1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Found almost exclusively in America in the western half of 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: the continent. The West rock art remains an enigmatic record 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: of thousands of years of the human presence. 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: Here. 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: I'm Dan Flores and this is the American West. Messages 6 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: from the past, the rock art of the American West. 7 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: For Europeans and Americans journeying into the West in the 8 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, the region passed the center line of the 9 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: continent was plains and mountains, deserts and seacoasts, people and animals, 10 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: And for them the whole stood as the purest, most 11 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: distilled version of John Locke's famous line in the beginning, 12 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: all the world was America. For old worlders, the West 13 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: loomed as a planetary touchstone of everything that was wild 14 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: and new. All the West seemed freshly made, a high 15 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: drama country awaiting a high drama destiny. But for a 16 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: good corrective to that kind of colonial near sightedness, sometime 17 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: in your life, do this. Drive across the remote San 18 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: Rafael Swell country of southern Utah to a detached piece 19 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: of Canyonlands National Park. Follow the signs into a particular 20 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: canyon of the many thousands of beautiful slick rock erosional 21 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: cuts in the American West. Then stroll along under shimmering 22 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: cottonwoods a little more than three miles until you come 23 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: to a particular sandstone alcove. There, in a grand wild 24 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: lands of stone, sand and blue sky, is a mural 25 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: that will at once silence all thoughts about how untouched 26 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: America was when Europe stumbled onto it. The Great Gallery, 27 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: the name by which we know the round shouldered, armless, enigmatic, 28 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: ghostly beings that decorate this sandstone alcove, seems to possess 29 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: the odd and rare ability to pull gobsmack visitors out 30 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: of the present and into a different time, a different continent. 31 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: The Great Gallleries humanoid figures stretch across sixty feet of 32 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: vertical slick rock. They await the modern gaze. In adornments 33 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: of gousy red and snowy white. Most figures are as 34 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: tall as you are. Many are solidly colored. Others are 35 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: festooned with snakes and torso designs like tattoos. But it's 36 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: the Galley's reigning protagonists, carving in a cluster of figures 37 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: on the wall's left margin, who quickly draws every looker's attention. 38 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: There are other figures almost as large, But this sort 39 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: of humanoid, sometimes called the Holy Ghost, with a light 40 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: bulb head, glowing eye sockets, and geometric body patterning, is 41 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: the only figure who appears surrounded by a robe retinue. 42 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: The Holy ghost consorts are painted with red hematite, and 43 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: the ancient artists who rendered the scene portrayed them in 44 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: various sizes to create the three D effect of a 45 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: powerful king or maybe a god, trailing followers at every 46 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: remove of distance and perhaps of time. So the American 47 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,839 Speaker 1: West was a new, undiscovered part of the world when 48 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: we old worlders found it. Yes, maybe that assumption needs 49 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: a reset. Archaeologists estimate the painted images of the Great 50 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: Gallery are between two thousand and four thousand years old. 51 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: Its artists are more likely artists were Archaic around earlier 52 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: than the Anasazi. The so called Old Ones of the Southwest. 53 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: Ancient Rome may not have yet begun dominating Europe and 54 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: Africa when the Great Gallery appeared in this canyon. England 55 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: and France were millennia from becoming nation states. In twenty 56 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: twenty six, the United States is celebrating its two hundred 57 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: and fiftieth anniversary as a nation. The people who painted 58 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: the Glowing eyed being and his companions in the Great 59 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: Gallery were here eight to sixteen times farther back in 60 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: America's past. If the West can be said to possess 61 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: several grand mythologies, one of them its deep time human story, 62 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: is is exemplified by the Great Gallery and thousands of 63 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: other pictographs and petroglyphs across the West. These surviving ancient 64 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: portrayals of the human presence are their own evidence of 65 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: a mythological time. Art and graffiti on enduring rock, reaching 66 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: out of the deep past down to us. We were 67 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: here the West. Rock art says, there were people right 68 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: here and so very long ago. You can't fathom such 69 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: a passage of time, nor did we ever imagine your existence. 70 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: But what we left for you is the still visible 71 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: proof of how mind and consciousness have long expressed themselves Today. 72 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: We're reasonably certain that Coyote stories, the West's oldest literature, 73 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: extend centuries back into the dimness of American time. Coyote 74 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: was a Paleolithic god, so some Coyote stories may be 75 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: ten thousand years old. The hundreds of thousands of rock 76 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: art images painted on are incized or pecked into rocks 77 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: are the visual analogy to the West's coyote stories. Efforts 78 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: to date some of them indicate that there is Western 79 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: rock art that legitimately reaches eight thousand years into the 80 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: American past. Rock art is a catch all term for 81 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: what the study of these images categorizes as pictographs and 82 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: others called petroglyphs. The Holy Ghost and his Companions in 83 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: the Great Gallery are pictographs figures native artisans painted onto 84 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: rock walls, and a variety of colors reds, yellows, and 85 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:52,559 Speaker 1: blues made from local natural resources. Petroglyphs, on the other hand, 86 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: are images that long deceased Western inhabitants either carved into 87 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: rock with knives, are pounded onto rock surfaces with stone 88 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: hammers and chisels as an artifact of the American presence. 89 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: Rock art is scattered in most suitable locations everywhere we 90 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: humans have tried, which is to say, all over the planet. 91 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty six, the oldest rock art that science 92 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: has so far found is a human handprint on an 93 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: Indonesian island that's been dated to sixty seven thousand, eight 94 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: hundred years before our own present moment in time. In 95 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: North America, there are still a small handful of rock 96 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: art sites east of the Mississippi, but by many times 97 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: over the greatest number of such sites in the US 98 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: are in the West. The West's widespread rock art is 99 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: yet another trait that makes it exceptional among American regions. 100 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: I once had a yellow cat I named Kerouac. He 101 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: was a cool cat who forever pawed at the keyboard 102 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: of my laptop. Probably he was jealous that I paid 103 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: the keys and mousepads so much attention, But watching him, 104 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: I convinced myself he was puzzling over what possible role 105 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: something like a keyboard was playing in the world he 106 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: and I shared. Animal science has now taught us that 107 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: neither self awareness nor handed down culture sets us much 108 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: apart from our fellow animals, beyond our obvious cleverness in 109 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: refining those two traits. But is there another species out 110 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: there that tries to explain the world. To be a 111 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: human animal is to wonder at things beyond our ken 112 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: because we've long tried to manipulate nature to make our 113 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: lives better. We're the animal that tries to figure out 114 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: how things work, and the animal that tells stories to 115 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: illuminate our insights. Maybe Kerouac really want puzzling over what 116 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: a keyboard meant. Most likely not. We humans, on the 117 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: other hand, witness something inexplicable and do our best to 118 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: tease out its meaning and role. There are many aspects 119 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: of a human story that elicit the puzzlement I used 120 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: to assign to my cat Kerouac, coming face to face 121 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: with the internal lives of people who existed in past 122 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: realities as one of them, and it's a powerful one. Once, 123 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: for a few weeks I got to read the thoughts 124 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson put down on yellowed parchiment written in his 125 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: own hand on one page with a thumb smudge from 126 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: some all too human accident, still visible back when the 127 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: authorities still let you do it. I once stood atop 128 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: the Mayan sacred pyramid Kupol Khan, in the ancient city 129 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: of chichen Itza, wheezing from the climb, but you for it. 130 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: At the human impulse to construct a monumental shrine to 131 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: the morning star on Hawaii's Big Island, I've knelt silently 132 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: before a black lava rock sculpture, a Hayo shrine to 133 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: the goddess Pele that Kamea Maya, the first had built 134 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: prior to attempting the unification of all the islands. In 135 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: all these places, I felt an absolute connection with minds 136 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: like my own, with ideas we'd call vision or ambition. 137 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: It's the same feeling I've had time and time again 138 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: investigating rock art sites across most of the American West. 139 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 1: Like my cat, I may not understand their function or 140 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: their messages, but the human intent to leave something to 141 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: the future is universal and unmistakable, and I do at 142 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 1: least get that. And in fact, some of the most 143 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: powerful connections I've ever felt to the human continuum have 144 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: come from simply standing awestruck before the imagery laid down 145 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: by the West's ancient inhabitants. Rock Art, as a name 146 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: for these images is a term some modern Native people 147 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: don't favor, largely because they don't consider the imagery to 148 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: be art. Whatever it's called, it's found everywhere in the West. 149 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: There's exposed rock, from the Great Plains to California, from 150 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: the Northern Rockies to the Southwest. But very much like 151 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: the Great Pleistocene beasty areas painted on the walls of 152 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: limestone caves in Western Europe between twelve thousand and thirty 153 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: five thousand years ago. Western rock art imagery can seem inscrutable. 154 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: It regularly forces us to grapple with cultural value systems 155 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: unfamiliar to us, human symbols we struggle to make sense of. 156 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: Confronted with strange emblems of a world we assume we know, 157 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: what we're really being fussy about is having to admit 158 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: just how optional are our own precious beliefs. We humans 159 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: might be the same animals everywhere, but our cultures are 160 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: like computer software, the number of which can seem infinite. 161 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: A Montana hunter gatherer of five thousand years ago might 162 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: strike us as odd with explanations of how the world works, 163 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: why things happen, as willfully strange, But with compassion and imagination, 164 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: it's usually possible to see that behind the cultural wrapping 165 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: there's another human being we recognize. That's the way you 166 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: have to approach rock imagery, because no other elements from 167 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: the ancient American past provides this kind of intimacy with 168 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: the people who were here hundreds or thousands of years ago. 169 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: Flint tools like points or scrapers, pieces of pottery, fragments 170 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: of woven sandals or baskets were, in a sense all 171 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: tools objects of util and economy. But images are the 172 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: way our minds symbolize the world. When you stand wonderingly 173 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: in front of Utah's Great Gallery, you're getting to peer 174 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: into the minds of the ancients and catch a glimpse 175 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: of how they interpreted and thought about the cosmos and 176 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: how it worked. Most Westerners have favorite rock art sites, 177 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: but before proceeding to a few of my own, I 178 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: ought to at least mention theories of meaning, as well 179 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: as techniques for dating some of these sites. Rock art 180 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: is notoriously difficult to date, but there are ways to 181 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: determine a sides age. Subject matter is one obvious one. 182 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: If the imagery features guns or horse mounted warriors or 183 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: other post contact scenes, it's obviously only four hundred years 184 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: old at most. Many older sites are covered to various 185 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: depths by desert varnish and manganese oxides produced by biotic 186 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: activity Varnish lamination atop of sites. Images can sometimes be 187 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: dated in less exposed locales. The age of calcium carbonate 188 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: deposits that form over artwork is datable with a technique 189 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: called uranium series analysis. Researchers haven't necessarily used these approaches 190 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: extensively in the West, but in a few select sites 191 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: they've yielded some very old dates, not Clovis or fulsome 192 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: old but eight thousand years old and more. As for 193 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: theories about the intentionality of rock art, they range from 194 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: the utilitarian to some version of the spiritual pilgrimage. Garrick Mallory, 195 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: researcher with the US Bureau of Ethnology a century ago, 196 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: famously argued for the literal. He believed that rock art 197 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: images were a native form of writing, similar to the 198 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: glyph inscriptions of the Mayans. Today, a pretty vanishingly small 199 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: minority of researchers follow Mallory. Top scholars like Polyschaftsma, who's 200 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: written extensively on the rock art of the Southwest, are 201 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: more apt to argue meaning on a site by site basis, 202 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: like painted buffalo robes and the so called Ledger paintings 203 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: done by plainspeople in the late eighteen hundreds. Some rock 204 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: art is autobiographical. It can even recount historical events. Other 205 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: sites may constitute territorial markers or plan specific images. Existing 206 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: Indian peoples, who almost always know the rock art sites 207 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,479 Speaker 1: in their country and sometimes still use them for ceremonial 208 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: and religious purposes reject many of the non native interpretations 209 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: out of hand. In fact, like the Shoshones and crows 210 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: on the peripheries of Wyoming's Big Horn Basin, a major 211 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,239 Speaker 1: site of a kind of rock art often called Dinwoodie, 212 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: argue that it was not their human ancestors at all 213 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: who painted or carved the images in their country. In 214 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: their traditions, rock art was the work of spirit beings, supernaturals. 215 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: In this view, the images are not in the modern 216 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: sense of such things historical or territorial, are clan derived, 217 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: and they certainly are not art. The images are religious. 218 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: They recount the look of spiritual adventure travel now beyond 219 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: being awestruck at the cosmos and at the existence and 220 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: intricacies of life itself. I'm not religious. I like to 221 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: science the shit out of my explanations. So, with all 222 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: respect for the power religious explanations have for many people, 223 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: the scientific method does indicate that the chances of genuine 224 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: supernatural activity having produced the West rock art literally is 225 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: vanishingly remote. That, however, doesn't mean that a large percentage 226 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: of rock art isn't deeply religious in nature. In fact, 227 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: the prevailing opinion among trained archaeologists these days, is that 228 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: shamans may have executed much of the rock imagery in 229 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: the West. If that's true, and I suspect it is, 230 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 1: I like to fall back on the Scandinavian anthropologist Achy 231 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: Hulkrantz's definition of a shaman. The shaman, hul Krantz once wrote, 232 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: is a social functionary who, with the help of guardian spirits, 233 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: attains ecstasy in order to create a rapport with the 234 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: supernatural world on behalf of his group members. Shamans achieved 235 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: their ecstasy in a variety of ways, sometimes through fasting, 236 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: sometimes through repetition or rhythmic movement, sometimes through the use 237 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: of psychoactive drugs. These kinds of stressful physical ordeals, sometimes 238 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: where initiation are ceremonial rites. Sometimes a result of them 239 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: was to record mental images of the experiences induced, perhaps 240 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: to invoke supernatural beings in a spirit world to take 241 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: interest and intervene in human affairs. What we may have 242 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: in many rock art image sites, in other words, are 243 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: representations of vision states are of a religious condition of rapture. 244 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: Because some of the particular details seen in rock images 245 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: appear worldwide for a good many years now. They're experts 246 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: who think that some designs that appear in petroglyphs and 247 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: pictographs are endemic to the hard wiring of the human 248 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: brain and nervous system in altered states, and readers who 249 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: like me or children of the sixties and seventies may 250 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: recall this rather well. The brain tends to see geometric 251 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: patterns or cascades of dots swirling spirals, which science tells 252 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: us are called phosphenes, brain created patterns you can sometimes 253 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: see behind eyelids by closing your eyes tightly. Hallucinogens like 254 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: the cactus peote used in ceremonies of the Native American 255 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: Church can induce them, as well as a sense of 256 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: the self leaving the physical body and flying off to 257 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: parallel worlds where the physical body can't go. I say 258 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: it as a witness at least to the phosphene effect. 259 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: Once sitting cross legged in the sand on the banks 260 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: of the Rio Grande in trans Pacos, Texas, four or 261 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: five fresh peyotes into the experience, I watched and wonder 262 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 1: as an endless stream of geometric designs swept over me 263 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: from behind, then disappeared into the far distance in front. 264 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: It was an astonishing display that put me in mind 265 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: of meso American wal freezes and art. Only later did 266 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: I realized that my eyes had been shut the whole time. 267 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: For those who remember the seventies, these flights became the 268 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: vehicle for the teachings of an anthropologist turn writer named 269 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: Carlos Castaneda, who, in a flotilla of wildly successful pop 270 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: anthropology books, created a Yacki Indian shaman named Don Juan. 271 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: Anthropologists doing more serious work have subjected the Paleolithic cave 272 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: images of Europe to this shaman analysis with success, and 273 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: in the American West they've done the same with the 274 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: famous pictographs of the lower Pecos River in Texas, and 275 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: with the Bighorn Basins Dinwoody images and some of the 276 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: petroglyphs of California. The near life sized Dinwoody images pect petroglyphs, 277 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: the experts assume are from the deep Shoshonian inhabitation of 278 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: this part of the West, are the most prevalent on 279 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: the western edge of the Bighorn Basin, in places like 280 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: the legend Rock Art side the Thermopolis area are in 281 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: the canyons exiting the eastern flanks of the Wind River Range. 282 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: The Denwoody figures are absolute showstoppers. The imagery appears to 283 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: show humans, but humans merged with other animals, the term 284 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: of art for which is theyanthrope twitty. Humanoids often have 285 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: the clawed feet of birds. Sometimes the hands are also clawed, 286 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: and the figures frequently have wings in Denwoody sites, and 287 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: this is also true of images like the white Shaman 288 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: along the Lower Pecos in Texas. The figure's arms are 289 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: often in the classic shaman position, raised overhead and held wide, 290 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: as if welcoming visions or maybe launching into flight on 291 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: journeys to the world of the supernaturals, or perhaps raised 292 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,719 Speaker 1: and held wide to radiate power to control nature or 293 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: animals to make things happen in the ordinary world of 294 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: the living. The Denwoody shamanic tradition seems to have first 295 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: appeared on the rock faces of the Big Horn Basin 296 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: six thousand, eight hundred years ago, and some of the 297 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: figures may be barely more than a century old. That's 298 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: a very long representation of a form of artfulness and 299 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: shamanic tradition. Another culture's rock art I've been privileged to 300 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: walk among many times is that of the Ancestral Pueblos 301 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: and their Pueblo Descendants, which decorates the lava cliffs and 302 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: dykes that surround me where I now live in New Mexico. 303 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: A National Park Service unit called Petroglyff National Monument preserves 304 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: thousands of the images the Pueblos long ago packed into 305 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: the black cliffs along the Rio Grande on the west 306 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: edge of Albuquerque. Climbing its trails to pick your way 307 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: through white lined images on black boulders, Petroglyff National Monument 308 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: has sometimes given me a sisteine chapel feeling, at other 309 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: times the open mouth reaction one has on the Las 310 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: Vegas Strip. There are elaborately costumed cuts sheena deities on 311 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: these rocks, god messengers the Pueblos still reenact in their ceremonies. 312 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: Having once stood in freezing December weather in Zuni Pueblo 313 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: and watched a towering shaliko kachina placking its two foot 314 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: wooden beak while dancing a Solstice blessing inside a new home, 315 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to separate the sacred from the entertaining, 316 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: and the rock art representations of such beings. I also 317 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: can't help imagining young Native couples wandering through here on 318 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: date nights a thousand years ago, holding hands under a 319 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: full moon, as white outlined visions leaped out from the 320 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: silvery black. Such images from the ancients tend to be stylized, 321 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: sometimes seemingly chaotic, often recognizable, but pushed in what appears 322 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 1: outrageous directions. In a word, they're abs They're exactly the 323 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: inspiration that led twentieth century painters like Pablo Picasso and 324 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: Joan Miro to develop modern art. Pueblo imagery here and elsewhere, 325 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: is mind bending in variety and detail. There are mythical 326 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: creatures like giant horned water serpents, but also real rattlesnakes, 327 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: often too in tandem. There are thunderbird, eagles, badgers, coyotes, bears, 328 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: all revered animals the pueblos preserved. There are gleaming four 329 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:41,479 Speaker 1: pointed planets, parades of priests, sometimes all with erections, an 330 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: endless variety of different cloud terraces, the home of the Kachinas. 331 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: Those appear in conjunction with water serpents, mountain lions, sometimes 332 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: a woman's nether parts. There are faces with or without masks. 333 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: Handprints link these, zigzag lines, vials, fields of dots, warrior figures, 334 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: protected by Circular Shields Petroglyph Monument preserves a particularly well 335 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: done Central American parrot, a colorful macaw not native here 336 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: but imported for priests and ruling families among the pueblos, 337 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: has a way to signal wealth and status. One other 338 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: region in the West where I've long hiked to rock 339 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: art sides is the Great Plains, a vast locale of 340 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: thirteen thousand years of human inhabitation, but where most of 341 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: the rock art I've personally explored is actually historic, obviously 342 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: done by Plains Indian peoples who were acquiring horses and 343 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: firearms and interacting with Europeans. The White Cliffs of Riding 344 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: on Stone Provincial Park along the Milk River in southern 345 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: Alberta preserves the largest collection of rock art anywhere on 346 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: the Great Plains, A sacred site for the Montana Blackfeet 347 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: and the Alberta Blackfoot peoples, Writing on stone presents a 348 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: labyrinth of both painted and carved images. When I roamed 349 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: the cliffs there in the early two thousands, I was 350 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: impressed with what I thought was the richest and most 351 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: elaborate portrayal of horse mounted battle scenes I'd ever seen anywhere. 352 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: The northern Great Plains is also the setting of a 353 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: great tradition of rock imagery archaeologists called shield figures shield designs, 354 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: which at first glance appeared to represent circles or wheels, 355 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: where a visual and ceremonial appreciation of a military tradition 356 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: usually pictographs. The painted circles portray shield bearing warriors and 357 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: may have been done as a result of vision quest 358 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: by individuals who were warriors rather than shamans. The classic 359 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: site for the shield bearing warrior figure is Pictograph Cave 360 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: in the Crow Country south of Billings, Montana. Another part 361 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: of the Great Plains that presents really intriguing rock art 362 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: is the Southern High Plains, and the part I've especially 363 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: explored for rock art sides is the cap Rock Canyonlands 364 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: country of West Texas. Cowhead Mesa in the canyons of 365 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: the Yano West Toccado's eastern escarpment is a typical bread 366 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:32,239 Speaker 1: loaf shaped mesa, indistinguishable at a glance from dozens of 367 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: others in these canyonlands. Unlike the rest, it's currently under 368 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: investigation by the National Register of Historic Places because of 369 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: its rock art. Compared to farther west, there's not a 370 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: great deal of rock art here on the southern high plains. 371 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: Most of it's in the valley of the dry Semarron 372 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: River and in Rocky Dell. In the Canadian Breaks, there 373 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: are a dozen or more minor rock art sides in Pallo, Buro, 374 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: Tully Blanco, and Yellow House canyons, and like the pictographs 375 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: in Rocky Dell, many of them seemed traceable to those 376 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: traveling artists traders from Pacos and Santa Domingo Pueblos and 377 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: other pueblos in New Mexico. The Rocky Dell pictographs, which 378 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: a few years ago some idiot outlined in chalk for 379 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: his photographs, show a horned serpent like those that appear 380 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: frequently in the Galistale basin near Santa Fe and far 381 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: out on the plains. On Yellow House crossing Mesa, I've 382 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: seen a cocapelli etch tint of the sandstone cocapell. The 383 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: humpback flute player was the Pueblo equivalent of the traveling salesman, 384 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: a slippery rogue with a pack of goods who could 385 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: sucker men and coax women into joining him in the bushes. 386 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: The cocapelli on Yellow House Crossing Mesa may be his 387 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: most easterly appearance in the whole West. The rock Art 388 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: on Cowhead Mesa, south of Lubbock, though, is intriguing for 389 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: two reasons. For one, the Brazos River Headwaters Canyon, where 390 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: it's located, is the rock art capital of the Southern Plains, 391 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: with nearly three dozen sites. Second, a remarkable number of 392 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: those sites tell historic era Plains Indian stories, stories of 393 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: mounted warriors and shamans, wagon trains, and raids. The rock 394 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: Art on Cowhead Mesa, in fact, seems to reveal an 395 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: Indian perspective on a famous historical event in Texas history, 396 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: the so called San Saba Massacre of the year seventeen 397 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: fifty eight. The Indian raid on the Spanish mission of 398 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: San Saba had its origins in the desire of Franciscan 399 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: priests to mission eyes and convert Texas Indians to Christianity. 400 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: When the lapond Apaches asked for priests to come among them, 401 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: the Franciscans in Texas interpreted the request to mean that 402 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: the Lord had at last delivered the Pagans unto the fold. 403 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: They built the Apaches' new mission about one hundred miles 404 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: northwest of San Antonio along the San Saba River. It 405 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: was in effect and in fact, a blood sacrifice. What 406 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: the Apaches really intended was to intrude the Spaniards into 407 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: the eye of a tornado sweeping down on them, a 408 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: horse mounted tornado of new buffalo hunters from the north 409 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: who entered history as the Comanches. A year after the 410 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: San Saba Mission was built, a large force of Comanches 411 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: shoved their way through the gates, killed the two priests, 412 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: and burned all the buildings to the ground. Later, they 413 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: added humiliation to the lesson routing a Spanish army sent 414 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: to punish them by capturing its artillery and chasing the 415 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: Spanish survivors around the prairie like chickens. If the rock 416 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: art on Cowhead Mesa depicts what it seems to depict, 417 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: one group of the Comanches involved in the sacking of 418 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: the San Saba Mission headed up the Brazis River into 419 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: remote canyons at its head. There they carved into the 420 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: sandstone face of the Mesa. Their impressions of the event. 421 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: Mission buildings like layered cakes with crosses on top, flames 422 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: licking up through them, round about men with the frocks 423 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: of priests others wearing the three cornered hats of the age, 424 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 1: and scenes of personal combat. One glyph is of a 425 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: bovine with a long ropey tail and spiraling horns, an 426 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: Indian impression of a Spanish longhorn. It's the figure that 427 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: gives the Mesa its name. Most powerful of all the 428 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: scenes on Cawi and Mesa, though, is one showing a 429 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: looming figure in Comanche buffalo headdress, a shaman with outstretched 430 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: arms in a classic pose of making things happen. A 431 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: question that's long puzzled me is why rock art was 432 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: done where it was, Why this particular Mesa. For example, 433 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: archaeologists tend to point to things like nearby water, protection 434 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: from the weather, superior rock surfaces, and so forth, But 435 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: I suspect other things were going on. The geographer ye 436 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: Fu Twan once worked on a theory he called topophilia. 437 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: It's one that took on the perceptions some older cultures 438 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: have that there are sacred places in landes, even genie 439 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: loki or spirits inhabiting particular power spots. Okay, nonsense maybe, 440 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: but one culture's nonsense can sometimes be another's religion. And 441 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, I have been upfront and 442 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 1: personal with the spirit that inhabits a particular rock art 443 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 1: site on the Canadian River in New Mexico. It happened 444 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: on a still fall day with a little haze in 445 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: the air. I was with a girlfriend who was doing 446 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: a master's thesis on plains rock art, thoughtfully parking my 447 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: old Fiat in a pasture where the horses got to 448 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: have a fair try at licking off its remaining paint. 449 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: We had height a tributary upstream a mile or so 450 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: to a site some obscure scientific paper reported to be there, 451 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: and it was. We found it in a small hemispheric 452 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: rock amphitheater on the south bank of the creek. Walking in, 453 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: we had passed excellent locations for rock art, had seen 454 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: nothing and had grown dubious. But the pumice walls of 455 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: this little grotto once we got there, were covered top 456 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: the bottom with scores of stunning spirals, shields, nebula, animal spirits, 457 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: and dream images. Katie was out of sight below me. 458 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: I was standing on a rock shelf beside the uppermost petroglyphs, 459 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: still mildly puzzling over why this particular spot. When the 460 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: spirit appeared for the first time. I was framing a 461 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: photograph when I heard the noise of it. Thinking a 462 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: rattler might be rustling in the grass behind me, I froze. 463 00:35:54,280 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 1: The noise readily audible. A steady whirring grew louder. Turned around. 464 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't a snake. Whatever it was, it was in 465 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: mid air, about fifteen feet away from and slightly below 466 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: where I stood on the rim rock. I registered an 467 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: impression of Katie and the grass below. Open mouthed our 468 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: gazes converged on an indistinct visual disturbance in mid air, 469 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: A whirring plans dervish that was marching in stately fashion 470 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: around the circumference of the rock. Cove to stun, to 471 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 1: speak or even gesture. We wordlessly watched it walk past 472 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: us and down to the creek, where, once it hit 473 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: the cottonwoods, it assumed the form of an ordinary whirlwind. 474 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 1: Rational Western minds can be satisfied. Then twice more during 475 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: the next hour, the spirit appeared again, followed the same path, 476 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: emerged from the Boulder Corral as a small whirlwind that 477 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: I would have argued earlier that day was merely the 478 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: creation of the peculiar topographical qualities of the place. But 479 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: the people who had covered this little spot with symbols 480 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: of their culture were dealing with a very tangible entity 481 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: anyone who stood here could see and hear. Now, having 482 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: been face to face with their reality, I understood a 483 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: little more about the imagery from ancient America. 484 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,879 Speaker 3: All right, Dan, So I just want to begin this 485 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 3: with sort of simple point or observation that you made 486 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 3: in this episode that kind of stuck with me, and 487 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 3: that is, when you look at scrapers and bowls and 488 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 3: other artifacts material culture from the past, there's a utilitarian Yeah, 489 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 3: you understand what that was for and why someone did it, 490 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 3: and how they used it, and probably how they thought about. 491 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 2: It, just more or less. 492 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 3: But when you when you look at rock art, there's 493 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 3: this question of intent and motivation. Like if you find 494 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 3: an arrowhead on the ground, you think, oh, someone was here, 495 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 3: I wonder what they're doing. When you find rock art, 496 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 3: you think what were they trying to say? Or what 497 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 3: were they thinking? And there's an added depth to that 498 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 3: sort of gap between you and whoever this artifact originated with. 499 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean I think you got the primary point, Rand, 500 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,760 Speaker 1: That's definitely that's it. I mean, we have various ways 501 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: of sort of touching the past and the west, which 502 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 1: of course is for one thing, it's a very deep past. 503 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 1: It goes back more than twenty thousand years. And so 504 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: we've got things like points and pottery and a variety 505 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: of different tools, which, as you said very well, I 506 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 1: mean you can kind of discern looking at them handling 507 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: them what the intent was, even something about how they 508 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 1: were made, but a lot about purpose. And I mean 509 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: we have footprints, we have a variety of things, but 510 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: what we have that probably communicates the hugest body of 511 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: information are these rock images that appear all over the West. 512 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: In that instance, you're looking sort of directly into people's 513 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: minds and having them instruct you and how they see 514 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: the world around them, and that's a different thing. That's 515 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: another level, to be sure, then looking at pure tools, 516 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,919 Speaker 1: and it's in a lot of ways it becomes a 517 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: mystery because the cultures that were here are pretty mysterious 518 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: to us. I mean, human cultures all over the world 519 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: tend to be mysterious one from the other, and so 520 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: a lot of what the rock art story is about 521 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: is standing in front of this almost bewildering array of 522 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 1: images and signals from the past and trying to figure 523 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: out what in the world does it mean, what is 524 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,280 Speaker 1: it trying to convey? 525 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you you raised this point as well about 526 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 3: sort of intended audience. You know, whenever I look at 527 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 3: a piece of rock art, I wonder how long was 528 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:50,919 Speaker 3: this legible passers by? Maybe it wasn't legible to other 529 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 3: people at the time. You know, when I drive by 530 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 3: some graffiti on a bridge, often I have no idea 531 00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 3: what somebody was tempted to convey. But and then you think, well, 532 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 3: maybe I'm part of the intended audience. Maybe it's something 533 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 3: like a time capsule, right, And so I don't know 534 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 3: that there's any we can arrive at any firm conclusions there, 535 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 3: but it's one of those things that always makes me 536 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 3: wonder that there's a message in there somewhere, who's it 537 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:17,479 Speaker 3: for and when? 538 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,280 Speaker 2: And in what context was this meant to be understood? 539 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's very definitely a way of thinking about audience, 540 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: which of course is as writers we do. You think 541 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 1: about who you're writing for, who you're trying to convey 542 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: a podcast topic too, And what you assume with most 543 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: rock art is that the audience is the local community, 544 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: but we don't really know that. I mean, and some 545 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,760 Speaker 1: of this rock art I mean has lasted for so long. 546 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: I mean, some of the rock art in the West 547 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: we know is eight thousand years and older. And that's 548 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,919 Speaker 1: not an indication I don't think. I think that people 549 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: who were doing it were necessarily thinking of some future audience. 550 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: I don't think, for example, the people who did the 551 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: Great Gallery in CanYa Lands Park in Utah had us 552 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: in mind as an ultimate audience. But they may well 553 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: over the generations have assumed that, yeah, this is intended 554 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: for down the timeline, for other people to see. And 555 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: I do think that probably most of it was intended 556 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: for a local community, maybe at the very very moment 557 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: of time when it was done. But you know, it's 558 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: another one of those mysteries that attends to it. 559 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:53,760 Speaker 3: Yet there's another aspect to this topic, right, and drawing 560 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 3: that distinction between utilitarian items and this art, and that 561 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 3: the art is very firmly anchored in place. 562 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and. 563 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 3: You know, if in some instances, if it's removed to 564 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 3: a museum something like that, it loses a lot of 565 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 3: its meaning. Because I can think very clearly, for whatever reason, 566 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 3: the past few years I've encountered a lot of rock 567 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 3: art along the Green River near Echo Park in the 568 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 3: plains of Montana, the Upper Missouri Breaks in Montana, and 569 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 3: in my mind the place is as much an object. 570 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 3: It's like, why hear, what was that person doing here? 571 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 3: And why was this place significant to them? So another 572 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 3: aspect of this were just sort of left to wonder. 573 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I attempted in the end of this 574 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: particular script to address at least one of the experiences 575 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 1: that I've had trying to ascertain when looking at a landscape, 576 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,359 Speaker 1: you can see all sorts of suitable spots, and those 577 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: seem to be nord in favor of a particular one. 578 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: And of course this happened to do with an experience 579 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: I had quite a number of years ago in New 580 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: Mexico with the girlfriend who was doing a thesis on 581 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: rock art, and we were going to this you know, 582 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: kind of remote faintly known even among archaeologists sight and 583 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: trying to as we were going in, trying to figure out, so, 584 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: why is there this looks like a great place for 585 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: rock art right here. Why is there nothing here? And 586 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: then we get to this one particular spot and it 587 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: is just festooned with imagery of every kind, just stunning 588 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: spirals and nebula and dream figures and creatures, and and 589 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: it happened to be I think, associated with with the 590 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: particular dynamics of that spot on the ground, which was 591 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,799 Speaker 1: catching these whirlwinds that were coming through and not being 592 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,479 Speaker 1: prepared for that, and having that happen while we were there. 593 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: I mean, that was one of the more stunning, open mouthed, 594 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: gobsmacked experiences I have had, because there were many long 595 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:16,840 Speaker 1: moments sort of almost visibly seeing this thing, this spinning object, 596 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: go through this little cul de sac of images where 597 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: I had no idea what it was, but it did 598 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: give me an insight that I think I would have 599 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: never had before into why some spots were picked, and 600 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: so has made me wonder every time I find some 601 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: out of the way a piece of rock art, is 602 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: there something about this spot. It may not be the 603 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: generator of a whirlwind, but something about the spots I 604 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: think tend to have struck people in the past as 605 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: some sort of special or sacred place in order to 606 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: put these images, And so you're exactly right, the location 607 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: of them is oftentimes as important as the images that 608 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: appear there. 609 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking of another really memorable encounter I had. 610 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,320 Speaker 2: This was in the Green River. 611 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 3: And there was a scene of big horn sheep what 612 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,760 Speaker 3: I assumed to be big horn sheep, but their horns 613 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 3: sort of went straight up and then began to arc back, 614 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,880 Speaker 3: and they looked like ibex. They didn't look like bighorn sheep. 615 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 3: And you make the point that these are abstract representations, 616 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 3: right like your inclination. I think if you were to 617 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,399 Speaker 3: not think about it would be this is someone who 618 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 3: didn't know how to draw a bighorn sheep. But you 619 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 3: could say the same thing about Picasso, you know in Guernica. 620 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 3: It's just it's it's it makes it makes you take 621 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 3: a step back and think about what is it about 622 00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 3: the big horn that they're trying to convey, right. 623 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly I mean. And some of the creature imagery, 624 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,399 Speaker 1: like there is a horned serpent motif that is very 625 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: common among the Pueblo people of the Southwest, and I 626 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,319 Speaker 1: mean I've seen one on a particular rock art side 627 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,359 Speaker 1: that I mentioned in this script. It's called Rocky Dell 628 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: in the Texas Panhandle. That's like about twenty feet long. 629 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it is a gigantic rendering of a horned serpent. 630 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,320 Speaker 1: But what you have to assume about a horned serpent 631 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: is that it's a camera. It's not a real thing. 632 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: It's something out of pueblo stories, creation stories. But those 633 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 1: kind of figures often appear interspersed with animals you can 634 00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: readily identify, with eagles and coyotes and badgers with you know, 635 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:58,440 Speaker 1: with the nails of their front paws well represented to 636 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: show a digging animal. And so it's a it's kind 637 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 1: of a mix of things, but it's often done in 638 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,840 Speaker 1: a very stylized way. And I mean, just as you said, 639 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: this is really the discovery of a lot of this 640 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,160 Speaker 1: kind of art, not only from America but from other 641 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,360 Speaker 1: parts of the world. It was kind of the impetus 642 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: for the emergence of abstract modern art. People like Picasso 643 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:26,239 Speaker 1: and Paul Gogan, for example, were fascinated with this kind 644 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 1: of imagery, and Picasso, of course in particular, began to 645 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:31,720 Speaker 1: incorporate it into his work. 646 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one other. 647 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 3: I've found encountering rock art to be a very kind 648 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 3: of head spent, like a dizzying experience, you know, and 649 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,400 Speaker 3: it makes you sort of look at your surroundings in 650 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 3: a new way and try to put yourself in someone 651 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 3: else's mind. And the best comparison I could come up 652 00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:01,839 Speaker 3: with was like you go to a medieval cathie and 653 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,399 Speaker 3: you sort of have a sense of why they did this, 654 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,400 Speaker 3: you know, but but you'll never actually be able to 655 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 3: understand that person's lived experiences and the sort of the 656 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,800 Speaker 3: topography of their imagination in that moment. 657 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 2: But it's like a very it's a very powerful. 658 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,759 Speaker 3: Experience to encounter these things in the places where they 659 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:25,400 Speaker 3: were created. 660 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. 661 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: I mean it's like, you know, my best sort of 662 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,640 Speaker 1: remembrances of things like that are like going to the 663 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 1: Mayan Pyramids and the Temple of Kugl Khan that I 664 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,720 Speaker 1: mentioned in one of these episodes that I had before 665 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,480 Speaker 1: they wouldn't let you do it anymore. I got to 666 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: actually climb to the top of that temple uh and 667 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,880 Speaker 1: Chichen Itza and sort of witness what it all looked 668 00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:02,759 Speaker 1: like from up there. And it's much like rock art 669 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,400 Speaker 1: in a way to be in the presence of something 670 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,600 Speaker 1: like that that ancient people did, And it's probably one 671 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,839 Speaker 1: of the best examples you'll ever have of an old 672 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,160 Speaker 1: truism that we use in history that the past is 673 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,080 Speaker 1: a foreign country, I mean, and sometimes the past is 674 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: a really foreign country where you really struggle to understand it. 675 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,759 Speaker 1: And that's kind of fascinated me. Some of the episodes 676 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 1: that are coming up sort of take on that same 677 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,959 Speaker 1: topic of first contact and what happens when two people 678 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,319 Speaker 1: who have no prior experience with one another meet for 679 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,160 Speaker 1: the first time and try to understand one another. In 680 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,560 Speaker 1: this instance that we're talking about with rock art, you 681 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,640 Speaker 1: don't have the second person of the first contact to 682 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,640 Speaker 1: help you understand what's going on. Even modern native people 683 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,480 Speaker 1: in most instances can't determine what the rock art in 684 00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: their country often means. They can recognize some of it, 685 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 1: but not all of it. In the instance where you're 686 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,200 Speaker 1: standing there by yourself looking at some of these images 687 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,040 Speaker 1: and trying to figure them out, I mean, it can 688 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:12,080 Speaker 1: be the puzzle of an entire afternoon, and I've certainly 689 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:13,320 Speaker 1: done that plenty of times. 690 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,759 Speaker 3: Well, Dan, thanks, I appreciate this one because it kind 691 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 3: of took me back to some of these moments in 692 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 3: my life and kind of got to reimagine all that 693 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:24,319 Speaker 3: one more time. 694 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,400 Speaker 1: Well, you'll get to see plenty more of it, I know, 695 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,359 Speaker 1: roaming the West because there's a lot of it out there. 696 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:29,319 Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks Dan,