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Speaker 1: This is Tom Rowland's Reese and you're listening to Switched

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Speaker 1: on the podcast brought to you by BNF, and today

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Speaker 1: we're here to talk about sustainable finance policy. Having spent

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Speaker 1: years in development. In February of this year, the European

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Speaker 1: Union took an act to its sustainable reporting regulations, in

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Speaker 1: the process limiting investors access to climate data and potentially

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Speaker 1: limiting their ability to push capital towards the energy transition.

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Speaker 1: Widely considered the leader for sustainable finance policy, the watering

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Speaker 1: down of these key regulations has thrown the EU's position

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Speaker 1: into question. Part of the pressure behind the shift has

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Speaker 1: been concerned over competitiveness, exacerbated by the new Trump administration

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Speaker 1: in the United States, which has continued to take aim

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Speaker 1: at climate regulations. But as Europe stumbles, could a new

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Speaker 1: leader be found in the form of the Asia Pacific Region,

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Speaker 1: which during the second half of twenty twenty four introduced

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Speaker 1: twenty one new sustainable finance policies. To discuss this and more, today,

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Speaker 1: am joined by b and EF sustainable finance analysts Maya

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Speaker 1: Messenger and Jamison McLennan, who share findings from their recently

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Speaker 1: released research notes titled EU weaken sustainable leadership with rule

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Speaker 1: rollback and Sustainable Finance Marketing Outlook one twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: which B and EF clients can find. BNF go on

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal or on BNF dot com. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's get to talking about sustainable finance policy.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast, Meyer, thank you, thank you Don

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Speaker 2: for having.

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Speaker 1: Me, and welcome Jameson.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks great to be here.

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Speaker 1: When we last spoke about sustainable finance policy on the

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Speaker 1: Switched On podcast, Europe was leading the way. Can you

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Speaker 1: remind everyone why we were saying that and whether the

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Speaker 1: policies and frameworks that were behind that are still on course.

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Speaker 3: So that you has three significant sustainable of finance reporting policies.

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Speaker 3: The Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, which requires companies to report

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Speaker 3: at a range of environmental social sustainability metrics, The Corporate

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Speaker 3: Sustainability Due Diligence Directive, which requires companies to report on

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Speaker 3: the sustainability impacts of their value chain. And the EU Taxonomy,

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Speaker 3: which works as effectively a classification systems for which economic

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Speaker 3: activities are considered green within the European Union.

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Speaker 1: So how often do they have to report this and

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Speaker 1: who do they have to report it to.

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Speaker 3: So the reporting timelines vary between the regulations, but they're

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Speaker 3: typically reporting to each of the specific governments within the

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Speaker 3: European Union that have transposed these regulations into their national law.

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Speaker 3: These three sort of significant sustainability reporting regulations have been

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Speaker 3: weakened over the past couple months. So in February February

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Speaker 3: twenty six, twenty twenty five, the European Union passed their

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Speaker 3: Sustainability onminnion bus which effectively work to limit the scope

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Speaker 3: of some of this reporting regulation by reducing the number

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Speaker 3: of companies that are required to report. For example, under

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Speaker 3: the CSRD, under the original draft, any company with more

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Speaker 3: than two hundred and fifty employees within the European Union

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Speaker 3: would have to report on a range of sustain nobility metrics.

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Speaker 3: They've now bumped up that requirement so companies with more

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Speaker 3: than a thousand employees only have to report, So they've

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Speaker 3: limited that scope by around eighty percent.

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Speaker 1: There's just a couple of kind of clarification questions I

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Speaker 1: have on all of this, because so from what I understand,

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Speaker 1: the way it works is the EU has a directive

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Speaker 1: and then national governments transposed that directive into their own laws.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything to stop national governments from saying, actually,

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Speaker 1: we like these rules the way that they were or

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Speaker 1: does this change in the directive require them all to

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Speaker 1: scale back their requirements?

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Speaker 3: It requires them all to scale back their requirements. The

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Speaker 3: European Commission has gone in and edited the specific directives

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Speaker 3: for the CSOD and the cs Triple D, and so

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Speaker 3: member states will have to go back and retranspose the

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Speaker 3: new regulation.

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Speaker 1: So it's not just it's no longer pushing national governments

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Speaker 1: to put in place a law, it's actually preventing them

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Speaker 1: from doing so if they wanted to.

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Speaker 2: The utexonomy also is a regulation, so it's going to

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Speaker 2: be like implemented and supervised at the European level. The

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Speaker 2: two others are there, but I think they can still

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Speaker 2: like amend. There is a scale back, so it means

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Speaker 2: that when a directive is then implemented at national level,

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Speaker 2: members that have some flexibility with regards to the implementation.

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Speaker 2: But indeed they could strengthen the scope. I don't think

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Speaker 2: we're going to see it because a lot of this

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Speaker 2: has happened because of a push from member states to

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Speaker 2: basically scale back on these directives and regulations. So I

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Speaker 2: don't think we're going to say so.

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Speaker 1: My question is kind of moot in a way that

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Speaker 1: there isn't a government that wants to go further than

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Speaker 1: the eregulations.

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Speaker 2: I mean, to our knowledge, not really. Actually, just today

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Speaker 2: Member states have agreed to stop the clock rule on

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Speaker 2: the omnibus, So it means that basically one of the

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Speaker 2: amendments on these directives was to delay their implementation for

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Speaker 2: the ces or the end of cs repody in particular,

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Speaker 2: and members they have just voted on that. So it

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Speaker 2: feels that there is still a consensus around this topic.

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Speaker 2: There is not like a one key country that is

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Speaker 2: being particularly like vocal about not scaling back these policy

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Speaker 2: and let's just be clear also about something is that

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Speaker 2: the CSRD, the CES reply and the U Taxonomy had

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Speaker 2: been passed, and the CSRD and the U Taxonomy they

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Speaker 2: were already reporting happening against them. It's been two years.

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Speaker 2: That two years, yeah, two years for the taxonomy, and

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Speaker 2: this year is the first reporting. The reporting has been

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Speaker 2: phased in depending on the size of the company, so

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Speaker 2: the biggest companies have started reporting against the CSRD from

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Speaker 2: this year onwards. That being said, while it may change

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Speaker 2: for the taxonomy, most of the company that have started

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Speaker 2: reporting this year on the CSRD will have to report

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Speaker 2: in the future, but it might be a question of

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Speaker 2: they might have to report on less indicators.

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Speaker 1: So I mean this kind of leads to the next question.

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Speaker 1: You know, as you say that, like, the EU was

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Speaker 1: one place two years ago and two years later it's

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Speaker 1: changed tack and it seems to be a fairly universal

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Speaker 1: feeling around it. So what led to this rollback?

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Speaker 2: There have been criticisms around sustainable finance regulatory agenda in

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Speaker 2: the you being overly burdensome, So that was coming from companies,

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Speaker 2: certain companies, but there also has been an important report

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Speaker 2: in the in the EU, which is the More Dog

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Speaker 2: Drugs Report on competitiveness of companies how to bring back

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Speaker 2: competitiveness from companies in the EU, and one of his

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Speaker 2: key advice to European regulators was to scale down the

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Speaker 2: sustainable finance regulatory agenda. In particular, these regulations were targeting

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Speaker 2: for the first time small and medium enterprises, so SMEs

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Speaker 2: there were also having a big extra territorial impact, so

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Speaker 2: a lot of like non EU companies that were trading

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Speaker 2: in the EU or having some operations in you were

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Speaker 2: falling in scope for it. So this has all shifted

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Speaker 2: the you to rethink this rollback, and it feels like

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Speaker 2: it feels like there is a rollback on sustainable both

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Speaker 2: finance policy because also this compliance was I always make

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Speaker 2: this joke, but it's also a geeky one, but it's

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Speaker 2: always like really everything everywhere or at once, because they

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Speaker 2: were targeting everyone at the same time, some policies were

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Speaker 2: coming into places that were not really finished, which is

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Speaker 2: the case of the CSRD. The taxonomy also has been messy,

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Speaker 2: so I think it was it was quite expensive for

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Speaker 2: companies to implement it, but it's also it feels like

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Speaker 2: a shifting strategy. So the same day that the EU

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Speaker 2: has published this omnibus regulation, its proposal to scale back everything,

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Speaker 2: they've also published a Clean Industrial Deal, which basically brings

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Speaker 2: more subsidies to the energy transition, reassert greenhouse gas emission reduction,

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Speaker 2: stuff like that. So it feels like it's almost they

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Speaker 2: moved away from a stick regulation to introduce carrot regulations

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Speaker 2: and move away from reporting compliance to basically creating real

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Speaker 2: economy incentives. So it's almost like a change in philosophical approach,

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Speaker 2: like political approach.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you could also term it as a

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Speaker 1: change from private sector led transition to public sector led transition.

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Speaker 2: True.

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Speaker 3: I'd also just add that this is all happening in

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Speaker 3: the context of the pushback against sustainability reporting in the

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Speaker 3: US as well. And so we've seen the Securities and

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Speaker 3: Exchange Commissions sustainability of reporting regulation get rolled back. You've

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Speaker 3: seen the Trump administration take a pretty aggressive stance actually

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Speaker 3: against CSRD and cs triple D, and so this this

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Speaker 3: rollback is kind of happening in context of that as well.

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Speaker 3: And it also brings into a question about European companies

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Speaker 3: competing against maybe American companies that aren't held to the

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Speaker 3: same reporting standard as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, this was kind of going to

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Speaker 1: be my next question, and you've kind of already answered

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Speaker 1: it to some extent. But apart from it, you know,

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Speaker 1: the sort of the optics of it. The US has

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Speaker 1: a new administration, it's a lot less friendly towards things

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Speaker 1: we would broadly term ESG. You kind of mentioned what

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Speaker 1: sound like they actually have leverage on what the EU does.

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Speaker 1: What can you just explain a little bit more what

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Speaker 1: you mean there.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's specifically leverage, but more a

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Speaker 3: relative competitive advantage potentially if the American companies aren't required

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Speaker 3: to report this range of sustainability metrics, whereas European companies

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Speaker 3: maybe are, and so European companies may be undercut by

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Speaker 3: by businesses not just in the US as well. I

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Speaker 3: think that's part of goes back to the original competitiveness

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Speaker 3: concerns that stems from the DRAG Report.

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Speaker 1: A question I have around this competitiveness concern is because

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Speaker 1: you know, we hear it BNF, we look at the

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Speaker 1: energy transition and in most areas we say it's a

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Speaker 1: competitive advantage to be more sustainable in various ways, you know,

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Speaker 1: in mitigating risk for the future. Is it that that

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Speaker 1: is just simply wrong at this moment in time or

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Speaker 1: is it literally the regulatory burden that was on these

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Speaker 1: companies was the issue, Like just the amount they had

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Speaker 1: to invest in doing the paperwork, Like what is the

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Speaker 1: thinking behind it being less competitive having this requirement on you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so we definitely it's definitely more of a regulatory

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Speaker 3: burden rather than sustainability being uncompetitive. In some cases, these

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Speaker 3: companies under the CSRD would be required to report over

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Speaker 3: one thousand data points, which for smaller medium enterprise can

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Speaker 3: be incredibly overwhelming. And our view on the Sustainable Finance

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Speaker 3: team at PNF is that rather than potentially limiting the

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Speaker 3: scope of companies that are required to report under these regulations,

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Speaker 3: which is what has happened, the change in regulations could

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Speaker 3: have focused on limiting the number of metrics that are

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Speaker 3: required to report to just the key ones that investors.

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Speaker 1: Are much so it is like maybe over complex.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, and I think like the backlash we're seeing

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Speaker 2: this regulatory push and everything. I completely agree with everything

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Speaker 2: Jameson is saying. But on top of this, and I

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Speaker 2: think we agree with Jameson on that is like there

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Speaker 2: is going to be, in any case, a heightened urge

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Speaker 2: from companies to prove that the sustainability choices that they

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Speaker 2: make companies and financial institutions are being financially profitable, that

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Speaker 2: they are being made for the competitiveness of the business.

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Speaker 2: And in particular in the US, I think there's going

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Speaker 2: to be more and more of an urge to prove

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Speaker 2: that sustainability is actually the good financial decision for companies.

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Speaker 2: And that's probably also why we're seeing this situation where

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Speaker 2: the US saying, Okay, you know what, we're moving away

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Speaker 2: from reporting, and we were talking to corporations that hired

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Speaker 2: or now use dozens and dozens of people just to

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Speaker 2: do a CSRD report, for instance, and to say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: maybe this is money that could go to actually investing

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Speaker 2: in the energy transition or developing the technology we need

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Speaker 2: for it. And so I think that's why we're seeing

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Speaker 2: this shift on the U side. On the US side,

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Speaker 2: there is still a lot to be discussed. We're probably

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Speaker 2: not the best ones to answer the question around like

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Speaker 2: subsidies to clean energy and the rest of these technologies.

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Speaker 2: But on the sustainable finance front, I think also one

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Speaker 2: of the things is that this necessity to prove profitability

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Speaker 2: and competitiveness is going to become extremely serious in the

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Speaker 2: coming years.

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Speaker 1: So I want to move on to talking about what

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Speaker 1: impact this might have on investment. And I'm going to

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Speaker 1: use an analogy here. So I'm vegan, and so when

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Speaker 1: you're vegan, you sometimes go into a restaurant or into

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Speaker 1: the grocery store and there's little v signs that tell

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Speaker 1: you that there are things that are good for you,

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Speaker 1: and you don't have to do the work to figure

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Speaker 1: out whether something is you know, legit for you to

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Speaker 1: invest your veganism in and sometimes that isn't there, and

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Speaker 1: then you have to, like if you're in the grocery store,

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Speaker 1: like read the list of ingredients, or if you're in

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Speaker 1: a restaurant, you have to ask lots of annoying questions.

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Speaker 1: So the existence of the little green VS. The impact

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Speaker 1: of it is it shifts the emphasis on you having

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Speaker 1: to do the homework to the providers of the food

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Speaker 1: to do the homework. Now, there isn't a government requirement

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Speaker 1: for little vs. Everywhere, and there are actually third party

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Speaker 1: organizations that have created these frameworks. The reason't they use

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Speaker 1: this analogy is this, This hasn't changed whether or not

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be vegan, but it certainly streamlines my veganism.

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Speaker 1: So I hope the analogy where I'm going with this

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Speaker 1: is clear is some of these requirements is like a

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Speaker 1: requirement for the equivalent of a little V next to

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Speaker 1: certain companies, to certain investments, for investors that have an

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Speaker 1: appetite to put money into green causes. So I guess

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Speaker 1: a couple of questions, is it going to actually change

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Speaker 1: the appetite for this investment or is it just going

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Speaker 1: to make it a little bit harder and put the

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Speaker 1: onus onto the burden of the work on the investors.

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Speaker 1: And then second question is their scope for as is

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Speaker 1: the case with vegan and vegetarian labels, that actually there's

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Speaker 1: third parties that might come in and have their own assessments,

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Speaker 1: you know, whether it's NGOs or someone else.

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Speaker 3: I think the goal with these sustainability reporting policies kind

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Speaker 3: of what you're kind of saying. I think it helps

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Speaker 3: to investors streamline their decisions. It provides a raft of

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Speaker 3: standardized data points that they can specifically point to and

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Speaker 3: evaluate for their sustainability and climate performance. I do think

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Speaker 3: think the reporting does lower barriers to entry for investors

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Speaker 3: that may have interesting sustainability or some sort of sustainability

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Speaker 3: concerns without having the resources to actually go through and

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Speaker 3: perform this due diligence themselves. There's forms of voluntary reporting

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Speaker 3: and third party reporting, but the fact that it's coming

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Speaker 3: from sort of government regulation side, I think ensures that

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Speaker 3: kind of the universe is as standardized as possible.

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Speaker 2: As well, I agree with jameson there is that angle

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Speaker 2: the standardized way, the fact is like government stabled and

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Speaker 2: all of that. But I would want to add on

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Speaker 2: two points. Indeed, We don't think that slashing down reporting

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Speaker 2: will re question the whole investment in clean energy and

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Speaker 2: in the transition. I agree with everything Jameson has said,

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Speaker 2: but indeed remove the barrier to entry to have these

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Speaker 2: regulations and not having them might make it more difficult.

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Speaker 2: That being said, I think that there are some indicators

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Speaker 2: that are becoming increasingly necessary to make the right decision.

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Speaker 2: And in particular, the taxonomy was answering the question of, Okay,

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Speaker 2: how much a company is investing in the transition by

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Speaker 2: reporting green capex, how much the company has already transitioned

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Speaker 2: to low carbon economy by looking at the percentage of

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Speaker 2: green revenues. These are key indicators that also force companies

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Speaker 2: to disclose revenue segmentation, that are key to any decision maker,

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Speaker 2: whether you are an impact investment fund, an ESG fund,

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Speaker 2: which is a fund that takes into account environmental, social

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Speaker 2: and governance factors, or just a random fund that tries

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Speaker 2: to mitigate their explosure to climate risk. And instead of

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Speaker 2: reworking the taxonomy, which is heavily flowed because it's a

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Speaker 2: massive it's a massive piece of work and I know

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Speaker 2: because I've worked on it in the past, instead of

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Speaker 2: reworking it, aligning it with accounting standard. The EU has

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Speaker 2: decided to just cut down the number of companies that

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Speaker 2: are reporting against it and make it voluntary, and we

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Speaker 2: know that voluntary taxonomy most companies don't report against them,

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Speaker 2: so that could actually impact beyond the investment to clean energy,

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Speaker 2: at least the capacity from investors and lenders to mitigate

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Speaker 2: their exposure to climate risk. And the second thing is

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Speaker 2: Jamison has talked about the anti ESG backlash we're seeing

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Speaker 2: in the US through the lens of regulation, and amongst

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Speaker 2: all the anti ESG lows we're seeing at US state level,

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Speaker 2: we are seeing a lot of boycott laws or laws

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Speaker 2: and anti esglows that boycott prevents certain financial transitions from

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Speaker 2: making business in a certain state because they are too

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Speaker 2: heavily involved in sustainability. And antire ESG to take into

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Speaker 2: account any factor that is not pecuniary, so it needs

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Speaker 2: a factor that is not financially material in their decision

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Speaker 2: making process. This can affect not the energy transition that

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Speaker 2: is already profitable, not the wind, the solar, the evs.

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Speaker 2: It's going to affect the clean technology that are not

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Speaker 2: necessarily financially profitable, but that still people want to see

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Speaker 2: in their investment fund if they are interested in sustainability,

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Speaker 2: so carbon capture and storage, hydrogen investment, these emerging technologies.

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Speaker 2: So in this sense, I think we really need to

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Speaker 2: nuance this. In this sense, I completely agree with Jameson's point,

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Speaker 2: and I would add on top of this, So revamping

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Speaker 2: the EU taxonomy was a necessity because it was burdensome,

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Speaker 2: but it could have been done differently to drive a

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Speaker 2: better impact. Second one is the nuance that we need

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Speaker 2: to see in the US because it might dempen a

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Speaker 2: certain sort of investment, but not all of them, and

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Speaker 2: also not the whole energy transition investment is at stake

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Speaker 2: just because of this backlash, I.

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Speaker 1: Really want to understand, you know, because I just want

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Speaker 1: to pick up on one thing you said, which was

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Speaker 1: that now companies aren't getting the information they actually need,

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Speaker 1: which going back to my metaphor about veganism, it's not

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Speaker 1: just that the little v's are being taken away. Are

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Speaker 1: you saying that actually the ingredient list on the back

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Speaker 1: of the packet is getting taken away? Is that even

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Speaker 1: if companies want to invest the effort to up they

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Speaker 1: actually don't have the information they need.

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Speaker 2: Well in the EU right now, there's going to be so,

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Speaker 2: as I said today, one of the amendment has gone

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Speaker 2: through the Council because you know, like the EU legislative

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Speaker 2: process is very complicated. Even after like five or six

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Speaker 2: years in this just doing research about it, it's still

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Speaker 2: quite complicated to me. But basically all these amendments so

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Speaker 2: that omnibus package will have to go through Council and Parliament.

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Speaker 2: One of the amendment, which was to delay reporting, has

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Speaker 2: gone through Council already today, so it has to go

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Speaker 2: through Parliament. Is going to go through Parliament on the

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Speaker 2: first of April. There has been like urge to get

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Speaker 2: this through the delay bit because otherwise some companies were

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Speaker 2: well in scope as early as next year for reporting,

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Speaker 2: and you know you don't prepare reporting on in December

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Speaker 2: or April. So that's the first thing. The other thing

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Speaker 2: is there is intense consultation with a lot of like

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Speaker 2: industrial societies representing civilians, companies and stuff like that, which

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Speaker 2: is one of the big criticism that has been made

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Speaker 2: to the EU, which is the fact that it built

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Speaker 2: all these regulation a bit too much behind closed doors

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Speaker 2: rather than involving everyone. So that might help as well.

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Speaker 2: And then I think Tom, there could be questions around

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Speaker 2: will this shift and strategy continue, you know, like maybe

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Speaker 2: we'll see a scale back on regulatory front around disclosure,

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Speaker 2: but we might see more incentives around real economy incentives

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Speaker 2: and investing in all of that and strengthening being more

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Speaker 2: like a closer to the economy rather than just around

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Speaker 2: the reporting.

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Speaker 1: Got it. So, if the EU isn't going to be

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Speaker 1: taking the same leadership role on this front that it

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Speaker 1: has done in the past, does that create an opportunity

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Speaker 1: for another region of the world or another country to

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Speaker 1: step up and seize the initiative.

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Speaker 3: The EU putting the brakes on some of it sustainability

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Speaker 3: reporting regulation. There's a concern here that it pulls momentum

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Speaker 3: from sustainability reporting regular globally. CS Triple D is still

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Speaker 3: the first of its kind in terms of regulation, and

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Speaker 3: we don't really see a comparable version globally yet. However,

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Speaker 3: as they potentially step back, we start to see regulation

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Speaker 3: in Asia Pacific region, specifically in China as well, start

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Speaker 3: to become closer to comparable to the EU's regulatory framework.

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Speaker 3: With twenty one sustainable finance policy developments in the second

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Speaker 3: half of twenty twenty four, and it was definitely the

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Speaker 3: busiest region globally, so we're starting to see some strong

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Speaker 3: policy growth there as well. I'd also point to Brazil

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Speaker 3: and the UK are both looking to potentially develop a

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Speaker 3: mandatory taxonomy after the EU's mandatory taxonomy, and if the

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Speaker 3: EU continues to weaken or weakens there reporting against their taxonomy,

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Speaker 3: either of these markets might end up leading in that sense.

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Speaker 1: What is the outlook overall? I mean, we've seen scaling

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Speaker 1: back in the EU, We've seen progress maybe happening in Asia,

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Speaker 1: the UK and Brazil, as you've just mentioned, maybe moving

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Speaker 1: forward with certain things as a bit of a question

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Speaker 1: of where leadership will come from. But what is the

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Speaker 1: future in your view and say the next five years

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Speaker 1: or so of this type of framework for supporting investment

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Speaker 1: in the energy transition.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean the first thing to say is that

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Speaker 2: if we had been asked this question just six months ago,

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Speaker 2: we would have never predicted the omnibus. The EU had

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Speaker 2: spent so much money, effort time into developing the Sustainable

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Speaker 2: Finance Agenda, and it feels that they were convinced they

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Speaker 2: were fighting the right fight. So I think it's that's

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Speaker 2: one of the things that financial institutions and companies are

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Speaker 2: effectively criticizing and being vocal about is to say, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: the policy agenda is too uncertain, too inconsistent. They need

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Speaker 2: clearer guidance, clearer roadmaps about what's going to happen in

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Speaker 2: the coming years. Because companies hire sustainability teams to do

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Speaker 2: the reporting and then get told that actually they might

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Speaker 2: not even have to do it in the future. They

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Speaker 2: get asked for reporting, and then investors say that it

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Speaker 2: is not necessarily what they want, they want something else.

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Speaker 2: So I think clarity is going to be really important

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Speaker 2: in the coming years, like having these clear agenda both

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Speaker 2: in EMEA, Europe and APEC. And the second thing is

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Speaker 2: we haven't tooked at all about the International Sustainability Standards Board,

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Speaker 2: the iss B framework, and we think that it's going

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Speaker 2: to be one of the key framework that's going to

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Speaker 2: impose itself around the globe.

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Speaker 3: I'd agree with everything that you've said so far. I

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Speaker 3: will just add a little bit of the US perspective

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Speaker 3: and that with the Trump administration, we've started to see

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Speaker 3: some more antiesg policies being passed at the state level

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Speaker 3: and federal level. Sustainability reporting, either through the SEC rules

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Speaker 3: or the adoption of the International Sustainability Standards Board standards

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Speaker 3: are not particularly likely as well. We do see some

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Speaker 3: positive state developments, but while we've unfortunately seen a bit

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Speaker 3: of a rollback in the EU, the US is definitely

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Speaker 3: very far behind on the sustainability of reporting front.

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Speaker 1: Well, one thing I was going to ask is you know,

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Speaker 1: to your point that you has invested so much time

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Speaker 1: and effort into this and then supposedly rolled it back.

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Speaker 1: Is there maybe an argument that they're just putting it

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Speaker 1: on ice for now and that all of that work

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Speaker 1: and everything that has been learned is still there ready

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Speaker 1: to be taken back off the shelf.

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Speaker 2: That's an amazing question, thank you. Yeah. No, I think

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Speaker 2: it's a really good question because I think they are

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Speaker 2: hoping that it might be picked up as a voluntary standard.

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Speaker 2: So they might think that because it's the more companies

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Speaker 2: are going to use it, or that it may influence

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Speaker 2: other regions in the world and stuff like that. That

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Speaker 2: being said, I still think that there is a need

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Speaker 2: for a revamp of some of these regulations. Jameson explained it.

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Speaker 2: The CSRD requires with a caveat, you need to prove

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Speaker 2: that it's fine, like its material to your business and whatever.

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Speaker 2: But like it lists on two hundred indicators quantitative and qualitative.

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Speaker 2: This is too much. This is too many. And the

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Speaker 2: taxonomy is also a lot of work to do a

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Speaker 2: taxonomy reporting. So there could be work to be done

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Speaker 2: on the essence of these laws. And I'm not saying

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Speaker 2: this as the x filos of her that I was,

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Speaker 2: but like there is something to be done about the

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Speaker 2: core of these policies and maybe they could use it

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Speaker 2: in the future. Maybe it's just a question of timing.

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Speaker 1: Maybe to borrow from your language, Maya. Maybe it's not adieux,

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Speaker 1: but it's au revoir.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, exactly. Maybe it's just amaya.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Domin, thanks for allowing us to bring a lot

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Speaker 2: of nuance to this topic.

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Speaker 1: And Jamison, thank you also. Thanks.

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Speaker 3: There is great to be here.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by cam Gray

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Speaker 2: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling.

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Speaker 1: Bloomber NIF is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP

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