1
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,000
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

2
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,960
Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

3
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:09,559
Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

4
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800
Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

5
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439
Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

6
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759
Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

7
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720
Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

8
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279
Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

9
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

10
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

11
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

12
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

13
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

14
00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 4: Hey, Paul, Hi, Kate, how are you?

15
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,880
Speaker 1: I'm doing well? You look rugged? Is that the right word.

16
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,039
Speaker 4: I don't know if rugged is the right word.

17
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,040
Speaker 1: I've ever seen you with facial here before.

18
00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:13,840
Speaker 2: What's going on? Is there some sort of did you

19
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:15,440
Speaker 2: lose a bet or did you win a bet?

20
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:15,880
Speaker 1: I don't know.

21
00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,959
Speaker 3: No, you know, it's actually this time of year. I

22
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,759
Speaker 3: really didn't have to do any appearances or film anything,

23
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,080
Speaker 3: and it's like, you know what, I'm just going to

24
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,360
Speaker 3: change my look just for the hell of it. And

25
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:33,960
Speaker 3: the last time I was able to do. This was

26
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 3: during the pandemic where obviously wasn't doing anything, and so yeah,

27
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,120
Speaker 3: so I just decided to let it all go. And

28
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,400
Speaker 3: then it got a little unruly, so I shaped it

29
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,199
Speaker 3: up a bit. But it's probably a very temporary look.

30
00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,720
Speaker 1: As my guess, does it not get itchy.

31
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,920
Speaker 3: It gets itchy down in the neck and so you

32
00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,680
Speaker 3: know when you see you know, so you see some

33
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 3: of these guys that really grow those huge beards and

34
00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 3: it's all the way down onto their neck. I don't

35
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 3: know how they can stand that. But once the hair

36
00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,760
Speaker 3: gets long, it becomes soft, you know, so it does, it's.

37
00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 4: Not really itchy.

38
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,280
Speaker 3: I just don't know how those guys can can really

39
00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,440
Speaker 3: stand having that neck beard aspect. And then like for me,

40
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,920
Speaker 3: my beard is not super thick through like the cheeks

41
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,239
Speaker 3: and the jawline. And so that's why generally the goateea

42
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,160
Speaker 3: is more suitable for me because I grow thicker in

43
00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,440
Speaker 3: the chin mustache area than on the sides of the face.

44
00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,360
Speaker 2: I didn't know that there would be variation and where

45
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,480
Speaker 2: a man grows hair on his face, but I guess

46
00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,200
Speaker 2: that makes sense. So you don't want the patchy beard

47
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,160
Speaker 2: plus a really thick goatee, and that's why you go

48
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 2: for this. I get it, all right, I understand.

49
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I gotta grow what I can grow

50
00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,239
Speaker 3: and chop off what I can't.

51
00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,000
Speaker 2: But in California versus Colorado, do you feel like your

52
00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,400
Speaker 2: looks changed at all? I mean, do you have to

53
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:54,160
Speaker 2: conform to the rugged mountain man look versus in California

54
00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:55,160
Speaker 2: might be a little different.

55
00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,640
Speaker 1: I'm serious. Have you cha? Have you become more rugged

56
00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,120
Speaker 1: since you've been in Colorado?

57
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,720
Speaker 3: Well, you know, well, most certainly being retired and living

58
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 3: in Colorado, I've taken advantage of the outdoor life much

59
00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:08,960
Speaker 3: more than I could, you know. But a lot of

60
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 3: that just had to do was when I was in California,

61
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,680
Speaker 3: I was working full time, you know, so I didn't

62
00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 3: have the opportunity to potentially do some of the activities

63
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,920
Speaker 3: that I can do now. But also, for twenty four

64
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,320
Speaker 3: years of my career, I wasn't allowed to grow facial

65
00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 3: hair with the exception of a mustache. And I wasn't

66
00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,680
Speaker 3: going to just have a mustache. So it wasn't until

67
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 3: I got to the DA's office where I was allowed

68
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 3: to at least do some facial hair.

69
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 2: I have been in work environments before. I'm not going

70
00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,360
Speaker 2: to name which ones. No piercings, no tattoos, cover it

71
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,200
Speaker 2: all up. I did not realize you would have to

72
00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,120
Speaker 2: do that working for a DA's office.

73
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 4: Really for the sheriff's office. I couldn't grow up.

74
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:49,400
Speaker 1: Beer sheriff's office.

75
00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:49,720
Speaker 3: Wow.

76
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:50,320
Speaker 1: Okay.

77
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:52,520
Speaker 3: And when I did go to the DA's office, I

78
00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,760
Speaker 3: did do the goatee look for a period of time.

79
00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 3: But you know, it's all grey. It makes me look old,

80
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 3: so I just it's again. This is going to be

81
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,080
Speaker 3: a temporary look'll it'll go away.

82
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, this will be an interesting story for us

83
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,840
Speaker 2: to transition into a very conservative environment. We have not

84
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:15,520
Speaker 2: really done a lot of hospital centered stories before in history.

85
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,240
Speaker 2: You know, usually I feel like we're in a potter's field,

86
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 2: we're in the countryside, or we're at like a really

87
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,160
Speaker 2: we're in a gritty city, but in the eighteen hundreds.

88
00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,440
Speaker 2: But this is actually a little bit more recent. And

89
00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 2: we're talking about the sixties, which is woohoo, you know,

90
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,880
Speaker 2: very recent. And we are also talking about New Jersey

91
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,080
Speaker 2: and it kind of an environment.

92
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,240
Speaker 1: Where there's a lot happening a lot.

93
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of sciencey stuff in here that

94
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,120
Speaker 2: I hope you can drag me through because though I

95
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 2: went to a science centric high school, I am relatively

96
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,359
Speaker 2: clueless about a lot of science. I have to do

97
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 2: a lot of looking up and stuff. But that's why

98
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 2: you're here, That's why I rely on you.

99
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,520
Speaker 3: Oh boy, I have a feeling this is going to

100
00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,240
Speaker 3: be a stump the dummy type episod.

101
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so.

102
00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:07,039
Speaker 2: Well, maybe we'll see. Okay, let's set the scene. So

103
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,600
Speaker 2: all of the action happens at a place called Riverdale Hospital,

104
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,920
Speaker 2: which is in Oradell, New Jersey. I've been to Jersey,

105
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,600
Speaker 2: but not this particular place, have.

106
00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:16,839
Speaker 4: You No, not really.

107
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,599
Speaker 3: You know, I've flown into the airport there and what's

108
00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,280
Speaker 3: at New Work, but have never explored New Jersey at all.

109
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,000
Speaker 2: Well, this is New Jersey in the nineteen sixties. It

110
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,719
Speaker 2: doesn't mean much except I think this is going to

111
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,719
Speaker 2: be a story of what they did then. Is there

112
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,000
Speaker 2: anything we could have changed today coming to different conclusions?

113
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 2: To me, it's a little bit also of a mystery.

114
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,680
Speaker 2: So hopefully you can help me out with this. But

115
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,119
Speaker 2: like I said, science medically, We'll see how it goes.

116
00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,680
Speaker 2: And I'm going to try to pronounce everything correctly, but

117
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,159
Speaker 2: just feel free to correct me if I watch something here.

118
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:52,559
Speaker 4: Okay, I'll do my best.

119
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:53,440
Speaker 1: Okay.

120
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,040
Speaker 2: This is a string of deaths that happen at one hospital,

121
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,360
Speaker 2: and the big mystery right now is going to be,

122
00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,560
Speaker 2: of course, who's the one doing it? Because at an

123
00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 2: active hospital, even though this is private, there are still

124
00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,280
Speaker 2: a lot of people with access to a lot of

125
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,320
Speaker 2: medical items, a lot of medicine drugs, So it's not

126
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,799
Speaker 2: as easy as you would think to figure out what's

127
00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,159
Speaker 2: happening with this. So again, medical stuff, let me know

128
00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,520
Speaker 2: what you think here. Our first person is a seventy

129
00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,160
Speaker 2: three year old man named Karl Roebeck, and this happens

130
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,159
Speaker 2: in December of nineteen sixty five. So Carl comes to

131
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,320
Speaker 2: Riverdale Hospital. He is going for an operation to repair

132
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,800
Speaker 2: a hernia, And just for context, Riverdale is described as

133
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:42,480
Speaker 2: a small private osteopathic facility in Bergen County, New Jersey.

134
00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,640
Speaker 2: So he is supposed to have an operation to repair

135
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,240
Speaker 2: his hernia. So the chief of surgery takes a good

136
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,640
Speaker 2: look at this guy and says that he doesn't think

137
00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 2: Carl is going to be a good candidate for an

138
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,599
Speaker 2: operation because he has a heart condition. So this is

139
00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,919
Speaker 2: in the sixties. I have no idea where we stand

140
00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,839
Speaker 2: with whether or not you should have surgery or not.

141
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,920
Speaker 2: But this chief of surgery has a great reputation and

142
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,720
Speaker 2: he looks at him and says, I don't know, I'm

143
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,680
Speaker 2: concerned about this guy's heart condition. So instead of performing

144
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,320
Speaker 2: the surgery, the chief of surgery says, you know, I

145
00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,760
Speaker 2: think we should take another look at his health and

146
00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,680
Speaker 2: put him on an intravenious strip. So we don't really

147
00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,680
Speaker 2: know why, and we don't know if the chief of

148
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,520
Speaker 2: surgery was in charge of this, this is what he

149
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,080
Speaker 2: thinks though, should happen. So no surgery for Carl, And

150
00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,560
Speaker 2: I wonder is that a valid risk the heart condition?

151
00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:34,960
Speaker 1: Would that be a risk today?

152
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,400
Speaker 2: Do you think that would be taken into consideration or

153
00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,280
Speaker 2: are there things that can mitigate having heart problems during

154
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,320
Speaker 2: a surgery my understanding.

155
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,200
Speaker 3: You know, of course, there's been dramatic improvements in administration

156
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:51,320
Speaker 3: of anesthesia and monitoring the patient during surgery, and probably

157
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:57,840
Speaker 3: today they're much better at minimizing the risk to somebody

158
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,720
Speaker 3: like Carl's condition with this art back in the sixties

159
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,360
Speaker 3: probably was more risky. So they're going, oh, if we

160
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 3: put him under and whether it's the anesthesia or the

161
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 3: stress on the body from the surgery itself that may

162
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,520
Speaker 3: increase the likelihood that he could have a fatal cardiovascular event.

163
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,280
Speaker 2: Well, Carl and his family say, okay, they put him

164
00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 2: on a drip. All the doctors confirm that this is

165
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,520
Speaker 2: a fine way of going about it, including the chief

166
00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,040
Speaker 2: of surgery. Nurse puts him on a drip, and The

167
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,280
Speaker 2: New York Times says, five minutes Carl dies from having

168
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,880
Speaker 2: this needle inserted. Five minutes. That seems very fast. And

169
00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,240
Speaker 2: again we're trying to figure out what's intentional and what's not.

170
00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,720
Speaker 2: But five minutes is alarming to at least a reporter

171
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,680
Speaker 2: with the New York Times who was looking into this.

172
00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:52,440
Speaker 3: So he's got this IV line that's being put into him,

173
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,800
Speaker 3: and I imagine, you know, initially what the IV drip

174
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,240
Speaker 3: has is just saline solution, right, It's just all they're

175
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,040
Speaker 3: doing is they're trying to you know, hydrate him, and

176
00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:06,080
Speaker 3: it's a mechanism to be able to administer drugs. And

177
00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,640
Speaker 3: so within five minutes there must have been something that

178
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:15,200
Speaker 3: was already within that source for the IV line that

179
00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,320
Speaker 3: killed Carl. And what is you know, it Was it

180
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,000
Speaker 3: something that affected his heart? Was it something like an opioid,

181
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,559
Speaker 3: you know, a fatal overdose of an opioid. Was it intentional?

182
00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,800
Speaker 3: Is this accidental or was this just Karl just decided

183
00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,520
Speaker 3: to code out and it just was coincidental with the

184
00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 3: IV being put into him.

185
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 2: That's what the medical examiner thinks. He opens up Carl

186
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,400
Speaker 2: after he's died, and he looks and he says, man,

187
00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,679
Speaker 2: this guy has a bad heart, damaged heart.

188
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,760
Speaker 1: He had a heart attack. That's clear. So this is

189
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:47,679
Speaker 1: the explanation.

190
00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,520
Speaker 2: It becomes weird, but again, the whole point of the

191
00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,559
Speaker 2: story is trying to kind of suss out what is intentional,

192
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:54,920
Speaker 2: what's not.

193
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 1: Intentional, if anything's intentional at all.

194
00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,920
Speaker 2: We just know that Carl came in with a bad heart,

195
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,920
Speaker 2: needed a surgery, they put him on an IV, and

196
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 2: then he dies pretty quickly afterwards. So the medical examiner,

197
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,480
Speaker 2: I don't know if he thinks it's a coincidence. Maybe

198
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,640
Speaker 2: he thinks that it's just sort of the trauma around

199
00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,440
Speaker 2: him that's happening. But he says he had a heart attack,

200
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,320
Speaker 2: is what he believes. So I guess we're just going

201
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:17,439
Speaker 2: to wait and see, right.

202
00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and My question is is, well, what

203
00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 3: kind of heart attack did he have. Did he have

204
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,200
Speaker 3: a blockage, you know, did he have this massive blockage

205
00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,960
Speaker 3: and that is what killed him, or did he have

206
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,320
Speaker 3: an electrical issue did he go into aphib you know,

207
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:39,480
Speaker 3: where now the heart is not it's electrical aspects aren't

208
00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,280
Speaker 3: functioning right, and it's not effective at pumping the blood.

209
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,360
Speaker 3: And you can have these ventricular fibrillations where now the

210
00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 3: heart is just kind of sitting there almost in spasms

211
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,320
Speaker 3: and there's no blood flowing, and that can be fatal

212
00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,480
Speaker 3: as well. If it's a blockage, then I would say

213
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,440
Speaker 3: that sounds like it was coincidental. He was it was

214
00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,520
Speaker 3: his time to go, had nothing to do with the

215
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 3: insertion of the ivy or the saline or whatever is

216
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 3: in the saline's solution. But if it was this electrical disruption,

217
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,280
Speaker 3: well that could be caused by a drug that was

218
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:15,160
Speaker 3: put into Carl.

219
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,920
Speaker 2: I don't have a note from the medical examiner about that.

220
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,600
Speaker 2: He just says, you know, one plus one is to

221
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:21,680
Speaker 2: damaged hard.

222
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,800
Speaker 1: This is what it looks like. Yeah, so things move on.

223
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,120
Speaker 2: That happened, if you remember in December of nineteen sixty five.

224
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,760
Speaker 2: So now we are three months later, four months later,

225
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,680
Speaker 2: March of nineteen sixty six, and we are at the

226
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,240
Speaker 2: opposite end of the spectrum with age. So Carl was

227
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,560
Speaker 2: seventy three and in bad health. Now we have a

228
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,920
Speaker 2: four year old girl named Nancy Savino and she is

229
00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:51,240
Speaker 2: having surgery for suspected appendicitis at Riverdale. Now I did

230
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,160
Speaker 2: not know, I mean, would a kid really have appendicitis?

231
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,960
Speaker 2: That that seems young, But I don't know anything about that.

232
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,439
Speaker 3: Well, you know appendicitis, I mean it's inflammation of the appendix.

233
00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,560
Speaker 3: And this is a common thing that does happen where

234
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 3: now you get an infection and if it bursts, it

235
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,040
Speaker 3: becomes a very serious If the appendix itself bursts, and

236
00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,120
Speaker 3: now you have this bacteria that gets out into the

237
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,760
Speaker 3: body cavity, the abdominal cavity, that is a very very

238
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,600
Speaker 3: serious condition. That's why when somebody comes in and has

239
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,720
Speaker 3: this appendicitis, oftentimes they act quickly because they don't want

240
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,080
Speaker 3: it to get to a point to where now the

241
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,800
Speaker 3: bacteria is able to get to other parts of the body.

242
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,520
Speaker 2: Well, she winds up with a young surgeon whose name

243
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,880
Speaker 2: is doctor Stanley Harris, and he's important. Later on, so

244
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,640
Speaker 2: Stanley looks at Nancy Savino and says, yep, time to

245
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,920
Speaker 2: have an operation. He puts her under, takes her in.

246
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,880
Speaker 2: Doctor Harris removes several intestinal cysts from Nancy's body the

247
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:51,960
Speaker 2: night she's admitted.

248
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: Oh god, is that appendicide? Is that what that is?

249
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 3: The cyst sounds like that was secondary? Did she actually

250
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 3: have appendicitis? Or when he goes in and he's dealing

251
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,480
Speaker 3: with taking the appendix out or looking at it, he's

252
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,200
Speaker 3: also finding cysts and deciding that I need to remove those.

253
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:08,600
Speaker 1: That's my understanding.

254
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,920
Speaker 2: Right, he's there and he's like, I'm gonna take these outlaw,

255
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 2: I'm here, take notes, Paul.

256
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot, there's a lot of medical stuff.

257
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,280
Speaker 3: Well, and generally, you know, my understanding is is that

258
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,400
Speaker 3: cysts are are typically very benign. That the only time

259
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,439
Speaker 3: that they really are of major health concern is if

260
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,400
Speaker 3: they're pressing against something they shouldn't be pressing against it

261
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:37,000
Speaker 3: as a grow, or if they are causing the patient pain.

262
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if there's anything from something that they

263
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,839
Speaker 3: designate as a cyst that would require like, oh, this

264
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,000
Speaker 3: is an immediate health concern.

265
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,600
Speaker 2: Okay, so these are probably not painful, They're not causing

266
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,480
Speaker 2: her pain. Certainly not pain separate from the appendicitis.

267
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,000
Speaker 3: I think it all just depends on where the cysts are.

268
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,839
Speaker 3: The cysts sound, at least right now, secondary to the appendicitis.

269
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,480
Speaker 2: Well, doctor Harris says, the op went off really well.

270
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,840
Speaker 2: Everything was fine. The four year old stays in the

271
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 2: hospital right after the surgery and she's recovering. But within

272
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,439
Speaker 2: twenty four hours she takes a real hard left turn

273
00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 2: and her condition really worsens and she passes away twenty

274
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,960
Speaker 2: four hours after this operation. So the medical examiner is

275
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,640
Speaker 2: back at it. He does an autopsy and this is

276
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,360
Speaker 2: according to the Daily News newspaper, and autopsy revealed no

277
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,360
Speaker 2: medical explanation, so her death was ascribed to end quote

278
00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,400
Speaker 2: undetermined physiological reaction.

279
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,160
Speaker 4: What is that means?

280
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 3: They just don't know, you know, that's fundamentally what it

281
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 3: is is that she was alive yesterday, she had the surgery,

282
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 3: she died. They are not seeing any physical aspects when

283
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 3: they do the autopsy that they can attribute her death to,

284
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 3: you know, And this is where, well, what does the

285
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,160
Speaker 3: tox say, what kind of drugs are in her system?

286
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,120
Speaker 3: You know, what's the medical history leading up to the

287
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,600
Speaker 3: surgery and then post operative in terms of what is

288
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 3: she being exposed to. So I'm imagining, you know, this

289
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 3: medical examiner is taking all of this medical history into account,

290
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,200
Speaker 3: but still is not able to determine a cause of death.

291
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it doesn't sound like ran any toxicology stuff.

292
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, that's the impression I get. I have

293
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,840
Speaker 2: a quick question. So this is again described River Dell

294
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,440
Speaker 2: is described as a small, private osteopathic facility.

295
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 1: Do I say that right? Osteopathic?

296
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,040
Speaker 4: You said that right?

297
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,360
Speaker 3: You know, osteo is a bone, but let me just

298
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 3: let me just look that term up. Yeah, the second

299
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 3: thought I had regarding the term osteopathic is correct. This

300
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,200
Speaker 3: is more of this holistic, whole body type of medicine.

301
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,400
Speaker 3: So it's kind of different than going in and okay,

302
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,880
Speaker 3: you're seeing a specialized surgeon. It appears that they really

303
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:05,160
Speaker 3: address things on a whole body, holistic scale, and I'm

304
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,200
Speaker 3: really not familiar with how that type of medicine differs

305
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 3: from traditional medicine.

306
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,040
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm showing you the hospital, not a huge hospital.

307
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 2: Obviously looks like one level to me. But they did

308
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 2: say small in private.

309
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,000
Speaker 4: Oh that is small.

310
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, so you're showing me a photo of the

311
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 3: front of this Riverdale hospital and it is I mean,

312
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 3: that's like the size of maybe three convenience stores stuck together.

313
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,720
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that is tiny. I mean it must

314
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,280
Speaker 3: just have just a handful of rooms and surgery areas.

315
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,320
Speaker 3: I would be concerned about going into a facility that

316
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 3: looks like this and having some sort of major surgery

317
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,080
Speaker 3: being done well.

318
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 2: And in the sixties, I just wonder how many of

319
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 2: these small private facilities were around. This is not you know,

320
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 2: a major city or anything where it is so on

321
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 2: the flip side of this, this is a small facility,

322
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 2: but they're doing surgeries it sounds like daily, probably, so

323
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,119
Speaker 2: they have to be accustomed to death. It doesn't seem

324
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,760
Speaker 2: like they are alarmed at all by the seventy three

325
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,640
Speaker 2: year old Carl and by four year old Nancy dying,

326
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 2: because that just happens in surgery sometimes. I'm assuming, right,

327
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 2: there's got to be stats on how many people they've lost.

328
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they track that, you know, I know, the

329
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,919
Speaker 3: hospitals track that very carefully. And when they start having

330
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,240
Speaker 3: you know, spikes and deaths, then they really have to

331
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,480
Speaker 3: key in us to well what is going on, you know,

332
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,200
Speaker 3: because do we have, and this is where there's that

333
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:40,680
Speaker 3: very critical interplay between the medical aspect and the corners

334
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 3: or the medical examiners. Even though you possibly have, you know,

335
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,959
Speaker 3: patients that are dying under a doctor's care within a hospital,

336
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 3: you need to have this independent entity, the coroner medical

337
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,879
Speaker 3: examiner to really double check and see, well, what exactly

338
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,439
Speaker 3: is the true cause of death here, and there is

339
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 3: a checks in balance, if you will, if it's done appropriately.

340
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,320
Speaker 3: But of course, things that happen within hospitals, it can

341
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 3: be covered up, you know, and so that's part of

342
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,880
Speaker 3: that checks and balances where now the death investigators are

343
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 3: going in and collecting the body. Now, hospitals often have

344
00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 3: their own pathologists and oftentimes these pathologists will conduct autopsies

345
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 3: on the patients who have died within that hospital.

346
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 4: Setting.

347
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,040
Speaker 2: Well, we have another death coming up pretty quickly. So

348
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,280
Speaker 2: we had Carl and December of a heart condition. Then

349
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 2: in March we had Nancy, cause of death unknown. The

350
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 2: next month after Nancy, which is April of nineteen sixty six,

351
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,720
Speaker 2: we're right in the middle between the two of them.

352
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,639
Speaker 2: Twenty six year old woman named Margaret Henderson visits the

353
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:51,800
Speaker 2: hospital after she's experiencing severe abdominal pains. Doctor Harris once

354
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 2: again operates on her with another surgeon, this time a

355
00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 2: different Riverdale surgeon named Robert Livingston. The chief of surgery says,

356
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,680
Speaker 2: this is a bad idea. I don't think you all

357
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 2: should do this, but he says, I want more X

358
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,760
Speaker 2: rays before you do surgery. They insist these two doctors,

359
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 2: and Margaret has a surgery and it seems like it

360
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 2: went well. It's said that Margaret's recovery was quote uneventful.

361
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,560
Speaker 2: She stays in the hospital through the night and then

362
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,600
Speaker 2: six point thirty the next morning. She is described by

363
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 2: hospital staffers Margaret the patient as tense and apprehensive. She

364
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 2: said that she talked to her nurse and she was

365
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,160
Speaker 2: complaining that she was having trouble swallowing and she had

366
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,520
Speaker 2: pain in her legs, in her chest.

367
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,200
Speaker 1: This was not where she had surgery. She had abdominal surgery.

368
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:45,360
Speaker 1: What is happening?

369
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 2: Do we have any idea at this point, Let's just

370
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 2: say we don't know anything. She doesn't haven't had a

371
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 2: drip or anything unusual so far.

372
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I really don't know in terms of

373
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 3: you know, this kind of this anxiety, the pain in

374
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 3: the lay et cetera. I'm not sure what's going on

375
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 3: with Margaret.

376
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that I mean obviously tense and apprehensive. Must just

377
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,240
Speaker 2: mean something's happening to her body and she doesn't understand it.

378
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,760
Speaker 2: There's an ivy drip, but it's a mixture of glucose

379
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,119
Speaker 2: and water, is what.

380
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 1: The nurse says. You know, the two guys who did

381
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 1: surgery on her, of course are concerned.

382
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 2: But you know, I wonder if the chief of staff

383
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,400
Speaker 2: at this point is kind of saying, I.

384
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:25,680
Speaker 1: Told you not to do this.

385
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 2: Look what's happening. You know, I wanted more information. I

386
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 2: wanted more X rays. So if he's talking about X rays,

387
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,920
Speaker 2: this chief of staff x rays on her abdomen, what

388
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 2: would show up on an X ray that would make

389
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,640
Speaker 2: him not want to do surgery on an abdomen.

390
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 3: I'm unsure because, of course, you know the X rays,

391
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,920
Speaker 3: it's very difficult to see much of the soft tissue.

392
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 4: You know, That's why X rays.

393
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,679
Speaker 3: Work great when you're starting to talk about the bone,

394
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 3: but soft tissue you can see aspects and potentially if

395
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 3: you have maybe a very deaf mass that it would

396
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 3: show up on an X ray so I could see

397
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 3: where if they're concerned that this abdominal pain that Margaret

398
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 3: is having is maybe maybe a cancer or some other

399
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 3: type of growth inside of her, that possibly the X

400
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 3: ray would be able to show its location better. It

401
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 3: is odd that you have these doctors kind of debating

402
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 3: what is the right course with Margaret.

403
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 2: And going against the chief of surgery. I guess they

404
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 2: talked him into it and he allowed it to happen.

405
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: But now the both doctors who performed surgery on her,

406
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 2: of course, are concerned, and they should be because that

407
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 2: morning she died. Twenty six year old you know who

408
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 2: came in for surgery died. They do an autopsy, the

409
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 2: medical examiner said she died. From here we go a

410
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 2: big word for me, acute hepatic necrosis. Okay, And I

411
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,199
Speaker 2: don't know if you need a definition that NCBI defines

412
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: it as a sudden severe liver hepatic cell death that

413
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 2: is typical of toxic injury to the liver.

414
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: Toxic injury. What is that?

415
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: Is that poison or could that be alcohol or some

416
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: kind of recreational drug.

417
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 3: Well, the fact that the pathologist is saying it's acute

418
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 3: is indicating that this wasn't a chronic condition. This wasn't

419
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 3: something like she had been abusing alcohol over a long

420
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 3: period of time, and of course that can have an

421
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 3: impact on the liver. The term hepatic is referencing the liver.

422
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 3: The term necrosis is the death of the tissue, the

423
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 3: death the cell death. The fact that it's acute indicates

424
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 3: that her liver was exposed to something that caused this

425
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 3: liver cell death to happen very quickly. The liver is

426
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 3: such a critical organ to the body. It is sort

427
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 3: of like the clearing house of all the toxins in

428
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 3: your body. Alcohol gets, you know, metabolized in the liver.

429
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 3: You know, various toxic substances get rendered harmless by you know,

430
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 3: being metaboliz in the liver, and it really keeps our

431
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 3: body in this homeostasis. So everything is all that the

432
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 3: chemistry within our body is in the right balance. And

433
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 3: when the liver becomes bad, things get out of whack.

434
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 3: And if it's acute like this to cause death this quickly,

435
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 3: I don't think the necrosis of the liver is what's

436
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 3: killing Margaret so fast. It's a symptom. Whatever toxin is

437
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 3: in her body is killing the liver cells. But that

438
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 3: toxin is also going systemic and that's what's causing Margaret

439
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 3: to die.

440
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 2: Well, the medical examiner is concerned because he does talk

441
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 2: to the surgeons and they say that she did not

442
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 2: have any signs of jaundice before she died. That's the yellowing.

443
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 2: Both my kids had jarndyce, which he said would have

444
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 2: been expected in this type of liver failure.

445
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: She did not. This was unexpected for the medical examiner.

446
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, no job Again, this is just showing

447
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 3: that this wasn't a chronic liver condition. It almost sounds

448
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: like overnight Margaret ends up having her liver exposed to

449
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 3: something that is so toxic to the liver cells that

450
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 3: you have this necrosis. But she didn't stay alive long

451
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 3: enough for this damage to her liver to manifest and

452
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 3: other typical symptoms that you see with damaged livers over

453
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 3: the course of days or weeks, or you know, if

454
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 3: it's more chronic than that, such as jaundice. So that's

455
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 3: where I kind of go back to, Okay, something really

456
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 3: damaged her liver, but the fact that her liver was

457
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 3: so damaged, that's not what's killing her. It's whatever damaged

458
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 3: the liver is what is killing her.

459
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 2: So that happened in April with this twenty six year old.

460
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 2: Now we're moving up in age again to August of

461
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six. There's a fifty nine year old named

462
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: Frank Biggs. He comes in for surgery on his ulcer

463
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 2: at Riverdale. I didn't know that you had surgery on ulcers.

464
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: That's just me being naive. I thought there were other

465
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 2: ways to treat it, but maybe not in the sixties.

466
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: My guess is, you know when you have like I've

467
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 3: I've had ulcers, you know, like in my stomach, which

468
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 3: just by taking some over the counter medicines I was

469
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 3: able to clear up. But you can have an ulcer

470
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 3: that goes so deep into the tissue where you can

471
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 3: actually perforate, the ulcer can actually perforate whether it be

472
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: the stomach lining or the esophagus lining, and there that

473
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 3: tissue's not going to heal. So I think that's probably

474
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 3: why Frank is having surgery, is that this is a

475
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 3: severe ulcer and there was fear that if it was

476
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 3: left unchecked, it was going to, you know, really become

477
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: a major major problem.

478
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 2: Well, this is a no brainer, of course. His chief

479
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 2: of surgery says, this guy needs an operation. So Frank

480
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: goes and has an operation and everything is fine.

481
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: He recovers well.

482
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: But about an hour after the operation, nine year old

483
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: appears weak. He has difficulty breathing, and they said he

484
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: was bluish in color. What does that sound like to you, Well.

485
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 3: If he's blue, then I would say that he is

486
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 3: struggling to have oxygen delivered, you know, throughout his body.

487
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 3: It's like an anoxya of some sort.

488
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: So the chief of surgery says, give him a stimulant.

489
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 2: And he is given a stimulant, and his heart is

490
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: I've never heard of this before. His heart is massaged externally.

491
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,959
Speaker 1: Have you heard that before? How do you do that?

492
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 3: The only thing I can think of is it's almost

493
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 3: as if it's like a CPR, you know, where you

494
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 3: have some external chest compressions. I've, of course, you know

495
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 3: seen the shows you know, like Er where you know

496
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 3: during an emergency situation where now the surgeon is having

497
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 3: to go in internally and is massaging the heart.

498
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 4: But I'm not sure what an external massage of the

499
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 4: heart would would be.

500
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: I think this is CPR.

501
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: So he has given a stimulant I'm assuming to kickstart

502
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: his heart. He has given CPR, but he dies twenty

503
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 2: minutes later, and a medical examiner looks at him and

504
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: says that he died from an excessively rapid heartbeat caused

505
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 2: by a large amount of urine in the bladder.

506
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: Told you there's a lot of medical stuff. You look confused.

507
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 3: Rapid heartbeat by having too much urine in the bladder. Yeah,

508
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 3: I mean that almost sounds like there are individuals who

509
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 3: have died because of this vagus nerve that gets over

510
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 3: stimulated or hit or something. I'm wondering if that's what

511
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: the pathologist, if there's some nervous system aspect to where

512
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 3: now Frank his bladder is so full that it's having

513
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: a nervous system impact on the regulation of the heartbeat.

514
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 4: That's what it sounds like to me. But that's I've

515
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: never heard of such a thing.

516
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: So it's unclear if they used an IV in this

517
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,239
Speaker 2: situation too, if we're thinking about toxicology. But we just

518
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 2: know Frank is dead, and now we have a seventy

519
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 2: three year old, a four year old, a twenty six

520
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: year old, and this fifty nine year old. And I

521
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 2: know age doesn't matter, but it runs the gamut. So

522
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 2: here is one.

523
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: Of the issues.

524
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 2: That starts worrying some of the doctors, including doctor Harris

525
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 2: Stanley Harris. He starts counting, and in total, between nineteen

526
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: sixty five and nineteen sixty six, thirteen patients die at

527
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: this very small hospital, smaller than a super Walmart, either

528
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: right before or after what are widely considered safe routine

529
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: surgical procedures. This is an anomaly, and doctor Harris lost

530
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: five patients, and this was alarming to him. And it

531
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: turns out in this story it sounds like doctor Harris

532
00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: is a good guy because he thinks something is going bad,

533
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: but he doesn't know what's happening. He teams up with

534
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: another colleague named doctor Alan Lance, and they start looking

535
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: at all of the records of these people, and they

536
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: start looking at who they have in common, and they

537
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 2: noticed that most of the patients passed away after being

538
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: observed or treated by one specific surgeon, Riverdale's chief of surgery,

539
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: and his name was doctor Mario Haskalovich.

540
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: So all of these.

541
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: People have this guy in common. And now you've got

542
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: two surgeons who work under him saying he's killing people

543
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: and we don't know why.

544
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, So another one of these doctor deaths and This.

545
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 2: Is why I wanted to bring this case to you

546
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: because I know there's a lot of stuff that I

547
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: think you probably feel like is out of your wheelhouse.

548
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: But the psychology behind this story is what's the most

549
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: interesting thing. If he did it, if it can be

550
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: proven that he was responsible and that these were not

551
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: accidents or coincidences, what is the mindset behind a doctor death?

552
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: I don't get it.

553
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 4: Well.

554
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: This is a type of serial killer. This is a

555
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 3: predator who has access to a victim pool. And you

556
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 3: know the types of cases that, of course that I

557
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 3: have worked during my career and continue to work. Are

558
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: you know these predators that kill using violence. But the

559
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 3: mindset is is that they are killing for their own

560
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: internal needs, their own self gratification, their own fantasy. There's

561
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: a pathology there right now.

562
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 4: We have seen.

563
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 3: Numerous examples of medical individuals, whether they be doctors or

564
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: nurses or other types of hospital staff, who have access

565
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: to these patients and they're killing these patients. They're not

566
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 3: utilizing violence, They're utilizing other resources that they have access to,

567
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,959
Speaker 3: such as drugs or sometimes you see asphyxia being employed.

568
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 3: But the motivation is for their own internal reasons and

569
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 3: Oftentimes with this type of offender, the mindset of they're

570
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 3: playing God. They pick and choose who dies and when

571
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: that person dies, and that gives them this power that

572
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 3: feeds a sort of a power complex, is the way

573
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: that I would kind.

574
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 4: Of put it.

575
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 3: And there are offenders, these serial killers that kill utilizing

576
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 3: violence such a strangulation, and notably somebody like Sam Little

577
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 3: or even the happy Face killer jesperson who describes this

578
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 3: god complex. I pick and choose when this person dies,

579
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 3: and they will strangle these victims to the point of

580
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 3: unconsciousness and then release and let the victim come back

581
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: alive and then strangle them again. That's that playing God.

582
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 3: And I would say that this pathology within this hospital

583
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 3: setting of I'm going to guess that these victims within

584
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 3: the hospital were killed using some sort of toxin or drug.

585
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 3: But the person that's administering that is playing God, is

586
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 3: doing the same thing, just utilizing a different methodology.

587
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about doctor Mario, since right now he's

588
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: the prime suspect of what we aren't sure of is

589
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 2: actually a series of murders we don't know yet. So

590
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: when these are happening, which is sixty five and sixty six.

591
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: Mario is in his late thirties. He's from Argentina. In

592
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty five, he comes to the United States. He

593
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: gets an internship at a hospital in New Jersey. In

594
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two, three years before this happens, he's hired

595
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: by Riverdale Hospital. He sounds like a rock star of

596
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: a surgeon. He is hardworking, he has a great reputation,

597
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: he's easy to get along with. He quickly becomes chief

598
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: of surgery at this small private hospital during this time period.

599
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: When he's there, he even invents a stapler that's used

600
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: during surgical operations in this time period. So this seems

601
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: like a stellar person, which is petrifying if he's really

602
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: a serial killer.

603
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: Like you're saying, yeah.

604
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 3: You know, but this is where, you know, you can

605
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 3: have these predators that are very very successful by all

606
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 3: measures that we in our society use to say this

607
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: person is good at what they do. You know, they

608
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 3: can be very capable, very skilled. But then there's something

609
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 3: under kind of the occurrent that's underneath what we can

610
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 3: see that is driving them to commit these crimes.

611
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: So doctor Harris and his other kind of cohort in

612
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: this doctor lance decide they want to do their own

613
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: little investigation into doctor Morio, even though he is their

614
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: boss and supervisor. So they look inside doctor Mario's locker,

615
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 2: which sounds like inexplicably is not locked, and doctor Harris

616
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: finds eighteen vials of brand name versions of a drug

617
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: called curare. Some of these vials are sealed and unused,

618
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: some are opened and partially used, and they also have

619
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: syringes loaded with the curra sitting right there alongside the

620
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: vials in doctor Mario's locker. So, first of all, explain

621
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 2: why we should be concerned about curra.

622
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is what we call a clue.

623
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: Oh is that why I should be considered?

624
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 3: Okay, now you know here you have this, this doctor

625
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: who's squirreled away. In essence, this poison curare is something

626
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 3: that is it was a paralytic agent, and I'm having

627
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: to look online. I had heard of it, but now

628
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 3: I'm having to just kind of read what it does.

629
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 3: But this was a compound used by indigenous tribal people

630
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: for their poisoned darts. And what it does is it

631
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 3: disrupts the ability of the nerves to communicate with skeletal muscle.

632
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 3: And so, in essence, it's paralytic. And so if you

633
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 3: get that into your system, now you struggle to move.

634
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: But more importantly, something like breathing gets compromised. Your brain

635
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,959
Speaker 3: can't cause your diaphragm to contract, you know, in order

636
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 3: to be able to breathe. That's where with the last

637
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 3: one we talked about Frank, who was described he went

638
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 3: in for an ulcer, but then after surgery he's looking blue.

639
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 3: Well he's not able to breathe properly, and so that

640
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 3: makes sense. So I imagine that you know, the these

641
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 3: two doctors looking in a locker and seeing this very

642
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 3: poisonous agent being squirreled away. They're going, Okay, that's not normal.

643
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 3: And my hope is is this is where now phone

644
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: calls are being made to both law enforcement and the coroners.

645
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you something about kirara that you

646
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: might not know. In the forties, this was actually used

647
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: during surgery, very commonly used as a paralytic and a

648
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 2: muscle relaxing. I mean, they were very aware that if

649
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 2: you didn't know everything possible about dosing, that it would

650
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: be exactly what you said. It would be catastrophic for

651
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: the patient. It had been phased out over the past

652
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: decade or two. But it was not particularly shocking to

653
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 2: see this. This would not have been something they would

654
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: have used, but it was in hospitals, and it could

655
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: have been some smaller places with some real old school

656
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 2: doctors might have still used it. It was at one

657
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 2: point used during.

658
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 3: Surgery, right, and that was my understanding, is that that

659
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 3: was part of the anesesia process, you know, back in

660
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 3: the day, and then they since replaced it. But still

661
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 3: it's like today if somebody were to go into let's

662
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 3: say an antithesiologist locker and open it up and see

663
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of aisles of fentanyl. Well, fentanyl is

664
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 3: commonly used by anesthesiologists today, but why would they have

665
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 3: it squirreled away, you know, in a location that they

666
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 3: shouldn't have it. It should be more tightly controlled.

667
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

668
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: Well, doctor Mario is a little shocked, and he's confronted

669
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 2: about what's in his locker, and he says, everybody's overreacting.

670
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 2: I am not using this on patients. I'm using it

671
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 2: on dogs. Because he's running experiments related to canine liver

672
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 2: biopsies off site as his own project, and later on

673
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 2: they test stuff that's in the locker, and it's determined

674
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: that his locker is indeed contaminated with.

675
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: Dog hair in dog blood. So of course we don't

676
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: know the timeline.

677
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,919
Speaker 2: We don't know if this all, how old the dog

678
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: blood is, and how he actually used it. But you know,

679
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: there are people who are very skeptical of doctor Mario

680
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: and think that he put the dog hair in the

681
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 2: blood in the locker after he was confronted with the

682
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 2: hospital administrators to support his cover story. So when he

683
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 2: found out that people were looking in his locker, he

684
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: went back before being confronted and put this stuff in

685
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: and said, you missed it. Look, here are bits of

686
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,439
Speaker 2: dog hair and here bits of blood, and I'm doing

687
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 2: these experiments.

688
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?

689
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 4: Well, this is just typical.

690
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 3: You know, when you are dealing with a suspect, you

691
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 3: know they're going to lie. At least my understanding on

692
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 3: how this is progressing is now you have hospital staff

693
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 3: who are not trained investigators. You know, they're conducting an investigation,

694
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 3: and if they are now allowing the in essence the

695
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: crime scene and the physical evidence to be altered after

696
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 3: they have discovered this incriminating evidence in his locker, that's

697
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: where I'm like, get law enforcement out there, talk to Corners.

698
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 3: You know, let's now we've got a situation, and you're

699
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 3: not allowing doctor Mario to have access back to the

700
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 3: crime scene, to the physical evidence. But of course he's

701
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: going to lie, and he's a doctor. He can come

702
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 3: up with an excuse as to why he has this poison.

703
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 3: But you interview him, you lock his statements in, you

704
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 3: conduct a proper investigation. Corners needs to be conducting more

705
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 3: thorough death investigations, possibly even exooming some of these patients

706
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 3: and seeing is there in the nineteen sixties a methodology

707
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 3: to detect this karrari within the body. None of these

708
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: patients probably should have had karari being administered to them

709
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 3: in a formal capacity, in a medical capacity. So if

710
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 3: there's karari in the patients, doctor Mario has kari in

711
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 3: his locker. Doctor Mario had access to the patients. Now

712
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 3: you are stacking up the various aspects, the evidence and

713
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 3: circumstances to show that yes, doctor Mario is killing patients

714
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 3: using this KARRAI.

715
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 2: Well, this is such an interesting story because the hospital

716
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 2: administrators and the medical examiner did none of that. Of course,

717
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 2: the investigation went nowhere two weeks. They looked into it.

718
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: They couldn't sort out if he did anything on purpose,

719
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: and that was it. He left Riverdale in nineteen sixty six.

720
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: We don't know if he was fired or if he resigned,

721
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 2: but he left. He continued to perform surgery at other

722
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 2: facilities in New Jersey for ten years. Paul, this guy

723
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: for ten years. It is not often in our stories

724
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 2: that I get to, you know, trumpet the incredible work

725
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 2: of journalists. But thank goodness, ten years later, in nineteen

726
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: seventy six, there's a journalist with the New York Times

727
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: named Byron Farber. He is looking into these deaths and

728
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 2: he does not name the doctor who is the suspect here,

729
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 2: doctor Mario. He calls him doctor X, which is a

730
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 2: great book title, by the way, doctor.

731
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: Like doctor evil, Doctor X.

732
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: And there is a huge wave of publicity in the

733
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: case because he does a series in New Jersey. The

734
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 2: DA says, okay, let's start looking into this. They eventually

735
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: convene a grand jury and they recommend murder charges, and

736
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: they start to have the bodies exhumed and tested for

737
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 2: the carrare the stuff that they found in the law.

738
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: And you know, according to source material. There are a

739
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: lot of different methods that they used. I had no

740
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: idea what's available in nineteen seventy six.

741
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 1: But listen to this.

742
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: Radio immuna assay, thin layer chromatography, yes, high pressure liquid chromatography,

743
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: ultraviolet absorption spectroscopy, and mass spectrometry. Are these current tests

744
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 2: that you know of? Have you heard of these tests before?

745
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, okay, I've done all of them except really

746
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 3: radio immuno assays. I mean, I've done immunoassays, but thin

747
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 3: layer chromatography, actually I haven't done personally done HPLC, you know,

748
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 3: the high pressure liquid chromatography, but mass spectrometry that that

749
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 3: is a this is a fairly advanced testing regimen.

750
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 4: You're saying this is in the nineteen seventies.

751
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: This is seventy six.

752
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so you know this for things like the

753
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 3: mass spectrometry or the HPLC. You know, this is probably

754
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 3: the early implementations of that type of instrumentation, but it

755
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 3: is far more sensitive than something like the thin layer

756
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 3: chromatography that goes back eons. In terms of use. Thin

757
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 3: layer chromatography is it's sort of like if you've done

758
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: the really fundamental chemistry experiment to where you have a

759
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 3: pen ink in a test tube and you drop a

760
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 3: piece of paper in there, and the pen ink kind

761
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 3: of wicks up the paper and it separates out into

762
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 3: the various colors that are within that pen ink. That's

763
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 3: a form of chromatography. Thin layer chromatography is just an

764
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 3: advanced version of that. And then when you get into

765
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: high pressure liquid chromatography or even this mass spectrometry, which

766
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: typically is it's a detector that occurs after gas chromatography.

767
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 3: This is even you know, several evolutions past the thin

768
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 3: layer chromatography in terms of now you're using very sensitive

769
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: instrumentation in order to separate out the components. And so

770
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 3: if you have a biological tissue that you extract out

771
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 3: the various chemicals within that tissue, you can separate those

772
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,439
Speaker 3: chemicals out based on their physical and chemical characteristics using

773
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 3: a chromatography method and then use various detectors to see

774
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 3: what these chemicals are or what their physical properties are.

775
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: So this is actually a fairly for the nineteen seventies.

776
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 3: I'm kind of impressed that they are using this technology.

777
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 2: So what ends up happening is they were charging doctor

778
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: Mario with more deaths, but of the bodies that they exhumed,

779
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 2: there were only three that they were able to find

780
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 2: the presence of Kerrara in and it was Nancy the

781
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: four year old, Carl the seventy three year old, and

782
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: Frank the fifty nine year old. So he's now charged

783
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: with three murders. And in February of nineteen seventy eight,

784
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 2: this is over a decade after the deaths of these

785
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 2: three people, his trial begins. Doctor Marrio's trial begins all

786
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 2: because of this journalist picking up the case more than

787
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 2: a decade later. So let's talk about motive, because I

788
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 2: know this is going to be your favorite thing. This

789
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 2: is what prosecutors think. They think he was motivated to

790
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 2: murder these people, to undermine the credibility of his colleagues,

791
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 2: to make everybody else look bad and make him look good.

792
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 1: What do you think about that? That's their theory because

793
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: they know juries want a theory.

794
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 3: You know, I think, you know, this is where I

795
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: would need to know more about his relationship with his colleagues.

796
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 3: Is that truly a motive. Sometimes I've seen prosecutors they

797
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 3: want to have something that they could present to a

798
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 3: jury that makes sense. But some of these you know

799
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 3: what I talked about earlier, in terms of The inner

800
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 3: gratification that doctor Mario I believe is likely getting from

801
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 3: doing and committing these types of is such a nebulous

802
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 3: concept that prosecutors generally will not try to present that aspect.

803
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 3: Maybe somebody is talking about he's he's talked about the

804
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 3: jealousy that he's feeling about, you know, maybe doctor Harris,

805
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 3: you know, and doctor Harris is getting some sort of

806
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: award that doctor Mario was aced out of, you know,

807
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 3: And there's that aspect, almost a vindictive motive. But I'm

808
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: not convinced that that's what's going on here. You know,

809
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 3: if he's switching hospitals and is continuing to do this

810
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 3: type of crime, it sounds like it's something that it's

811
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 3: not geared towards select individuals that he's trying to undermine.

812
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 3: He is doing it because he wants to do it.

813
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think they are alleging that he did

814
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: anything after leaving Riverdale, So I wonder if that goes

815
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 2: back to the idea of he really didn't like these

816
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: specific colleagues who were underneath them. I don't know, but

817
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: I think I think you're right. I think that that

818
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: seems like kind of a tall tale of a motive

819
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 2: to do all of this.

820
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: If we really think, thirteen, what do you think?

821
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 3: I just don't buy it, you know, and I kind

822
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 3: of go you know. They charged him with the three Carl, Nancy,

823
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 3: and Frank because they found the karrari in their tissues

824
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 3: after exhumation. They don't charge him with Margaret. And the

825
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 3: interesting thing with Margaret, she's the one that is showing

826
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 3: the one thing the medical examiner at the time noted

827
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 3: that acute hepatic necrosis. That sounds like they're if doctor

828
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 3: Mario was responsible for her death. He used a different

829
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 3: toxin and they just didn't find what that toxin was.

830
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: Well, this will be interesting.

831
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 2: The defense is of course countering all of this with

832
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 2: a lot of different things, so they say he didn't

833
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: have a problem with colleagues. Colleagues had a problem with him,

834
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 2: you know, they were desperate to cover up their own

835
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: medical incompetence. There is a newspaper man who is determined

836
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: to get a lot of fame and fortune over digging

837
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: up murder cases that weren't really murder cases, and the

838
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:13,919
Speaker 2: prosecutors are trying to hop on board.

839
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: It's a big conspiracy.

840
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: Everybody wants to see doctor Mario go down because he's

841
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 2: a successful doctor. And by the way, we don't think

842
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 2: anything has happened since he left Riverdale. This was bad

843
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: doctors who worked underneath him. It was not doctor Mario.

844
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the evidence, because they really try

845
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: to break down the evidence. So they spend a lot

846
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 2: of time trying to discredit the prosecutions, Krare overdose claims

847
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: and the testing, so they are directly contradicting the prosecution

848
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: witnesses number one who say that at least one of

849
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: the victims was blue. There are other witnesses at the

850
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 2: hospital who testify not blue. They looked pale or white.

851
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 2: And I know with blue, we were talking about you know,

852
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: breathing issues, hard issues. And the defense is saying, we

853
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 2: have witnesses who never saw blue on anybody, so you know,

854
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: we are not talking about a paralytic here.

855
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, but the testing of Frank who was seen as

856
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 3: blue blue, I mean that's subjective, right, That's that's a

857
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 3: color and it's based on perception. It can be something.

858
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 3: You know, this blue hue that is seen in a

859
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 3: noxia depends on the lighting conditions. Even though there's that

860
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 3: interesting observation at the time that Frank died. The most

861
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 3: significant evidence at trial is he had karari in his system.

862
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 3: So whether he was blue or pale to me is

863
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 3: trivial relative. Well, hold on the scientific testing. The tox

864
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 3: came back and he had a poison in his system.

865
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: Well, the defense says, you're wrong.

866
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 4: Of course he do.

867
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: Using the testimony of twenty one expert witnesses, the defense

868
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,399
Speaker 2: goes on the attack. They established that ten whole years

869
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 2: have passed since the patient's death, and that things like

870
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 2: the passage of time, the chemical process is the body,

871
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 2: or even the embalming could affect the integrity of cararare testing.

872
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: There is a renowned toxicologist named doctor Frederick Readers who affirms,

873
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 2: per his own testing, that karari was present in Nancy

874
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 2: Savino's remains, but instead of suggesting it implies lethal poisoning,

875
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: he says he's surprised that the substance showed up at all.

876
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: According to his understanding of kari and how it interacts

877
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 2: with embalming into composing fluids, this toxicologist didn't think it

878
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 2: would be present after ten years whatsoever. Yet somehow, he

879
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: found via his own testing was surprisingly pure. He said

880
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 2: that he only found Kurare in Nancy's liver, but if

881
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 2: it's injected with an IV, he thinks it would have

882
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: been all over the place. It wouldn't have been just

883
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 2: in the liver. So he is saying, this toxicologist is saying,

884
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 2: this doesn't make sense. If we are accusing this guy

885
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 2: of putting Kiare in an IV, that's not if it's

886
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: in there, that's not the way it ended up in there.

887
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,439
Speaker 2: He's contradicting everything the prosecutor's saying.

888
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 3: So now you have an expert who's okay admitting, yes,

889
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 3: Karari was detected in the liver, but he would expect

890
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 3: that it would be detected elsewhere and that it's possibly

891
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 3: going to be compromised as a result of the embalming

892
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 3: and the environmental aspects of the body being varied. But

893
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 3: what studies is he referring to in terms of, Okay,

894
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 3: how many situations has he run across in which buried

895
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 3: bodies after ten years have been studied to see how

896
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: Karari persists within the various tissues. You know, he's probably

897
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 3: speculating to a point. You know, fundamentally, Karari was detected

898
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 3: in the liver. Everything else that he's talking about and

899
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 3: it's not to necessarily say he's not an expert, but

900
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 3: it's can he reliably point to objective data to support

901
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 3: those statements. And this is where you get into the

902
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 3: battle of the experts on science, because prosecution could probably

903
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 3: march another toxicllgist in to say, no, this is exactly

904
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 3: what I would expect. It would only persist in the

905
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 3: liver because it's going to be concentrated in the liver,

906
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 3: you know, after it has been put into the body.

907
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: I wonder if Frederick Readers thinks that maybe he was

908
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 2: given a tainted sample, because if you think about what

909
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 2: he's saying, he's saying it shouldn't be here, it's pure,

910
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 2: and it's only in the liver. So it sounds to

911
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: me like he's thinking his samples contaminated, probably on purpose.

912
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you, Well, the.

913
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 3: Way he's phrasing that, that's that sounds like the allegation.

914
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 3: You know, the prosecution you know, ended up, whether it

915
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 3: be at the investigator stage or or you know, once

916
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 3: charges were filed, you know that they dosed the liver sample,

917
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 3: so the testing would show that it's krari on That

918
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 3: of course would be a completely that's a go to

919
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 3: act that would be setting up doctor Mario. And my

920
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 3: hope is is that that's not what happened. But we

921
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 3: know that that type of thing over history has happened. Ye, yeah,

922
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 3: so I need to know more. You know, is there

923
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 3: why just that sample?

924
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: Right?

925
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 3: Why not dose the other samples to make sure that

926
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,919
Speaker 3: you know, if you really want to convict doctor Mario, well,

927
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 3: let's get him on all three bodies, across all the

928
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 3: various tissue samples that have been collected, because they had

929
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 3: access to all of it.

930
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: Well, and it doesn't sound like he was given the

931
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 2: other two samples for the other two bodies because he

932
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 2: is just talking about Nancy and that's it. Okay, So

933
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 2: unfortunately we are coming to the end of our information.

934
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: It is battle of the witnesses and experts. As we

935
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 2: talked about the jury, I'm sure isn't sure what to

936
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 2: do here, but you know, ten years later, there are

937
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 2: witnesses who are gone. There are tissue samples and tape

938
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 2: recordings that could have shed light on some of this. So,

939
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 2: like you know, interviews with doctor Mario that had been

940
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 2: lost or destroyed by the time this guy was indicted.

941
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 2: This is reconstructing a case from twelve years ago, and

942
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 2: the jury deliberates and it takes them less than three hours.

943
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 1: To find him not guilty.

944
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean, wow, what a case because you know,

945
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 2: there wasn't enough information.

946
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 1: It came late.

947
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 2: I don't know if in sixty six, when doctor Harris

948
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 2: sounded the alarm on this case to begin with, if

949
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 2: they had any of these tests that you're talking about,

950
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 2: but then the karrari would have showed up positively. I'm

951
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 2: assuming if they had tested them on the spot in

952
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: sixty six. But the hospital administration, it sounds like just

953
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 2: totally drop the ball on this. They stopped the investigation,

954
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 2: they didn't turn it over to the police, and they

955
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 2: passed him off to another hospital. It's what it sounds like.

956
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, in essence, you have multiple homicides that they just overlooked. Yeah,

957
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 3: and if they had conducted if they had called law enforcement,

958
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 3: worked with the coroner's office back in sixty six, we

959
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 3: probably would have seen a much more thorough investigation. The

960
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 3: evidence would be much more conclusive, and possibly doctor Mario

961
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 3: would have been removed from being in a position or

962
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 3: he potentially could have killed others down the road.

963
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: Well, he is acquitted. He walks out.

964
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 2: He eventually loses his medical license because of unrelated malpractice

965
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 2: and fractions.

966
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: We don't know anything about those.

967
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,399
Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like if he killed somebody, you know,

968
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 2: the authority's never found out about it. He leaves the

969
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 2: United States and goes back to Argentina, probably a good idea.

970
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 2: And you know, he eventually dies at the age of

971
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 2: fifty seven in nineteen eighty four. But this hospital, Riverdale,

972
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 2: who you have a couple of doctors who are putting

973
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,240
Speaker 2: things together and certainly saved people's lives by sounding the alarm,

974
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 2: and then they're completely undermined by the hospital administration. Riverdale

975
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 2: just never recovers. Eventually, it shuttered a couple of years

976
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 2: after the trial. Their reputation is in tatters. So what

977
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 2: is the lesson learned Paul from this? Is it the

978
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 2: hospital administration needed to be held accountable for making such

979
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 2: an awful decision.

980
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,439
Speaker 3: Well, imagine you have a loved one who goes into

981
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 3: the hospital for relatively routine procedure and dies the next day,

982
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 3: and then you find out that one of the doctors

983
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 3: who your loved one was under the care of had

984
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 3: previously been investigated for four five or thirteen similar homicides,

985
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 3: and it was overlooked. The lesson from my perspective is

986
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 3: somewhat I'm somewhat echoing what I've already said before, is

987
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 3: that when you are dealing with people's lives in a

988
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 3: medical setting, you need to be familiar with when something

989
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:55,399
Speaker 3: appears to be looking like there's a criminal aspect. At

990
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 3: that point, you need to pull law enforcement in because

991
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 3: law enforcement is the expert in conducting that kind of investigation.

992
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 3: They may need to work side by side with the

993
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 3: medical experts, but that often comes from the medical examiners.

994
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 3: They're the ones that understand this is what happens during

995
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 3: these types of surgeries. These are the types of agents

996
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 3: that are administered during the surgeries, These are the risks,

997
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 3: These are why patients die from these surgeries. And when

998
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 3: they see patients manifesting symptoms that do not correlate with

999
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:33,919
Speaker 3: what the pathologists is knowing should be the reason why

1000
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 3: the person dies, there's something that needs to be investigated

1001
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 3: right then and there, And that I think is really

1002
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,280
Speaker 3: the message is, once it looks like there's a criminal aspect,

1003
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 3: get the criminal investigators in.

1004
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 2: Well lesson learned here what a story we don't visit

1005
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 2: hospitals very often, but this was a compelling one, and

1006
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 2: you know, I'll think about probably the motive for this

1007
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 2: for a long time.

1008
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 1: Our motives are usually a lot more clear cut, but

1009
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: this one was not.

1010
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 2: Thank you for letting me bring this case to you, Paul.

1011
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 2: This is another sort of not even a who done it?

1012
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 2: It's a did he do it?

1013
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 1: Sort of thing.

1014
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it shows us how far we've come, you know,

1015
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 2: with medical tools and forensic tools, and so it's another

1016
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 2: good reminder of boy to be lucky about where we

1017
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 2: are right now and forensics and how it just keeps growing.

1018
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: Thank goodness.

1019
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 3: Very interesting and different type of case and what we

1020
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 3: normally talk about.

1021
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 4: So thank you for bringing it to my attention.

1022
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 2: I'm sure next week we'll have a traditional murder case

1023
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: for you, but I like to throw in these every.

1024
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 1: Once in a while. See you next week, Thanks Paul.

1025
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 4: All right, sounds good, Kate.

1026
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1027
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 2: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

1028
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 2: Buried Bones sources.

1029
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1030
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1031
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is been to Holiday.

1032
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1033
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1034
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1035
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1036
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 2: bary Bones.

1037
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 3: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1038
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 3: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

1039
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 3: the criminal mind, is available now

1040
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1041
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,439
Speaker 2: cold Cases, is also available now