WEBVTT - TikTok Part 2: The Silent Force from China 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 John Poyt Bolton is one of those guys who never 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.280 wanted to work at a big company because he likes 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:08.560 the energy that comes with working at a startup. And 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.080 back in things were looking pretty good for John. He 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.120 was an executive at Flipogram. It's an app that lets 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.799 people stitch together photos and music to make little montages 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.799 for social media. We were just cruising at Flipogram. We 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.000 thought we were going to be the next Instagram because 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:29.840 the numbers we had were just staggering. And you know 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.040 what happens when you get big in the startup world, 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.120 either you get really really big and you go public 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.960 or you get acquired. And John was hoping Flipogram might 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:41.880 get bought by a big name tech company like Apple 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:47.120 or Facebook. I mean, if Facebook wanted Instagram, why not Flipogram. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:50.040 But instead, the buyer that came calling was a company 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.320 in China that John had never heard of, called byte Dance. 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.240 The first time it came up, you know, like a 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:01.800 Chinese tech company, Like, we were like no, we were disappointed, 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.760 um because you know, we hadn't heard of it. We 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.720 you know, we were hoping for some big exit to 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.880 to a Facebook or you know, we wanted a high 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.200 profile company, you know, and yeah, and so to have 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.720 a Chinese tech company that we never heard of was 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:21.040 not exciting. But this was a company that acquired Flipogram. 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.800 Bye Dance had money to spend and they wanted to 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.080 have a bigger presence in the US. They also wanted 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.640 Flipogram because of the music deals it had with major 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:33.959 record labels. After the acquisition went through, the CEO of 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.240 Bye Dance flew to l A to check out the 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.840 American company he had just purchased. And I think it 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:44.640 was December when Yiming, the CEO By Dance, came to 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:49.760 our office and uh he told us about by Dance, 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:52.480 and I just remember him showing some of the data 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.280 and the products, and you know, I was like, oh, wow, 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:59.320 this is this isn't some unknown little Chinese tech company, 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.640 this is this thing is massive, This is really interesting. 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.720 Bye Dance was massive. They were valued at ten billion 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:11.720 dollars in and they had just raised a huge funding 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.880 ground from some major VC firms with one goal in mind. 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.880 I think they were trying to get a real footholds 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.639 in the United States and and you know, we're really 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.600 trying to branch out of China and Though the Flipogram 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.120 team was impressed by the size and scope of Bye 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:30.320 Dance by Dances, CEO John Uming brought along something else 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.880 to sweeten the deal. I think it was almost the 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.080 Chinese New Year, and so they had handed out, you know, 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:39.280 red envelopes with with cash in it, and I thought, well, 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.160 that's a that's a good start. I guess it's customary 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:45.839 in China to give small cash gifts during the New Year. 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:48.520 But it's so funny to me that Bye Dances paying 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.919 millions of dollars to acquire Flipogram, and the thing John 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:54.760 remembers is the fifty bucks he got in the red envelope. 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.480 Flipp Agram was not the first or the last startup 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.120 that Bye Dance would acquire, because a year and a 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.760 half later, Bye Dance buys a lip sinking app called Musically, 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:09.000 meaning overnight, by Dance goes from having almost no presence 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.640 in the US to having over a hundred million American users, 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.840 and the Musically acquisition was the basis for Bye dances 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:24.880 most famous product, TikTok. I'm Shelley Banjo. You're listening to Foundering. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.080 In the previous episode, we told you about Musically and 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:33.519 its eccentric founder Alex jew Musically is important because it 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.080 served as a blueprint for TikTok. The apps even look similar, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.200 and many of the Baby Musically users would grow up 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.360 to become stars on TikTok. But TikTok's global scale, it's 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.960 insane popularity, it's advanced algorithms. Well, that's all thanks to 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.680 Byte Dance. This episode will tell you the story of 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:57.120 Bye Dances Rise, It's ambitious CEO, John y Ming, and 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.520 how it grew to become the biggest startup in the 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:14.240 world after a quick break by Dances. Founder Johnny Ming 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.640 is not a household name, but he's fundamentally changed the 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.560 way people consume media on their phones. He's basically outplayed 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:25.560 Mark Zuckerberg and Evan Spiegel at their own game. John 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.960 says he was really surprised by Johnny Ming's personality when 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.960 they first met. Founders tend to be you know, loud 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:38.880 or you know, bullish or big personalities, overly charismatic, and uh, 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.640 you know, he just didn't have any of that. Quiet 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.680 and humble and and you know, always bowing in a 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.200 way and you know, very un American in a way, 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.279 right like, and that for someone to have created something 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.800 so compelling and so successful, and to carry yourself like that, 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.360 I think is actually a testament of character. Johnny Ming 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.960 was born in i teen eight three. He's the only 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:05.880 son of two government workers. He grew up in Fujian Province, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.800 which is a coastal region in China where some of 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:11.760 the first private companies popped up when China started opening 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.480 up to the world. E Main studied software engineering at 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.839 Nankai University and was invited back to his alma mater 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:23.159 in sixteen to talk to the incoming freshman students. He 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.200 told them that making friends didn't come naturally to him, 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.960 so he relied on his love of computers to help 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.360 get him through college. So I put it, you can 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:36.920 put the taint. How did I socialize as a science 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.799 student who didn't usually participate in group activities. I mainly 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.800 relied to my interest in repairing computers. I helped classmates 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:49.400 choose components and assembled dozens of computers. Of course, a 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.440 lot of them were for female classmates. Repairing computers has 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:55.920 led to some of the great achievements in my life. 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.040 I met my girlfriend at the time, who is my wife. Now. 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:10.680 When I fixed the computer, you take a stuff. Uh well, 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.120 if that's not true love, then really what is? The 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.839 Means said he was bookish and quiet. He kept to 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:23.159 himself even in college when the other students who are 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.279 playing video games and card games. I spent that time 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:30.440 reading books. And I wasn't just reading books and computer programming. 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:35.000 I was looking at different biographies, local and international newspapers 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:40.080 and magazines. He means love of biographies is a detail 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:43.720 that really sticks out for me. It's something he mentions frequently. 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:49.920 Would face on that list. I have to say, biographies 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.760 work almost like a sort of chicken soup for the soul. 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.279 And I've read a lot of biographies. I learned that 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:00.279 many successful people seemed to lead ordinary lives. Four have 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:04.839 you achieved great success? The actions looked insignificant at the time, 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.280 but in the end, the dots connect and you can 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:12.920 see the arc of the success. It's fun to imagine, 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.040 you mean, as a college student spending his time fixing 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:20.800 computers and just devouring these biographies, he studied the lives 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.640 of these towering figures closely. I think that's because he 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.320 yearned to build something great, just like the men and 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.160 women in the books. Years later, after Bite Dance, had 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.960 already gotten pretty big. I visited its Beijing headquarters for 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.880 some interviews, and I remember seeing these oversized posters of 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:43.080 book covers hanging on their office walls. They were biographies 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:47.840 of legendary American tech founders like Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos. 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.080 I found it so unusual. I snapped some pictures and 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.800 sent them to my editor. It's not every day you 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.200 see an oversized photo of Jeff bezos face hanging from 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.680 the walls of a Chinese company. I mean mentions this 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.840 again during his first interview with Western Media. My colleague 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:09.800 Peter Elstrom sat down with him in TV. Notice heming 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.800 only brings up American tech founders. This is role models, 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.920 not say a Chinese founder like Ali Baba's Jack Ma. 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.840 But I read quite a lot of story about Bill 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.840 Gates while I was young, and Steve Jobs and what's 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:28.080 nek well I graduated, uh graduate from university. I paid 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.920 quite a lot of attention to Amazon and Facebook. I 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.080 get two things out of this tape. One he means 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.600 not just some engineer who only cares about code. He's 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.600 paying attention to how businesses are running. And two, he's 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.520 got his eyes on the competition I paid attention to 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:49.200 Facebook from two thousand and six, so I think they 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.240 start company into Southerland four and I graduated to Southland five. 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.680 Notice how he emphasizes his attention to Facebook because a 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.080 few years after this interview, Meming Company would post the 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:05.040 biggest threat Facebook had ever seen. And here he's saying 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.640 that he was tracking Facebook closely, almost a decade before 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.440 bye Dance even existed. After college, I mean became a 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.760 software engineer. He worked at a bunch of startups and 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.560 did a brief stint at Microsoft, but quit because he 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.480 said it was too boring. Yeah, I disiplated several in 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:28.200 several stops. Most such engine companies or social network companies. 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:34.240 I think, oh for companies before our studies company in 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.640 He founded byte Dance out of a Beijing apartment when 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:40.760 he was twenty nine years old. His first product was 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.360 a mobile app that showed you jokes, and it was 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.839 really simple. You see a joke or a funny meme 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:47.760 pop up on your phone and you give it a 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.640 thumbs up or a thumbs down. The concept seemed pretty basic, 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.480 but it was the foundation for all of byte Dance's 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.480 future products. First, they figured out what makes each person laugh. 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.160 Then as the comp and expanded into news and video, 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.880 they were learning what individual users wanted to read and watch. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:10.079 They were collecting reams and reams of data. Here's Lugen, 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.440 a former senior executive at Bite Dance in nineteen um. 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.400 So the company was actually founded, I think, with the 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:23.480 very simple purpose of connecting information people in a new way, 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.839 in a mobile way. Then later on we um addam 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.280 not only news but all formats of content, a variety 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:35.560 of contents, you know, funny jokes, entertainment. Later she would 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:39.040 like in the artificial intelligence behind the app to a child. 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.439 She told me. It takes time to build up the 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.920 child's intelligence, but once you do, they'll grow up to 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.040 be a super smart adult, capable of more and more things. 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.080 The technology that Eiming developed for the Joke's app would 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.040 fuel the rise of the company's next hit product, Tota, 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.920 a Chinese newsreader that would make Bite Dance ubiquitous across 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.920 China and catch the attention of venture capitalists around the world. 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.319 Let me try to convey to you just how big 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.080 Tokyo is in China. It's been downloaded more than seven 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.280 dred million times, the closest comparison in the US is 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.560 probably Google News, but Toteo is a much bigger deal 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.800 because for lots of folks in China, Tokyo has become 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.000 the only place they get the news. They've abandoned other 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.240 newspapers and media websites, which are largely controlled by the 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:33.320 Chinese government. Tokyo delivers a totally different experience. AI algorithms 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.280 pick and choose the articles you see based on your 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:40.559 preferences and personality, and that gives By Dance deep insight 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.200 into the minds of its users. Here's an interview with 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:51.120 you mean during a tech event in Shanghai Yo. What 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.000 if the day comes when Bye Dance knows me better 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.280 than my own husband? Are you worried about that that 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.319 there might be an app that understands you bader than 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:07.320 the people around you. Computer algorithms are getting smarter and smarter, 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:13.120 but very essentially simple and pure. How can I be 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.440 sure that the algorithm will remain simple and pure when 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.959 you're the guy behind the machines, well, I am also 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:26.520 very pure. Who can guarantee that they will stay pure? Honestly, 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:30.400 computers are basically simple and pure. A lot of people 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.080 worry that computers might become monsters and do evil things, 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:39.240 but honestly, computers break everything into small steps that people 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.560 observe and control. I think we probably don't have to 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.760 worry about computers, and maybe we should worry more about people. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.120 I've never heard a CEO talk about his pure intentions 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:56.160 on TV. It's kind of bizarre. But the other thing 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.839 that's interesting here is that the news anchor is really 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.640 pushing him on deep day AATA mining and his apparent 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.560 disregard for user privacy, and heman kind of laughs it off. 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.360 He says he really believes in the purity of the 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:12.679 technology and of his own good intentions. It's funny to 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.720 listen to this tape all these years later, because the 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:20.600 biggest controversy around TikTok basically boils down to this what 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.040 are they doing with all the user data they've collected, 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.640 and as China's government have access to data from Americans. 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.760 Even now, ey Ming has maintained that all these fears 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.560 over national security are unfounded, and his message has been 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.800 pretty consistent. He's essentially saying, I'm a good guy and 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:42.680 I built a good product. You can trust me. Ming 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.440 is now one of the richest people in China. But 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.480 when he started his company, his success was anything but 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.520 assured because he was coming up during a boom time 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.600 for the Chinese tech industry. Competition was cut throat and 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:57.480 it was hard to know which companies were going to 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.640 flop and which ones would hit it big. You're watching 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:02.720 history from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.480 America's money mecca. Ali Baba will in fact be the 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:10.520 largest I p O in history. This is a profitable company. 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:13.080 It's a very very profitable company. And that's you know, 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:14.560 a lot of these I p o s are not. 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.920 A percent of Americans had no idea what Ali Baba was. 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:20.880 And you're talking about the biggest I p O in 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.280 U S history. Bigger than Visa, bigger than Twitter, bigger 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:28.440 than Facebook. This company is massive. That euphoria spiked in 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:32.960 September when Ali Baba listed on the New York Stock Exchange. 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:37.080 It was worth twenty five billion dollars and investors started 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.120 searching for the next Ali Baba, the next Chinese success story. 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.360 Around that time, you mean hopped on a plane to 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.040 California with a group of other young Chinese founders that 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.000 were I in the US market. There, they toured the 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:55.200 halls of hot Silicon Valley tech companies like Facebook, Google, Tesla, 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.040 and you Mean became convinced that a Chinese tech entrepreneur 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.280 like himself could compete with the Googles and facebooks of 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.800 the world. Eming even gave a speech at a conference 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.720 held on Facebook's Menlo Park campus about China's growing texting. 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:15.840 He called his presentation the Future of Information. During his speech, 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.000 he laid out a roadbap for his vision of social media. 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.960 He told the audience, we aggregate as much data as 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:27.760 possible and analyze every action from each user. I see 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.840 this is really foreboding. Eming went into Facebook's office and 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.880 gave them a peek into his own aggressive tactics. It 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.560 was like an early warning of what was to come. 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:49.880 We'll be right back. In China, the tech industry is 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.960 dominated by just two companies, Ali Baba and Tencent, and 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.120 they have lots of money. And one thing about China 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.520 is that, unlike the US, there wasn't a well established 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:04.560 system of venture capital, so Ali Baba and Tencent essentially 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.640 act as the vcs. They funneled billions to startups to 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:10.680 get a piece of what's coming and to head off 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.840 the competition. So if you're a hot tech startup like 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:17.320 Bye Dance, It's basically understood you'll choose one side or 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.160 the other, Ali Baba or ten Cent. For Bye Dance, 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.280 it was ten Cent that came calling. They approached you 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.120 mean to invest in his company, but you being made 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:31.240 a very unusual move. He turned the money down. Ballet 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.560 tin Atala. Earlier this year there was news that ten 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.240 Cent was interested in buying a stake and Bye Dance 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.360 and that you turned down the investment. Do you go? 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.440 When that news came out, a colleague told me he 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.080 didn't join by Dance to become a tense Cent employee, 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:51.520 and I told him I didn't found by Dance to 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.160 become a ten Cent employee either. It's not to say 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.560 we have a problem with working with ten Cent or 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:01.680 competing with Tencent or what I want is that we 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.160 become a company that builds a platform that adds value 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.520 to society, and that we do that by ourselves. That 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.680 was you mean? Speaking on CCTV in you can hear 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.000 the pride in his voice as he says he didn't 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.880 want to be beholden to anyone, even if it meant 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.560 turning down the money. He wanted to run by Dance 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.119 his own way. So as far as your own business goes, 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.760 are you running it as a democracy or a dictatorship? 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.879 I think there's a fine line. Internally, everyone in the 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.880 company is pretty equal. You can all communicate and express 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.880 our opinions when the CEO makes a decision. You shouldn't 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.760 make other people feel afraid to speak out. That's the 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.879 bottom line. You need to make sure of that, otherwise 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:48.680 you miss out an important information. Ideally, you'll left opportunities 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.399 to learn, and you can afford to make mistakes along 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.120 the way, and you can share the opportunities with your 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.920 team members so they have the agency to make their 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.720 own decisions. That was he mean on a Chinese talk 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.920 show in it sounds like he's modeling his business after 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.600 an American company rather than a Chinese One. Part of 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.000 that is because he took money and advice from American 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.880 and foreign VC firms, many of them in Silicon Valley. 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.600 By Dance even looks like a futuristic Silicon Valley office. 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.800 It's built out of a converted airplane hangar, so it's 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.800 an expanse of space. There are few walls, no real offices, 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.080 just rows and rows of engineers, staring at computer screens. 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:35.280 Ming also tried to subvert China's corporate culture, which tends 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.720 to be pretty hierarchical. It's common for employees in China 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:43.159 to refer to their managers by their formal titles. So hypothetically, 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.359 if Facebook were a Chinese company, Mark Zuckerberg might be 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.480 referred to as teacher Zuckerberg or boss Zuckerberg. But Eming 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.400 broke with that tradition in the office. He went by 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.879 classmate Eming, and in fact he had everyone referred to 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.280 one another as classmates to create a sense of equality 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:08.280 in the office. By Dance has a flat company structure. 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:10.600 The atmosphere is that you and your leader just call 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:12.480 each other by name, and you don't have to refer 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.679 to him as so and so teacher or so and 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.280 so boss. I think that's a good thing, because that's 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.320 sort of formality is pretty inhibiting. So when we were 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.120 talking about certain issues, we were really just addressing those 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.640 issues rather than feeling restricted by the differences in our rank. 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:33.560 I think By Dances flat structure helped are brutual. This 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.719 employee joined by Dance in when she was in her 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:42.040 mid twenties. She asked to remain anonymous into the scene. 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:44.840 Kind of economy in the past few years has had 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:48.000 its ups and downs and lots of uncertainty, but I 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.680 felt like Byte Dance was a different world. It only 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.760 had ups. You have infinite stuff to do and infinite 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:57.320 businesses to explore. I was so happy when I first joined. 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:00.560 The atmosphere was so energetic and the future felt good. 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.399 I could learn lots of stuff, and I remember just 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:10.840 feeling super pumped every day. This By Dance employee did 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:14.119 product research at the company. She says Huming was different 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.520 from other Chinese tech founders. Guys like Ali Baba's Jack 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:21.480 Maa were loud and pretty self important. In contrast, Aiming 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:28.440 was quiet, understated, and what strikes me the most about 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.399 him is that he's not someone who stands out. He 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.720 dresses really casually and he just doesn't have a strong presence. 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:37.879 He's not like I need three bodyguards and forces stems 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:41.240 to follow me around. He's low key in group settings, 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.440 and when slunchtime and a bunch of people squeeze into 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:46.919 the elevator, he'll just stand there and wait for the 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:50.200 next one. He's really good at fading into the background. 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.040 I've had like four different people tell me that at 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.320 first glance they misstook himing for a low level engineer. 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.320 He chew up to work in jeans at tatters Butcher 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.280 and his wire room glasses. He'd sit in the common 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.320 space and code on his computer. Sometimes he'd wear a 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:10.440 baseball cap pulled down really low. Here's John. You would 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:12.879 not know who the founder of the company was in 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:16.800 no way. Um and and I remember I was working 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:21.240 with a group and in at some tables, and you 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.280 know Yaman was over there at his desk the whole time, 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.439 working by himself. But even though you means strive to 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.960 create a casual work environment, employees say working at Bye 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:35.400 Dance was incredibly draining, intense. It was far more fast 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:39.240 paced and frenzied than at other companies. The employee we 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:41.920 interviewed said she burnt out after less than a year. 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:47.639 After a while, the excitement I felt disappeared, and I 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:50.320 started to feel like a worker on his subly line. 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.359 Every day. You entered the offices early, and when you 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.120 leave it's already dark. I didn't even know what time 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:59.080 it was because we sat on an open office floor 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:01.320 where the lights were always on and there was always 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.400 someone still at the office. The only way I could 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:06.639 tell the changing of the seasons was by observing the 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.000 leaves on the trees. When I first started, the trees 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:13.639 were green, Then the leaves were turning yellow. Then some 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:17.160 more time passed and the tree branches were bare. There's 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:19.720 a neighborhood nearby, and if I knocked off early, like 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.280 around seven or eight at night, I saw little kids 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.399 running around. I was jealous of them. They looked so 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:29.840 free and so relaxed. Leaving the office at eight at 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.159 night was considered early to her. Because people described China's 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:37.159 work culture as people are working from nine am to 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:41.400 nine pm, six days a week. Work hours are definitely insane, 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:44.600 There's no question about that. I think. I remember. The 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:46.679 funniest things that one said is they're like the hours 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.119 are actually they actually really respect work like balance here, 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:50.560 Like we only worked six days a week, and I 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:54.040 was like what, And then then like Saturdays the mandatory 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:56.520 basically and um. And then the second thing they were 0:22:57.000 --> 0:23:00.879 we only have the stage and I was like, in 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.720 no universes that the case in the West. This person 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:07.280 worked with big name Silicon Valley companies for decades. He 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:09.880 spoke to me on the condition of anonymity, but this 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:12.760 is his real voice. He served as an advisor to 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.399 Bite Dance, helping them devise a plan to take on 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.640 Facebook and YouTube. I man China is here to win, 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.040 are they not. I'd say the thing that was different 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:24.440 about them versus the other company companies based in China 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:27.840 interacted with is this one felt more like a Google 0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:30.639 Silicon Valley like company than the others. It's one of 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:32.520 the reasons. You know, they're able at by Dance to 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.439 like turn out features so so so quickly. Um and 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:37.480 the Chinese are known for copying, but like Bye Dances 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:40.719 is a different level of velocity UM. But like like 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:43.320 they're like material features that they could turn out within 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:46.240 weeks that would take another company months. Turning out new 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.800 features in a matter of weeks sounds almost superhuman. But 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.640 again that goes back to the intense work culture at 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:56.240 Byte Dance, which starts at the top. Lu Gen, the 0:23:56.320 --> 0:24:00.240 senior executive at Byte Dance, work closely with Giming for years. 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:03.320 She said he's such a workaholic that he even travels 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:06.160 to other countries when there's a holiday in China because 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.240 he doesn't want to stop working. You know, sometimes when 0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:12.399 it's a China holiday that email will say, let's go 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:15.480 to the US, because you know he's training here. Every 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:18.480