Speaker 1: Pushkin. Ann Wilson is the powerhouse lead singer of the
Speaker 1: band Heart, who celebrated classic debut album Dreamboat. Annie came
Speaker 1: out nearly fifty years ago. Last week, we featured an
Speaker 1: interview with her sister and longtime bandmatee Nancy Wilson, so
Speaker 1: make sure to check that out if you haven't already. Today,
Speaker 1: we'll hear from Anne, who's responsible for belting out and
Speaker 1: co writing some of Heart's most iconic early hits like
Speaker 1: Magic Man, Barracuda, and Crazy On You. Four years older
Speaker 1: than Nancy, Anne was the first Wilson's sister to join Heart,
Speaker 1: a band that started out as a cabaret cover band.
Speaker 1: Despite undergoing multiple lineup changes since the seventies, Heart has
Speaker 1: released top ten albums in nearly every decade in the
Speaker 1: last fifty years and sold over twenty million albums worldwide.
Speaker 1: Outside of Heart, Ann has also released solo material, including
Speaker 1: an album in twenty two three with her band Tripsitter.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to Ann Wilson about
Speaker 1: Heart's current world tour and the Elton John albums she
Speaker 1: sings before every show to warm up her voice. Anne
Speaker 1: also explains how she would strategically play guitars around her
Speaker 1: house when having parties at her Seattle home in the
Speaker 1: nineties to encourage jam sessions with guests like Lane Staley
Speaker 1: and Chris Cornell, and she remembers singing on stage with
Speaker 1: Grace Slick and Stevie Nicks, who Anne says really is
Speaker 1: a witch, but a good one. This is broken record
Speaker 1: liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Mitchman. Here's
Speaker 1: Lea Rose's conversation with Ann Wilson of Heart.
Speaker 2: Have you reimagined the band at all this time going out?
Speaker 2: I know it's been five years since Hart has toured.
Speaker 2: How has the band changed?
Speaker 3: Will the band has changed completely? Because nothing about it
Speaker 3: is the same except me and Nancy. Well, Ryan Waters
Speaker 3: was out in twenty nineteen, and this time we have
Speaker 3: the Tripsitter Band, which is my solo band as part
Speaker 3: with Ryan Waters and Nancy and I and it is
Speaker 3: a fantastic group. It's just wow. Blows me away every
Speaker 3: time we go and play some of these old Heart songs.
Speaker 3: You know, with this group of people, they just they
Speaker 3: understand the music and they just totally explode into it.
Speaker 3: It's amazing.
Speaker 2: And the trips that our guys are. From my understanding,
Speaker 2: they originally were session players in Nashville.
Speaker 3: They were, and they have reached a point in their careers,
Speaker 3: all of them where they don't want to do that anymore.
Speaker 3: Is a way of life. They want their own band.
Speaker 3: They don't want to just be working, you know, working
Speaker 3: for other people, doing what other people tell them to do.
Speaker 3: They want to be in a band where they have
Speaker 3: a say and they have ideas that get used and
Speaker 3: you know, it's a real band. And that's what we
Speaker 3: have with Heart at this point. You know, Heart's had
Speaker 3: many many iterations over the decades, different lineups and different
Speaker 3: kinds of things. Sometimes it's more acoustics. Sometimes it's way
Speaker 3: rock and grungy, almost like in the early two thousands,
Speaker 3: and sometimes it's pretty traditional a classic art. This is
Speaker 3: something completely new. I mean, it's huge in some points,
Speaker 3: really passionate. The dynamics are incredible. I mean, I can't
Speaker 3: say enough good stuff. I guess I'm just waxing.
Speaker 2: How do you practice when you're in a rehearsal space
Speaker 2: before you go out on tour? How can you practice
Speaker 2: to play arenas since the physical space is so different.
Speaker 3: Well, what we hear is what we have in our heads.
Speaker 3: So that's what we practice, not trying to go out
Speaker 3: and address every foot of airspace in those places because
Speaker 3: that's impossible. And all the different minds, I mean, if
Speaker 3: it's a full house in a big place, it's it
Speaker 3: can be up to twenty thousand different minds you know
Speaker 3: that are out there. Yeah, and how do you talk
Speaker 3: to that? So you can't. You just have to get
Speaker 3: out there and be completely inside the music and inside
Speaker 3: the lyrics and be there, really mean what you say,
Speaker 3: be present, be authentic, be all the way there. You know,
Speaker 3: that's the only thing you can do.
Speaker 2: When you're performing. Do you tend to lock eyes with
Speaker 2: certain people in the crowd or do you find yourself
Speaker 2: just looking past the audience?
Speaker 3: Well, I don't make an effort to lock eyes with
Speaker 3: any one person because they think that you mean something
Speaker 3: by it. You know, maybe you do, maybe you do
Speaker 3: mean so thing by it. But I tend to be
Speaker 3: in my head sort of and fluid inside of this
Speaker 3: big sound pool that we're creating.
Speaker 2: It sounds awesome.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll look out and I'll look at the
Speaker 3: whole panorama. Yeah, if they've got things lit or if
Speaker 3: it's all twinkle here or something that's pretty amazing to
Speaker 3: see from the stage.
Speaker 2: Heart's getting ready to celebrate your fiftieth anniversary. You've seen
Speaker 2: the crowds change so much over the years, and now
Speaker 2: everybody has the cell phone. Yeah, does that change the
Speaker 2: performance for you? The energy of the crowd?
Speaker 3: It does change things, I gotta say, especially when they
Speaker 3: come up to the front of the stage and they
Speaker 3: turn around so that you're in the backdrop and they
Speaker 3: want to take a selfie with you as a background,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, that's that's really distracting, you know,
Speaker 3: because you just want to sort of jump out of
Speaker 3: the way, you know, because it's it's yeah, I'm not
Speaker 3: a backdrop, you know. But I mean, to be fair,
Speaker 3: it's a big night for them and they want to
Speaker 3: preserve some little memory of it, so right, why not
Speaker 3: let them have it.
Speaker 2: I think I've read that you have an extensive vocal
Speaker 2: warm up before you go on stage. Can you share
Speaker 2: some of that with us? What you do to get ready?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I warm up for about forty five minutes to
Speaker 3: an hour, and I used to try and do classical
Speaker 3: like ruin scales and stuff like the vocal coaches teach
Speaker 3: you to do. But I couldn't sustain that. It's just
Speaker 3: too boring. So I finally found out that my throat
Speaker 3: and soul are just as warmed up if I find
Speaker 3: a couple of records that I love and just sing
Speaker 3: along with the whole thing. Like for a while last
Speaker 3: year I was doing Elton John Captain Fantastic in the
Speaker 3: Brown Dirt Cowboy, just sing along with the whole record
Speaker 3: every song, and then if there's still some more time,
Speaker 3: find another one. Sing along with that. Wow and lo
Speaker 3: and behold, your throat is warmed up. It's not just
Speaker 3: your throat, it's your whole ability to just be open,
Speaker 3: you know, your soul.
Speaker 2: When did you realize that you had such a powerful voice.
Speaker 3: I've never thought it was that powerful myself, except for
Speaker 3: a few moments in a few of the songs like
Speaker 3: Crazy and You that are high and sustained notes. And
Speaker 3: it's different when you hit a note and just hold it,
Speaker 3: then if you hit a high note and just go
Speaker 3: all squirrely all over the place. And I've never been
Speaker 3: much one for vocal gymnastics.
Speaker 2: They're like Mariah Carey runs right.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like to sing them just simple. So when
Speaker 3: I realized I could do that I thought, most people
Speaker 3: don't do this this way, so I must have something.
Speaker 3: But I don't sit around on my some kind of
Speaker 3: laurels going wow, you sure have a strong voice. I
Speaker 3: think my kids would tell you that I have a
Speaker 3: strong voice. Or people at a birthday party when I
Speaker 3: sing Happy Birthday along with the crowd.
Speaker 2: Oh, I would love to hear that. Wow, So that's fascinating.
Speaker 2: You don't think you have a strong voice.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean there's some mighty fine singers out there. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Who are some of your favorite singers right now?
Speaker 3: Well, I always loved Uton. I think he in the
Speaker 3: early days. He was one of the people who influenced
Speaker 3: me the most. Right now, I would think that Billie Eilish.
Speaker 3: I love the way she sings. I mean it's so
Speaker 3: refined and so restrained and just calm, you know, beautiful. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so that I admire that, I really do.
Speaker 2: Have you tried to do something like that just to
Speaker 2: play around and see how it would sound.
Speaker 3: It's all in the song. Yeah, if you hit the
Speaker 3: right song that has that in it, then you can
Speaker 3: do it. I think. Yeah. And she and her brother,
Speaker 3: I mean the stuff they write kill her stuff. I
Speaker 3: love to see them at these big awards shows, just
Speaker 3: cleaning up, you know, because it's so you know, anti establishment,
Speaker 3: you think so. Yeah, I mean, here she comes wearing
Speaker 3: this total alternative outfit whatever it is, whichever thing she's at,
Speaker 3: and she looks beautiful. Her brother is just there to
Speaker 3: support her. They're just you can tell that they're friends, yeah,
Speaker 3: and that they're they're really tight, you know. I love that.
Speaker 2: I listen to you and Nancy's audiobook Kicking and Dreaming
Speaker 2: and was just sort of amazed at how strong the
Speaker 2: family mythology is in your family, and it really seems
Speaker 2: like you kept going back to the early days of
Speaker 2: your family and the stories that were shared in your
Speaker 2: families when it came to songwriting and decisions you made
Speaker 2: in your life. And at one point you were talking
Speaker 2: about this letter that your dad wrote to your mom
Speaker 2: where he was basically proposing to her, and how that
Speaker 2: was like the single most foundational work that sort of
Speaker 2: kept inspiring your songwriting.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Do you still feel that influence now?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll always feel influenced by both my parents because
Speaker 3: they were liberal, they were bohemian, they were romantic, and
Speaker 3: they were smart. You know, they were both intellectuals and
Speaker 3: they managed to find each other, you know, and their
Speaker 3: love of poetry and literature really inspires all my songwriting,
Speaker 3: and I think Nancy's too. Were both we're both pretty romantic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you left home, when you left the Seattle area,
Speaker 2: you moved to Canada, right when Heart was hocus focused,
Speaker 2: before the band was even called Heart, and you were
Speaker 2: living with your first boyfriend, your first love. Did that
Speaker 2: live up to this mythology in your mind of your parents'
Speaker 2: bond and their romantic love.
Speaker 3: Boy, Yeah, it sure did at the beginning. Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: just like all love affairs, you know, at the very start,
Speaker 3: it's so as Joni Mitchell says, it's so righteous at
Speaker 3: the start, you know, yeah, and just powerful and beautiful.
Speaker 3: But you're young, and your expectation makes it be just
Speaker 3: that makes it be mythology. It can't survive in the
Speaker 3: real world, you know, it has to. It has to
Speaker 3: break down because it's too perfect and that's not what
Speaker 3: this world is like and what people are like. Especially
Speaker 3: when you fall in love with somebody, you idealize them
Speaker 3: to the point where they're just gonna do everything for you,
Speaker 3: They're going to be your everything. And the minute you
Speaker 3: do that that's when it starts to break down. I think, Yeah,
Speaker 3: you got to let people have space, give them the
Speaker 3: right to be human and the right to be imperfect
Speaker 3: and not do everything for you.
Speaker 2: When you wrote Magic Man about that relationship, were you
Speaker 2: ever embarrassed or did you find yourself holding back because
Speaker 2: you didn't want your mom to see things that might
Speaker 2: have been a little bit scandalous at the time.
Speaker 3: Well, holding back. I think that leaving home and running
Speaker 3: off to another country with a man was about was
Speaker 3: not holding back. But yeah, you know, like I didn't
Speaker 3: rub it in her face that suddenly I was just
Speaker 3: off sleeping with somebody, right, And she was, for all
Speaker 3: her romanticism and love she had for our father, she
Speaker 3: was pretty victorian when it came to sex and stuff.
Speaker 3: So that was not something that went down easy between us.
Speaker 3: She just didn't want to think that I was up
Speaker 3: there blowing it. And that was in the pre Roe v.
Speaker 3: Wade days before it was legalized. We're back there now.
Speaker 3: But so mothers were extremely fearful of their daughter's running
Speaker 3: off and getting into wild sexual relationships and ending up pregnant,
Speaker 3: not knowing what to do about it, and you know,
Speaker 3: basically their lives being ruled by that fact from then on.
Speaker 2: Do you remember having conversations with your mom about that
Speaker 2: where she was warning you, like, look, this is what
Speaker 2: could happen to your life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she put it differently, though she couched it more
Speaker 3: in h well, this is not dignified. You know. She
Speaker 3: didn't want to have the talk and get all clinical
Speaker 3: and everything. She didn't really want to do that, but
Speaker 3: she found a way to do it. And it was well,
Speaker 3: if you just go up there and become barefoot and pregnant,
Speaker 3: you know, that's like pretty trailer park trash. Oh and
Speaker 3: I guess that wasn't enough to scare me off.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting because some of the lyrics
Speaker 2: and magic Man you it's almost like you're trying to
Speaker 2: convince your mom about how wonderful this guy is. You know,
Speaker 2: he's a magic man Mama.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well we had many phone calls where she I
Speaker 3: was up in Canada in the cottage with him, and
Speaker 3: she wanted me to come home. She's, yeah, you got
Speaker 3: to come home. You're too young for this. You know.
Speaker 3: I was at nineteen, so I was old enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was so surprised to too. And maybe it's
Speaker 2: not surprising for the time. But while you were in
Speaker 2: Hocus Pocus, you were the front person in the band.
Speaker 2: After gigs, you would come home the band was all
Speaker 2: living together. You would come home and cook everybody dinner
Speaker 2: and do all the laundry and do all the like
Speaker 2: homemaking duties.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that didn't last that long. I mean, at first
Speaker 3: I thought how how sweet it was to wash the
Speaker 3: sheets and hang them outside in the fresh air so
Speaker 3: that and then put them back on the bed, you know,
Speaker 3: and try and make a dinner out of some brown
Speaker 3: rice and a couple of onions, you know. But and
Speaker 3: for a while we lived up there in a cabin,
Speaker 3: a cottage thing with Roger Fisher and his wife who
Speaker 3: had just gotten married and received for a wedding gift
Speaker 3: of fifty pounds sack of brown rice, which we all
Speaker 3: ended up living on because we didn't have any money
Speaker 3: when we were putting the band together. So we just
Speaker 3: date brown rice and drank water and called it the
Speaker 3: Georgia Shawa brown rice diet, you know.
Speaker 2: And you can do that back then when you're twenty, yeah,
Speaker 2: and everybody's fine with it, that's right. And that was
Speaker 2: before Nancy joined the band, Yes.
Speaker 3: She joined later in nineteen about seventy three.
Speaker 1: We have to take a quick break, and then we're
Speaker 1: back with more from Anne Wilson and Lea Rose. We're
Speaker 1: back with Lea Rose and Anne Wilson.
Speaker 2: How did the band change for you when Nancy joined?
Speaker 3: Well, I was really glad because I felt that art
Speaker 3: had gone about as far as it could go. We
Speaker 3: didn't have a very good vocal section. I mean, we
Speaker 3: didn't have a very good ability at harmony singing, and
Speaker 3: we did have an acoustic guitar player, so we were
Speaker 3: stuck doing rock and roll songs, you know, like Johnny
Speaker 3: be Good and Walking the Dog and all that kind
Speaker 3: of stuff that the guys did, and there was kind
Speaker 3: of almost a whole part of the soul of the band.
Speaker 3: It was missing for me because I had come from
Speaker 3: doing folk groups with Nancy, where we did heavy harmonies
Speaker 3: and we both played acoustic guitars, and that's so when
Speaker 3: she joined, she brought that element. She's a fantastic harmony
Speaker 3: singer and a great acoustic player. So all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: heart had a heart, you know, and we just got
Speaker 3: kind of what Led Zeppelin had, which was it can
Speaker 3: go as rock as you want, but it can also
Speaker 3: go as tender as you want down at the very center. Yes,
Speaker 3: and that was really satisfying to me.
Speaker 2: Early on you talked about doing you have sort of
Speaker 2: like a mini led Zeppelin cover section in your shows,
Speaker 2: and one night led Zeppelin actually came and saw you play.
Speaker 3: Well, they didn't stop and watch us, They just walked
Speaker 3: through the room.
Speaker 2: Did you see them walking through?
Speaker 3: Yeah? It was a club in Vancouver called oil Can
Speaker 3: Harry's and they had a big showroom and then they
Speaker 3: had a big party room upstairs, and so we saw
Speaker 3: them kind of trooping through after their concert at the arena.
Speaker 3: You know, when they're done with the Glory gig, they
Speaker 3: come and have a party upstairs and oil Cans and yeah,
Speaker 3: we saw them and we all just about lost it.
Speaker 2: I mean, I imagine they just looked like the sexiest
Speaker 2: rock stars on the planet. Oh yeah, yeah. And then
Speaker 2: the full circle moment of having performed at the Kennedy
Speaker 2: Center for when led Zeppelin was getting honored. How did
Speaker 2: you prepare for that show mentally? Was that completely intimidating
Speaker 2: to you or are you able to just sort of
Speaker 2: switch into show mode and go out there and do
Speaker 2: your thing with full confidence.
Speaker 3: I think that that night I needed an extra measure
Speaker 3: of meditative calmness because I didn't want to go out
Speaker 3: there and start to think about it. You know, that's
Speaker 3: what you really don't want to do. Not only was
Speaker 3: led Zeppelin in the audience, but the you know, the
Speaker 3: President and first Lady, and the audience was just packed
Speaker 3: with all these different luminaries and famous people of all ILKs.
Speaker 3: So I just remember saying to Nancy, let's just pretend
Speaker 3: like we have bowls of water in our heads and
Speaker 3: we have to walk out there without spilling a drop
Speaker 3: and just concentrate on the water on the song, right,
Speaker 3: and nothing else, just be in the song. And so
Speaker 3: we did, and it turned out to be a fun
Speaker 3: experience and one that went really smooth, and nothing went wrong,
Speaker 3: and it was great because you know, after all, what
Speaker 3: could possibly go wrong in a situation like that.
Speaker 2: It's such an emotional performance, and the footage after where
Speaker 2: you see you know, Robert Plant and the band, they're
Speaker 2: sitting there with tears streaming down their face, and then
Speaker 2: you see Barack and Michelle Obama sitting there and John
Speaker 2: Bonham's son is playing with you all on drums. It's
Speaker 2: just so incredibly moving. Yeah, what a feat. It's beautiful,
Speaker 2: beautiful performance. You sounded incredible.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was. It was quite an experience,
Speaker 3: never to be forgotten.
Speaker 2: I read at one point that you opened for the
Speaker 2: bee Gees.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was real early.
Speaker 2: Did you have any sort of interaction with them another
Speaker 2: family band?
Speaker 3: I don't think at that point we got to interact
Speaker 3: with them. At that point we were pretty much a
Speaker 3: little cabaret band in Canada, and the Begs were doing
Speaker 3: across Canada tour and they needed an opener and we'd
Speaker 3: only done one opening show before that for Rod Stewart,
Speaker 3: so we were by no means ready for that kind
Speaker 3: of exposure, but we got up and did it. You know.
Speaker 3: I was always a huge Beg's fan. All their different
Speaker 3: eras and their psychedelic era and even the disco time
Speaker 3: and all that. I just thought it was all great.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was really fun standing on this side
Speaker 3: of the stage and listening to them live after we
Speaker 3: were done, you know.
Speaker 2: And so that was already after the first album was.
Speaker 3: Out, Yes, pretty soon after the first album was out.
Speaker 2: What do you remember about recording that first album? Do
Speaker 2: any of the session and stand out in your memory.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just remember going from zero, from knowing nothing,
Speaker 3: absolutely nothing about being in the studio, to Mike Flicker,
Speaker 3: who was our first producer, mentoring me to be able
Speaker 3: to sing a lead vocal on the songs, Like the
Speaker 3: first one I ever sang was Crazy on You, and
Speaker 3: we were actually doing Crazy on You in clubs at
Speaker 3: that point, and Magic Man. We hadn't written Barracoutie yet,
Speaker 3: but those two other songs we would, you know, we'd
Speaker 3: play our normal club set and then we'd sneak Crazy
Speaker 3: on You in and we'd sneak Magic Men in and
Speaker 3: see what the audience did. And at first they were
Speaker 3: kind of like what, And then they never heard that
Speaker 3: song before, so they were used to let Zeppelin and
Speaker 3: Elton John and the other stuff.
Speaker 2: We were playing the stuff they know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then by bit they started to respond to
Speaker 3: those two songs live till it happened that they were
Speaker 3: actually coming unglued. They were applauding and standing up and
Speaker 3: liking those. So we pulled him out to when we
Speaker 3: went and opened for the Bechis and Rod Stewart, we
Speaker 3: actually dared to play our original.
Speaker 2: Stuff, and didn't you get a huge reaction when you
Speaker 2: opened for Rod Stuart because it had been on the
Speaker 2: radio at that point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't really know it. The communications in those
Speaker 3: days were not like they are now, where you know
Speaker 3: everything that goes on with your record every minute, you know,
Speaker 3: and we didn't really understand that dreamboat And he was
Speaker 3: being played in Montreal by this disc jockey named Doug Pringle.
Speaker 3: He believed in us and he played the record. So
Speaker 3: when we got to Montreal opening for Rod Stewart, we
Speaker 3: walked out on stage to a house full of lip
Speaker 3: matches because they knew our recorda we were just this
Speaker 3: little opener. But wow, you know. So that was just
Speaker 3: a way that we started out in Canada.
Speaker 2: Did that motivate you to want to go in and
Speaker 2: immediately start writing more songs and continue with that specific
Speaker 2: sound of the songs that were doing well at the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we wanted to just go ahead and keep on writing,
Speaker 3: you know. And just the experience of writing the first
Speaker 3: two songs was so great and just so much fun
Speaker 3: that we just wanted to keep going. And some of
Speaker 3: the songs we wrote were more rock, but then there
Speaker 3: were a whole bunch of songs on Dreabo Eddie like
Speaker 3: Dreamboat Eddie and love Me Like Music, I'll be your song,
Speaker 3: how deep it goes, Soul of the Sea, ones that
Speaker 3: are really soft at the middle. So it's a mixed
Speaker 3: bag on that record. Nobody could really put their finger
Speaker 3: on what we were going to be, whether it was
Speaker 3: going to be a rock band or what.
Speaker 2: Did you like that sort of keeping people guessing or
Speaker 2: was that more like you didn't know what you guys were.
Speaker 3: We didn't know. We were just formulating, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which album would you say, out of your entire
Speaker 2: discography is the most true to what you think the
Speaker 2: band does best.
Speaker 3: Maybe a Little Queen because it has Right of Me,
Speaker 3: go On Cry and Barracuda, and it's got good ballads
Speaker 3: and it's got good gas rockers, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you remember where the photograph for the cover
Speaker 2: of Little Queen was taken?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was taken in Elesion Park in LA and
Speaker 3: they took us to Western Costumers and got the gypsy clothes.
Speaker 3: In fact, I was wearing my own clothes that day,
Speaker 3: but everybody else was dressed up like a gypsy and
Speaker 3: rented a gypsy painted wagon and a goat and a
Speaker 3: horse and all all this stuff and set up a scene.
Speaker 2: What were you listening to at that time? So that
Speaker 2: came out in seventy seven? What was on the radio?
Speaker 2: What were you into?
Speaker 3: Wow? Seventy seven, still listening to Elton John, listening to
Speaker 3: Steely Dan, listening to Moody Blues and Rolling Stones. It's
Speaker 3: all kinds of cool things. You know.
Speaker 2: You grew up having hoot Nanny's in your house, playing
Speaker 2: instruments with family, singing songs, and then later when you
Speaker 2: lived in Seattle, you would have these big parties and
Speaker 2: have a lot of the people who became like the
Speaker 2: all stars of the grunge movement over and just jam
Speaker 2: and have fun and play. Around that time in the seventies,
Speaker 2: were you doing anything like that playing with other musicians.
Speaker 3: We were mostly playing with the members of the band
Speaker 3: up in Canada. We didn't know a whole lot of
Speaker 3: other musicians. It was different back then. We were kind
Speaker 3: of we were the party and we would have more
Speaker 3: fun just jamming together on stage. Off stage, it really
Speaker 3: didn't matter. We've jam in the living room and then
Speaker 3: back up and go out to the club and jam there.
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, And at that point, so the late
Speaker 2: seventies did you foresee a long career for the band
Speaker 2: or was it sort of you know, day by day?
Speaker 2: How are you thinking about the band's future.
Speaker 3: Oh, we definitely had a five year plan. I mean,
Speaker 3: our manager would not let us get out of bed
Speaker 3: without a five year plan. But it was good because
Speaker 3: it made sense. It wasn't just ambition. It was more about, Okay,
Speaker 3: we've gone this far. Now we've got these songs, what
Speaker 3: else can we make? You know, We've got Crazy on you,
Speaker 3: We've got Barracuda, We've got all these songs that are great.
Speaker 3: Now what you know?
Speaker 2: What did you do to stir up ideas for inspiration
Speaker 2: for writing songs once those big hits were out and established?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think that many of our songs start from the music,
Speaker 3: and then once I, Nancy and I are just me
Speaker 3: hear the music, it suggests something and then we start
Speaker 3: writing words and then suddenly, lo and behold, you have
Speaker 3: a song.
Speaker 2: You know, do you prefer to be by yourself at
Speaker 2: that point or do you like to be with sitting
Speaker 2: with the other musicians writing words.
Speaker 3: I like to be by myself, no doubt about it.
Speaker 3: But jamming you have to be with other people. You
Speaker 3: have your ideas and they have their ideas and how
Speaker 3: they mix and you spark ideas off each other and
Speaker 3: you can tell when you hit on something and it's great.
Speaker 2: Would people in the band give you feedback on your lyrics,
Speaker 2: say like, ah, maybe this line should be tweaked.
Speaker 3: A little bit occasionally.
Speaker 2: How would you take that as a writer?
Speaker 3: Well, if they did that, I would say, and what
Speaker 3: would you put in its place? And if they had
Speaker 3: a good suggestion, I go, okay, we'll use that. Maybe.
Speaker 3: If they didn't have a good suggestion, I'd say shut up,
Speaker 3: not literally shut up, but just we'll keep it my
Speaker 3: way until you think it's something better. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, after the first initial band disbanded, people left and
Speaker 2: there was a new iteration of the group. Was that
Speaker 2: really heartbreaking for you or did you have hope that
Speaker 2: we can create something new and move on.
Speaker 3: It's hard to describe what it was like when that
Speaker 3: lineup disbanded, other than to say that we couldn't get
Speaker 3: along anymore and things got really difficult between us. You know.
Speaker 3: It seemed like the that made heart unusual, which was
Speaker 3: men and women working together as equals, was breaking down,
Speaker 3: and that very thing was the thing that was driving
Speaker 3: us apart from each other. We would just squabble and
Speaker 3: write down gender lines. It would just be really difficult,
Speaker 3: the men gossiping about the girls and the girls gossiping
Speaker 3: about the men. And it didn't help that, you know,
Speaker 3: Nancy and I never looked that fondly on the whole
Speaker 3: world of groupies and having to explain to the band wives, no,
Speaker 3: nothing goes on out there, you know, lie to them
Speaker 3: all the time, and it just got to be weird.
Speaker 2: You know, when you reformulated the band and then bring
Speaker 2: in more men, did it feel like things are going
Speaker 2: to end up differently this time or did it seem
Speaker 2: like maybe it'll kind of play out in the same way.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I always go into every new iteration of
Speaker 3: the band totally optimist, because the world is full of
Speaker 3: good people and just because you play out your relationship
Speaker 3: with some people doesn't mean you don't have one with others.
Speaker 3: And we've been really fortunate to play with some great
Speaker 3: musicians over the years, men and women. And it's not
Speaker 3: really important to us, to me or to Nancy and
Speaker 3: I which gender it is. It really isn't. It's just
Speaker 3: who can do the job, who's a great player, who's
Speaker 3: a great singer, who's a great writer. And we worked
Speaker 3: with Holly Knight and Debbie Cheer and Denny Carmassi on drums,
Speaker 3: and it's just some amazing players. But we never again
Speaker 3: encountered the same kind of emotional hardship we did with
Speaker 3: that first lineup. I think it was because we all
Speaker 3: started out we were poor and destitute, and then we
Speaker 3: had all the success and there was all this money
Speaker 3: that came in, and money change everything, you know, and
Speaker 3: everybody gets kind of different.
Speaker 2: Do you think they start to resent you because you
Speaker 2: were the front person and getting a lot of attention
Speaker 2: and Nancy and you are getting a lot of attention.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were some of that because they were at
Speaker 3: the men and the band were out there working just
Speaker 3: as hard as us and putting their bodies on the
Speaker 3: line too. But yet whenever we did an interview, Nancy
Speaker 3: and I were the only ones that got talked to
Speaker 3: and got all the attention, you know. And there's nothing
Speaker 3: much that we could do about it. It's just how
Speaker 3: it was. And it really hurt the men's feelings and
Speaker 3: made them angry. So I don't blame them at all.
Speaker 2: Really, Yeah, it's understandable.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Are you still in touch with the old members from
Speaker 2: the original line up?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we saw him just a couple months ago when
Speaker 3: we played in Seattle. They all showed up super cool. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then moving in to the eighties, that was when
Speaker 2: you started the record label, when you signed to Capitol
Speaker 2: started bringing in professional songwriters. Yes, how was that for
Speaker 2: you as a songwriter and as somebody who had been
Speaker 2: the face of this band for so long?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I went back and forth on it. It depended
Speaker 3: on the song. For instance, I thought These Dreams was
Speaker 3: a really great song, just a beautiful song that fit
Speaker 3: Nancy's voice just perfect. It was the ideal marriage, you know.
Speaker 3: But some of the other songs that came our way
Speaker 3: that we did during the eighties, I thought didn't have
Speaker 3: much substance and were pretty calculated. They were just different
Speaker 3: versions of what was being played on the radio right already.
Speaker 3: And uh, I wasn't that fond of that, because you know,
Speaker 3: I was there at the beginning when we had all
Speaker 3: this this beautiful idealism about being poets and all that.
Speaker 2: Are you glad now looking back that you did it
Speaker 2: even though you were fundamentally opposed to it at certain times?
Speaker 2: About what you were singing. Are you glad you tried
Speaker 2: it and stuck with it?
Speaker 3: Sure? Yeah. It was a good experience and it did
Speaker 3: teach me a lot about songwriting, just the basic lesson
Speaker 3: of you don't tax people's attention span. You just don't
Speaker 3: get all selfish and just go, well, this is my vision,
Speaker 3: Like you want to talk directly to them, you know,
Speaker 3: and connect with them. That's what a lot of those
Speaker 3: songs in the eighties had. It was a good listen.
Speaker 2: I love those songs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, some of them are cool.
Speaker 2: Super cool, and I bet the crowd loves them when
Speaker 2: you play them live.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like we used to do at Lisa del Bello
Speaker 3: song called Wait for an Answer that moves through five
Speaker 3: keys and everything, and it's just amazingly powerful song. And
Speaker 3: that taught me so much about how you can have
Speaker 3: a very simple idea and just repeat it only take
Speaker 3: it up a key and then up another key, up
Speaker 3: another key, and then it just changes. Meaning every time
Speaker 3: you go up with these dreams.
Speaker 2: Is that the song that you said you can't sing
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, there's something about that song that you've
Speaker 2: tried it in karaoke and you can't sing it.
Speaker 3: I don't sound that good on these dreams. The times
Speaker 3: I've tried it at karaoke. Yeah, it's just there's something
Speaker 3: about it. It's I feel awkward singing it and I
Speaker 3: sound awkward. That's Nancy's song.
Speaker 2: Do you still not sing all I want to do?
Speaker 2: We haven't done that for a long time. Is it
Speaker 2: going to come back out?
Speaker 3: I don't think so. There's a lot cooler stuff that
Speaker 3: we can bring out than that.
Speaker 2: That song had a big influence on my It was
Speaker 2: very eye opening as a younger.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just not in a very cool way. But
Speaker 3: now I'm being my mother. You know, that's my mother talking.
Speaker 1: We have to take another quick break and then we'll
Speaker 1: be back with more from Leo Rose and Anne Wilson.
Speaker 1: We're back with the rest of Leo Rose's conversation with
Speaker 1: Anne Wilson.
Speaker 2: In your book, you talked about some of the compromises
Speaker 2: you made in the eighties were a devil's bargain, which
Speaker 2: you were wearing, the types of songs you were performing.
Speaker 2: How did you manage to push past that era?
Speaker 3: Oh? You just live one breath after another, you know,
Speaker 3: you just keep on going. And I always believed in heart,
Speaker 3: I always believe that we would emerge from that, and
Speaker 3: that we would come up again and be writing our
Speaker 3: own type of music about the things we wanted to
Speaker 3: write about, and that people would like them, maybe not
Speaker 3: on the same massive level, but on a level.
Speaker 2: Does that matter to you if as someone who as
Speaker 2: a musician has experienced both the massive arena level and
Speaker 2: then also you do a lot of small shows that
Speaker 2: are very intimate as a songwriter, as a musician, as
Speaker 2: a singer, does it matter to you? Or is all
Speaker 2: that matters is just performing?
Speaker 3: When I'm doing it, It's all that matters is just
Speaker 3: the performing. I think other people care more about the
Speaker 3: level of success than I do. You know, I've been
Speaker 3: accused of not caring enough about writing commercial songs, and
Speaker 3: I admit I'm guilty. I just want to write lovely songs.
Speaker 3: I want to write cool stuffs.
Speaker 2: Are you writing right now?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I am, And I'm just about to go down
Speaker 3: to Nashville and hang out with the Trip Sitters and
Speaker 3: write some more songs.
Speaker 2: What about the love Mongers? Are they ever going to
Speaker 2: get back together?
Speaker 3: Oh? Love Mongers? Yeah? Now that was a vocal group. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that was some gorgeous vocals. I don't know, I hope.
Speaker 3: So that was a fun band. It was really fun.
Speaker 2: So that was Nancy, yourself and your old friend Sue.
Speaker 3: Uh huh, and our other friend Frank Cox. Frank has
Speaker 3: a beautiful tenor voice, and I was playing bass and singing.
Speaker 3: So we had really a good three part harmonies and
Speaker 3: we could do whatever we wanted. We didn't do much
Speaker 3: heart stuff. We used the Love Mongers as an escape
Speaker 3: from heart for a while. Just after the eighties. We
Speaker 3: just we went into lovemngerland for a while and just
Speaker 3: did whatever we wanted.
Speaker 2: Is that around the time that you were back in
Speaker 2: Seattle and starting to hang out with some of the
Speaker 2: musicians that were coming up, And.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and oddly enough, a lot of those musicians that
Speaker 3: were part of the Seattle community then loved the Lovemongers
Speaker 3: and we loved them, and we'd all show up at
Speaker 3: each other's shows and it didn't matter that it was
Speaker 3: at this little club that it really didn't matter. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was just about the music and about playing camaraderie.
Speaker 2: You've said that musicians from Seattle aren't just going to
Speaker 2: be nice about a song because you're sitting there playing it.
Speaker 2: They're really honest about their feedback yes, they are. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Can you remember a time where you were had an
Speaker 2: interaction with a Seattle musician and you're just like, oh yeah.
Speaker 3: Jerry Cantrell, he told me on a number of occasions
Speaker 3: it was one of the ballads, the more commercial ballads
Speaker 3: from the eighties. Maybe it was all I want to do.
Speaker 3: But he just said to me, that is such bullshit.
Speaker 3: That is such bullshit now, Barracuda, That's great, that's the shit,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: And you're like, I agree with you, I agree with you.
Speaker 2: When everybody would come over to your house and play
Speaker 2: at those parties, what would you how does that happen?
Speaker 2: Like people start out drinking and then eventually people pick
Speaker 2: up instruments and are just playing songs or what was
Speaker 2: this scene?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: Well, I was no fool. I would always have in
Speaker 3: my living room. I'd have guitars laying around casually, you know,
Speaker 3: laying and a piano and a couple of little amps.
Speaker 3: Usually it would happen after somebody's concert and everyone would
Speaker 3: show up for the concert, and then whoever was free
Speaker 3: afterward would show up at my house and they'd all
Speaker 3: come in and start drinking beers and smoking Ciggi's and
Speaker 3: sitting up on my counters and just then, pretty soon
Speaker 3: somebody had start to blay, what do you remember being
Speaker 3: played then? And who do you remember being there? I
Speaker 3: remember one time John Waits was there, Lane Stay the Pearl,
Speaker 3: Jam guys, the Artist's spoon man, Chris Cornell and Kim
Speaker 3: Thale and oh them.
Speaker 2: What was it like singing with Chris Cornell?
Speaker 3: Beautiful? He's like one of those naturals, like he comes
Speaker 3: from a musical family too. And not only did I
Speaker 3: know Chris, I knew his sister Maggie, who's a great
Speaker 3: singer too, So it was easy as pie to sing
Speaker 3: with chris beautiful voice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, was there ever any stories about Jimmy Hendrix, another
Speaker 2: Seattle musician, Like was he part of the Laura at all?
Speaker 3: I never met Jimmy myself, but I did go and
Speaker 3: poke my head into Jimmy's apartment one time.
Speaker 2: Oh how did that happen?
Speaker 3: When he lived in Seattle, when he was just a
Speaker 3: young guy before he blew the coop? You know. Yeah,
Speaker 3: just I was going to art college and somebody wanted
Speaker 3: to go pick up some weed or something, and we
Speaker 3: stopped at this little apartment and they went look around
Speaker 3: this is a famous apartment, you know. I mean the
Speaker 3: people who were living there then were not Jimmy. But
Speaker 3: look around. This place has much vibe, you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: trying to feel the.
Speaker 2: Vibe, Jimmy, that's so cool. What stands out in your
Speaker 2: mind when you think about the seventies or eighties? What
Speaker 2: was the biggest rock star moment that you had. Once
Speaker 2: the band started to pick up notoriety, we looked at
Speaker 2: maybe looked at Nancy, like, whoa, this is big time.
Speaker 3: As time goes along, you meet just about everybody. They
Speaker 3: usually end up just being people, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 3: they're disappointing. Meant a lot of cool people and some
Speaker 3: who yes, we're just folks, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: You think they're gonna be like so grand and everything,
Speaker 3: and then they're just like, hey, Hi, how are you.
Speaker 2: Well. I know that there was stories about you hanging
Speaker 2: out with Stevie Nicks. That's always seemed like.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, she jumped on her plane for a few days.
Speaker 3: We had a number one record, that's what it was.
Speaker 3: That was The Magnetism, and we were playing in San Francisco.
Speaker 3: She came out to the show and got up on
Speaker 3: stage with us and with Grace Slick to sing on
Speaker 3: what About Love? And after the show she said, gee,
Speaker 3: I kind of hate to say goodbye to you guys.
Speaker 3: Where are you going next? And they said, well, we're
Speaker 3: going to Phoenix, And it just so happened that Stevie
Speaker 3: has another house in Phoenix. So she got on our
Speaker 3: plane the next day and we all went out to
Speaker 3: Phoenix and went to her house and hung out after
Speaker 3: our show. And that's an eye opener. It's cool because
Speaker 3: she's she's everything she says. I mean she's a white witch.
Speaker 3: I mean she's definitely got her her self image down
Speaker 3: and together. She's very smart, super creative.
Speaker 2: Did you get to sing with her at all?
Speaker 3: Just when she got up on stage with us?
Speaker 2: Okay, so when you're hanging out, you didn't sit around singing, And.
Speaker 3: No, we mostly listen to each other talk. I don't know.
Speaker 3: You don't have that much to say really that you
Speaker 3: don't all feel as a group because you are all
Speaker 3: going through the same experiences.
Speaker 2: How is that for you coming home in between stops
Speaker 2: on tour, when you would go home and see your
Speaker 2: parents and see your older sister Lynn, was it hard
Speaker 2: to relate to them and sort of come down from
Speaker 2: being on the road.
Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone tells you that you've changed and that you're
Speaker 3: faking it, you're not the same person, and you know,
Speaker 3: like everyone's always really disappointed in you because you're living
Speaker 3: on this big, inflated level. But that's how it gets.
Speaker 3: When you're out on those big doors like that, you
Speaker 3: live in a bubble of safety and security and you're
Speaker 3: protected from people just because, for one, you don't want
Speaker 3: to get sick, and for two, some people can be dangerous,
Speaker 3: so you have to have protection from all of that,
Speaker 3: you know, And you get used to it and you
Speaker 3: go home and you're kind of like, don't come near me,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I imagine you need a couple of weeks to
Speaker 2: kind of reformulate.
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, does that take.
Speaker 2: A lot of mental preparation for you to be removed
Speaker 2: from your space, from your home and know you'll be
Speaker 2: sort of a nomad.
Speaker 3: Takes a lot of relaxation out there. That's the main
Speaker 3: thing for me is just to relax enough to have
Speaker 3: fun with it and not get all freaked out, you
Speaker 3: know about not being home and being tired or whatever.
Speaker 3: Like the things that are hard about touring, which is
Speaker 3: the travel.
Speaker 2: Are you traveling on buses mostly when you're in the.
Speaker 3: US, Yes, on buses. However, over in Europe they don't
Speaker 3: do that anymore because of the European Union has broken up,
Speaker 3: so you can't just go from country to country on
Speaker 3: a bus. You have to go through customs and all that.
Speaker 3: The bus can't leave the country, you know, So it's
Speaker 3: much more complex now over there.
Speaker 2: After taking the five year break from touring with Heart,
Speaker 2: how did you and Nancy come back together? Why did
Speaker 2: you decide to tour now?
Speaker 3: It was time, There was no longer any reason to
Speaker 3: hold off on it. I spent pretty much all of
Speaker 3: last year touring with Trips that Are, and we did
Speaker 3: a hundred shows and seven months. I thought, well, the
Speaker 3: time is right. Let's see if we can bring back
Speaker 3: the big guns. And she was into it. We had
Speaker 3: some negotiations to do, who's going to be in the band,
Speaker 3: what type of a show we're going to do, but
Speaker 3: we we came to understandings and all that.
Speaker 2: I was looking through your Instagram and I saw that
Speaker 2: you have some scattered posts about meditation and quotes from
Speaker 2: Ramdas and other things. When you're talking about relaxation before
Speaker 2: the shows, what are some techniques that you use to
Speaker 2: get into a good headspace.
Speaker 3: I like to listen to music that is meditational, the
Speaker 3: space around a drone, you know, just calming down that way, breathing.
Speaker 3: I don't want to build up. I want to chill
Speaker 3: down before a show, so I walk out there completely
Speaker 3: calm and collected. And so those are the main things.
Speaker 3: Is just relax into it.
Speaker 2: And then when you make that transition from backstage to
Speaker 2: stepping out on stage in an arena filled with people,
Speaker 2: filled with energy, is it hard to make that switch
Speaker 2: for you?
Speaker 3: Well, it depends on how tired I am. I guess
Speaker 3: if it's a good night and everything's clicking and I
Speaker 3: feel good, then it's not hard. But if something's gone on,
Speaker 3: or you know, something's wrong within the band, like someone's
Speaker 3: sick or something like that, it's a little harder to
Speaker 3: go out there with all the engines, the resting.
Speaker 2: At what point in the tour would you say is
Speaker 2: the best to see heart Would it be in the
Speaker 2: beginning parts of the tour, the middle, the ladder.
Speaker 3: And Oh, that's impossible to say. I think it's different
Speaker 3: every tour. I don't know how this band is going
Speaker 3: to develop because It really is like a development over
Speaker 3: a tour. You go out and you're just you've fresh
Speaker 3: aut rearsal and everything's just all perfect, and then you
Speaker 3: start to open up like a big flower. Yeah, you
Speaker 3: figure out where it is that the audience and yourself
Speaker 3: really connect and grow with those places. So if you
Speaker 3: see us halfway through the tour, it's going to be
Speaker 3: different than the first couple of nights.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you have the same set list every show
Speaker 2: or does a set list change?
Speaker 3: It will change. We have a bunch of stuff worked
Speaker 3: out that we can interchange whenever we like, and sometimes
Speaker 3: we're writing so things can just be popped in. So yeah,
Speaker 3: it'll change definitely.
Speaker 2: Is there any sort of preview you can give us
Speaker 2: about what type of show it will be.
Speaker 3: It's gonna look beautiful. It is gonna be a combination
Speaker 3: of heart songs, no covers, all heart songs, and a
Speaker 3: couple of new songs, a new Nancy song and a
Speaker 3: new and song.
Speaker 2: Tell me about the last thing you've written that you're
Speaker 2: really excited about.
Speaker 3: Oh, I just got through making an album with Trips
Speaker 3: that is called Another Door and came out so good.
Speaker 3: That is what I'm really proud of. Right now, because
Speaker 3: I was the sole lyric writer on all the songs
Speaker 3: and it really taught me a lot. I learned a
Speaker 3: lot about how to do it and just when to
Speaker 3: edit myself and when not too. You know that's so important.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to
Speaker 2: talk today.
Speaker 3: Nice to talk to you. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks Dan Wilson for talking about heart storied history. You
Speaker 1: can see Anna her sister Nancy on tour with Heart
Speaker 1: through December, and you can hear our favorite songs from Heart,
Speaker 1: along with their various side projects on a playlist at
Speaker 1: broken record podcast dot com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Speaker 1: at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast, where you
Speaker 1: can find all of our new episodes. You can follow
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced
Speaker 1: and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric
Speaker 1: Sandler and Jordan mcmill. Our engineer is Ben Tollinday. Broken
Speaker 1: Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love
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Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.