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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom Never told you?

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Speaker 1: From housetop works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and this is Molly Molly. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: heard or used, perhaps those really lame jokes about guys

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Speaker 1: who are maybe grumpy in being cranky one day saying, Oh,

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Speaker 1: don't mind him, he's just on this period. No, I've

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Speaker 1: never said that. That's good. I just called them sad

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Speaker 1: bunnies today. That's way better than the male period joke.

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Speaker 1: But the reason why I bring up what is perhaps,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the way most gender jokes I

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Speaker 1: can think about off the top of my head, is

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Speaker 1: because you and I found out that, um, while you know,

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Speaker 1: men obviously don't have periods like women do, there's a

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Speaker 1: chance that men might go through menopause, right, And the

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Speaker 1: reason you brought up the period thing is just the

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Speaker 1: controversy around whether this condition exists kind of relates to

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Speaker 1: whether we try and make men and women equal in

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Speaker 1: this regard. You know, it happens in the same time

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Speaker 1: of life as women go through menopause. There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of the same symptoms. So now they've given this

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Speaker 1: new term to you know, the cranky, grouchy middle aged

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Speaker 1: men of male menopause, and it's been you know, you'll

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Speaker 1: find all these articles doesn't exist, doesn't not exist, And

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Speaker 1: that's what we're going to dive into today. Yes, can

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Speaker 1: males really go through menopause? And you might hear um.

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Speaker 1: Male menopause also refer to by a more clinical term

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Speaker 1: called andropause Andrew the root for male um and it

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Speaker 1: generally involves the same symptoms or some of the same

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Speaker 1: symptoms as a menopause in women, which can include hot

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Speaker 1: flashes and a drop in beto, moodiness, fatigue, weight gained, depression,

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Speaker 1: decreased muscle mass, and bone loss. My goodness, don't we

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Speaker 1: have lots to look forward to, Molly. Well, at least

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Speaker 1: we don't have to face the threat of a lack

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Speaker 1: of morning erections, because that's also a risk for men

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Speaker 1: going through menopause. But we do have vaginal dryness. So

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Speaker 1: tip for test it's not a contest, Christie. I'm just

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Speaker 1: giving out another symptom of signs your testosterone is love

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Speaker 1: because that is what's at the root of this idea.

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Speaker 1: Of male benopause. After the age of thirty five, man's

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Speaker 1: testosterone levels drop about one percent each year, and those

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Speaker 1: who claim that male menopause is a real thing claimed

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Speaker 1: that men's levels of this hormone gets so low that

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Speaker 1: it causes these symptoms of menopause. Now, just in case

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Speaker 1: you're wondering, in a forty year old man, the average

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Speaker 1: amount of testosterone in his blood is five hundred nanograms

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Speaker 1: for des a leader of blood. Now, if you can

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Speaker 1: envision exactly what that looks like, then bully for you,

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Speaker 1: because I can't. But just to give you an idea

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Speaker 1: of what's too low. Um, anything below three hundred nanograms

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Speaker 1: is you're you're trending into that that low test testosterone territory. Now,

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Speaker 1: the reason that I think this this diagnosis is pretty

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Speaker 1: controversial is that, as I said, it happens naturally in men.

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Speaker 1: As you ate, your testosterone drops, And the question is

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Speaker 1: whether it can drop so much that that that's what

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Speaker 1: causes these symptoms. And here's where we get into the

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Speaker 1: argument of what's correlation and what's causation. Um, But real quick,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about reasons that testosterone does drop as you age.

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Speaker 1: Are two reasons it can drop really low. One is

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Speaker 1: dysfunction and the testicles they just stopped producing as much

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Speaker 1: as they should. And one is dysfunction and the hypothalamus

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Speaker 1: where the pituitary gland is yes, and that has to

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Speaker 1: do with the testosterone secretion. Correct. Now, while we might

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Speaker 1: think of testosterone as something that you know, fuels a

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Speaker 1: man's well and women we also um our bodies also

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Speaker 1: create testosterone, but for men we might think of it

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Speaker 1: as something that motivates um, you know, moods, certain moods

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Speaker 1: and sex drive as well. But testosterone does a lot

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Speaker 1: more um to regulate different functions in the body. It's

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Speaker 1: final to a man's potency and sex drive, obviously, but

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Speaker 1: it's also important for maintaining muscle strength, healthy bones, positive mood,

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Speaker 1: and high energy. Now here's where we get back to

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Speaker 1: the correlation causation thing, Kristen, Because, as you said, let's

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Speaker 1: take low energy. For example, you come home, you've got

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Speaker 1: no energy. You probably don't exercise, You probably just grab

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Speaker 1: whatever is right there to eat for dinner. You don't

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Speaker 1: take the time to fix yourself something nice. As a result,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna gain some weight, and that in turn has

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Speaker 1: been linked to diabetes, cardiovascular disease, even death. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of researchers you're trying to figure out if treating

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Speaker 1: this low testosterone is the is the key to solving

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Speaker 1: these larger problems. But again, correlation versus causation, just diabetes

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Speaker 1: show upon a man because he's got low test astone

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Speaker 1: or was the r pre disposed to diabetes and also

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Speaker 1: happens to have low testosterone. Right, And if we're talking

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Speaker 1: about um sex drive for instance, which is one of

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Speaker 1: the main reasons I think why men seek out clinical

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Speaker 1: help for this in the first place. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're you're talking about men gaining weight, people who

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Speaker 1: are overweight, that's been linked to a lowered sex drive

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Speaker 1: as well. So they're all these all these factors, like

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Speaker 1: you said, that could be contributing to these negative symptoms.

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Speaker 1: So it's very hard to get a diagnosis of this condition.

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Speaker 1: Though it's estimated that twenty five million men in the

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Speaker 1: United States suffer from the condition. But you know, Christie,

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Speaker 1: when I was reading these articles, it was very confusing

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Speaker 1: because you'd be reading about a guy that they decided

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Speaker 1: had uh andropause or male menopause, and you'd read about

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Speaker 1: how he didn't want to have sex with his wife,

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Speaker 1: and he didn't want to move off the couch. Was moody.

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Speaker 1: He was moody and grumpy. And at first I was

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Speaker 1: just like, if this is what male menopause is, like,

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Speaker 1: I bet a lot of men are just getting on

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Speaker 1: biagra and they're or they're just getting on antidepressant and

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Speaker 1: they're not treating this whole picture. But it sounds like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it takes a while for this whole picture

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Speaker 1: of this condition to emerge because the symptoms happen so gradually.

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Speaker 1: Well it's interesting too because an article and Discovery Health

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Speaker 1: to your point, mentions that while a lot of men

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Speaker 1: who have these these symptoms will end up on indidepressants,

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Speaker 1: and it points out that if men have other symptoms

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Speaker 1: of male menopause is specifically a lack of libido, then

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Speaker 1: the end of depressant is only going to aggravate um,

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Speaker 1: aggravate that and actually make this uh possible Andrew pause

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Speaker 1: even worse. And it's I bet it's so hard to

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Speaker 1: go into a doctor to talk about this because I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing I'm I don't know if study has been done

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Speaker 1: on this, but I'm guessing the two hardest things to

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Speaker 1: talk to a doctor about our depression and low libido.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that you have to admit that there's

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Speaker 1: both in addition to all these other really undesirable symptoms.

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Speaker 1: I think that's why publicizing this condition is a good

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Speaker 1: idea because it might make a man take a holistic

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Speaker 1: look at us, at his health. But on the other side,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of researchers and doctors out there

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Speaker 1: who are cautioning us against making male menopause sort of

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Speaker 1: a default thing that men go through, because not all

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Speaker 1: men go through it. It's that's why it's another difference

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Speaker 1: between male menopause and female menopause. Yeah, because the risk

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Speaker 1: of just throwing out this um, this male menopause diagnosis

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Speaker 1: is that you know, prescription drug companies are going to

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Speaker 1: castion on a big time and uh start selling a

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Speaker 1: lot of testoster and replacement therapies, which would be the

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Speaker 1: male equivalent of hormone replacement therapies that women take when

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Speaker 1: they go through menopause. For instance, men right now who

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Speaker 1: are diagnosed with low testosterone UM. According to this article

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Speaker 1: and the Daily Mail, there are forty three thousand such

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Speaker 1: men in the UK. Just to give you an idea, UM,

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Speaker 1: and these types of treatments that they get can be

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Speaker 1: will just be testoster and treatments administered by injection every

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Speaker 1: three weeks or every ten to fourteen weeks using skin patches,

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Speaker 1: gels or plants. So basically they are just amping up

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Speaker 1: the level of testosterone in their bodies. And from the

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Speaker 1: articles that you and I have read, Molly, in some

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Speaker 1: cases men will you know, almost immediately feel the difference,

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Speaker 1: especially in terms of amped up sex drive and energy.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like after a while, UM, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: really go to build up that muscle mass and really

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Speaker 1: the kind of the anatomical changes that happen with with

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Speaker 1: the low testoster and it's more of the I guess

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Speaker 1: emotional and sexual side effects that are improved. And it

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Speaker 1: sounds like it takes quite a while to figure out

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Speaker 1: the dosing and the and the means of administering the

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Speaker 1: testosterone that really works for you. There were accounts and

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Speaker 1: some of these articles that you know, a jail really

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Speaker 1: worked for one guy, but for another the injection was awful. UM.

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Speaker 1: But there have not been a lot of studies about

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Speaker 1: the long term use of testosterone injections, and the big

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Speaker 1: red flag to every researcher out there right now is

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Speaker 1: an increased risk of prostate cancer. So in response to

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Speaker 1: these health concerns, in two thousand two, UH, the Institutes

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Speaker 1: of Medicine in the US actually conducted a twelve month

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Speaker 1: study to reassess our knowledge about the risks and benefits

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Speaker 1: of testoster and therapy and older men, because there were

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Speaker 1: an increasing amount of men who are going on, you know,

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Speaker 1: getting these gels, these uh, these testosterone injections, not really

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Speaker 1: knowing what the long term side effects would be, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of these clinical trials were taking place among younger,

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Speaker 1: healthier men, so you don't really know what the effects

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Speaker 1: might be in the cohort that's actually being affected by

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Speaker 1: this um and the Institutes of Medicine basically concluded that

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Speaker 1: more tests need to be done to get um FDA

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Speaker 1: approval for these kinds of therapies and make sure that

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Speaker 1: there aren't any other like age related diseases that the

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Speaker 1: testosterin therapies will actually promote, So more studies needed for

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Speaker 1: these testosterone injections. The problem is is that a lot

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Speaker 1: of doctors are sort of at a loss for what

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Speaker 1: to do if you know, if you don't want to

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Speaker 1: pursue that alley. Uh. But then again, a lot of

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Speaker 1: them are saying you don't need to do anything. You

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Speaker 1: just need to make healthy lifestyle changes. Exercise, eat healthily,

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Speaker 1: perhaps take supplements under the guidance of your doctor, take vitamins. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I think the big takeaway from men is just

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Speaker 1: to look at a picture of health as a whole.

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Speaker 1: To combine the fact that you have symptoms related to

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Speaker 1: a rectile dysfunction, symptoms related to depression, and bodily changes

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Speaker 1: that are happening that may or may not be related

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Speaker 1: to a loss of a hormone. So that's where we

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Speaker 1: are with this right now. But we've got to answer

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Speaker 1: our question, Kristen, do men go through menopause? So from

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Speaker 1: our sources, Molly, I think that we could say that, yes,

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Speaker 1: this collection of symptoms does happen in a percentage of

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Speaker 1: middle age and older men. However, the term male menopause

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Speaker 1: is incredibly misleading, so it's really more of a language problem,

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Speaker 1: a terminology problem than um, I guess, misidentifying a medical issue.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right, it seems like you know, the

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Speaker 1: male menopause term has unfortunately stuck because it's easy for

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Speaker 1: us to create a picture in our mind of what

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Speaker 1: that would look like. But it seems like calling it

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Speaker 1: male menopause does a disservice to a lot of these

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Speaker 1: men who are trying to figure out what's going on

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Speaker 1: with them. Right there was an article that you and

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Speaker 1: I found in the British Medical Journal kind of assessing

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Speaker 1: whether or not male menopause quote unquote does exist, and

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Speaker 1: Um Duncan C. Gould and Richard Petty Um, who are

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Speaker 1: two physicians in the UK, said that Um, while yes,

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Speaker 1: the symptoms do exist, um, they suggested that instead of

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Speaker 1: terming it male menopause, they preferred something more along the

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Speaker 1: lines of male climacteric, which is comes from a Greek

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Speaker 1: word that means the rung of a ladder that's been

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Speaker 1: used in the past to suggest a decline in the

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Speaker 1: hormone concentrations, rather than the drop off that we think

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Speaker 1: of that's associated more with female menopause. Because, like you

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Speaker 1: said earlier, Molly, Um, what is it past the age

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Speaker 1: of thirty, men naturally have a one percent decrease annually

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Speaker 1: in the amount of testaster and that they produced, and

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Speaker 1: by the time there's seventy, that could even go up

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Speaker 1: to of um, the amount of testoster and they used

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Speaker 1: to produce. So yes, that happens, um, but calling it

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Speaker 1: menopause is is not not very accurate, not very accurate,

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Speaker 1: but perhaps just a good thing to know that that happens.

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Speaker 1: In fact, just as one last sort of anecdote, when

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Speaker 1: we were reading this article in the Daily Mail about

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Speaker 1: a guy who had who about the diagnosis of this,

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Speaker 1: his wife was talking about how she thought he was

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Speaker 1: having an affair. You know, he was never interested in her.

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Speaker 1: He was always moody and distant. Uh, he was mean

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Speaker 1: to the kids, and it was just you know, it

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Speaker 1: really reached havoc on their home life, and she was

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Speaker 1: convinced that he was about to leave her. Turns out,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was just this medical condition, Andrew pause,

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Speaker 1: andropause or what did you say, climactic? I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: no words Smith, but that's never going to replace climatic.

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Speaker 1: Now that kind of sounds like the opposite a male

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Speaker 1: climactic sounds like something that might happen if you take viagra.

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Speaker 1: So I don't I don't know if it's going to

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Speaker 1: catch on perhaps, but we did our duty to publicize it.

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Speaker 1: And on a side note, guys even though, Um, this

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Speaker 1: male menopause term is something that seems to have popped

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Speaker 1: up more recently in the news cycle. Research on it

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Speaker 1: goes back to a landmark paper in nine four that

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Speaker 1: accurately described the symptoms associated with it, which were then

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Speaker 1: reversed by a testasphone replacement, but not by placebo and

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Speaker 1: the male participants in the study. So it's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: a new phenomenon. But I think that you know, mail

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Speaker 1: mail menopause is just such a catchy phrase. It grabbed

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Speaker 1: my attention, it did, and hopefully it grabbed yours, and

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Speaker 1: you clicked and got this far in the podcast, and

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Speaker 1: maybe some of you out there have stories to share

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Speaker 1: about this phenomenon. Maybe you've experienced man these symptoms or

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Speaker 1: your spouse has, and we would love to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: The email address, as always is mom Stuff at how

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Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. And we shall wrap up with

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Speaker 1: a little listen to mail. All right, So first off,

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Speaker 1: I have a correction that both Annie and Rachel sent

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Speaker 1: to us about our Wilma Mankiller podcast. Um, both of

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Speaker 1: them sent up. I'm going to read Annie's email, She

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Speaker 1: writes NPRS Fresh Air in tribute and an old interview

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Speaker 1: with her. It is from that interview that I think

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Speaker 1: a correction should be made to the podcast. In her

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Speaker 1: interview with Terry Gross, man Killer recounted the car crash

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Speaker 1: you talked about. Indeed, her friend was killed in the collision,

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Speaker 1: but she wasn't in the car with man Killer. Man

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Speaker 1: Killer actually collided with her friend, or perhaps more accurately,

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Speaker 1: her friend collided with her. Apparently they were driving towards

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Speaker 1: each other on a one lane per side road and

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Speaker 1: the friend was attempting to pass in a no pass

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Speaker 1: zone and ran Ryan into Mankiller. That really stayed with

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Speaker 1: me when she told the interview, just imagine the odds.

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Speaker 1: Car collisions happen every day, but it's not often the

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Speaker 1: person you hit or the person who it's you as

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Speaker 1: a friend. From what I remember from the interview, it

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Speaker 1: affected her even more than the typical car crash in

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Speaker 1: Juice tragedy might have, just because the circumstances were so extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, we have one here from Jacob and

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Speaker 1: this is about our political quotas podcast um and he said,

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Speaker 1: in your political quote of podcasts, you pontificated on what

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Speaker 1: female politicians would look like in office when they were

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Speaker 1: not the token female. We'll look no further than my

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Speaker 1: beloved Washington State. We have our two term Governor, Greg

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Speaker 1: war who is now our first female governor, state senator,

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Speaker 1: State Senate Majority Leader Lisa Brown, and to count them

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Speaker 1: to female unit U S Senators, Senator Patty Murray is

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Speaker 1: one of the most powerfulomen in the Senate and she

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Speaker 1: is number four in the Senate in overall political power.

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Speaker 1: The great states of Maine in California join us and

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Speaker 1: having two women represent us as senators. Not to blow

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Speaker 1: Washington sorn, but that's quite a record, very interesting, So

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Speaker 1: thank you, Jacob. And to wrap things up here, I

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Speaker 1: have an email from Aiden about our podcast on androgyny.

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Speaker 1: As someone who has lived in two gender, I'm transgender female.

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Speaker 1: To mail, I can tell you that a majority of

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Speaker 1: people are very uncomfortable with an androgynous person, appearance, behavior, whatever.

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Speaker 1: Most people tend to lump someone like this is masculine

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Speaker 1: woman or feminine man and won't really let you identify

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Speaker 1: as neither. This is just my experience, of course, and

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Speaker 1: maybe it's different in other places. But when I first

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Speaker 1: began taking hormones, that quickly became very disconcerting to other people.

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Speaker 1: To try to discern my gender, and they would usually

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Speaker 1: assume that I was a very young boy. I got

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Speaker 1: a lot of dirty looks in the women's bathroom before

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Speaker 1: I got the confidence to go to the men's room.

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Speaker 1: Simple things like bathrooms are more complex issues like our

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Speaker 1: insistence on categorizing people in Our society's lack of willingness

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Speaker 1: to grant people rights will probably hold us back for

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Speaker 1: a while from androgyny being acceptable or even preferred. It

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Speaker 1: would be really neat to have the no gender tag

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Speaker 1: on a passport or driver's license, though, so thank you,

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Speaker 1: Aiden and again. Our email is Mom Stuff at house

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Speaker 1: stuffworks dot com. You can also follow me and Molly

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Speaker 1: on Facebook and it and as always, you can check

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Speaker 1: out our blog during the week, It's stuff Mom Never

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Speaker 1: told You, and you can find it at how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com. For more on this and thousands of

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Speaker 1: other topics, is that how stuff works dot com. Want

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Speaker 1: more how stuff works, check out our blogs on the

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com home page. Brought to you

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Speaker 1: by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are

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Speaker 1: you