriage. Indeed, we have no concrete 774 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 1: proof of exactly what occurred on their wedding night. I 775 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,279 Speaker 1: thought i'd share some extra information on the matter. In 776 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: the summer of twelve, Stage managed to play called Blood 777 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: Red Roses by Don Nigro that explores many of the 778 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: stories about the pre Raphaelite erab painters, their critics, and 779 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 1: most importantly, the women in their lives. I'm by no 780 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 1: means an art history expert, but during the rehearsal process 781 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: we heavily researched these stories, including the unraveling of John 782 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: Ruskin's marriage to Effie Gray and his failed attempt at 783 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,879 Speaker 1: romance with another young woman named Rose Latouche. Ruskin took 784 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: a great interest in both of these women when they 785 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,239 Speaker 1: were young girls, and eventually pursue them romantically when they 786 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,879 Speaker 1: were old enough. Effie and John Ruskin had a very 787 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,720 Speaker 1: unhappy marriage that they never consummated. The evidence is vague 788 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,320 Speaker 1: and in many cases biased, but we have come to 789 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 1: understand that Ruskin was repulsed by Effie's body, possibly because 790 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 1: of her pubic hare or by her period. What a 791 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 1: surprise men of rate administration. Anyway, many historians speculate that Ruskin, 792 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,360 Speaker 1: as an art critic, grew to appreciate and adore the 793 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: youthful female figure, but was disgusted by a real adult 794 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,360 Speaker 1: woman's body after seeing one for the first time on 795 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 1: his wedding night. The story ends well for Effie, Thankfully, 796 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,760 Speaker 1: he was eventually able to annul her marriage to Ruskin 797 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: and married successful painter John Everett Malays, with whom she 798 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 1: had nine children. Ruskin later pursued one of his students, 799 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,640 Speaker 1: a young girl named Rose Latouche, when she was of 800 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,680 Speaker 1: consenting age. However, her parents didn't approve of the match 801 00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,400 Speaker 1: and didn't allow the two to marry, despite Ruskin pursuing 802 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,840 Speaker 1: her for years after the initial rejection. Reportedly, after Ruskin 803 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,400 Speaker 1: first proposed to Rose, it was Effie who wrote to 804 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,400 Speaker 1: the girl's parents to warn them that Ruskin wasn't a 805 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,160 Speaker 1: suitable man to be anyone's husband. Another interesting note about 806 00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,759 Speaker 1: Ruskin's distaste of nude bodies, although found to be at 807 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,880 Speaker 1: least partially untrue, is that Ruskin claimed to have destroyed 808 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 1: several works of new drawings and paintings by the artist J. M. W. 809 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 1: Turner to protect his reputation after his death. Some of 810 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,799 Speaker 1: these works were recovered in two thousand five, so he 811 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,800 Speaker 1: didn't destroy everything, but at the very least he certainly 812 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: certainly had a problem with nudity. So thanks for the insight, Becca, 813 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 1: and as always we look forward to your insights as well. 814 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff and how Stuff Works dot com is our 815 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: email address and for links to all of our social 816 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,839 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos and 817 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources so you can learn more about 818 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,239 Speaker 1: singles by choice. Head on over to stuff Mom Never 819 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands 820 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com