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Speaker 1: Last time on ear witness.

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Speaker 2: Short and toys and just got a shriff's office.

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Speaker 3: I'm at the Sheriff's office headquarters along with Yorlanda Michelle Chambers.

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Speaker 2: Yorlanda was reluctant. She didn't want to talk. Okay. Now,

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Speaker 2: you mentioned to me that you heard what you thought

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Speaker 2: was three shots.

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Speaker 4: But when we heard that, we were like, we don't

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Speaker 4: know what it was.

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Speaker 2: We had to keep at her and we had to.

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Speaker 5: Pull like Plentee Carlo jumping man.

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Speaker 4: That's gold.

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Speaker 2: That's cold.

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Speaker 3: It's cold, you know, Yolanda, we need this, and sometimes

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Speaker 3: we'd have to be stern, you know, and firm trying

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Speaker 3: to shake her.

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Speaker 6: You know, did he have anything on his hand?

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Speaker 3: But you told me.

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Speaker 2: Blood sometime we'd have to be soft.

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Speaker 4: What you have already told me during the times that

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Speaker 4: I have interviewed you, is that the truth?

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Speaker 2: Whatever were to get this information out of her? No,

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Speaker 2: it's not the truth.

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Speaker 5: No, So what she said she was there and I

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Speaker 5: was there. That's a life. That's a life. That's a shame.

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Speaker 2: I believe everything Lena told me, No, Helma Hella.

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Speaker 3: But Yolanda told a lot of truth. Why she was

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Speaker 3: trying to hide it by telling lies.

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Speaker 1: What did it say again?

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Speaker 3: Kuria a foura Ivan Oak Street up a dirt road

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Speaker 3: toward the beginning of the power lines.

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Speaker 1: My producer Mara, and I are in Bestsemer, a suburb

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Speaker 1: west of Birmingham. This back road is remote, no houses

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Speaker 1: or businesses nearby, just undeveloped land stretching under a bright

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Speaker 1: blue sky.

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Speaker 2: I bet it was this.

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Speaker 1: There's a dirt path underneath a stretch of power lines

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Speaker 1: that cuts through dense, overgrown shrubbery. I wonder if she

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Speaker 1: how far down the dirt road she was.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh, it was kind of pretty dark here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's nothing remarkable about this spot. It's a place

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Speaker 1: you'd drive past and not even notice. But this is

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Speaker 1: where on Valentine's Day of two thousand and nine, some

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Speaker 1: people writing four wheelers found the body of Yolanda Chambers.

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Speaker 1: I'm still not really sure why I wanted to come

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Speaker 1: here or what I was hoping to learn. I just

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Speaker 1: felt like I needed to see it. There are no

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Speaker 1: clues here about what happened to Yolanda Chambers, why she

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Speaker 1: was killed, or who did it. After the investigation into

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Speaker 1: Deputy Bill Hardy's murder ended, Yolanda would continue to work

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Speaker 1: with police as an informant, and that ongoing contact with

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Speaker 1: law enforcement may have contributed to her murder. I'm Beth Shelburne.

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Speaker 1: This is ear witness, Chapter three, Police Girl.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to talk about Yolanda.

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Speaker 5: Okay.

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Speaker 1: I've talked to Detective Tony Richardson for over seven hours

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Speaker 1: about this case, and he uses a certain adjective to

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Speaker 1: describe Yolanda Chambers over and over again.

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Speaker 2: She was street small. You remember, I say, Yolanda was very.

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Speaker 3: Street wise, street wise. I'm telling you, if you ever

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Speaker 3: met her fifteen years old, she knew more about the

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Speaker 3: street than I did.

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Speaker 1: The Dictionary definition of street smart or street wise is

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Speaker 1: a shrewd awareness of how to survive based on living

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Speaker 1: a difficult life. But Yolanda was just fifteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Detective Tony Richardson questioned Yolanda at least twenty five times

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Speaker 1: when he led the investigation into Deputy Harty's murder. Most

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Speaker 1: key witnesses and murder investigations are questioned a few times,

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Speaker 1: but twenty five that many p police interviews is almost

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Speaker 1: unheard of. And throughout these interviews, Yolanda changed her story

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Speaker 1: about the night of the murder hundreds of times. Research

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Speaker 1: shows that child witnesses are more easily influenced by police

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Speaker 1: intimidation than adults, and children entangled in criminal cases also

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Speaker 1: face more adverse psychological consequences. But knowing all this, I

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Speaker 1: still wondered what exactly was going on that made Yolanda

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Speaker 1: change her story so many times? Do you get nervous,

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Speaker 1: like knocking on somebody's door unannounced?

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Speaker 3: I think so, yeah, just because I don't want to

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Speaker 3: like freak people out, and I know that I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: feel weird.

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Speaker 1: Marra and I went on a drive searching for the

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Speaker 1: one person we knew of who could give us a

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Speaker 1: fuller picture of Yolanda Chambers life, someone who has never

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Speaker 1: spoken publicly about this case, the person who got Yolanda

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Speaker 1: involved with police in the first place.

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Speaker 7: Hey, we're looking for miss Rosa Hardy her mom.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk to you for just a second.

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Speaker 8: My name is Beth, I'm a journalist, and this is Mara,

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Speaker 8: and we're working on a project about Deputy Bill Hardy

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Speaker 8: and we're hoping to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: We pull up to a low rise apartment complex in Huntsville,

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Speaker 1: two hours north of Birmingham. Outside the first floor apartment.

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Speaker 1: We see big pots of ala vera plants and leafy

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Speaker 1: elephant ears. The front door is open, and through the

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Speaker 1: screen door we see a woman wearing a blue dress

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Speaker 1: sitting on an overstuffed leather couch, almost like she's waiting

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Speaker 1: for us to arrive.

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Speaker 5: Hey, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry to just show up unannounced, but we didn't have.

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Speaker 4: A known over I understand because when that happened, I

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Speaker 4: was living in Birmingham, and since then I lived in Cincinnati.

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Speaker 5: Forgive me, you're welcome.

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Speaker 1: Rosa lets us into her tidy apartment. There's a painted

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Speaker 1: wooden sign on the wall that says there is always, always,

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Speaker 1: always something to be thankful for, and a paper program

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Speaker 1: from Yolanda's funeral sits on the coffee table next to

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Speaker 1: framed family photos. Well, I appreciate you letting us in,

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Speaker 1: just a showing up unannounced, but we're, like I said,

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Speaker 1: working on a project about Deputy Bill Hardy's murder, and

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Speaker 1: so we were just reaching out to people that knew

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Speaker 1: him and wondered, you know, if you could share anything

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Speaker 1: about him that you knew. Y'all's relationship.

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Speaker 5: Well, I met him through his wife, Diane.

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Speaker 1: Even though Rosa and Deputy Bill Hardy share a last name.

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Speaker 1: They aren't related. Patricia Diane Hardy is Bill Hardy's widow.

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Speaker 1: Rosa sometimes refers to her as pat but mostly calls

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Speaker 1: her Diane Anne.

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Speaker 5: And all of us.

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Speaker 4: We grew up together in Selma because her mom used

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Speaker 4: to do our hair. My mother had three girls and

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Speaker 4: three boys, and her mother, Miss Belly, she did our

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Speaker 4: hair every two weeks, so we were friends.

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Speaker 1: Rosa and Patricia both eventually moved to Birmingham, where Patricia

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Speaker 1: marries Bill Hardy, and they all remain close friends.

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Speaker 4: I and I talked all the time on the phone,

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Speaker 4: but after that happened and Yolanda was involved, she kind

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Speaker 4: of shout away from me, I don't know why you know?

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Speaker 5: And then how did your daughter get wrapped up? Okay

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Speaker 5: the case. Let me tell you what happened.

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Speaker 4: I gotta tell you everything because I'm not a liar,

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Speaker 4: so I gotta tell you the truth.

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Speaker 1: Rosa begins by going way back to the first time

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Speaker 1: she and Yolanda were separated, when Rosa was arrested and

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Speaker 1: charged with drug possession and I.

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Speaker 5: Ended up catching a case going to tug.

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Speaker 1: While Julia Tutweler Prison for Women is the only maximum

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Speaker 1: security women's prison in Alabama. Rosa pleaded guilty and was

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Speaker 1: sent there for three years. During this time, eight year

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Speaker 1: old Yolanda went to live with Rosa's mother and Selma.

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Speaker 1: When Rosa was released in nineteen ninety one, Yolanda told

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Speaker 1: her that she'd been sexually abused by a neighbor.

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Speaker 4: She said, this guy there used to molest her. My

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Speaker 4: mom would have him to come over and help her

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Speaker 4: with her homework, and he molested her. So when I

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Speaker 4: got back, mentally, she was all messed up.

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Speaker 1: Yolanda was twelve years old.

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Speaker 4: And it was a rock between a hard place because

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Speaker 4: my mother said it didn't happen. But I told my

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Speaker 4: mother these exact words. I said, I wasn't there to

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Speaker 4: protect my daughter, and if she told me something happened

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Speaker 4: to her, I believe it. But then after that, you know,

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Speaker 4: she would run away from me. A lot after I

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Speaker 4: came home from prison, she would run away, and I

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Speaker 4: ended up letting mistake at her because I was nervous.

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Speaker 5: About it, and she ended up in foster care.

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Speaker 4: And when she would go to foster care, she would

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Speaker 4: run away.

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Speaker 1: When she's fourteen years old, Yolanda is hospitalized after attempting

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Speaker 1: suicide and receives a few months of counseling, and then

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Speaker 1: the next year, when she's fifteen years old, Yolanda officially

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Speaker 1: becomes a ward of the state, living full time and

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Speaker 1: foster care and group homes. The state is supposed to

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Speaker 1: be in charge of her care, but according to an

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Speaker 1: assessment ordered by a county social worker, they don't know

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Speaker 1: where she is for several months that summer. On the

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Speaker 1: night of Hardy's murder, Yolanda is staying with a friend

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Speaker 1: at the apartment where to Forrest Johnson and ardregas Ford

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Speaker 1: pick her up around two in the morning. A few

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Speaker 1: hours later, police stop them at the Super eight motel

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Speaker 1: and tell them they're looking at the murder of a

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Speaker 1: police officer.

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Speaker 4: So when I talked to her the next day, I

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Speaker 4: was employed at Adamson Ford.

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Speaker 5: I was the receptionist there.

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Speaker 1: When Rosa gets to work that day, she reads in

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Speaker 1: the newspaper that their family friend, Deputy Bill Hardy, has

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Speaker 1: been shot and killed. A little while later, she gets

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Speaker 1: a call from Yolanda.

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Speaker 4: So, you know, last night someone killed Bill over at

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Speaker 4: the hotel because he was moonlighting over there, and needs

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Speaker 4: for her exact words, she said, Mommy, I know who?

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Speaker 5: Did I say? You do?

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Speaker 1: Rosa says Yolanda didn't give her names, but after the call,

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Speaker 1: Rosa tells a police officer that her daughter has information

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Speaker 1: about the murder.

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Speaker 5: Because I just.

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Speaker 4: Felt like I owed that to pet, you know, like

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Speaker 4: I said, we were good friends. We weren't strangers, and

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Speaker 4: we grew up together in Selma, and I just felt like,

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Speaker 4: you know, I shouldn't. I was supposed to let somebody know.

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Speaker 1: Sometime after talking with police, Rosa hires an attorney to

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Speaker 1: pursue the twenty thousand dollars in reward money.

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Speaker 5: Was she ever compensated for the no?

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Speaker 4: And I felt that after I had told them, because

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Speaker 4: they did say, you know, there was some comp say.

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Speaker 5: They never did give me nothing.

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Speaker 1: Law enforcement rewards are set up to entice people in

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Speaker 1: tough financial situations, people like Rosa and Yolanda. Police say

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Speaker 1: rewards are necessary to penetrate the culture of silence and

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Speaker 1: communities impacted by crime, but they can also be a

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Speaker 1: means to manipulate because it's up to police to decide

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Speaker 1: whether the information is valuable enough to merit the reward.

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Speaker 1: That means detectives can dangle the money while they work

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Speaker 1: with witnesses, but then choose to never pay it. To

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Speaker 1: state the obvious, Yolanda is extremely vulnerable when detectives first

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Speaker 1: bring her in for questioning. In a clinical analysis she

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Speaker 1: underwent that year, a psychologist wrote that Yolanda was friendly

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Speaker 1: and outgoing, but could also be verbally aggressive and manipulative.

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Speaker 1: She also observed that Yolanda was attention seeking, especially with men.

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Speaker 1: For over a year, detectives question Yolanda at different foster

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Speaker 1: homes and shelters, sometimes pulling her out of class, a

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Speaker 1: pattern that frustrated Yolanda because she was trying to get

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Speaker 1: her ged. It seems like police were really relentless with her.

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Speaker 4: They were, they were, And she would call me each

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Speaker 4: day when she would be away. She said, Mamma, they

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Speaker 4: coming again today. I said, for what she said? I

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Speaker 4: don't know, Mama.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that they pressured her?

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Speaker 4: Sure they did, Sure they did. What you got for

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Speaker 4: is you've got to tell us something. I remember saying that.

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Speaker 4: She just told me, Mama, you shouldn't even say in anything.

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Speaker 4: Those were her words all the time.

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Speaker 1: Yolanda's statements about the night Deputy Hardy was murdered, lead

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Speaker 1: to four people charged with capital murder, including to Forrest

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Speaker 1: Johnson and ardregas Ford. But because Yolanda keeps changing her story,

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Speaker 1: in the fall of nineteen ninety six, ardregas Ford's attorney,

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Speaker 1: Richard Jaffey, asks for a hearing. He wants to examine

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Speaker 1: Yolanda's testimony and competency as a witness. The transcript from

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Speaker 1: this hearing is extraordinary, so we asked actors to read

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Speaker 1: for Judge Alfred Bayhackle and Yolanda Chambers. Richard Jaffey agreed

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Speaker 1: to read his own words. The hearing begins, Yolanda takes

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Speaker 1: the stand and is sworn in. Richard Jaffe starts by

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Speaker 1: asking her why she keeps changing her story.

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Speaker 2: Were you there at the Crown Starling?

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Speaker 9: No, sir, you were not there.

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Speaker 10: No, sir, What made you change your mind and say

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Speaker 10: and lie and.

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Speaker 2: Say you were there?

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Speaker 9: Because the pressure They was telling me, you know, don't

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Speaker 9: you know you can go to jail for this, And

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Speaker 9: that's all I was thinking. That's all I had on

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Speaker 9: my mind, jail. I don't want to go. And you know,

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Speaker 9: they was just telling me, we know you was there.

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Speaker 9: You know we can find out evidence that she was

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Speaker 9: there and just all the pressure they was put on me.

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Speaker 9: So after they was putting all the pressure on me,

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Speaker 9: I went on and said I was there. I said,

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Speaker 9: maybe if I go on and say I was there,

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Speaker 9: maybe all the threats and everything will end about me

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Speaker 9: going to jail's a juvenile.

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Speaker 1: At this point in time. Yolanda has testified in front

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Speaker 1: of the grand jury and at multiple pre trial hearings.

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Speaker 1: She has also missed one important court date. Judge bay

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Speaker 1: Hackle questions her directly.

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Speaker 9: And which hearing did you not show up at the

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Speaker 9: one that they had last Monday? I don't know which.

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Speaker 5: Why didn't you show up because because.

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Speaker 9: I didn't want to get up there and lie.

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Speaker 5: Do you feel threatened by anyone? Has anyone threatened you

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Speaker 5: so that you'd gone into having.

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Speaker 9: I felt threatened by the police because they seemed like

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Speaker 9: they was the ones that was against me.

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Speaker 1: Later, Jaffy questions her about what happened when detectives stopped

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Speaker 1: the tape recorder during interviews.

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Speaker 9: After he you know, somebody put so much pressure on me,

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Speaker 9: and then they get to saying, well, Yolanda, you know

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Speaker 9: you was there because such and such said this, and

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Speaker 9: this person was here, and I know you was with

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Speaker 9: this person. I'm gonna, quite naturally go on and say

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Speaker 9: whatever the person wants me to say, whether it's a

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Speaker 9: truth or whether it's a lie. I'm whatever the person

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Speaker 9: wants me to say, I'm gonna go on and say it.

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Speaker 9: And there was so much stress and pressure on me,

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Speaker 9: and I couldn't have my mama around when they was

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Speaker 9: questioning me or my attorney, so I just went with

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Speaker 9: the flow. Whatever they wanted me to say, I would

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Speaker 9: say it.

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Speaker 2: How do you.

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Speaker 10: Feel about what you've done to our Dregis Ford and

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Speaker 10: too far As Johnson.

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Speaker 9: I'm sorry for doing it, but I didn't know any better,

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Speaker 9: and I feel like I was even though I was lying.

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Speaker 9: I feel like I was taking advantage of two because

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Speaker 9: my own mother wasn't even there to be a comforter

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Speaker 9: for me, cause every time they came and got me,

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Speaker 9: they wouldn't let my mom come in with me. I

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Speaker 9: always had to go with them, but I was property

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Speaker 9: of them.

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Speaker 1: At the hearing, Jaffy argues that Yolanda's testimony should have

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Speaker 1: put an end to the state's case.

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Speaker 2: They should have dropped the case. They should have dropped

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Speaker 2: the case at.

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Speaker 10: The point where she had already perjured herself at the

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Speaker 10: preliminary hearing and at the grand jury, and now she's saying,

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Speaker 10: I perjured myself. So how do you ethically, if you're

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00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 10: a prosecutor, take a death penalty case, even a shoplifting

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Speaker 10: case to trial, if all you've got is testimony?

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Speaker 2: How do you do that?

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Speaker 1: But after the hearing is over, Judge Alfred bay Hackle

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Speaker 1: makes his decision. He chooses not to accept Yolanda's recantation

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Speaker 1: and denies the motion to dismiss the charges. The case

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00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 1: moves forward as if this hearing never happened. More than

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Speaker 1: twenty five years after this hearing, Detective Tony Richardson and

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Speaker 1: I discussed this moment when Yolanda said under oath that

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Speaker 1: police pressured her to change her story.

305
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Speaker 3: The rule of an interrogation is you interrogate. And part

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00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,680
Speaker 3: of an interrogation is you lean on people. You put

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Speaker 3: pressure on them. You want them to feel that pressure.

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Speaker 3: You know, you don't threaten no more or anything like that,

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Speaker 3: but you want them to feel that pressure that you

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Speaker 3: leaning on them. And you want that pressure, as o

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Speaker 3: saying goes burst of pipe, so that they will start

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Speaker 3: to overflowing and telling you, well.

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Speaker 1: Where does that leave the truth? I mean, she's clearly

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Speaker 1: perjured herself somewhere, because she's testified that she was there

315
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Speaker 1: and witnessed the murder on multiple occasions, and then she

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Speaker 1: testifies on the stand in court that that she's made

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Speaker 1: the whole thing up and she did it because of pressure.

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Speaker 1: And y'all have been coercing her.

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Speaker 3: If we had been coercing her and pressuring her, and

320
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Speaker 3: I'm sure that that happens or has happened in the paper,

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Speaker 3: Let's say that happened in the early eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: Okay, nobody in the modern age does that. Anyway, Let's

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Speaker 2: say that she was pressuring and coursed. Did she tell

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Speaker 2: things that she couldn't have known that unless she was there? Yes?

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Speaker 5: Like what?

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Speaker 3: Well, like, for instance, the scenario about how it happened,

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Speaker 3: the scenario about how the deputy came out of the

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Speaker 3: back of the hotel. We know the deputy came out

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Speaker 3: of the back of the hotel. We're not telling her this.

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Speaker 3: She came in and told us.

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Speaker 1: But that was in the newspaper.

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Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no, no no no, it.

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Speaker 1: Was in the newspaper. Hardy was killed at the back

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Speaker 1: entrance of the hotel, and this was reported and the

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Speaker 1: first article published the day of the murder. It was

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Speaker 1: also on the news the morning of his death. A

337
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Speaker 1: reporter gestures to the hotel's back door.

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Speaker 4: Work as hard as they can on this.

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Speaker 6: We are at the back door of the Crown Sterling

340
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Speaker 6: Suits where forty nine year old William Hardy was found

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Speaker 6: shot twice in the head.

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Speaker 3: So what I'm saying is, here you have Yolanda Chambers, who,

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Speaker 3: after all these years, from day one, has been called

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Speaker 3: a liar. And I'll be the first to tell you

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00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 3: she is or she was. But as an investigator, you

346
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 3: have to sort through this. You have to figure out

347
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Speaker 3: what's the truth in this to help build a case.

348
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Speaker 1: Throughout my conversation with Rosa Hardy, she expresses regret about

349
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Speaker 1: involving Yolanda in Deputy Hardy's murder investigation.

350
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Speaker 4: She resented the fact that I even mentioned it, so

351
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Speaker 4: we didn't really communicate about it. But in the end,

352
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 4: you know, I felt so many times, even after she died,

353
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Speaker 4: that you know, I just had a lot to do

354
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Speaker 4: with how she ended up. I don't know if I

355
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 4: did the right thing by speaking up looked like it

356
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 4: just missed the boy life.

357
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Speaker 1: At seventeen, Yolanda got pregnant and gave birth to a

358
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Speaker 1: baby girl. Rosa says the child's father was never part

359
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: of their lives. Yolanda would go on to have a

360
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Speaker 1: second child, a son, with another partner.

361
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 5: Such a beautiful picture of her. Yeah, she was a

362
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 5: really pretty girl. She was, and she got mixed up

363
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Speaker 5: in all kind of stuff.

364
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Speaker 6: I tell you.

365
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: Rosa shows us pictures of Yolanda where she appears happy,

366
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: smiling holding her babies. In one photo, a large tattoo

367
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: of a jaguar is visible on Yolanda's chest. Rosa tells

368
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: us after she got Yolanda involved in this case, their

369
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: relationship was never the same.

370
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Speaker 4: Ranged and she was fear made to me, call me

371
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 4: a bitch in front of anybody.

372
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Speaker 5: But we were not close at all.

373
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Speaker 1: According to Rosa, the baby boy's father wanted to marry Yolanda,

374
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Speaker 1: but he wanted her to get sober first. By then,

375
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Speaker 1: Yolanda had developed a debilitating dependence on heroin To get by.

376
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Speaker 1: Yolanda sometimes worked at a strip club in Birmingham's West End.

377
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Speaker 1: She was also arrested several times for theft and writing

378
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: bad checks. But she wasn't sent to rehab or sentenced

379
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Speaker 1: to prison for these charges. Instead, Yolanda leveraged the one

380
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: relationship where she felt she had some value the police.

381
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 4: I might be talking too much, but I'm going to

382
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 4: tell you this. I found out that she was snitching

383
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 4: on drug dealers and they were paying her.

384
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Speaker 5: The FBI, they gave her money. They would come by

385
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 5: the apartment and give her money.

386
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 4: So eventually I ran across from one that had come

387
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 4: to the apartment one time, and I had told them

388
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Speaker 4: that they needed to take care of my daughter, and

389
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 4: they said that they would.

390
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: Rosa says that police were knowingly supporting Yolanda's addiction with

391
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: no regard for her health or the incredible risks she

392
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: was taking informing on drug dealers. My producer Mara spoke

393
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: with Rosa over the phone about this.

394
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Speaker 2: Do you think they were trying to protect her any

395
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: kind of way?

396
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 5: The police, No, they wouldn't know.

397
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 4: They were not.

398
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: No, mm hmmm.

399
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 5: They didn't care.

400
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 4: All they wanted was what they wanted.

401
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: So they just paid her and that was that was it.

402
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 5: They just paid her and that was there.

403
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 4: And they told me that it wasn't anything gonna happen

404
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 4: to her, and she when she went missing. I called

405
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 4: them and told them that she was missing, and they

406
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 4: were very short with me and told me just like this, Oh,

407
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 4: she would show up. She just don't want her being

408
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 4: just that was the reply.

409
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: Rosa connects us with an old friend of Yolanda's named Alicia,

410
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: who confirms that Yolanda worked as an informant. Yolanda would

411
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: sometimes crash at Alicia's house before walking to the corner

412
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: where officers would pick her.

413
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 5: Up, and she got out and walked all the way

414
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 5: down to the end of the corner. She was like,

415
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 5: I'd be big.

416
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: Alicia tells us it wasn't a secret that Yolanda was informing.

417
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 2: You think people knew.

418
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 4: A lot of people know, Yes, yes, that was God

419
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 4: call these girls and down till two.

420
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 6: Oh.

421
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: Really, some people even called her police girl. But law

422
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: enforcement gave Yolanda no protection, and she took no precautions.

423
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 4: Because see, she was so into her bad habit, she

424
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 4: didn't care who knew she was snitching off people, so

425
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 4: that hid could have came from anywhere.

426
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: Yolanda's murder was part of a string of tragedies in

427
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: Rosa's life. All three of her children died young. When

428
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: Yolanda was six years old, her older sister, Sabrina died

429
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: from asthma complications, and a few years after Yolanda's death,

430
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: her brother Darius was killed. Darius was openly gay, an

431
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 1: activist in Chicago. He was waiting at a bus stop

432
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: when a group of men approached him and beat him

433
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: to death. Media report stated the men wanted his cell phone,

434
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: but Rosa still wonders if it was a hate crime.

435
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 4: It's devastating when you lose your kids, you know, But

436
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 4: I have to push through it.

437
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 5: Will you mean we all are gonna die. What hurt

438
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 5: is the way they live. I think about had some

439
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 5: so much I do. I miss my kids.

440
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: The people who loved Yolanda hoped she could get help

441
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: overcoming her addiction. Sometimes it seemed like Yolanda wanted that too.

442
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 4: She told me that she was sorry about the way

443
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 4: she had talked to me, and did you mistreated me?

444
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 4: And then she got killed.

445
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: The autopsy report shows that when Yolanda was killed, she

446
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: was wearing black corduroy pants, a black T shirt under

447
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: a black zip up jacket, and gold slip on flats.

448
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: Her T shirt had a heart and a peace sign

449
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: on it. She had been shot three times in the

450
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: head and once in the chest. A bullet had gone

451
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: through her right hand, as if she'd held it up

452
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: to defend herself. She was twenty nine years old.

453
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 4: That she was a very troubled person and demons had

454
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 4: took over her. And don't think I'm crazy when I

455
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 4: say this, because there are certain such things. Even when

456
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 4: she died, you could see the demons in her in

457
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 4: her casket. She was sting so bad. The girl in

458
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 4: Selma that had her body. She said that she had

459
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 4: been shot up with dope. She had hit straight through

460
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 4: here with a bullet, and she begged.

461
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 5: Me not to look at her. She said, please, don't

462
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 5: look at it. She said, remember her the way you

463
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 5: knew her.

464
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 4: But I just had to see her, and she opened

465
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 4: up and should let me look there.

466
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: We wanted to know if Yolanda's murder was connected to

467
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: her relationship with police, so we filed a freedom of

468
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: information request with the FBI. Was she in fact working

469
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: with them as a paid informant as of this recording.

470
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: The FBI has emailed us to say they have identified

471
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: at least fifty pages of relevant documents, but our request

472
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: to read them is in a long line of other requests.

473
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: We won't be able to see the documents until twoenty

474
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: twenty five.

475
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 5: So you don't know who killed your daughter.

476
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 4: No, I don't know who killed but she did call

477
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 4: me and told me that if anything had ever happened

478
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 4: to her, this guy had threatened her.

479
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: This guy was Yolanda's boyfriend. Both Rosa and Yolanda's friend Alicia,

480
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: believe he killed Yolanda and told me their relationship was volatile.

481
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: I haven't found any other evidence connecting this person to

482
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: Yolanda's murder, so I'm not going to name him here,

483
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: but I look up his record and find that he

484
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: pleaded guilty to drug trafficking and served time in federal prison.

485
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: Alicia says when she found out that Yolanda had been murdered,

486
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: she figured he'd finally learned Yolanda was informing on drug dealers.

487
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: I also learn this person was killed in twenty fifteen,

488
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: and I don't know if police ever connected him to

489
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: Yolanda's murder. Rosa says after Yolanda's funeral, she had some

490
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: contact with a detective in Bessemer about her daughter's murder,

491
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 1: but she hasn't heard anything in years. So recall it's

492
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: been forwarded to an automatic voice message system at the tone.

493
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 5: Please record your message.

494
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: Hey, this message is for Lieutenant Clemens. My name is

495
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: Beth shelburn I spend weeks trying to connect with Bessemer

496
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: Police to find out if there's anything going on with

497
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: Yolanda's murder investigation. I leave messages and finally I get

498
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Christian Clemens on the phone. I tell him the

499
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: same thing that I said in the messages, that I'm

500
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: looking into Yolanda's murder witnesses. He says he'll call me back,

501
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: but after two months, Mara and I decide to just

502
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: go there in person. Lieutenant Clemens.

503
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 6: Here we come.

504
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm here to see Lieutenant Clemens, should Shelburne. We

505
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: wait in the busy lobby of the Bessemer Police Department

506
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: until Lieutenant Clemens emerges from behind a heavy steel door.

507
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: So we have both called you about this case that

508
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: we're just trying to get an update on this project

509
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: that we're.

510
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 5: Working on Yolanda. Michelle Chambers.

511
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 11: Tell me a little bit more about it, because I

512
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 11: remember it being an overcase.

513
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 2: I haven't been able to.

514
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: Feel like I'm stuck in a loop. I keep giving

515
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: this guy the same information.

516
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: What we're talking about.

517
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're just trying to figure out why you haven't

518
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: gotten back to us. Oh, it's just he tells us

519
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: that Yolanda's case is low on the totem pole of priorities.

520
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 5: Importance, prioritization.

521
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: It was kind of low.

522
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 5: Why was that low?

523
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 11: Today's victims are the ones we do with most, you know,

524
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 11: it's surely just prioritization of cases. We have found detectives.

525
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 11: We had twenty nine homicides last year. We knew the math.

526
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: Even though Lieutenant Clemens is perfectly polite, it seems like

527
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: he's not going to spend time on this case. But

528
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: we give him the information we've learned about Yolanda's murder,

529
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,479
Speaker 1: including the name of the possible suspect. Maybe if any

530
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: evidence from Yolanda's body was preserved, police could test it

531
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: and match it against this possible suspect. He served time

532
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: in federal prison, so his DNA would be on record.

533
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 1: I ask if we can look at the investigative file,

534
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: and he promises to get back to me.

535
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,919
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, well, thank you for your time.

536
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: A few hours later, Lieutenant Clemens calls and tells me

537
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: that Yolanda's case is still open. He says he'll look

538
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: into the evidence that's being held in a storage unit.

539
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, just so you know, my next chapter is to

540
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 6: go out to our storage build world of our old

541
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 6: records or old cases and look for the case file

542
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 6: on this and kind of go through it again to

543
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 6: see what was done, what needs to be done. And

544
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 6: got there.

545
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: So I wait to hear back from Lieutenant Clemens, but

546
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: he never calls again. This feels like the system letting

547
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,479
Speaker 1: Yolanda Chambers down one final time.

548
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 2: So my name is Cali Greer.

549
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: For many years, Callie Greer faced the same struggles as

550
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 1: Yolanda Chambers, like drug addiction and charged interactions with police.

551
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 1: Callie is now an organizer and educator focused on advocating

552
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: for poor people in Alabama. I asked her from some

553
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: perspective on Yolanda's life, death, and her involvement with law enforcement.

554
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:05,479
Speaker 12: They'd finally vulnerable people that are on drugs for black

555
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 12: Some of them were white street people, people that on

556
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 12: the street, unsheltered, unprotected, underserved, disposable, invisible people. When you're

557
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 12: out there like that you're used by the drug deals.

558
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 12: You're used by the men on the stript, the giants,

559
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 12: you're used by the police officers.

560
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 2: You're used by men that malests.

561
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 12: You're in your family, you're used by your moms and

562
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 12: your aunt's boyfriends, and so you just use. Yeah, You're

563
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 12: just used and you have no sympathy. You have no worth,

564
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 12: no morals, you have none of this stuff that makes

565
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 12: you feel human.

566
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: Kelly says that when officers give informants attention call them

567
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: by their given name, that's powerful for people who are

568
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: otherwise ignored.

569
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 12: How somebody saw you recognize you didn't actually call my name,

570
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 12: you know, because you.

571
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: Have not been called that name your name.

572
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 12: You've been called everything else but that crackhead, pitch or prostitute,

573
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 12: Greg add it convic criminal mama.

574
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: So I see that with.

575
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: Her CALLI holds compassion for Yolanda, a grace that didn't

576
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: seem to be extended to her by law enforcement or

577
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: the court system. Yolanda Chambers was most valuable to law

578
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: enforcement when she was traumatized. I think this is something

579
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: Detective Tony Richardson realizes too.

580
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: Yolanda Chambers was a fifteen year old child that I

581
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: wish we would have handled at the time a little

582
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 3: bit differently.

583
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: What do you wish she would have done differently?

584
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 3: Well, I wish we would have taken more time in

585
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 3: this whole thing, the whole case.

586
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: I wish we would have taken more time.

587
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 3: I wish that I would have taken more time with Yolanda.

588
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: I wish that.

589
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have looked at her as a street wise girl.

590
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 3: And I think in looking at her at her as

591
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 3: a and she was street wise, I treated her like

592
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: she was older and street wise instead of treating her

593
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 3: like she's fifteen, scared to death, don't know what to do,

594
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 3: which way to go. And I did that because I've

595
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: got a police officer that's been shop.

596
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: In the years following Hardy's murder and for the rest

597
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: of Yolanda's life, she didn't talk with her mom much

598
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: about the case. But there was one thing, Roses says,

599
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: Yolanda told her consistently over the years, and this.

600
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 5: Is what she always said too.

601
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 4: The one that did at the time, he wasn't even

602
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 4: the one that did it. Now she did tell me that,

603
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 4: she said he didn't even.

604
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: Do so to Forrest Johnson is the one he's still.

605
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 5: In prison, but she said he wasn't the one that did.

606
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 4: Wow.

607
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: Next time, the Overlooked Clues and lost leads, we investigate

608
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: the investigation into Deputy Hardy's murder and what detectives miss

609
00:40:54,960 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: while they fixate on Yolanda. Ear Witness is a production

610
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company

611
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: Number One. Executive producers are Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis,

612
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: and me Beth Shelburn. The investigative reporting for this series

613
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:26,439
Speaker 1: was done by Me and MARAA McNamara. Producers are MARAA McNamara,

614
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 1: Hannah Bial and Jackie Pawley. Kara Kornhaber is our senior producer.

615
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: Britt Spangler is our sound designer. Additional story editing from

616
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: Marie Sutton, fact check help from Katherine Newhan. Special thanks

617
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: to Gracelyn Presswood for playing the part of Yolanda Chambers,

618
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: Brett Knight for playing Judge Alfred bay Hackle, and Attorney

619
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: Richard Jaffey for playing himself in the courtroom scene of

620
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: this episode. And special thanks two to four Forrest Johnson's

621
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: legal defense team. You can follow the show on Instagram. TikTok, Facebook,

622
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: and Twitter at Lava for Good To see behind the

623
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: scenes content from our investigation, visit Lava for Good dot com,

624
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: slash earwitness