1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Could you ever know what it's like to be someone else? 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: What does this have to do with bats? Or empathy 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: or bomb robots or Helen Keller or literature or when 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: someone says I know exactly how you feel. Welcome to 5 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: inner cosmos with me, David Eagelman. I'm a neuroscientist and 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: an author at Stanford and in these episodes we sail 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,319 Speaker 1: deeply into our three pound universe to understand why and 8 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: how our lives look the way they do. Today's episode 9 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: is about the question of whether we can ever really 10 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: know what it's like to be someone else? Why are 11 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: we all so different? And is it possible that those 12 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: gaps are unbridgable. We'll examine this from the point of 13 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: view of neuroscience and philosophy and literature, and then technology. 14 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: Can new tech ever allow us to better understand what 15 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: it is to be someone else? Or is there an 16 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: inherent impossibility? So let's start with a simple question, what 17 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: is it like to be a bat? Now? This is 18 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: an interesting question because bats are so different from us. 19 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: They are mammals like us, but in many ways their 20 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: lives are unrecognizably foreign to our own. They sleep upside down, 21 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: but more importantly, they navigate through their dark caverns by 22 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: emitting little shrieks, and then their extremely sensitive ears pick 23 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: up on the echoes from that, and they figure out 24 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: the dimensional structure of the world in which they're flying. 25 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: And they can do this with terrific resolutions, such that 26 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: they can catch a flying moth just with this echolocation 27 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: in the pitch black. So in nineteen seventy four, the 28 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,399 Speaker 1: philosopher Thomas Nagel wrote an essay by this title, What 29 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: Is It Like To Be a Bat? And it quickly 30 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: became one of the most famous thought experiments in modern philosophy, 31 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: because it challenges something fundamental about one of our intuitions. 32 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: He suggested that no matter how much we study another 33 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: being's brain or behavior or sensory experiences, we can't ever 34 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 1: truly grasp what their subjective experience feels like from the inside. 35 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: Nagel used the bat as his example, because seeing the 36 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: world through echolocation is a perfectly good sensory solution, but 37 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: it's totally foreign to cited humans. His point was that 38 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: we can study the process of echolocation scientifically, and we 39 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: can analyze how it works, and we can simulate it 40 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: with machines, and we can measure how a bat's brain 41 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: responds to these signals, but we can't feel it. We 42 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: can't step inside a bat's world and know what it 43 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: is like to move through space by sound. We can 44 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: understand it intellectually, but not experientially. And that brings us 45 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: to the question of this episode and the next one. 46 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: Can you ever truly know what it is like to 47 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: be something else, like another creature? But more importantly, can 48 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: you ever really know what it's like to be another person? 49 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: Not just sympathize with them, but really inhabit their world 50 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: from the inside out, know what it's like to be them. 51 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: When we're children, we think this is self. It's evidently 52 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: true that everyone is like us on the inside. But 53 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: as we get older, we recognize more and more differences, 54 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: and the question becomes more nuanced, because, as I've talked 55 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: about on many episodes, people can be very different from 56 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: one to the next on the inside. So we're gonna 57 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: dive deep into that and what it means. But first 58 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: let's get back to Nagel and bats to set the table. 59 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: Nagel's proposal was that there's something about subjective experience that's 60 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: just not accessible from the outside. So essentially, he said, look, 61 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: even if we had the most detailed scientific account of 62 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: the mental processes in the bat, even if we could 63 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: write down every neuron in the bat's brain and exactly 64 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: what the activity is doing, and even point to the 65 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: genes involved, and we could model the way that echolocation 66 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: works and simulate the bat's behavior perfectly, still we wouldn't 67 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: have answered the question what it is like to be 68 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: that bat? And this is the problem of the subjective 69 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: character of experience. It's not about behavior or function or 70 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: brain states. It's about what it feels like to be 71 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: a conscious creature, and that what it feels like quality. 72 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: This is what we call qualitia, the internal experience of something. Now, 73 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: qualia turn out to be really tough for science. Why 74 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 1: because science aims for objectivity. It tries to strip away 75 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: individual perspectives so that we can find truths that are 76 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: universally valid. But conscious experience just doesn't cooperate with that. 77 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: Consciousness is defined by perspective. It's the one thing that 78 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: can't be fully described in third person terms. There's no 79 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: outside view of the inside experience. So Nagel pointed to 80 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: bats simply because their sensory world is so different from 81 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: ours that it forces us to confront the limits of 82 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: our imagination. We can imagine what it would be like 83 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: for us to behave like a bat. We can imagine 84 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: hanging upside down, or eating insects, or maybe even using 85 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: sonar as a tool. But that's not what he's asking. 86 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: He's asking what is it like for the bat to 87 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: be the bat? And that he says is something we'll 88 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: never know, not even in principle. And this reminds us 89 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: that knowledge comes in different forms. There's the kind of 90 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: knowledge we can write down and measure and test, and 91 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: then there's the kind that lives only in the first person, 92 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: in the me in the subjective point of view. And 93 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: that second kind, that inner experience, isn't something we can 94 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: share or translate fully, even with the best science. So 95 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: this returns us to the question, can you ever truly 96 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: know what it's like to be another person? Even when 97 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about someone we know intimately, we're up against 98 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: a wall because experience is totally private. And maybe this 99 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: is not just a philosophical or scientific challenge. Maybe this 100 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,559 Speaker 1: is a human challenge, because no matter how we try, 101 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: there is a part of every person, every mind that 102 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: is forever out of reach. So let's zoom out for 103 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: a minute to make clear how much difference there is 104 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: between everyone's experience in the world. So let me start 105 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,119 Speaker 1: with just a simple personal example. Many years ago, during 106 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: my postdoctoral fellowship, I dated a young woman and even 107 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: though she was often quite sad inside, she had a 108 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: very stunning Hollywood smile that she would paste on and 109 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: it would light up the room every time she did. So. 110 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: One day we went into a restaurant together and we 111 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: had to get to the back, but it was packed, 112 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: so we had to wind our way through a crowded 113 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: maze of tables to get to the back, and the 114 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: only way we could squeeze through was with me scooching 115 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: in right behind her, And because I was taller than 116 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: she was, I could see over her head as we 117 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: wound our way through, So she was the front guard 118 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: and I was mostly hidden behind her, and what I 119 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: saw was like a VR experience. Suddenly I was seeing 120 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: the world through a different set of eyes because she 121 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: had turned on her smile, and as we wound through 122 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: the crowd, everyone looked up at her and smiled back 123 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: and moved their chairs out of the way. It's not 124 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: that people weren't normally perfectly nice to me alone as well, 125 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: but there was a noticeable difference here. It was like 126 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: I was wearing the costume of someone else, and I 127 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: saw the world through her eyes and how people looked 128 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: at her and reacted to her. I saw how she 129 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: experienced the social realm. Now that told me something about 130 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: her experience of the world, But still the question remains 131 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: about her experience on the inside. What is that like 132 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: to her? We can extrapolate make some guess is but 133 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: how accurate are we? Of course? Lots of people experience 134 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: the world differently. Take height. What would it be like 135 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: if you were looking up at people at a cocktail 136 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: party because you were quite short? Or what's it like 137 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: if you're looking down on people because you're quite tall? 138 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: Does that change your social experience of the world. What 139 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: would it be like if you had much stronger arms 140 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: or legs and could do things yourself that you thought 141 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: you couldn't, or vice versa. What if you were the 142 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: opposite gender or looked very different than you do now? 143 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: There are a thousand little ways in which the body 144 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: that you're trapped in subtly changes your experience in the world. 145 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: But again, that's just the starting point for your internal life. 146 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: And if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, 147 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: you know that one of my main interests is about 148 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: the differences in our internal lives. The world looks and 149 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: sounds and feels a bit different to you than the 150 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: person sitting next to you. Many of my episodes have 151 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: explored this question the astonishing variety of internal experiences that 152 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: people have. For example, take synesthesia. Some people will look 153 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: at letters or numbers on a page and that will 154 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: trigger an experience of color, or that listen to music 155 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: and that will trigger swirling visual forms, or they'll taste 156 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: something and that'll put a feeling on their fingertips. This 157 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: isn't metaphorical stuff. This is a real experience that a 158 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: fraction of the population has. Their senses are crosswired in 159 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: a way that makes their inner world different from someone else's. 160 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: If you're interested in synesthesia, I talk about that at 161 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: length in episode four, or you've heard me talk about 162 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: other ways in which we might see things in our imagination. 163 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: One example of this is the spectrum from hyperfantasia to 164 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: a fantasia, which I talk about in episode fifty nine 165 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: or hyperfantasic, you visualize things with great clarity, almost like 166 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: a movie. If you are a fantasic, you don't form 167 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: any mental images. Let's say I ask you to imagine 168 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: a yellow dog running in a shallow creek in the woods. 169 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: The hyperfantagic person visually imagines that with great detail, almost 170 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: like they're watching it. A fantagic person sees nothing, no dog, 171 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: no color, no visual sense of shape or motion. Everyone 172 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: in the population is spread somewhere along the spectrum and 173 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: having different experiences on the inside. And there are dozens 174 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: of things like this. I've previously talked about word aversion 175 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 1: in episode twenty six. Word aversion is the immediate emotional 176 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: disgust that some people feel when they hear particular words 177 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: like moist or tissue or slacks or panties or nugget. 178 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: For most people, these words are just vocabulary, but for 179 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: other people they trigger an immediate visceral response like discuss 180 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: or anxiety. The point is across the population, even something 181 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: as simple as how you experience a word can be 182 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: very different from one brain to another. When we start 183 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: looking for examples like these. In neuroscience, things like synesthesia 184 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: or a fantasia or word a version. We just find 185 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: more and more examples. The differences in people's internal worlds 186 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: are real, and they're measurable, as has been done by 187 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: my lab and dozens of others. And I'm attaching some 188 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: studies to the show notes, and these differences between people, 189 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: they're not just about preferences or histories or what we 190 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: pay attention to. It's about the raw feel of experience itself, 191 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: how we perceive the world, how we process it, how 192 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: we represent it internally. And the more we learn about 193 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: these differences, the more are humble we have to become, 194 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: because it turns out that what you think of as 195 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: being a normal human is just one point on a 196 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: vast spectrum of human minds. Now, this doesn't stop us 197 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: from trying to step into another person's shoes. And this 198 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: is the notion of empathy, which is something our brains 199 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: do automatically. Empathy is our brain's ability to simulate what 200 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: someone else is going through, and researchers typically divide this 201 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: into emotional empathy, which is your ability to share the 202 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: emotional experiences of someone else, and cognitive empathy, understanding the 203 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: other person's perspective or their mental state. Now, even though 204 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: empathy seems like just a feeling you experience, it's of course, 205 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: under the hood a biological algorithm. Now you may have 206 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: heard of mirror neurons, which are neurons that become active 207 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: when you perform some action and also when you see 208 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: someone else do that same action. I mention these because 209 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: many people erroneously think that the mirror neuron system is 210 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: the basis of empathy, but in fact, empathy involves much 211 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: more than that, because you also need a whole collection 212 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: of regions that integrate emotional information and social information and 213 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: tell you what are the really salient things to pay 214 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: attention to. So nowadays you can put together hundreds of 215 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: brain imaging studies fMRI to see that there's a whole 216 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: network of brain regions that come online when you're considering 217 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: the emotions of another person, regions like the anterior insula 218 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: and the anterior singulate cortex, and the amygdala and the 219 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: inferior frontal gyrus. Okay, the details don't matter for today's purpose, 220 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: except to say that all these areas consistently come online 221 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: during tasks that require you to simulate another person's state, 222 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: like if you see them experience pain or distress. Even 223 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: though you're not experiencing that, your brain runs the simulation. Now, 224 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: why do we have such a rich system for simulating 225 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: other people in our heads. It's because biologically, empathy is 226 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: not just a nice to have, it's a survival tool. 227 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: It helps us connect and cooperate and parent and navigate 228 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: the complexities of social life. And in that sense, it's 229 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: not just emotional intelligence we're talking about. It's neural engineering 230 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: evolved for living together in large groups. And this is 231 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: why we flinch when we see someone else in pain, 232 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: and also why laughter spreads so easily through a crowd. 233 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: It's because when we witness another person's emotional state, our 234 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: brains simulate it, creating a kind of inner echo of 235 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: what they're feeling. It's not the real thing, but it's 236 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: a rough sketch. And this capacity for empathy is very 237 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: useful for what's known as theory of mind, which I 238 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: talked about in episode seventy two. This is the cognitive 239 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: ability to understand that other people have thoughts and feelings 240 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: and perspectives different from yours. Little kids don't have theory 241 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: of mind, but it develops through early childhood and that 242 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: moment when a Toddler realizes that another mind is not 243 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: the same as theirs. This marks the beginning of perspective taking. 244 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: This is the foundation of social connection and storytelling and 245 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: even deception, because without theory of mind, you'd be stuck 246 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: in your own mental bubble. And by the way, having 247 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: good theory of mind is something we keep refining our 248 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: whole lives. Some people become especially fluent in it, especially 249 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: people like actors or therapists or even parents. Other people 250 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: struggle with theory of mind, not because they're cruel, but 251 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: because the skill of imagining someone else's internal world takes 252 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: practice and effort and humility and the right kind of 253 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 1: neural circuitry. So we are as species who tries to 254 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: model one another. We try to step into each other's shoes, 255 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: but we're really not so good at it. Mostly we 256 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 1: just assume that everyone else is like us on the inside. 257 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: When you really look at empathy, you can see that 258 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 1: what we're really doing is imposing our models on what 259 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: we think the other person is feeling. As a really 260 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: good example of this, I've noticed this with videos of 261 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 1: robots produced by a company called Boston Dynamics. You might 262 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: have seen these. They are these robots that look like 263 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: metal dogs, and one of the things the company wanted 264 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: to show is that these dogs are robust against being 265 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: knocked off course. So the robot dog is running forward 266 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: in the video and someone comes out and kicks it, 267 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: and the robot's legs do a quick scramble, and even 268 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: though it tilts to the side, it manages to stay 269 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: upright and it keeps going, which is very impressive. But 270 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: here's the thing. I've seen dozens of people watch these 271 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: videos and they WinCE. Their empathy is stoked. And I 272 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: get it. It looks like a creature, it looks like 273 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: a sentient being, and it's getting kicked. It's really difficult 274 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: to watch this and not feel an empathic sting. But 275 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,959 Speaker 1: I think what this illustrates is our propensity to imagine 276 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: that other things feel the way we do, even when 277 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: there's really no good reason to imagine that we're looking 278 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: at anything other than a collection of nuts and bolts 279 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: and wires in the case of this robot. So, in 280 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: other words, our feelings of empathy are a massively important 281 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: part of our success as a species. Details presumably say 282 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: more about us than they do about the accuracy of 283 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: the feeling in other words, how much your assumptions about 284 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: the inner life of the other is right on target. 285 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: I'll give you another example of the weirdness of this 286 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: our responses to reading or watching fiction. One of the 287 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: classes I teach at Stanford is called Literature and the Brain, 288 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: and an issue I always talk about with amazement is 289 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: the fact that we shed tears, or we laugh out loud, 290 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: or we worry or we agonize over the pain of 291 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: somebody else, someone we know is not real. You're reading 292 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: about let's say John Snow in Game of Thrones, and 293 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: you're aware that the whole world he's in isn't even real. 294 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 1: The author can tell us, look, this is fiction. There 295 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: can be a giant sign in front of you that 296 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: says this is a string of words depicting a world 297 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: that is totally made up, And it won't stop tears 298 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: running down your cheek once something bad happens to John 299 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: snow Now. I'll come back to literature and empathy in 300 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: a moment, because I think literature is one of our 301 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: most important tools for expanding the fence lines of our empathy. 302 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: But for now, I'm just making the point that simply 303 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: because you feel that someone else must be feeling the 304 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: same thing you are. You might be talking about a 305 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: robot or an explicitly made up character, and you'll still 306 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,479 Speaker 1: impose what you believe is this is what that person 307 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: must be feeling. And obviously it's not just with robots 308 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: or fictional characters. We empathize more with people we assume 309 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: are more like us, and that might not be accurate. 310 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: So in episode twenty, I talked about neuroimaging experiments in 311 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: my lab where we put people into the brain scanner 312 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: and we showed them six hands, and one of the 313 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: hands gets selected by the computer and you see that 314 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: hand get stabbed with a syringe needle. This activates a 315 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: net work in your brain that we summarize as the 316 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: pain matrix. And as I mentioned before, this is the 317 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: neural basis of empathy. You're having this fireworks show in 318 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: your brain light up, even though it wasn't your hand 319 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: that got stabbed. You're just watching someone else's hand, and 320 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: yet you are simulating the pain involved. But here's the 321 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: key thing. We then labeled each hand with a one 322 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: word label Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Scientologist, atheist, Hindu, and now 323 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: the computer picks the hands one at a time. And 324 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: you see them get stabbed with this syringe needle. And 325 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: the question is do you care as much if it's 326 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: any of the members of your out group versus the 327 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: label of your in group. So we studied one hundred 328 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: and five people on this and the answer was clear. 329 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: Your brain has a large empathic response when you see 330 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: the hand with your group label get stabbed, and it 331 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: just doesn't muster the same degree of response when it's 332 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: anyone else getting stabbed. And this was equally true across 333 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: all the groups, including the atheists, who cared more when 334 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,479 Speaker 1: they saw the atheist hand get stabbed. So in earlier 335 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: episodes I talked all about the meaning of this from 336 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: a societal point of view, but for today I want 337 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: to emphasize that whatever your religion is or your non religion, 338 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: there are literally millions or billions of people who belong 339 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: to that label too with you, and they are all 340 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: as different as can be, and the spread is enormous, 341 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: And so the idea that you would care for those 342 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: millions of people more than other millions of people suggests 343 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: again that your empathy is not so much about climbing 344 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: into someone else's head, but instead about imposing your model 345 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: onto the external world. So whether that's for robots or 346 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: for John Snow or your group label, it really just 347 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: represents your internal world more than an actual bridge that 348 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: reaches a cross and connects with another. And this I 349 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: think illuminates an important facet of our human experience. We 350 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: started off with the question of whether you can ever 351 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: truly know what it's like to be someone else, And 352 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: on the surface, it seems like we do this all 353 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: the time. We empathize, we imagine, we say things like 354 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: I know exactly how you feel. But do we actually 355 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: when we say to someone that we know how they feel. 356 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: We mean it as a comfort, But sometimes it misses 357 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: the mark because even though two people can go through 358 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: something similar, the emotional landscape can be entirely different. Think 359 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: about somebody that you know really well, maybe your partner, 360 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: and think about some moment in their life that was 361 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: emotionally charged, some loss or some triumph. You might have 362 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: even been there, but did you experience it exactly as 363 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: they did, or is it possible there was something else 364 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: going on inside there in her cosmos? So here's an example. 365 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: A listener recently wrote into me about losing his father. 366 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: He described sitting at the hospital bedside, holding his father's hand, 367 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: feeling the warmth drain away. A friend of his, who 368 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: had also lost a parent, worked to comfort him by saying, 369 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: I know exactly how you feel. But instead of feeling seen, 370 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: he felt misunderstood, because in that moment, his grief was 371 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: raw and specific, tied to a lifetime of private memories 372 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: and smells and words and rituals. His friend's grief was 373 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: real too, but it wasn't the same. This is where 374 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: the question of understanding a bat or another person matters, 375 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: because we share space, we share language, but we can't 376 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: always share perspective. Even when we use the same words, 377 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: like grief or joy or fear, what those as words 378 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: refer to feels different inside of you and me and 379 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: everyone we know. As another example, you and I might 380 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: both bite into an orange and say it tastes sweet, 381 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: But your sweetness is not necessarily my sweetness. It's a 382 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: private event dressed up in public language. Now take that 383 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: idea and stretch it to more complex experiences. What is 384 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: it like to grow up in a war zone, to 385 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 1: live with chronic pain, to navigate the world in a 386 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: body or a mind that's profoundly different from yours? We 387 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: can ask questions, we can listen, we can learn, but 388 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: we also have to acknowledge that there is a hidden 389 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: interior to every life. And this is something that no 390 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: brain scan, no survey, no biology jargon is ever going 391 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: to fully capture. So probably the best thing to do 392 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: with a friend or loved one is not to assume 393 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: that you've been there too, but to be willing to say, 394 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: haven't been there, but I'm here with you now. Now 395 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: this whole episode so far, I've been emphasizing how poor 396 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: we are at expanding our models to know what it 397 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: is like to me someone else, Even among humans' experience 398 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: is just not fully shareable. Empathy isn't mind melding what 399 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: we have our approximations. These are efforts to close the gap, 400 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: but these aren't bridges that actually close it. And yet, 401 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: although we can never do it perfectly, we can get 402 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: better at it through life experience. And one of the 403 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: ways this can be magnified is through the reading of 404 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: literary fiction. There have been a number of studies showing 405 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: that reading literary fiction, especially complex character driven stories, can 406 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 1: improve people's abilities to understand other people's thoughts and emotions. 407 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: One study from twenty thirteen, published in the journal Science, 408 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: found that people who read even a short excerpt of 409 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: literary fiction scored better on tests of theory of mind 410 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: the ability to infer other people's beliefs and desires and emotions. 411 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: The comparison group, by the way, read nonfiction or popular 412 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: genre fiction. The idea is that good fiction asks you 413 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: to inhabit unfamiliar minds. You track subtle emotional shifts, you 414 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: decode social cues, you grapple with ambiguous motives. You're simulating 415 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: other people's minds, and you're getting concentrated practice at it. 416 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: What we find in the brain scanner is that when 417 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: you're reading, this engages the default mode network, which is 418 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: involved in self reflect and imagining other perspectives, and it 419 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: engages other areas that are tied to empathy and social reasoning. 420 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: So every time you get lost in a novel, you're 421 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: training your brain to be a little bit better at 422 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: knowing what it's like to be other people. President Barack 423 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: Obama did an interview with The New York Times in 424 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, and he said, I think that I found 425 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: myself better able to imagine what's going on in the 426 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: lives of people throughout my presidency because of not just 427 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,959 Speaker 1: a specific novel, but the act of reading fiction. It 428 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: exercises those muscles, and I think that has been helpful. 429 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: End quote. This is what literature is good at. We 430 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: get to experience life from a different point of view. 431 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: And this can sometimes apply to nonfiction too. Take Helen Keller, 432 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: a woman who is deaf and blind. She wrote about 433 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: how her reality was shaped by the actile world of 434 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: touch and vibration, not by the vision and hearing that 435 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: most of us take for granted. When we read her, 436 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: we aren't accessing her world directly. We're just catching reflections 437 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: of it. But nonetheless it expands our otherwise naturally small 438 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: view of things. It exercises those muscles, and it makes 439 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: us cognitively broader. In the book To Kill a Mockingbird, 440 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: the character Atticus Finch says, quote, you never really understand 441 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: a person until you consider things from his point of view, 442 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: until you climb inside of his skin and walk around 443 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: in it. End quote. Now, as we've said, you're not 444 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: really walking around in their skin, but you can get 445 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: better at trying it. But I was thinking about that 446 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: idea of climbing inside someone's skin and walking around in it. 447 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: And this idea leads to one of the most intriguing 448 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: frontiers in empathy research today, which is virtual reality. Because 449 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: VR can tempt, imp rarely place you in someone else's shoes, 450 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: not metaphorically, but perceptually, and researchers have started to use 451 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: this as a way to see if they can enhance empathy. 452 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: So in one line of studies, people put on a 453 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: VR headset and they experienced life as a person from 454 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: a different background. So, for example, you can inhabit the 455 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: body of someone of a different race, or a different gender, 456 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: or different ability. You don't just look at them, You 457 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: look down and you see your body as theirs. You 458 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: move your hands and their hands move. It's an embodied simulation, 459 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: and these studies showed that it can measurably increase people's empathy. 460 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: A similar study comes from my colleagues at Stanford. You 461 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: put on VR goggles and you get to experience what 462 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: it's like to become homeless, to lose your home, your belongings, 463 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: your place in the world. So they run the VR 464 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: experience and then afterward people report greater concern for homelessness, 465 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: and they are significantly more likely to sign petitions for 466 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: housing initiatives. What makes virtual reality powerful in these studies 467 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: is that it bypasses the usual roots of reading or 468 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: listening or imagining, and instead it plugs into your perspective 469 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: at a sensory level. Your brain thinks, I know I'm 470 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: not this person, but it feels like I am, and 471 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: empathy begins to take root. So today's episode set the 472 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: table for something very important, which is the question of 473 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: the limits of our objective understanding. We began with Thomas 474 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: Nagel's question what is it like to be a bat? 475 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: Which illustrated the difficulty or maybe the impossibility, of ever 476 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: being able to answer that question, because even if we 477 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: can measure everything about the bat's neurons and firing patterns, 478 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't tell us what it's like to be on 479 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: the inside to be the bat. And we then looked 480 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: at what this means for understand inning other people. We 481 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: all like to imagine that our empathy lets us step 482 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: into the shoes of another person, but as we see 483 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: from our empathic responses to robots or fictional characters, it's 484 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: not necessarily that we're having a mind to mind connection, 485 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: but instead empathy is an expression of our own internal 486 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: model you're imagining what the other person feels, but that 487 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: may or may not have much relation to the reality 488 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: of it. And the study I told you about with 489 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: the labeled hands getting stabbed with a syringe needle, it 490 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: turns out everyone cares more about their own in group 491 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: than whatever their outgroups are, and so that suggests that 492 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: empathy isn't even a terribly sophisticated model, but instead is 493 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: greatly swayed by whether people remind us of ourselves. So 494 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: when we're tempted to say I know exactly how you feel, 495 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: maybe we should pause, because what we really mean is 496 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: I can imagine my version of your experience, and that's 497 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: not necessarily the same thing, but maybe it's enough to 498 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: try to reach, even knowing that we're never going to 499 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: fully arrive, because while we can't fully be someone else, 500 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: the attempt to understand them, even knowing it's incomplete, can 501 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: still be helpful because the project of human connection isn't 502 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: actually about perfect simulation. It's about making room in our 503 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: minds for perspectives that will never fully grasp And this 504 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: leads to a little bit of hope because we can 505 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: get practice at expanding our fence lines, as seen in 506 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: the reading of literature and even experiencing other lives VR 507 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: This sort of exercise can provably expand our internal models, 508 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: at least a little bit, giving us a richer sense 509 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: of different people in different situations. Reading and experiencing it 510 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: makes our empathy a bit wider. But I want to 511 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: come back now to the question I started with, Could 512 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: you ever know what it is like to be someone else? 513 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: Today's episode suggests it's not so easy, But there's an 514 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: interesting question that struck me from the time I was 515 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: a kid, and the longer I've studied neuroscience, the more 516 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: the question seems relevant to me. Could technology ever allow 517 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: us to know what it's really like to be someone else? 518 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: Could we use new techniques or even techniques that will 519 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: exist in the distant future that would allow us to 520 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: change the firing patterns in our brains to make those 521 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: patterns like someone else. Could we do this with electrodes 522 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 1: or with nanobots or do we have old fashioned ways 523 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: of doing this with pharmacology that could shed light on this? 524 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: And what does this have to do with replaying someone 525 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: else's memories or a future with dreams? Celebrities who have 526 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: dreams that go viral or the idea of hooking two 527 00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: brains directly together so people can experience each other's reas reality. 528 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: Want to know the answers, Please join me next week 529 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: for part two of Could You ever Really Know what 530 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: It's like to be someone else? I can't wait to 531 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: see you. Then go to eagleman dot com slash podcast 532 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: for more information and to find further reading. Send me 533 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: an email at podcasts at eagleman dot com with questions 534 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,720 Speaker 1: or discussion. Join my substack at David Eigleman dot substack 535 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: dot com and check out and subscribe to Inner Cosmos 536 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: on YouTube for videos of each episode and to leave 537 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: comments Until next time. I'm David Eagleman and this is 538 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: Inner Cosmos.