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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: In terms of technology SETS, what's happening with the Paul

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Speaker 2: Allen array.

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Speaker 3: Well, the Paul Allen ray is still being used. It's

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Speaker 3: being used for SETI, but it's also you know, a

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Speaker 3: pretty powerful radio telescope, so it's also used for, if

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Speaker 3: you will, conventional astronomical research. It's still, you know, far

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Speaker 3: short of the original intention, which was to build two

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Speaker 3: or three hundred of these antennas across the valley floor

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Speaker 3: here in well, California, behind the Sierras. But you know,

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Speaker 3: there wasn't enough money to do that, so we have

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Speaker 3: what is it is somewhere between forty and fifty antennas,

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Speaker 3: and they're being used, as they say, for SETI, trying

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Speaker 3: to find a signal that would betray the aliens, but

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Speaker 3: they're also used for radio astronomy.

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Speaker 2: Now, tell us what other countries have with organizations like SETI. Anything,

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Speaker 2: not too many?

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Speaker 3: Actually SETI this is actually an interesting thing, at least

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Speaker 3: to me. I hoped from the listeners that SETI this

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Speaker 3: idea that you might be able to find the aliens

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Speaker 3: by tuning them in on the radio that's been almost

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Speaker 3: exclusively an American experiment since its beginning, since Frank Drake

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Speaker 3: did the first SETI experiment back in nineteen sixty, it's

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Speaker 3: only been the Americans that have done this now, you know,

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Speaker 3: to me, the interesting thing is why is that? It's

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Speaker 3: not that the Americans are the only ones who have

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Speaker 3: the equipment. That's not true. I lived in Europe for

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Speaker 3: thirteen years actually, and you know, there are a whole

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Speaker 3: bunch of radio telescopes in Europe. In particular, I was

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Speaker 3: in the Netherlands and they had a very large antenna

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Speaker 3: array that they could have used for SETI. The only

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Speaker 3: person who ever used that antenna array for SETI was

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Speaker 3: me an American and that, you know, that kind of

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Speaker 3: surprised me. And I would ask my Dutch colleagues and say,

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Speaker 3: why why don't you guys try doing some experiments here

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Speaker 3: using this array? And they, you know, they kind of

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Speaker 3: poop pooted. They didn't think it was real science.

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Speaker 2: Can we assume that every extraterrestrial race out there is friendly?

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Speaker 2: We can't do that, can we?

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Speaker 3: No, you can't. You have no idea whether they're friendly

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Speaker 3: or not. I mean, you don't want to make a mistake.

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Speaker 3: I suppose. I mean, there is this. I don't worry

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Speaker 3: too much about hostile aliens, although they're pretty amusing in

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Speaker 3: the movies. But I think that if there were a

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Speaker 3: lot of hostile alien species out there, and out there

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Speaker 3: I mean not terribly far away, within one hundred light

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Speaker 3: years or something that's relatively next door astronomically speaking, I

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Speaker 3: think that if such societies existed and they, you know,

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Speaker 3: wanted to do us in, they would have done us

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Speaker 3: in a long time ago. I mean, you know, they

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Speaker 3: could presumably do that. I'm not sure what's in it

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Speaker 3: for them, and it would be expensive, but the fact

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Speaker 3: that they haven't done it suggests to me that, you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't show up on their radar.

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Speaker 2: As it were, if we found aliens, if you actually

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Speaker 2: saw one walk in, what do you think it would

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Speaker 2: look like?

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you know, I occasionally get phone calls from

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Speaker 3: people in Hollywood who want to know what the aliens

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Speaker 3: look like too, because you know, they're making a movie

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Speaker 3: that involves aliens and they want to get the aliens right,

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Speaker 3: which is to say, they want them to be scientifically plausible. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but of course, you know, the requirements of the story

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Speaker 3: usually don't allow you to do that because in most movies,

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Speaker 3: aliens are not friendly. I mean, if they're friendly, if

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Speaker 3: you're just going to palle around with them, like Et

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Speaker 3: the Extraterrestrial, I mean, that's not a very dramatic movie.

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Speaker 3: You want the aliens to, you know, have attitude and

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Speaker 3: flatten Downtown Loss Angelist or something like that. So it

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Speaker 3: pays to make them ugly looking. But of course ugly

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Speaker 3: is you know, in the eyes of the beholder, I suppose,

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Speaker 3: and an ugly alien might be attractive to other aliens.

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Speaker 3: But anyhow, nobody knows what they're going to look like

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Speaker 3: except this, and I have said this before because I

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Speaker 3: really think there's something in it, and that is that

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Speaker 3: any society that's able to, you know, travel between the

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Speaker 3: stars and maybe come to Earth or whatever. If they

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Speaker 3: can do that, they've already invented thinking machines were about

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Speaker 3: to do that. So I suspect that the majority of

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Speaker 3: intelligent aliens are just machinery. They're not you know, they're

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Speaker 3: not squishy guys soaked in mucus.

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Speaker 2: What if they're looking for a new home.

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Speaker 3: Set, well, well, I don't know that our home would

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Speaker 3: befit them. I mean, I don't know what their own

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Speaker 3: planet's like, but maybe their home planet, you know, has

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Speaker 3: nice temperatures like ours does, and has liquid We have

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Speaker 3: a lot of water on this planet and that may

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Speaker 3: be useful to some of the aliens. Maybe even the

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Speaker 3: atmosphere that we have might appeal to them too. But again,

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Speaker 3: I think that if they were relatively nearby and this

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Speaker 3: was something that appealed to them, they would have done

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Speaker 3: it already. I mean, this is the storyline of War

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Speaker 3: the World's Right, the HG. Wells story, that the Martians

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Speaker 3: decide that their own world is no longer very attractive

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Speaker 3: to them, and so they take over ours. But of

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Speaker 3: course the assumption is that they could survive on our world.

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Speaker 3: It turns out that they couldn't actually, But you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know that they would be so interested in

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Speaker 3: our world unless they were biological and had biology that

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Speaker 3: was somewhat similar to our own.

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Speaker 2: Who would take the forefront to release the information? Would

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Speaker 2: it be SETI would it be the governments? Who do

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Speaker 2: you think it would be?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's actually an interesting question. People have, you know,

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Speaker 3: sat around at various lunches and dinners talking about it.

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Speaker 3: There is a protocol we've talked about it occasionally, and

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Speaker 3: that says I mean, it's intended for people who are

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Speaker 3: trying to pick up the aliens on a radio telescope

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Speaker 3: or maybe even an optical telescope, an ordinary telescope. But

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Speaker 3: the protocol, which has no force of law, nobody really

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Speaker 3: has to listen to it. But what it says is

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Speaker 3: that if you do pick up a signal, you're supposed

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Speaker 3: to make that public knowledge. Now, you know a lot

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Speaker 3: of people and I run into them all the time,

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Speaker 3: think that that wouldn't happen, that the government would swoop

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Speaker 3: in and keep that story from getting out there, because

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Speaker 3: the public would go nuts if they knew that there

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Speaker 3: were aliens nearby. I don't believe that. But in any case,

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Speaker 3: you couldn't keep it secret anyhow, because if you were

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Speaker 3: to pick up a signal, or you were to see

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Speaker 3: something in space that you know, you didn't recognize and

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Speaker 3: you figured it was an alien construction, you would want

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Speaker 3: as many as scientists around the world to look at

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Speaker 3: that as you could get because you'd want as much information.

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Speaker 3: So the idea that you would keep it secret and

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Speaker 3: that the government would keep it secret, I mean that

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Speaker 3: you know that doesn't sound right to me. I don't

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Speaker 3: think you could keep it secret. I think I've mentioned

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Speaker 3: that I had a job summer jobs with the federal

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Speaker 3: government in Washington, and I had I think it was

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Speaker 3: top secret clearance for a while, right And you know,

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Speaker 3: I got to tell you, George, I was never terribly

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Speaker 3: impressed with the government's abilities to keep anything secret. And

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Speaker 3: something like this, which is after all, a science, it's

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Speaker 3: not a nuclear weapon or anything, I think it would

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Speaker 3: be impossible to keep it secret.

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Speaker 2: It is exciting, though, suff isn't it?

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Speaker 3: Well, it is. I think it's one of the most

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Speaker 3: exciting things going. I mean, the twenty first century may

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Speaker 3: be remembered as a century where we finally figured out that,

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Speaker 3: you know, there's somebody out there. I mean, that may

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Speaker 3: be the lasting legacy of our century.

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Speaker 2: Where is SETI located, Well, the.

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Speaker 3: SETI Institute, which of course is where I work. That's

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Speaker 3: a nonprofit research organization with you know, they're like one

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Speaker 3: hundred employees, but they're mostly research scientists, and we're located

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Speaker 3: in Mountain View. That's where I'm speaking to you from

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Speaker 3: mountain View, California, which is in the Silicon Valley. It's

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Speaker 3: where Google has its headquarters in case that helps you

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Speaker 3: at all.

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Speaker 2: Do you give tours?

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Speaker 3: Well, I have given tours. I mean sometimes people will

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Speaker 3: call up and say, hey, can I get a tour?

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Speaker 3: And if it's not you know, I mean, if it's

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Speaker 3: a day in which I have some time to give

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Speaker 3: it to her, which is actually quite quite a number

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Speaker 3: of days, I'm happy to give it to her. But

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Speaker 3: I have to. I always warn them. I say, look,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what you think you're going to see here,

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Speaker 3: but it's just a bunch of offices. The really interesting thing

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Speaker 3: to visit would be the telescopes themselves, the antennas, but

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Speaker 3: they're not here in the Silicon Valley. They're up about

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Speaker 3: a five hour or four hour drive north of San Francisco,

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Speaker 3: so you can go visit those two. But you know,

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Speaker 3: there're somehow I think, more interesting to visit than the

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Speaker 3: offices of the SETI Institute.

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Speaker 2: How was your tenure appared to other members of SETI.

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Speaker 3: My tenure you mean my personal tenure?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as long as you've been there.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, I've been there a long time now. I

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Speaker 3: joined the institute. I think it was nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety.

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Speaker 3: It's not for me to believe that but I think

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Speaker 3: it's true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I interviewed you back in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 2: six when you were at Arecibo and Puerto Rico, and

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Speaker 2: I was doing my local Saint Louis Nighthawk show.

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Speaker 3: Yep, I remember it. I remember it well, I can

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Speaker 3: still picture it. But yeah, and and also Art DELI

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Speaker 3: did the Art Bell Show a couple of times.

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Speaker 2: Yep. Filled in for Art for a while. And here

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Speaker 2: where I am now, and the rest is history.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, I have to tell you there's not that this

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Speaker 3: maybe matters terribly much. But I was on a cruise

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Speaker 3: up the Inside Passage to Alaska, you know, I was

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Speaker 3: given a lecture or two. And one of the other

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Speaker 3: people on board the ship was Jimmy.

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Speaker 2: Church, good old Jimmy, our buddy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, he substitutes for you, I think occasionally.

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Speaker 2: Very nice guy, Jimmy Church. He believes in extraterrestrials too.

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Speaker 3: Well, he does. Yeah, we had some interesting meals.

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Speaker 2: Since all this has been going on. What's your best

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Speaker 2: guess on what's going to happen over the next couple

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Speaker 2: of years.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's you know, it's always difficult to kind of

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Speaker 3: predict what's likely to happen in the research field, because

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Speaker 3: research is you know, it's exploration, and you never know

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Speaker 3: what's going to be discovered next year, ten years from now,

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Speaker 3: or anything like that. But the patient is that sooner

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Speaker 3: or later, you know we're going to be we're going

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Speaker 3: to pick up a signal that is not just interference

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Speaker 3: from some radar station, but a signal that's actually produced

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Speaker 3: by a transmitter on another world operated by aliens. Right,

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Speaker 3: that's the assumption, and that's the goal, and that's the intent,

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Speaker 3: and that's what would be absolutely the most interesting thing

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Speaker 3: we could do. But we haven't done that yet. We

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Speaker 3: haven't picked up yet. And why is that. Well, it

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Speaker 3: could be that there aren't any aliens, but I don't

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Speaker 3: believe that, and I don't think you believe that either.

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Speaker 3: The aliens are out there, but you know, we haven't

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Speaker 3: picked them up. Maybe they're broadcasting at very low power

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Speaker 3: levels and we just can't pick them up. Or maybe

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Speaker 3: they're broadcasting in particular directions and not our direction, so

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Speaker 3: there are lots of or maybe we're just listening on

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Speaker 3: the at the wrong spot on the radio dial the

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Speaker 3: wrong frequency. There are lots of reasons why we might

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Speaker 3: might not pick them up. But eventually, I think we will.

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Speaker 3: And what's eventually, Well, I've always said within twenty years.

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Speaker 3: I think I've been saying that for twenty five years.

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Speaker 3: But I think within a few decades we'll likely pick

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Speaker 3: something up. But you know, don't hold your breath.

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Speaker 2: More than half of the US population believes that aliens

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Speaker 2: are visiting the planet. That's astounding, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: It is astounding. But on the other hand, more than

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Speaker 3: half the population of the US believes in ghosts too.

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Speaker 3: And although you know, ghosts are fun to talk about,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you can go to the Smithsonian

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Speaker 3: or any other science museum or whatever, and you don't

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Speaker 3: find too much about ghosts because there's a much science there.

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Speaker 3: So the fact that a lot of people believe that

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Speaker 3: the Earth is being visited, I mean, that's interesting, but

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Speaker 3: it doesn't prove that Earth's being visited.

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Speaker 2: What would it get you to change your mind?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean I think that if you know, I

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Speaker 3: picked up the newspaper off my front porch tomorrow morning

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Speaker 3: and there was a photograph of an retrieved alien, I mean,

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Speaker 3: that would be certainly compelling evidence. Because the papers I

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Speaker 3: subscribe to are fairly reputable so you know that would

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Speaker 3: be that would be a big thing, but it would

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Speaker 3: also be immediately picked up by all the science publications.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it would be a big science story. And

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Speaker 3: so it's one of those things that if you claim

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Speaker 3: that you've made this discovery, you'd have to prove it

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Speaker 3: the same way you'd have to prove the discovery of

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Speaker 3: I don't know, cold fusion or some other science discovery.

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Speaker 3: You have to, you know, do an experiment or provide

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Speaker 3: photos or give tours or something right. And it's not

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Speaker 3: something that you would want to keep secret because then

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Speaker 3: you don't get the Nobel Prize. You don't get the

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Speaker 3: Nobel Prize. Or keeping something a secret.

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Speaker 2: That newspaper photograph might show, are buddy George Knapp shaking

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Speaker 2: hands with an.

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Speaker 3: Alien, Well, I'm glad they're on friendly terms.

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