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Speaker 1: episode Discusses Abuse, Trauma and sexual assault, which may be
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Speaker 1: Table Talk Productions. I heart media or their employees. I
Speaker 1: said I'm ready, so John kept pushing me, kept pushing me.
Speaker 1: I said get out of my way, I'm gone, I go,
Speaker 1: I'm done, and he says, why don't you push me back?
Speaker 1: Because if you push me, he goes, you'll never get
Speaker 1: up again. We have been hearing the story of Deborah Newell,
Speaker 1: who was in one of the most infamous toxic relationships
Speaker 1: with dirty John. Dirty John is a story of not
Speaker 1: just the machinations of a toxic, narcissistic and likely psychopathic man,
Speaker 1: it's also about how family narratives and histories past trauma,
Speaker 1: hope and even just believing or hoping for love, for
Speaker 1: a fairy tale, can take a person down a dangerous path.
Speaker 1: Deborah Newell's story has been told by others. Now you
Speaker 1: get to hear Deborah Story from herself. Deborah endured criticism
Speaker 1: and many viewers and people weighing in on how could
Speaker 1: she have missed the signs? Why did she move so
Speaker 1: fast into a marriage? Why did she ignore her children's protests?
Speaker 1: As we here Deborah Story, we learn about her why
Speaker 1: and we learn how the vulnerabilities that so many of
Speaker 1: us have can draw us into a relationship with a
Speaker 1: toxic shape shifter like John. Everyone thinks they know the
Speaker 1: story of dirty John, the modern parable of dating, love
Speaker 1: and marriage gone wrong, but now we are hearing the
Speaker 1: story of the survivor. In our first episode with Deborah,
Speaker 1: we found out that she started learning uncomfortable truths about
Speaker 1: his past, as well as witnessing increasingly uncomfortable behavior monitoring
Speaker 1: her movements his stint in prison. He didn't tell her
Speaker 1: about lying about his military service, and then, while he
Speaker 1: was in the hospital, she saw that he had been
Speaker 1: having numerous inappropriate text exchanges with women from his past
Speaker 1: and his present. Her marriage is unraveling before it even began.
Speaker 1: So let's work backwards to you getting married, because you
Speaker 1: met him. How long from the day of that first
Speaker 1: date to when you got married? How how much time
Speaker 1: had elapsed? It was way too soon, it was. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1: I married him in December and Adam beginning of October. Okay,
Speaker 1: so October, November, October, November, so three months it was.
Speaker 1: It was a fast marriage, fast movement. Okay. And so
Speaker 1: now you're married. What were you thinking? Was it similar
Speaker 1: to what we're saying? I don't want to live in sin,
Speaker 1: I want to be married to this person. So what
Speaker 1: happened was I had to go on a business trip
Speaker 1: to Vegas and I believe I got there and he
Speaker 1: wanted to go along. He always loved going with me,
Speaker 1: and so he's there and he's done all the work
Speaker 1: at getting a marriage license and he had asked me
Speaker 1: at this point two times, two married. Please marry me. Don't.
Speaker 1: I don't want to live in San I'm so in
Speaker 1: love with you that's spend the most of our lives together.
Speaker 1: I want to die in your arms. I mean it
Speaker 1: goes on and on and on, and I'd say no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not marrying you. I'm not going to marry you. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let's take a step back there, Deborah. He kept
Speaker 1: asking you, right, you kept saying no, you just said
Speaker 1: another boundary, right, and homie apparently didn't get the message,
Speaker 1: because he kept asking right, that insistence, that idea that
Speaker 1: ultimately he'd break your resolve right, because he felt entitled
Speaker 1: enough to do it. So we did right, but you
Speaker 1: did set a boundary, I did, but unfortunately I broke
Speaker 1: that boundary. What was it about what happened going to
Speaker 1: Vegas that made you what do you think that we
Speaker 1: culminated in a breaking of a boundary that you had
Speaker 1: actually said? I didn't want to marry him, and at
Speaker 1: least not at that point. Definitely, I wanted my kids
Speaker 1: to like him first. I wanted to know this person
Speaker 1: through and through. So I wasn't ready whatsoever. Unfortunately, John
Speaker 1: kept saying you're living in sin, you're living in sin,
Speaker 1: you're living in sin. How is God gonna what if
Speaker 1: you were to die today and you're living in sin?
Speaker 1: He knew what to say, he was the expert, and
Speaker 1: I thought, Oh, I can't do this. He goes. What
Speaker 1: if your mom finds out and I'm thinking, well, I
Speaker 1: am a grown adult, but I hate disappointing people. I
Speaker 1: was disappointing my kids by being in this number one.
Speaker 1: I had been raised and instilled where you don't do this.
Speaker 1: And then we were at dinner. He had made an
Speaker 1: appointment for us to go down to the courthouse and
Speaker 1: get married and had some paperwork on him and in
Speaker 1: the meantime I had had a couple of drinks at
Speaker 1: dinner and he said, please, please, please, please, make me
Speaker 1: the happiest man on Earth, and I'm a pleaser and
Speaker 1: finally I said okay. He said, what do we have
Speaker 1: to lose? I can live with you the rest of
Speaker 1: my life, I can be you can make me the
Speaker 1: happiest man I mean. He said everything, everything that would
Speaker 1: manipulate me, and I said okay. So there we were
Speaker 1: at the courthouse, late at night, getting married, and I thought,
Speaker 1: what am I doing? Why am I doing this? What
Speaker 1: is wrong with me that I am not strong enough
Speaker 1: to say no? And I'm blaming myself and I sat
Speaker 1: there and I thought, but I'm so in love with
Speaker 1: this man. I've never felt so in love in all
Speaker 1: my life. What were you in love with? I was
Speaker 1: in love with who I thought he was and how
Speaker 1: he treated me. Just I know it's so weird, but
Speaker 1: it was. It was almost a high. He was he
Speaker 1: said all the right things, he did all the right things,
Speaker 1: everything that he was doing. Obviously he had studied what
Speaker 1: would make me fall in love with him and there
Speaker 1: was something. I don't even I can't even say it,
Speaker 1: but even his smell, his presence, his quirkiness, the way
Speaker 1: he would play with a dog, the way he would
Speaker 1: pick up a child, there were all these things that
Speaker 1: would make me just fall for him. I loved a
Speaker 1: man that just love kids or just would get down
Speaker 1: on the floor and play with a dog, that would
Speaker 1: just smile and say cute things made me laugh. So
Speaker 1: there were so many things that he did that, in
Speaker 1: my eyes, made me fall never like I had before.
Speaker 1: So you fell in love. He kept asking, he kept asking,
Speaker 1: and ultimately that people pleasing part of you was going
Speaker 1: to do you in there. And then that's actually a
Speaker 1: real it's an utter damnation for everyone in these narcissistic relationships,
Speaker 1: because many of them are people pleasers, which means it's
Speaker 1: just a matter of time. That you did, you did
Speaker 1: set a boundary, and then so you marry him and
Speaker 1: it's early in the game. It's three months in. So
Speaker 1: now let's jump to where you were private investigator, because
Speaker 1: now things have changed and I think this is the
Speaker 1: part of the story, Deborah. That's very important to me
Speaker 1: that we get right here, because everybody else has gotten
Speaker 1: it wrong. Okay, you marry him in December. Okay, things
Speaker 1: start already falling apart in January, in February, cameras are up,
Speaker 1: prison letter. Yes, you talked to shady. He's raising concerns.
Speaker 1: Then the kids get the private investigator. Yes, now it's
Speaker 1: march and boom, what did the private investigator find? So
Speaker 1: the private investigator found out that he had been in prison,
Speaker 1: not in Iraq, he had not practice, he was not
Speaker 1: an an enthusiologist. was he a doctor? He said he
Speaker 1: had his doctorate degree. I don't know. There were too
Speaker 1: many other things. He may have had a doctorate in
Speaker 1: something else, but he did not have an M D. Right, okay,
Speaker 1: so I'm reading all these things. He had nine restraining orders. Wow,
Speaker 1: so what happened is I go to a lawyer and
Speaker 1: I want in annulment, I want protection on all my kids.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I have to get out. I went with
Speaker 1: two of my daughters and my daughter in law and
Speaker 1: we went to this lawyer told him the story. Tried
Speaker 1: to serve John, couldn't Sir John. Why you couldn't find him?
Speaker 1: They hit him. Who hit him? The hospital? Did the
Speaker 1: hospital hit him? So he couldn't be served. Yes, what
Speaker 1: was that about? The hospital has the right to protect
Speaker 1: their patients. Okay, they make it so, which is interesting
Speaker 1: because the patients in the hospital usually it's you find
Speaker 1: the room number, go find him. So they were. They
Speaker 1: couldn't even find him. Interest. After four or five days
Speaker 1: they had put him privacy on his room because my
Speaker 1: lawyer has said that we will be serving you and
Speaker 1: I guess. And I had gone up to a nurse
Speaker 1: and I said, you have no idea who this guy is,
Speaker 1: I just want to look him in the eyes and
Speaker 1: ask him questions. And they wouldn't let you find your wife. Yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: he has a privacy. Um, he's I don't know what
Speaker 1: he's done, but I can't see him, nor its and
Speaker 1: they serve him. Okay. So then he at some point
Speaker 1: he's going to get out of the hospital. It's just
Speaker 1: a bowel obstruction, right. Well, yeah, but he had complications. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so he was. He in the hospital for a while.
Speaker 1: Twenty three days. That's a long time. Okay, so he
Speaker 1: was actually quite seriously ill. Twenty three days he is
Speaker 1: in the hospital. You can't see him for twenty three days.
Speaker 1: A person you've been married to, right, obviously he can't
Speaker 1: be served. How are you feeling at this time? I'm
Speaker 1: in shock. Every feeling a betrayal, hurt, frustration, guilt, anger,
Speaker 1: everything that I went through, every fear had. Fear like
Speaker 1: you have no idea. I can imagine. I sat there
Speaker 1: and thought, okay, this guy knows everything about me. I
Speaker 1: can't just walk away. So the twenty three days is up.
Speaker 1: At some point. What happens then? Because he has to
Speaker 1: be released to someone or someplace exactly. So I get
Speaker 1: this call and he said, Debbie. I'm like, and that
Speaker 1: call was the first time you've talked to him since
Speaker 1: he went into the Austin Wow, and I'm moving forward
Speaker 1: in every area, but I'm also thinking that you can't
Speaker 1: just walk away. I don't know who this man is
Speaker 1: and I don't know what's going to happen. So he said,
Speaker 1: I miss you, I need you. He goes. I can't
Speaker 1: live without you. And he goes, and you're my wife,
Speaker 1: and I'm like uh, I go, John, do you realize
Speaker 1: what you've done? I go, do you realize I just
Speaker 1: found out everything about you? He goes, it's not all true.
Speaker 1: I go, what do you mean it's not true? Eight
Speaker 1: restraining orders? How can not even one of those, you know,
Speaker 1: be true? He said they're not true, Debbie, I've been
Speaker 1: the victim, of course, and I said, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: You've been the victim? I go, you've lied and lied
Speaker 1: and lied to me. And I said how do you
Speaker 1: expect me to forgive you after all that? And he
Speaker 1: said I have no way of being released except to you.
Speaker 1: He said, you're my wife. He goes, I have no
Speaker 1: one to call. I don't know how I'm going to
Speaker 1: get out of the hospital. That part might have been
Speaker 1: actually it was true, and I'm like, crap, what do
Speaker 1: I do? I don't know what to do. I don't
Speaker 1: want to see him. I don't. And part of me,
Speaker 1: at that point, though, I thought, okay, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: go put him in a hotel room. So I went
Speaker 1: down there, looked at him and he cried and cried
Speaker 1: and cried and said, you have no idea. I'm so
Speaker 1: in love with you and I didn't want to tell
Speaker 1: you because I knew I wouldn't be able to. You
Speaker 1: wouldn't have anything to do with me if you knew
Speaker 1: my past. So it's just a complete manipulation, turning himself
Speaker 1: in the victim after he's the one who's lied to you.
Speaker 1: And Right, right, there is a narcissistic personality. And I
Speaker 1: looked at it and I said, but John can't be
Speaker 1: with someone like this. And I said marriage, love is
Speaker 1: based on trust. And I said, and you've done nothing
Speaker 1: but lie to me. And he kept saying, but you
Speaker 1: don't understand. You wouldn't have even looked at me, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't have had one thing to do with me, and
Speaker 1: I said, you're right, I wouldn't have. I said, if
Speaker 1: I would have known all this, you're right, I wouldn't have.
Speaker 1: And then I'm thinking to myself, I've blown it so
Speaker 1: many times in my life. I mean I've got red flags.
Speaker 1: Look how many times I've been married, you know. And
Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, well, look at me, I'm not
Speaker 1: like this perfect person. And then I'm thinking, I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do. You know, he actually looked at
Speaker 1: me and said just dropped me off somewhere. Just signed
Speaker 1: the release papers and dropped me off somewhere, and I
Speaker 1: said okay. So I took him and I put him
Speaker 1: at this Marriott not too far away, got us prescriptions
Speaker 1: filled and dropped moth. Deborah does something that many survivors do,
Speaker 1: which is to attempt to find empathy of some kind
Speaker 1: for the narcissistic person by reflecting on herself. It sort
Speaker 1: of goes back to the biblical passage when Jesus famously
Speaker 1: says he who is without sin among you, let him
Speaker 1: cast the first stone at her. The problem is is
Speaker 1: that survivors take that to heart and view some of
Speaker 1: their past history as being on equal footing with the
Speaker 1: narcissistic person's current abusive behavior. They won't cast the stone
Speaker 1: exactly when they should, because there are sins and there
Speaker 1: are sins. Survivors may justify the narcissistic person's abusive behavior
Speaker 1: by saying, well, none of us are per fig I'm
Speaker 1: certainly not perfect. In no reality is Deborah's history of
Speaker 1: having been married multiple times on equal footing with John
Speaker 1: Lying about significant parts of his history, monitoring her movements
Speaker 1: and inappropriately communicating with other women. I was at this
Speaker 1: point staying with my oldest daughter and he kept crying
Speaker 1: and crying, calling me and crying and crying, and I
Speaker 1: said I'm not going back with you, and he said
Speaker 1: go to a lawyer with me on Monday. I'm going
Speaker 1: to make an appointment for a lawyer and I want
Speaker 1: you to talk to the lawyer. I said about what?
Speaker 1: And he said, I want them to share the truth
Speaker 1: with you. What? Yeah, and I said, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: I go, I've just read everything. He Goes, did you notice? It?
Speaker 1: John Mecham, it's Jonathan Mohan, it's he named all these
Speaker 1: different names, redhead, six too, all these different papers, you know,
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, you've got a point there. They
Speaker 1: have all these different names. They can't all be him,
Speaker 1: but obviously some have to be. What ended up happening
Speaker 1: was we went to the lawyer on Monday. I've got
Speaker 1: ninety five percent of me is out, five percent of
Speaker 1: me is in. I'm willing to listen, to hear what
Speaker 1: the lawyer has to say. The lawyer sat there and
Speaker 1: said John's the victim, right, and he said you don't
Speaker 1: understand this man got conned by women these are not him.
Speaker 1: He's been caught. He was the victim and I'm like really,
Speaker 1: how could all of these so I'm not really believing him.
Speaker 1: And so what happens is drop John back up at
Speaker 1: the hotel and I'm thinking, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with them. You know
Speaker 1: legally where I stand with him financially if he's associatepath.
Speaker 1: So I started studying what a psyche path is, what
Speaker 1: the sociopath is. I actually hired a forensic psychologist. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right. Was it helpful? It was very helpful. And
Speaker 1: I hired a private detective, one that needs to be
Speaker 1: secret service to for presidents, and I said and I
Speaker 1: said I need to know who this man is and
Speaker 1: I need to know what kind of precautions I need
Speaker 1: to take because, number one, I have no idea what
Speaker 1: to do. You know, does he get everything in mine
Speaker 1: or or what? If he knows every password, where's my safety?
Speaker 1: If he's on accounts, what do I do? And because
Speaker 1: we had not been able to get the annulment when
Speaker 1: he was in the hospital, at this point, I think,
Speaker 1: let's see, three or four weeks went by and this lawyer,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do some investigating and the forensic psychologist
Speaker 1: says to me he is a sociopath, narcissist, Predator on something.
Speaker 1: You want to order a restaurant. I can tell you
Speaker 1: that right now. You and I have spoken and when
Speaker 1: I looked at the case, upon reading everything after it,
Speaker 1: it felt more like psychopathy to me. I think it is,
Speaker 1: you know, because of how calculated, how callous the use
Speaker 1: of alias is, the ease of lying. That all feels
Speaker 1: like psychopathy, which is just the next train station, always
Speaker 1: down the track, from malignant narcissism. But they are different.
Speaker 1: I think if you stir those things up in a blender,
Speaker 1: you get psychopaths. I really do think that the net
Speaker 1: results of that and these terminologies almost don't matter. It's
Speaker 1: what you were dealing with was, even as a variant
Speaker 1: of a narcissistic presentation, the most dangerous, the most chilling.
Speaker 1: It's very this is not your sort of center of
Speaker 1: attention at a party. kind of like. This is danger us.
Speaker 1: All the things that would stop a normal person from
Speaker 1: doing something terrible. None of those breaks were on him.
Speaker 1: These terms, psychopath, sociopath malignant narcissists, are often used interchangeably
Speaker 1: but trying to slice this up into separate pieces actually
Speaker 1: doesn't work. There is a model called the Dark Tetrad
Speaker 1: that is made up of narcissism, psychopathy, machiavellianism, which is
Speaker 1: the willingness to exploit other people, and sadism. Instead of
Speaker 1: trying to distinguish psychopath versus sociopath versus narcissist, the presentation
Speaker 1: that Deborah was dealing with and John was this dark
Speaker 1: Tetrad Pattern and personally I'd throw paranoia into the mix
Speaker 1: of what would characterize his conduct. These different personality styles, narcissism, sociopathy, psychopathy,
Speaker 1: they're all related and no matter how you lay it out,
Speaker 1: the dark tetrad style is harmful to anyone who comes
Speaker 1: into contact with it. So you are now finding out
Speaker 1: that this history that the private investigator that your kids
Speaker 1: and your nephew got, it's being substantiated by this really
Speaker 1: high level private investigator and the and the forensic psychologist
Speaker 1: is really giving you this sort of like profile. Here's
Speaker 1: the piece I want to get back to because I
Speaker 1: think it's so critical to this story. The two of
Speaker 1: you got married in December. The hospitalization takes place in
Speaker 1: around March. You're done. So this marriage effectively lasted two months,
Speaker 1: three he was in the hospital. You couldn't reach him
Speaker 1: and you found out pretty early in his hospitalization what
Speaker 1: happened and couldn't serve him. So when I say this
Speaker 1: marriage lasted that long, even psychologically, by the time early
Speaker 1: March rolled around and he was in the hospital, you
Speaker 1: were very clear what happened and you're like, this is
Speaker 1: not I didn't even marry the person I thought I married.
Speaker 1: But let's call it two to three months. And the
Speaker 1: reason I'm bringing this up, Debra, is an every telling
Speaker 1: of your story I've read, other than your autobiographical rendition
Speaker 1: of it, is that this picture of this woman who
Speaker 1: is foolish and stayed in this terrible, toxic marriage. You
Speaker 1: didn't stay in a toxic marriage, you got out of
Speaker 1: it in two months. Hang on, you, you're just full
Speaker 1: of surprises. So in June I've asked my psychologist, I've
Speaker 1: talked to everyone involved that's an expert and my lawyer.
Speaker 1: What do I do? And they said get out, and
Speaker 1: I said, but how do I get out when he's
Speaker 1: got accounts, he's got passwords, he's got cameras, and they
Speaker 1: said play his game and I said, how do I play?
Speaker 1: At the time, they thought he was as sociopath at
Speaker 1: the time, and I said, okay, how do I play
Speaker 1: the game? And they said we'll help you. Said okay.
Speaker 1: So I told John, let's put you in this. I'm
Speaker 1: going to rent an apartment by my work and you
Speaker 1: can stay there and I'm going to buy a house
Speaker 1: in Vegas. So I bought a house in Vegas and
Speaker 1: I said I need you out there to do all
Speaker 1: the upgrades. Can you stay out there and get well,
Speaker 1: because he has also a really bad back. And at
Speaker 1: this point, little by little, I all of a sudden
Speaker 1: was taking I was speaking it, and that is the
Speaker 1: worst feeling in the world because that is not who
Speaker 1: I am, and I would have to like take a
Speaker 1: deep breath and think, okay, I can do this. I've
Speaker 1: got to play the game to my advantage, and so
Speaker 1: I would literally walk in that door and think, okay,
Speaker 1: Hi John, how are you? And he knew he could
Speaker 1: see right through me, and he goes, you've changed. I
Speaker 1: go no, no, I have a changed and I said
Speaker 1: and he'd be no, you're not the same person. I
Speaker 1: go no, I love you, I'm just stressed. Works hard.
Speaker 1: You know, but I what I was doing was, from
Speaker 1: that point forward, I was taking every paycheck, opening up
Speaker 1: a new account, getting cash up. I was starting to
Speaker 1: plan for my escape. I was planning the person at
Speaker 1: work to take over the business, working with them, training
Speaker 1: them little by little. I think I had sixty seven
Speaker 1: different passwords. I was changing a couple, a few a week.
Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out how I could leave.
Speaker 1: I got a dark wig, different clothes and I was
Speaker 1: mapping out how I was going to go into hiding. Wow.
Speaker 1: So when did you start going into hiding? When did
Speaker 1: that process begin? Because if he got out of the
Speaker 1: hospital at the end of March, you moved him into
Speaker 1: the Marriott. What happened in April and May and June?
Speaker 1: As you're leading up to you you're realizing you want
Speaker 1: to get out? I'm traveling a lot to barely see
Speaker 1: him my my business. What I did was I chose
Speaker 1: to do most of the framewalks, presentations, drywall walks, final walks,
Speaker 1: and so I'm gone a lot. I don't have to
Speaker 1: be around him. So in June I move him in,
Speaker 1: end of June and I'm trying to figure out my
Speaker 1: life anyway. It took all the way till February, but
Speaker 1: I'm I've got him out in the House in Vegas,
Speaker 1: out there a lot. I'm not having to see him
Speaker 1: that much. Thank God. He's questioning everything. I bought him
Speaker 1: his own car and the Vegas and I also he
Speaker 1: ended up keeping the Tesla because I could track it.
Speaker 1: I'm putting cameras. I'm actually being able to look in
Speaker 1: the cameras and watch him. So now you're playing. I'm
Speaker 1: playing his game and I've got about thirty thousand that
Speaker 1: I've saved up, actually more than that, but in cash
Speaker 1: I had thirty thousand. He finds it. He had come
Speaker 1: to Irvine at the time for a doctor's appointment and
Speaker 1: he throws the cash on the bed and I'm about
Speaker 1: ready to leave. I'm like two or three days away
Speaker 1: from leaving for good. He throws the cash on the
Speaker 1: bed and he said what's this? I said cash to
Speaker 1: the facts. He said, why are you hiding it from me?
Speaker 1: I didn't have an answer. He said what is this?
Speaker 1: Pushing me, because what is I said John? I said John, move,
Speaker 1: I'm leaving you, I'm not staying, I'm done, I'm out
Speaker 1: of here. I thought this is my chance to get
Speaker 1: out of there as fast as I could. I called
Speaker 1: and I says, we're on, we're moving this up three days.
Speaker 1: I had my installers that we're going to move everything
Speaker 1: out of mine. They were going to go get the car,
Speaker 1: the Tesla, out in Vegas, move everything out of the
Speaker 1: House in Vegas that I had put there, and so
Speaker 1: I was going to start being in hiding. And I
Speaker 1: called Jack. I said I'm ready. So John kept pushing me,
Speaker 1: kept pushing me, and I said get out of my way,
Speaker 1: I'm gone. I go, I'm done, and he says, why
Speaker 1: don't you push me back, because if you push me,
Speaker 1: he goes, you'll never get up again, and I said
Speaker 1: get out of my way. I ran as fast as
Speaker 1: I could to the door. I think I grabbed a
Speaker 1: suitcase with one shoe on. All that's going to do. Well.
Speaker 1: I got in the car and I called Jack and
Speaker 1: Li I said we're done. I said I can do it,
Speaker 1: I can get out here now, and so we ended
Speaker 1: up driving UN till four o'clock, three o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 1: got out to Vegas. The installers met me first thing
Speaker 1: in the morning, took everything out, got my car out
Speaker 1: and from that point went into hiding and I was
Speaker 1: in hiding six months. We will be right back with
Speaker 1: this conversation. What did hiding look like? Hiding, I went
Speaker 1: from a Seattle to Portland's to Denver, to Phoenix, to Tucson,
Speaker 1: to Austin, all over North Northern California. You're constantly on
Speaker 1: the move then, and we're using different identities, obviously, for
Speaker 1: everything different. Deborah's story is horrifying and stressful, but another
Speaker 1: thing that jumps out at me was that she was
Speaker 1: able to buy some time with money, buying him a
Speaker 1: separate residence, moving around and staying in different places, accumulating cash.
Speaker 1: Most people in a situation like Deborah's do not have
Speaker 1: anything near this kind of resource. They may have to
Speaker 1: flee with nothing, live in unsafe places and fear, and
Speaker 1: often there's little law enforcement can or will do to
Speaker 1: protect someone in such a situation. It's a remind finder
Speaker 1: of how perilous these kinds of toxic relationships can get.
Speaker 1: Even if you have means, it's exhausting and if you don't,
Speaker 1: it can feel damn near impossible. So again, but I'm
Speaker 1: going to go back to my original point. You got
Speaker 1: married in December. By end of February, you knew something
Speaker 1: was was up. Marches in the hospital. You then he
Speaker 1: comes out of the hospital, you put him in a hotel.
Speaker 1: You've decided you're slowly going to have to distance yourself.
Speaker 1: So your marriage really was effectively done after two that's
Speaker 1: what my point, though, is that on paper you may
Speaker 1: have been married, and that was critiqued as how could
Speaker 1: she not see all these red flags? You did see.
Speaker 1: He just don't walk away. What you're dealing with you
Speaker 1: could not have, and I think that what you were describing.
Speaker 1: We talked. We call it a go bag or safety bag.
Speaker 1: That that domestic violence Um survivors are told. You've got
Speaker 1: to have a way to get out of there. You've
Speaker 1: got to make scans. You've got. Back in the day,
Speaker 1: even when I'm back into graduate school, it really was
Speaker 1: about copies and all that. Now you've got a phone,
Speaker 1: you can take pictures, but get all those records, get
Speaker 1: some cash in one place, stow a bag at a
Speaker 1: friend's house. So you are you can't do that quickly and,
Speaker 1: like you said, he had access to passwords and all
Speaker 1: this information about your business and you. So now you
Speaker 1: are pretty much you're the one who's on the run
Speaker 1: and you've done nothing wrong. Right. So that entire period,
Speaker 1: you said you're on the run for what you said.
Speaker 1: How many, six to seven months? Is he trying to
Speaker 1: find you at this time? All the time? All the time,
Speaker 1: he was trying to find your time all the time,
Speaker 1: and obviously he wasn't, because you you no longer had
Speaker 1: the same phone. That unfortunately, I didn't have the same phone.
Speaker 1: I had burner phones. And also what was happening was
Speaker 1: he would call my office and say, Hey, I'm a
Speaker 1: builder and such and such, because you had my builder
Speaker 1: list and I can't find her a new number. Can
Speaker 1: you give it to me, and hope they would give
Speaker 1: him the number, even though they weren't supposed to. So
Speaker 1: there he would be and he'd say, Boo, I found you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so terrified. Yeah, and then when I finally find you,
Speaker 1: I'm going to kill you, I'm going to put two
Speaker 1: six FT under or I can't decide whether they hug
Speaker 1: you or choke you. I mean, it goes on and
Speaker 1: on and on. Did you ever attempt to get a
Speaker 1: restraining order against him? Yes, were you able to know
Speaker 1: it wasn't? Because what I would be curious to know
Speaker 1: what the reason was you weren't able to. So I
Speaker 1: tried and tried to get a restraining order and I
Speaker 1: had two lawyers, one in Vegas and one in Orange County.
Speaker 1: The lawyer in Vegas, when John wanted ton some money
Speaker 1: from me. He wanted he said he was disabled, and
Speaker 1: so we had to hire someone to watch him. He
Speaker 1: was carrying a rug over his shoulders, he was working
Speaker 1: out at the gym, he was running, you know, doing
Speaker 1: all these things. But they had couldn't get the restraining
Speaker 1: order the first time. They had pushed it and the
Speaker 1: annulment to September and he was losing over and over
Speaker 1: and over again. With everything going on. I couldn't get
Speaker 1: the restraining order, though. What happened? At one point? My
Speaker 1: lawyer in Vegas says, you know what, this is going
Speaker 1: to cost you a ton of money. Nobody saw him
Speaker 1: as a killer yet, by the way, because he had
Speaker 1: never killed anyone, even though he was threatening. They had
Speaker 1: never seen that, but usually a threat isn't. Now, Oh,
Speaker 1: I know, oh, trust me, I know, but he made
Speaker 1: the comment to me, my lawyer did, that you need
Speaker 1: to meet with him somewhere safe, Uh Huh, and try
Speaker 1: to talk him into the annulment and just throw him
Speaker 1: some cash. Problem. The attorneys know nothing about this, because
Speaker 1: now just you tell people the story up to that point,
Speaker 1: not even what ends up happening. Right up to that point,
Speaker 1: anyone of first your graduate student would have this sounds
Speaker 1: agnosticism or psychopathy. And he's telling you to meet this person. Okay,
Speaker 1: here's the other issue. So I've got experts trying to
Speaker 1: feel me in on what's going on, how to do
Speaker 1: things and so on. The other thing that was told
Speaker 1: to me was by my forensic psychologist. He said, you
Speaker 1: know what, I wouldn't worry about your kids. You're the
Speaker 1: one that we need to worry about. See, and that's
Speaker 1: not well, thank God. And you know what, I was
Speaker 1: really willing to die. You get to a point where
Speaker 1: you're in hiding and you're just can't do it any longer. Anything. Okay,
Speaker 1: you know what, I can die. I'm okay with it.
Speaker 1: I'm not in fear of dying. I can do it
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking to myself, but my kids. You know
Speaker 1: what's going to happen with my kids? You know, I
Speaker 1: know they've grown adults, but how are they going to
Speaker 1: handle all this? But he's told me don't worry about
Speaker 1: your kids. Then what happens then of June, is John
Speaker 1: Sets one of my cars on Bi and the forensic
Speaker 1: psychologist comes to me and he says, you know what,
Speaker 1: that's when they said he is a psychopath. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I think the behavior before definitely used, but set
Speaker 1: fire to your car. Restraining order. Now we're still not
Speaker 1: in court. You know what happens. Why don't you tell
Speaker 1: I have sent one of the private investigators that's actually
Speaker 1: on my case that John has gone silent. The day
Speaker 1: before he was always making up other email addresses and
Speaker 1: you name it and find he was finding me all
Speaker 1: the time, but he wasn't physically finding me. So at
Speaker 1: this point what had happened was John had the day before,
Speaker 1: I think he had sent two hundred messages and then
Speaker 1: he went silent. So I called the private investigator and
Speaker 1: I said, I think something's ready to happen. You're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: I said I think he's here and I said please, please, please,
Speaker 1: do something about this. We can't keep living this way.
Speaker 1: And I didn't get a response. And this was I
Speaker 1: don't remember the time, but it was mid morning when
Speaker 1: I had sent it, and then I my girlfriend. I
Speaker 1: came into town and I had put jacqueline at this
Speaker 1: place and I was staying right at the end a
Speaker 1: couple of times with her, and this was again a
Speaker 1: guard gate, but five cameras before you get to our place.
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking we're safe. Plus, if I ever flew
Speaker 1: in from town or whatever, I had a rental car
Speaker 1: and or I took Uber and I'd have them take
Speaker 1: me through the gate and dropped me off to where
Speaker 1: there's no way he could follow anyone in because there
Speaker 1: is a guard gate with a guard. So I told
Speaker 1: my girlfriend, you know, even if he's arrested, I will
Speaker 1: always be in fear because of what he had done
Speaker 1: to those private investigators that he had had death threats on,
Speaker 1: that he had hired somebody to kill why he was
Speaker 1: in prison. So while he was in prison he issued
Speaker 1: death threats against private investigators who looked into him. Yes,
Speaker 1: so I'm thinking, even if he is in prison, I'm
Speaker 1: still going to be in fear. You know, he knows
Speaker 1: a lot of bad people, I'm sure. So what happens
Speaker 1: at this point is I told my girlfriend I just
Speaker 1: feel like I'm going to be in fear of the
Speaker 1: rest of my life, no matter what that's about, right,
Speaker 1: and this is about four, four thirty when I'm telling her,
Speaker 1: she drops me off at the place where Jacqueline and
Speaker 1: I were at this point and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: I get this call and it's Tara and terra says, mom,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and I said sorry for what. She said
Speaker 1: I killed your husband. I said You did? What? What?
Speaker 1: What's going on? She said I killed your husband John
Speaker 1: and I said, oh, honey, that's okay, that's okay. What's
Speaker 1: going on with you? And then I can't talk. I
Speaker 1: said where are you and she says I met my
Speaker 1: parking complex. I don't even remember getting in the car
Speaker 1: or getting there. I don't remember any of it. Um
Speaker 1: I show up, their yellow tapes around. I'm probably a
Speaker 1: half mile away and all I can see is flashy
Speaker 1: lance and I get up to the yellow tape there's
Speaker 1: a good hundred people there. There's cop cars everywhere, there's
Speaker 1: fire engines, there's two ambulances and I'm like running to
Speaker 1: her and they're saying get back, ma'am, and I'm like
Speaker 1: it's my daughter, and they said it's a crime scene. Getaway,
Speaker 1: and I see her sitting on the curb. People around
Speaker 1: her and I'm like, at least she's sitting and I'm
Speaker 1: seeing an ambulance take off and I realized that's John.
Speaker 1: You know, John's off, and I'm thinking of myself. Thank God,
Speaker 1: thank God, he's the one going off and she's not.
Speaker 1: So they put her in an ambulance. I get in
Speaker 1: a cop car, a policeman. He drove me to the
Speaker 1: hospital and they said I can't go in and see her.
Speaker 1: I called the family. Everyone's over there, all the kids,
Speaker 1: and we're just we're in shock, we're a mess. All
Speaker 1: of us were just crying and I just couldn't believe
Speaker 1: that this is her life. Anyway, Tara was interrogated until
Speaker 1: about ten, three at night. This happened at five, and
Speaker 1: they told me during this time frame, because I kept
Speaker 1: trying to go back to her, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: be with her. They said you're not going to get
Speaker 1: to see her tonight. It's going to be ours, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, she's my daughter, why can't? They said it's
Speaker 1: a crime scene and I hear somebody say something about
Speaker 1: the other person is d o, a dead on arrival,
Speaker 1: and they said, but he needs to be. He's John
Speaker 1: Doe Right now. He needs to be identified and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to leave my daughter and they said
Speaker 1: you have to, you have to go identify him. They
Speaker 1: took me over, walked in a private detective said he's
Speaker 1: Brain Dad. Basically, he's had many seizures. He was the
Speaker 1: last knife for one of the stabs went into his eye,
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, thank God, and how God has a
Speaker 1: way of working things out. At least he's gone, at
Speaker 1: least that nightmares over. But for Tera, you know, she's
Speaker 1: got ptsd and she's got to deal with everything now.
Speaker 1: Did he go over there that night to kill Tara?
Speaker 1: My honest opinion, I think that he was so enraged
Speaker 1: with me that I had been getting away, been getting
Speaker 1: winning in court and everything else, and he was so
Speaker 1: obsessed that what I think happened was he was going
Speaker 1: to kidnap her and it was a kidnap gone wrong
Speaker 1: because he had ties, he had the ZIP ties, he
Speaker 1: had rope, he had knives. I think it was a
Speaker 1: kidnap gone wrong. Tara doesn't agree with that, you know,
Speaker 1: and she she was the one that had happened to
Speaker 1: but in my eyes I think he wanted to get
Speaker 1: to her, to get me the period of time after
Speaker 1: an abusive relationship of any kind ends, domestic abuse or
Speaker 1: a relationship with someone who is obsessive and narcissistic, or
Speaker 1: a relationship with someone who's Psychopathic, that period can be
Speaker 1: the most dangerous and the most abusive. Narcissistic folks and
Speaker 1: folks with other toxic personalities do not like when they
Speaker 1: are no longer in control and they don't like it
Speaker 1: when they perceive that someone else is winning. This is
Speaker 1: something called post separation abuse and it can manifest as stalking, harassment,
Speaker 1: smear campaigns, threats and even threats against people or pets
Speaker 1: or things that matter to the person who is leaving. Obviously,
Speaker 1: DEBRAH's is a severe and horrific example of host separation abuse,
Speaker 1: but until people understand this, we run the risk of
Speaker 1: underplaying the danger of the time after a relationship ends,
Speaker 1: with law enforcement, judges and other systems just writing it
Speaker 1: off to people being angry that things didn't work out
Speaker 1: and just needing some time to cool off. No, this
Speaker 1: is much more than that and it is often why
Speaker 1: survivors feel stuck. They're scared, and rightfully so, that the
Speaker 1: abuse and control and menace within the relationship will get
Speaker 1: worse or dangerous if they leave. In the months after
Speaker 1: this happened, in the days after this happened, and then
Speaker 1: the weeks and months years, how are you feeling? First,
Speaker 1: you're in shock and of course I hadn't more. You know,
Speaker 1: it's your child and you're the one that dated this
Speaker 1: person and brought him into your life, in to everyone's life.
Speaker 1: So I had so much guilt. I'm sure. Oh, I
Speaker 1: just thought, but you know what, you don't go out
Speaker 1: on a date thinking this is going to be the outcome.
Speaker 1: You don't marry someone thinking that this is what's going
Speaker 1: to happen. This was the last thing I thought would happen.
Speaker 1: So I think the first six months was all about
Speaker 1: getting to help, getting her better, and I sort of
Speaker 1: ignored myself. It wasn't until I wrote my book that
Speaker 1: I really started the grieving process and the healing, and
Speaker 1: during that time frame I had to forgive myself. I
Speaker 1: had to look back at my life and realize the
Speaker 1: situations that I had been in really had formed sort
Speaker 1: of how I reacted to certain things. Being a peacemaker,
Speaker 1: being the pleaser, having these dreams, you know, the fairy tale,
Speaker 1: wanting love, wanting that family, you know, wanting the things
Speaker 1: that I think are very natural in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: But at the same time I needed to love myself,
Speaker 1: I needed to learn boundaries and I needed to actually
Speaker 1: learn red flags. What a narcissist was, what gaslighting was,
Speaker 1: what love bombing was. I really needed to educate myself
Speaker 1: to understand the dynamics of what had happened, what other
Speaker 1: women go through. Our session will continue after this break.
Speaker 1: You said I had to learn what boundaries were. What
Speaker 1: was interesting was two elements of you were coming together,
Speaker 1: the boundaries and the pleaser, and I think this happens
Speaker 1: for so many people. Right. You were setting boundaries. When
Speaker 1: he was being insistent, you'd say no. Replies on your bed,
Speaker 1: you say leave. He asked you to marry a thousand times.
Speaker 1: You say no, and then somebody pushes enough. You say
Speaker 1: yes because the pleaser and you almost was fighting with
Speaker 1: the boundaries center in you, and so I think it's
Speaker 1: very easy to say outset boundaries. It's an easy prescription, right,
Speaker 1: but we got to remember that that comes up against
Speaker 1: the sort of the rest of you, which is that
Speaker 1: pleasing part. I remember reading the story initially and I
Speaker 1: remember it so well. I remember where I lived and
Speaker 1: by the time I came to the story, all parts
Speaker 1: of the series were out on the L A times
Speaker 1: and the L A times. It was they and and
Speaker 1: they got it so wrong. Yet I read the story
Speaker 1: not knowing what the wrongness of it was. I'm reading
Speaker 1: it and as I'm going through it, I thought, how
Speaker 1: the no one's ever going to give this woman the
Speaker 1: help she needs, because I was already doing this work.
Speaker 1: No one's ever going to give her the help she needs.
Speaker 1: How does this story end before I get to the
Speaker 1: last episode of the last, you know, installment of the series?
Speaker 1: And then I read it and he dies. I remember
Speaker 1: the relief that flooded my body because I said there
Speaker 1: was no other ending of this story that was going
Speaker 1: to work. Be Has. Otherwise you or one of your
Speaker 1: children would have been killed. The reason it sat so
Speaker 1: hard for me was that in the vast majority of
Speaker 1: these cases, the John, the perpetrator, doesn't get killed, and
Speaker 1: the systems that don't give frustrating orders, that's say you
Speaker 1: don't have enough, that secret people away so they can't
Speaker 1: be served, and on and on, every system that repeatedly,
Speaker 1: and I mean repeatedly, fails survivors. I will guarantee you this, Deborah.
Speaker 1: He would have killed you. You and I would not
Speaker 1: be having you would have died. There's no way. The
Speaker 1: system fails us. Everybody began to tell you so. The
Speaker 1: only reason there was resolution here is because the perpetrator
Speaker 1: died under the most bizarre circumstances. All things being equal,
Speaker 1: his size versus terrorist size, all of those things, the
Speaker 1: way he completely caught her by surprise, the weaponry he
Speaker 1: had on his in his hands, she should have been
Speaker 1: the one who died. Do you understand what I'm saying
Speaker 1: that this story took this turn? I understand. This is
Speaker 1: why it's gotten everybody's attention. But so this, this story,
Speaker 1: is so important, but in a strange way. And this
Speaker 1: is how I felt when I after I finished with
Speaker 1: the podcast series in the early times, I thought, damn it,
Speaker 1: by having that be the ending, the systems aren't going
Speaker 1: to change, because what would what would end up happening,
Speaker 1: is that they're like, okay, well, this one's done. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's what they told me. Yes, they said, okay,
Speaker 1: he's dead, walk away, and I said no, because if
Speaker 1: it happened to me, you could happen to anybody and
Speaker 1: it's happening to people all over the place, regardless of
Speaker 1: gender's happens to men, this happens to women, you name
Speaker 1: it, it it happens there everyone. And those people, some of
Speaker 1: them will die right many of them will live in
Speaker 1: a lifelong sense of threatened trauma. It relates to something,
Speaker 1: a phenomenon called post separation abuse, and yours you had
Speaker 1: pre separation abuse, relationship abuse and post separation abuse. Can
Speaker 1: you talk to us very specifically, because I think to
Speaker 1: me what's troubling is the way the story came to
Speaker 1: the world, first the L A times and then the
Speaker 1: Bravo Netflix series. They didn't get it right. Now can
Speaker 1: you let us know what they didn't get right, because
Speaker 1: I think sometimes survivors see those stories and either will
Speaker 1: say my mayor debor is just foolish, or maybe people
Speaker 1: are gonna blame me telling stories incorrectly. In this space
Speaker 1: there's a real danger to it. We are, at one
Speaker 1: level being entertained by the pain of others. And listen,
Speaker 1: irony not lost on me. I'm here on a podcast
Speaker 1: talking to you and I'd like to think my goal
Speaker 1: is different, but everyone knows that I understand what I'm
Speaker 1: saying here. But if you tell the story it one way,
Speaker 1: it can feel, I don't know, almost more entertaining, as
Speaker 1: it were. But tell us what those stories got wrong.
Speaker 1: So many things. First of all, I don't think I'm
Speaker 1: this naive. I might be trusting, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 1: but I think that I'm fairly intelligent. They don't show
Speaker 1: sort of the steps that you start taking to protect
Speaker 1: yourself in the series or the podcast. I think the
Speaker 1: other thing is they portray each character in such a
Speaker 1: way that, for instance, Jacqueline, which is rony in the series, Jacqueline,
Speaker 1: she is, she can be extremely sweet and funny and
Speaker 1: everything else. They show her a sort of a bit entitled.
Speaker 1: Bit What happened with me was far worse than what
Speaker 1: they show when they start the series out, or the
Speaker 1: podcast for that matter. They don't realize that in the beginning, um,
Speaker 1: everything looks so wonderful, you know, and they don't realize
Speaker 1: that I'm already in. I'm already in. When when things
Speaker 1: really heat up in the series, I and into hiding.
Speaker 1: I think they show it so minimal that I went
Speaker 1: into hiding. They don't show the research, they don't show
Speaker 1: the threats, they don't show I guess they show the
Speaker 1: romance in the beginning, the first chapter, but they really
Speaker 1: don't dive into that. This man was good at what
Speaker 1: he did and had done it to many, many other women.
Speaker 1: I just don't feel they really portray us the right way.
Speaker 1: I think what's so important about what you're saying is
Speaker 1: when it was good, it was good, and I think
Speaker 1: that all of the stories were almost like you know that.
Speaker 1: Either the if it was the TV program like the
Speaker 1: doomi music and focusing on the fraid scrubs and all
Speaker 1: these sort of scary moments, and he didn't have fraid scrubs,
Speaker 1: by the way. So you see, that was over and
Speaker 1: over account the image was of the sort of fraid
Speaker 1: scrubs guy, right. That that sticks in my head and
Speaker 1: I think that the danger in that is it pushes
Speaker 1: people then to really view the survivor as foolish. Well,
Speaker 1: they are all these bad things. So how could you
Speaker 1: have liked this? You must be a masochist, right, versus
Speaker 1: very romantic, connected, enjoyable, like I said, Khan Man's con man,
Speaker 1: and so the that was a real experience to you.
Speaker 1: And by not portraying it that way and playing it
Speaker 1: only for the red flags we lose, and this is
Speaker 1: every survivor of narcissistic abuse, even when things are really
Speaker 1: going wrong, they'll say we still had a great weekend,
Speaker 1: we had a really nice holiday, and it confuses the
Speaker 1: hell out of people, because I agree with that. The
Speaker 1: whole portrayal of you was like here's a woman of
Speaker 1: a certain age and she's so desperate because I was
Speaker 1: going to date her. But that was the portrayal of you,
Speaker 1: and I remember reading the series and thinking, well, that's
Speaker 1: uncharitable that they would view her as well. She's got
Speaker 1: no other options, so she better lockdown on this one,
Speaker 1: even if there are some red flags, because who else
Speaker 1: is she going to get? That? It was I mean
Speaker 1: as from a feminist perspective alone, it was a very
Speaker 1: disrespectful kind of a stance, but it really portrayed you
Speaker 1: as somebody like, basically, this guy was like bringing weapon
Speaker 1: reach your house and you were like, Oh, I just
Speaker 1: want to be in love, and it wasn't that. Oh No.
Speaker 1: The other thing that really bothered me about it is
Speaker 1: there was a lot of victim blaming. Yes, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I'm the good person, he's the bad guy,
Speaker 1: don't they realize what a con artist does? Don't they
Speaker 1: realize how good they are? And for me, and I still,
Speaker 1: I think about two months ago, I still was getting
Speaker 1: calls about, Oh, I dated John, he sucked me in, Oh,
Speaker 1: I was in love with John, and they said he
Speaker 1: was good. Many of these women owned businesses, are fairly
Speaker 1: intelligent too. Had to leave the country. One had to
Speaker 1: change her name. Now. So he really harmed the damaged.
Speaker 1: He's damaged. Some of the women said they're still a
Speaker 1: mess over it and I said he's on. You know,
Speaker 1: take this time to heal, like o never you'll never
Speaker 1: forget it, but take this time to heal. In talking
Speaker 1: to these women who had been victimized by him, did
Speaker 1: they say that they did it help them that you
Speaker 1: told your story? Yes, very much so. A lot of
Speaker 1: women are embarrassed, you know, especially being successful, intelligent women.
Speaker 1: They said they were so embarrassed they couldn't tell anyone.
Speaker 1: The embarrassment of the survivor is such a phenomenon. That
Speaker 1: is a lot of it's how these stories get told
Speaker 1: over time and time again, the glorification of the psychopath
Speaker 1: and minorcissists. They must have a whole division at Netflix
Speaker 1: or something that developed shows like psychopath because it really
Speaker 1: is this glorification of glorification of psychopaths. Look at what
Speaker 1: look at how they conn this foolish person. That's it's
Speaker 1: literally a formulatic story, and these survivors aren't foolish. They
Speaker 1: believed what they were being told. So, unless we literally
Speaker 1: wanted to completely break will of trust and abuse them
Speaker 1: with a cynicism, maybe a little bit of cynicism is good,
Speaker 1: but not not as much as it would make it
Speaker 1: so that nobody ever trusts anyone can. And part of
Speaker 1: the reason they're, though, Deborra, is if you're foolish, then
Speaker 1: I'm safe because that's happened to you, because you'RE A
Speaker 1: and if you're an idiot, and I'll be fine because
Speaker 1: I'll be able to see this comment. That's dangerous because
Speaker 1: if I'm walking around thinking I'm going to be fine
Speaker 1: instead of saying I'm as vulnerable to a con man
Speaker 1: like this as anyone, then I'm going to go and
Speaker 1: thinking I'm all that and nothing's going to happen to me,
Speaker 1: and something might happen tonight. That's a real problem, because
Speaker 1: everyone else is taking your story and told it. I'm
Speaker 1: really happy to see that you took your story and
Speaker 1: are telling it yourself. So can you tell us about
Speaker 1: your new book? Well, it's called surviving dirty John and
Speaker 1: I worked with a great ghost writer and I basically
Speaker 1: started from my early beginning all the way through now,
Speaker 1: about the process of what happened. I wanted people to
Speaker 1: really know the truth. We also deal with talking about
Speaker 1: red flags and many other things that you need to
Speaker 1: look out for. You know, be curious to know that, though,
Speaker 1: given how successful this was for Bravo, for Netflix, for
Speaker 1: for the L A times right, that story was so successful,
Speaker 1: your book is successful too, in the sense that it's
Speaker 1: when it is winning the right okay, why do you
Speaker 1: think people are so obsessed with true crime? I'm curious
Speaker 1: that somebody was a focus on one of these stories,
Speaker 1: because I think it happens every day. Happens to their friends,
Speaker 1: it happens to them. I think it's pretty much we're
Speaker 1: raising awareness right now more than ever. So it's just
Speaker 1: a way to tell a story people are in some
Speaker 1: ways it does make the world seem like dangerous. Maybe
Speaker 1: it actually is. So congratulations on your award and thank
Speaker 1: you everyone. You want to read this book, Surviving Dirty John.
Speaker 1: I'm I really enjoyed it. I have to tell you,
Speaker 1: it was refreshing to hear the humanity in this story
Speaker 1: rather than a book that felt like it was like
Speaker 1: basically painting the picture of how could someone be so foolish?
Speaker 1: I thought, okay, this is her taking her story back.
Speaker 1: So everybody go read this book. If you actually do
Speaker 1: like true crime, go read evist book, because it's it's
Speaker 1: really it's great. It's a it's, I think, a better
Speaker 1: telling then the other stories were. So I hope lots
Speaker 1: of people read it because I think that it's it's
Speaker 1: also a fable of a survivor, which is what I
Speaker 1: think we need to hear more of. I want to
Speaker 1: ask you one last question, because I think it's something
Speaker 1: that listeners are going to want to know. Is Three
Speaker 1: of your children said they didn't like him. Okay, all
Speaker 1: the things happened, that happened, and then something so terrible
Speaker 1: that it was almost unfathomable happened. You said you felt
Speaker 1: a lot of guilty this idea that your kids said no, no, bad, bad.
Speaker 1: You went ahead with it anyhow and then a terrible
Speaker 1: thing happened. How did that play out for you? Psychologically horrible?
Speaker 1: My kids. In my world. We're all good now good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think they realized who I am as a person
Speaker 1: and and how I was as a mom, and the
Speaker 1: relationships that we had prior to John were fabulous. So
Speaker 1: I'm close to all of them. Tara probably speaks out
Speaker 1: the most because of obviously she's the one that probably
Speaker 1: was affected the most. Yeah, I just had everyone over
Speaker 1: for dinner the other day and I think that life
Speaker 1: for me. I just appreciate the family so much more
Speaker 1: than I ever had. I mean that's a good outcome.
Speaker 1: But this, this was a case where we actually, which
Speaker 1: we rarely see at the end of narcissism stories, was justice. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: it had to be in a completely twisted way, which
Speaker 1: harmed terra, which harmed you your family. Yet it did
Speaker 1: land in a place where like, okay, these people can
Speaker 1: now these go through the world saying safe, and until
Speaker 1: this happened, nobody John had harmed before could have safely
Speaker 1: gone through the world. And so it wasn't just you
Speaker 1: and your family, there were other people harmed by him.
Speaker 1: We're able to be saying yeah, here are my takeaways
Speaker 1: from my conversation with Deborah. While I have shared this
Speaker 1: before on this podcast. I don't think it can be
Speaker 1: said enough the post separation period in a relationship with
Speaker 1: a narcissistic or psychopathic person is the most dangerous. The
Speaker 1: obsessiveness control, need to win and the need for power
Speaker 1: and domination that is part and parcel of these personality
Speaker 1: types means that when a person in one of these
Speaker 1: relationships slowly starts to distance or leave, the abuse will
Speaker 1: start to escalate. It is this reason that many people
Speaker 1: don't leave and then feel shame at not leaving or
Speaker 1: staying in such an unhealthy relationship. Deborah has myriad resources
Speaker 1: available to her and the post separation phase was still
Speaker 1: deeply terrifying and untenable. For folks with fewer resources it
Speaker 1: can be impossible. Working with a therapist, domestic abuse programs
Speaker 1: or other advocacy programs can be essential to create the
Speaker 1: safest options for you, and also a reminder that staying
Speaker 1: because you are afraid of the post separation behavior is
Speaker 1: not a weakness. In some cases, there may be few
Speaker 1: other options. It's important that survivors remember to tell their
Speaker 1: own stories. Deborah story got retold by others who turned
Speaker 1: the narrative into the usual. Who would fall for that?
Speaker 1: Why didn't you leave? How could you be so naive?
Speaker 1: Blaming rhetoric, she sat down and ultimately wrote her own
Speaker 1: book and took her story back. You can tell your
Speaker 1: own story as well. I am more and more memoirs, blogs,
Speaker 1: essays and emails about People's survivorship in their own words.
Speaker 1: Whether the world here's your story or not, whether you
Speaker 1: share it in therapy or on paper, write your story
Speaker 1: from your perspective, informed by the reality of how challenging
Speaker 1: these relationships are. Don't let someone else tell that story
Speaker 1: for you and tell your story without blaming yourself. Deborah's
Speaker 1: story hit me personally and raise that chronic sense of
Speaker 1: helplessness that comes up in stories about narcissistic and toxic
Speaker 1: relationship abuse. In some ways her story provided a sort
Speaker 1: of closure and finality and in a twisted way it
Speaker 1: felt like there was some kind of justice, because most
Speaker 1: stories of narcissistic abuse have no kind of justice. Think
Speaker 1: about it. In all of John's prior relationships, the women
Speaker 1: he was with were left devastated and scared, while he
Speaker 1: just blithely went forward to his next target and a
Speaker 1: new life. Too often the narcissistic person just goes into
Speaker 1: their new future shares a false narrative about their past
Speaker 1: and about their past relationships, while the person they harm
Speaker 1: has to struggle and live with the fallout of narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 1: Perhaps it's a reminder that the lack of justice can
Speaker 1: be a real impediment to healing, and obviously the circumstances
Speaker 1: of John's death created tremendous trauma within Deborah's family. But
Speaker 1: the fact is, closure and narcissistic relationships can feel pretty rare.
Speaker 1: A big thank you to our executive producers, Jada Pinkett Smith,
Speaker 1: Valan Jethrow, Ellen racketty and Dr Rominey de Vassela, and
Speaker 1: thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara
Speaker 1: Dela Rosa and consultant Kelly ebling. And finally, thank you
Speaker 1: to our editors and sound engineers, Devin Donnaghe and Calvin bailiff.