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Speaker 1: Hey, what's up everybody.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to politics and I heard

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Speaker 2: podcast and unbothered production.

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Speaker 1: Time to get spolitical canvas.

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Speaker 2: Parker found herself in an unexpected controversy last week when

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Speaker 2: the basketball commentator decided to do something crazy.

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Speaker 1: She gave her opinion about basketball.

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Speaker 3: Cameron Brink I think is the unknown. So I put

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Speaker 3: Cameron Brink on the sea level.

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Speaker 4: I think just in terms.

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Speaker 3: Of her kind of showing glimpses of what she's capable of.

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Speaker 3: I think WNBA, with the space and her length and versatility,

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Speaker 3: she's going to be able to have an impact on

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Speaker 3: the defensive end immediately. Then you got Angel Reese. I

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Speaker 3: put her right at that sea level. I think in

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Speaker 3: terms of being above, you have to be able to

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Speaker 3: have the.

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Speaker 4: Ability to carry a team, be a one or two option.

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Speaker 3: I think Angel Reese is fantastic at her role, which

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Speaker 3: is offensive rebounding, showed and demonstrated so much growth in

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Speaker 3: that first year.

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Speaker 2: Complex asked Candace to give her tears of WNBA players,

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Speaker 2: and the shit hit the absolute fan because of where

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Speaker 2: she ranked Angel Rees. And that's because in that same ranking,

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Speaker 2: Candace ranked a certain player in Indiana here.

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Speaker 3: This is where it gets tricky. Caitlyn Clark is at

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Speaker 3: an a level. I think in time she's going to

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Speaker 3: rease up to that ask. But in order to put

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Speaker 3: her at that level, you got to have a couple

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Speaker 3: more years.

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Speaker 2: Now, maybe Candace didn't know the unofficial rules when it

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Speaker 2: comes to critiquing Caitlyn Clark and the Angel Rees, and

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Speaker 2: that is you can't critique them without pissing off a

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Speaker 2: lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Now, Angel Rees fans let Candace have it.

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Speaker 2: They flooded her Instagram comments, calling her a hater, a sellout,

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Speaker 2: and everything else in between because she, a basketball analyst, gave.

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Speaker 1: An opinion about basketball. Now.

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Speaker 2: It probably didn't help that Angel Reise herself appeared to

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Speaker 2: fire back at Candace on Twitter with this post clout

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Speaker 2: is one hell of a drug. Like it really gets

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Speaker 2: to a point and we're off now. Just as I

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Speaker 2: don't have a problem with Candace giving her opinion, I

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Speaker 2: don't have a problem with Adel Reese appearing to clap back.

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Speaker 2: But here's what I do have a problem with the

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Speaker 2: overprotectiveness of both Taylor Clark and Angel Reese, something neither

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Speaker 2: of these players have asked for, but it's representative of

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Speaker 2: a much larger problem, which Candace Parker pointed out on

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Speaker 2: her podcast Post Moves, which she hosts with Aliah Boston.

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Speaker 2: You recently, you recently went viral for your comments on Angel,

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Speaker 2: people calling you a hater because you put her in

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Speaker 2: your tiar C rankings.

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Speaker 4: What's your response to that?

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Speaker 3: Okay, for those of you that don't know, I did

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Speaker 3: tier ranking, and I'm going to list the players, Asia Wilson, No,

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Speaker 3: Fisa Collier, Brianna Stewart, Caitlin Clark, Kelsey Plum, Sabrina and Nascu,

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Speaker 3: Arika Gumbawalle, Pagebackers, cam Brink, and Injelies. I was asked

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Speaker 3: to tier rank them from S all the way down.

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Speaker 4: To D I believe or E. I think it was

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Speaker 4: actually E.

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Speaker 3: And with that being said, I ranked some players and

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Speaker 3: Asia Wilson and the Fisa Collier and Brianna Stewart as s.

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Speaker 4: The rest kind of fell between A and C.

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Speaker 3: For all of those that are commenting comments under random

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Speaker 3: Instagram posts about me, I didn't even realize that I

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Speaker 3: went viral for this until I realized when I was

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Speaker 3: kind of getting alerts on my Instagram of people being like,

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Speaker 3: you're a hater, all this and all that to all

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Speaker 3: of those.

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Speaker 4: First of all, some are misinformed and uninformed.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like in this day and age, we

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Speaker 3: are very right now a majority of people probably have

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Speaker 3: not even seen the entire interview because we have attention

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Speaker 3: spans like goldfish, and so they probably couldn't sit through

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Speaker 3: the entire interview. But I say all that to say

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Speaker 3: that we have to come to a place in women's

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Speaker 3: basketball where we can critique without being a hater. And

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Speaker 3: I challenge all of you all to understand that I,

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Speaker 3: in no way, shape or form, am a hater. I

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Speaker 3: am going to be facts to the table. And with

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Speaker 3: that being said, the facts that I want to bring

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Speaker 3: to this table. And I challenge anybody to tell me

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Speaker 3: what player are you taking Angel Reese over of those

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Speaker 3: that I just listed.

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Speaker 4: That's the wait for their response, Oh, We're.

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Speaker 3: Not gonna okay, because yeah, but what I'm saying is

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Speaker 3: in what player?

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Speaker 4: And this is no disrespect.

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Speaker 3: These are the greatest players in the game right now.

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Speaker 3: They asked me to rank the tier right now, and

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Speaker 3: I sit in a studio at Turner with Shaq and

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Speaker 3: Chuck and some of which I think at times they

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Speaker 3: do individually and personally attack people's character, and I think

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Speaker 3: I pride myself on trying to be an analyst that

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Speaker 3: does not do that.

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Speaker 4: I do not attack character.

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Speaker 3: I I literally am just from my point of view,

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Speaker 3: from my opinion.

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Speaker 4: This was the ranking.

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Speaker 1: Before I am all of that.

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Speaker 2: Let me say this first, I actually don't agree with

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Speaker 2: Kansas Parker's ranking of Caitlin Clark or Angel Rees. I

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Speaker 2: don't think Caitlin is an eight tier player just yet,

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Speaker 2: especially not this season. She's been hurt most of this season,

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Speaker 2: and even when she has played she shot fourty, She's

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Speaker 2: shooting twenty eight percent from three and is shooting thirty

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Speaker 2: seven percent from the field overall. She's also averaging five

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Speaker 2: turnovers a game, which is unacceptable when she has the

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Speaker 2: ball in her hand as much as she does now.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to Angel, her and Camera Brink aren't

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Speaker 1: on the same tier.

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Speaker 2: Brent, who I saw last week in person when she

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Speaker 2: returned to the court for the first time since tearing

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Speaker 2: her ACL.

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Speaker 1: Over a year ago. She has a lot of potential.

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Speaker 2: She's a terrific rebounder with a nice shooting touch, and

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Speaker 2: is someone who has an extremely high ceiling, But at

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Speaker 2: this point in their careers, Angel is a much better player.

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Speaker 2: Angel is averaging fourteen a game and the league leading

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Speaker 2: twelve rebounds.

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Speaker 1: This season, she became the fastest player in league.

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Speaker 2: History to reach one hundred and fifty rebounds and fifty

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Speaker 2: six in a single season. Now that said, Candace is

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Speaker 2: not only entitled to her opinion, she's paid to give it,

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Speaker 2: and she is right that we have to graduate to

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Speaker 2: a point where we can give honest evaluations about women's players,

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Speaker 2: especially Caitlyn Clark and Angel Reese, without it turning into

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Speaker 2: some kind of civil war. Now, when Clark confronted an

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Speaker 2: official last month, I posted this on threads.

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn Clark's behavior toward.

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Speaker 2: The officials and her tendency to power when her offense

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Speaker 2: isn't working has been a problem since college.

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Speaker 1: She has to be a better leader, period.

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Speaker 2: And because I knew how people will react to my criticism,

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Speaker 2: I added, you're not being a hater by pointing that out.

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Speaker 2: If we're going to praise Caitlin when she's great, then

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Speaker 2: it's born and fair to criticize her when she falls short.

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Speaker 2: Stop the coddling. She doesn't need it. But that didn't

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Speaker 2: stop people from being weird about it. From Emily Ryan

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four fourteen points thirteen says five three defensive

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Speaker 2: boards a block, all while attracting a ton of defensive

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Speaker 2: attention to open up her teammates, responsible for forty of

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Speaker 2: her teams one hundred and three points versus.

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Speaker 1: Dallas, all in twenty four fucking minutes.

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Speaker 2: She's contributing in other ways when the shots aren't falling

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Speaker 2: due to the leg injury. Bitch, she sings nice from

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Speaker 2: HL boy or fifteen. You have been a hateland since

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Speaker 2: day one.

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Speaker 1: Hateland.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of funny. You can't be taken seriously no more.

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Speaker 2: Keep your focus on praising the other w NBA players

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Speaker 2: you love while they not clipboards out of the coach's hand,

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Speaker 2: not players to the ground, scratch people in the eye,

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Speaker 2: yell at the referees, elbowed them in the face, pulling

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Speaker 2: them down to the ground by their hair, calling other

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Speaker 2: players things like bitch ass, punk ass, and shut your

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Speaker 2: fat ass. Continue to celebrate that peace out. Just one

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Speaker 2: hinge now some of Aingerese's fans aren't any better.

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Speaker 1: And another threa is post.

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Speaker 2: In June, I wrote this after Angel rees not her

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Speaker 2: first triple double of her career. In Chicago's win over Connecticut,

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Speaker 2: this is the best this skuy have looked offensively all season.

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Speaker 2: Are Rees has her first career triple double. I haven't

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Speaker 2: loved how Chicago.

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Speaker 1: Has used her.

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Speaker 2: She's at her best as a playmaker and when she

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Speaker 2: can use her athleticism. Agree with Lee so Leslie that

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Speaker 2: she needs to work on our layup package, but she'll

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Speaker 2: get there. Seem pretty but not to me. But that

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Speaker 2: wasn't how Angelice's fans took it from Black veg and Joy.

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Speaker 2: Save the critiques for another day. What does it cost

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Speaker 2: to let someone basket? A moment from Blackbird seven forty seven.

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Speaker 2: That last part totally wasn't needed, especially because you know

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Speaker 2: how people are. People forget that angel was a guard

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Speaker 2: until she had a gross furd, so her playmaking ability.

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Speaker 1: Shouldn't shock anyone. Now.

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Speaker 2: One problem I've observed in women's sports, and especially as

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Speaker 2: it relates to the WNBA, is that there is entirely

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Speaker 2: too much kyling by both the media and the fans.

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Speaker 2: There is nothing wrong with healthy disagree and debate. Arguing

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Speaker 2: about sports can be a lot of fun. Believing, ignorant,

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Speaker 2: and hateful messages on Candice Parker's Instagram page and questioning

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Speaker 2: her blackness over a basketball opinion is silly. Besides, we're

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Speaker 2: not talking about foreign affairs and geopolitical issues here. We're

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Speaker 2: talking about basketball. It ain't never that serious. We should

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Speaker 2: be able to talk about two of the biggest stars

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Speaker 2: in the WNBA and Caitlin Clark and Angelies without taking

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Speaker 2: a trip to toxic town. I'm Jamel Hill, and I

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Speaker 2: approved this message. My guest today recently held one of

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Speaker 2: the most important and powerful positions in all of pro football.

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Speaker 1: For fourteen years, he.

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Speaker 2: Was the executive director of the NFL Players Association, the

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Speaker 2: union that represents nearly seventeen hundred active players concerning all

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Speaker 2: workplace issues. The collective bargaining Agreement benefits for both current

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Speaker 2: and retired players grievances against the league, among other important matters. Now,

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Speaker 2: when you hold this position, you get to see how

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Speaker 2: the sausage is made, and that is not always a

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Speaker 2: pretty sight. My guest wrote about what it was like

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Speaker 2: to sit in this seat, how it was dealing with

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Speaker 2: the NFL owners and what they were really like and

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Speaker 2: what they thought of the players who are the soul

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Speaker 2: of this league, which is the most powerful professional sports

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Speaker 2: organization in America. In his new book, turned Wards, he

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Speaker 2: is extremely candid about his relationship with NFL Commissioner Roger

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Speaker 2: Goodell and powerful owners such as Robert Kraft and Jerry Jones.

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Speaker 2: I also asked him about the nflpa's current leadership controversy,

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Speaker 2: which involves the executive director that followed him resigning after

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Speaker 2: some serious allegations about colluding with the NFL, conflicts of interest,

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Speaker 2: and even a spending spree at Magic City. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean the Strip Club. Coming up next on spolitics, Demorris

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Speaker 2: Smith Dial want to thank you for joining me here

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Speaker 2: on politics. I'm going to start this podcast by asking

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Speaker 2: you a question I ask every guest that appears on politics,

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Speaker 2: and that is name an athlete or a moment that

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Speaker 2: made you love sports.

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Speaker 5: Hmmm. First of all, it's a pleasure to be here

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Speaker 5: in politics. Second, if I had to answer the question

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Speaker 5: Muhammad Ali, I'm in law school, I'm a second year

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Speaker 5: law school student. We're studying criminal procedure and one day

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Speaker 5: in walks Muhammad Ali to our class and my law

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Speaker 5: professor had clerked for Thirdgod Marshal and at the time

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Speaker 5: Ali had at least one of his houses was in Charlottesville.

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Speaker 5: So we were studying the Supreme Court and procedural things

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Speaker 5: on making their way up into the Supreme Court, and

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Speaker 5: in walks Muhammad Ali as a guest speaker, and I

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Speaker 5: don't know if I've ever been speechless, just utterly speechless.

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Speaker 5: So he told the story of you know, him being

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Speaker 5: criminally prosecuted for asserting his religious preference, for not going

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Speaker 5: to the draft. And then the law professor then took

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Speaker 5: it from the procedural ways that this thing ended up

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Speaker 5: working in and out of the court, and you know,

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Speaker 5: the punchline is at the end, the Supreme Court's pure

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Speaker 5: curium decision was really a procedural decision. They didn't really

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Speaker 5: weigh in on whether they believe that he legitimately exercised

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Speaker 5: his religious preference or not because they didn't have the votes.

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Speaker 5: But what they did have the votes for was that

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Speaker 5: there was a violation of procedure and that convergence of

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Speaker 5: somebody as iconic and brave and you know, as an athlete,

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Speaker 5: I would make an argument, I think you can make

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Speaker 5: a pretty good argument that easily the most quintessential, most

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Speaker 5: important athlete in American history, I would say, is Muhammad Ali.

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Speaker 5: So to be there on that day and have all

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Speaker 5: of that converge with like a dorky law school student,

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Speaker 5: you know, learning procedure. Hands down, that's my favorite athlete

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Speaker 5: and favorite moment.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you how much you thought about

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Speaker 2: this as you were beginning your law career, But did

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Speaker 2: you ever look at being a lawyer and sort of

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Speaker 2: marry that with activism.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, I just had this blessing in law school, more

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Speaker 5: dorky than you ever want to know. But when I

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Speaker 5: was in law school, there was this battle between sort

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Speaker 5: of the right wing fundamentalists, you know Scalia crowd, and

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Speaker 5: at the time there was another sort of train of

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Speaker 5: thought in the law called legal the critical Legal Studies movement,

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Speaker 5: and that was sort of a Harvard based movement about,

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Speaker 5: you know, the law should be working to make things

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Speaker 5: more fair to right wrongs, and that you have to

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Speaker 5: understand that the law and the way that the law

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Speaker 5: has developed. You know, over the almost two hundred and

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Speaker 5: fifty years, a whole lot of decisions about race and

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Speaker 5: class engender went into deciding what the law was going

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Speaker 5: to be. And so at that time at UVA, there

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Speaker 5: was this like healthy battle between these folks. So I

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Speaker 5: was blessed because I was literally taught that way. You know,

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Speaker 5: when you step away, you know, my family leaves the

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Speaker 5: Jim crows out and my dad, you know, goes through

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Speaker 5: whatever he goes through. My mom goes through whatever they

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Speaker 5: go through. They both are products of segregated schools, segregated

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Speaker 5: trade schools, predominantly segregated colleges. I just never thought that

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Speaker 5: the law was anything other than it's about making sure

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Speaker 5: that justice was fair. So for me, you know, I

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Speaker 5: was probably a little more conservative than my parents growing up.

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Speaker 5: So by the time I would come home, man, they

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Speaker 5: would just the dinner table was, you know, a blood

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Speaker 5: sport of you know, me trying to like, well, there's

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Speaker 5: this constitutionalist argument, and my parents were like, so which

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Speaker 5: one of the slave owners do you think? Yeah? I mean,

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Speaker 5: and I look back on it now, and it's the

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Speaker 5: best education I could have. One that was great in

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Speaker 5: school and one where I could come home and my

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Speaker 5: parents just never spared truth. And I gave them the

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Speaker 5: first copy of Here for was Yesterday. Yeah, oh he is.

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Speaker 5: My dad is ninety five and my mother's ninety one.

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Speaker 5: What a blessing, complete bussy. Yeah, that's a big blessing.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, let's get into it, because I had an

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Speaker 2: opportunity to read her wars, and I'm not sure what

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Speaker 2: I expect. I guess whenever people of your position you

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Speaker 2: haven't served what fourteen years, fourteen years as executive director

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Speaker 2: of the NFL Players Association, I guess you always expect

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Speaker 2: the transparency to have his limits.

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Speaker 1: Yep, right, Yeah, can't say that's the case of your book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because I'm in the first ten pages, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is this is where we are right now, where

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Speaker 2: you are being incredibly transparent and very honest about the

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Speaker 2: NFL power dynamics, about NFL owners, particularly Jerry Jones and

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Speaker 2: Robert Kraft, about Roger Goodell.

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Speaker 1: You really laid bare your experiences.

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Speaker 2: So why did you want to be this transparent, especially

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Speaker 2: about this league?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? I think I think it was important for me

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Speaker 5: to write a book that wasn't a football book. And

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Speaker 5: and you know, in some respects better than others that

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Speaker 5: the sports industry, on one hand, is fantastic because we

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Speaker 5: get to spend time, you know, facilitating or watching or

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Speaker 5: supporting great athletes doing things that we wish we could do.

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Speaker 5: You know the fact that it brings, you know, it

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Speaker 5: does bring America together, but the reality is for good,

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Speaker 5: and I honestly say, and for bad. Sport is the

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Speaker 5: cultural center of America. And I'm a big believer in sport,

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Speaker 5: but I think that it can only be a meaningful

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Speaker 5: it can only have a meaningful cultural relevance if we're

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Speaker 5: true about it. And while I love football, I happen

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Speaker 5: to love the players better. But I felt it was

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Speaker 5: important to tell a story that was kind of based

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Speaker 5: in truth. And it doesn't mean that we are indicting

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Speaker 5: sport or indicting the NFL, but this the the plantation

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Speaker 5: mentality is a real one. And I decided, you know,

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Speaker 5: instead of just saying that, well, how about we just

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Speaker 5: bring receipts. And the fact that race and class and

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Speaker 5: gender permeates every part of American society, it does the

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Speaker 5: same thing in sport. And so I think, hopefully, you know,

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Speaker 5: if people want to get something good from turf wars,

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Speaker 5: looking at sport as a microcosm of America is I

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Speaker 5: think a healthy thing for us to do. And this

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Speaker 5: idea that you know you were talking earlier about, you know,

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Speaker 5: the law and our forefathers. Look, I think that there

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Speaker 5: are some great things that our forefathers did, coming up

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Speaker 5: with the structure of the constitution, ignoring the fact that

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Speaker 5: many of them were slave holding individuals who wanted to

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Speaker 5: create a government that protected them. That's just the truth.

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Speaker 5: So I don't think we have to be binary. You know,

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Speaker 5: football is good, football is bad. The owners are good

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Speaker 5: or the owners are bad. Most of them are bad.

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Speaker 5: But I do think that we have to have an

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Speaker 5: obligation to look at this truthfully and then understand where

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Speaker 5: everybody fits in it. You know, where do the players fit,

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Speaker 5: where does the press fit? And where does a union fit?

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Speaker 2: So I was struck by so many things about the

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Speaker 2: way you wrote about the dynamics. Now, obviously, as somebody

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Speaker 2: who grew up, you know, in the South as you did,

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Speaker 2: and with your parents and the legacy of your family

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Speaker 2: having been through what they had gone through, clearly you

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Speaker 2: understood race and racism. But it seemed like during your

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Speaker 2: time and dealing with these group of billionaires who don't

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Speaker 2: want to be told what to do, who are you know,

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Speaker 2: majority white, right, that that probably, at least what I

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Speaker 2: could pick up from your book, that that gave you

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Speaker 2: a different sensibility about race.

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Speaker 5: What was that you know, when I think the sensibility

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Speaker 5: that the.

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Speaker 1: Change was you.

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Speaker 5: Understand that that is just a reality of America, and

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Speaker 5: it is you know, it is a given. And I

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Speaker 5: think people like us are reminded that it's a given

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Speaker 5: every day when you come out of law school like

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Speaker 5: I did, and you you know, you have a job

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Speaker 5: at the US Attorneys Office and it's fantastic, and then

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Speaker 5: you move into private practice and it's fantastic, and at

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Speaker 5: least in those environments, your your relationship does change a

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Speaker 5: little bit because you know, I mean I had some

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Speaker 5: tough judges, but I never appeared in front of a

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Speaker 5: judge where I thought that they woke up in the

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Speaker 5: morning about race and whether they were superior or inferior,

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Speaker 5: and then went to bed thinking about race in class.

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Speaker 5: I frankly, you know, the clients that I represented in

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Speaker 5: private practice, you know, I mean, it wasn't like we

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Speaker 5: were having a ton of private conversations with each other.

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Speaker 5: But what I find found in business was that at

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Speaker 5: least in the courtroom and and and and most of

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Speaker 5: the companies that I represented, there was a certain level

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Speaker 5: of Okay, whatever we want to deal with, we're just

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Speaker 5: gonna we're just gonna deal with it like a business.

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Speaker 5: And I thought that coming into the National Football League,

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Speaker 5: especially the way that I did, I thought, Okay, well

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Speaker 5: that will it'll be just like that. And it's not.

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Speaker 5: It's it's the only place that I know of that,

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Speaker 5: for the most part, doesn't run like a business. And

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Speaker 5: the first two years was was somewhat of a like

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Speaker 5: a like a literally a bucket of cold water being

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Speaker 5: splashed in your face, thinking Okay, this is an incredibly

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Speaker 5: successful business. I mean, it's it's wildly successful, and I

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Speaker 5: would argue, for a certain extent it's successful in spite

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Speaker 5: of itself. But you're talking about a business that adds,

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Speaker 5: for the most part, a billion dollars of revenue every

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Speaker 5: year regardless of anything. I mean, the only thing that

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Speaker 5: even produced a hiccup was a worldwide pandemic. But wars, recessions, elections,

389
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 5: nothing stops football. And when I came in, I thought, well, okay,

390
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Speaker 5: then that must mean an incredibly group of principal people

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Speaker 5: running it purely on business terms, devoid of emotion, devoid

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Speaker 5: of personal thought, or it's not that. And the last

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Speaker 5: thing I would say, Jamil is there's only been three

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Speaker 5: executives well, for well, anyway, there's only been three to that.

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Speaker 5: When I took over, there had only been three and

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Speaker 5: and Ed Garvey what was still alive Gen Upshaw? Unfortunately

397
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Speaker 5: it had passed away. I never knew Gene. I brought

398
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Speaker 5: ed back. The reason why I wanted to write Turf

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Speaker 5: Wars is almost no one negotiates with thirty one billionaires.

400
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Speaker 5: I mean no one. And and I think you know,

401
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Speaker 5: the more that it became clear to me that football

402
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Speaker 5: was literally a microcosm of America. And then near the

403
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Speaker 5: end of the book, it's almost if America is becoming

404
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 5: a microcosm of the NFL. It just became the story

405
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Speaker 5: that I thought I had to tell, frankly, in the

406
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Speaker 5: same way that Marvin Miller told his story, in the

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Speaker 5: same way that Malcolm X told his story. I think,

408
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Speaker 5: I think if we take these lessons to the grave,

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Speaker 5: we do a disservice.

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Speaker 2: So when you were getting acclimated to being in this

411
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Speaker 2: very powerful position as executive director, it seemed like you

412
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Speaker 2: dealt with a lot of microaggressions, micro aggressions from the owners.

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Speaker 2: By that one particular part, we talk about how the

414
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Speaker 2: former Panthers owner Jerry Richardson called you uppity.

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Speaker 5: Which was like, what, Well, first of all, that was

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Speaker 5: exactly my take. I was like, man, I mean, whoa,

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Speaker 5: this is like a long way from Sanford and Son.

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Speaker 5: I mean, like, what are we doing? Yeah, but you know, again,

419
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Speaker 5: this is a this is a meeting where you know,

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Speaker 5: ten owners are on one side of the table. I'm

421
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Speaker 5: I'm there with ten players on the other side of

422
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Speaker 5: the table, including Bayton Manning, which is hilarious for its

423
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Speaker 5: own sits, but you know, these are all grown people,

424
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Speaker 5: and the meeting goes so sideways, and then on the

425
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Speaker 5: way out, you know, he turns to me and he says, well,

426
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Speaker 5: there's no reason for you to be uppitty. I'm like, well,

427
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 5: first of all, what I mean? You know, I mean

428
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Speaker 5: I heard my parents talk about the word uppity, but

429
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Speaker 5: you know it's I don't know, that's got to be

430
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Speaker 5: a little at least fifty years who said that. I mean.

431
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Speaker 5: I was like, well, boss, you know I couldn't. And

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Speaker 5: you know, well, two things happened from that meeting that

433
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Speaker 5: I thought were absolutely hilarious. That was the first one.

434
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Speaker 5: The second one was Jerry Richardson and Peyton man And

435
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Speaker 5: get into a conversation where literally Jerry Richardson is so

436
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 5: condescent and so mean to Peyton, and Peyton just literally

437
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 5: just like just responds just a nice guy. I mean,

438
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 5: Jerry Richardson was asking him, you know, does he understand

439
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 5: a profit? And last statement, does he understand what a

440
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 5: balance sheet is? I mean, it was the most condescending conversation.

441
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: Was this a refreshment memory? Was this a CBA?

442
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 5: CBA? I mean, and just like to bring your whole

443
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 5: audience in. I mean, it ended up on the cutting

444
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 5: room floor the context of the meeting. But Roger and

445
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 5: I had gotten together and and we kind of decided, Okay,

446
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 5: we've these meetings have not been great, but it's important

447
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 5: to kind of show that we're trying to get something done.

448
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 5: So we decide to have a meeting during the week

449
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 5: of Super Bowl. We both know that nothing dramatic is

450
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 5: going to come out of the meeting, but the whole

451
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 5: idea is let's just bring our sides together. But sure,

452
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 5: we're trying to get something done. Let's try to build

453
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 5: some momentum. Fine, five minutes into a meeting that wasn't

454
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 5: supposed to matter, it goes completely off the rails because

455
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 5: Jerry Richardson decides to go on this screed about you know,

456
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 5: players being poorly, poorly managed, that they don't have an

457
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 5: ability to manage their money. If they had the ability

458
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 5: to manage their money like him, they would own teams.

459
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 5: So now the meeting turns into what really should have

460
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 5: been nothing. Okay, you've now turned me into a wild man.

461
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 5: So I respond to that, and the whole meeting goes

462
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 5: absolutely crazy. But again the thing, forget the fact that

463
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 5: he called me up at the players lost their minds

464
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 5: on our side of the table, that they were that

465
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 5: he was rude to Peyton Manning. I have never seen

466
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 5: my group of guys so angry in my life. This

467
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 5: is crazy. I'm like, well, I mean they called me

468
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 5: a name.

469
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 6: I'm yeah, disrespected him, You disrespected Peyton Like all right, hey,

470
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 6: let's let's everybody just take a deep breath.

471
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 5: And that was the end of the meeting and everybody

472
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 5: walked out. But that was just a pure micro aggression.

473
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 5: And and I guess going to you know, answering your

474
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 5: first question about you know this, You walk into this

475
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 5: world and you expect it to be at least professional.

476
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 5: The fact that someone would decide to drop that, you know,

477
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 5: to me on the way out of the meeting. It's

478
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 5: just one of those it's not even tactically smart. So,

479
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 5: you know, the their willingness to engage in this, you know,

480
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 5: was sort of the first window into not only who

481
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 5: they are, but the way in which they envisioned this

482
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 5: as their kingdom and everybody should be thankful just to

483
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 5: be a part of it.

484
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 2: Well, that's was going to ask you, like, how soon

485
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 2: Obviously things often get contentious when we're talking about labor

486
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 2: unrest and the possibility of.

487
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 1: Labor strife, But before.

488
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: That, how soon did you realize exactly how owners view players?

489
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 5: And you know, I would say probably it took. It

490
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 5: took about a year before they really became explicit about

491
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 5: the way in which they thought of players as property.

492
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 5: And you know, I remember being stuck on a stuck

493
00:28:54,400 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 5: on a golf cart with with Mike Brown, who even yesterday.

494
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: That yeah, the owner of the Bengals, owner of the.

495
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 5: Bengals, yesterday during a press conference, you know where he's

496
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 5: in a contract, you know, fight with with one of

497
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 5: his first second round draft picks, you know, says well,

498
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 5: I'm not going to pay for a guy to sit

499
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 5: in jail.

500
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: I thought it was was it just me? But I

501
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: was like, why did he immediately go to jail?

502
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 5: Why did you go straight to jail? I mean, he's

503
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 5: a young man out of college who isn't in jail.

504
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 5: I mean, as we would say, I mean, you went

505
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 5: straight to eleven, you know. And but but that's the

506
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 5: that's the mentality. And whether it was sitting at a

507
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 5: golf cart with with Mike Brown or meeting Al Davis,

508
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 5: you they never they never missed the opportunity. I would say,

509
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 5: after the first year or so, to remind me that

510
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 5: the way that they thought about this was, no, this

511
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 5: is this ours and this whole labor thing, and you're

512
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 5: going to come in as kind of a strident union leader.

513
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 5: You just need to remember that you're playing in our sandbox. So,

514
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 5: you know, almost after a year it was clear to

515
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 5: me that they never wanted to think about this as

516
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 5: a partnership. I mean, they'll say whatever they want to

517
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 5: say publicly, but privately and even in meetings it would

518
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 5: be it would be a stretch to say that we sit.

519
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 5: We would sit in meetings and they would be sort

520
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 5: of conscientious negotiations. You know. It was just a well

521
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 5: we have this and we're going to do this until

522
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 5: someone stops us. And literally that was the mentality that

523
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 5: you know, you could now look at to what's going

524
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 5: on in the country. It's well, you know, I mean,

525
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 5: we know the constitution says this, or we know the

526
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 5: law says this, but we're just going to do this

527
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 5: until someone stops us. And it's a it's a pure

528
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 5: power play. And it's almost an embracing or or glorification

529
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 5: that might mix, right, and and so you know, and

530
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 5: and I'll take this to my grave. That was the

531
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 5: best thing for our players to see because even coming

532
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 5: in when I was trying to, you know, teach our

533
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 5: guys about sort of the history of labor and management,

534
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 5: not only in sports but in the country. The labor

535
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 5: management dynamic is always one that's contentious. It has to

536
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 5: be contentious. But you know, players want to believe that, well,

537
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 5: they would never really do anything bad to us because

538
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 5: we're we're the players. It's not that they would never

539
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 5: do anything bad to you. They just know you're funcible.

540
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 5: And the sort of the best thing that ever happened

541
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 5: was this sort of consistent, disrespectful way in which they

542
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 5: would approach the players, their unwillingness to even engage or

543
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 5: in the beginning with sort of fair bargaining. You know,

544
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 5: it taught the players something that I couldn't teach them,

545
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 5: and I think to a certain extent, it's something that

546
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 5: every player in every sport should understand.

547
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: One of the things you definitely talk about in your

548
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: book is about how it was your practice you went

549
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 2: to every locker room. Yeah, in the NFL, as you said,

550
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 2: trying to explain to the players, Hey, here's what they

551
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: think about you. Yep, this is what you're fighting for,

552
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: just kind of reminding them about things that are important.

553
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: But the part that.

554
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: Was eye opening for me, and it seemed to be

555
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: for you as well, and I'd love for you to

556
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: tell me more about it, is that there seemed to

557
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 2: be a level of naivet that existed among the players.

558
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: Like if the owners have a plantation mentality, Yeah, the

559
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: player's mentality is they don't know that's the mentality that

560
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 2: you have.

561
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 5: It's true. And I you know, I I love the players.

562
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 5: You know, I probably spend more time defending them than

563
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 5: I probably should. I think it's I think it's tough

564
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 5: for them because for many of our guys, this is

565
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 5: their first job, and I learned about labor and management

566
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 5: from Jerry Subshop. Right. You know you have a bad day,

567
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 5: you have a bed day school, you know you might

568
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 5: have a flat tire. Man, the dude at the office

569
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 5: at the restaurant does not care. Come in, do your hours,

570
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 5: cook the pizzas, don't burn the food, and you understand that.

571
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 5: I think sometimes players think that this is just all

572
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 5: a game, and that you know, they're lucky to be

573
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 5: able to play in college. They're thrilled to be able

574
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 5: to play in college and then are good enough to

575
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 5: now play in the pros. And I think that comes

576
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 5: with a certain number of assumptions that few people challenge.

577
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 5: And their assumption is, well, we're we're the players, so

578
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 5: they're going to do everything to make us happy and

579
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 5: keep us happy and pay us. No, no, there's I mean,

580
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 5: in the NFL, you're the greatest players in the world.

581
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 5: But man, there's a ton of people just to replace you,

582
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 5: and they're happy to replace you. And you know, one

583
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 5: of the reasons I would tell the story about Bill Radovich,

584
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 5: the football player in the nineteen forties who goes off

585
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 5: to service country in World War Two. He comes back

586
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 5: in nineteen forty five, after being All Pro, he plays

587
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 5: one year more with the Detroit Lions. He finds out

588
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 5: that his father is dying of cancer in California, and

589
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 5: he says to the Detroit Lions owner, I want to

590
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 5: move to a team in California to be closer to

591
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 5: my dad. Detroit Lions owner tells this all pro, if

592
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 5: you don't sign again with the Lions, you'll never play

593
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 5: for another NFL team. This guy was an All Pro

594
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 5: four years starter who was a war hero. No, they

595
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 5: just want control, and there is a certain level of

596
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 5: naivete that I think every player walks into until someone

597
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 5: dispels him. And I felt that was my job, because

598
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 5: you can't have a strong union if you think that

599
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 5: the owners or everything you have from a pension to

600
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 5: four one K to healthcare to work rules, if you

601
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 5: think all of those are fantastic, magical gifts that the

602
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 5: owners just give to you, No, they will not only

603
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 5: take them all away, but you forget that people went

604
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 5: on strike for those things, and people lost their jobs

605
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 5: fighting for those things, and you have now this obligation

606
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 5: to play at forward. So no, I never kind of

607
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 5: shot away from being confrontational with my own guys, because

608
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 5: I'm going to tell you the truth and maybe your

609
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 5: agent won't or maybe your coach won't, but I'm neither

610
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 5: one of those cats.

611
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: So since we're on the topic of collusion, here we go.

612
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 2: You know, I want to ask you you know exactly

613
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: what I out, but you get the reprieve. I have

614
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: to take a quick break and then we will come

615
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: back on the other side and discuss the latest collusion

616
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: issues that have come up in the NFLPA more with

617
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: d Smith when we return.

618
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: All right, as I said, on the other side of

619
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: the break.

620
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 5: Is trying to get myself together.

621
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: Yes, I will try to answer or ask these questions

622
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: as carefully as I can, because I realized that you

623
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: were somebody who was on oath right for this. I was, yes,

624
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: you did, and I also filed the collusion and you

625
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: filed the collusion case.

626
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 5: So there's all sorts of privileges.

627
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 2: Yes, So to bring everybody up to speed, you filed

628
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: a collusion case.

629
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: When did you file this case? Exactly?

630
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 5: It was twenty we were twenty three twenty.

631
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: Yes, it was one of those.

632
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: So this is all related to Deshaun Watson's contract, correct,

633
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: which fully guaranteed two and thirty thirty two million dollars

634
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: given to him by the Browns. We know the kind

635
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: of issues and allegations against Deshaun Watson. Most people consider

636
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 2: that to be arguably the worst contract in NFL history.

637
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 2: Not for Deshaun Watson, certainly, I agree, not for the

638
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: NFLPA either.

639
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: So understand that.

640
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 5: God bust the owner.

641
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: Yes, so he gets that contract, and then it seems

642
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: like you begin to notice some patterns, yes, after Deshaun

643
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: Watson was given that contract. So take me through that

644
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: part about what is it that made you file a

645
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 2: collusion case against the NFL?

646
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 5: Can you say, yeah, I'm not sure. I can't really,

647
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 5: I can say this, well, we can't talk about what

648
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,959
Speaker 5: went into the legal thought to file the case, because

649
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 5: you know I can. We can talk about what was public.

650
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 5: You know. I definitely remember when Steve Bushatti came out

651
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 5: after the Deshaun Watson contract and I'm going to paraphrase,

652
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 5: but you know, words to the effect of, you know,

653
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 5: I think a fully guaranteed contract, you know, was wasted

654
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 5: on a guy like that. And look, I can't talk

655
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 5: about sort of the legal machinations that led to it,

656
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 5: but that statement alone as a standalone statement. I mean

657
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:45,439
Speaker 5: three things pop out, you know immediately. First, why would

658
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 5: any other owners say anything about another owner's decision to

659
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 5: hire a person. I mean, I I've been in this

660
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 5: business for a long time. I don't remember another owner

661
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 5: commenting on another owner's contract. I mean, it just doesn't happen.

662
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 5: So I have a hard time believing that it was

663
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 5: a mistake. You know. Number two, You know, I have

664
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 5: a hard time. You know, when he says, you know,

665
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 5: a guaranteed, fully guaranteed contract going for a person like that. Okay,

666
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 5: my next question is going to be when you say

667
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,439
Speaker 5: like that, what do we I mean, DeShawn didn't play

668
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 5: for a year, but the year before he played it

669
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 5: was lights out, So I mean, this was a high

670
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 5: performing player while he was in Houston. So what part

671
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 5: of like that are we are we talking about? Because

672
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 5: I thought that these contracts were based on how well

673
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 5: you perform on the field. And by the way, if

674
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 5: he violated some sort of of league policy or had

675
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 5: engaged in some sort of crime or something else, none

676
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 5: of those were the case for Deshaun Watson at that point.

677
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 5: He didn't get punished by the league until after Now,

678
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 5: the third thing is well, if you don't think that

679
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 5: a fully guaranteed contract is worthy of a guy like that,

680
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 5: then who should deserve one? Maybe it's Oh, I don't

681
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 5: know your quarterback, so you know, I can remember being

682
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 5: struck by that for those three reasons, and you know,

683
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 5: jumping forward, Yes, I authorized the filing of of the

684
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 5: collusion case and then I left. I did testify at it,

685
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 5: but and then I left, uh, before the before the decision.

686
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 2: So when you filed the collusion case, it wasn't just

687
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 2: about Lamar Jackson.

688
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 5: Correct, we filed Yeah, we filed on behalf of quarterbacks.

689
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 2: It was behalf of quarterbacks. Was it specifically? It was Kler, Murray,

690
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: Caller Murray and Lamar Jackson. I was just kind of

691
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 2: I thought Russell Wilson was also in it. Yes, it was, Yes,

692
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 2: so these are the quarterbacks because you're looking at.

693
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, the way the grievance procedure works is you are

694
00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 5: allowed to file a grievance for for almost anything, and

695
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 5: and you know you're focusing on, you know, what you

696
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 5: have potentially evidence of. So it was for the most

697
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 5: part pretty much a rifle shot towards quarterbacks. Guaranteed contracts.

698
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 5: And remember there's one more step before DeShawn. You know,

699
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 5: Kirk Cousins gets franchised twice, you know, and thanks to

700
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 5: the collective bargaining agreement. You know, the first time around

701
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 5: he gets the average of the top five, and then

702
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 5: the second time he gets the average of the top three,

703
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 5: and then rightfully so when he enters into the free

704
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 5: agent market, he says, why should I take a contract

705
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 5: as a free agent that structured worse than the deal

706
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 5: that I had when I was being franchised. So I

707
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 5: honestly was surprised that we didn't see more guaranteed contracts

708
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 5: after the Cousins contract. Then you fast forward to the

709
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 5: Watson contract. Okay, high performer didn't play for an entire

710
00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 5: year gets a fully guaranteed contract. Well okay, I mean

711
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 5: people might debate whether or not that's a good one

712
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 5: or a bad one, but that's what the market bore.

713
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 5: And so now you're looking at a marketplace where you've

714
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 5: got three quarterbacks, two of which arguably are are are

715
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 5: are on their way to be Hall of famers, you know,

716
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 5: probably first ballot Hall of famers, and there's questions about

717
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 5: what kind of contract they're going to get. So, you know,

718
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 5: when a question arises like that. And by the way,

719
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 5: if you open up the CBA, the largest section in

720
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 5: the CBA, I would argue is about collusion. So it

721
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 5: goes to the heart of our relationship. So I never

722
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 5: shot away from filing grievances before because that's I think,

723
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 5: what a union is supposed to do. And then everything

724
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 5: plays out the way everything plays out.

725
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 2: So for those who don't recause, Really, I think what

726
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 2: was an.

727
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 1: Eyebrow raising moment for a lot of people was Lamar Jackson.

728
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 2: Mar Jackson poised to supposedly have this new deal with

729
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: the Ravens. They give him an offer that other teams

730
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 2: can match, and right, no one inquires about Lamar Jackson,

731
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 2: which is bizarre. It's like, wait a minute, he's in

732
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: his mid twenties, he is an MVP. You would think

733
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 2: somebody like that, with his level of performance and what

734
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 2: he'd already accomplished, would be resetting the quarterback market.

735
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 5: And none or at least indulging seven thousand telephone calls.

736
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 2: Right, and suddenly you see in the media that there

737
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 2: are reports that Falcons aren't interested like people who really

738
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: need quarterbacks, I'm not interested in Lamar Jackson.

739
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 5: Once again and again, can't talk about the grievance, but

740
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 5: that's all public. Yes, I mean the fact that you

741
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 5: had a number of people coming out. First of all,

742
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 5: nobody contacts him, then a number of people decide to

743
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 5: go public by saying they don't want them to say

744
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 5: they don't want.

745
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: Was very strange.

746
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 5: Again, you know it's and to me it is a

747
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 5: level of hubris that I found it stunning. I mean,

748
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 5: you know, you're you're sitting there with with a lot

749
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 5: of great athletes who are quarterbacks, right, I mean, and

750
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 5: they're they're good at they're great athletes. How many of

751
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 5: them are are MVPs and he has a non restrictive

752
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 5: tag on him? Where Okay, I mean the the they

753
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 5: could have come back and matched it or paid more.

754
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 5: But the fact that no one reaches out to a

755
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 5: transformational athlete. I've never seen that before. And as you said,

756
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 5: then it's followed by yeah, I'm not really interested. Well

757
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 5: who Once again, I have never really seen a moment

758
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 5: where all their owners and other teams were commenting on

759
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 5: other players on other teams.

760
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,479
Speaker 2: So quite a bit of reporting has been done since

761
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: a little bit has an issue about this, and obviously

762
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 2: have since left the NFLPA, where we then discovered that

763
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: there is this your grievance was what sixty one pages?

764
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: Or you have a decision the decision will excuse me

765
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: with sixty one pages. And there's all sorts of very

766
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 2: juicy interesting details. The biggest one is that there appeared

767
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 2: to be speaking of collusion, some kind of collusion between

768
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 2: the NFL or there was a confidentiality not collusion. There

769
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: was a confident confidentiality agreement signed between the NFLPA and

770
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 2: the NFL to not let out what I would think

771
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 2: would be extremely valuable information, particularly if you're a union

772
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 2: and you want to show your guys like, hey, we

773
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: got a big joker.

774
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: Anybody who plays maids, we got a big joker.

775
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 2: Because we have text messages, we have evidence that there

776
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 2: are owners who were purposely trying to not fully guarantee contracts,

777
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: perfectly trying to set the market behind closed doors that

778
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,720
Speaker 2: you didn't know about. Now since then, as a result,

779
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 2: the person who replaced you, Lloyd Ile, he has resigned.

780
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: I guess number two for better Yeah, I mean the

781
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: best way to put in JC Tretter.

782
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: He is also resigned.

783
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 2: So now there's this void of leadership given everything that

784
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 2: has happened that we have seen. If you're the players

785
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,240
Speaker 2: and you're looking at this, what are you thinking about

786
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: the union? Like, why would the players even trust the

787
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 2: union after this is all unfolded?

788
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, lots of questions. I think what the players

789
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 5: as players have done in history, the thing that they

790
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,760
Speaker 5: need to wrap their hands around is this is their union.

791
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 5: There is no union separate from the players. Both. I

792
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 5: work for them, union presidents work for them. I don't

793
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 5: think it's really I think instead of looking at, you know,

794
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 5: whether or not they should trust their union, I think

795
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 5: that they need to engage in ruthless introspection about what

796
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 5: type of union they want. And and you and I

797
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 5: beforehand we're talking about, you know, the w NBA Players

798
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 5: Union and the US Women's team Union. I've worked with

799
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 5: all of them.

800
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 3: You know.

801
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 5: The one thing I can say about those two unions,

802
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 5: every one of their members is invested in their union

803
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 5: and they take the there. They take their duties with

804
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 5: respect to their collective seriously. And I don't have a

805
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 5: lot of explanations for what went on. I wasn't there.

806
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 5: I wasn't a part of the search process for for Lloyd.

807
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 5: There's one hundred and one hundred or so union members.

808
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 5: There's one voting member and three alternates for every team.

809
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 5: That one hundred or so group of people elect an

810
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 5: eleven person executive committee, and their job is to hold

811
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 5: the executive director accountable. And I think what has to

812
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 5: happen in this void is I think people need to

813
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 5: go back and understand why you form a union in

814
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 5: the first place and rise to the occasion.

815
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 2: But you even look at how Lloyd how who replaced you,

816
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 2: Lloyd Kyle Junior, How he was selected was very strange

817
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: to me.

818
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: It was a very confidential process in which.

819
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 2: It felt like he was sprung on the players and

820
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 2: that he they didn't get the benefit of figuring.

821
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: Out or finding out who this guy actually is.

822
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: And as a journalist, I have to say there was

823
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: some disconcerting things in his background. The fact that he

824
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: had been a part of this very sortid settlement involving

825
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 2: a whistleblower for his company, the fact that he is

826
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: a part of a group that is actually trying to

827
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 2: buy into the NFL, which seems immediate conflicts of interest.

828
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 2: You have an executive director that is also trying to

829
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 2: or is it also part of a group that is

830
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 2: trying to buy trying to gain access and become minority

831
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: ownership in an NFL team at the same time.

832
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: So that's why I asked you about.

833
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was very surprising considering the shape that you

834
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: left the union in.

835
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, how has all of this struck you?

836
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 5: Sadness? I mean, it's you know, I think for any person,

837
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 5: and again, you know, I'm talking to someone who we

838
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 5: have so many similar experiences. You know, you work for

839
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 5: a company for a long time, you're a part of it,

840
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,399
Speaker 5: you separate from it. There comes a time when you

841
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 5: just emotionally have to divest yourself from it. And it's

842
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 5: not it's not a hatred or or you know, you've

843
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 5: got some cross to bear. It's that chapter, was that chapter,

844
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 5: and you move on to a new chapter, and you

845
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 5: can't really kind of keep looking over your shoulder about

846
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 5: Hey man, I hope that what was going on over there.

847
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 5: You know, you just have to you have to move on.

848
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 5: And so, you know, I had fourteen almost fifteen years

849
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 5: of you know, a lot of stuff, but I was

850
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 5: always proud of what the players did. I ran for reelection.

851
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 5: The only thing I can say with respect to the

852
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 5: election you described versus I can contrast it to the

853
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:43,439
Speaker 5: elections that I had.

854
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, no, process was very different.

855
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 5: It was very different.

856
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 2: It was much more transparent. They had a close process.

857
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: For me, you knew anything, and I just didn't understand. Well,

858
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: I have some theories about it, but.

859
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, I look, I think you know, I ran for

860
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 5: well when I came in two thousand and nine, that

861
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 5: was a big election that ran for reelection. I don't

862
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,399
Speaker 5: know three times that or something like that. Look, there

863
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 5: were times when, you know, I think all of those

864
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 5: elections to a certain extent were chaotic, you know, frenetic, messy.

865
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 5: But democracy is supposed to be messy. And I you know,

866
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 5: I look back on my elections, you know, whether it

867
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 5: was the first time or any of the ones going forward,

868
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 5: and you know, I'm pretty sure that for the guys

869
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 5: who went through it, I'm sure they would say, man,

870
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 5: I never want to go through something like that. Again,

871
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 5: democracy is supposed to be messy. And I think that

872
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 5: if you ever trade confidentiality and secrecy for some sort

873
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 5: of you know, praying at the altar of efficiency, you

874
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 5: can literally end up with the right answer, but somehow

875
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 5: get the wrong result. And you know, look, I would

876
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 5: never wish REP meetings, you know that we would have

877
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 5: on anyone. They are not for the faint of heart.

878
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 5: They just aren't. I mean, you've got one hundred guys

879
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 5: in a room. Everybody has an opinion. Guys tend to

880
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 5: be very emotional. I tend to be. I mean, in

881
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 5: their defense, I can be rather dogmatic and you know,

882
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 5: strident about things, and probably a little bit overly logical.

883
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 5: But you know that that's sort of that sort of

884
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 5: grist where it's uncomfortable, and yes, people get angry and

885
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 5: sometimes people get their feelings hurt, and it's certainly not efficient,

886
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 5: it's not pretty, but we always handled our business, and

887
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 5: you know, I even look back to the twenty twenty

888
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 5: deal was highly contentious, you know, the you know, some

889
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 5: players didn't want a seventeenth game, but they wanted all

890
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 5: the things that came from it. Some guys didn't want

891
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 5: to vote on the deal. Some guys didn't like some

892
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 5: of the terms. Some guys did, you know. And at

893
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 5: the end of the day, the CBA, I think, is

894
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 5: approved by sixty seven votes, but with almost an eighty

895
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 5: percent voting rate. So I know a lot of people

896
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 5: are like, well, man, you know, sixty seven votes. I mean,

897
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 5: that's just not a good endorsement of a deal. And

898
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 5: I'm like, well, look, I don't know if we've had

899
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 5: an election in the United States with eighty percent participation.

900
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 5: It was messy, but I think it's okay for democracy

901
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 5: to be messy. The things over the last few weeks

902
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 5: have just for the most part been literally heartbreaking. You know,

903
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 5: the people that work at the union. I mean, it's

904
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 5: it's a hard job, and most of those people took

905
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 5: that job because they love it, and they decided that

906
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 5: they were going to get paid less than they could

907
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 5: anywhere else. I mean, and I think about you know,

908
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 5: Gene and the fact that during the nineties when the

909
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 5: union decertified and yet they were still filing these lawsuits

910
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 5: for free agency from nineteen seventy one to nineteen ninety three,

911
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 5: you know, Gene and seven people. That's that was the

912
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 5: entire staff at the time, they worked without pay. I think,

913
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 5: looking at this, it just seems to me that that

914
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 5: right now the board has to decide what kind of

915
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 5: union they want, and that has to start with what

916
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:42,879
Speaker 5: type of leader player leaders we want. And it's hard.

917
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 5: I mean, I look back, you know, that first executive

918
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 5: committee for me was you know, Brian Dawkins, and I

919
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 5: believe it or not, Mike Rabel and Drew Brees and

920
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 5: Kevin Mawai and Kevin Carter, and you know guys like

921
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 5: Mark Bruner and Brian Waters and Dominique Foxworth. You know,

922
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 5: when I met those guys in two thousand and I

923
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 5: guess the first one I met him was two thousand

924
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:13,760
Speaker 5: and eight, I was struck literally by how old they seemed.

925
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 5: I mean, they just seemed like grizzled old men. They were.

926
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 5: Probably the average age was twenty seven, you know. But

927
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 5: I think what made them so mature beyond their years

928
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 5: is when you wake up one morning and the guy

929
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 5: who's run the union longer than you've been alive is dead,

930
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 5: and you know that a CBA war is on the horizon.

931
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 5: I think those guys became older than their years and

932
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 5: accepted a level of responsibility that should be should be

933
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 5: a banner for what the guys have to do.

934
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 2: Now, getting back to your book for a second, it

935
00:55:58,360 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 2: I don't want to mischaracterize.

936
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, but it did.

937
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: Seem like you had a bit of a disdain for

938
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:08,280
Speaker 2: Jerry Jones.

939
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 5: I mean, well, I mean, disdain's harsh. I would say

940
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 5: that Jerry is one of the more interesting characters I've

941
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 5: ever met in my life. And I was a homicide

942
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 5: prosecutor for ten years, you know, so disdain is hard.

943
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 5: But you know, Jerry is a very tough person, I

944
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 5: mean tough. And the way that you know, I'm not

945
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 5: telling you anything you don't know, but the way that

946
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 5: he runs the Cowboys is a emperor running the cowboys.

947
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:04,839
Speaker 5: And and I think Jerry and the way that he

948
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 5: wants to run the league is no different. I mean, interestingly,

949
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 5: he and I almost never had a crossword, you know,

950
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 5: except for a couple of times. But but unlike I mean,

951
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 5: he never called me up any but but wow, that's

952
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 5: just you know, I didn't think I would work in

953
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 5: up at he twice in the in this But but

954
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 5: Jerry's just a very tough guy and and he almost

955
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 5: literally wills things into existence, and and so I'm always

956
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 5: kind of fascinated by people like that because I'm a

957
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 5: little bit like that. But also I just am not

958
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 5: gonna let somebody run over our guys.

959
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: Well, I was, in particular, it was you wrote this,

960
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 2: and I was thinking about this in light about in

961
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 2: light of his recent comments about Michael Parsons.

962
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 5: A lot of this looks appreciate now.

963
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: I was like, did you know, so he's.

964
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 5: In a battle with Michael now over his contracts.

965
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 2: Basically he takes a shot at Michaeh and then Dak

966
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 2: Prescott just catches a stranger as where he's just like,

967
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 2: all right, I mean, listen, you might get hurt of it.

968
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: I mean, he just it's just things you don't say.

969
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 5: It's things you don't say when you are.

970
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 2: In the process of a contract negotiation with your best

971
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 2: defensive player. And I'm reminded of what you wrote about

972
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 2: Jerry interf Wars, which I'm going to read back here now,

973
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 2: where you said, uh, and that when it comes to

974
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 2: Jerry himself, black people can play for him, drive him

975
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 2: around in his luxury bus, and clean the stadium and

976
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 2: team facility, but lead with him, shape the league with him,

977
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 2: attend owners meetings and affect policy, and stand up to

978
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 2: systematic failures with him.

979
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: Those are the lines he will not cross.

980
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 2: And that is a very interesting characterization of him because

981
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 2: he's obviously one of the most successful owners in sports history.

982
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any doubt about that.

983
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 2: When you think about what the the Cowboys are.

984
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 5: Worth well or and how he built it.

985
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 2: And how, yes, how he built it for one hundred

986
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 2: and forty million. I mean they need just well in

987
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 2: one of the greatest investments efforts.

988
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 5: Of all time. And the way he operates it, right,

989
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 5: I mean, like I talk a little bit about going

990
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 5: to that boiler room, you know, the way that he

991
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 5: thinks about putting butts in the seats and building a

992
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 5: stadium that you know, everybody remember when that thing went online.

993
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 5: Everybody's laughing about the size of his jumbo trunk. Now

994
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 5: everybody wants one.

995
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 1: It's the standard.

996
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 5: Now it's the standard. And even his comments about, hey,

997
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 5: look we have owners in the National Football League who

998
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 5: aren't driving revenue and that's not good, you know. But

999
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 5: but I guess you know, to me, it's it's one

1000
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 5: thing to rightly point out the things that he has

1001
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 5: done on the business side that that are remarkable. But

1002
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 5: if you ignore the things that at least were obvious

1003
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 5: to me, I don't think you get a true picture

1004
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 5: of who they are.

1005
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 2: Oh and in fairness, in one of the other things

1006
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 2: you wrote, which I thought was a very accurate description,

1007
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 2: you you said that there's a limit to his views

1008
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 2: on equality.

1009
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 5: Yeah there, look, there there are And look, I think

1010
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 5: that that piece of reporting that first came out with

1011
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 5: the Washington Post about you know, he's standing on the

1012
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 5: steps when when they're integrating his high school. You know,

1013
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 5: Jerry's comments about that weren't what you would have expected.

1014
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: They weren't great, right, they weren't great.

1015
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 5: So, I mean there's a certain level of I mean,

1016
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 5: one other thing you got to remind me about Jerry,

1017
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,959
Speaker 5: and I know it's gonna sound incongruent, but he also

1018
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 5: makes me laugh. I mean, he's he's hysterical. I mean,

1019
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 5: I don't know whether he intends to be hysterical, but

1020
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 5: he's hysterical. But you know, when faced with those kinds,

1021
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 5: you know, when faced with the facts of where he

1022
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 5: was on that day and you're given this opportunity to

1023
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 5: kind of explain why were you there and what you

1024
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 5: were thinking, it's striking to me that he didn't apologize, right,

1025
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 5: I mean, it didn't even try to kind of put

1026
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 5: a spin on it of well, no, they weren't great.

1027
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 5: And I find it interesting that a person can make

1028
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 5: the conscious decision of I don't have to I don't

1029
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 5: have to say anything that makes you feel better, and

1030
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 5: that's the that's the way he is, and a certain extent,

1031
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 5: that's sort of the way a lot of the owners are.

1032
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 5: This is a closed country club where even if you

1033
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 5: have enough money, you can't you're not allowed entry. And

1034
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 5: I think it has created a my only way of

1035
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 5: describing it, was a fiefdom where they really, at least

1036
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 5: on except for a couple occasions, they've been the need

1037
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 5: to know one.

1038
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 2: That being said, and seeing how the financial dynamics are,

1039
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: seeing how the social dynamics are among the owners. Will

1040
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 2: we ever see a majority black owner in the NFL.

1041
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 5: I think the answer is yes. But but I don't

1042
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 5: think that is going to be a bell weather for change.

1043
01:02:54,920 --> 01:03:00,840
Speaker 5: I really don't. I mean, I'm trying to avoid like

1044
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 5: causing more viral moments.

1045
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 2: But.

1046
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 5: I think this idea that somehow we are going to

1047
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 5: get a majority black owner and somehow we're going to

1048
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 5: fall into a post racial world like we thought many

1049
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 5: people thought we were after you know, after the after

1050
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 5: the president's second term, we didn't achieve a post racial world,

1051
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 5: even though we had a black president for eight years.

1052
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 5: I don't think anybody should hold their breath that we're

1053
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 5: going to achieve, you know, a racial harmonious NFL ecosystem

1054
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 5: if we have five black owners, I think I think

1055
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 5: it has certainly has something to do with the color

1056
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 5: and the character of the person who takes that job.

1057
01:03:54,880 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 5: But remember, this is still an ecosystem that has to

1058
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 5: admit to itself that its own rules doesn't work. I mean,

1059
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 5: I don't you and I have been in this business forever.

1060
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 5: What rule does the NFL have that doesn't work? I mean,

1061
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 5: there's a rule about your socks, there's a rule about

1062
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 5: your jersey. Some players have rules about their weight, there's

1063
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 5: you know, all of the helmets are the same, everything's

1064
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 5: the same. I mean, the rule book is is literally

1065
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 5: one of the largest documents on the planet, and yet

1066
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 5: they created their own rule that hasn't achieved its own goal.

1067
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 5: And you know, I wrote an article for Yale. My

1068
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 5: conclusion is, my only conclusion has to be is that's intentional.

1069
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 5: You wanted to call it a rule because now it

1070
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 5: sounds like something that's going to be enforced, but you

1071
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 5: have zero intention of actually following. So I think we

1072
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 5: I think the only thing that could lead to some

1073
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 5: sort of systemic change in the National Football League is

1074
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 5: what's brought about systemic change in the country. I mean,

1075
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 5: we it laws and legislation are not perfect, but you know,

1076
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 5: I thought Lyndon Johnson gave the best speech of presidents

1077
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 5: ever given about about passing the Civil Rights Act. We

1078
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 5: have rules that made it easier, or let me flip

1079
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 5: it around. We have rules now that it made it

1080
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 5: harder to discriminate against people of color and women and

1081
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 5: sexual choice. And what are we seeing now. We're seeing

1082
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 5: we're seeing a rollback of the accountability structures. Well, the

1083
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 5: people who want to roll those things back, I mean,

1084
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 5: I'm sure they think a certain way, but they understand

1085
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 5: that that was that was the catalyst for change. So,

1086
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 5: I mean, the National Football League exists. These teams exist

1087
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 5: in jurisdictions that have statutes that criminalize discrimination. I don't

1088
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 5: know of one state attorney general in any state where

1089
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 5: there is an NFL team who has ever opened an

1090
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 5: inquiry about whether there are discriminatory practices with respect to

1091
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 5: coaching hires. I mean, I don't know of a better

1092
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 5: prima facia case for discrimination by the NFL then their

1093
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 5: coaches situation. And yet for some reason, no one has

1094
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 5: ever opened up a civil investigation. Nobody has opened up

1095
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 5: a criminal investigation, and the law is there, but until

1096
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 5: someone believes that they're actually going to be accountable to

1097
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 5: something bigger than themselves. You know, It's one of the

1098
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 5: lines I wrote in the book, if you could get

1099
01:06:56,240 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 5: away with anything, what would you do?

1100
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 2: You think we will ever see fully guarantee contracts in

1101
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 2: the NFL.

1102
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 5: I think we well, I think that I think I do,

1103
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 5: and I think I think it will be one of

1104
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:25,600
Speaker 5: the interesting collateral impacts of n I L. And I

1105
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 5: think that what's happening now with players coming into the

1106
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 5: National Football League. You know, the NIL system has has

1107
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 5: I think rightfully allowed players to certainly use their name,

1108
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 5: image and likeness. But but you know, the I guess

1109
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 5: the sub part of it is it's made every player

1110
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:50,960
Speaker 5: aware of their value and it just simply means that

1111
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 5: if you're the starting quarterback of blah blah blah school,

1112
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 5: that's a power for school man. It means there's a

1113
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 5: certain amount of money that is going to come your way.

1114
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 5: I think that mentality is what's going to change in

1115
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:08,360
Speaker 5: the National Football League. That mentality that Okay, now I'm

1116
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 5: you know, Joe Burrow or I'm or I'm Josh Allen

1117
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 5: or any one of these folks. At some point, I

1118
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 5: think those players have to say, well, wait, wait a minute,

1119
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 5: why why am I taking all the risk? I mean

1120
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 5: when you look at first round you know, first round

1121
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 5: draft picks, I mean, those contracts are almost virtually one

1122
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 5: arm percent guaranteed if I were them. Okay, you took

1123
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 5: a guy like Kirk Cousins, and Kurt's a fantastic quarterback.

1124
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 5: You know, may not be a first ballot Hall of Famer,

1125
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 5: but that guy got too fully fully guaranteed contracts here.

1126
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: Say about my favorite Michigan State quarterback.

1127
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 5: And then he leveraged that into a fully guaranteed contract

1128
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:57,760
Speaker 5: as a free agent. I think that it's the mentality

1129
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:01,639
Speaker 5: that's going to bring that to to to fruition because

1130
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 5: you know, again, no CBA guarantees contracts. I mean, you know,

1131
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 5: Larry Bird literally changed the ecosystem on guaranteed contracts and

1132
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 5: they became custom. I think the mentality of players coming

1133
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 5: into the National Football League, aided by NFL, I think

1134
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:21,639
Speaker 5: it's going to change that mentality, and I think you're

1135
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 5: gonna have players who are going to say I'm not coming.

1136
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:27,720
Speaker 5: I mean.

1137
01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: Because they can make millions. Well, you know, saying that.

1138
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 5: Hey, if you're a free agent, okay, I'm not gonna

1139
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 5: play right, I mean.

1140
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 1: You mean people already in the league.

1141
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 5: Not correct, not the okay, correct, correct, because that's the leverage.

1142
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 2: Right, It's just like, I'm not going to even deal

1143
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:49,240
Speaker 2: with you if you're not fully guaranteed.

1144
01:09:49,280 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 1: If they have the leverage of performance, and.

1145
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 5: That's and that was the level. I mean, you think

1146
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 5: about the leverage of Kirk Cousins, right, and and you know,

1147
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 5: talk about his performance as a quarterback either way you want,

1148
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 5: but his performance, for whatever reason led the Washington team

1149
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 5: to pay him the average of the top five fully guaranteed,

1150
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:16,520
Speaker 5: and then the average of the top three fully guaranteed.

1151
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 5: And you can make a pretty good argument that Kirk

1152
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 5: Cousins was not the top three. That's what the market

1153
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 5: would bear. And I think he took that mentality into

1154
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 5: the free agent market and said, why wouldn't I take it?

1155
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 5: Forget about the money, how many dollars? Why would I

1156
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:36,599
Speaker 5: take a contract that structured in a worse way than

1157
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 5: when I was franchised? And by the way, you know

1158
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 5: who agreed to the franchise rules, the owners they agreed

1159
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 5: to make them fully guaranteed. So why should a player

1160
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 5: walk into a GM's office and say, hey, I want

1161
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,559
Speaker 5: a fully guaranteed contract and then allow the GM to say, well,

1162
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 5: you know we don't do that. Well, you did it

1163
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 5: with the franchise TA.

1164
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:03,640
Speaker 2: One thing I noticed, and this is something that was

1165
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 2: obviously recently in the news, is that in these and

1166
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:08,719
Speaker 2: I'm sure you noticed it too, being on the inside

1167
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 2: of this, that when there is labor tension between players

1168
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 2: and owners, the fans side with the owners, that it

1169
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 2: drives me crazy.

1170
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 1: It drives me crazy.

1171
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,479
Speaker 2: It does I'm sure drove you crazy.

1172
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 1: But we are recording this.

1173
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 2: Just a few days removed from when w NBA players

1174
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:29,920
Speaker 2: All Star weekend they came out with the shirts pay

1175
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 2: us what you owe us, and people lost their shit

1176
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 2: about it. And even though people tried to lean into

1177
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 2: the excuse of like, well, the WNBA is not making

1178
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:43,920
Speaker 2: money and this and that you and I both know.

1179
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:48,200
Speaker 2: So you see it in the books, and everybody.

1180
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 1: Does their books differently. I tried to give people to explain.

1181
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:53,960
Speaker 2: Is that most times do what they want to show

1182
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 2: their operating at a loss.

1183
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: That's what they do.

1184
01:11:57,360 --> 01:11:59,479
Speaker 5: That's what they do yes, that's what they.

1185
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 1: Do, how to convince you every time we're losing the.

1186
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 5: Well at them. And I was in it for fourteen years.

1187
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 5: I have yet to see an audited financial statement. They

1188
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 5: never produce an audited financial statement. So yeah, look, I

1189
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:16,679
Speaker 5: think that I think that what the w NBA players

1190
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 5: not only did now, but what they have done clearly

1191
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 5: makes that how do they win the narrative?

1192
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 2: Are they gonna? I guess they even bother winning the

1193
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 2: nar Okay, because you've been.

1194
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,720
Speaker 5: On it doesn't matter. I mean we you know, when

1195
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:34,759
Speaker 5: we're negotiating a deal, man, there's there's one share that's empty,

1196
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:37,080
Speaker 5: the fan. I mean, I don't want to break anybody's heart,

1197
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 5: but nobody in that room is like, hey man, what

1198
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 5: does Bubba think?

1199
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:40,960
Speaker 1: Now?

1200
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 5: Nobody, no one is spending that moment. And so I

1201
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 5: think the narrative is only important in one respect. I

1202
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 5: think it's important to make sure people understand what you're

1203
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:58,760
Speaker 5: doing and why you're doing it. But this idea that

1204
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 5: fan support is going to mean something in a negotiation room.

1205
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:05,519
Speaker 5: I mean, don't overplay that hand, right, because we all

1206
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:07,200
Speaker 5: know one thing, at least when it comes to the NFL,

1207
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 5: fans are gonna watch. They're just gonna watch. And you know,

1208
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 5: I don't get into arguments with people at bars to

1209
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 5: the extent that I used to. I used to pick

1210
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:21,880
Speaker 5: every fight because that it was funny. But I'm a lawyer.

1211
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 5: It just kind of comes. You know, somebody will say

1212
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 5: something crazy in a bar. You know, I just don't

1213
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:28,640
Speaker 5: think he's worth all that money. And you know, my

1214
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:29,639
Speaker 5: response back was.

1215
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:30,719
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter.

1216
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:33,479
Speaker 5: It doesn't matter. You play. You know, we all know

1217
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,599
Speaker 5: you can't. So okay, I mean, I might pay five

1218
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:38,240
Speaker 5: bucks to see if you can make it across the room,

1219
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:40,719
Speaker 5: but you know that's that's what the market will bear,

1220
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:44,719
Speaker 5: so it doesn't matter. I think. I think it's important

1221
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:48,519
Speaker 5: for the narrative so people understand why you're doing it

1222
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:52,680
Speaker 5: and why it's important. But you know, the proof is

1223
01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 5: always in the pudding, right and and the way that

1224
01:13:55,520 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 5: the WNBA CBA is structured it it's that structure. At

1225
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 5: least in my opinion, that structure doesn't jive with where

1226
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:10,040
Speaker 5: they are right now. It just doesn't. And I'm a

1227
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 5: big fan of revenue share deals. I mean, we talk

1228
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:15,599
Speaker 5: a lot about NFL players and basketball players and hockey

1229
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 5: players and baseball players, I look, nobody should cry a river, right,

1230
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 5: I mean, for the most part, all of those players

1231
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,599
Speaker 5: are getting somewhere close to fifty cents on every dollar

1232
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 5: they generate, which is when you think about that versus

1233
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:31,799
Speaker 5: everybody else working in America. If you're working at Amazon,

1234
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 5: you're not getting fifty cents for every dollar you generate, right,

1235
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 5: So you know, those deals are hard fought deals. I

1236
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 5: think that that, you know, the future of the w

1237
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 5: NBA now, especially as they approach the zenith, they need

1238
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 5: a fair revenue share deal. And this idea that this

1239
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 5: idea that you know, we're going to create kind of

1240
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 5: something on the side and they're going to kind of

1241
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:00,719
Speaker 5: do this thing. Well, that's that needs to be over.

1242
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:05,400
Speaker 5: I mean, I was in I mean, I'm gonna have

1243
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:07,240
Speaker 5: a tough walking down the street in d C. But

1244
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:10,679
Speaker 5: you know, I went to the w NBA games and

1245
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:12,880
Speaker 5: in d C and there were more people there than

1246
01:15:12,920 --> 01:15:19,880
Speaker 5: the Wizards game. I'm just making an observation, making an observation.

1247
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 5: I'm just making an observation in trouble. But but yeah,

1248
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:27,479
Speaker 5: you know, and so you know, you you see a

1249
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:32,679
Speaker 5: you see a fever and and uh and a fact

1250
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:36,560
Speaker 5: that meant these people aren't showing up with like isolated

1251
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:40,800
Speaker 5: ticket sales. I mean, they're showing up with season ticket purchases.

1252
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:46,360
Speaker 5: And if I were, you know, anybody representing their union,

1253
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 5: we would say, Okay, let's find out how much money

1254
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 5: is coming in and let's see what our share is.

1255
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,800
Speaker 5: I mean, that's a fair question, and more power to them.

1256
01:15:56,800 --> 01:15:59,599
Speaker 5: I mean I I I had the pleasure of working

1257
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:01,599
Speaker 5: with him in the past and with the US women's

1258
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 5: national team and the w the NWSL. I can get

1259
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:13,080
Speaker 5: myself in further trouble, man it. The women on the

1260
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 5: union side are serial killers, and I think that they

1261
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:26,719
Speaker 5: approach it with a level of righteous ruthlessness that every

1262
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:31,960
Speaker 5: union member has to approach it, and they understand the issues.

1263
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:33,600
Speaker 5: I'm sure you've seen it too. I mean it was

1264
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:37,720
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks ago. I turned in tuned in late,

1265
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 5: saw the end of a w NBA game and then

1266
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:44,719
Speaker 5: you know, watch the postgame press conference and before anybody

1267
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:47,400
Speaker 5: would ask a question or get an answer about you know,

1268
01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 5: what the score, how the game went, and I saw

1269
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:54,200
Speaker 5: two women go off about the structure of their CBA

1270
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:57,719
Speaker 5: and how it's unfair and how they are united about

1271
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:00,680
Speaker 5: getting a better deal and I I mean, as a

1272
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 5: union guy, I'm watching that like I'm nearly well en

1273
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:09,920
Speaker 5: up what because you know, it's it's that post game conference.

1274
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:13,439
Speaker 5: And let's just flip it around. How many times have

1275
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 5: you seen any male athlete post game start off the

1276
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 5: press conference with a CBA discussion?

1277
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:26,600
Speaker 2: Well least in the modern day men male athletes have

1278
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:30,160
Speaker 2: the luxury of being treated a certain way. So when

1279
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:32,920
Speaker 2: you are always fighting for your dignity, always fighting for

1280
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:34,440
Speaker 2: your respect as the women.

1281
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:35,759
Speaker 5: Are, and that's why it's different.

1282
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:37,880
Speaker 1: That's why it feels because your back is.

1283
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:41,439
Speaker 5: Always against the walls. What else can you do to

1284
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 5: make enough money?

1285
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 1: As it is, you take away what I got.

1286
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 5: As my mother would say, I'm about to pull off

1287
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:51,680
Speaker 5: my shoe. You know, That's what it is, and I

1288
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 5: think it it look it just necessarily is the way

1289
01:17:57,360 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 5: that a labor union should think as opposed to you know,

1290
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:04,559
Speaker 5: I think things are pretty good. You know, how hard

1291
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:06,479
Speaker 5: are we going to fight for the stuff we want?

1292
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 5: I mean, that's just a different frame. I mean they're

1293
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:12,720
Speaker 5: fighting for a I mean, up until recently, they were

1294
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 5: just fighting for a liberal salary. And I dig it. Literally,

1295
01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:24,440
Speaker 5: I texted Terry that night watching watching these two incredible

1296
01:18:24,439 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 5: women talk about their CBA structure, and what I love

1297
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 5: about it is, you know, as a reporter covering it

1298
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:34,560
Speaker 5: your captive, you're just.

1299
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:35,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's great.

1300
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:37,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1301
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:39,880
Speaker 2: I have tried to explain to people, tell I'm blue

1302
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:41,599
Speaker 2: in the face, like what this is really about.

1303
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:43,800
Speaker 1: But I think they'll reach a deal.

1304
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 2: I don't think there will be a lockout because there's

1305
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:46,920
Speaker 2: just too much a steak on both sides.

1306
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:47,719
Speaker 1: So I think they'll be fine.

1307
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:50,960
Speaker 5: I would hope, I would hope. I mean I do know.

1308
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:54,439
Speaker 5: I mean, they're not backing down.

1309
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:58,120
Speaker 1: If the owners are thinking like, oh we they'll never

1310
01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:01,880
Speaker 1: let up dealing with you do not know it.

1311
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:05,439
Speaker 5: And I think the the you know, that ability to

1312
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 5: demonstrate that before you get into the negotiation rooms. I

1313
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,479
Speaker 5: was always trying to explain to my guys. You know,

1314
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:14,760
Speaker 5: sometimes they think it's some sort of magic words that

1315
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:18,639
Speaker 5: you say at the negotiation table. Now you your deal

1316
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 5: is inextricably tied to how much leverage before you walk

1317
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 5: in the door. That's it. I mean, no one is

1318
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:30,719
Speaker 5: going to come up with something magical, you know, except

1319
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 5: maybe the secret insurance possible, but nobody for the most

1320
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:34,479
Speaker 5: part is going to come.

1321
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 1: Everybody to read the book.

1322
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:38,320
Speaker 2: You'll find out about the secret of the policy, which

1323
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 2: is one of the great big joker moments of thank.

1324
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:43,559
Speaker 1: You in NFL history.

1325
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 2: Which leads me to sort of my next to last

1326
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:49,160
Speaker 2: question here, and that is, when you look back on

1327
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:56,760
Speaker 2: your fourteen years with the NFLPA, what what.

1328
01:19:57,040 --> 01:19:58,000
Speaker 1: Sense does it give you?

1329
01:19:58,040 --> 01:19:58,120
Speaker 5: Like?

1330
01:19:58,120 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 2: How do you feel about you? Do you feel accomplished?

1331
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 2: How do you feel about what you the work you

1332
01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 2: were able to do.

1333
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:07,880
Speaker 5: I'm really proud of the work we did. It was,

1334
01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:11,240
Speaker 5: without a doubt, the hardest thing I've ever done. I

1335
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 5: never thought it was going to be that hard. I

1336
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:23,599
Speaker 5: really didn't it. It personally pushed me to a place where,

1337
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:25,599
Speaker 5: you know, at times, it's a place where I wish

1338
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:30,560
Speaker 5: I hadn't gone. But it it taxed me in a

1339
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:34,840
Speaker 5: way that I never thought I would be. I learned

1340
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:38,600
Speaker 5: a lot about myself. It forces you, At least for me,

1341
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 5: it forced me to come to grips with this idea

1342
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:47,640
Speaker 5: of of what does it all mean, you know, and

1343
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:51,680
Speaker 5: how does it all fit? And and I'm thankful that

1344
01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:54,360
Speaker 5: I got there. You know that that it just wasn't

1345
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 5: a you know, one more job or one more you know,

1346
01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:01,840
Speaker 5: one more stop, you know, along the way I look

1347
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:05,559
Speaker 5: at I look at our institutions, and one that I

1348
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:09,280
Speaker 5: revere the most is the press because it is the

1349
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:15,320
Speaker 5: fourth estate. And I think we find ourselves when things

1350
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:23,280
Speaker 5: aren't terrible, that perhaps we don't think how precarious things

1351
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:27,000
Speaker 5: like free speech and a free press are, And then

1352
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:33,160
Speaker 5: when things get tough and you see people literally going

1353
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:35,680
Speaker 5: out of their way to try to destroy something like

1354
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:43,000
Speaker 5: newspapers and journalists and targeting journalist, you realize, oh, well,

1355
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 5: wait a minute, this is this is where this whole

1356
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:49,760
Speaker 5: thing fits. I'm glad that after the fourteen years, I

1357
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:56,559
Speaker 5: understand where unions fit, and where personal responsibility fit, and

1358
01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:01,360
Speaker 5: where our understanding of our own unique journeys, whether you're

1359
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:04,560
Speaker 5: you're an immigrant or whether you you know, fled to

1360
01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:09,519
Speaker 5: Jim Crow South, where it all fits. Because I think

1361
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:14,759
Speaker 5: that if the converse to that is, if you allow

1362
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 5: yourself to simply be in a world where you're just

1363
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:25,439
Speaker 5: constantly being entertained by it, it's not meaningful. So I'm

1364
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:27,600
Speaker 5: really proud of what we did. I'm really proud of

1365
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:31,280
Speaker 5: the people I work with. I have, you know, I

1366
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:33,760
Speaker 5: have ten thousand regrets, you know, there's all sorts of

1367
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 5: things I wish I would have done differently, but there's

1368
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 5: very few things that I would change.

1369
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:41,040
Speaker 1: All right.

1370
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 2: Now this is where we make some headlines, all right,

1371
01:22:43,240 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 2: all right? So all right, end every podcast with what

1372
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:48,120
Speaker 2: I call the messy question.

1373
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:51,919
Speaker 7: But in your case, yeah, because all of it's messy

1374
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,640
Speaker 7: because you're d Smith and the wealth of things that

1375
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 7: you dropped in your in your book Turf Fors, which

1376
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:00,200
Speaker 7: comes out when August fifth, August Fish.

1377
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:02,640
Speaker 5: And I got to do the audiobook.

1378
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:05,200
Speaker 1: Oh, we'll talk about that.

1379
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:07,160
Speaker 5: It is.

1380
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:11,960
Speaker 1: I can relate. Just know that, all right. So I

1381
01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 1: have what I would call for you a messy question. Ye,

1382
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 1: Lightning Rod sneaky is NFL owner? I know they all

1383
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:29,559
Speaker 1: are to some degree. Jerry Jerry cheapest NFL owner.

1384
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:35,200
Speaker 5: Oh my god, Mike Brown not not even clothes, I like,

1385
01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 5: I don't even know. By the way, no one's gonna

1386
01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:40,760
Speaker 5: be surprised by that, right, no one. The guy gave

1387
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:46,120
Speaker 5: me a stack of Hard Knocks tapes on vhs.

1388
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:48,640
Speaker 1: Wait what years this?

1389
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 5: I think it was twenty ta.

1390
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm not kidding.

1391
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:57,400
Speaker 5: I'm not kidding. Once again, didn't even make the book. Yeah,

1392
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 5: why I met with him and it was over, and

1393
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:06,599
Speaker 5: then he had the stack of VHS tests on his dad.

1394
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:12,360
Speaker 5: He goes, hey, d this is my gift to you, right, yeah, okay, man,

1395
01:24:12,479 --> 01:24:14,000
Speaker 5: that might be worse than Upty.

1396
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:19,639
Speaker 1: Like the words of that. Which owner would you guess

1397
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:21,639
Speaker 1: probably cheats the most in golf?

1398
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:26,880
Speaker 5: Oh hm hmm, that'd be a good question. I'm gonna

1399
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 5: have to go that. I think. Would you have to

1400
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 5: get with Tepper? I mean, anybody who would throw a

1401
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 5: drink on his own fan, right, I mean it's like

1402
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:38,559
Speaker 5: it's your own stadium, the Carolina Panthers, Like.

1403
01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:46,200
Speaker 1: Why why the owner you most like to get drunk with?

1404
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:52,280
Speaker 5: Once again? Uh, that's gonna be a tie between Robert

1405
01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:54,719
Speaker 5: and Robert Kraft and and Jerry Johnson.

1406
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:56,799
Speaker 1: I would have guess Jerry would have been number one because.

1407
01:24:56,600 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 5: Jerry is that the stories a are off the Chaine.

1408
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:04,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I said, Robert Crab so gentlemanly kind of.

1409
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:10,360
Speaker 5: And I guess that's why Robert is just a pure gentleman.

1410
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:12,719
Speaker 1: And about extensive.

1411
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:19,640
Speaker 5: The fun drinking with him would be. It kind of

1412
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:25,439
Speaker 5: strips away a little bit of the the formalism. And

1413
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:27,880
Speaker 5: one thing I learned from him is he's one of

1414
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 5: the few owners that actually thinks large about the league,

1415
01:25:31,360 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 5: and and that was I wouldn't have seen that.

1416
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:38,840
Speaker 1: And finally, the owner you trust to actually do the right.

1417
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:49,680
Speaker 5: Thing, Robert, I think, I think, I think that that

1418
01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:56,280
Speaker 5: very few of them have gone through such a long

1419
01:25:56,400 --> 01:26:01,479
Speaker 5: run at at at the NFL where they have come

1420
01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:05,560
Speaker 5: away with an understanding of first, we're all kind of

1421
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:10,439
Speaker 5: blessed to be in this ecosystem, right, And and I

1422
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:14,960
Speaker 5: think he was one of the few people that understands

1423
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:17,880
Speaker 5: that even though the thing has just been a juggernaut,

1424
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:23,160
Speaker 5: that to pretend that this thing is can't be toppled,

1425
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:27,519
Speaker 5: that it can't be eroded from within, that there could

1426
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 5: be a problem that destabilizes the business model. All that's folly.

1427
01:26:31,479 --> 01:26:33,559
Speaker 5: And I think that's right. And I think he's probably

1428
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:37,200
Speaker 5: one of the few that actually gives that a certain

1429
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:40,760
Speaker 5: amount of thought, that we're gonna have our dust ups,

1430
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:47,160
Speaker 5: but this thing might be more precarious than than than

1431
01:26:47,200 --> 01:26:50,519
Speaker 5: we think, and we all have to exercise really good judgment.

1432
01:26:53,760 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 5: He's probably you know, he's probably it on that on

1433
01:26:56,280 --> 01:26:59,160
Speaker 5: that on that front. But you know, between that and

1434
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:01,679
Speaker 5: a funny story with Jerry Man, nobody makes you laugh

1435
01:27:02,439 --> 01:27:03,519
Speaker 5: like like that guy.

1436
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:06,920
Speaker 2: So the owner most likely to go out like Dan Snyder,

1437
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:14,719
Speaker 2: I kid, I kid, I mean, well, you don't answer.

1438
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:17,200
Speaker 1: That was not ask you a question. I was just

1439
01:27:17,280 --> 01:27:19,200
Speaker 1: a joke. I want to thank you so much.

1440
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 5: I want to thank you.

1441
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:23,719
Speaker 1: No, this is this is a great conversation. Highly encourage

1442
01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:25,360
Speaker 1: everybody to read her fors.

1443
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:30,680
Speaker 2: It is fascinating on so many levels, and you know,

1444
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:33,800
Speaker 2: it helped me understand, especially as somebody in the media

1445
01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:35,760
Speaker 2: who often had to talk about these situations.

1446
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:38,600
Speaker 1: One you really start to understand how much you don't know.

1447
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:45,640
Speaker 2: And in particular, taking us through, taking readers through what

1448
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:48,840
Speaker 2: happened with the flake Gate, it makes me understand the

1449
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:53,120
Speaker 2: Brady New England split so much differently than I did

1450
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 2: at the time it happened. Some stuffing you kind of knew,

1451
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 2: but then you're you know the fact that you and Brady,

1452
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:03,679
Speaker 2: I mean y'all you know, yeah, I was like stark, Danny,

1453
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:10,200
Speaker 2: I mean really writing and so well and it really

1454
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:13,320
Speaker 2: a different context about how.

1455
01:28:13,360 --> 01:28:14,479
Speaker 1: And why that happened.

1456
01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:17,160
Speaker 5: There's always a backstory, and that was.

1457
01:28:17,320 --> 01:28:18,000
Speaker 1: A heck of a one.

1458
01:28:18,040 --> 01:28:21,240
Speaker 2: So I encourage everybody to read it. Turf Wars great read,

1459
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:23,880
Speaker 2: quick read. So thank you again.

1460
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:24,800
Speaker 1: Luck with the book.

1461
01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:26,600
Speaker 5: Thank you very much. And look, I gotta say this,

1462
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:32,519
Speaker 5: you were always my hero. I'm well, look you, I

1463
01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:35,120
Speaker 5: met you back with you and Michael Smith one hundred

1464
01:28:35,160 --> 01:28:45,920
Speaker 5: years ago. Very few reporters gave me the level of hey,

1465
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:47,840
Speaker 5: let's just listen to what this guy's going to say,

1466
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:52,640
Speaker 5: and and you and a and of others did and

1467
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:53,519
Speaker 5: I'll never forget it.

1468
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:59,280
Speaker 1: Appreciate that. Thank you. One more segment to go coming

1469
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:00,760
Speaker 1: up next, the Final Spin.

1470
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:15,559
Speaker 2: Time for the Final Spin. The topic in game interviews

1471
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:19,439
Speaker 2: with coaches the spin. They give viewers great insight and

1472
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 2: insider access.

1473
01:29:21,080 --> 01:29:21,519
Speaker 1: The truth.

1474
01:29:22,200 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 2: These interviews suck and the networks need to stop doing them.

1475
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:30,200
Speaker 2: The latest example Minnesota Leafs coach Cheryl Reeves's recent interview

1476
01:29:30,400 --> 01:29:32,759
Speaker 2: that took place during the Lynx's game with the New York.

1477
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:34,639
Speaker 5: Coach.

1478
01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:38,799
Speaker 3: How would you describe the chemistry and connection between Courtney

1479
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:40,679
Speaker 3: Williams and the FISA Collier?

1480
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:41,559
Speaker 5: It's great.

1481
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 7: Courtney Williams didn't have didn't find the bottom of the bucket,

1482
01:29:46,120 --> 01:29:48,200
Speaker 7: but had a great floor game in that first half

1483
01:29:48,240 --> 01:29:49,599
Speaker 7: with the eight assists.

1484
01:29:49,640 --> 01:29:51,280
Speaker 5: What did you like that you saw from her? Coach

1485
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:55,040
Speaker 5: stater to be addressive? All right, thank you Cheryl.

1486
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:57,920
Speaker 1: Thank you, Cheryl, thank you for giving that interview.

1487
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:01,599
Speaker 2: The Greg Popovich treatment resumed to speak for many people,

1488
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:04,479
Speaker 2: but I think I can speak for all the fans

1489
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 2: when I say interviewing coaches as the game is being

1490
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:12,000
Speaker 2: played serve zero purpose, give you zero insight, and it's

1491
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:14,240
Speaker 2: an annoying distraction from the only.

1492
01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:16,200
Speaker 1: Thing that matters the actual game.

1493
01:30:16,600 --> 01:30:19,040
Speaker 2: Now, it's one thing to interview coaches at halftime or

1494
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:22,200
Speaker 2: even before a quarter begins, because the coaches are usually

1495
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:26,280
Speaker 2: composed enough to give you a little something. These endgame

1496
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:30,400
Speaker 2: interviews is very much giving the network producers trying to

1497
01:30:30,520 --> 01:30:33,200
Speaker 2: prove how smart they are at the expense of serving

1498
01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:37,800
Speaker 2: their audience. The coaches are totally distracted, often can't even

1499
01:30:37,840 --> 01:30:41,200
Speaker 2: hear the question because they're so distracted by the game

1500
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:44,360
Speaker 2: going on, and the entire interaction feels awkward and forced.

1501
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 2: So please cut the shit, ESPN. This concludes another episode.

1502
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:50,960
Speaker 2: As Politics. You could reach me across all social media

1503
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 2: platforms or via email. I'm Jamelle Hill across all of

1504
01:30:54,200 --> 01:30:57,439
Speaker 2: social media Twitter, Instagram, fan based, Blue Sky, and threads.

1505
01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:00,760
Speaker 2: Please use the hashtags politics. You also have the option

1506
01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:04,000
Speaker 2: of emailing me as Politics twenty twenty four at gmail

1507
01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:04,479
Speaker 2: dot com.

1508
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:06,719
Speaker 1: You can also video on me a question, but please

1509
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 1: make sure it's thirty seconds or less.

1510
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:11,880
Speaker 2: Don't forget to follow and subscribe to Politics on iHeart

1511
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 2: and follows Politics Pod on Instagram and TikTok. Politics is

1512
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:17,840
Speaker 2: spelled s p O l I t I c S.

1513
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:22,000
Speaker 2: A new episode is Politics drops every Thursday on iHeart

1514
01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:26,120
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is politics

1515
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:29,160
Speaker 2: where sports and politics don't just mix, They matter.

1516
01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:37,360
Speaker 1: Politics is the production of iHeart Podcasts and.

1517
01:31:37,360 --> 01:31:42,000
Speaker 2: The Unbothered Network. I'm your host Jamail Hill. Executive producer

1518
01:31:42,160 --> 01:31:45,120
Speaker 2: is Taylor Chakoige. Lucas Hymen is head of audio and

1519
01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:49,840
Speaker 2: executive producer. Original music for Spolitics provided by Kyle Visz

1520
01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:51,200
Speaker 2: from wiz fx